Jason Whitlock Calls Out Stephen A. Smith | Sage Steele Show | EP 83

Well, love him or hate him, he is one of the all-time great sports journalists and he's actually got the receipts to back it up. That's where my convo with Jason Whitlock ended and we covered a lot of space from the lack of good black journalists.

he could only actually name one, and you might be shocked to hear who that is, to one of the biggest regrets of his life, not getting married, not having children. We talked about race. We talked about how his politics cost him so much. We talked about his... friend, Stephen A. Smith. And then our disagreement about women in sports, it got kind of heated there and neither one of us held back. What a day, what a convo with my friend Jason Whitlock on this episode of the Sage Deal Show. Enjoy.

You receive more hate maybe than anybody I know in our industry, and you seem to be okay with it. I'm perfectly fine with it. That's interesting, though. I hadn't... thought about that but that's probably true because i tend to catch heat from both sides uh and so it's like everybody's against me uh and then there are people that are for me But yeah, I hadn't even thought about that. I don't even know who would be second. Well, Stephen A catches a lot of heat. Stephen A. Well, I do think...

You have some similarities now to your friend Stephen A. Smith. I do? Yes. Because you both catch heat from both sides. Yeah. That's interesting. I don't. I don't find Stephen A.'s political talk authentic. No, I don't either. And so I don't know what to make of the heat he catches because I don't know why anybody would...

give him much heat about his political positions because they change so often. And so I get people like, I got a biblical worldview that doesn't move. And so I get why people... sometimes people think I'm self-righteous and then they go, but man, this guy talks about his own failures and problems and all of that. So I'm not really self-righteous, but man, you've given.

Stephen A deals with something different than I do because I think none of Stephen A's positions, in my view, are authentic. And so the heat that he catches doesn't feel authentic either. It's like that's his job. Well, I think he's very strategic. Yes. And I've said this several times. It's easy now to say some of the things that he's saying. Oh, yes. Because if you were really going to rail against the Democrats, you would have done that pre-election. Yes. Or 10 years ago. Yeah. Or...

You know, certainly during the Biden administration. And so if Biden had won or Kamala had won. what would he be saying right now? He'd be saying the same things. It's only, hey, the wind may be blowing a different direction, and so let me go with the wind, where to me it's like I've always been swimming upstream.

Yeah, I mean, I will say, and I think I said this on your show two years ago when we sat down at your studio, you know, I've always respected him. I've respected his work ethic. Like, he does work. hard. Me or Stephen A? Not you. Oh, not me. I'm kidding. I agree with you. Of course, you. Of course. But no, Stephen A. Because I was there. I was there when he got fired, when he got let go. Yeah. And then he humbled himself. He went away.

He did radio in New York, and then he came back. And what he has built now is pretty incredible because he has complete power. I don't know that there's anyone more powerful in sports media right now. And Stephen A., maybe McAfee based on salary. I would think McAfee. I think Colin Cowherd's in that realm. I don't want to just sit here and beat up on Stephen A. I think he's more dependent, dependent than McAfee or even Colin Cowherd. You know, so Stephen A to me.

And much like McAfee went out and built his own audience. Literally built his own audience. ESPN has given Stephen A an audience and they can take it away. When they get ready to take it away from Stephen A., it won't exist. And again, Colin Cowherd, I think of as independent. McAfee, independent. They have audiences that will follow them.

here there in any way i don't believe that's true about steven a he has created uh some separation there with his youtube which i again give him credit for convincing them to promote his youtube show on first take they don't get any chunk of that like he has i think he's smart enough to know that he needs to have something else besides anything that has espn's name on it and he's and he's gotten permission to go talk politics

talk on any talk show that has nothing to do with sports. I'm not trying to simply diss Stephen A. But without ESPN, it all goes away. You don't think people follow him? No. Why? Because he's inauthentic. And these other people we're talking about, whatever problems I may have with Pat McAfee, I think he's authentic. Whatever problems I have with... Cowherd, I think he's mostly authentic. And I think he's built a real audience that he has transferred from ESPN over to FS1.

There's a reason why Stephen A. pretty much won't leave ESPN unless they push him out is because he has no audience without ESPN. He's not interesting. And I know... That sounds crazy because he has a reputation for being interesting, but no one's going to remember any positions he took, and he doesn't take bold stances. There's nothing, you know. yourself and Riley Gaines and Sam Ponder, people can sit around and say, oh, those ladies drew a line in the sand over a specific issue.

dealt with the blowback from that, that's not Stephen A. That's not him at all. He's done whatever. is necessary to make as much money in this business as you possibly can. And hats off to him. That's his end game. There are people that actually do still stand for something in the media.

And he's not one of those people. And that's why I think if you take the ESPN name away from him, what's he really saying that people are interested in? He's now running around. pretending to be some kind of political analyst and he just spews talking points surface level talking points I watch him engage with some of these people from Megyn Kelly to any of them that actually know what they're talking about. And he doesn't say anything. And trust me, Megyn Kelly and all the people that keep...

putting him on their shows, if ESPN goes away, they have no interest because he's not going to say anything interesting. Which I think... Deep down, maybe he knows that. And that's why he's trying to create all this. And they'll never tell him no. I mean, he has gotten to the point where it's, we said this before, it's the Stephen A rules and it's everybody else.

Stephen A. and Bob Iger clearly have a special relationship, and they clearly have plans for Stephen A. to go beyond being a sports talk host, or Bob Iger does. And that's why, you know, I was... after i read his book and and i immediately started explaining like oh man

there's there's something more here this guy wants to run for president someone's put this battery in his back and so this was two and a half years ago or that i was and people were saying i was crazy and now no one says i'm crazy Wait, I don't remember. You said that you thought Stephen A. wanted to run for president back then? Yes, two and a half years ago.

Read his book. It's clear as day. His book is written as a prelude to him running for president. As soon as I read it, I was like, oh, man, this is what all these political people do. Obama. and others, they all write these fantasy memoirs that put them in position. Do you think he will? I think that's the goal. How would he do if he does? I would discount nothing. Seriously, I would discount nothing. I would take it very, Bob Iger and Disney are some of the most powerful forces on the planet.

Kamala Harris just ran for president and came relatively close. Joe Biden got 81 million votes. You know, they can install. Barack Obama's background is as mysterious and from out of nowhere. And yes, he talks the part or sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but they can pretty much install. whoever they want in the presidency. This goes all the way back to Harry S. Truman. And so, yeah, I would take...

Stephen A. seriously as a political candidate, because if he does it, if someone powerful has told him, we got you. And people forget that Bob Iger was going to run for president in 2020. Yeah. And he is pretty far left. Yes. We know which party he'd be running for.

That's a great point. He would certainly help support Stephen A, get that done. But I think that's one of the reasons why he keeps getting asked on so many shows is, yes, maybe the Iger influence, but also people are shocked that someone who works at ESPN. A black man who works at ESPN every once in a while says things that goes along with the right, and then people are like, oh my gosh, what is this? Because this doesn't happen, and it certainly wasn't allowed to happen before.

To me, that's the reason why people are so taken by him. I think that's the aftermath of Trump. is that the left has figured out, well, we got to do some of this conservative stuff or posturing. But what I think about politics... is that virtually all of it is a stage, and that's why Trump was so disruptive, is that he wasn't a part of the pre-planned... uh we're gonna put hillary in charge and we're going to usher in a full wave of feminism to american culture trump has put a band-aid

on that situation. And that's why they doubled back with Kamala. And right now they're thinking, well, we got to get a second Obama-like figure because, you know, we keep trying to... put women in and it's not working. And so if you do a deep dive on Stephen A's book and the way he went after his father and his book.

as opposed to what he used to say about his father in interviews. And you can go look up in the late 1990s, early 2000s, what Stephen A. would say about his father. No criticism at all. mostly praise of his father, certainly no criticism. And then he comes out with this book where he basically says he had an absentee father and he can't stand his father. And it's all about his mother. That's.

Trying to put Stephen A. in the feminist lane, in the support of the matriarchy lane, I don't know if it's true or not. Yeah, it's his story. But I have looked at... previous interviews from the late 1990s early 2000s he had a completely different narrative about his dad than he does now and so Everything about Stephen A, from his college basketball career to his early career as a sports journalist, it's all been managed and assisted.

by forces that, you know, early on, it's like hard for me to say, how could Bob Iger or how could, because they didn't even, Disney didn't even own ESPN then. So maybe the early stuff in his journalism career was authentic. And then when he got sent away and... banished from espn i think when he came back he came back and told i'll do anything and they said okay now we got you now we have you right where we want you

And he offered himself up because he, you know, not being famous, he'd rather be dead. And so he's willing to do whatever. They got a guy that they can run around and say he can pretend like he sees both sides of every issue and he's relatable to conservatives and liberals. It's a nice little gimmick that I take seriously. Most people laugh at Stephen A. and his political deal, and, oh, it's harmless. I don't think it's harmless at all.

