Hello listeners, and welcome back to The Science of Self, where you Improve your Life from the Inside Out. Today's guest is Jonathan Gluck, author of The New Book Coming Out and Exercise In Uncertainty. John, take a minute, introduce yourself to our listeners, and then we'll explore the book and some other things that we'll have to talk about.
Jon Gluck:Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Uh, my name is Jonathan Gluck. Uh, I was a long time magazine editor, uh, worked at magazines like New York Magazine and Vogue. And, uh, I've also been a cancer patient for the last 20 plus years, uh, and I've written a memoir about my experience, uh, as you noted, called an exercise in uncertainty. And, uh, that's what we're here to talk about today.
Russell:when I think of Vogue, the first thing that comes to mind is, uh, uh, the movie The Devil Wears Prada, and what it presents there as far as the backside of, uh, magazine productions. Like, tell us something about, How might that relate to, um, a regular, I don't know what a regular business would be, but maybe a, um, how would you describe that work?
Jon Gluck:Yeah, it was, uh, exciting and fun. Uh, you know, I really enjoyed, um, you know, uh, working on stories that either informed people or educated or, uh, entertained or inspired them. Um, uh. That was always something I've enjoyed doing even from a young age. I was the editor of my high school newspaper and, uh, got interested in journalism pretty early on in my life. Um, and uh, the interesting thing about New York Magazine is I live here in New York also, so in addition to being a great place to work, it also helped me sort of enjoy my life in the city more because was, you know, early to know a lot of things about what was going on here. So that was. Uh, good on both personal and professional level. And as far as Vogue goes, uh, you know, Vogue is, uh, obviously the world's leading fashion magazine, but they also publish a lot of terrific journalism. And I worked more on the story side of things than on the fashion spread side of things. uh, no, it's not like a Devil Wears Prada. Um, it's, you know, full of a lot of lovely people and smart people and, uh, it was something I really enjoyed.
Russell:sounds like a very high pressures.
Jon Gluck:It could be, yeah. Um, deadline pressure, uh, especially at New York Magazine, which was a weekly magazine with a daily website. Uh, and, uh, Vogue was a monthly magazine, then also had a daily website. they launched eventually. Um, so yeah, they were both, uh, they could both be high pressure jobs, but, um, also really exciting, you know, with that kind of, uh, you know, uh, deadline pressure and the pressure to produce high level work, um, does come a certain amount of anxiety. Um, but also, uh, a really high reward when you publish something that strikes a chord or that people really benefit from in one way or another.
Russell:I imagine as an editor you would run across a huge variety of stories and information, be exposed to all sorts of various, uh, pieces of information and, and people and so forth.
Jon Gluck:Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, during my career I've worked on everything from stories about, uh, the Exxon Valdez oil spill and, uh, abuses in the, Orthodox Jewish community, um, to stories about carts and pizza and, uh, you know, just enjoying life in New York City. So. You know, I've run the whole gamut. Uh, and frankly, I enjoy both, you know, uh, some of the more serious stories, for lack of a better and some of the more just fun and enjoyable stories. You know, I think a lot, there's been a lot of talk in my business over the last, you know, couple of decades about what we call high low, high-minded material and maybe less high-minded material and that people really enjoy both. You know, there was a time where. ago when people sort of had the attitude, uh, publishers had the attitude that the two didn't go together. Uh, and now it seems like we are, we've long since passed that point. and you know, people are comfortable reading a story of one sort right next to a story of the other
Russell:great Hilo. I like the contrast. Yeah, you need to have both of 'em. You can't have consistently serious conversations without having a break and letting the mind relax and approach a different side of things. okay. Another, well, we'll stay on the low side for a second here because you mentioned, pizza, New York or Chicago.
Jon Gluck:Ah,
Russell:Ah,
Jon Gluck:wow. Uh, I'm gonna say, uh, New York for traditional and Chicago for Deep Dish.
Russell:dish. I'll accept that. I'm from Chicago.
Jon Gluck:I lived there for four years, so I,
Russell:great.
Jon Gluck:would hardly call myself a connoisseur, but I am, uh, not unknowledgeable either.
