The Bitchiest Celeb Interview Of All Time

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Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello, everybody. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm very, very well. Are you excited about Christmas? I am hugely excited about Christmas. I'm very excited about Christmas.

There does seem, as always at this point in the year, quite a few things that need to happen before Christmas is coming. It's now in the turbo busy phase, but I'm very excited about it. I guess so, but imagine being Santa.

That's even worse. I always think at this time of year, however much there is to do, you've got to decorate the tree and so on. At least you're not Santa. I mean, that's a huge amount of work that he's got to do. One of the great distributors of... of our era I would have thought that he would be perfect for celebrity traitors because early next year his time frees up a bit he doesn't have like a

heart breakfast show or anything to do. But secondly... Can I shock you? Yeah. They film it in May. No, I'm sure that's what I'm saying. I'm saying so it's like in his time... I think it's ramped up again by May. No, I think he would be fine. But also imagine two things. Firstly, amazing traitor. I mean, mind-bogglingly amazing traitor, but also an incredible faithful. And imagine if you've got Father Christmas. Okay, the double threat.

Book him. If they've got a spot that they're saving for something really amazing then book him. Don't you think so? Yes. What are we talking about this week? We are talking about maybe the biggest AI news in entertainment. that has been slightly snuck out this week, but it is a huge game changer. Disney have signed a deal with OpenAI. I think this is the beginning of everything that is about to happen with AI.

And there are upsides and downsides. We will talk about it. But it's the biggest AI story, I think, since we've been on air. And I don't just mean in the last five minutes. Yeah. We're also going to talk about, you will have seen Quentin Tarantino's disparaging comments about a few actors, the furore.

is ongoing. Seeming everyone has piled in and said it's the most outrageous thing that this opinion was voiced. Yeah, so why does no one ever slag off anyone in Hollywood? Yeah, and so I've got a tour through some of the great slaggings of recent years. Oh my God, I knew you would.

We're also going to talk about what is happening with podcasts. They're going to Netflix. The rest is footballer doing a Netflix thing at the World Cup. Are podcasts becoming television by the back door? And what does that mean? Let us begin then. AI. The genie, I think, is out of the bottle.

And that genie is the genie from Aladdin. But you're not allowed to use Robin Williams' voice. But it will look exactly like the genie from Aladdin. And if you want to do an impression of Robin Williams... You can. Let's rewind. Yes, rewind. Disney has signed a deal with OpenAI, Harbingers of Doom, or, you know, great innovators, delete is applicable.

to license, I think, 200 of their characters for use in Sora 2, which is a second generation of their AI video generation platform. It's like ChatGPT, you type in some prompts and it makes videos rather than text. I mean, it's a little bit like when, you know, when Steamboat Willie, that version of Mickey Mouse went out of copyright. This is now like, apparently everything else is out of copyright. Well, not literally everything else, because there are certain things, as you say, they...

You can't use talent voices or talent likenesses. Yeah, you can use all of the animated characters, essentially, all the big ones. Yeah. And you can use Darth Vader, because Darth Vader wears a mask. You can use Deadpool. So anything that they own. that essentially doesn't look like an actor currently living, you can use to your own ends to make short films with, which is exactly what people are going to be doing. So they've got into bed with open AI. Weirdly, they haven't even...

They haven't really paid open AI. They've been allowed to invest in open AI. So they've sort of paid $1 billion.

to sign this deal. It's a three-year licensing deal for these things. It allows them to have stock in OpenAI, allows them... Which is currently worth about... Maybe it's worth $500... No one really knows because it's... such a sort of tissue of deals but maybe it's 500 billion maybe it's more but certainly if you were heavily invested in animation this is a pretty good hedge to have which is to invest in the technology which is going to destroy the business you're currently in

which seems to be what they're doing. They're licensing those things for three years, at which point there are options on both sides to increase that. But it's the thing that people have talked about for a while, which is AI are going to scrape everything we do.

Anyway, so why don't we, as Disney, make some money out of it? The people not making money out of it, by the way, are the Disney animators and the people who work at Disney, the people who will make money out of it, are the people who run Disney and the people who own, you know.

own large bits of disney because this is a hedge against the future and investing in a in a stock they hope goes up and up and up and up but what it does it opens the floodgates for anyone really to do anything with any of those Disney characters. To me, it is so fascinating because of all the studios, this is the most gate-kept, most sort of litigated. They've always commercially ring-fenced their things.

