I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners on which this episode is being recorded, the combo marry people. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Today I'm your host, Georgie Stevenson, and this is the
Rise and Conquer Podcast. This is the podcast where which have mindset, self development and becoming your higher self mix soon with a lot of laughs, plus behind the scenes of my life running two businesses and being among Think of us as the perfect combo of brunch with your besties mixed with self development. No matter where you are in your journey, We're here to help you be curious, pull yourself out, and embrace radical self awareness.
If you're ready to get into.
The driver's seat of your own life and stop letting life past you by, then you're in the right place. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the R and C Potty Happy Tuesday. Today we have the most amazing episode for you. I interviewed Steph Claire Smith and Laura Henshaw from Keep It Cleaner and we chatted about their new book, You Take Care. It was so incredible chatting to these girls. Oh my god, I love them on social media and they just wowed me even more when I chatted to them.
And I think you guys are just going to.
Be obsessed with this episode. So what we chat about today is the power of vulnerability, the four major shame triggers, mum, guilt, being anti before and afters putting in an extraordinary effort. I love that we spoke about that too, major well hustle culture, and.
So much more. It was honestly such a beautiful.
I cannot wait for you guys to hear it. But first, a Tear, what is your weekly recommendation.
Because we do it on Tuesday now, I have to ah, sure, so number one is Georgie's collection?
All right?
You can have to.
Honestly be best pre workout and proteins labor. And I, guys, I'm nagging every day to get this restocked, and she keeps yelling at me, so I don't think it's happening.
Every time I.
Walk into the podcast room, A Tear just looks over at me and it's like, surely you're restocking, like you have to shit, because like you know, they ask about like how the launchment and the sales and you know that sort of thing.
And then A Tear is like, well, sure you can see, surely you're restocking.
If that's flavor, I'm like, no, a tear hashtag integrity.
No, trust me, guys.
We have so much fun stuff in the pipelines for and h it's just it's not on the calendar and it is. It's like, if I tell you, guys that's limited edition, it has to be into edition, which I respect. Yes, upset, but respect upset.
And it's also.
Fun because it's like, these flavors come out and they're special, and it's going to remind you about this time you've your life so stuck up you can reminisce about this the time. And also just an fyi, it's over halfway sold out a tear, So if you know the RNC community, do you want to stock up?
Just letting you know, now's the time, we'll put a link in a deal. Will put her affiliate link. Not even joking, guys, I don't have an affiliate Just sure tea. I'm sure will be interested. I better I be interested to see what the back ends tears like. Just use this link the fifteen t fifteen I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What's your other recommendation?
Vine my second recommendation. I saw this TikTok and I will pop that link in the show notes for the TikTok, But it has days to add to your calendar each month, and I thought, since it's the first of or just past the first of the month, this would be the
perfect time to bring it up. So one whole spa day, one day without socials, one day spent outdoors, one day with friends to check up on them, one movie night or dinner party, one day spent being a tourist in neighborhood cities, one day entirely to help someone else, one day to learn something new even if it's not directly beneficial to your life. And one me day dedicated to doing things that keep my energy healthy.
Oh my god, I love this.
Yeah, So I think just trying to put things like that into your month, but even trying to get half of them in, just so you have some variety and you're actually feeding all those buckets or feeding all your cups, filling your cup.
That's my recommendation. I love that. My recommendation is my monthly intentions.
So I actually put this on Instagram already, but I wanted to like explain them a bit more because I really like them this month and they were like made very intentionally, but the vibe for the month. So first one, give myself the generous interpretation I give others. I'm doing this new thing where I'm giving everyone the and I've been doing it for a couple of months now, the most generous interpretation of For example, if you know, a tea says she's sick, I'm not going to be.
Like she's just trying to get out of work or like.
You know, yeah, you can go to those low vibe thoughts. It's almost the natural human thing to go to the low vibe thoughts because it's a protection mechanism. Yeah, so you don't get like fooled all that sort of you're prepared,
you're prepared. But I have been really leaning into this concept of being over generous with everyone in regards to you know, for example, me and Tim had to fight the other night, and a conversation, not a fight, and it's like I said to him, like, no, no, I believe that you had the best intentions.
But I'm just bringing this up so we can get clear on our boundaries, but like love that.
Yeah, so like making like really not going to the most loath vibe thought. And I've been doing that for a couple of months and it has been incredible just for me personally. But I realize I do it to everyone else, but not to myself, So I go straight to the low vibe. Oh you know, you know, the shame or guild of you should have worked out, or you shouldn't have.
Said that, or you know, just the stories in your head.
And even though I'm getting better, So this month, I'm like, no, I'm gonna be very overgenerous with myself.
I love that so much.
Yeah, so that's the first one.
I'll second one, intentionally take time to celebrate myself. So, you know, had some really big exciting things happened, and I just I don't, I don't celebrate myself. But I'm like being really okay, No, I'm gonna celebrate myself. I'm gonna, you know, take myself to dinner or buy myself something or even just sit in the feeling of celebrating myself and not getting it from other people. Yes, so usually try and get it from other people.
Yeah.
The next one, my boundaries don't have to make sense to others. I'm working on my boundary so much right now. You guys watch out, And a huge thing is like they don't have to make complete sense to others, Like I don't have to then explain them and try and make them sense to others. It's like, I just get to do what's best for me. And the next one,
stop pretending I don't know the answer. So we went through this the other day a tear when I was picking someone new for the team, and it was like, I know the answer, Like stop trying to go around in circles or like pretend. It's like no, I get to actually just know the answer. I get to tap into my intuition. And I think a lot of the time we poll other people or we think that we can't go straight to the answer because it's just not.
What we usually do.
Yeah, but I'm like, now you stop pretending, George, you know the answer. I love that, And even that sentence, I'm like, yeah, of course they do.
So that's the cool thing I'm leaning into.
And then the last one knowing like my truest expression is always the way, And that was just really solidified recently in the NH event, because the whole event was about the seven Rules for being Your Best Friend, which has really come from my self development journey.
The last couple of months.
And you know, that was and h's biggest launch and it did so well. And it's like it was me just being me and really locking in who I am and expressing that. And I think sometimes like I forget that. It's like things get to be you know, when you lock into your authenticity and when you lock into yourself, like things get.
To be really amazing.
And that was such a cool moment to be like, oh no, that that is so true, Like when I lock into me, it gets.
To be really incredible.
I love that. Yeah.