Russell:you use the phrasing, you are a, you are a cancer patient. I found that interesting. It almost sounded like, alcoholics Anonymous. as far as it's a continuous thing. It's not something, and I know it's a completely different. approach. but tell us why you use that phrase. just either from the emotional side, if that's what it is, or if it's still, I imagine you still have scans and tests on a regular basis, so there's some, practical side of it too, can you expound on that phrase a little bit that you're still a cancer patient?
Jon Gluck:Yeah, that's one of the main, uh, points of the book actually, is that we, there are a group of us, um, who, and it's a growing group, who are surviving longer and longer with cancers that are not curable, but that are treatable. So. Just to be clear, because it's something that people really aren't used to hearing about or knowing and don't know a ton about. Um, I'm not talking about people who are diagnosed with cancer and are cured and are therefore considered cancer survivors. Um, and I'm not talking about people sadly get a cancer diagnosis and there is no treatment or cure and. know, they, um, pass on. Unfortunately, um, the group that I'm in is a middle group. sort of been calling US cancer zombies, not because we're half dead and half alive, but because we're half sick and half well, um, in that we will never be cured of our particular form of cancer. Um, but it is treatable. So. In my case, what's that meant? What that has meant is on many occasions now, over the past, uh, 20 plus years, I've gone in and out of remission. So I get sick, there's a treatment, I do that treatment, whether it's radiation therapy or chemotherapy or Immunotherapy, or whatever the case may be. then I am. Hopefully in remission for a period of time if the treatment works. Some of them have, some of them haven't. Um, hopefully I'm in remission for a long time. Uh, in some cases that's been true. I've been in remissions for as long as seven years. In other cases, uh, remissions have been much shorter. Uh, and then I get the next treatment and hopefully that puts me into remission and so on. Uh, so. Uh, that's been the pattern and that's why I refer to myself as a cancer patient and not a cancer survivor because I haven't been cured of my disease and I almost certainly never will be. Um, so yeah, that's the explanation for that.
Russell:for that Um, so incurable is not terminal. a lot of times, I think even when I read your, bio, an incurable bone marrow malignancy, I think most people would see incurable and terminal as, synonymous, but that's certainly not the case. It's an interesting point.
Jon Gluck:Yeah, I would say technically speaking, uh, terminal means there are no more treatments, uh, and, uh. Nothing more doctors can do other than than maybe extend your life briefly, uh, and certainly, administer what they call palliative care, which is
Russell:is
Jon Gluck:making sure you're free of pain and whatnot. Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's the difference there is that is that incurable cancers cancers can be in some cases and not in other cases, uh, terminal cancers are not treatable.
Russell:I, I will say this on a, a more personal level. My prayers and thoughts are to you. Uh. For the tremendous difficulty that must present to you physically and emotionally to go through those kind of treatments on a recurring basis. And, uh, if, if I or my listeners can extend any good wishes or prayers for you in the future, that is certainly something that would be high on my list. No, it, it is just very emotional for me because of a recent family history even, um, to know that you're struggling, maybe I, let me take those thoughts and go with it for a minute. Gimme a chance to recover because I, I'm, I'm really emotional on this point. I
Jon Gluck:Yeah, I understand. I mean, one of the interesting things about the last 20 years is that, you know, whenever I talk about these issues, if it's privately or I've written about my story, uh, in essays and magazines or newspapers, um, I. You know, everybody has a cancer story. Pretty much. You know, people will say to me uh, you know, um, thank you for that. It, you've helped, you know, articulate things that I've thought about before and it helps me realize I am not alone going through this. Um, or that my mother or father or sister or brother, aunt or uncle, uh, partner or spouse is going through it. And obviously it's very gratifying to me if I can help in any way. Um, and certainly I'd extend the same wishes right back to you, Russell. Whatever you and your family are going through, I wish you obviously the best with it. It's, it's not a fun ride.
Russell:with the understanding that our, our listeners are generally, Young adult, early business age people, they are interested in self-help, self-improvement, information and your life experiences. Can you, can you give us a little more, maybe an outline of the book in particular that, by the way, that's coming up for release in, uh, a week or so? Is that correct?
Jon Gluck:That's right. June 10th. Yes.
Russell:June 10th. Mark your calendars for that. The book will be available. for our listeners that are interested in self-improvement, what can your book bring to us obviously the story is compelling, but actionable advice is a phrase we use on the podcast what can our listeners hope to find from your book in those regards?
