We are delighted to announce that our good friends at Sky are once again proud partners of The Rest is Entertainment. We are extremely delighted, Marina. Sky has a huge 2025 planned and they're excited to share their unrivaled range of entertainment, which is never... been easier to discover. And there is no better way to enjoy their selection of new shows and films than by using Sky TV.
Sky OS powers the Sky TV experience and it lets you control your Sky TV with your voice so you can find your favourite shows and movies from Sky and the other apps without lifting a finger. My favourite way. Oh, I love not lifting a finger. I love not lifting a finger.
Hello Sky followed by what you want to watch who you want to see and it will be on your screen before you know it. Without having to lift a finger you can get all your favourite entertainment quickly with both Sky shows and other apps in one place. Visit sky.com to find out more.
This episode is brought to you by the new Samsung Galaxy Tab S10 Ultra. Now, I've been using Note Assist, powered by Galaxy AI. And actually, if you're really pressed for time, you can summarise articles and turn them into easy-to-read bullet points. Oh, my God, I'd love to do that with your columns.
It also comes with the S pen, so I can write lists of things that I want to watch next, and it converts my handwriting to text. Very, very cool. Super useful for me as well. And if you're all about streaming, then you'll love the tablet's massive, vibrant display. Whether you're watching snooker, the darts... it's almost like
They know me. Or your favorite TV show. It will all look incredible. Plus, you can take it anywhere in the house or on the go. And if you're into like journaling or you need to get your thoughts down really quickly, Galaxy AI Transcribe Assist converts audio to text. So there's no need to type. That is so useful, by the way.
Whether you're working, relaxing or just staying on top of things, the Samsung Galaxy Tab S10 Ultra is the perfect all-in-one device. Find out more at samsung.com. Requires network connection and Samsung account login for certain AI features.
This episode is brought to you by Oracle. With billions being invested in AI every year, the challenge facing industry is finding the processing power to run it. By upgrading to the next generation of the cloud, you can compete without costs spiraling out of control with Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. If you want OCI to help you do more and spend less, take a free test drive at oracle.com. Rest is entertainment. That's oracle.com slash rest is entertainment.
Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina. How lovely to see you. How lovely to see you too, as always. How are you? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm not bad. Ingrid has been away all week filming a new Netflix thing, so I've literally... just been writing the book and watching the entire series of Drive to Survive. Which I have seen. It is compelling. It's really good. It's really well made.
You know, even though I know the results. I love it. Can I ask you a question about your week? Yes, you can. What is that snack that you have? Because we talked about our extruded mango snack. I think you found an even worse Spotify snack. Well, I've got two snacks here. One, I want to... say it's 9am on a Monday morning so that's not very nice is it but one is a roasted fava bean
which is super healthy, surely, because certainly not super tasty. But look, Spotify have provided us both with an entire thing of sour gummies, like a really quite... substantial size jar, which is, again, great with a coffee at 9am. I never go without. That's a gesture from Spotify to apologise for the father beans.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we've got a sort of, there's no deficit. Everything's just sort of cancelled out, really, with these snacks. Yeah, we start even. What are we talking about this week? Well, first of all, I think you might have exciting news about the title later on. a new Thursday Murder Card book. Yes, after the break I will reveal that title.
God, the people will be fast-forwarding. They won't believe it. Yeah, it's literally just finished, and we have a title, so I'll be revealing that. But more importantly, we're talking about Snow White, the live-action Snow White movie, which started in a sort of... blaze of this is going to make a billion dollars and over the years of it being in production.
Every single wheel has fallen off. It comes out this week and we'll talk about quite why those wheels have fallen off. Very good. We're also going to talk about the Facebook book, Careless People, which is a sort of whistleblowing expose of life at Facebook, now Meta, by...
the former director of global public policy, Sarah Wynne-Williams. Also, Facebook's attempt how to publish a book in total secret, which is what the publishers did, and Facebook's attempt to retrospectively stop that. Yeah, Facebook being the Barbra Streisand.