And, you know, it's a hundred years of history. It's this whole prestige thing. And, you know, now you're going to be able to see Elsa fight Princess Leia and then kiss. And by the way... I'm going to come on to some examples of things that already, but as you say, things are already out there. You know, there's loads of stuff, kind of fake Pixar, because remember, Disney owned their own legacy black brand. They own...

Star Wars, Pixar, Marvel. So there's a whole, you know, they got all those marks underneath there. And essentially anyone in those universes who is unidentifiable is now fair game. Yeah. I mean, you're not getting anyone from Avatar because I...

I don't think they would like to do that to James Cameron. No, that has been sliced out of the deal. Yeah, that's not included in this initial tranche. Let's put it that way. But Bob Igo, who's Disney CEO, said, I mean, I find it really amazing the way they talk about... it he said you know you know we're putting technology and imagination and creativity directly into the hands of disney fans in a way you've never seen before and sam altman of whom i'm not a fan um the open ai

It shows how AI companies and creative leaders can work together responsibly to promote innovation that benefits society. I mean, really. Respect the importance of creativity and help works reach vast new audiences. It does not do, by the way, any of those things. What it does is return investment to the bosses at Disney and the bosses of OpenAI.

And that's all. The more in the last couple of years, the stuff that's happening, the more I think, my God, if Marx came back today, he'd be like, I told you. He said, look, this is literally it's been hidden away so much, but you couldn't have a better example of how capital just.

absolutely builds on itself and consolidates and everyone else is thrown, you know, onto the pile. All this is, is the consolidation of money into the hands of fewer and fewer and fewer and fewer people. And you can say, you know, those three things you just said, Sam Walton said. Just go one by one. What was the first one? They can work together responsibly to promote innovation that benefits society.

Respect the importance of creativity and help works reach vast new audiences. It doesn't do any of those things. It literally does not. All of those things are currently doable. We've been doing those for years. People have been making a living out of those things.

for years and years and years. People have loved Disney for years and years and years. There's no one out there who's going to be introduced to Mickey Mouse via this. Exactly that. The people who are making... Bob Iger will make money from this. Sam Altman will make money from this. Nobody else is going to make money from this. Nobody else is going... I hope you will, and we'll get to that in a minute. I do think that there is an element of this. This is just a tiny little side note, but...

There's something about the timing of this where everyone is losing their minds about, maybe rightly so, about Netflix buying Warners or maybe now Paramount coming in with a hostile, but we talked about this last week, as we know. And it's almost as that sort of forgotten civil servant once said, you know, this is a very good day to bury bad news. There's an element of like...

well, you're all quite busy with that. We're just going to make every creator's worst nightmare come true by saying, yeah, no, we're just giving them this stuff and they can do what they like. Yes, because also, by the way, this is a two-way street. So as well as, you know, saying anyone can use this.

It opens, it says, and in return for that, OpenAI give Disney absolute power to use OpenAI and Sora in any way they work. They're going to specifically build tools for Disney. Okay, here we go. So, who's... gaining there? Well, I mean, Disney's budgets will be lower. Will the product be different that you're watching at home? No, so you're not gaining at all. The product will be exactly the same. But will they say that there are going to be, I mean, they say that there are going to be

fan-created works on Disney+, which is like, oh my God, you know, finally the fans will be in charge of Star Wars. And by the way, All of this is, listen, we have technology, things change, culture changes, creative people react against what the prevalent technology is. All of that is fine. But every single time somebody says to you, oh, this is great news for consumers.

You have to say, okay, just walk me through. Walk me through how this is great news for consumers. Walk me through how this is great news for the industry. Walk me through how this is great news for creativity. It's not, right? Just be open. Just say, this is great news.

for how much money I'm going to have in five years time. It's not great news for how much money you're going to have in five years time. But oh my God, as I say, if Marx came back, he would be like, whenever I see any conspiracy theorists, I'm always like, from the right, from wherever, I just say.

You know, this is all Marx. You know, he said this like hundreds of years ago. You know, if he came back, he'd go, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know. I know that everything's being, you know, run for the benefit of a small group of people. But I told you who that was. It's the bosses, the people who own all of this stuff. And everything they do, every decision they make is to increase their revenue. And if that's at the expense of your revenue, that's all well done good.

It's always been the case. No one's winning here apart from the people who've already got the money. I agree. And what I think is sort of slightly tragic about all of this is I'm not even sure whether Bob Iger and Disney are even in the little group of people anymore because the big tech is the little group of people.