Jon Gluck:That's a great question. I mean, I really tried to do two things with the book. One is simply tell my story, um, and the second is to offer exactly the kind of lessons, if you want to call it that, life lessons or perspective that you're talking about and that you and your listeners are interested in. So I'll share a couple thoughts about that. One is, uh, I did quite a bit of research on the subject of uncertainty and coping with uncertainty and. Uh, one of the people I spoke to is a woman named Kate Sweeney, who is, is a sociology professor in the University of California system, and she has made a specialty of studying this subject. Um, and she has found some tremendously interesting things over the years in her research. Um, one of them simply put is that uncertainty is super hard to deal with, uh, whether it's a serious medical diagnosis or. Even smaller instances, uh, of uncertainty. It's just not something humans are great at dealing with. So she, uh, did, done studies with people waiting for the results of biopsies or waiting for the results of a bar exam, let's and she's found that people hate uncertainty so much that they'd rather get the bad news. Um, then continue to have to wait. Um, so in one study she talks about, uh, people were told they were split into two groups and told they may or may not receive a small electrical shock. And the pe and some, a surprising number of people, I don't recall the exact figure, um, would tell the researchers, just give me the shock. I just want it over with. The waiting is, is driving me crazy. Um. So I thought that was fascinating. Um, and a real statement about how difficult it is to cope with uncertainty. Um, now she and other researchers who study this subject, they have a lot of ways to help. one is simply distracting yourself. Um, you know, even if that's a distraction, like a TV show or reading a book. Um, another is trying to find activities that get you into, you know, what? been popularly called the, recently, you know, the flow state or in the zone where for a prolonged period of time, your mind is so thoroughly occupied with what you're doing, that it helps crowd out the thoughts and worries and anxieties that otherwise, you know, creep into all of our, all of our heads. Whether, as I say, it's something day-to-day problem or a very serious problem. Um, that can be anything. It can be for some people it's baking or knitting or meditation or yoga. Uh, for me it happens to be fly fishing. I like to fish. So, um, anytime you can engage in an activity like that, it can def, definitely help you cope with anxieties or uncertainties. Um, another thing I had learned from her that was super interesting was people say to her. Uh, you know, you're an expert in this subject. How do you cope with uncertainty? And she, you know, often I guess, laughs and says to them not very well because none of us do. Um, but she also pointed out that just knowing that it's a struggle for everyone, it can be helpful in the sense that you realize, you know, it's normal to struggle with uncertainty and, and you're not alone.
Russell:Um, you mentioned fly fishing, which I enjoy as well. I'm far from an expert at it, but fishing and fly fishing particularly seemed to be very, uh, meditative and, and. Bring you into the moment. Do all the, those to me kind of fall into the concept of mindfulness. Are you, do you practice mindfulness? Is it something that's part of your recovery or part of your approach to dealing with the uncertainty?
Jon Gluck:It is, uh, I'm a terrible meditator. I guess I would describe my, uh, meditation skills, uh, in the same way you just described your fly fishing skills. You know, I wouldn't say I'm very good at it, but I. enjoy it and do my best. Um, and another thing that's interesting about a serious diagnosis, and I'm hardly alone this way, is changes your perspective in a lot of ways, and I think almost naturally makes you more mindful. So, you know, if you want to go back, uh, to your previous question about, you know, lessons that all this has taught me, or, uh, that could be of benefit to anyone, whether they're going through a diagnosis like this or not. Um. You know, there are a number of them. One is, you know, you become very aware, uh, as you might imagine, that life is short, you know, Um, and that it's important to take advantage of whatever time you have here. Um, and that's true for all of us, whether we're. Hyper aware of our mortality as I am in my case or not. Um, so for me, that's made me more present at all times and more mindful at all times, um, just simply by going through it. Um, it's also, uh, made me aware of how important it is to do something. Now if you're interested in doing it. so you want to travel to Sri Lanka, if you want to take up. Bocce, you know, it doesn't matter what it is. Um, my advice is do it now because none of us knows how long we're gonna have. If you wanna call a friend for that matter or you're thinking about somebody, um, I tend to really be committed to just doing those things now, you know, more or less the minute I think of them or, you know, if I'm busy at that moment, I'll jot down a note to make sure I do do it. Um, and that's brought me a lot of pleasure. I, I hesitate to give cancer credit for good, but. I suppose it's helped me in that way. Um, I'm also more expressive, I guess you could say, um, without going overboard, at least I hope, uh, not. Um, you know, I try and my feelings with my friends and my family about whatever it is, you know. Um, tell 'em I love 'em. Tell 'em I'm upset. Tell 'em, uh, you know, I'm thinking about them again. Uh, a diagnosis like this makes you aware that if you don't do something now. Who knows if you'll ever get the chance. Um, and that is, I guess, uh, one of the silver linings.