So then my monthly intentions I wanted to explain just because the Instagram post was a bit vague, but I always tell you guys everything, and I really encourage you guys to sit down and write some intentions. I love that you brought that in a tier two because it's like that's so cool that it's like, let's actually just be intentional.
With the month.
Yeah, so just take this intro and get your notebook out and add all this stuff into.
Your your month. I love it. And then get ready for the best episode.
Let's get into it.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time.
So excited to have you back on the show, Laura and Steph, so excited to have you on the show for the first time.
Thank you.
It's so nice to finally meet you. And yeah, to come on the show with big fans and.
Guys, this is incredible, so incredible.
Thank you.
You should be so proud.
Me my producer have both read it and are obsessed with it, and it's just.
So so beautiful.
So I just wanted to say it be congratulations because I could definitely understand that.
You know, birthing a book is a huge, huge thing.
So you guys, yeah, it's it's really really something to be proud of.
Oh that seriously means so much. Thank you.
We yeah, we really appreciate it. I think when you write a book, it's it's such an interesting process because you know, it takes such a long time and you write it almost like a year and a half before it comes out, and so and we signed off and it would have been around August last year was the last time, like it off it went, and so then there's this grating period of like, oh my goodness, it's done. We can't do anything to it, we can't change it
like it is. It is what it is, right, and then it's when it comes out to the world, it's like will it be received, you know the way that we hope so to hear that feedback is so special, So thank you so so much.
No, No, of course, yeah, I think that would be super interesting because especially like these days, you know, we put something out on the Internet and it's kind of like that instant gratification and that instant response, and you can kind of you know, like see that response and then you know, tweak things and be able to go from there. Bit like a book, it's such like a physical it's set, it's done things. So I can imagine there being like a bit of like anticipation for that.
There's a lot of anticipation.
Well, first of all, I love that the book is like it's split into three parts, so I know it's like mind, body, and connection. And I absolutely love the beginning of the book where you speak about the fact that health and wellness go beyond sleeping well, eating nutritious foods, exercising and meditating, and you really wanted to offer a deeper,
holistic support in the book. So I'm wondering, like, what motivated you to include such a wide variety of topics in the book, And why do you think it's important to take that, you know, perspective when it comes to our health, because you know that's what you guys are about.
Yeah, thank you so much.
I think for us, like a lot of the inspiration actually comes from the community, the communication between our community, So all of the conversations that we see going on there and wanting to find confidence in applying for a
new job or needing relationship advice. There's so many different topics that come up in that community because they all understand that like having that connection with one another and that support is definitely a huge aspect to their mental health, which you know, overall is such a huge part of our health overall. So I think as you go through your twenties, you realize that there is so much more to your health than sleep, you know, sleeping well, eating
nutritious foods, and exercising. I know at times in my life where I've been able to truly prioritize exercise, you know, eat really really well and not necessarily have any trouble sleeping. There still could be something going on that is making
me mentally unwell or really unhappy. Might be financial stress, It might be something going on with family and a connection of mine, And so you realize that there is just so many other pillars I suppose that come to our overall health, and they're all just as important, and
it differs from person to person. So that's why we're wanting to cover so much in the book, because they've come from our lived experiences, our conversations on the podcast, talking to the community members, and then also obviously getting experts to contribute to the book was super special as well. But I think for us it was like, if someone can read this book front to back and relate to some things, they might be able to relate.
To a lot of it.
They might be able to relate to certain chapters or certain topics, But if they can kind of doggy tag the corner or highlight it and come back to things, I think that's what's really special to us. I know I will be revisiting this book like both in my own writing, almost like a journal of my own, but also the chapters that really inspired me kind of even get through the writing process. Some of the chapters that
Laura to I found truly inspiring. So I think it's just going to be one of those really cool books that has the touches on basically anything to help someone find their feel good.
I love that so much. And it was it was so insightful because You're so right. There was parts where I was like, oh my god, I can resonate. It's actually funny. There was quite a few parts where I'm like,
oh my god, I'm literally processing that right now. And then there was parts where I was like, that's just really insightful to know what someone else could be going through, because you know, I'm in my twenties and I feel like this is really the part where I'm like not only finding out about, you know, my problems and what I'm processing, but also what other people are too.
And I just love that you encompass that in the book.
Thank you. That means that means so much.
Well, speaking of that like something that I was I'm currently really diving into at the moment, and so I love that in it was in the book was vulnerability.
So in the book, I love that.
You kind of explain that, you know, there's so much power in being vulnerable. But it doesn't necessarily mean revealing all our deeper, darker secrets. I would love to hear why you think there's a hidden power in being vulnerable and if you have any tips for the R and C community on how it can be a bit more vulnerable, because it is hard because you're like, what do I just tell her on my whole life?
Or you know, how do I not emotionally dump on everyone? Like what is this about?
One hundred percent? And I think it's vulnerability too.
I think I think it's amazing that publicly people are having a lot more i suppose, quote unquote vulnerable conversations than before in open conversations. But I think there's some
whys it have been cross in terms of vulnerability. And this is why I really love Brene Brown's work that she has done on vulnerability, because for a lot of people, I think they might think that in order to be vulnerable, they have to you know, get on a microphone or yell from the rooftops, you know, their biggest secret, as you said, or something that they're really going through. That's really hard, and I think it's really important that to
acknowledge that that's actually not essentially vulnerability. So if I were to come on the podcast and reveals I'm trying to think of an example, just saying I've had an argument with my sister, just as an example. And if I get on the podcast and speak openly about this argument with my sister and how I feel instead of going to my sister and talking to her, that's not vulnerability.
Even though the podcast goes out to you know, tens.
Of thousands of people, it's about going into So I think it's important to listen for any or to remember for anyone listening that you know might not have a platform or on Instagram or whatever, that doesn't mean that you can't be vulnerable. And so the way that we explore it in the book is is, you know, it's applying for a job when you don't know if you're going to get it. It's telling someone that you love them when you don't know if they're going to say
it back. It's apologizing for something that you know you did and you you did wrong and you want to make it right.
And knowing that when you go and when you go.
And say to your friend or for example, with my sister, in that example, when I go and say to my sister.
Hey, I'm really sorry for what I did. I'm really I've hurt you.
That is confronting to do that, right like that, that's vulnerability because I don't know how she's going to react. But I think it is really really important. It's also you know, saying like it's something that Steph and I do in our leadership all the time at kick is with our team, we don't lead in a way that we know everything.
