We're twenty three. We have all the time and freedom in the world that we're not going to have when we want to have families and mortgages and partners who are potentially financially relying on us to contribute to our household. So we just thought, well, if we're not going to take the chance, now, when the hell are we going to do it?
The phone was gone, finally making welcome back to the Rise and Conquered podcasts. This podcast is for women who want to take control of their lives, gain the confidence to live unapologetically, and who are ready to turn their biggest dreams into their reality. I'm your host, Georgie Stevenson, former lawyer turned entrepreneur and personal development junkie. Today I'm chatting with two women who I'm sure need no introduction, but if you aren't for me with Zara and Michelle.
They are the hosts of the award winning pop culture podcast Shameless. Michelle and Zara a Melbourne based journalist who met when they were working as writers. In March twenty eighteen, after their podcast Pitch was declined by their employees at the time, Mitch and Zara went off on their own and started the podcast Shameless. Since then, the girls have become a leading voice for young women and have now
released their very own book, The Space Between. The book is an amazing read all about the space in between your teen years and proper adulthood. I love the book because it brought up so many important conversations and opinions that really made me feel seen and heard as a twenty something female. In our chat today, we get down how the Shameless podcast unfolded and we get more into these important topics in the book. I absolutely adore the Shameless podcast and I adore that book, so I'm just
so thrilled to bring you this episode. Let's get into it. Mish and Zara, Welcome to the show. Thanks to do usks.
We're very excited to be here. It is day two of book promo, and when I saw that we had your podcast this morning, I was like, fuck, yes, that is so our vibe. We are so thrilled to be on this chat with you.
What a lovely start to the day.
Right back at you, like like, you guys know massive fans and I'm just so excited to dive into your new book and chat to you guys because I've been reading it the last couple of weeks to finish it a couple of nights ago, and yeah, I'm just so excited and it's it's it's so good to like chat to you guys. Because I was telling Zara and Mish before we jumped on, like, I feel like I know everything about you?
What if people say that, and I'm like, do you?
I mean, I'm not gonna lie as well, if you've read the Space, you probably do know everything there is to know about us because we are so incredibly personal in this book, and like we've just kind of said everything there is to say, so I don't doubt that I probably know better than I know myself.
I literally feel like us three best friends. So I'm just like friends like a wave. Guys were also on Zoom, so I'm like using my hands being a bit crazy. But welcome to the Rise and Conker Podcast. We're going to get into all the fun things today. But before we get into that, a question that I'm asking all my Season three guests is what is a daily non negotiable? And I know you guys are in lockdown in Victoria, so this may be you know, people may feel you
and resonate with you. On this, But what is something you're doing every single day that helps you either step into your power or be your sort of like best self, And you're like, I need to do this otherwise it's a shit show.
Who I'll go first? Okay? Can see you like deliberating behind your microphone. Mine would be going to the dog park, provided it's sunny, so that is a little bit negotiable. If it's raining, we'll take our puppy for a walk. We got a puppy in Lockdown one point zero and
he's beautiful. His name is Benji. He's a little kvoodle and taking him to the dog park almost every day, probably six days a week, is just the best part of my date because it just gives my boyfriend Mitch and I an opportunity to get some fresh air and walk around and see our dog just play with all the other puppies at the park. Like it's such a wholesome and beautiful daily ritual that we now do, and I love going there actually at the end of a
long day of work. We go there most days around five o'clock, and that just means that we get to have this really pure and wholesome experience at the end of every tough day.
I feel like mine is not quite as pure or whole. The only thing I find myself dogging every day. I was thinking about this is I do have a ritual own It is just before the start of every working day, going to the cafe, like three hundred meters down the road, walking there, waiting for the coffee, walking back, And that is probably the only thing that I do day in day out that's exactly the same at the moment, but it kind of gives me that.
Kicked out to the day. It's like literally with the coffee.
But I think once I'm out of my apartment, get a quick bit of fresh air and then walk back, I'm ready to kind of.
Get into the zone. I mean, we're all working from home.
I think I kind of need to get out before I get back at my laptop and start.
Yes, And I think, like both of you guys, it's definitely like a routine. You have something that it happens every single day. You know what's going to happen, and it's almost like a bit comforting.
Yeah, for sure, I think so. I think, particularly in this kind of lockdown, I don't think anyone should underestimate how tricky. It is being in stage full lockdown for as long as Victorians and Melbournians in particular have been in it. It is such a different way of living. And the amount of time you spent indoors in your apartment is just so insane, like it's really needed to get out. Like it's very telling that Zara and I have both basically just said just to get fresh air.
That is priority right now. And your priorities do shift so much when you're in a weird state of limbo like we are right now.
Yes, one hundred percent, I could imagine, and I remember when we were on lockdown, just like getting out of the house and I was going for I've never been on so many walks in my life and just getting that fresh air and getting outside. One hundred percent. I feel you on that. So let's chat about your book The Space Between and I'm holding it up, guys, and I've got it beside me. So this book is all
about the chaos, questions and magic in our twenties. So I've just finished reading it and I absolutely loved it. I honestly felt like really heard and really seen. It was the first time I felt like that in a piece of literature, if that makes sense, And so I want to get into the book before we do that. I am a very light control freak person, and so I have visions of how things are going to go on my mind, and if they don't go like that,
I struggle a little bit. And so I was thinking about you guys, and I was like, holy crap, they're launching this book. I'm sure you had lots of kind of visualizations about, you know, having a book launch and having that money and it going a certain way, and because of Lockdown, it hasn't gone that way. So tell me about how the book launch has gone in lockdown. How are you guys feeling about it.
It's so interesting because I think I only gave myself a moment maybe it was two days ago, where I thought, God it, it kind of.
Would have been nice to do it how we always thought we were going to do it.