Russell:The do it now concept of, you know, it obviously in your situation, it's a much more, amplified, than it might be for us on a day-to-day basis. But to find that bocce tournament in Sri Lanka, as you say, combine several things there. sometimes it's a risk, sometimes it's, just Forgetting the motivation part of it and just doing it. very interesting point. in expressing those emotions or connections, whether good or bad, with family members and friends, you know, want to express your love, but there's times as well where you need to express a frustration or a disagreement. I think that's a great point.
Jon Gluck:Yeah. And it's,
Russell:it's, go ahead.
Jon Gluck:it's, uh, you know, it's, as I say, there've been many lessons that, uh, have come from this, as we're as I'm thinking about this now that you asked the question too, I mean, another one that I suspect may have come up on your discussions before as well is this idea of, you know, um, you're stronger than you think you are. and you can survive more than you think you can. you had told me at the outset of all this what I would be undergoing in the next 20 plus years. um, first of all, I didn't think I was gonna live 20 plus years. Um, you know, I was initially told I might live as, uh, little as a year and a half from my diagnosis. So, um, if you had told me that I'd have to go through all the things I've gone through, I was, I'm certain I would've said, well, I can't possibly do that. And yet here I am and I did and I've survived it. I think, you know, a lot of the limits we place on ourselves or the doubts we express to ourselves are self-imposed, and some of them aren't. You know, I don't want to create false hope and I don't believe in the idea that, well, if you just maintain a positive attitude, you can do anything. Um, there are some things we can't do, and there are some times in certainly the world of cancer where there's not gonna be a happy outcome. Um, I don't want to deny those realities, but at the same time, I have learned some valuable lessons about, um, opening yourself up to the possibility anyway, that, um, there might be a more positive outcome than you think. I.
Russell:Oftentimes we hear, especially in some of the more hyped self-help and self-improvement, you know, you can, you can accomplish anything you want to accomplish. We tell our children and I I taught school for. 10, 15 years. you know, we want to encourage the students that you can do this if you try hard enough. And in the case of illness and physical limitations, there are things that you just can't do. You know, not everybody we wanna tell our kids you could grow up to be president. And yeah, it might be possible, but, you know, there are limitations there. It's an interesting point to bring out. you don't wanna tell a child, you can't do that. So where do you, in some of your conversations, situations, do you find a way to balance that, to encourage, but still challenge.
Jon Gluck:For me, it's about, uh, you know, being, Optimistically realistic. I'm going to coin a new term. Um, so, you know, uh, and one of the things about a diagnosis like this and living with cancer so long that you learn is, is optimistic realism. Um, so what I mean by that is. You know, every time I come out of remission or I get bad news about my scans and I get checked up every three months or six months, um, when that happens, there's a moment, sometimes an hour, sometimes a day, sometimes a week, um, or more when I am super upset and feeling really discouraged and not particularly optimistic or hopeful. Um, and I think that's fine. You know, sometimes you just need to allow yourself to feel that way for a while. Um, none of us are superhuman. Even if we could, you know, uh, erase those feelings immediately, probably wouldn't be that healthy to do so. Um, but at the same time, without exception, so far anyway, um, after some amount of time passes and it varies, um. I realize, okay, it's time to get on with it now and do what I need to do treatment-wise to get better again. Um, and at that point, this is how I see it anyway. There's no sense in not being optimistic, you know, again, I don't necessarily believe that optimism or good out, attitude is gonna change my outcome, but what I 100% believe is it's gonna change my day-to-day existence. Um, and it's gonna make me a lot happier and allow me to enjoy my life more than walking around expecting that the sky is gonna fall. Um, am I perfect at that? Mm-hmm. Absolutely not. Am I even really good at it? Absolutely not. But do it to whatever extent I possibly can. Um, and I find that it's just a Just selfishly speaking, a better way to live, an easier way to live than being, you know, miserable and negative and pessimistic all the time.