We're very comfortable, you know, we don't know everything. We don't know the.
Answer to this, like let's find it out together. We also don't always get it right. And I think that's
really really important to talk about it. And I think one of the biggest powers is vulnerability, especially in terms of social media, and something that's really important to Steph and and I know you do it so well as well, is wanting people to realize that I think if we kind of position ourselves as these perfect quote unquote people that you know, never have any hard times and then never go through anything tough and never feel uncomfortable or
about conversations or never get anything wrong, that's really not doing everyone that follows us and our community that it's doing them.
A disservice because that's not true.
And I think if we can show that, people that you know might look to us and think that, I mean people do look at look at us everyone and
maybe say, oh, you're successful. And but I think it's really really important to speak about the fact that you don't want your the people that follow you to think that, oh, no, they're successful because they're perfect and I'm not like them and they don't go through all these hard things and they get everything right, because it's kind of then setting up setting them up to not believe that they can
do it. And that's absolutely not the case at all, Like we get so many things wrong and that's okay.
It's just so important. There's so much power in talking about it.
And I think too, it's how you establish real connection with absolutely and that's special.
Yeah, one hundred percent.
I think going back to your point on leadership, I mean, with our team, it's for us, vulnerability is not a weakness and being able to be open to the team about something that we might even be struggling through or not trying to like hide. You know, obviously we're not going to show all of.
That all the time. We don't you know there's a lot that goes on.
You don't want to emotion a damn people trying to find that balancing the balance right, But it's so you want to create a space where I mean, I would hope that anyone in our team would feel comfortable enough to say, hey, I'm not feeling okay today.
They don't necessarily have to go into what's going on in their life, but to feel comfortable in being open. And I think the more that you have these conversations, less taboo they become, and more and more people feel comfortable to be open. And for me, when I'm struggling through anything mentally, I know for sure it's when I don't open up about it. It doesn't have to be to everyone could just beat a Laura, could just be
a Josh. But I know when I bottle it up and I don't think it through or talk it through with anyone else, it it just gets to boiling point and it just gets worse and worse and worse until I implode.
That's so true.
If you keep it all inside, it comes out in like toxic you know, it can come out and like not so great ways. And that's even something like Steph I really resonated when you do, because I have a fifteen month old and I went back to work when she was about four months old, so you know, I'm
going through that whole journey. And then it's really really beautiful when you do your posts about how you know you're struggling with the journey of being a working mum and coming back to work or whether it was breastfeeding and those sorts of things and those moments, it's almost like you then gave me permission to validate that I was also struggling and.
I didn't have to keep this mask on that.
Everything's fine and you know, getting it all done, and it when like we are vulnerable, it gives others that permission to not be perfect. And then it's like it's like this weightlifts like off your shoulders and you're like, oh, I can actually just you know, try and figure this out and not be perfect and it can be fine, which I just I think is so amazing, And you both do that so well on your social media's.
It's really really really incredible.
Thank you, thank you, And we do feel the same way, and I think that's why we often find ourselves, you know, scrolling within our own communities because as much as they're there for each other and talking through things like that, it's it's so beautiful and warming to be a part of that. And I suppose to comment in anything that we can, but also go to them if we if we need something as well. It's the most supportive group
of people. And I think once you find your people that you know, you can open up to and they may or may not have the answers for you and look to be honest, with the book, it is much more of a guide. It's not a rule book. They're not like we haven't like figured life out and like this is it on a platter, this is how you live the perfect life.
It's it's absolutely not the case.
But through lived experience we've found tools and things that have helped us make things better or easier.
And that's what it is.
And it's if it's not the book, then yeah, it's finding your your people or your actions that can help you through those those times. But I do agree whenever you're struggling, I think one of the most comforting things to know is that you're not.
Yeah, it's so powerful.
Another you know bit in the mind section, which I just love that you guys focused on again something I'm going through myself.
Something I resonated with. Who was you know.
Your bit that spoke about shame and how that actually relates to self worth.
And there's this particular paragraph that just.
It spoke to me, and I'm going to include a snippet here.
When shame thrives.
Inside us, it's impossible to decipher the difference between a bad thing that happens because of us and a bad thing that happens because of the uncontrollable external factor. Shame leads us to the belief that we cause the bad thing to happen because we are flawed, and that is what we do. It's like doing multiple equations and many different variables. No matter how many variables and equations you use,
the answer is always the same. No matter what, we find a way to blame ourselves the problem, even when it was caused by something outside our control.
I resonated with this so much.
And I also love that you know, you guys touched on the four major shame triggers you mentioned the book were break up shame, work shame, body shame, and fertility shame. And these are all you know taboo things that you just you don't hear a lot of conversations about because they also have a lot to do with like failure.
And you know, I'm saying quote unquote failure, and I would just love to hear, you know, if you guys had an experience with one of these and what you do to then reframe it and work through it.
Well.
I mean, I think for us we've navigated, I mean, aside from fertility shame, and just for anyone that's listening
and thinking, you know what, what is that? It's when if you do try to feel pregnant often and it's often women, it's something that we do is It's also it's really interesting in the online conversation around fertility generally, if you are struggling to feel pregnant after you know, I think after five tries, that's when the doctor recommends that you go and see fertility specialists stuff to five months.
It's often framed as or women often think that it's it's their fauld and it's their body that's wrong and it's that's why it's not working, when obviously there's that you need in a heater SXU relationship or to make a baby. You need a sperm and the egg, and so that's what fertility shame is that for so for Steph was you know, really lucky that she was able to have Harvey and didn't go through that, And same for me, It's not something that I've been through yet.
But with the other however, we did speak to people in our community that have been through that. It's really we really just wanted to talk about it because it is it's such something that can feel so shameful and we shouldn't. There's nothing that it doesn't make us any
less worthy, and that's so important. And with the other types of shame, it's something that you know, we've both been kind of navigated all of them, and I think for me probably the one that I'm navigating the most at the moment is, you know, is work shame And when when we say that, what that means is when you go through because obviously I have confidence at ebbs and flows, it's a journey like it's never you're never there and then you just kind of never have to think about it.
Or do the work.
But in times when I've had a really low self confidence, I have struggled to separate my any of the work I do. If it doesn't do well, or a conversation doesn't go well, or we don't get the outcome we needed for the business, I have really struggled to separate. So one of the examples that I speak to in the book was when I presented to a group of a very very corporate group on a phone call and it was about kick and I remember getting off the call and thinking, I muched that up.