Yes. And also talking about Millie Bobby Brown. Yes, Millie Bobby Brown, who has been the sort of subject of quite relentless attention on her appearance, saying she looks old, whatever, and who therefore has recorded a video in which she called out lots of people by name who write...
articles or have said certain things and we're going to talk about that whole thing. I think it's a really, I actually think that's a very interesting subject. In a packed show today. In a packed show. Can we begin? by sorting out what is real and what is not about Disney's Supposed woke disaster movie. Snow White. Some facts. I think it was greenlit in 2021. It has cost at least £270 million without marketing, so that's going to take it to sort of £455 million. Half a billion.
which is what tells you, as you know, listeners in advance, how much something might make and how well something might open, is saying that it might take $53 million domestic on its opening weekend, which is next weekend. That is definitely not good enough when they've spent all this money. And why? Because Disney are so woke.
That's what's happened. Can we do the timeline of what's happened? Because I think we actually need to go back to... Yes, because I know it was greenlit in 21, but really it's been on the card since about 2016. That's when it was first mooted, which is... Disney had hits with these live-action things they'd done, Maleficent, Cinderella, things like that. So it was...
An absolute no-brainer at that point. Of course, we're going to do a live-action Snow White. Their most iconic one in some ways. Or the one that started it all. And they have, as we say, we've gone back through their back catalogue and are sort of revitalising them by, or not. by making these live action versions. It's about as easy as a green light.
as you're going to get, remaking Snow White after a series of hit live action things. And yet 10 years later, here we stand. So 2016 is when it was first mooted. I think 2019 is when it went into production and when they started getting... It was announced in... In 2021, actually. So I think it was announced that Rachel Zegler would be playing Snow White.
And people, there was some sort of, you know, people are always looking to have a backlash against Disney for anything, really, because it's not like other studios for all sorts of different reasons. And also MAGA loves picking a fight with Disney. MAGA versus Disney is the sort of... It definitely was back then, particularly.
You know, Disney's got that particular sort of hold on the American imagination and it's a little bit like Bond or whatever for us. It feels like it's somehow intrinsically part of our national story. Anyway, they didn't like that she was Latina, Rachel Zegler, which is, I have to say, in the pictures from the film...
which I haven't yet seen because it hasn't come out. She looks so like the sort of cartoon version. She literally looks exactly like Snow White. And she has an amazing voice. She was terrific in West Side Story, which I wasn't quite sure why that remake ever happened. but she was terrific. So again, Disney art.
OK, we've got this IP. It belongs entirely to us. We have this story. We know the American people love it already. Suddenly, this actor falls into their lap. She's in West Side Story. She's incredible. She looks like Snow White. They're thinking... Oh, my God. This is amazing. This is just getting better and better. They booked Pacek and Paul, who did Dear Evan Hansen, La La Land, booked them to sort of update some of the songs as well. They're thinking, I mean, nothing.
absolutely nothing can go wrong with this. Right. Well, Peter Dinklage goes on a podcast out of left field and says, not out of left field's opinion necessarily, but you're not necessarily expecting this. He's on some podcast about something else. And he said, you know, I...
I keep reading that they're going to update this story, but the whole thing is still completely backward because you've just got these dwarves living in a cave. Then they can't work out whether they're going to cast people with dwarfism and in the end they're going to get around this whole thing by saying they're going to be CGI.
Magical creatures. They're magical creatures. They're not dwarfs, they're magical creatures. Yeah, they're magical creatures. But magical creatures who look like people. From the right, they're getting, why have you got Rachel Zegler? She's Latina. And from the other side of things, they've got Peter Dinkfish going, well, I don't think you are progressive because actually this is...
incredibly regressive. But, you know, still, it's Snow White. They're Disney. Everything will work out. She goes on a load of interviews. This is Rachel Zegler. And she says, this story is extremely dated when it comes to the idea of women in roles of power. This is, you know, it's about a guy who literally stalks her. People are making all these jokes about ours being the PC Snow White. And it's like, yeah, it is because it needed that. Wow. Shut your star up. OK, no.