Russell:the important part, I believe that you alluded to is understanding that if you're gonna get through the difficult part. You have to allow yourself to go through the process you can't skip right to acceptance or, you know, just, okay, you know, we're not gonna try to fluff over or whitewash the bad news. It's, it is bad news and part of being mindful and part of being present is to dwell on it, but you do have to realize it and accept it and then from there you can move on. I. And that's difficult, right? You have more experience with that than the rest of us. I would imagine, on a fairly recurring basis, has over the period, has that gotten, do you deal with it a different way as you go through it? Is it similar? Has it get easier? Is it more real each time? I don't want to dig into some areas that are not within our purview, but go into whatever depth you'd like to on that, or we can move on to another question if that's not appropriate.
Jon Gluck:No, uh, I think it's a great question. I'm happy to talk about it. Um, I am, yes. Uh. Uh, you know, an expert in the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, you know, stages of grief. as you suggest, you know, I've gone through this process many, many times. Um, and, uh, let's see, you know, to answer a number of your questions, uh, it get easier in the sense it does get easier in the sense that it's not a lightning bolt out of the blue. Anymore the way it was the first time, the first time I was diagnosed, I had no family history of cancer. I was 38 years old. I had a seven month old daughter. My first child. My career was going reasonably well. I had just moved into a new apartment. I was, you know, young and had friends and family. I was lucky enough to be close with and enjoy their company. I was just living my life and, you know, bang out of the blue. Um, I had some hip pain that seemed to have come, come from slipping on the ice. One day I didn't even fall. I just kind of twisted my hip. Got it checked out after six or eight weeks when it didn't go away. And uh, they took a simple x-ray, didn't see anything. Went on for almost a year. And when the year mark came up, I was like, you know, it doesn't seem right that my hip still hurts from a simple twist. And went back to the doctor. This time they did an MRI and that's when they found out I was sick. type of cancer I have presents as lesions or tumors on your bones. Uh, that start in the bone marrow and their way out, so to speak. that's what they saw on the MRI. So where I'm going with all that is, you know, that time it was an absolute shock and extremely hard to deal with. And funny enough that you bring up the subject because my first reaction was almost textbook denial. The literal first words out of my mouth when the doctor told me were, no, no, no, no. no. so that was just flat denial. Um, and then over the years, as I say, um, it has gotten easier because it's not so shocking. But on the other hand, it hasn't gotten easier. Um, hearing the words, you have cancer or you have cancer again, never is the least bit pleasant. Um, and you can't, as you suggest Exactly. Circumvent the process. Um. Every time, even though I know better now, there is at least a moment of denial. You know, every time there's a moment of anger and so on through the rest of the so-called stages of grief, um, I. What I guess I have learned, and maybe I am a little better at, is just to accept that that's gonna happen. Um, and that working through that process is gonna take some time and not fight that, or not make myself even more upset by trying to fight it, um, or wishing it wasn't gonna happen. Um, but just accepting that that's part of the deal and. It also helps to know, having gone through this many times, that you will pass through those stages and you will move on, um, and hopefully go back to your normal life, whatever has triggered that, you know, grief process in you, Um, and that's something also that I think has been a valuable lesson I've learned over the years is try and look ahead, um, to the best. To the extent you can and when you're ready. a good friend of mine, uh, when I was first diagnosed after expressing his sympathies and, uh, whatnot, said, you know, I thought that was a lovely thing to say because it gives you hope for the future. Makes you think about, makes you realize that whatever you're going through. It's not gonna last forever. Um, and there will be a time where you're back to your life and having a beer with your friends or whatever you enjoy doing, Um, and to the extent that I can focus on that, um, I've found that can be helpful.
Russell:from your point of view, can you run us through DDA or whatever your acronym is for the grieving process, uh, and just give us a, a quick step by step through that.
Jon Gluck:I mean, uh, so I guess it's what? Denial, anger, bargaining,
Russell:depression.