I did a really shit job.
I didn't convey all the key messages that I needed to, I wasn't confident in my delivery. I didn't articulate myself while all those things. You know, there's one thing that happens, and then you just go on this spiral and everything.
You just start critiquing everything. And I replayed the whole meeting in my mind.
But it's interesting because I think when I did that, I then created a narrative based on the fact that
I didn't think I did a good job. And so then for three weeks in my head, with confidence with everything else I was doing at work, I was everything reverted back to It wasn't that that presentation didn't go well because maybe or that I thought the people that were receiving it, they weren't interested in what I was talking about anyway, or maybe I didn't have enough time to prepare or all those things, all.
The other elements that can go into it. All I could can think.
To was, as we spoke about with that kind of mathematical equation, every problem, everything that went wrong was because of me.
And when we can't separate all the other.
Factors that go into if thing goes, things go right or wrong, or successfully or not successfully, from ourselves, then that is where we get in this shame where for three weeks, everything I did, if it went wrong, I was like, it's because of me. It's because I'm not smart enough, it's because I don't get this, it's because I haven't done enough work, and all of these things
that I couldn't really change. And it was really interesting because then I got a call three weeks later about the meeting and someone said, oh, it was a really great meeting. We were so impressed, and it was so funny because then I just looked and was laughing because I was like, I've spent three weeks in my head telling myself that I'm not good enough. I need to do all this extra work. I should, you know, go do something else or whatever, and I had completely made
it up. But what's really important is we have to find a way and for anyone listening that that's going through this, you have to find a way to separate it because otherwise you will lead like with your confidence. You can't blame yourself for every single thing that happens, because it's also not going to help you move forward.
Because if I say, Okay, I did a bad job because I'm stupid, I can't really Yes, you can go and setnymore and do whatever, but it's not really going to change that thing that you keep going back to you. So you have to do the work as much as you can to help yourself kind of come to get to the point of conclusions in these situations where you can separate it.
But it's hard. It's so hard.
What would you kind of say to yourself to separate that and to make sure your self worth isn't attached to that Because I resonating with this all this so much, and I would love like an actual example teach me totally.
So in that example, I could have left that meeting. I think too, it's kind of doing the work to not get in your own head. And I think always repeating to myself too, I try and that we can all create our own narratives out of things, and I think it's important to so not let my mind, you know, keep going down that road for a really long time without actually chatting about how it actually went or getting the actual facts.
But I think in terms of that example, what I should have.
Done and how I would have liked to approach it if if I, you know, I went back and did it, and what I try and do moving forward.
But again it's like you know, your EBB and flow.
Would have been after that meeting to if it didn't go well, and just say I got feedback that it actually didn't go well. What I would have done then is then I said, okay, so what were the things that I can change going forward to make this go better? So it might have been that I needed to do more research. I needed to build out a certain level
of the presentation better. I needed to articulate or frame what I was talking about in a different way because the audio that I was speaking to, maybe I had assumed that they had knowledge that they didn't have. I needed to build things into because I was telling the story about Kick. I needed to build things into the story that they would relate to the in their journey, because my journey has been different to their journey, and things like that, like actual constructive things that you can
go and work on then and that's separable. For me, that really really helps because that then separates it. Then I'm not in this mode of like, oh, it's all because of me. I can't get out of this, you know, it's I'm just you're just kind of in this self pity place.
Really, you can get out of.
That and start moving forward, and you know, because we're always growing and evolving and that's amazing. But you can actually have tangible things that you want to go and work on that aren't going to impact your If anything, they'll make you feel more confident because then you'll be more equipped next time.
Yeah, and it's important to like separate what's tangible and what's not, because I mean, like, if you actually do really focus on it and you can't come up with anything that was necessarily like for example, if you'd had if something had happened tragically in your family and it caused you to have a horrible sleep the night before, that was completely unplanned, unavoidable and unfortunate might have rocked you in the meeting. That's not something that you can
like work on next time. That's something that you just have to kind of be okay with that you might
not necessarily perform at a perfect level. So that's where it's really important to kind of go back and work through those things, because if you're just feeling crap about it because it didn't go well, and then you reflect on it and you're like, actually, everything that technically went wrong in my head is something that was out of my control anyway, it kind of gets you to a point where you accept that it is what it is, and you know you'll do what you can to try
and prevent those things. But at the end of the day, that's life. Sometimes there's things that you can't control.
It might be two the person on the other side was never had made a judgment about you before you entered the room that you no matter how you told your story, how you did the work, could not have
changed their perspective on you. And so that's important too because I think, and there's something we go into the book a lot about is letting the fear of other people judgment what they think we should do with our lives, you know, if they think we're good at certain things or not define what we should do with.
Our lives and letting that take over.
And so I think that's really important too, because it is possible that I could go and do all the work, all those things, those examples I just spoke through, and that will help me because then I present the next time, I'm going to be better. But it is also possible that the people you're presenting to, or that the person you're speaking to in whatever instance it is in your life, they have made a judgment or they're not interested anyway, and you're never going to be able to change their mind.
So it's just important to kind of disconnect that. But it is It's so hard, isn't it.
I love those steps though, and it is about like using discernment of you know, like you were saying STEPH of like I literally couldn't control that and that's okay, and accepting it, and also you know, it then feeds into the conversation of accepting yourself where you're at and like knowing that you don't have to be perfect all the time and it's okay. I actually would really love also a Steph for you to chat about mum guilt
and how you have navigated that. Like I said, I have a fifteen month old daughter and it's been something that I have personally really really struggled with, and so I love that you bring it up in your social media, but I'd love for you kind of touch on a bit more about, you know, dealing with that in real time.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think one thing that I learned pretty quickly on, particularly when I started opening up about the feelings of mum guilt early on, was that there were mums with like fifteen year olds that messaged me and were like, sorry to tell you this, but it's not something that just happens, you know, in the first two years of their life, like it can happen for the
rest of their lives. When you care about another being so so much and you're also responsible for that being as well, it can weigh heavy on you when you don't necessarily feel like you're either spending enough quality time with them or doing the right things, you know, quote unquote. I think for me early on, and there was a lot of mum guilt around, I felt like I didn't
know what I was doing. Like, I felt like I read a lot of books about pregnancy, but there wasn't so much about motherhood, or then if there was, it was very kind of one sided and like one approach of a way to do things, and so I never really connected with much that I read. I learned pretty quickly that you connect with other mums you realize that
there are so many different ways to do things. You know, whether you co sleep or not, whether you know, feed with formula or not, Like, there's so many different ways to do things. And so the further it went on, I realized, Okay, there's not really right or wrong, it's just what works for my family. And so the guilt
started to fall away for particular mum things. And I can say now that majority of the time I feel really good and I feel like I'm a really really good mum, and I know I do it in my own way.