And I haven't given myself many of those moments because kind of it is what it is, and I don't think dwelling is particularly healthy for anyone. But I did have a moment where I kind of thought there was an alternate reality where we were going to be going on a national tour and going to cities and doing shows, or we hadn't been before and we're going to be traveling a lot, and it was going to be much more of a thing and that would have been lovely.
But that said and whan, it's been.
Very busy and we haven't even left our homes, so I kind of think, well, maybe we wouldn't have been able to hack it anyway, Like maybe it's a beautiful way to do it, being able to kind of be in our homes and not travel so much because we travel usually so much for work. Anyway that we can kind of do all this work and still feel like things aren't completely crazy and out of our control.
So I had that moment, but then I thought.
I don't know how I would have gone in that alternate reality of what was meant to happen, Like maybe this is still best case scenario. I mean, it's sad that we can't meet our listeners, but beyond that, I know we'll get to these cities and I know we'll get there eventually.
Yeah, I mean, it's so sad we can't go see our listeners, like Zara just touched on, because doing live shows and doing events with our audience is one of our favorite parts of the job, so not being able to do that in twenty twenty, we were planning a national book launch, so we were going to be going to every major state and doing shows. We were going to be potentially going over to New Zealand as well
and doing stuff over there in Auckland. So to kind of see all that fall apart was of course upsetting. But I think like this year, we've all had to let go of so much, and I think for Zara and I it's really important that when those losses have come, or when those disappointments have come, for us to just move on. I think if we wallowed about all the different things that we missed out on with this book, we'd just get really despondent and really sad, and we'd
kind of get stuck in this mental rut. But it's really important for us, not just with the book, but with Shameless in general, because disappointments come right Like anyone who runs their own business or anyone who is self employed will know that you miss out on opportunities or things pop up that you would really love to do that just don't work out the way you hoped that they would, and I think I think anyone who's in this game knows that you kind of just need to
pick yourself back up, put your chin up, and not think about it too much. So from the moment Zara and I realized that the book tour wouldn't be happening, we really haven't considered it so much.
We haven't even had a conversation. I don't know.
I think we just accepted it. But like, well, Okay, there's plenty of things that a lot of people are missing out on this year. I mean, my sister just recently had to move her wedding. She's got a new baby that people can't come and visit and spend time with and bond with. Like my sister Evelyn is stuck in Bendigo doing a medicine degree and can't see anyone. That hasn't seen her boyfriend, hasn't seen her family for
two months. So when I look at the people that I love the most in my life, I'm kind of realizing that, yes, it sucks we can't go through this amazing, glittery book to us, but also everyone's had to sacrifice things, and this is just the thing for us.
I absolutely love that and I resonate with that so much, because, like you said, twenty two twenty has just been a year that you know, we couldn't we obviously couldn't have for scene, and so many people are dealing with losses and not being able to do something. And I know this is very like frivolous, but I had twenty twenty
was like my year of adventures. I was like going to Europe and going to New Zealand, and I'm someone who doesn't like to travel, so like I had got my head around that, and then when it wasn't happening, it is like, of course it's devastating, but I love what you guys said, like you just got to peek yourself up and keep going and just go, Okay, it's not happening. This is this is not how a book launch you know, would be. But we're going to do
the best we can. And I know you guys are doing that, so that's awesome.
Yeah.
I mean I always like to look at it in the sense of like, well, what can I actually control in this scenario, because there are a handful of things I can control and there are a handful of things I absolutely cannot. So I think we're fixating a lot on the things that we can control here, you know, what kinds of media we do from home and our
attitudes through that time. And I think once you do that, you kind of let go of a lot of stuff and you're not carrying the burden of stuff you actually cannot control, because I just don't think it's that healthy.
Yeah, And I mean we're the same as you. We were both supposed to be going to Europe on the exact same day, on the exact same flight with our boyfriends, so.
Not deliberately act very accidentally.
Accidentally because Zara and I just have the same brain now and clearly think to do the exact same thing at the exact same time. But yeah, I once the Europe trip was canceled, I actually don't remember like going through a grieving process for that or being upset, like, of course it's disappointing, But I think both of us and our partners are just the kind of people where
it's like, Okay, well that's the reality. What can we do to fix it, or what can we do to I guess still make twenty twenty worthwhile and still pack it with whatever we can. So yeah, I mean it's a really tricky year and we're just going to try and get through it and hopefully things go back to normal sooner rather than later.
Yes, And I love what you were saying before. I think Zara said in regards to you know, maybe this is best case scenario, if that makes sense, But it's an amazing way to look at it. All right, girls, let's switch gears and take it back to the start. So same. Shameless started as a side hustle, and I know you were both working full time in media companies and then you kind of came to this crossroads and you know, this side hustle project kind of got bigger
than your jobs. And I would love for you to talk about kind of the moment when you were like, oh wait, this is real, we really have something here, and kind of what was going through your head when you decided to take Shameless to that next step go full time. What did that look like for you, guys?
I mean, I wondered if that moment was the same, But I think in a few conversations that miss and I have had in the last couple of years, I think it might be. We started Shameless in March twenty eighteen,
we were both working together. In the July of that year, Mish went freelance and I went to another job for six months while we tried to really or we tried to really make Shameless a thing on the side, and we were kind of building it up, but also kind of distracted by the need to do our jobs and earn money.
And I think by the.
Next February, so it probably took an entire year, when I was sitting at my normal nine to five job and we were putting out tickets for our very first live show, and I was like the world's worst employee in that job, because I spent half my screen was on Shameless stuff, and half my screen was on.
Other stuff and on the work I should have been doing.