Jon Gluck:depression and acceptance.
Russell:is what I
Jon Gluck:Um, so yeah, I've been through all of 'em. Denial, I talked about already a little bit, uh, anger. I've certainly been angry. Uh, angry. At the universe, but also, you know, sort of consciously angry at, you know, how could this happen to me and it's not fair, that sort of thing.
Russell:of
Jon Gluck:Um, but I've also been inadvertently angry with people around me and treated people badly, whether that's my wife or friends or coworkers, you know, um, anytime you're under that much stress and, uh, something is, uh. Rightly bothering you that much. You know, I've, one thing I've learned is, uh, you know, it can work its way out in strange subconscious ways and its way to the surface in ways that I don't feel great about. And I, uh, am sorry for, I don't blame myself exactly, because it happens and I've tried to be, you know, apologetic to people when it does happen. But that's another interesting thing I've noticed that anger, the anger phase of it doesn't, isn't always something you're fully aware of and can kind of, As I say, work its way to the surface, um, without you really recognizing it, at least at first. I've definitely been a bargainer. Um, I don't happen to be a religious person, so I don't do a ton of praying per se, although, you know the expression, there are no atheists and a foxhole. Um, I have occasionally turned to religion when things are particularly bad, um, and done some praying of my own. But one of the other interesting things that's happened to me is. I've become very superstitious with respect to cancer and cancer only. Um, my friends and family would laugh at this because I'm usually not at all a superstitious person and I sort of people about being superstitious, but when it comes to my diagnosis and uh, anything to do with it, I've become. Highly superstitious. I have certain rituals I do before and after tests. You know, I'm sure they don't work one way or the other, but they make me feel better. So I do 'em anyway. Um, I, let's see, that's bargaining, uh, depression. I've certainly been through. Um, I'm not particularly inclined. Fortunately though I realize I'm lucky this way to serious bouts of depression, but I've certainly had. Uh, you know, moments or weeks or months of not feeling myself feeling down after a diagnosis or a re diagnosis, um, I don't know how anybody could not be. and acceptance, I guess, you know, is something I'm still working on and do my best, uh, with. I think to the extent I have accepted my diagnosis and re diagnoses over the years, um, it's been more of a process of. Uh, not accepting it as in, oh, it's all fine and everything will be okay, but accepting that we all deal with problems, um, and this happens to be my particular, uh, you know, cross to bear, but everybody has one. Um, and just realizing, going back to that concept that, you know, you're not alone and. You know, the Buddhists talk about life is suffering, not in the sense that, you know, your life is miserable, but that, uh, difficulty will come into everybody's life. Um, and thinking about it that way I think has helped me, I guess with the acceptance phase of things that, um, this is my, you know, it is what it is and this is what I have to deal with. Lots of people have to deal with lots of different things, some of 'em, a lot worse, uh, than what I have to deal with. And that. Perspective can sometimes help with the acceptance phase.
Russell:I think the studies tell us that they will probably experience each of these things in varying degrees and in varying orders, and some of them might last for, I've read anecdotal. Information That said, some of these phases may last just a few minutes and pass, or may, you may not even recognize that. so if that's the case, do you really go through it or not? It doesn't really matter. but for the listeners, these are not set in stone, but it, might be milestones or, bookmarks to look for in yourself and in other people. I find you're, about superstitious activities. Fascinating. What is it? Can you tell me this in your own mind? Intellectually by your own admission that these things don't make a difference. But still we do them and everybody does. I don't think we realize it, but you know, we start the car in a certain order because if I, if I have my left foot in the right spot, the car will start or whatever it might be. I find that amazing that we know it doesn't matter, but we do it anyway. What's up with that?