There is a counterpoint to this, which I'm just going to put in the interest of fairness. It's not all marks. Yeah, it's not all marks. Disney has rapaciously licensed every one of those characters a million times onto everything from, obviously, lunchboxes, duvet covers, just whatever.

Also, what can you do with something that's trying to eat your face other than try and get on its back, which is probably their argument. ChatGPT, don't forget, OpenAI said, oh, all of you studios, in fact, not even you studios. Every individual creator is going to have to opt out. Otherwise, we're just going to assume that we can train Sora too on this. And so trying to manage it, there was a line in Bob Iger's statement, which was, we'd rather participate.

which I felt was like, oh, because Disney are a particular case. I mean, everyone's a particular case, but their particular circumstances are that they entered the streaming wars late. Yeah. They felt it doesn't matter. We can enter the Three Million Wars when we like because we're Disney and we've got all the stuff. Well, ever since they bought Star Wars and Marvel, they thought we are absolutely future-proofed ourselves in every way possible. And within three years, it's like...

Oh dear, we don't compete with Netflix. We haven't at all. We've got all this stuff. We spent unbelievable billions actually trying to compete with Netflix and it didn't work. They also don't have anything in user-generated content. And a lot of... people don't, but they don't have anything in user-generated content. So you're thinking they don't want to be caught napping or caught being arrogant again. So they are really selling all of this stuff down the river to say,

Well, at least we were there at the start, or they're not there at the start, but at least we're leading the frenzy. I mean, I don't disagree. I don't know what else they can do because this is coming down the pipe at them. I just think you have to be open about it. You have to be honest about it. And you do have to try and...

spread the benefits of it if you can and i i don't think they will do that but yeah if you're disney then you are in um certainly the content side of disney the animation side of disney which is what a lot of people think of when they think of classic disney is It takes a really, really long time to make. If you have a flop, you've got another three years to wait until your next one comes along. And suddenly, Disney isn't always on.

company they've got this um these cast of characters they've got this ip and suddenly there's going to be content just on tap constantly because they've got open ai building the tools for them and what that's the other thing is because open ai are doing the tools

the product that they are making themselves is going to be quicker and quicker and quicker. So for Disney, it kind of, it makes absolute sense. But, you know, for again... And also the level of sort of, the idea that, you know, really interesting things are going to be produced by this. Okay. Some will. Some will, but amongst the slop, the hit rate will be obviously... wildly diminished. And there is already lots of sort of fake Disney stuff on Sora. Lots of Disney and Pixar stuff.

Just remember, it's not supposed to be anything adult. There's nothing. But I saw, I've seen so many of these. You know, there's a trailer about this guy and he's got a really strong arm. How does his arm get so strong? a really overdeveloped right arm, you know, meet Master Beta. And it's all like done as Pixar. And then there's a team of little girl gymnasts and they call themselves Predator. And I was like, oh, this is so, like, it always ends, you know.

What are you putting into the search boxes? I've just watched a montage of fake...

Pixar trailers that are available now on Sora. And by the way, Disney don't own any of that. And they haven't released every single sort of the back end of this entire deal. But Disney will own... a large proportion of anyone who does you know it'll be user generated but will be disney ip owned and again well they've sent a cease and desist immediately to google to say you can't do this anymore to gemini you can't do good luck with that and if disney sue you they've got a chance of you

paying them back, whereas if an individual writer whose work has been scraped wants to sue them, very, very difficult to do. But I do think Disney have done it, as you say, they've hidden it in a good week to hide things. it does mean that genie is out of the bottle it does mean that all of the other companies that would be beholden on them to do the same thing and so it means that all of this stuff this stuff we talked about a couple of years ago which is which is you know that

Anything that you love, any franchise that you love, you will be able to create your own version of it. You'll be able to put yourself in it. You'll be able to put whoever you want in it. And that's the thing that starts now is that everything is everything. All of this particular period reminds me, on a much more enormous scale, of what happened with

print publishers, newspapers, we used to call them, when Google turned up. And none of them, like, they just gave everything free to Google because they wanted to seem modern. And they didn't want to be left behind. And they didn't understand. And they believed all, you know. All of this stuff that the Google founders and people like that said to them, which is like, oh, information wants to be free. It's like, no, no, you want our stuff for free.