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts. Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage? Well, I dig the mattress, and I want to be in a T-Mobile commercial like you. Teach me, Sildana. Oh, no. I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly. At T-Mobile, get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system. Wow, impressive. Let me try. T-Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

Nice, Jeffrey. You heard them. T-Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible trade-in in any condition. So, what are we having for lunch? Dude, my work here is done.

with 24 monthly bill credits on experience beyond for well-qualified customers plus tax and $35 device connection charge credits ended balance due to pay off earlier canceled finance agreement iphone 17 pro 256 gigs 1099.99 and new line minimum $100 plus a month plan with auto pay plus taxes and fees required best mobile network in the u.s. based on analysis by eclipse speed test intelligence data

Were you guys ever friends? No, not friends. Friendly, but we were never friends. I was off in Kansas City. I wasn't in the East Coast. You know, we weren't. He's NBA. I'm football. And I'll tell you a story. This is what I would say we're friendly. But this is when I realized, like, man, we're really different.

I was speaking down in Florida at... it's in tampa and i don't know why i can't think of the name of the organization but it's a powerful journalistic think tank type organization i'm sorry i can't think of the name of it but everybody knows it in the journalism industry I'm speaking there. There's a convention. Stephen A. was just there as an attendee. He walks by, and so this had to be in the late 1990s. He walks by, and I was like, hey, Stephen A.

And come on in. I'm speaking in front of 50 people or 75. I'm not sure. And I was like, hey, there's Stephen A. Smith. And I introduced him to the audience. And I was like, Stephen A., say a couple words. Stephen A. talked for, I think, 17 straight minutes. And he only stopped because I was like, hey, Stephen A., I got to give this speech here. And that's when I was like, wow. This guy is different. Who can talk 17 straight minutes about themselves, turn the conversation into...

how he's been disrespected and mistreated and faced this unbelievable racism in the industry. And I'm like... That's never been my point of view, and that's certainly not a message I would be sending to young people that, you know, oh, you're going to face all this terrible discrimination, blah, blah. That's not my story. That's not Stephen A's story. Stephen...

People have bent over backwards helping Stephen A. Smith at the Philadelphia Inquirer and every place else he works, but he's standing in front of a group of young people and young journalists and telling them how he's been mistreated and faced all this. racism and this just goes on and i was like he's so unaware like everybody knows like that's not my perspective that's not my point of view he's taking over my deal and i'm like i so regretted uh asking

You know, and he's also turned it into an incredible career, period. So there are people who say, why is Whitlock so obsessed with Stephen A? Whitlock's... jealous of Stephen A. Why does Whitlock talk about him so much? Because he's important. He's running for, in my view, the presidency. He has acquired a lot of power.

at the most powerful sports media platform that we have here in America, ESPN. Stephen A. is important and he should be talked about. Stephen A. is out there as a representative of what all sports journalists should be but particularly black sports journalists you should be loud you should be a know-it-all You should have very little actual journalistic chops. It's just if you have a personality and you can be loud and people can call you entertaining, that's what you should be.

I represent something completely different. I want you to be a great journalist. I want instead of just reacting to the news cycle, I want journalists. to drive the news cycle, to be, hey, this is what we're talking about, not someone else telling you this is what we're talking about. Now you react to it. And so it's a poor form. It's a poor form of journalism, what he's doing, that doesn't lead to anything productive. If you don't control the conversation...

rather than reacting to the conversation. You end up talking about dumb things that are insignificant. You end up talking about, and this is, they don't let, and I'm talking about, this is in all forms of media in America. They never let black people define the conversation. They let black people react to the conversation that they have defined. That's why they'll sit there and say. Police are just out randomly killing black people. React to that. And so everybody gives a performance on that.

And everyone starts, and it's like, we know it's not the truth, but hey, this is our lane. We get to come on TV and complain every time a black criminal gets killed. That's our job. We can get paid. We'll get on CNN. We'll get on all the news networks. Whereas a journalist wants to define the conversation to start. OK, well, here's what's really. crippling, hurting, making black people struggle, the collapse of the black family structure.

Let's have that conversation. And that's what, if you go back to 2013, 14, when I was back at the Undefeated, this is why. Which was at ESPN. Yeah, at ESPN. This is why. there was such a problem with me. If you go look at the little bit of journalism they allowed us to do, it's all about, we redefined.

the way people think of Charles Barkley. If you go look at the story that Jesse Washington wrote and I edited and conceived, it was about redefining Charles Barkley and getting people to understand why does Charles Barkley say these conservative things so consistently. Well, he grew up in Alabama and the whole area in Alabama was dominated by Booker T. Washington. And he has a Booker T. Washington mentality coming out of Alabama.

We tied it all together. Charles Barkley told me this, but it's the best piece of journalism that's ever been done on Barkley. They don't want black people doing that. Who's they? The power structure, the... Bob Igers. Leslie Moonves, like all the people at the top of all the networks. At the very top. We're entertainers. We're supposed to come on TV and be emotional.

And call white people racist. That's like our job. And make people laugh. But to actually address real issues? No, no dice. That's not what you're here for. And so most black people, they go the way the wind is blowing. If the wind and the money says, be a personality, claim racism, and that will keep you in good stead. That's what they do. And I wanted to completely disrupt that. And if you look at the undefeated, after they removed me and the work that they've produced over the past.

five or six, seven years, they've produced no work that's driven the conversation. Does it even exist? Yeah, it still exists. They renamed it, I think. What's it called now? It's something else. Anscape. Anscape, which means nothing. What the hell does that mean? Right. Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, okay. Listen, I think you make so many fair points. The problem with you is you always make me think deeper than I want to. No, I love it.

And who are black journalists right now, sports, news? Are there any in particular that you think are being actual journalists versus just reacting? I'm going to make people's heads explode when I say it because they're not a traditional journalist, but it would be Candace Owens. She's driving conversations. She's making people think about the news in a different way. Using sources. Yes. You're so right. But Anscape or whatever that is.

They do none of that. Anyone in sports? Black? No. And I don't mean that as an insult, but no. Who are white journalists who are doing that in sports? In sports, it would be there's a handful of guys that used to work at ESPN, now have smaller, you know, it's like, but. To some degree, it's been eliminated because ESPN's hired Dan Wetzel, but he has no real profile there. He's not, you know.

ESPN has just moved away from that type of journalist. They're in bed with the league, so you're not going to challenge anything. You're not going to go off script. Liz Merrill still works there. I think I just saw her do something interesting, but again, nothing that really challenges any of the popular narratives.

Wright Thompson is still there, and occasionally he'll do a long profile. But again, they're not as prominent as they used to be. Remember when he did the Michael Jordan piece a few years ago, and it really... I think he did something maybe on Tiger Woods, but those are few and far between now. We do know you're making a great point in terms of it's not just black journalists that they've... limited and put in a lane it's it's the whole system is built around just covering fluff and yeah

And this is why I'm critical of ESPN, because they are the worldwide leader. And they've gotten in bed with the NFL and all the sports leagues and gambling companies. And no one's rocking the boat. Period. End of story. Maybe The Athletic does some occasional things for The New York Times. Yeah. But Pablo Torre here recently has been rocking the boat.

The Clippers? Yeah. The Clippers story. And then he just had one about Bill Belichick. Yeah. And his girlfriend. And he wasn't the greatest story. And he's a former ESPN person who's... Left, right? Pablo's a journalist, wants to be a journalist. He always has been. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Pablo is a legitimate journalist. But everybody else, it was like I was the oddball.

By the way, once Pablo got away from Bomani as much as their best friends, or maybe they're not, but they certainly had that show together for a long time that was forced. Yeah. And then he went off on his own, and I've always respected him and thought that he did good work. You know, it's well-documented, the double standard that exists there.

with their analysts, with anyone that's on TV that's black versus white. Ryan Clark, obviously, is probably the most obvious example of late who has... crossed so many inappropriate lines and issued so many apologies, but is still propped up. What do you attribute that to? The fear that really, I think...

totally changed the trajectory of this country that began really in 2020, George Floyd? No, I'm going to sound like a broken record, and I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but Ryan Clark's the kind of... Black journalist that Bob Iger can support. But he's not a journalist. He's an analyst. Gotcha. He's the kind of analyst that Bob Iger could support. He's the kind of talking head. He stirs up racial division. He doesn't... point to a greater truth that leads to racial harmony. And he, I don't.