And we were selling these tickets at about nine am, and I was sitting at my desk and we watched them go in about six minutes, and I was like, I'm still sitting at my nine to five job, and there are two hundred and fifty people who have snapped up these tickets faster than I've been able to refresh
the page. And I think we were both like then we probably I need to get out of this job now, like we need to really commit to this full time and make it, you know, our baby, dare I say, I mean it had been, but our proper baby, because suddenly I think if people are willing to give you their time on an evening, I just I don't know. I feel like something about that means it's like a different kind of investment than just putting them or putting you in their ears every day or every week.
Yeah, like kind of compared to you know, just a free podcast, and then you're like, oh no, wow, like we have a community here.
I think that was a huge one for us, Like when we left our jobs. I think a lot of people when they hear our story, they think the podcast must have been making money or it must have been a source of income for us early on. It is not the case. When we left our jobs, I think the podcast was maybe almost three months old, probably not even that, so we only had a couple of thousand listeners to the show every week. But we just knew in our guts there was something about Shameless that just
said to us, this is it. This is it. You have to pursue it, you have to give it a shot. I think it's also important to note that It wasn't like we were in the dream job. It wasn't like we were super happy with the work we were doing. We were looking at a job environment that we felt was a little bit toxic, and we also felt like
we weren't secure. We were really worried about either losing our jobs and having our entire Melbourne office, which was a satellite office, being closed, or we were worried about the pressure to move up to Sydney, and we didn't want to move to Sydney. We love our families, we
love our lives here in Melbourne. So as much as like looking back it's like, oh wow, what a decision like leaving a job to pursue this thing that's made no money and doesn't really have an audience and is really quite new and fresh, we weren't happy, and so we kind of thought, we're twenty three. We have all the time and freedom in the world that we're not going to have when we want to have families and mortgages and partners who were potentially financially relying on us
to contribute to our household. So we just thought, well, if we're not going to take the chance now, when the hell are we going to do it, and I'm really glad we did. The podcast didn't even start making money until I think October of that year, so we launched in March. We left our jobs in June July.
The podcast started providing a very very small amount of income in October November, and it wasn't until I guess we got to that live show stage that we thought, Okay, yes, Zara also needs to quit her job, but this needs to be something that we just funnel all of our energy into. If it fails, it fails, but we really don't think it will because there's something good here.
I absolutely love that, and I resonate with that so much. I remember there being a point where I was working full time corporate Zarah. I laughed because I would like, you know, like have my like law documents up here, and then like over here, I'd be like editing a YouTube or putting it idle or something, and then quickly like exit out of it. But I resonate with that
so much. And I love what you guys said in regards to you had such a passion and you weren't happy in your nine to five's and you're like if now when, And I think it's huge. And but in saying that, I think a lot of people, you know, pick the safe option. They almost are kind of like they're at that point and they just don't sort of go down that route because I feel like, you know, growing up, we're very much taught to pick the safe option and you shouldn't, you know, go outside of this box.
And so i'd love to ask you, guys, if you know a listener, And this podcast is all about action, actionable tips, so I'll do it throughout the whole thing, but i'd love to ask you guys, you know, if there is a listener and they're currently got this side hustle, they're super passionate about it, and they are in a nine to five in a full time position, and they are kind of at this crossroads they're like, what do
I do? Do I go fall into this? Because me very much, I was like, if I don't go fall into this, now, I think I'm going to kind of miss the boat or it's all going to just get too much. So if they're at that crossroads, what advice would you have to them in regards to following a passion compared to, you know, sticking to the safe nine to five.
And the thing is it depends on a definition of safe, right, because I actually think that pursuing shameless was the safe option. I think it was the safe option because maybe not financially or but I felt like, this is the safe option because this is an idea that I don't see anywhere else, and if I don't do this now, somebody else will feel this hole. Like absolutely, somebody else will feel this whole. We've got to hurry up and get
it done. So that's why it felt like the safe option, because I kind of didn't feel like I felt like almost our hands were forced because of timing. And I think if somebody's got something on the side where they feel like they do have an idea and they ease a gap in the market, and if they don't go now they know somebody else will feel that hole, then I think the safe option is cha chasing that dream
and chasing that side hustle. Like I think it is the safe option because the last thing you want is to look back and be like, well, I had that idea and I was sitting on it and I didn't do anything about it because I was really scared or really worried about what might happen. I think that's when you kind of you don't want that those elements of regret I don't think.
I think my advice as well would be take it seriously from the get go. You can love something and it can be your passion project, and you can still take it seriously and not feel ashamed about that. I think there's such a tendency with female entrepreneurs or female business founders to want to say that everything around them is luck, that they're lucky to be where they are, And I know that this is not an idea for me.
This is a brilliant book written by Jamilla Risby, who is a mentor of ours, Not Just Lucky, which really explores how women in the workplace and women in business tend to attribute all of their success to luck. Zara and I have always wanted to make it super clear from the beginning of Shameless kind of reaching some level of success that yes, of course luck plays a role in what happened with Shameless, But we were so strategic
with this podcast from the get go. When we say it was a side hustle and a hobby, it really truly was. But it was also a hobby that had spreadsheets and analytics and strategy behind it. Like from episode one, we had a Google sheets dock where we would enter how many Instagram followers have we got this week? What was our download number? What is the week on week
growth there? We don't have any marketing budgets, so what can we do or what can we put out into the world that will hopefully get some eyeballs on what we're doing. And I think it's important for people to be transparent about that because it's not like we just threw something at the wall in the hope it would stick. We really wanted to approach this with our brains as well as our hearts, so I'm glad that it paid off,
and I think Zia's right. I think for us it was the safer option because we had to look at it very pragmatically. As much as we adore the podcast and we would do it for free because it was so enjoyable and so much fun to sit down and chat every week as friends, we wanted it to be a business and an income, so we had to think about it with both sides of our brain.