That's different. And actually, look at them now. It's a business that's completely destroyed itself. Not completely, but it's massively, massively. devalued itself and i believe that this is just a devaluation of of all of the because people wanted eyeballs you see yeah they're not so much in the eyeballs game now disney they're not worried about that so much but they're worried about just like losing

influence or, you know, not having anything in user generated. But you can only get it by devaluing your own creation. Well, to give an example, if your experience of Donald Duck in the next 20 years is... a series of 30-second long user-generated videos, then it is... In which he does quite unspeakable things. Yeah, it is absolutely indistinguishable from if I have David Duck and I do something that, you know, it's...

indistinguishable. The fact that it's Donald Duck becomes meaningless within a couple of years when there's so much of it because you haven't created something. Nonetheless, people will sit and have a month-long meeting in Burbank saying, I just don't think he'd do that. Whereas nobody is sitting in their bedroom on their computer just thinking, well, first of all, that's disgusting.

no, I don't think he'd do that. Everyone's just like, I'm just going to make him do that. There's an amazing piece by Corey Doctorow, who's a guy who came up with the term inshittification, which I sent to you this week about AI. Oh, it's brilliant. It's really interesting. It's ahead of a book that he's writing, which is called The Reverse Centaur.

Basically, the reverse centaur, the image of that is, you know, if you are a human head with the body of AI, then it's quite useful because it's your brain and something's carrying you. Whereas actually, it's... what we're going to have is an AI head and you're the body who's going to have to carry it around. You're going to do all the work. You work for it. Yeah, he talks about radiology. He said, well, look, if you have 10 radiologists and their work is checked by AI.

then that's great. That really works. However, if you sac nine of your radiologists and everything's looked at by AI and there's one radiologist who has to just double check AI, then that person has all the responsibility, whatever AI hallucinates.

It's going to be his fault. So that's his basic principle. But one of the really interesting things that I thought in that essay was he talks about how insignificant the entertainment industry... is to ai yeah okay all it is is a shop window you know if you if you you know looked at the kind of uh the noise around ai so much of it is books music film tv and ai doesn't care i mean there's not

That's a really, really tiny industry for AI. If you're AI, you care about healthcare, you care about energy grids, you care about supply chain automation, you care about the finance industry. There are trillions and trillions of dollars. All this is is publicity. All this is is a shop window. It's a slop window. It's for, you know, what AI can do to make sure that every single office in every single country in the world and every single business is saying, oh my God, I mean, my...

Kid did this on ChatGPT. I wonder if we could use this for our supply chain. I wonder if there's a way that we could use that. So entertainment for them, they don't care. So Disney has signed this deal. They own a bit of open AI.

fine, you know. It's just a loss leader. But it really, really is. Because, you know, the entertainment industry, the one thing they can do is, you know, put up a fuss. You know, they have a, they have a, you know, they have a... Oh, they can do fuss. See you on the next item. Yeah, they can really do fuss. But it's nothing to them. It's meaningless as a revenue stream. They could sell every book in the world.

And it would mean nothing compared to 0.1% of, you know, logistics for shipping lanes out of Asia. I mean, it's literally meaningless other than it's an amazing, amazing shop window. But it just... is going to make us all culturally a bit poorer. Because the entertainment industry is allowing itself to be used in this way. But what can you do? I mean, genuinely, if you are, again, counterpoint, if you are Disney, what is it that you can do?

I wouldn't allow it. I just genuinely think, look at what happened to newspapers. They devalued their own, and now people are paying for things, and people are paying for expensive newsletters, and they're paying for, I don't know, websites like Puck or something like that.

That's actually quite expensive and has people in all different fields covering lots of different things. And they're paying a lot of money for those prestige things. They don't want to pay for newspapers anymore because those people just completely devalued everything. And they chased things at the wrong time.

editorial creatives made business decisions and they made bad ones and now look there's nothing there's nothing much left and everyone is you know pivoting again to video and doing all sorts of things again to try and save themselves But it's a bit late because they just got so seduced by the idea of being part.

of modernity and at the forefront of it. And in fact, they were just being completely used by it. And when they weren't needed anymore, then they could say, oh, sorry, we're turning off the news feed on Facebook now. We don't need it. It's just actually more of a hassle than it's worth to us. It's like...

oh my God, now no one will see our stuff anymore. Yeah, so the proposition is how do we get our quality journalism out there to a wider audience and cheaper? And it ends up, how do we get our quality journalism out there to a smaller group of people?

and more expensive. Would valuing ourselves have actually worked better than devaluing ourselves? And that's the central question. And Disney has decided that devaluing themselves is better and then maybe they don't have a choice or it's the better choice.