Ryan claims a Christian faith, but you can't see it in his behavior on ESPN. And again, there's a clinging to truth. That should be pervasive in all the journalism and certainly journalism platforms. But but it also if you're interested in bringing people together, you have to unpack the truth so that, you know, Thomas Jefferson. said that he'd rather have newspapers so that people, voters, citizens could learn the truth and then react.

to that truth and make decisions based on the truth that's unpacked through journalism we we don't have that anymore uh and so and and we've hired people for big checks that are perfectly fine, you know, stirring up racial division, stirring up racial... I mean, Ryan Clark and I... I've prayed for Ryan Clark in private. I really have. And I'm not saying that to score any points because I don't like Ryan Clark. And so, but...

When I think of him being a former athlete and how much football brings people together over racial differences, over... All kinds of differences. One guy may like country music, the other guy might R&B, but you come together in a football locker room. And to go on TV... And pretend, because he's pretending. He knows this. He's played a lot of football and seen a lot of guys come together in pursuit of a goal.

get over a little petty differences, but to go on TV and to racialize all of these discussions the way that he does and make everybody sit around and talk about. Is the quarterback black or white? Is he the right kind of black quarterback? Is he authentically black? It's insane. It's absolutely insane. And then to sit there and have been involved with some white woman that he had a baby with, that he knows he's got a half-white child out there and a half-black child.

And to be that unfair and that divisive, it's really sickening. And the fact that ESPN tolerates it or promotes it says a lot about ESPN. That's unfortunately one of the many reasons why they've lost credibility. And it breaks my heart. And I've said this before, and I always will, because I'm grateful for all 16 and a half years there. I honestly wouldn't change a thing because that's based on faith too, right? Where the journey leads to today.

we wouldn't be able to even have this conversation. But people don't go there for that. They don't go there for division, frankly. They go there for experts like Ryan, who've been places that you and I have not on NFL fields and NFL locker rooms, et cetera. to break it down for us in ways that we want to understand. And that's where it makes me sad that not only he and many others have chosen that route, but that the network has not just allowed it, but encouraged it. I think...

But that's one thing to have your opinions on football that we might disagree with. Fine. You played in college. You have certainly more perspective than I do. I think when we bring in these social issues and then don't know the facts. And don't choose to educate ourselves for two minutes before those cameras go on to make sure that you have the facts right. That's where it gets ugly and to another level, whether it's Ryan, whether it's LeBron James in the past.

Mina Kimes, like you name it. The list is very long, but there's no accountability for it. There's no executive at ESPN. And, you know, I guess I'm Dave Roberts is their top. black executive. He's not qualified or comfortable or in position to tell any of the black employees like hey you've gone too far this isn't fair he's no sort of expert on this he was a radio

executive that has risen to a lot of power. He and Stephen A have risen to a lot of power. And so all the real people and real journalists have been marginalized at ESPN. And that marginalization, we shouldn't be surprised about it. It's probably always been on that course, but they're just winging it as it relates.

to race and someone should just say, Hey, cut it out here at newspapers. What used to happen is you would have, I don't know. wouldn't maybe not be called this, but we'd have a race writer or someone that covered racial issues. And that was their area of expertise. And they covered these things. And other people like, nope, you do high school sports. Nope, you write about the University of Missouri. Nope, you do this, you do that. But now it's everybody.

Twitter has done this to where everybody thinks they're an expert on these issues, and they're talking about really, really serious issues with no information. I go back to... Remember the Duke volleyball player, Rachel somebody? Did she go out to BYU or something? Went out to BYU. They called her the N-word and blah, blah, blah.

It was so crystal clear. And then when Don Staley jumped on board, next thing you know, Stephen A. And maybe, and I like Marcus Spears, but I think Marcus Spears jumped in on it. And they just trashed. unknown students at BYU. And the thing was BS. And no one came back after to correct it. Yes. And so if you have... experience like because from the moment i was like man this don't make sense are you kidding me there's phones everywhere it's byu

No one's going to an arena and just yelling crazy things at some black volleyball player. Even if they are racist, they're smarter than that. Right. For no one at ESPN to be able to tell people, like, man, no, we're going to stay away from this. But. They don't have anybody that wants to play that role. Because if you play that role, you're called an Uncle Tom and a sellout. And you're not popular in the cafeteria. And people then start saying, well...

I don't want to go on air with that person because they got the wrong opinion about this or that. Yeah. Who might you be referring to with that one? It's literally like. If there were going to be an expert on it, it would actually be the mother that has mixed race kids. It would actually be she's more qualified. Then the guy who seems to be ashamed of his half-white kid. Oh, wow. Yes. Then the mother who loves her kids in full. Loudly. Yes. Yeah.

You know, I think at some point that's the definition of insanity when I keep saying, but, but, but when, wait, wait, when you know, like, you know what the result is going to be. You know, these people don't have the. balls in many instances to speak the truth. So at some point that's on me or you or us for giving them credit enough to think that they might.

do the right thing. Like that ship has sailed. And I think especially because when people see what happens when you do tell the truth, right? I mean, you are a great example of that. I am in different ways. Samantha Ponder, Riley Gaines, like we all know why people stay silent. And I say to them a lot, like I get it. It is smarter in many ways, but it depends on what your standards are. And that that's where I. I try not to crush people as much as I probably was.

who aren't standing up for women's sports and making sure men stay out like let's talk about common sense that's a real easy one well of course it is and that's why i've but i i do know these people who live in fear even though We're a couple years into this further and it's so much more obvious. But if the leadership, the people who are writing those checks and giving you those contracts has made it clear that they don't like when we're being honest.

You have a decision to make, and most people make their decision. I try not to blame them, but it doesn't mean I don't respect them. I'll admit that. For me, where I've gone is...

A lot of these, I have to give them grace because they're not in the position I'm in, in terms of, hey, look, I don't have kids. I don't have a wife. If they cancel me, I'm good. I don't have to sit there because, again, I've been very honest with you. I don't know if you want me to go here, but you said you don't care. I would be married and have mixed-race kids if I had just done what I wanted to do.

And there's two women that I should have married in my life. And I didn't do it because I was petrified of having mixed race kids. I was petrified of my dad and his reaction. And so, you know, I did a cowardly thing and, you know, made decisions that really, really I regret.

We talked about this when I was on your show and I wrote these words down that you used because it broke my heart then. And it broke my heart again to listen to it two years later. Yeah, you said I totally undermined and destroyed relationships. Because I didn't want to deal with the hassle. The hassle of interracial kids, biracial kids, and what comes with that. You said they were the best relationships that you've ever had.

How have you continued to deal with that when you say the word regret? That's heavy because your life would be very different. It's very different. It's very heavy. It's, you know, everybody makes mistakes in their lives. This is my big, horrible mistake that I wish I hadn't made because it just, I'm not. I should have kids. I would have been a great father. I wanted to have kids. I wanted that. But I knew what I was going to do as a journalist.

At a very young age, I knew what type of person I was at a very young age. And then once I went into journalism, I knew like, man, I'm here to speak some really hardcore truths about race. I didn't want my kids or my wife to suffer the consequences of that. Now, is that the reason that you came to understand before or after you got over the white part of it?

You know, because the journalistic part of it and how your job's going to affect them is one thing. But it seems like the first thing was that she was white and you were black and your family might not have liked it. Certainly. More than anything, because my family will tell you, like, when Jason makes a decision, he don't care. It's not that I don't care about him because I do care about him.

I'm not. No, I was mostly concerned about I'm going to have kids and my kids are going to go to school and they're going to get called names because of the things that I write, the things that I stand for. And I just my childhood was so amazing, so amazing that we were poor and, you know, but my childhood was so amazing. I didn't have to deal with that. I didn't want to put that burden.

on my children and then i also didn't you know the women i'm talking about they would sit there and be like are you kidding me i would i would have handled that you know it wouldn't have been a big deal but I didn't want them to have to deal with, I didn't want their family to have to deal with. I love my brother virtually more than any person in the world. We kind of look alike. He's three years older than me.

Obviously, we carry the same last name. He gets questioned about me all the time. And every time I hear about it, it cuts. It hurts. And it's not my brother's no shame. And, you know, my brother's my best friend in life. But I just think about what I do and how it impacts him. And. It hurts. But there's some truth that I feel like God put me on this earth to speak on. And I'm going to do it. And I'm just trying to.

minimize the complications for others. And so even those people who loved you with all that, I mean, yes. These women, it sounds like, knew your dreams and loved you anyway. And you pushed them away. I certainly, now, yes. There's no question about it that I did that. Other things. Now, I was an idiot in some degree. And let's don't leave out the 25% of me that was just an idiot.