So patient, But I'm like, I am not going to be able to be this patient.
But it's come with practice, right, And I think, so that's something that I hold, I suppose I value in myself, but it can be really hard when the mum gilt rears its head more often now is always around work, like there's no doubt about it. And I think it's just because motherhood for me has been more than a dream come true, Like it's been better than I imagined it. And so I find it really hard to split my
time between two things that fulfill me so much. And I'm lucky to say that, right, I'm so fortunate to say that my job and my career is something that I enjoy so much and that fulfills me and you know, is so rewarding what we do helping people. So I think, though, because it's not something that I can kind of like switch my mind off because I love it so much,
I really do struggle to find the line. You know, it's hard to be at home and be completely one hundred percent, you know, having quality time with him, because I might be thinking about work in some way or
something might come up. And then it's also hard to be at work and then not kind of yearn for what's going on at home or like kind of wish I could get home earlier, all of those thoughts, right, And So I think what I just try and remind myself of is that there is no perfect work life balance, like that doesn't exist, and every week is going to be different, every day is going to be different, and so just doing what I can with what I have.
So some weeks at work, we might have a lot of really exciting things going on, and I think what's been the hardest thing is like when I'm struggling with mum guilt and I might not be making bedtime, i might be having limited time in the mornings with him, and then we might even have an event or something on on the weekend, and that means I'm spending even
less time with him even when we're not working. It's like I then start I don't resent work, but I start to think negatively about it, and then I have to flip that thought and think, the reason why we're working so late is because we've got this epic feature going live, or we've got this campaign that we're working on that's so exciting, like a new trader's going into the app, and then you kind of snap out of it because you get so excited about what you're doing.
Right again, super fortunate too, that that's what it is for me. For a lot of people who are away from their kids, they might hate their job, but they
have to do it to make the living. So I'm definitely trying and reframe it to focus on what I'm grateful for and work through that, and at any time that I feel like either or is like completely off balance, it's just about being open with both Laura as my business partner and best friend, but also Josh and trying to find that balance at least a couple of days a week where I can possibly spend a little bit more quality time with him, or maybe it's even spending
a little bit more quality time with myself and like focusing on my health because that's the other thing right that tugs me away in another direction. But I think the biggest thing was just knowing that it's probably going to be around forever, Like it's not I'm never going to wake up one day and just be like cool, I'll never struggle with mum guilt every again, and just doing the little things that help me feel better about whatever it is I'm struggling with.
You all, most need to accept that it's like this is going to constantly pop up and this is going to be something I'm constantly going to have to work on and being okay with that. I think once your like, you know, it is great to know that this is you know, that person in message you who's like, I've got a sixteen year old and you still feel mom guilt, so you can maybe you know, it's kind of like, oh, okay, this is normal, and then I love what you said.
It's like reframing. And something even I try to do is I can always pick a new story. So you know, if the story is, oh, well i've got an avent, I can't get home to Ivy, I'm a bad mum this and that, I can pick the new story of well, I'm doing this and it impacts and I'm also super super privileged and blessed like you, where the work I do is something that absolutely lights me up and it's for you know, the greater community and that sort of thing.
And so I have to choose the new story, which is like, well, actually this is helping you know, these people, and I love this and it lights me up and I know I can spend extra time with Ivy on the weekend. And then I pick that new story and you have to just be like okay with it, and you have to just go yep, and I'm okay, because otherwise I even feel like I'm gonna waste so much of my life just being.
In shame or feeling guilt, and it's.
You know, like it's like I do get to have control and pick these you know, different feelings.
Oh, you're so right, You're so right.
I mean it was literally just the other week that I was struggling with it, and I ended up writing out some thoughts and I sent it to Josh and I was like, you know what, I feel really good about going into work right now because of what we get to do and the difference we're making in the world, especially in the health and fitness space. And yes, we may be more targeted at women and non binary and I might have a little boy right now, but it's
still going to impact him in some way. If we can change the way and change the world for either himself or maybe women, he will know in his life. And I think going back to the bigger picture of you know, our core and what we do, it's like it's only going to make his life better. So it might not necessarily mean that I spend more time with him, but it's in turn it's still helping him in some way, which comforts me a lot.
And I Also, I really love that you and Josh like speak about that and you know you were able to give him your thoughts, because I think it's really incredible because often a lot of the time I'll do the same where my thoughts. I will tell him how I'm feeling, and then he's like, oh, babe, Blake, it's all good, and they kind of make you feel better. And also getting the thoughts down on paper, they're not as big and they don't have as much impact and you're like, oh, I feel better.
So yeah, it's so true.
I mean, I wish I could live like a few days in Josh's brain. I just feel like he has different he's wired differently, he thinks differently, he doesn't go to let he doesn't tastriphize everything and think of the worst. I just yeah, so sometimes when he just says, whoa, what's what's going on? It's okay, Everything's actually okay.
You're so right.
It can really kind of just simplify things and let you breathe a little bit.
Thank you so much for all that input.
And again, I just cannot stress how much the mind section of the book like blew my mind and made me feel.
So seen and I resonated with so much.
But I want to move on to body because I actually remember Steph.
I've been a longtime follower.
And years and.
Years ago, you did this beautiful post where you explained, like, you know, through your modeling Korea, you had to be a certain size and you restricted yourself and you went through a whole journey and there was kind of a clear transformation where you started embracing yourself and you started, you know, eating for health and exercising for health, and
you know, your body did change. And I remember you doing this post where you outlined that and you're like, yeah, my body's changed and I feel fucking great, and you know, like you did this post and it was a time, you know, even a couple of years ago, it was like more of a fitz bo time. And I remember even reading that post and being like, yeah, she does look different and it looks fucking great, and like really loving that you put that on the internet and we're
really at the forefront. And I loved in the body section, you know you mentioned it's like it's the quote I picked from there is like it's not learning how to love your body, it's unlearning how to hate it, and I'd love for you to just, like, you know, chat on that because I feel like, you know, you've gone through such a journey with that, and obviously thank you.