Two not great ones. But it's not, you know, the end game for OpenAI, there's an amazing thing that came out this week called Non-Player Combat, which is the world's first 100% AI reality show. You can watch it on YouTube. It's essentially a battle royale show where six contestants, AI contestants, are put in different environments and they each have to survive and then kill each other. They're dropped onto a fake island. One of them's sort of in the Arctic, one of them's in a jungle.

And it looks amazing up to a point. And three of them used to be in the army. One of them goes, I had a tough upbringing. Cut to a picture of someone in front of a massive house in America. I mean, the whole thing is... One of them's in the army and he became a Navy Seer, which I thought was interesting. Yes, hold on a minute. But also, they have a presenter, a character called Clara Voss, who literally does like five minutes, you go...

No, I'm so sorry. The whole point of this is you don't have to do that. You don't have to do the, I'm going to explain what this show is. Just drop them in there and have them fight each other. Okay, we can handle that. It is so boring. The interesting thing about it is it's so unsatisfying. It doesn't scratch. any itch at all as a viewer. I mean literally none. Every single thing it does can be done better by television or video games. There is nothing that it does.

I found it unwatchable. Unwatchable. Do you remember in the old video games when they were advertised on TV and you'd be like, wow, no disrespect because Call of Duty now looks amazing, but early versions of those things and you'd be like, wow, this looks amazing. And there'd be a little line on.

the ad saying not actually in game footage. Yeah, not game footage. All right. Well, this, it felt to me like, even though it's, you know, the graphics are whatever it's called. Yeah, it looks absolutely fine. But it's so... It left me so cold that I felt like I was watching game footage. But unlike in gaming where I have agency, what's the point of this? But that's like, remember when everyone said, oh, 3D TV, that's going to be a big thing. And you go, well, no, because it's not.

Smellow vision. Doesn't give us anything. And the guy behind it, he was a director and everything he's done gets like a 3.9 on IMDB. So at some point, someone will get hold of AI and do something extraordinary with it. Just letting AI do it is not going to work for anybody. But also, that is not what, you know, nobody's master plan is. How do we replace the entertainment industry with AI? It's not going to, there's not money in them. But...

Unfortunately, the side effect of the deals that they are now doing means that... That's where we're going to head. So no one creatively is winning, really. Creative people do amazing things with AI. And you talk to most creative people and they find a way that AI is useful for them. But a future where AI creates. the programs that we watch and the films that we watch and the music that we listen to. It's sort of for the birds.

I think. That sort of grift, the endless thing of saying, you won't be replaced by AI, but you'll be replaced by someone using AI. It's like kind of jump on the boat now, guys, or else you're going to miss it. And I do, there is a sense of panic in what Disney has done. You will be marking. AI's homework for the rest of your life. And every time it gets something wrong, I tell you who's getting fired. It's not AI. It's you. What do we do about it? What?

I feel that it's such a shame in some ways that it's Disney because although, as I say, they have rapaciously marketed everything forever, but...

If there is a sense, if they're doing it with all of that stuff, then will everyone else just, is there just a sort of pride that you can't resist and you have to follow? You know, at the moment, you can't use people's likenesses. But in the same way that, you know... music people bowie and didn't people worked out years ago hold on when i'm 60 or 65 i'm going to sell every single one of my rights for 300 million to a you know an investment company if you are

I'm not saying Robert De Niro, but say you're Robert De Niro and an investment company says, here is half a billion pound for your likeness. We're not worried about him, are we? How do you pick apart the people who worked on an animation? But exactly that. The people like Robert De Niro are going to be able to sell themselves, you know, the Brad Pitt's of this world. They will be able to sell their likenesses and their voice in perpetuity. But...