And I love what you said about you and being very sort of authentic and open about you took it seriously from the start and it was strategic and it's like, yeah, it's not luck. You put in so much effort and so much work. And I think that is super refreshing because we do tend to do that as females are like, oh, you know, you know, like I, it's too super lucky. It was the right timing and that sort of thing.
And I think that's an important thing to highlight, is how much work and how much effort, And especially I don't know about you guys, but at the start of a side hustle, when it you know, isn't making money and it hasn't got much traction and stuff like that, it can be kind of this weird thing where you're like, you don't want to tell people how much effort you're putting into it.
A farcy I thought at.
The time, and I've said this scene that if if anyone had seen those spreadsheets from when we were having like five hundred listeners per episode, they probably would have laughed at us, like it would have looked so ott. But I think at the end of the day, you've got to be willing to do those things that almost do seem ott and almost do seem embarrassing because you
have to start somewhere. You can't just bring that stuff in halfway through, because I don't think you can get the growth if you're not actively trying to pursue the growth.
Yeah, and there's no shame in taking your dreams and your goals seriously. Like you to yourself to take yourself seriously and your passion seriously, and you shouldn't downplay that or feel ashamed for.
That one hundred percent. And I think it's so important to touch on that. And I guess also a last thing to do with your at your podcast and the start of your podcast is run us through what was going through your head in regards to when you did start the podcast. And you know it wasn't almost like main string thing to do. It's very outside the box, so you're very much kind of paving your own way
and doing your own thing. And I think personally I am someone who in the sort of when I was younger, I guess more like I liked sticking to what was known and what everyone else did, and you guys have very much kind of blown that concept up. Can you talk about starting a business in regards to it being so new and it being so not done, if that makes sense.
I mean I personally really loved that element of it. I know that podcasting a few years ago was quite a niche, a very very different space in Australia compared to what it is now. But Zara and I were avid podcast fans. We came from a media company that had a podcast network, and we were seeing how popular podcasts were even then, and we were watching what was happening in the US and the UK, and we knew
that podcast was a huge mainstream platform over there. I think podcasting really came into its own in the US and about twenty sixteen twenty seventeen, and so Zara and I just thought, we like this is We love it. We listen to podcasts all the time. They're perfect for when we're busy, which is always if we're cooking, or we're driving somewhere or where I don't know, doing errands around the house or at the supermarket. We can listen to a podcast, whereas we can't watch a video or
read something. So we just thought, okay, well eventually it's going to come here. Like Australia tends to be a little bit behind with technology, trends.
We know that we're any tread.
To catch up any trend any basically, and the one call we saw we saw in the Australian podcasting space there was so much content for women over thirty, There was so much content for men across the board. There really wasn't any content for women in their twenties who care about stereotypically young woman things like we do. Like we love reality TV, we love talking about Instagram trends
and influencer culture and celebrity news. So for us, we're like, well, there's a whole let's just fill that hole.
And I think the other element to this is that we kind of felt like the content that was being aimed at women like all of us was being decided by boardrooms of people who didn't who weren't like us. So often they were men and middle aged men or middle aged women, and we were kind of like, well, what if we just created the content for people like us?
And when you ask about, like what's it like to create a business in this kind of like a new sphere, it was really interesting because we kind of just looked at what was happening and we're kind of like, let's just do the opposite of that, like, let's deliberately do the opposite of that and see how it works. And
it started to work. And then once it started to work, we found ourselves in conversations with bigger media companies and people in those boardrooms who were like asking us occasionally to come onto their network or kind of wanting to work alongside us. And every single time we entered those meetings, we kind of always left because they were still trying to apply their model to what we were doing, and we would always leave and be like, are we the
crazy ones here? Because I don't think what they're doing is going to work. And we would always leave these meetings and be like, I still feel like it's our track.
I want to I want to pursue, and I think that's what's worked for us the entire time is kind of like creating this new path, and it's been kind of beautiful because even people who have been in the media industry for decades are kind of all at ale level playing field now when it comes to podcasting because it is relatively new, and so you can kind of
create your own adventure. So that's what we've been doing, creating our own adventure because we feel like traditional traditional forms of media just can't really you can't really apply that model to what the new podcasting space is doing.
M I could not agree more. And can I just quickly say, guys, before your podcast and I've probably been listening for like just I found it just over a year ago. Wow, And before that, I am like, I'm a big self development person. That's what my whole podcast is about, so very much self development chunky. So any podcast I would listen to it wasn't kind of for fun.
It was almost like I was constantly like learning. And how I found your podcast was I actually had some sort of health issues with just being exhausted and I've recently been diagnosed with like a thiraid condition and stuff. So my my natural path was like, you know, listen to podcasts and have that time, but don't be like, you know, constantly like learning and doing. And so someone recommended your podcast and I was like, oh, I'm you know,
I'm not interested in news. I'm not interested in journalism,
like I'm very much in this other realm. And then I was listening to your podcast and I was like, I've never heard this sort of form of its still being like news and relevant topics, but like articulated and spoken it in a way where it was so easy to absorb and like it felt like I was talking with a friend and like the ideas, if that makes sense, And so one hundred percent what you guys said in regards to feeling something that was not there, and especially
like with pop culture, and like you said in regards it's not like it was a you know, a board sort of deciding these issues. You can tell that you guys do that together, and I think that's huge.
Thank you, that's so sweet, and that I think that comment you made about feeling like you're tuning into a chat with friends, that is literally what Zara and I have built the podcast around. We always want our listeners to feel like they are part of the conversation and they're having like a cup of tea with their girlfriends, because that's important to us. Every week we go into the podcast, we think, what are our friends talking about right now, what's in our group chats? Where are the
conversations happening, And we just try to emulate that. So like that's the biggest compliment in the world to us with Shameless.