Yes, there was always that underlying thing about, man, I really don't want to get married because it's going to really complicate her life, kids life. But there was also just the idiot in me in terms of like. man i like a big booty and a loose woman and and uh you know i a couple of girls that i let hang around way too long So my stupidity contributed to it as well. But yeah, I mostly didn't want the hassle. Me and my dad were close.

And my dad was racist, but not just, yeah, he was racist. My dad was great, though. I love my dad. He's dead now. My mother would have dealt with it, but trust me. you know she's like any black mother she wants her child to marry someone that looks like her um and Yeah. Was that more, you think, the mom and dad part? No. It wasn't? No. Because I love my parents. Yeah. But I'll draw a line in the sand with my parents.

My dad's passed, but they both know that. I read enough of the Bible, and I'll, you know. Jesus didn't come here to bring us all together. He came with a sword. And so I can't put it on my parents. It's just me. I got this weird thing about kids that... I just want them to have the joy that I had. And I'm talking about all kids. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but you can go talk to young kids that I've... Dante Love is a kid that broke his neck at Ball State playing football in 2008.

he comes from virtually nothing he's a great football player he was headed to the nfl he breaks his neck at indiana university in 2008 again a game against them i go to the hospital and and that night and i made him a pledge dude i got you from here on out you're not going to play professional football but me and you are going to be friends and i'm going to help you transition into the rest of your life he you know, recovered and looks normal and moves normal and all that other stuff. But...

I've been with this guy since 2008. He just got married a month ago. Wow. He's got three great kids. He did the kids first, but he married the woman. He's got three great kids. He's got a great job. His wife's got a great job. it's it's and i just wanted to him to experience things that i experienced and you know i got a cousin named josh that grew up really rough, really rough. He moved in with me for two years in Kansas City.

And it went well, and then it went poor. He thought I was too hard on him, and he went back to Indianapolis. Then he got in trouble and had to go to jail. He just got married a month ago. He's got one kid. He just married a great woman. He made it. And there's been, I could rattle off young people that.

I've helped or tried to help them be an asset to, I just got a weak spot for kids because I think we've done things here in this society to compromise the kind of joy and optimism that I had when I was growing up. And we've complicated things in a way that I just feel like, man. And that's a long time ago where you even said that. Yes. I mean, because it's one thing today where it's obviously, it is scary to bring kids into the world. You know, I'm sad.

Only because you say you regret it. There's many people out there who are like, no, I'm good. I never wanted kids. Great. So I'm not sad for them. But since you say you have a regret, I am sad because I do think someone with your common sense, strength.

Fearlessness. Fearless, the name of the show. And just the way that you... have this love that i don't think most people it's not what you usually talk about on your show every day right i know you you touch on this topic yeah um and other things i think people are always surprised to see the softer side of jason whitlock but that's why i'm sad is because

You would have been a great dad. And those kids would have been so blessed to have you because of all those things that really are not as common. Let me say that because this is the other issue that. Maybe you could speak to the other fear I had is that I ran into so many mixed kids my own age that have this racial confusion. Yes. And it's like if I had had. kids with a white woman and my kid had ever come home talking about Black Lives Matter, I might have fallen over and died.

What did I do here? And that's, I see so many mixed race kids trying to have this black moment. I, I, yeah.

I do too. And whatever that means. How do you define a black moment? I agree. I want them to have Christian moments. Thank you. But this world is rigged to make them think being black means my... pants got to be hanging off my rear and i'm a victim yes and i and i'm and that that would be my other it's like if my kids had some sort of racial confusion i i i wanted to avoid that i have heard that

so many times and i i've seen tv shows about it where it's not fair to the kid i'm not going to do that and it's like to me it's a cop out probably because i'm only alive because My parents, and you know the story from back in 1970, 71, when this was really not popular to marry outside of your race. So yeah, I'm sensitive to it because nothing's easy anymore. Nothing is easy, period. Does this make it maybe another level of difficult? I guess, but...

Even when you have all white, all black, whatever, and you lead together as Christian parents, Jewish parents, whatever it is, right, wrong, morals, values, discipline, love, accountability, all those things. Your kids are still going to make mistakes. And sometimes those mistakes are really big. And you pray that they're not. We've experienced that. And I have the best parents who literally I would probably...

As a parent now of three young adults, I mean, my parents did a better job than I did. And there were still decisions that we made that were really costly. I think it's not fair, unfair to narrow it down to, okay, if I do this to them with a white mama, they're screwed.

Do we see it publicly a lot with the Kaepernicks of the world? Yeah. Did I experience it myself? I mean, hi at ESPN or every day on social media. You're not black enough. Remember what happened with Elle Duncan and Michael Eaves? Yeah. And she shouldn't be on. that show about race and sport around the George Floyd because I'm not accepted by the real black community. What is that? Define it. Define what being black enough is. They can kiss my butt. Like I don't.

I don't care. It's actually racist to make comments like that. So I don't know. There's no such thing as perfect, even when everything is lined up on a silver platter for you. There's just not. And you would have been great.

The other thing that I think that I did is in my 20s, 30s, I saw my career as my life purpose. And now at my age, I was like, man, this career is great, but there's something so much more amazing than having an amazing career and making a lot of money. And so that was the. other mistake that i made is that you know family and kids is real wealth uh not what's in your bank account what kind of house you live in what kind of summer how she you know

That's not real wealth. And so total miscalculation, misread, you know, you grow up. So how do you, how do you, that sounds dramatic and I don't mean it to be, but how do you live with that? Because that is a huge regret. Uh, you just, for me, you just like, you remember Paul in the Bible and he wasn't married and he devoted. his life to Jesus Christ. And now it's probably rougher for me than Paul, but maybe not. I've lived such a worldly life for a long time.

And so, again, you develop habits and things you get enjoyment from that maybe aren't the most Christian. And so, I don't know. You just. You know, you focus on other things. You focus what I focused on. You know, I think my friends, you know, my guy friends from. Ball State or even high school would tell you like, man, Whitlock's incredible to my kids.

They all call him Uncle Jason and blah, blah. And so you just start pouring into other people's kids. You start pouring into your sister's kids, your brother's kids. That's huge. Yeah. That's a blessing. Yeah. Your friends' kids. Again, I think they'll be here this weekend. I got a housewarming party going on. But, you know, these guys, their kids all love me because. How do you spoil them?

Money. I mean, that's what kids, you know. You got any extra Uncle Jason? Yeah. You just, you know, and again, like some of them, maybe I've only met once or twice. Really? But. When they graduate, Uncle Jason's coming through or just on a random. With my friends, I don't do anything nice for them. I do nice things for their kids. And so, or, you know, maybe I might do something nice for their wives, but mostly it's just their kids.

So it's just random acts of kindness. That feels good. There's not enough of that. I mean, that's huge. Who are your best friends? The guys I played football with at Ball State.

There's about seven of us that are in a text thread pretty much every day. And then even some guys that are not in a text thread. My high school, my best friend from high school, a guy named Willie Clark. My brother is my best friend. You know, Dante, the kid, the Ball State football player, because Dante's got to be. 35, 36 now. Guys I work with, TJ Moe, John Hadley. We got this young kid named Luke.

Luke's thing started working for us when he's 20. He's 22 now. And he had some issues that our environment has helped. A lot. It's like his mother was in town last week and brought me some homemade baked bread. It's like one of the most amazing things. And so I've met his mom, met his dad. And they're so appreciative of the environment that we have with Fearless that it's helped their son work through some issues and mature. And so, you know, Tiffany, my assistant.

You know, she talks too much, but I love her to death. You know, I got some friends here that I don't see often enough. But, you know, I met Tiffany through Steve Ford. A guy who owns Winners and Losers or Losers and Duck Blind. I got a lot of friends, good friends, but I'm a quiet guy. That, you know, my friends complain that, you know, I don't talk enough. I don't call or, you know, you know, I'm more laid back.

then I appear on camera. You know, when the camera comes on, I'll do my thing. But after that, I just kind of like to chill. I feel like you're protective of your friends, too. Without question. They take a lot of heat. The people that, you know, my friends and, you know, because most of these guys, not all, but most of these guys are black guys. You know, they hear from other black friends with Whitlock or what they they they have to spend some time defending me. And so I don't.