That means that who else comes to, you know, the pipeline starts getting clogged by people who were famous 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago who can still star in movies. There comes a point where that whole industry gums up, I think. Yes, I think you're right. Because creativity...

just it's you can't keep it down you know you can't that's the point of creativity you know whatever the conditions have been in whatever society has ever been creative people find a way through they find a way through the cracks and the more and more monolithic

these big companies get and the more and more they think oh actually we're controlling more and more of this industry and i just think they sow the seeds of their own destruction and i think this disney deal with open ai although you can see how it makes sense around a boardroom table i don't think makes sense for the long term of the industry and also it is not going to help any of us and they should stop lying and saying that it is they should just say shareholder value that's all it is yeah

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Welcome back, everyone. Before we talk about Tarantino slagging people off, which I'm looking forward to, just to point people in the direction of our episode on Thursday, our Q&A, which is with Simon Cowell. I found it genuinely fascinating. If you haven't watched Simon Cowell, the next act on Netflix, and you have Netflix, and you're going to listen to that interview, it's definitely worth watching an episode or two if you want to, because I think we...

had some disagreements with him about what was going on in that show. It was quite an event. I rather enjoyed it. Yes, very much so. Very much so. So that's out on Thursday or it's out today to members.

Quentin Tarantino, a week or so ago, he went on Bretty Snellis' podcast, which is a place famously for speaking your mind. And I think the question put to him was like, you know, can you talk about your 10... best movies so far of the 21st century. In the course of... talking about various things. He said, oh, there will be blood will be higher up, but I don't like Paul Dano. You know, he's the sort of young little preacher who plays opposite Daniel Day-Lewis.

And Quentin Tarantino said, obviously, it's supposed to be a two-hander, but it's drastically obvious it's not a two-hander, and Paul Dano's weak sauce. Listen, he got on a roll. He said he's weak sauce. He's a weak sister. He is the weakest male actor in the SAG. He is the limpest dick in the world. He is a weak, weak, uninteresting guy. Yeah, it's a podcast. I mean, that's how people talk, isn't it? Some other people got a few. There were a few other drive-bys. Owen Wilson.

He put Midnight in Paris at the Woody Allen film at number 10, and he said, I really can't stand him. And then he said, but actually, I watched it again and thought, oh, actually, maybe I'm just watching for him. And by the end, I thought, oh, he's not that bad. So he's just sort of talking around this, like Matthew Lillard. By the way, I cannot believe...

if you bothered reacting to it because he's just opened enormously in Five Nights at Freddy's 2 which may not be a critical darling but he's made a lot more than Quentin Tarantino's last movie did when it opened at the box office so you know

And Quentin Tarantino is an arsehole. Anyway, Matthew Lillard said it hurts your feelings. It fucking sucks. He wouldn't say that to Tom Cruise. I mean, I doubt he would care. I'd love to hear what Quentin Tarantino had to say about Tom Cruise quite frankly. He's a weak sister. You might like him a bit more as an actor, but now Matthew Lillard's child has written a defense of him. No. So many film industry names have come out and have supported for, like, poor Dana.

Ben Stiller said he's amazing. You know, Matt Reeves, the Batman director, has said he's an incredible actor, an incredible person. Alec Baldwin's kind of coveted Alec Baldwin endorsement these days. Daniel Day-Lewis has let it be known by his representatives that, you know...

been the most enormous blow up okay quentin tarantino is a brilliant director and an obvious, notorious arsehole. Every cameo, by the way, that he's ever insisted on in all his movies, he's rubbish-ing. He's not a great actor. He's not a great actor, okay? I wouldn't call him strong sauce. No, he's not strong sauce. Is he a strong sister?

No, I don't mind the monologue in the kitchen and sleep with me about whether Top Gun's a gay movie, but that's an old one and it's not even his movie. I have to say, but I feel that the entertainment industry in particular needs more candor and... drama and people saying things. Now, you may not like it. By the way, I wouldn't even bother reacting to it. So what? It's just literally, it's something someone said on a podcast. Not to be rude, but...

So much prefer it when people talk like this. And the idea that creatives don't do this. I love that comment that Sydney Sweeney made last year when she said, the entire industry, all people say is women empowering other women. None of it's happening. All of it's fake and affront.

all the other stuff they say behind everyone's back. Yes, it's Hollywood. They're absolutely vile about each other. But that's why reading... But they keep it secret. Don't keep it secret. Stop keeping it secret, okay? Authenticity. Sorry to go back to the endless watchword of the age. is what people want. All the ascendant media is authentic and people are out there swashbuckling all day long.

The reason part of their influence has ebbed away is because everybody thinks they're fake. And they are fake because they are all slagging each other off behind each other's back all the time. Well, any autobiography of any Hollywood film director or actor is...

always brilliant because they tell the truth about what happened. They're like, why didn't you say that about Steve McQueen at the time? That's amazing. But at least you've said it now. Nowadays, you just don't hear anybody speaking their mind at all. And I was just trying to think of like...