But also, I mean, here's the thing. Firstly... She's right. And that's the point of Disney. That's the point of remaking these things, is they tell stories for their times. And the fun of Disney... I'm going to come back to that point in a minute, because I really... When we finish the timeline... Yeah. The fun of Disney, though, is they update things. And also, if you see... I like the thing where she talks about... Prince Charming stalking Snow White. Listen.
It sounds bad written down. But she's laughing. Someone's interviewing her. She's asked a question about it. She's having a laugh about it. Media training needs to get all of that out of you. Don't make any jokes. Don't make any news. But that's the thing. She's making a joke. She's very young. learned a long time ago one must never ever make a joke about anything in this world so
A few cracks are starting to appear. Peter Dinklage, Rachel Zegler's starting to say a few things on social media about the storyline. And still the rumbling, which is the most pathetic thing of all of this, is saying, how can you have a Latina playing? Snow White. Yeah, so it was just this sort of background story. She does also, then after October the 7th, she makes various comments about...
Free Palestine, things like this. She makes political statements effectively on her Instagram or whatever it is. The Wicked Queen is being played by Gal Gadot, who has famously served in the IDF and who quite recently has said...
has been very vocal about people not condemning Hamas. There's that sense that there's a conflict among the stars of the film. Whether or not that exists, we don't know. Well, that's the biggest issue of all sorts of actors, you know, hashtag Free Palestine and all those sorts of things. It was taken as every single thing that Rachel Zegler said.
was taken as a slight against Gal Gadot. And every single thing Gal Gadot said was taken as a slight against Rachel Zegler. And these are your two stars, the two stars of this movie, which three or four years ago was the biggest slam dunk in the history of Hollywood. And now it's been... to less and less so. And then Donald Trump wins the presidency again. Sorry if you're catching up on last year. Sorry for the spoiler.
I've had a feeling he might, but I'll still watch it. Anyway, still watch it. Yeah, it's good when it happens. The next season's going to be amazing. Anyway, she then says, may Trump supporters never know peace along those lines. As a result, this thing is now sort of... with all of this controversy and...
I don't want to say that Disney is walking away from the movie, but I do have a very big sense, and so does everyone, that they are just trying to get through it. So it's got this really scale-back premiere. Now, you know when you see premieres, and they've got especially a big Disney premiere, the red carpet takes...
you know, 90 minutes because there are journalists from every single country asking, you know, funny little questions on the red carpet, silly or whatever. They can't risk this with this one. So they've got to have a sort of... closed premiere effectively with kind of Disney's tame journalists asking the questions. They've only started pre-selling tickets, which 11 days before release. And that's so that people won't be able to say, well, hang on.
They're selling really badly. Normally you'd do it a month more out for a big event. They're not showing it to journalists. Cancelled the London premiere. There was going to be a London premiere. The European premiere was in Segovia in Spain and was to 100 people. In a sort of closed castle. A hundred influences. One assumes friendly influences. I mean, genuinely, you can say what you like about exploiting IP, but for whole generations of people, it's fun to have a live action.
snow white you know it's a thing that people would have welcomed into the culture and just merely a few years later this becomes one of disney's great embarrassments and as you say they are they are literally sort of trying to slide it off slide it out of our culture and they're trying to sort of get past it just to get past it you know the money has been spent as you say the budget's very big and
Marketing money is huge on top of that. The marketing money is not a huge amount anymore because they're not spending a huge amount on marketing. Don't need to. We're all hearing about it. But a lot of it's already been bought in, a lot of the ads and stuff. I mean, they're not getting away with a whole lot less. What I would say is, you know.
know is it is it even a crisis because sometimes you just read about these things and it's just and part of it is this is just a good thing that you can keep writing stories about and there is definitely an element of that and it becomes a sort of slightly self-fulfilling thing and they have really really gone for her it would probably be helpful if this was really
released under the Biden administration. Lots of things that have sort of come to, after five years of creative fruition, have come to market now. It's one of those things that you slightly feel like... This is the first thing to go over the top.