And I think but I think that's really important because I think that's what makes the huge difference of in regards to you know, talking to friends. It's that connection of you when you feel like the person gets you. And I think because you have the same you know, experiences, and you know, there's so many times where I'm sitting there and you're talking about of really deep issues and
I'm like, yes, she gets me. I agree. But then we can talk about really and I just said we like, I'm sitting there with you guys, but that's how it feels like. But then you know, you guys can talk about really sort of fun, lighthearted things. I think it's such a good mix.
Well.
I think also.
I've said this a little bit, but I don't think that we would have able to create that kind of content or that kind of tone if we were under the banner of a bigger media company or you know, as part of those bigger structures, because we were able to create this by speaking about whatever the hell we wanted to speak about, Like no one was telling us not to say certain things.
And I think that in itself was very free.
One hundred percent. And I think that's exactly what you get from the podcast, which is the bit the big difference or I'm stumbling on my words. Yeah, all right, guys, So let's switch gears because I really want to get into this book kind of picking up, but again, so the space between, can you before we get into the actual content of the book, can you tell us a little bit about the process of writing it, just because
I just I couldn't imagine. It just seems like such a huge project and I know you guys have chatted about on your podcast it is, But just very quickly, can you tell us about what that experience has been like, because I'm sure it's sure.
Well, first of all, this has been almost a year and a half in the making. We signed the contract to write this book with Penguin Random House in April of last year. We began writing it then and kind of thinking of ideas then. And we know that some other duos and some other co hosts and co authors have written books together in that they've literally contributed to every single essay together, and they've kind of pasted to
laptop back and forth and written line by line. We didn't want to do that, Like, that's just not Zia and I I feel like, as much as we are similar we have quite distinct writing voices, and we write in quite different ways, so for us it was more important. We wanted this book first of all, to be fun and engaging, Like we wanted people to be able to go through the book and feel like they weren't being
drained or bogged down by the content. And that's a tricky thing to do, given there's some really quite emotional, deep, sometimes dark content in this book, Like there are stories of trauma, there are stories of anxiety and enomy, triosis and painful sex, toxic workplaces, toxic friends. But there are a bunch of like really light and funny stuff intersperse throughout.
So the way we wrote it was we kind of sat down, we thought, Okay, what are the major topics from our own lives that we want to write separately. We will write like longer form pieces three to five thousand words on those different topics. Zara brought up things from her life, like experiencing both of her parents having cancer. I brought up things from my life. We put them all in a Google doc and we're like, okay, how
is this mapping out? And then we thought, what are the funny things that we want to do together, Like let's write lists, and let's write email chains, and let's write creative pieces and just random experiences of your twenties, and let's collaborate on them. And those pieces, while they they're not the hero pieces of the book, Like when I'm looking at it now, I know that the standout pieces of the essays that really delve into deep topics.
I'm so glad we put those funny, silly, stupid listicals and funny things throughout the book because they make the whole experience kind of feel far more balanced and more indicative of what your twenties are really like.
To me, Yes, I love that, and I can I just say that, I really. I think my favorite parts in the books were the email chains, really, and it's so interesting because I am way more of like I thought it would be, more of the essays, and they were really great and I did love the li but I don't know the email chains. I think it's because I've never read that format in a book. It was really engaged.
Right, Well, we kind of wanted to emulate how we would have a conversation on the podcast. I guess because we were so many podcast listeners.
We're going to come to this book, and we.
Thought, well, let's actually hash out an issue that we're both kind of interested and invested in, but show our sides of the coin and kind of flesh it out together in a really long form way. And that really was the case of us opening the Google doc miss writing her answer, picking the message, being like, all right,
I've emailed you said can you reply? And I'd reply and we would literally just go back and forth, and it would be interesting because we'd kind of get halfway through and be like, where the fuck is this.
Chain going, Like there's no structure here, We're just writing to each other. But that was kind of the best part, and then you kind of refine it later. But I really loved doing those. I really really loved them.
They were like the fastest pieces that came together because you're not stressing so much over the structure of every sentence. It's very much about the conversation and how it flows.
And those are probably the least edited parts of the book as well. I think while we went through and we really edited and revised and redrafted the essays to get like to really hone in on what our point was or what the lesson was. The email chains I think we practically wrote them and we didn't really touch them. I don't even remember reading some of those essays that went into some of those email chains that went into
the book. So it's interesting to hear that's your favorite part because I think a lot of people probably be the same. They're the most representative of what the podcast is.
Like, I think that's what it is, and that it was just a bit fun, if that makes sense. Like it was good to get into the deep stuff, and like you said, like there was obviously issues there that were super dark and super important, but then sort of to break it up in this format where you guys were going back and forth and you could see both the sides, it was really cool. So I know the book is broken down into four parts, so we have love, Mind,
and Body, ambition and voice. Personally, the last two were my favorite because I think I fascinated with a lot of things that you guys have gone through, as you know, female, you know, I don't know if we want to call ourselves like entrepreneurs and having wanting to have opinions and wanting to have a voice, and I really want to get into something because personally, I grew up in a family of three older brothers and a very kind of you know, like normal household where my mom was a
stay at home mom and my dad you know, went out and earned the money. And to be honest, for a long time, I felt like, because I was this girl who was super like dominant and I had opinions and I, you know, had this voice, I felt almost a bit ashamed a lot growing up because it didn't feel I was very much told that that wasn't you know, what a woman was supposed to be. And so I really resonated the voice section of the book. And I've
got a chapter name here. I hope it's okay read it out, But it was called the space between finding your voice and feeling self conscious about having one. I think you wrote that, Sarah, Yeah, I did, and so I would love for you to expand on this. And I think a lot of you know, twenty somethink women are almost in this sort of space where it's like, yeah, I do have opinions and I do have this voice, but I also don't know when I should assert them
and be this dominant person. And I just resonated with it so much. I think when I was reading it, I was just like, Oh my god, this is it felt like I was reading my life. So I'd love if you could kind of expand on that.