I think that quote why I love that quote so much, and I think what comes to mind when I.
Hear it again.
Laura and I've done a lot of school talks, and I remember one we went to where we were speaking to a much younger audience. It's a year sixes and it was crazy because we would take them through a similar activity to what we were taking you know, fifteen to eighteen year old girls through, and the activity was to basically compliment themselves, like it didn't have to be about their physical appearance, could be a trait that they love, something that they're good at, but to.
Write these things down.
And when we were speaking to teenagers, they often either sat there shyly didn't want to write anything down, or you know, they might write one thing down, but then they're just more interested in like complimenting their friend and helping their friend out, which is also very very lovely. But these younger kids, they were like straight penn to paper.
They had honestly wrote like at least ten compliments for themselves and it was so special to see because I think for us, which you know, that was probably four years ago now, and you know, a lot of things have changed, and the rates of you know, people going through things like body dysmorphia and eating disorders, that's unfortunately, it's getting younger and younger and younger. So I'm definitely not saying that, you know, year sixers don't look at
themselves in a negative way. However, it was really beautiful to see how confident they were in themselves. And I do too, remember that a lot of my insecurities and doubts on myself and who I was that all started to rear its head when I was a teenager. I don't ever remember being super insecure as like a five year old or you know that kind of age. I don't remember that, and so I think what it kind of made me realize was and even seeing Harvey, like
he doesn't have any insecurities. I mean he's almost two, he's probably too early to tell anyway, but like it's so, you're not born that way.
You're not born hating yourself.
You're not born like these are all things that we learn through pressures in society, through things that people say. It's all stuff that you learn, and so it is just a big, very very long journey of unlearning these things. And that's something that we still do to this day.
There is still habits or thoughts in our minds. Even though we're very comfortable with who we are, very comfortable in our own skin, and we've worked through that and gone through our own journey, it's not like an end destination.
There's still things that we have to work through.
There's still this subconscious that might have, you know, read one too many girlfriend magazines and when we were younger, that still has these random beliefs that rear their head every now and again when we might not be feeling great about ourselves.
And that's okay, you work through them.
But it is unlearning these habits that kind of get you to.
A point where you can accept yourself. And it's not about loving yourself.
It's not about like getting to a point where you don't have any insecurities, like that's loving your body, yeah, but that's not realistic. And so it's more just about focusing on the things that you do love and appreciating yourself and when it comes to the things you don't like find ways to either ignore them or work through them.
There's certain physical parts of my body, or there might be certain personality traits that I don't necessarily love about myself, but I've accepted that I'm not perfect and that's absolutely okay, because striving to be perfect you're never going to get there. Nobody is perfect, and so you're just going to constantly be unhappy with yourself and it's just.
Not a way to live. So, yeah, that's kind of where that was going. And I think too, it's.
Kind of trying to connect that the way thinking that the way that our bodies look matters. Everything around us
tells us that they do, but they do not. And so it's even in writing the book, in speaking to on the in Body Shame, actually it was in we spoke to a lot of our community members and I remember chatting to one and one said to me that there was a comment made to them when they were very young, and it was a family member or a mum or something that told them they should go on a diet or something along those lines, and that comment stayed with them and they are now in their twenties,
and so a comment that was made, like you know, almost like twenty years ago, is still with that person. And that then meant their relationship with their body, their worth, their self worth was tied to their body, and they constantly were in that body shame mindset of I hate my body. It's not good enough, it's not accepted by society. Therefore I am not good enough. And we have to
disconnect the way our body looks from our worth. Our body has nothing to do nothing to do with if we're worthy or not.
We don't need to love it. We just need to accept it, as Steph was saying, And we.
Can love ourselves, but it's not about like it's loving ourselves and as who we are, not about loving our bodies, and it's accepting who accepting it for all the amazing things our bodies can do, like obviously, and it's a lot of the work you do as well. And we want people to lead healthier and happier lifestyles, you know, That's.
What we do with Kick. We want people to move their bodies and eat well and look after them so they feel good.
That is very very important. We don't want to take away from that. But it doesn't matter what your body looks like, and so it's having that disconnect between our worth and the way that our body looks and exceptional things that it does, and thinking about like, our body is our home.
It is it is our we can't change. We're not going to get another home, We're not going to get another body.
And so it's how do we look after this home that we have and you know, talk to it like you talk to your best friend and you know, look at like you.
Know, I love. Think about things that your body does to you.
So you know, your arms enable you to hug and connect with people. You all the things like your legs help you get from one place to another, your arms help you also like carry heavy bags, all these things that we do. Think of our body as a function that helps us to do things that are meaningful in our life, as opposed to our body being a meaningful thing in our life.
Yeah, just going deeper than that.
I mean, you don't love Dalton just because he's good looking.
Not why, my god, that would be a horror marriage game.
You know. That's how you simplify You think about the people in your life that you love, right, it's not about the way they look. And also it's not about loving every trade of theirs either. It's like there's things that annoy the shit out of me with Josh, but he's still the love of my life. So it's just about like not chasing that perfection.
Could even feel myself getting a bit emotional when you were speaking about you know that girl, Laura, because so many of us have those experiences where someone has said one thing and we carry it and we carry it and it's like, that's not ours to carry, that is a projection from that person, and it's so it's so upsetting that, you know, it can take us on this huge journey in like almost twenty years to realize that. And it even reminds me, I love that you speak
about it. It's not that I have to love my body. It's yeah, like saying how I look is not my worth. And I even had a really interesting journey where I got my implants out because you know, they were making me sick. And I've had a couple of girlfriends now do the same thing and they were like, oh, what's your advice with you know, accepting yourself or like loving your body after you get your implants out, And I.
Just said to them, I just don't focus on them.
Like I don't stand there and look at my boobs in the mirror, and you know, like I literally just don't focus on them. And then it just got to the point where it just didn't bother me because I wasn't focusing on it and not in like an.
Ignorant sort of way where I was ignoring.
That part of myself, but I well, I guess I was. You know, I just was like, oh, I just didn't focus on that part of me. And eventually it's like even the thoughts where that part of me needed to be a certain way just disappeared, and I just was like, yeah, cool, these are my boobs.
That's it. This is how they look.