Yeah, I don't like to. My brother, he can't do nothing about it. He's got my name. He looks like me. But, yeah. But my friends will say they don't need protection. Yeah. Because, one. Take like Willie Clark, you know, he's kind of, it's not that he agrees with everything I said, but he's kind of gotten defiant about like, you got a problem with Whitlock? What's he done?

You can disagree with him, but there's nothing you can say he's done. And you know what kind of a friend he's been to me and a bunch of other people and blah, blah, blah. You think Whitlock doesn't like black people? You know what he's done with my kids or what? This is what all my friends say. Really? The guy that my kids swear by? Those are real friends. Have you lost a lot of friends? I've definitely lost some friends.

I've definitely lost some friends. I draw a level of heat that's too hot for some people, and that's why I'm not upset. And then I withdraw from some people because... I think that they're too unaware of what the heat around me could eventually lead to.

and they're just too unaware. And so I just keep them at a safe distance so they don't have anything to talk about because I've been burned by guys that I think are good friends of mine that... uh just don't know what they don't know and so there'll be somewhere talking about me and then the next thing i know uh someone that hates me is is talking about me through them

you know there's a i i hate to say it because it'll probably he'll probably see it and get but like the someone was at a barbershop somewhere with cory holcomb talking about me this was years ago and This was back when I was more worldly. And they were...

They were in a conversation with Corey Holcomb. Oh, yeah, Woodlock's my friend. We went to Ball State together, blah, blah, blah. Next thing I know, Corey Holcomb doesn't like me. We used to be cool, but he doesn't like me. Next thing I know, he's on his show. talking about me and talking about what this friend of mine inadvertently said about me or told him about me. And so I just, there's...

And you know this, probably not to the degree that I do, but there's complications with being friends with people that are under attack. And most people just aren't aware.

They just think, oh, well, this is just like it was when we were in high school. This is like it was when we were in college. I was like, nah, it ain't really like that. Did you see Charlie Kirk get killed? Do you see the people that this system... that we've created this very corrupt system we're making millionaires out of absolute nut jobs idiots uh who believe in violence we're giving we're turning over power

to them. We've made Matt Barnes a shot caller in the media space. Guy's a nut. He's an idiot. Steven Jackson, a nut and an idiot. Somehow the system has decided that those guys are industry leaders and people that... We should be building up platforms and making them the standard. That's one of the reasons I moved to Tennessee, and it's one of the reasons why I moved the way that I do.

A couple of weeks ago, Joy Taylor was on someone's show talking trash about me and talking about, she gave off some indications like that her or somebody has been tracking me. And she's an idiot that's attached to other idiots. And again, but it's like, no, I moved to Tennessee for a reason. We can all carry guns. And if you come in my house.

No one's going to bat an eye if I kill you. It won't be no George Zimmerman situation down here. And so, you know, it is what it is. Two things. Do you worry about your safety in general? Yes and no, but not really just because I feel confident that God is protecting me and if it's my time to go, it's just my time to go.

No, I don't spend a lot of time wearing it, but I do spend a lot. You know, I don't move the way I used to. I used to love to be standing over a... craps table in las vegas very accessible to the world just love to walk the las vegas strip strip i used to love to go to strip clubs and be at them until 3 and 4 a.m in the morning

I don't do any of that. Most of that's out of religious conviction, but it's also like, no, I can't be moving where the idiots move because I'm not an idiot. Definitely not an idiot. I will agree. Listen, you are as tough as nails. You've got a really thick skin. And you're still human. And you have more of a heart than you probably want people to know about. Or that they have been able to see because of the kind of clips that go viral, etc. How much of those attacks, the...

losses of friendship, the words that people that you really have poured into and then they've used against you, how much of that has hurt? Some of it has hurt in terms of... You befriend people. You help people. And, you know. It's disappointing because you go, can I trust this person? You never know who you can trust. I'll give the example of the young kid that used to work at Deadspin, Greg Howard, that wrote the...

long hit pieces on me for Deadspin. I was nothing but nice to that kid. He wrote some article that... said he was in a hospital bed, and I yelled and screamed at him. He was on his deathbed. And I called him, and I was like, Greg. I have the email. Let me read it back to you. The email you sent to me thanking me for how nice I was to you when you were in the hospital. How could you write this story? And, you know.

He didn't have a good answer other than, you know, they made me or they forced me or, you know, blah, blah, blah. But, yeah, you go through, and it's not that me and Greg Howard were close. I'm not even sure if I was ever – yeah, I don't think I was never in a room with him. But we were friends over the – he was a young guy in Jerusalem looking for insight, advice from me, help up the ladder. And then I could – you know, I'm not going to call this name because I think it's what they're –

looking for, but a very good friend of mine in the journalism business that climbed way up high in the journalism business because of me. And I would help them write their pieces. I gave them a job. And I've read things that this person has said about me. And I'm like, holy cow, man, I used to sit.

at his house and talk with him and his wife and his kids about their kids. And I would talk in private with him about things that were going on with him and his wife. And this is what he has to say about me. It's all because he's left wing and I'm perceived to be right wing, but I'm really just a Christian. I, so. It, yeah, it'll shake your trust and confidence and make you, again, that's why I value my friends from high school and my friends from college so much.

You know, they've been with me from the get go. They understand me and they've been hearing me say things that are considered crazy ever since I was 15, 16, 17 years old. But, yeah, it has – the betrayals have hurt. And, you know, I just had – now, I will say on a positive note, one of my best friends from Kansas City that's –

Pretty hardcore left wing. He quit speaking to me. And he just circled back about a month ago. Really? Yeah. And, you know, I introduced him to his wife. Wow. And we kind of. What did he say? Just he wanted to reconnect the friendship and that he missed me. And I was like, hey, man, I miss you too. And, you know, I appreciate you calling. But, you know, we probably went five years without speaking. He just.

Quit talking to me over Trump. Have you ever considered, through all the ups and downs, have you ever considered toning it down a little bit? No. No. I can't. Let me take it. Maybe I have, but I just can't. It's not in me. And if my mother were sitting here or my brother, they could tell you things I was saying at eight, nine years old. You've always been this way. Yes, that this is just...

Who I am. But when people come after you. And then more importantly, when it costs friendships or relationships. Because for me, that's when I have sometimes been like, oh gosh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then you run away and you try to fix it. And then it's like, you know, when you're...

When you want to be liked. Yeah. You know, all these things that, then that's one of the beauties of getting older. When you're, when you have a five in front of your age, you're like, okay, you don't want to be my friend because of my opinion. Goodbye.

That is the beauty of being old people. It really is. Because old people just don't care. No. It doesn't mean we lose that humanity, that part of us. But it's like, okay, I thought our friendship was deeper. I thought our relationship was deeper and our history mattered more. And so I think the realization maybe initially stings. And then you say, okay, next. That friendship was for a season or whatever. I feel like you've done that a lot. Yeah, I've definitely.

I've definitely had to do that. But, again, there's a group. You know, Todd Fennell, my roommate in college, all five years. There's a group around us, Ralph Wise and Tim Walton, Stan Young. And I've been friends with these guys since 1985. Chuck Kelly, I think, came in 1986. Frank Barnes came in 1986. There's been a group that, again, since 1986, we've been, 85, 86, we've been friends, and it's been unshakable. And so...

There's been some turnover for sure. Yeah. But I can honestly, it's just like my friend from Kansas City that I was talking about. I don't care that he's left wing. our friendship was bait and he actually said this it was bait we love sports and love talking about sports and we used to love chasing women together he's married now and so that was but we had a friendship that was

you know, to me, I thought was unbreakable, even through the disagreements over politics. And, you know, from my perspective, he may have a different take. on it than i do but you know he gave up on the friendship he just couldn't he couldn't understand why i didn't hate trump and i would always be how could i hate trump he you know first of all

You know me as well as anybody. I really don't care that much about politics. And then two, I would be like, what has Trump done that I haven't done? All the things they're accusing Trump of. I was like, and so. When I was hanging out at Diamond Joe Strip Club, what was I doing that Trump hasn't done? When I was, when we would take, we used to go, this dude went to the ESPYs with me twice. And you know, what did we do on those ESPY trips?

or at the bachelor parties that I threw, or at anything that Trump hasn't done. You just got to come up with something stronger than, you know, Trump's a bad guy. Because I'm like, Trump... Talks like my father, talks like my uncle, talks like the guys that I loved at my dad's bar, the Masterpiece Lounge that catered only to older, you know, 40 to 50 year old black men.

working class guys. They all talk, sounded like Trump. They all had the same philosophy on chasing women as Trump. You know, and so like my mother, she can't stand Trump. And I'm like, how's he different than Uncle John? And my uncle.