since the Trump administration came in. What about Meghan Show? This is the first... What about Meghan Show? The first movie to go over the top. I think the Meghan thing is... I'm not sure anyone is too worried about that. I'm not sure that would have succeeded under Biden or Trump. Maybe under JFK. I don't know. It might have done. So it's the first one that goes over the top. And so every single, you know, all the tanks are...
aimed at it culturally, that's for sure. The New York Post, which is one of Murdoch's many mouthpieces, you know, keep repeating this thing of go woke, go broke. And just to be clear, there's nothing woke about this film other than there's a Latina actress who looks exactly like Snow White. So that feels like...
pure racism and that's you know that's that's that's all they've got it's not really woke apart from that it's a confected nothing really because it will still be the Snow White story I mean honestly you can't they don't let you change anything but as my grandfather used to say when he was in the police if you're called to a fight in a pub
make sure you're second through the door and snow white unfortunately is the first through the door i think that a few interesting things we'll get on to how one deals with talent in this age and how one deals with talent on social media one interesting thing i think is the culture wars which have been fought long and hard and boy we've we've all been in the trenches for a long time the culture wars
are now about to take on a completely different hue, I think. So this is the first time when there's been a huge backlash against a movie when the people on that side of the culture wars, on the Trump side of the culture wars, are in charge. And so this thing that's been a fun hobby for the online right for many, many years, and they have loved doing this trolling they've done, you know, has been a joy to them. When you're in charge, it becomes something different.
and it becomes a form of bullying, and it becomes something where you think, I understand when you are fighting against something, you do whatever you can, but you're in charge now, and therefore they are in danger of... showing their true colours and they're in danger of showing to people actually what is being thrown out.
under this administration and the things we are going to lose under this administration. I think, interestingly, it's a turning point where when people who are pro-DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, which a lot of the industry are, I think this is the point at which they can... dig in and build their trench and fight back from there. It feels like this is now just bullying. It's gone from trolling to actual bullying. I've got a slightly different take on it. I do think it's...
First of all, it's talent mismanagement. Having spoken of Megan, working for Disney is literally like marrying into the royal family, OK? You have to behave in a certain way. And everybody who does it knows it. And someone should have said to her, don't do any of it. these things okay because you can't and you may rail against that you may think that's totally unfair but that's the sort of payment for being in one of these types of movies that's what yeah and if you if you do
do that people will come down on you very hard so it's a mismanagement of her she's very young there's no reason she's expected to know but someone has failed to manage it yes if I was her I'd be doing what she does because she's a human being come on this is two years after you first blew up after the
political comments here. You should have learnt your lesson by that point. Just don't do it, OK? Because it's just going to cause problems. I really believe these films just cannot bear the weight of this absolute nonsense way that their stars talk about them. I'm sorry. I find it absolutely ridiculous. I remember...
I actually had to go back and look this up because I just remember laughing about it at the time. When they did the Beauty and the Beast remake with Emma Watson and Dan Stevens, his interviews were so absurd about it. I remember at the time he said that he'd been really captivated by some speech he did. at the UN. And then I'm going to give you a quote from Dan Stevens.
Bear in mind, this is publicising Beauty and the Beast. You need to engage masculine energy and grapple with what that balance is, what that entails. What are the elements of the patriarchy that need walking down and which are just elements of masculinity that need to be balanced with femininity? All of these ideas are very...
much at play in Beauty and the Beast and they're also very much at play in Emma Watson's mind. Is this still the movie about the girl who has a sort of stock syndrome syndrome with a big furry thing? Because this is so ridiculous, okay? And Rachel Zegler herself was sort of unfortunately still...
leaning into that type of complexity. She was. I think, yeah, she talked about actually this is a thing about women becoming the leaders that they were born to be. She's dreaming about being the leader. It's like, do me a favour. Okay, she talks to some animals. There's a homicidal stepmother.
and a magic mirror. It's so ridiculous when you hear adults, grown-ups, trying to sort of wrangle the sexual politics of the enchanted wood. This is a nonsense. These films cannot support... It's the way that people sort of talked about Marvel movies and they just actually... Let's just get over us.