And it had so much like less weight and meaning and also you know, being careful about like what you're consuming, it might be really emphasizing where the worth is coming from. So that was that was so incredible, and thank you
so much for touching on that. Something that I also love with you and Kick is how you don't do before and after photos on Kick And it's like, you know, I know from a marketing perspective how well that would do for you guys, And so to see you guys make such an integral move like that you know in your fitness company is.
It's really remarkable And I love.
That you you know, even touched on this in the book, and I would just love to hear like why you don't why you guys are anti before and after photos and also because you know there is this argument of its motivation and I just yeah, I'd love to hear you guys.
Yeah, sure, I mean, as I've said in the book, like I think I started the chapter off basically saying, look, if you can look at before and after photos and you have such a great relationship with with health and yourself that you are not negatively affected by it, then like this message obviously isn't for you.
That that's fine.
However, for a lot of people it goes so much deeper than that, and it can trigger so many things. I mean, the biggest thing is basically all of the praise that you see this person receiving. So if you're looking at it as you've seen a post of it before and after, you may or may not know this person, but you're seeing a post as a person, as an individual, and you're seeing all of this commentary about how great they look and how much better they look and oh
my god, well done, all this positive praise. But nobody knows other than what this person might have narrated as their story. Nobody actually knows what went down to get this trend like this transformation. You know, this person could be over exercising, they might be obsessively exercising, they might be binging, they might be restricting themselves, they might be incredibly unhappy. You have no idea what's going on. But
by positively praising them, you're only feeding that. I suppose want to kind of continue that encouragement to that, hey, I'm looking good, Okay, I'm going to keep going.
And that's where you can get really really unhealthy.
I mean, for me, for my personal experience, when I was living in New York and I was getting measured every Monday and Friday, and I was getting this positive praise because I was losing weight, and I just kept thinking, Okay, I just need to do more and more and more because they're getting really happy with me, and they were unhappy with me before.
So this is good. This is a good thing.
That same thing, it feeds it, and it's like they might be doing something really unhealthy. So that's where it can be really damaging, and obviously that's damaging to the person onlooking it's also damaging to the person in the photos, of course, but at the end of the day, it's just not about what you look like.
I think what's so beautiful in our community.
And it's not to say that our community members don't share before and after is we certainly don't block them out. It's been really interesting and regulating our community because we very very rarely have to actually delete a post or
block a post from going live. Because the community, once they're in there and they spend a little bit of time in there, they quickly realize, you know, what we're all about and what our community is all about, and they're so supportive and encouraging that if anyone ever does comment something about like negative towards themselves or something that they're going through their journey or they might post it before and after it, but they might be unhappy with something,
the community is so quick to kind of reframe the way that their body is thinking, sorry, their brain is thinking around their body and kind of re tell the narraw of like this, this is why we can move our body, or this is why we should move our body it's a celebratary thing. It's, you know, we should nourish our body because it gives you energy, all that
sort of stuff and reframing it. But that's what's really beautiful. However, you don't see that when you when you just look at the before and after photos of going through a challenge, and the other thing is often those before and after photos when they're conected to something like a challenge, it's not a sustainable way to live, and so might do like a six week challenge, might be a twelve week challenge or whatever it is. You get to the end result,
you get all this positive praise. Then you start to go back to your normal life because you can't sustain whatever you were going through. And then you gain the weight or you lose the weight, depending on you know, whether you put muscle on or whatever, and you're suddenly looking different to that after photo, and then you'll just forever compare yourself to that after photo that got so much you know, praise it. That's where it can be so damaging and so unhealthy, and that is why we
don't share them as a company. And you're so right, Georgie, like it's it's definitely something that we have had to really stay true to and and be really strong on because in the past it's not been anytime recently because obviously our team who we work with now are all very very much on board with what we do and
who we are. However, in the past we have been, you know, encouraged to use that sort of imagery or messaging in our marketing because it is it's unfortunate, but it is a very easy pull to things like a fitness thing. But that's not what we're about. We're not about encouraging users to focus on the aesthetic changes. It's about much much more than that, and that's the way that you can actually sustain it and find you know,
your healthy recipe whatever that looks like for you. So yeah, we won't be sharing them.
And there's also so many on the internet too that literally aren't even from it's like a it's a lot like they there's photos that I know that have been taken from things I've seen, like one programs posted it and then in other programs using that as an ad post METO.
I know, I know, oh and I like I love that you really, yes.
Like stress like it's the getting the messaging and the feedback.
Of well done.
This is so great and it's interesting because I was just reflecting then and like my personal page, I've been on Instagram for like eight years, and at the start it grew off my before and afters, Like you know, that was I was the fitness Queen and it was before and afters, and I remember getting that applause and praise and that feeding and I was very unhealthy back then and I was underreading over exercising, but that fed into such unhealthy ways and then you know, I had
such a journey with having.
To unlearn that.
But it it is hard because that's literally what.
The focus of the fitness industry is. It's before and afters.
So I really love that you guys have such a stance on that and it's it's really incredible.
All right, let's move on to Connection.
So this is the last part of your book, and it's so beautiful. It's really great that you know, you spoke about so so many things, and I just want to grab a couple of parts, you know, to finish off this interview. And Laura, I thought it was really really interesting what you wrote about your complicated relationship. You know that you have with the word hustle and over the few years, how you've had to really deprogram and unlearn the hustle mindset. Again, I resonate with this so much.
I'd love to know, you know, how you go about deprogramming the hustle mindset and also put in you know, because in the book you talk about the quote to expect extraordinary results, we must put in extraordinary effort.
So it's like, how do you navigate that balance.
I mean, it's a tough one and I think definitely is something where as I've said, like this book for us as well as something that we're going to continue to really visit, and you just have those reminders because you don't get to a point. I feel like, yeah, we ebb and flow and everything. But I think for me in terms of hustle, I think it's reframing my
relationship with that word. I think maybe three years ago I wore the fact that I was busy and in quotation marks hustling as a badge of honor, and if I had a conversation with someone or how I am busy, I'm busy.
I'm busy.
There's honestly nothing more boring to have a conversation than someone that just says they're busy.
It's like, okay, great.