It's her brother. It was her favorite person on the planet. She has no answer for it. Well, most of them don't, which is why I think your friend runs away. And so many people shut you down because there's not an argument. They just are told not to like him, and they don't like the way he talks, which is what Stephen A is.

admitted was his sole reason, his primary reason for not voting for Trump but voting for Kamala was because I don't like the way he says things. Like, people need to just get over themselves. But they run from the actual facts, which is policies.

Right. What he's doing. What he's not accepting. For Stephen A. who says... And at least as a journalist, he's got some locker room experience. He says he was some sort of athlete. And this is why I question all these athletes from LeBron and everybody else. I was like, y'all been in locker rooms your whole life. And you think Trump?

Oh, Trump's a president, so he should talk different than I do inside of a locker room. Because everything Trump has said sounds like what gets said in a locker room. I do agree that there's a line of being presidential. The things they're accusing him of, he wasn't president when he said these things. No, I agree. But with Stephen A and...

Many millions of people, they have a problem with just how he talks in general, how he tweets. Let's be more presidential. So, I mean, we're going to compare him to Uncle Johnny. Maybe at the end of the day, to me, I can... I can ignore all that crap because I'm thinking more about who is the best leader for our country. I would rather have mean tweets. Correct.

than anything else hold for a second because i don't want to get you in hot water you may not you may not want to be connected to what i'm about to start over rewind yeah i would rather have mean tweets than same-sex marriage Okay, rewind. So Barack Obama ushered in basically same-sex marriage. After saying that a marriage should be between a man and a woman, he said that first. Yes. And so that to me.

is more problematic than anything trump has tweeted or said about anybody whether it's rosie o'donnell whether it's i can't fanny willis whether it's I don't know. What's the woman that's in trouble? Letitia James, is that right? Oh, the AG. I'd rather deal with that than the ramifications of same-sex marriage. I'd rather... Trump is responsible for the end of Roe v. Wade. I like that. I do too. I'd rather have that than...

Obama speaking well-polished or Hillary, whatever she represents, or Kamala or Joe Biden. It's the things I get from Trump. And the things that I get from Trump, what most people don't have the ability to do, and even Christians, it's like I'm sitting there saying. What does God think about this? Because the things that I want aren't good. The things that Jason Whitlock wants are not good. I've had to acknowledge that. And so I evaluate everything through.

Hey, is this good for God? And so when I look at the end of abortion, I say, oh, it's good for God. And I look at, and this will be controversial for not you, but the audience, anything that moves us away from DEI. And I think that's a good thing. I think God isn't sitting there playing little racial games and trying to put quotas in, blah, blah, blah. He wants all of us. He sees us all.

The same. He's not. He's not sitting there. Well, Trump's a different shade of brown than Jason. And she's not. Sage isn't. As white as Tiffany, he's not doing any of that. And politics, and particularly left-wing politics, makes you do all that. And I don't like it. I reject it. I'm not in politics.

for what's good for me. I'm trying to evaluate it through, does this move us towards what God wants? And I just don't think the Democrats give any thought to that. It's all about, hey, what's in it for me? And some people will listen and say, well, Jason, you got a lot of money. Look at that house you live in and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why you don't care about what's in it for you.

Even when I was poor, and I used to be poor, I didn't look at the world that way. And if anybody would evaluate my life, when you're... Bring your 16-year-old cousin into your home in Kansas City when you got the world by the tail. That wasn't about me. That was about, man, I think God wants you to do this. Josh is a great kid.

You know, I wanted his sister as well to move in. Chisa and Josh, I can remember when they both, my cousin had them. And when they came out of the womb, I was there and was like, I got you. And so the things I did for them, it wasn't about me. And that's, we've turned politics into, and particularly Christians, many Christians have turned politics. What's in it for me?

And our whole life should be what's in it for God. And then he'll provide. I want to end on your Christianity and your faith. Before we do that, this is one thing that. I don't know if it bothers me or not still, but when you put out, and I think it was two years ago, your top 10 greatest sports eye candy in television history. That's in the last few months. That's more recent?

Yeah. Your eye candy list? Yeah, that was recently. Someone did something that triggered that. Oh, and then you took it to another level. I did? Right? Your top 10 eye candy? Yeah, that's on brand for me. I know. I know. Stirring that pot. Listen, and I've heard the things that you've said about Joy Taylor. We're talking women in general. You mentioned women and your past life, et cetera, too. But...

You know that's poking the bear when you're like, oh, we're going to talk about Joy Taylor and her chest, and that's the only reason why she was there, and she's shoving it in your face when you were on set with her back in the day. Those are facts. That's what Joy Taylor was doing. I mean, that's a fact. That's what Joy Taylor would go on TV every day with her breasts out. That wasn't an accident. And they're fake.

I like fake breasts. I don't mean that in a derogatory fashion. I really don't. But she bought them. She shows them off. That was her marketing tool. Did you tell her it made you uncomfortable? No, I avoided Joy Taylor because I could see it a mile away. Like, this is trouble. And, you know, this is 2016, I think. And so it was. Really coming out of the ESPN experience from 2013 to 2015 is what made me say, I got to get right with God. And if I don't, I'm going to get destroyed. And so.

When I meet Joy Taylor in 2015 or 16, I'm in a mindset of like, I got to come up from out of my old ways because I'm going. to destroy myself and destroy my career if I don't come up out of my old ways. And so when I saw Joy Taylor, I was like, that's trouble, stay away. And so I did. And they wanted to put her on the show with me. And I was like, no.

Why? Because she didn't have anything to offer other than her looks. And I was going to do a show with more substance than that. And then, based off of... My old behavior, me sitting next to half black, half white girl with big cans and a pretty face, I was going to do something stupid. And at some point, it was just going to happen. And I was like, I don't want to do something stupid, so just stay away from joy. I was going to say something overtly flirtatious. I was going to, you know.

I don't think I would have done it, but I'm capable of smacking her on the rear end at some point or whatever. I mean, that's the kind of idiot I used to be. So you would have fallen into temptation and you didn't want that around. No, I wanted to do a show, stay in a little safe space. And there's a way that men talk about sports that we talk about it differently with women. And I was like, I don't want to be like everybody else. Every show has.

a woman on the show. And I'm like, I can't have the discussions I want to have if there's a woman here. Which means you can't have them when the camera's rolling in general if you're on network TV. Yes, but I wanted to be the same person off camera that I was on camera. And that's what made, particularly once Marcellus got in there, because I love Cal Herb, but he was... afraid my conversation was too hot he's tied to too many safe brands and things like that but once marcellus got there

It's like, no, there's a conversation I want to have that only guys can have. Just like there are conversations that women can only have. That is just a fact. And once you put a woman in the room, in the environment... Guys start thinking differently. And they start thinking about, well, I'll make sure I don't say anything.

that eliminates the possibility that I could have sex with her. Well, how about you guys just control yourselves and not let those things come out of your mouths? We're not meant, because it interferes with the truth.

Yes, we can. And that's what everybody's doing. They're making sure they don't say anything that offends women. And I have a son. I have a 21-year-old son who's in college. And it's just called... professionalism number one when we're at work and the cameras on and self-control because it's not like women don't think things too it's just there's a time and place and in front of when you were at Fox

Fox Sports or FS1 at this point when that's happening. There were still many limitations. You couldn't say most of the things on your mind even without a woman at the table while you're at FS1, correct? I don't know if I struggled that much. Because I just found clever ways to say it or just like...

You're not supposed to talk bad about Colin Kaepernick. I talked bad about Colin Kaepernick. I'm talking specifically about women and this example of how different it has to be if they're at the table with you. Look, if I get into the Colin Kaepernick conversation, if there's a woman, particularly the kind of women that most of these networks are putting on, they're going to play some sort of emotional Colin Kaepernick card, or they're going to try to push my buttons.

But so did Max Kellerman. And so did Acho, whatever his name is. And that's why I didn't want to be on with Max Kellerman. Yeah. I'm just saying it's not like it's just the emotional women. It's the woke men who are saying things that, I mean, they're more sensitive than I was the majority of the time. Take what's her name? Michelle Beadle. She wasn't on the same show as Stephen A. Smith. But Stephen A. Smith said something imprecise about. Ray Rice. Ray Rice. And Michelle Beadle.

went on a show and turned it into something that it really wasn't. Correct. And that's what I wanted to avoid. Because... The women, that's what they have to offer. No, but she wasn't even there that day. She wasn't on that show. She was watching from home. I know. Joy Taylor, in my opinion, capable. I'm a big... Target. Everybody hates me. And so if you can go on the show and stick it to Jason Whitlock, now you've made Twitter fame. I was the one joy. I get it. All I'm saying is that.