Jon Gluck:Yeah, my wife and daughter and some other folks I know like to, uh, touch the airplane when they're walking on board, you know, some. How that makes that, you know, makes it impossible for anything to go wrong. Um, you know, I think it, it goes to this idea that has inspired all religion and, and, uh, that's, that I think we wanna believe that there's a higher power, you know? Um, and, uh, that there's hope even when things seem hopeless. Um, you know, I, I talk about it in the book, you know, hope sort of medicine for the soul in the sense that, you know, hope is to the mind what chemotherapy or radiation or immunotherapy are for the body. You know, they're, they're just as val, it's just as valuable. Um, and you know, there's a reason, you know, uh. There's that phrase about, you know, the sign on the way into, you know, hell says, you know, abandon hope all you enter here. Um, because hope is absolutely precious and critical to human happiness and human existence. And at times when we're feeling hopeless about our own circumstances and that nothing can help, nothing in our own power can help. we can do, nothing our friends can do. Maybe not even something doctors can do. Um. I think rather than run out of hope, uh, we look for a new source of hope. Um, and for many people that's religion. For many people it's superstition. For many people, it's both. Um, it sort of doesn't matter. At that point, you'll grasp onto anything that allows you that little spark of hope that makes us feel a little happier, more comfortable, um, less, uh, hopeless.
Russell:Hope is not wish things turn out correctly. It, it's not, uh, you know, I hope I win the lottery. Hope is a knowledge that. is going to come to pass. That's, that's not a great definition of it, but what is hope? If you were to, to try to define it and put it into concrete terms, how would you define hope?
Jon Gluck:I guess I'd go back to what I was talking about a little bit earlier about, you know, just allowing yourself the possibility, um, not hitting yourself, not forcing yourself to believe in a positive outcome. I. But allowing yourself the possibility to believe the PO in the possibility that something good might happen, even when there's evidence that it might not. Um, maybe that's my best working definition.
Russell:But you said you're not a religious person, but then you talk about a higher power. Um. And frequently on this show also comes up the concept of comparing spirituality, which might be my own approach to life, and believing that there is some higher power, whatever it might be, versus religion, uh, is an implementation, but a different aspect, I think, and really more than in the, the way that I use the terms more different than the average person wants to think it is. What are your, you're not religious. Are you spiritual? Do you have, uh, beliefs in higher power? Does that help you through the processes and, uh, daily life?
Jon Gluck:Yeah, I mean, uh, the first thing that comes to mind is something that happened actually on the day I was diagnosed. Um, and that was November 4th, 2003. Um, you know, uh, almost anybody who's received a cancer diagnosis will tell you they know their diagnosis date. You know it almost as well as they know their birthday. If not the immediate reaction was pure shock and as I said, denial. And, um, then it took me a while to work up the nerve to talk to some of the people I needed to talk to and tell the people I needed to tell. Uh, and by the time that evening rolled around, um, I was at least an ounce more stable and not in total shock and total denial. And it begun to, you know, think ahead a little bit about what might happen, what I could do, what was in my control, what wasn't in my control. Um, and one of the thoughts I remember having was, I guess you could say a quite spiritual thought though, not a religious thought. Um, which was, I remember thinking, you know, okay. And these terms, I was just sort of making up as I went along. I remember thinking, uh, that there's a death force, um. And that that force was sort of closer to me than it had ever been. Um, and more powerful in my, a more powerful presence in my life than it had ever Been, You know, most of us. And why not, you know, go through life, not, you know, knowing rationally that, you know, we're gonna die someday, but almost never thinking about it. Uh, unless we're forced to, obviously in this case I had been forced to, you know, rather dramatically. Um, so I remember thinking like, okay, I feel the presence of this force trying to take me down, so to speak. Um, but then my very next thought was, there's obviously also a life force and there's a very powerful human instinct to survive. Um. That's mu far beyond our understanding at this point. Even with all we do know about the mind and the body, uh, medically and psychologically. Um, and that that force, that life force was, you know, just as powerful as the death force. And they were sort of constantly battling it out. Um, and not to get too Star Wars about it, but, uh, you know, the, the way I came out that day was I needed to believe in the life force. Um. Uh, and you know, I would say that's probably the sort of spirituality that, that I find myself, you know, uh, having.
Russell:mentioned a friend that said, we're gonna have a beer together after this is over. Um, what is in a, in a practical way, from my point of view, uh, if I were an acquaintance of yours and you were sharing with me news of your diagnosis, what is the best way for me to validate and to support someone is receiving. News like you've personally and you share it with someone, how can I best support that person? Is there a certain, can I say certain things? Should I avoid certain things? Or is it just something you have to take on a case by case basis?