When you do, it is genuinely hilarious. So can I just do some of the great... Yes, please. I'm going to start with... I think probably Tarantino was punching down there. But...

Let's have some punching across because punching across is great. How can you hate punching across? Okay. Sharon Osbourne on Amanda Holden. They're both in the Simon Cowell Extended Universe, as you know. She said, the truth is you don't know me, Amanda. You know nothing about my history in the music industry, my achievements. the artists I've worked with, the shows I've produced, and my global celebrity. Unlike you, the brand of Sharon Osbourne is known worldwide.

Danny Minogue, Sharon Osbourne said about her, working with her was unbearable, intolerable, and an odious chore. Outwardly, Danny seemed, oh, I love kids and puppies, but in my opinion, she was dark.

Very dark. What you saw was definitely not what she got. Yes, please. You see, Reaper Everett did it with Madonna. I mean, that's punching up, I think. Reaper Everett on Madonna. I think he's like... called her a whiny old barmaid, a she-man. He later said, I was trying to be complimentary. I don't know why she took it so badly. But this is what we want. But I believe there is a high watermark of this, completely high watermark. It is totally punching up. This guy is my hero.

Bronson Pinscher, I've mentioned this on this before, but I'm going to do some of the quotes from this interview. The Onion have a sister publication called The AV Club. And really, honestly, this is about 10 or 15 years ago. Can we explain who Bronson Pinscher is? He has lots and lots of kind of...

character roles in movies he's like the art gallery owner in Beverly Hills Well that's the thing that everyone knows him from is when Eddie Murphy is doing that supposedly improv scene with Bronson Pinchot when he's trying to get into the gallery and it's all you know

It's him. He's saying, you know, get out of here. I can't because it's true. I think his name is Serge. He's a black polo necked LA gallery. That's Bronson Pinchot. I was not aware that he was a Serbic. I believe it's probably the greatest celebrity interview.

because of the people he goes for. Okay, he says few recollections on every film, okay? And he says, well, you know, one of the most freeing things about not being on primetime TV anymore, especially when it's aimed at children, is that you don't have to edit so much. My God, back in the day, you couldn't say anything, okay?

We begin with Tom Cruise, with whom he appeared in Risky Business. He said that Tom Cruise was tense and he made constant, constant unrelated homophobic... comments and he said years later when people started to torment him with that i used to think god that's so fitting because you tormented a lot of people as a 20 year old um by the way there are people like tom hanks who he says are just absolutely wonderful yeah of course and said just completely delightful blah blah

But my favourite, because we can't do all of it, but I do urge you to find it. We'll put it in the show notes, this interview, is Denzel Washington. Because again, this is punching up if you're Bronson Pinchot. He said he was encouraged under fire with him.

He said he's one of the most unpleasant human beings I've ever met in my life. This movie was a real low point because Denzel Washington was behind that incredibly cowardly bullshit of this is my character, not me. He was really abusive to me and everybody on that movie. And his official explanation was...

that his character didn't like me. I'd spent my entire salary on my time with my shrink just for getting me through it. He says, this is how he got, how he stopped it with Denzel eventually. He said, I put my hands on his shoulders and I very gently but firmly said,

I don't do abuse. And if you say one more word of abuse to me, I'm on a plane. And you don't have enough money to keep me here. That was the end of it. I've never taken any abuse again. Denzel Washington cured me forever of thinking there was any amount of money or anything that could ever... ever make it okay to be abused. The script supervisor on that movie said it's like watching someone kick a puppy. He was so vile. And after that, I would never endure it again.

That blew up even at the time, even though now, obviously, that would be the biggest clickbait forever and we'd just be talking a lot more than Tarantino's comments. Particularly because it would be who? Who said this? Well, because there's a fascinating bit, again, in that Ed Zwick book, the Hits Flops and Other Illusions, where he directed Courage Under Fire and is very good pals with Denzel Washington and has very nice things to say about him.