Yeah, for sure. I mean I think that was one of I think that was an I say.
That came a bit later actually in the Peace, But I'm so glad I wrote it because I think it's probably gets the crux of how I like, fundamentally feel about having a voice and having a public voice, and it is that I like having a voice and I like having opinions that they are often wrapped in self consciousness even now, even today, like this is not me talking about four or five years ago, this is me
talking about me right now. And I think there's a line in the first sort of part of it where I just say, like, why the fuck would anyone listen to what I have to say anyway?
And it's true.
I think that's that and niggling thought that I've had in the back of my mind that I grew up in a household where I was encouraged to be incredibly opinionated and to question everything, and probably I think my parents probably thought they like birthed monsters because they encouraged us to have these voices, and then suddenly we were like questioning them on their politics and their religion and making every conversation me and my sister like almost irrationally
like feminist. And it wasn't until I kind of left the walls of my home, my family home, and kind of entered into the real world that I started to feel shame for that voice. Where I'd be sitting out for drinks and with friends and being really loud and opinionated, and then catching myself almost looking at myself from above being like shut up, like shut up, you're being so loud right now, or you're being so over the top right now. And I still feel myself doing that a
little bit. I think a lot of women kind of have these two competing forces, this idea that you have a lot to say, and then this niggling thought in the back of your mind that you should sort of articulate those thoughts palatably and gently in order to be liked.
And it's a really really.
Hard thing to grapple with for young women, young women anywhere. But I think the more the more I speak and the more I do this job, the better I get at it.
But it's still a process.
I think it's a really interesting one because personally, I've never felt self conscious about my voice around women. I do still sometimes feel self conscious about using my voice and sharing my opinions when I'm around a group of men, and it's something that I still need to work through. And I think it just it's helpful for women to point to that and be like, why do I feel
like that when I'm around guys? And I don't feel like that when I'm around my go my girlfriends, and I are all super opinionated, and I love that about us. I think it's a really healthy thing to have opinions on the world and to think critically about your life and critically about your place in society. But yet, when I'm in a group of guys, I do want to be liked, and I do want to be seen as this like feminine, easy friendly, easy going, doesn't take.
Her color girl.
And it's so funny because I'm sure so many of my guy friends would still be like, you're the most opinion advision.
Is this the tone down version of you?
Yeah? But I think we're trying to wrangle with and I think it's important that we raise young women. I mean, there's a piece in the voice section that I wrote to my future daughter. I'm not pregnant yet. I'm so terrified I've slip through the book yesterday. I'm like, I people could read this that I'm like announcing some pregnancy
or something that I'm pregnant with the girl. But I wrote that because I'm like, I want to raise my daughter to feel like she can say whatever she wants in whatever context she wants, and that her voice is needed and necessary for her to live the life she
wants to live. Because it's not just important to raise your opinion about the world in social scenarios, it's so important for women to do it in the workplace, Like if you're being mistreated, if you are upset about something going on at work, if you feel like something needs to change, you should be able to voice that. And I would really hope that the next generation of young girls will feel more emboldened to speak up when something's not right.
It's so funny, miss, because my next question was to talk about that letter to your daughter. And I think I must have been like super hormonal when I read it, because I literally started tearing up. But I was like, it is just so true, and I think it was kind of even though I had such an amazing childhood and you know that sort of thing, I still very much was like I wish someone had told me this when I was younger, and so I absolutely love that, and I think, like you said, it is so important.
There has been so many cumstances, especially in my career, like you said, Mish, in regards to you know, stuff happening and me going that is actually quite fucked and I should have, you know, spoken up, and I should have been that person. And now looking back, you know, like who I am now, Like I guess I will never know, but I think it's important to make sure we're telling women to Yes, you should have a voice and you should feel empowered, you know, to tell your
opinions and to have those conversations. So I love that you touched on that.
Thank you.
Another huge part of the book that I loved was in the mind and Body part. And I know that as Zara, you got into some very personal stuff with your endo, and I know, Mish you also got into very personal stuff with your anxiety, which, like I said priefily to you, guys, I think off air as I suffer with anxiety. So I really resonated with that part of the book. But my question to you guys is it is, you know, super personal and you're getting really into that sort of you know, the dark times and
the not so pretty times. What was that like writing that And did you have any sort of moments where you're like, I don't know if I want to share this, or did you just go, yeah, we need to put this out there.
A lot of people have wondered, like, what's it like depend down something so personal and wait for it to kind of be read by everybody else. And I think my honest answer is, well, I just didn't really think about it so that I was able to get it done,
And that is my honest answer. But I also think that writing this stuff, writing about maybe my worry about fertility or worrying or kind of exploring how a condition called vaginismus really messed with my mind for so many years, felt like a really beautifully cathartic thing to be able
to do. Like I genuinely felt like one of the luckiest people in the world to be able to kind of have time and space through my job to write out my thoughts and write out my feelings and actually make sense of them all because I don't think many people have that opportunity. It was incredibly therapeutic, and so
I kind of just wrote this stuff. And I think Mish was quite similar, just as if it was the two of us reading it, like if it was just for my eyes only, because I think if you're writing this stuff thinking about every other person in the world reading it, you wouldn't get it out. And the first version of my Vaginisma's essay was completely different to what is in the book. I submitted it in the first draft of the book. We got the first draft back and I read it back and I was like, I
hate this essay, like I hate it. And I remember sending it to Michelle and I was like, I don't know what's wrong with it, but I think everything's wrong with it. And she said to me, I think your issue here is that you're trying to tell this story without giving up much of yourself. Like you are trying to tell this story without telling much of the story because you're trying to protect yourself. But if you're going to tell the story, you kind of I have to
tell the story properly. You have to tell people exactly how you felt. And so I just rewrote the whole thing and I finished it. Really, I wrote it really quickly, and I punched it out and I finished it, and I was like, this is much better because they actually gave parts of myself over to the story, and for that reason, it's a better story now.