Everybody has to adjust when the cameras are on. And maybe Joy Taylor is a bad example. Let's say it's me who is going to be your host. And you know I'm going to come in and be professional and also be prepared. So let's keep it real. Here's where it started with me and FS1. I was like, I'm not putting some young eye candy on my show. It's dangerous and blah, blah, blah. And so I said, I'll compromise with you.

Bring Bonnie Bernstein in. Let's try Bonnie Bernstein. And I was all for it. And they were all against it. They were complete. Like, I was nuts. Why? Because she's a journalist? Because she's a journalist. I'm going to keep it real with you since you asked. I think it was because, hey, I'm not interested in sleeping with Bonnie Bernstein as an executive.

And so I don't want you to bring her in. She's passed her prime. I could bring in a 26-year-old or a 27-year-old. Well, we know that that happens in every industry. Certainly when women, when we age out. FS1, I know for a fact. That's what Jamie Horowitz was thinking. And I learned after the fact, that's probably what Charlie Dixon was thinking. And so...

They were completely against Bonnie Bernstein. And I've tried to bring in Bonnie Bernstein. I was okay. We brought her in for tryouts. And then when I brought in Bonnie Bernstein and Bonnie, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I'm just keeping it real. But Bonnie Bernstein, same age as me, she went too far. Now she's trying to tell me what to do. Now she's trying to dictate what the show was going to be.

She wouldn't fall in line. I was creating the opportunity. The industry had clearly said, hey, we're over Bonnie Bernstein. And I was trying to breathe life back into her and bring her back. And as soon as she got there, and I don't remember all the details, but the next thing you know, Bonnie Bernstein is the expert and she's telling me what I should do, what the show should be about.

And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, ugh. When they objected, I didn't put up much of a fight. I tried. Bonnie didn't. And Bonnie, I'm telling you, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I respect Bonnie. She was... one of the goats with what she did for so many years. And she's incredibly, and she's a friend of mine. So I can't speak to that. And she's a friend of many people. I can't speak to that. I think the big picture with me is that. Her test with me was great. Well, she's.

Brilliant in many ways. Because she could keep up. She'd been in it long enough. She's been there. Yeah, and she was a real, she'd been there long enough. She is a journalist. Yes.

I think at the end of the day, when we talk about the eye candy stuff, and listen, I grew up with all boys. I grew up with brothers. I grew up in locker rooms throughout my entire career. I probably, many would say, I should be offended.

by a lot more things than I am. It's very difficult to offend me, really. So I look at the eye candy stuff and let me have the top 10 list of whatever. And I laugh because I'm like, yep, typical guy. And then sometimes I'm like, well, gosh, should I think deeper about that? where someone as smart as Whitlock and many other people are putting up these lists of the hottest women. And I'm like, is it necessary? Is it clickbait? Who was on that list? What was that?

I mean, you're going to go back through like the Aaron Andrews and all the people through the years. Yeah. You know, is it boredom? Is it shock value? Why did I tweet that out? Yeah. I like to have fun. It's humorous. It's what guys talk about. I'm still a guy. Everything, every thought of mine. And it should be, but it's not every thought of mine should be more pure, but it's just not. And Sage, I got to be on TV in a high-profile position. Look at me.

Look at me. And then go compare it to the beauty standards that women are held to. Much higher. To get on TV. And so it's... Everybody knows that beauty is part of the game. And I could sit here and rattle off the two or three women that have jobs that didn't have to pass the beauty standard, but I don't want that smoke and I don't want to be disrespectful.

We'll save that for when we're done. Go ahead. The overwhelming majority of the women that are on sports TV are attractive. Sage, if you look like me. You wouldn't have been on ESPN as a woman.

Listen, you know, I've gotten in trouble for talking about women in locker rooms as well for, I believe, the standard that we should be holding ourselves to. And how you dress matters. And then what happened? I get all the women in the business saying, I'm going to dress how I want. My skirt's this short. It's like, okay, fine.

fine, but you know the environment that you're walking into and I'm never condoning certain behavior and remarks while we're trying to do our jobs because I lived it for many, many years. But I always say, I say this to my daughters, what's your goal?

What's your goal with what you're putting on? Because we're really smart. We know what we're doing. So I firmly believe because I think I did it for many years. Now, look, I get to be all comfortable in fuzzy socks and jeans and put my hair up and not care as much. But I think that we can. You don't have to sacrifice being attractive and looking good and caring for professionalism. They can coexist.

You can really know what the hell you're talking about and come prepared. I felt I had to be more prepared than any man that I worked next to from the moment I got out of college, in college, because guys in the dorms and IU are like, really? What do you know about sports? And then they do the trivia quizzes to prove that you're dumber than they are and I would win the trivia contest. So it's always been that way. I get disappointed with what I see a lot.

right now and have for years. The standards should be higher for ourselves. Forget about you, for ourselves as women.

We're in a different place. This is when I sound like the old man to get off my lawn. And I'm okay with it because I will always contend that those who came before me, the Robin Roberts of the world who were doing it before me when no women were, and certainly no women who looked like her, she was... The one person I had to look up to, like, oh, I could do that. I reject that completely. Why? In terms of, because take my sports writing career.

It's all based off of a guy named Mike Royko. And he wasn't even a sports writer. He was just a columnist for the Chicago Tribune when I was a kid. Some old Polish white guy. And so this whole deal of like, oh, I got to see someone that looks like me in order to have these aspirations or do any of this. I just reject. My whole career is based off Mike Royko.

No, I agree with you, but this is how I've always said it. I said it on stage at an event the other day in Orlando. Women, number one. And there were so few. I mean, I decided on this career when I was... 12 years old in 1984, watching the 84 Olympics. And there were no women. I mean, Phyllis George, what year was that? Gail Gardner called an NFL game in the 80s. Jane Kennedy and people, they were around. Yeah, but...

1984. You can count them on one hand. Yeah. And it was very few and far between. So it was just in general. And then I already had the dream before I even... Robin Roberts was like early 90s at ESPN, right? And on through then. So I agree with you. You don't have to see someone, but in a space like this where it is, I mean, I'm not going on to talk about WNBA at that time because there was no such thing. I want to talk about football.

I don't want to talk about the NBA. So at that point, it was unheard of. And then my experiences in Indianapolis where my first sports job was and with the Pacers in that locker room and the Colts. just post you know jeff george and jim harbaugh was the quarterback your boy jeff like i was still the only one for years and so it was a different the only one though woman and it was different I'm not a woman, period. Not race. Not this woman. Gotcha. And that alone, there were different rules.

The locker rooms change the time they're open, the length because of women. What happened with the woman in New England? Point being, I'm with you. But at the end of the day, I want you to read. We had to at that time work harder. I don't know that that's the case now. I don't agree at all with that now. It's actually easier in many ways. And I would, for minorities, including black males, it's not as difficult. They're getting fast-tracked.

That's just a fact. It is a fact. But I will say this. I would love for you to read this. Have you read this piece, The Great Feminization? Bye. I think her name is Helen Edwards. No. It was popular over the last five or six days. So we're in mid-October. I retweeted it. You can find it. But this is a woman. that writes a long piece on basically the negative impact of all these women entering into male spaces.

in the workforce. And it's... I'd love to read that because I think I'm going to agree with her about a lot. I really mean it. When people get all sensitive and they're offended, I'm like... really should i be you start to question yourself and the answer is no toughen up stop being so soft like i i truly believe that so i'll i'll text you after i read it um

Because I do think there has been so much damage done. And when we're to the point and at any place of work where a man can't say, gosh, I really love that dress. You look great. That's a problem. That's ridiculous. She's arguing, it's like created and drives wokeness. Of course. And it's a long piece. When I say long, 15 minutes to read or something like that. Very long for me. But it's been celebrated. I think last I saw, maybe it had six, seven million views. Wow.

over Twitter or whatever, but everybody's been talking about it and it's sparking, it's legalizing a conversation that I totally think needs to be legalized because it's damaging America. But I think that, I agree with you, Jason, but I think that this is kind of part of what we believe as conservatives, really, is that, like, why are we all in our feelings all the time? Just stop. And that's for...

so many things. So I am going to guess before reading it that I'll agree with a lot of it and still be able to look back on those times when it was different and scary. And I did have to work harder and you know what? I loved it. I wouldn't change it. It's her argument, though. Well, you'll read it and we'll talk about it. But the harmful effects. Because I think 55% of the New York Times, she says, is now women. And that that's dramatically changed the journalism coming out of.