But what I've had to reframe in my mind is I think sometimes the thing with hustle and that you know, the hustle culture on Instagram and that the stuff that we get caught up in and I've been there, I've been caught up in it, right, is that you forget that you're making a choice. So I have reframed it in my head as I make a choice to work really hard fully half but also we've made a choice as a business to have very very Our growth plan
is quite aggressive. I would say what we want to do with quick we have both sat in a room and we have decided we want to do this, and so with that comes sacrifice, and with that comes work that has to be put in. You can't sit in a room and say i want my company, you know, to go to grow globally and be in all these different global markets and I'm not really going to do anything. I'm just gonna do the amendment Like that's not You're you're not going to get there, right, So you have
to be realistic. You can't just have work life balance to the point where it's like it's all life, no work, and you know you're not putting the work in because you have to put the work in, But it's about kind of sitting down and thinking to myself, I have made this choice to do this.
This is the.
Choice that you know that we've made together and the business has made, and we've made with our advisors and you know, everyone in our business, and so here's what we have to do to get there. And yes it requires working hard and doing a lot of work, because
that's that's important. But it's just reframing that that it's it's a choice and it's like, again, it's a privileged to be able to have said to do what we do and love what we do and to be in a position where we can make a decision that you know, we've we've tested a market in Australia that we then want to go and test globally, Like that's that is an amazing thing that we're able to do and the
learnings we're going to get so exciting. And also, I mean, it's all about connecting back to the mission with Kick is trying to help as many people reframe that relationship with health and wellness and build that sustainable approach and live happier and healthier lives. And so that is how I've kind of tried to think about it, because it's not about not putting the work in, but it's just about reframing. You know, when someone asks you how have
you been, it's not oh, I'm so busy. It's like, yep, you know, I'm doing X, Y and Z. But that because they're choices. I think some of when we say we're busy and we're hustling, it's like it's being forced upon us. But if you reframe it and you realize it's I mean, it's kind of like how I balance everything in terms of especially with work, because it is it is we do. We do work a lot, and
I think it's just important. Otherwise you just feel shame all the time and guilt for the things that you're sacrificing, and especially for you, Steff, like I don't have for both of you, I don't have kids, so I don't that I know will be the biggest, you know, guilt feeling out of it anything, and it probably is incoparable to anything you felt before you had Harvey. But when I ever feel guilty, about you know, letting my family
down or friends or my mental health. I obviously it's trying to find that balance of not just like you know, telling yourself moving.
Exactly what you still need to try and avoid burnout.
Not burning out, but also not holding that mental load of realizing the sacrifices that you have chosen to make, and that's important, like it's a choice that I made right and that we made together. So it's like trying to find that balance because otherwise I think you just sit and you just feel sorry for yourself and then you live in that, as you kind of said it for around you know, you feel guilty all the time
and that that's not a way to live. So it's just trying to find a way to work through that and just reframe that.
I don't know if that helps it all, but it is.
Sometimes the mental load is actually so much heavier than what you're actually going through. Not always like sometimes you really do just have too much on and not enough time, and that can be hard and you need to navigate that too and find those times that you can schedule in if it's half an hour of something where you're
not necessarily burning to the ground. Because it is really important to also avoid burnout because if you are working so hard towards a goal and you're not recognizing the you know, things that are popping up and telling you, hey, you really need to just take a moment, and then you go towards burnout. It's like you're gonna have to take weeks of productivity anyway, because you'll be a mess.
More efficient exactly, because there's some people that posse like, I'm hustling until three o'clock in the morning, and then I might say, oh my god, I'm not working till three o'clock in the morning.
But I know if I did that, I would not be out.
I would I would be a very mean So it's just finding that balance.
No, No, that is so helpful, and it is it's so true, and I like, I think it's just so incredible because it is so much about our mindset and how we can take that mental load away and reframe things. And it's yeah, like, if you can kind of hack your mindset, you really can live a life that is truly authentic to you and it can really look you know, exactly how you want it. You've just got to be able to catch yourself and reprogram it and reframe it.
And it is It's so beautiful because I do the exact same thing where I'm like, you know, if I'm starting to feel the mom guilt or you know, somethink a work or this and that, and I have to reframe and be like, no, Georgie, you wanted this, you chose this, and now you're living out that you know choice and that dream, and so like what's happening here?
And you yeah, you've.
Almost like that awareness is so so huge and it's not there's not like a solution where it's like, well, you just do this and you don't feel guilt anymore or you don't feel you know, that sort of thing. It's about constantly catching yourself and also having these conversations and talking about it. And that's why I think the book is so so incredible. So thank you so much for answering that. And just to finish off the interview, I have just a couple of quick fire questions for
you guys, just something we always ask our guests. So, what's the best advice you have ever received?
I think one thing that I often bring up, which is just something that my mum drilled into me from a very young age is to treat people how you should be treated. And I think that doesn't mean that I always do, but it's something that I have to I really want. I value in myself when I do, and I like it when other people do that as well, and I try to surround myself with people who do kind of practice that. So I think it is something that's really important to me and something that has stuck
with me. Although the last time she said it to me was probably when I was like eleven years old. So it's something that I try and take through my personal relationships, my work relationships, just to treat everyone equal and to treat them how you wish to be treated.
I love that, and I think for me right in this moment, it would be that we cannot control what other people think of us, and that is very important to remember and to not let that control you and how you think of yourself.
That is so incredible, guys, you have been so amazing to have on the show, and again, congratulations, this is just so so incredible.
Guys.
You have to go out and get you take care. We'll put all the links and everything in the show notes because it's such a beautiful read, especially before bed. That's what I found, Like, you know, it's something where it's not going to it's not like read before this book, I was reading a thriller, a romantic thriller.
It was really confusing.
So this has been so much nicer to digest before bed. It's yeah, no, it's really really incredible. But thank you guys so much. Do you want to just let the audience know where they can find you or where they can grab it?
Thank you so much.
We really really appreciate it's been so so nice to chat to you. Yeah, seriously, the.
Book is that I mean you can get it from book Topia but also all major bookstores as well.
It's there, which is so surreal.
I can't tell you surreality is saying it a person. Yeah, I mean, if you'd like to find out more about Kick, our websites Keep it Cleaner dot com and we're at kick on TikTok and keep it Clean on Instagram.
Thank you so much, ladies, Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Rise and Conker Podcast. If you enjoyed it and.
Want more, come connect with us on Instagram at Risinconquer dot podcast and join our Facebook discussion group, a Rise and Concer podcast community. We're an independent podcast and we have a small team, so we do appreciate your time and support. If you have a spare moment, a follow or subscribe on whatever platform you listen to would be so amazing, And look, if you're feeling extra kind, a review on Apple Podcasts would be great.