Even back then, the Wall Street Journal, everyone by then was just like, sorry, who is this guy? He will say anything. This is amazing. So they went back to follow up with him like two days later. And he said... I regret my choice of words there, and I would like to amend my statement by saying I found Denzel's willingness to be ungenerous, unkind, knowingly hurtful, both mentally and physically to myself and the crew, to be the saddest misuse of stardom I have ever experienced.

or hope to experience. What a legend. That's amazing. We want more of this, not less. Come on. That's amazing. I understand people want to have each other's backs and it's nice to sort of come out and say, oh, you know, I'm going to defend Paul Dane. Nobody defended Sydney Sweeney, I noticed, over her. jeans thing but people do talk like this

all the time in the entertainment industry. Like constantly. And Hollywood has this impression of this being this rarefied, inauthentic, fake place, not allowing anyone to speak their mind. It's kind of pointless. It reminds me of like when footballers used to get fined for...

ridiculous amounts of money for like a minor tweet. I just can't stand it. Let people say something freely. I mean, listen, it makes me look to myself and I really should let everyone know that Alexander Armstrong's a c**t.

Can I say he's not? I hope you beeped that, by the way. I hope you beeped that too. We don't say that word on a podcast. He's a genuinely lovely man. I wonder why it is, what it is in the DNA of Hollywood and of all entertainment television that makes... that happen i guess that everyone works with each other a lot i guess that people are moving between jobs almost endlessly

So you're kind of constantly working with people who've worked with people and you might be working with them next year. I don't know, maybe it's that. Maybe if you are on completely different sides and completely different companies and you're a lifer somewhere, you're able to be a little bit more dismissive of somebody. And this, you are always going to bump into someone. It's quite a small world, the world of entertainment. So it takes a hell of a personality type to really...

leave one out there. But I do think that it is part of the reason why people just think it completely lacks relevance because the rest of culture is not like this anymore. The rest of culture is people really quite often saying what they think and being forced into candid confessions. and all sorts of things like that. And if you don't allow that to exist and it's kind of policed to such a ridiculous degree, then please don't be surprised when...

people don't necessarily want to watch the films and they think the whole thing's fake and ridiculous. I mean, there's not a single person who ever sits in a makeup room and the first question is not, who's the worst person you've worked with? I mean, it always is. Yeah. It always is. And sometimes in those things, they've got four hours to be made up as... the thing and you can really imagine they could get quite a lot of good stories from that.

one of those sessions. We can beep out the answer to this, but I was talking to one of the lovely makeup artists and saying that he's the worst person you ever worked with. He said, I was working somewhere and someone came in onto a show and like a huge entourage.

I was doing his makeup and, you know, as always, you say, oh, you've got everything all right. And, you know, the first thing you always say, is there anything you're allergic to? So he said, is there anything allergic to? And he just absolutely fixed a stare in the mirror and just went, yeah, you. And that was ****. Can you believe that? No way. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Wow. That'll be someone to be sued by. Shall we? Yeah, right.

We're back on Thursday with That's Simon Cowell. And on Friday, we are going to be discussing the matter of whether or not David Hasselhoff ended the Cold War. One of your specialty subjects. I would say. One of my real speciality niches. Any recommendations this week, Marina? Well, like many viewers, I finished Celebrity Race Across the World and my chosen... couple won um although they were all great but i absolutely loved harley moon it's always the person who isn't

the most famous, of course, as we know in this format, who you love. Thought she was absolutely lovely. And there was quite a few episodes early on when he was like, yeah, no, I think she's starting to understand my brain more and stuff like that. I was like... What about her brain? Sort of thought this format. I love, I mean...

The places they went this time, there were places I'd never seen, heard of, these extraordinary places. It really made me want to go. And as always, you know, you love the person who is not the famous person in the couple.

And again, it's funny that thing of, you know, when something's been out a few weeks, you go, oh, I mustn't recommend that. But these days, of course you have to recommend it because everyone's got so much to watch. And it's easy to forget that Celebrity Race Across the World came out and that you love the last series. And this one is absolutely...

up to the same standard it's just great it's just a really lovely bit of tv i would say it's an amazing bit of tv to watch over christmas with the family because kids are watching i mean everyone of every age can watch it It looks amazing. You go to these beautiful places and it's always incredibly moving. And with that, we will see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday. I'm for Simon Cowell.

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I mean, unless you want us to, of course. We're here to tell you about our brand new show. The rest is science. Every episode is going to start with something that feels initially familiar. And then we're going to unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all. Yeah, banana flavour doesn't taste like bananas. Yeah, what is that about? So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a banana-pocalypse.

And now you will only find it in botanical collections in the gardens of billionaires. Wow. Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana. So if you like scratching the surface, thinking a little bit deeper or weirder, yes, definitely that too, you can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.