It's Snow White. And have some entertainment. Yes, please. I really find it complete nonsense. Sorry, can I just stick on this? I think it feels to me like you are becoming the leader you were born to be. Sorry. I'm going to shut up after this. No, please don't. I remember seeing a picture of Dan Stevens. He's brilliant, by the way, I always think. Listen, I'm not condoning... There was an earnestness there that I almost can't forgive. Neither of us can ever forgive an earnestness.
And there's a picture of him in the course of promoting this movie. And I thought, aha, guess where he was standing? He was standing in Anaheim in one of the parks outside the new Beauty and the Beast ride. And I thought, yeah, that's actually why you're there, Dan, Steve, is not to sort of wrangle some... sexual politics is to get people on that coaster okay let's talk about the mouse let's talk about the parks because remember the parks make double
all of Disney's entertainment business. And remember, everything they've got is streaming. They've got Marvel. They've got Pixar. They've got Star Wars. They've got all the heritage stuff like this. And they've got Disney+. The parks make double. Sending hot dogs to people who are about to go on a roller coaster.
One time we must do something on the Disney succession because it's sort of hotting up and it's slightly hilarious if you enjoy funny executive battles. Anyway, I'm going to talk to you now about churros, OK? Churros, the snack. Churros, the snack, right? Okay. And churros have become the sort of... People bang on about churros at Disney World, at the parks, around the world. Did you know Doritos were invented at Disney World? Were they? Yeah, did you know that? No, I did not. That's brilliant.
Well, they took the offcuts of things and made Doritos. Anyway, listen. I shudder to think what those offcuts are. Sorry, if you're listening, Big Dorito, don't sue me. I love them, by the way. I love them. But yeah, anyway, I'm just pulling out of this one right now. Let's get into churros, okay? about Disney food all the time. They're all obsessed with it. It's a big, big part of being a parks visitor.
October, they hiked the price of churros 20 cents. That's a huge thing, okay? And I'll tell you why, because they sell millions and millions and millions of churros a year, right? Now, churros cost the mouse very little. Churros, by the way, they're sort of like a doughy, almost like a donut.
It's a stick almost. You know, it's a Mexican thing and it's deep fried. Delicious as well. Okay, someone wants to work this out. Churros cost the mouse very little, okay? The cost price of churros at that scale is nothing, right? Shows and movies are really expensive, but they make... About 35 million profit from Churras a year.
but on a 90% profit margin, okay? Now, they finally, last year in 2024, made a profit from streaming. Do you know how much they made? 47 million, right? They spent more than 23 billion. That's a 0.2% profit margin. OK, so Churros means a lot more to the mouse than Beauty and the Beast or any of that stuff. OK, having said that, as you can see from Dan Stevens standing dutifully outside the ride.
You need Beauty and the Beast to get people to buy the Choros. And it's not just that, you know, the Choros, they don't make a huge amount of money. But the point is, these parks, these things, they need all this stuff. But it's really interesting how much they spend on streaming when you think about the sports rights.
the licensing, all the stuff to make Disney+. And, I don't know, 10% of Disney+, or maybe more, they say, is one show is Bluey, which we love, of course, which we all love. In lots of ways, they're not like any other studio. They've got all these parks. It's a whole different thing. But let's be honest. You need Snow White. You need all this stuff. You get them in the parks. You see the princesses walking around. It's ridiculous that this has become about...
the politics of anything. You know, even when Endermar was on, it's like the highest of its highs and the money we were making was crazy. We would look at the money we were spending on cars, taxis for all sorts of people and go, why don't we just run a taxi company because it's about twice as profitable. That's all this stuff that we're doing. You know, we sold all these shows around the world and literally, you know, we might as well just have our own cab company. Is it all just busy work?