Jon Gluck:No, I think, uh, there are definitely things dos and don't there, so to speak, you know? I've had many of them in my life, uh, both when I was first diagnosed and since, I mean, uh, somebody I knew said to me, um, when I was first diagnosed, oh, I understand what you're going through. I had a skin cancer scare, uh, once, and it turned out it was benign. That was not helpful, um, because you know, it's apples and oranges. Uh, and I've realized people are well intentioned and also people get nervous when. They hear about a cancer diagnosis, it can be scary. And, you know, we all, when we're nervous sometimes blurt out things that we didn't intend. Um, so I, you know, I try not to be too harsh or critical of people who, you know, say or do the quote unquote wrong thing, but, I didn't find that particularly helpful. Um, on the other hand, um, whenever somebody simply says to me, I mean, it's easy, like so many things of this sort, right? It's. It's, easier than you think. You just get in your own way. Um, and when somebody just simply expresses their sympathy, um, gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Um, or that sucks, I can't imagine what you're going through, but that sounds really hard. All of those are extremely helpful. So just a basic expression of sympathy. Um, and also, you know, an offer to help, even though it may not be needed, it may not even be entirely practical. You know, I've had friends who've live halfway around the world and have said, you know. and if there's anything I can do to help, please let me know. Um. That's helpful also because in its own way, it's an expression of sympathy or support, I guess, and knowing that people sympathize and understand, and knowing that they're ready, willing, and able to support you, or even if they can't practically support you, that they're emotionally supporting you. Um, those things are very, very valuable and always greatly appreciated.
Russell:most of us are familiar with, uh. Stephen Curry's book, the Seven Habits of Highly Successful People. I'm not gonna ask you to go for seven, but, and I'm not gonna ask you to pull anything from that book, but from your personal life, you have a handful, maybe two or three habits that you do on a daily basis, uh, that you would strongly encourage our listeners to put into regular practice? Uh, so maybe a, a list there or anything off the top of your head if you have them. And then some final thoughts to close us out and, and we'll sign off after that.
Jon Gluck:as far as your question about the book, um, uh, if. This, if you're listening to this before June 10th, uh, you can still pre-order the book. It's available on all the major online retailers and, uh, uh, for pre-order, um, Amazon and others, uh, bookshop.org if you prefer that. Um, and leaving behind that shameless, uh, plug for the book, uh, and turning to far more serious matters. what advice do I have or what lessons, what do I suggest people practice in their own lives? Uh, you know, I guess for me, one of the things I've realized in thinking about this a great deal over the years is, you know, people, uh, talk about the Serenity Prayer. Um, you know, gimme the strength to, uh, change the things I can change and accept the things I can't. That's paraphrasing, uh, obviously, but that's the essence of it, Um, I've said to people, I, you know, I don't know if that's the secret to human happiness, but it's as close as I've come. Um, and I, I think there's just a great deal of wisdom in that. So, you know, if you're facing a difficulty, uh, you know, do your best to address it, you know, um, particularly when it comes to cancer and cancer diagnosis. Get your regular screenings if something doesn't feel right or you have a suspicion that something is. Going on too long, or as I said with my hip, it was just, you know, almost a year. And I had only just done this minor thing to it Um, and thank goodness I finally went back to the doctor and said, you know, this doesn't seem right. Highly advise you to do that. You know, if, if things don't add up, you know, go see your doctor. get your regular screenings, early detection is still the best way to, uh, prevent cancers from becoming serious or, or worse fatal. Um. So, yeah, do control the things you can control. Um, and then on the other side of that coin, um, accept the things you can't, you know, we talked some about this already, but, um, try and make peace with the things that you can't, uh, problems that you can't wrestle to the ground with your own bare hands or with the help of friends, family, loved ones, experts, whatever it is. Um, because fighting those things or. Trying to wish them away or pretend they're not happening, in my experience anyway, only makes them worse. Um, so that would be my all seven habits boiled into one.
Russell:thank you Jonathan, for being with us today. Listeners, thank you for joining us for this, uh, episode. Hope you'll be back next week. Uh, today's guest was Jonathan Gluck, and as he mentioned, if you're. Uh, listening before you can pre-order his book or after June 10th and exercise in uncertainty. Alright, that's it for today. Uh, we'll close here and hope to see you next week. Thank you very much, listeners.