So I would I would.
I wish I had a better answer for you when it comes to like, well, what's it like to share this personal stuff? But I think I think the survival mechanism in me means that I haven't really thought about other people reading it yet.
Yeah. I think the anxiety of thinking about people reading it really only hit me in probably the two or three weeks leading up to publication. I think when we're in the editing process and the only people who knew about the stuff in the book was myself, Zara, and our wonderful team of editors, it felt very different. And the lead up has been really hard mentally on me. I do have an anxiety disorder. I wasn't anxious about
the anxiety essay in the book. There's an essay at the very very end of the book that I was very nervous to share because it was about an experience of when I was eighteen that I really hadn't told many people at all, and I had a full blown panic attack the night before launch. So Monday night, I had full blown panic attack, was uncontrollably sobbing, didn't know what to do with myself. Felt like I had made a huge mistake. And I don't think I have made
a mistake at all. I want to be really clear with that. I'm really happy that essays in the book. But I think the waiting process is quite agonizing. When you've shared this much of yourself, and you've written some of this stuff over a year ago, and then you just have to sit and wait and hope that it's received in the way you want it to be received.
That is fucking hard. And I think the night before launch, it was just this build up, like this complete buildup of emotion and worry and stress about this one particular essay. I just hope, like my one goal with this book is for people to think that it's a generous book. I think there's a lot to gain from people talking about the really difficult experience of their lives. And it was really important for Zara and I, even with her vaginismus essay or her fertility essay and the essay on
her parents both having cancer. All my essays that were really traumatic and upsetting that we didn't give unnecessary gory detail, Like we did not want to approach these essays and be like, here's my trauma and he's like a blow by blow account of exactly how it unfurled and how it unraveled. We wanted to use those experiences as a platform to be helpful, and I'm just hoping that our words can kind of help our readers map out how
they feel about their same trauma. So it's good that we had so much time because the last essay in the book I wrote it probably five different times. The first essay that went into the first draft is almost an entirely different essay to what went into the book. And I'm happy I had that process because I think mentally and spiritually I need to needed to get out
those details. I needed to write them on paper and feel that cathartic release and feel like I was retracing my steps and like the scars that that kind of experience leaves you with. But then I had the time to be like, Okay, why am I writing this? I'm not writing this for myself. I'm not writing this to tell everyone every single thing that happened. I'm writing this so that someone who has gone through the same thing can feel comfort and feel seen and feel heard and
feel a tiny little bit less alone. So the end, the final essay that goes in is like very very much about my feelings and my thoughts and the journey after that experience, not the experience of itself. And that was super important to boat Zara and I that we could kind of find some kind of comfort and hope and lesson to come out of each experience.
And I think you can, like I definitely when you were talking about like this not being heavy experience, you can definitely feel like it doesn't feel like you are just like letting out your trauma. It definitely does feel
comforting and helpful. And that's even like I there was a couple of sort of important issues that you talk about in the book that I personally haven't been for you been through, sorry, But I have friends you know, who have end doing different stuff like that, and it was super insightful for me to be like, oh, wow, this you know, this is how they are feeling, and so I completely agree with that, and I think also that's what makes you two so special is because you
are vulnerable, but it doesn't feel, you know, like heavy on me. If that makes sense. I think that does. So I think that's awesome. So last question about the book, and this is another favorite part, and it's when you guys spoke about I'll read the chapter Dame again. So
it's the rough and tumble on rejection. So you guys talked about when you pitched your podcast to a very well known media company and they considered it and you almost thought it was going to happen, but then it got pulled, and you really talk about this concept of rejection. But you know, in hindsight, this is what started this
huge journey and inventor of what Shameless is. Can you guys chat to us about rejection because I think twenty twenty for most of us has been a year with a lot of rejection at a lot of loss, where things have not gone the way we thought they would go. So I thought this was a really cool sort of section to end on. So you know, if someone has kind of had something and they've got rejection, can you chat them about what that was like for you guys? Give us a bit of a pep talk, you can do that.
I mean.
The thing is, when we had the idea for Shameless mich And I thought it was a good idea, like I said to you at the start, because we were like, here's this gap in the market that if we don't feel, somebody else will. So we did pitch it to the
media company we were working out at the time. They said yes, and then they said no. And then after that we said, okay, well can we do this ourselves, like are we able to kind of launch this independently on our weekends because we think it's a good idea, And they said yes, and then we kind of kept creating the podcast. But because we were completely self taught, like we had no idea how podcasting functioned. We did not know what equipment to use, We didn't know how
do we even host properly? We didn't we just didn't know the fundamentals. We kept pitching it to podcast networks too, Like we kept going to the big networks and being like, here's our idea, here's what we've got already, do you want it? And nobody took it on. And so after about a year of us making it we realized that that was the biggest blessing of all that nobody took it on, Like nobody saw this is a good idea.
Nobody did because nobody took it on board their network.
And I think and that's been the luckiest thing for our business because it means that now we work for ourselves. We have nobody else telling us what to do, what we should say. And I think, if there's someone out there who has an idea that feels like nobody's taking it on, but you still think that's a good idea, and you still think there's a gap in the market, pursue it. Just because other people don't see your idea
doesn't mean it's wrong. No albready saw our idea and that was why we were able to create it in the way that we did, and it was the best thing that happened for either of us.
So we get pictures.
All the time, all day, every day, and we don't take any external pictures outside of the company. But I imagine that there are women who email us who see that we don't reply and assume that means we think that their idea is bad. But the reality is we will probably pass on a million good ideas because we don't have the time to think about it. So I would just say, if you think you're sitting on something good, keep pursuing it.