The New York Times and all across. And I see it in sports media. It's. And there's no one saying, hey, we got a course correct. No one's examining the ramifications. Conversations about truth, they're very difficult. And they're not for people whose feelings get hurt easily. And now, because women are so influential, men's feelings now are getting hurt very easily. Correct. And then men are quieter and they're not leading.

the way we need them to lead. It's all backwards, but I do think it's coming back. I really do believe it's coming back, and that's only because of what happened a year ago at the election. I hope that it's coming back. I do think so. But there's a strong demographic of women, feminists, hardcore, and then there's a lot of men like a Stephen A. and just others that...

They have bowed to the matriarchy in ways that they don't even realize. And to take it all the way full circle where we started at again. That's why a guy in the late 1990s, early 2000s had nothing negative to say about his dad. But in 2025, now his dad is trash and his mother did everything. That's a culture shift that he's probably not even aware of other than he just knows, like, I'm supposed to celebrate the matriarch. I'm supposed to believe my mother is the end all be all.

My dad's sins are the worst sins imaginable, and I must reject him. Jason, you look great, by the way.

I think it's the beard. I think it's the beard. People like the beard. No, no. And you've been so open about your weight struggle. And it's the first shot that people fire at you every time. And you're like... I've been called this forever, and it's like, go for it. Actually, I'm telling you, this isn't a fake thought. I take it as a compliment now. Honestly, I need to correct my weight problem.

But it's like, that's all you got? I've done so well that that's all you have? I've been at this for 30 plus years. I've been controversial. I've been despised. and the best you got is a fat joke, that's a high praise for me. I mean, and I mean that in all sincerity.

You got to have something better than that. As much work as I put out here, as many different things that I've said and done, it's like, beat me up about Jeremy Lin. Something better than, you know, a fat joke because I know I'm fat. what are you trying to do to work on it you said you you're constantly I told you you and your husband you gotta come by my house you can see my home gym really you can look at my refrigerator you can look at you know

Tiffany, am I serious about it? I'm very serious about it. You what? Yeah. You cook. Yeah. Very healthy food. Yeah. But it's. No, that's great. And it is a commitment to a complete and total life change. Right? Yes. Now, again, I struggle, obviously. Yeah. You know, it's a roller coaster, but mostly I've done well. But I clearly need to do better. How old are you? I'm 58.

Okay, so when's your birthday? I should know this. All right. What's your goal right now? My goal would be come April, I need to be 260 pounds. You know, that's about 70 pounds from right now. December, January, March, April. That's seven months or six months. Like five and a half. It's six. Oh, I'm counting April. Yeah. So November, December, and then April's the fourth month. Okay. So a little over, what, 10.12 pounds per month. As much as I work out, that's easy work.

It should be if I do the right thing. We need you. I know. Trust me. We need you in this space. I know. We need your fearlessness.

Or at least I believe it. But you really don't. You just need God. So that's the coolest thing about you with this whole process that I watched you a long time ago. I read you in the Kansas City Star. I lived in Kansas for a while. My dad was stationed at Leavenworth. Dave's dad was stationed there too. I've known about Jason Whitlock for a long time. And your voice is needed. And that evolution, which is what it is.

The last time I saw you was a month ago, right after Charlie Kirk died, in an event at a church in Tennessee where he and his wife were supposed to be on stage. It was going to be you, me, Charlie, and Erica. And you got up there and spoke. loudly and proudly about your faith and what you believe and your failures. That's the part that's been the coolest for me to watch is for you to lead with that, with everything you say now.

even admitting, you know, all the stuff with women and bad habits, et cetera. Like you are bold with your faith. Where does that come from? I was raised in a small church in Indianapolis, discipled mostly by my grandmother, Mama Lovey, and so implanted and instilled in me at a very young age. And then, obviously, I go off into the world and have success in the world and fall into a bunch of bad habits. But I never walked away from my faith.

I just put it on the back burner. And a total mistake. Total mistake. And then in 2013. or 14 i can't remember exactly but i think it was 2013 i get the job at espn to launch the undefeated it's it's like for me a writer That is the ultimate. It's just, man, I'm going to run the undefeated and we're going to do all this great journalism. And it's the cap. It's the peak of my sports writing career. And I got...

completely destroyed or attacked and eviscerated. And it humbled me and I needed to be humbled. And it made me realize, it made me think about, like, why? Everybody knows I'm the best at this. Why would everybody attack me? And it opened my eyes to like, oh, I represent a point of view that I wasn't even fully aware of. I had this biblical point of view that my grandmother in 25th Street Baptist Church put in me.

people could see enough of that. Even though I was living out in the world and doing a lot of sinful things, my worldview was biblical. And so those attacks for two years made me realize like, man, if you don't get right with God.

you're going to get completely destroyed. You've been in denial about who you are, why you're here, why your grandmother invested so much in you, why you... A lot of the things that I said as a kid that baffled my parents or people in my family, it all made sense once I understood what my true purpose is.

After getting let go at ESPN or even just during that process, I was like, man, you got to get right with God. You got to change up your habits. You can't be doing all the same things. And so I just started. going down that path in 2015 and you know made it a point to read my bible and made it a point to pray more often made it a point to go to church, made it a point to, you know, I've watched so many sermons, like YouTube makes it so easy to read the Bible, have the Bible read to you.

watch sermons. And so I just, it was a deal of admitting I can't make it without getting right with God. And so that's just been the path and the journey I've been on ever since. And, you know, here I am. So I got about 10 years deep in taking my faith. far more seriously. It's beautiful. It's really, really cool to watch. And that's what I know makes it easier to accept when people come at you or when relationships end. It really is, you know, there's a...

we know there's a bigger picture. You have made it very clear, you know, that your, your focus in your life now is to really give back through this career. So, and speaking your mind and being fearless. So that.

Plus faith. How do you really want to be remembered? Just someone. stood up for biblical truth. Just that. Someone that stood up for biblical truth and took all the heat that went along with that. I guess if I want the world to remember, I want the credit that, and this is just a worldly ego thing, but I believe I'm the best sports writer.

Maybe ever. What makes you the best? Most sports writers never take... take on the super serious issues and explore, you know, make that part of their brand that, hey, look, there's issues from... Colin Kaepernick to racial issues. I feel like I've taken a lot of bold stances. And so I guess if I were to refine it and remove myself from it and be more Christian, I want to be remembered as like, oh man, Whitlock was the boldest sports writer ever.

because of his biblical worldview, because of his faith in God, because of the way his grandmother discipled him. And that just made him an elite sports. journalist on a you know because most serious journalism is done outside the world of sports that's always been true and and if you actually look at this era of sports writers I apologize for this sounding narcissistic and arrogant. But I look out and see all these people trying to mimic what I did. And they're doing bad versions of it.

But, you know, the pinnacle of my sports writing, the accomplishment or the job at ESPN. was the high point. But the real high point was in 2007 when I wrote the piece about Don Imus and nappy-headed hoes and Oprah Winfrey had me on. And that's when... Like, my critics and the people that were jealous, they all came out of the closet. How dare Oprah put this guy on? And, you know, no sports writer had ever done that. And it...

You know, that was probably, and I was speaking, because people are like, Whitlock, you changed. And I'm like, how? I was like, did you see, what did I get? Super famous for in 2006, 2007, the whole Don Imus deal. Because people are like, you used to be a liberal? And I was like, when? I've been getting this heat forever. When you go look at what I wrote about the Genesis 6, that was one of the original Jesse Smollett type deals in 2006 or 2007 and all that stuff.

I've always been, I've always had the same worldview. I just didn't fully understand where it came from. I had forgotten just how much Jesus was planted in me as a kid. It affected my journalism and my ability to do journalism. And so I've given you a very worldly, non-biblical answer to your question. I gave you a biblical one. And so I just. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. But this is why you're Jason Whitlock. You keep it real no matter what. And I'm grateful from day one.

I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Even though... I didn't drink any of the water. We start this conversation with a nice, beautiful, clean glass of water, and he drops his gum in it. Like... It's about as hard as a rock right now. You want to sip? Yeah, I do. I'm going to drink it all and re-chew my gung. No, you're not. I will so judge you. Tiffany, get your boy. Oh, no, no.

I don't want to be chewing gum during the interview. You don't want to be wasteful. Gum is still good. You're a liar. It is. You're lying in front of everybody right now. I think it's, do they call it mementos or something? Mentos. Mentos, yeah. Not mementos. Thanks, Whitlock. Thank you, Saves. Thank you. Awesome. So fun.

This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.