I think that's the important thing to realize. There is no one person, or one group of people, or one boardroom that knows what's going to work and what doesn't. Everyone is guessing. Yes. Of course, experience can come into it, and some people will have a better hunch as to what's a good idea and what's a bad one than other people. However, nobody, not the best, most brilliant entrepreneur or investor in the world, knows every single time what
idea is going to work. And I think it's important for women, particularly young women, who generally do not take the same risks that young men do in business and in career, know that know that your opinion on your idea is worth just as much as anyone else is. If you think it's a good idea, please please, please at least give yourself the opportunity to pursue it. Who's to say that that boardroom of people who aren't your age,
aren't your demographic, are not your target customer. Know more about your idea and whether or not all work than you do. I think it's important to look at your circle, and we did look at our circle in those early days of our sisters, who are basically the shameless brain trust. That's how much we trust them with every single thing we do. We also our best friends, and we thought, would they like our idea? Fuck the people in the boardroom who said no to us, they're all in their
forties and they're not our target demo. Our target demo are our friends and our sisters, and the people like us. Would they listen? Would they like what we're doing, or would they buy our product or whatever your business is. If your answer is yes, then do not listen to people who are outside your demo trying to tell you how to do what you want to do. Like, just give yourself a shot, because it's the best thing we
ever did. And even if it failed, the amount of things, and even if it does fail one day, who's to say that next year everyone leaves our podcast and doesn't listen to it anymore because Zara and I become shit at our jobs or we're not on the.
And what people are complete narcissists.
Even if that happens, it is worth it. The amount you learn and the amount you grow from pursuing your goal and pursuing your dream is so insane, Like we have grown so much as people and as media professionals, so there's no loss here, Like, even if it doesn't work, you're to gain so much from it individually. So just give yourself a shot, guys.
I was just like nodding my that a whole time. Thank you so much for something summing that up, I could not agree more. And you know, what is that quote? It's like, rejection is just redirection. Yes, I love that I heard it.
That's awesome.
Oh really yeah, And I think that is that is so true. And I think also that's such a great reminder because just imagine if you guys got that rejection and then that was it and you just left it and you didn't pursue this, like you know, Shameless wouldn't be here. And I think that's so important for the listeners, you know, to realize that if you've got something and it feels right to you and you have that motivation
and that passion, keep going for sure. Amazing. So God, a podcast, a book, what is next for shameless?
Asleep?
Asleep? And you know, what like out of the holiday and be like, oh my god, We've got all these projects that we're lining up and we're so excited. And we do have some like we're doing season three of Love et cetera, our podcast with Bumble, which is really exciting that'll come out later this year. But apart from that, you know what we want a holiday. We want to be able to travel when that's allowed, travel with our
partners and experience things and take a breath. Because as much as we adore work and as much as we love what we do and it brings us so much fulfillment, we are hugely socially oriented and we adore our partners, and we adore our families and our friends, and we want to spend time with them. We really miss them right now in lockdown, So that is the utmost priority for both of us.
And I wonder if you're the same as our storagey.
But next year, I don't think we have anything on right like, in terms of work, we have no project locked in and that excites me to no end because what that means is that it's a complete life canvas that we can kind of make whatever we want when we feel like it, when we're in this headspace.
We've got ideas, We've got a blank canvas to work with.
So I'm so excited about that that we can kind of use the next few months to kind of lie low and then over summer come up with some ideas and then just smash them out next year.
Like that excites me too.
One hundred percent. I am in the exact same b I because we were meant to go to Europe this year. I didn't take any leg Christmas holidays or anything at the end of last year, so I feel exhausted. I feel exhausted, and I've just yeah, I had one thing after the other. So I am the exact same boat, and I absolutely love that. It's honestly a kind of like a breath of fresh air. Makes me feel less guilty for wanting to do the exact same I'm glad. Well,
thank you so much, miss and Zara. You guys have just been bloody amazing and I cannot thank you enough for your time for coming on the show. Before we leave, you, guys, can you let the audience know where they can find the book holding our hands and where to find you guys.
Okay, well, first of all, I know that a lot of people listening to podcasts will have a preference for audiobooks. There is an audiobook for the space between. It was really important for us to do that, So I've just literally knocked out my headphones as I say that. So you can buy our audiobook on Audible or Google Books or whatever it's called. Wherever you get your audiobooks, it'll be.
As for the paperback version, you can get it on book topio if you want to have it delivered if you're in lockdown, or you can go to any good bookstore like Dimmis. You can go to Big W Target, Kmart.
It is there amazing. And also where do they find Shameless Like, I'm sure.
Shame find us on Instagram. I think Instagram is the best. But you can find us on Instagram at Shameless Podcast. And we also have a book club community on Facebook which is Shameless Podcast book Club, which we love.
We just talked about books set.
I love it and I so I had already got the Audible version like in pre launch, so I used my credit and got that and then I got the physical copy. So I'm excited to listen to audio. So is it just you guys?
Yeah, it's like one big long podcast.
Can't wait. Well, thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Georgie.
You're huge fans of yours and you're doing an awesome job. And it's so good to see other women in this industry kind of take the microphone for themselves and share their thoughts and take up space. I think more women need to take up space in the media. And we're such big fans of yours and it's so great to see all the success you're achieving. So well done.
I really appreciate that. And yes, let's take up some more space. And that is it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat. I absolutely loved interviewing Mish and Zara from Shameless and guys, if you did love this episode, if you love the podcast, please give us a review or make sure you're subscribed. It really helps out the Rise and Conquer podcast. And if you do love the podcast and you love the conversations that we have, I think that you would love
our Facebook group, So come and join us. It's just Rise and Conquer podcast community and yeah, it's a private group where we chat all things we do on the podcast, but thank you so much for listening. I'll chat to you in our next step