I don't want to be early in the morning. Is all of it just creating jobs and just giving humans something to do? Of course, almost the entirety of the creative industry is. There's about four hits that fund everything else. funds the rest and that but that's why someone like dan stevens has to say that because otherwise what's the alternative he goes look they've just given me three million dollars
To be in this sort of, I mean, it's Beauty and the Beast. We all know what that is. I've got something else I'm doing afterwards, like an indie film that's a bit more fun. But I'm literally, I'm going out for dinner this evening. So where do I have to be? Stand in front of the rollercoaster, of course. And what should I say? Something, oh God, I can't just say I'm doing it for the money.
I find it empowering. I find it an interesting version of masculinity. Of course, you're going to say that. But it does lead to the rabid fandom, which has seen Snow White hit the buffers, doesn't it? Yes. Listen, the whole industry is... illusion we shouldn't even do this podcast i was just about to say but it's all yeah it's all built on sugar and fat the whole thing isn't it the rest is sugar and fat in various combinations the rest is
That's a really, really good idea. The rest is roasted fava beans. Well, I mean, I don't know what the profit margin on that is, but it's too high. So it's out this week.
I hope it does okay. You know, the trouble is... I saw that the reviews, I haven't seen it because it hasn't come out, but the reviews have been really good. She has got an amazing voice and I'm sure it's absolutely charming. I find it one of the most boring of the properties. You can tell it's one of the early ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You'd probably need to update it a tiny bit, you know? Yeah, but it's still Snow White. Yeah, who cares? Yes, I mean, you know. Well, everyone cares, but who cares? I tell you what, you do sit on the sofa when you're watching any of these things for the 15th, 37th, 97th time with your toddler. You do sit there watching Frozen and thinking, oh, my God, it's so obvious. Elsa's gay. She's coming out. That's what this whole thing is.
all these thoughts in your head but I don't think you perhaps share them with the wider Disney community because really you're just making a fun film about princesses well that's the point of it is when you can read those films in any way you wish and that's the beauty of them you can you can take it from a regressive stance you can take it from a progressive stance as soon as you're told what they are
It becomes boring. It's like Eurovision a little bit. You always knew what Eurovision was and what it represented. But every year now you are told what it is and what it represents. And you think, oh, I thought it was more fun when we all just kind of knew. And it was fun for everybody. So, yeah, it is that thing of constantly being told, well, I still love Eurovision, by the way. By the way, Dan Stevens is amazing in the Eurovision movie.
That he's really, really good in. You know, that where there was no nonsense. That where he just turned up, did a brilliant job and everybody loved it. But yeah, constantly being told... why movies are important we're not going to be i think we won't see marketing like that i think that's one of the casualties of the sort of sea change in
cultural philosophy, which is that you won't see things marketed for, you know, here's why this is important and you sort of should see it. Now, is the next thing that's going to happen, production companies getting much tougher on contracts for... talent and getting much tougher on their social media output. Essentially, do the studios have to start treating young talent in the same way that the BBC treats Gary Lineker?
Yes, they are. And I'm actually surprised because her representation is no good because they should have told her this and she should have actually learnt from the first time round and not done it again after Trump won. So fine. But yes, they are going to have to do that. They're going to have to go through everybody's tweets so the same thing doesn't happen with Emilia Perez. they're going to have to go through all of this stuff and if they don't they do risk very very expensive mistakes
And that's just, unfortunately, the entertainment slash political climate we live in. But for them, the financial climate they have always lived in. Mmm, churros. Churros. Or just make a load of churros. Yeah. Start a cab company. Shall we go to some adverts talking of the unlikely ways in which things are funded? And afterwards, I'm going to announce the title of the new Thursday Murder Club novel.
Yes, please. Hurry back, everyone. This episode is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch unmissable shows such as the new season of Gangs of London, the BAFTA-winning Emmy-nominated series starring Joe Cole. Michelle Fairley and Chopin Dirisu. Now, Richard, in season three, chaos erupts after a spiked drugs shipment floods the streets, killing hundreds of civilians. But...
Here is the twist. I mean, it sounds like a big enough twist already, but you know I love a twist. I know you love a twist. Despite shipment, it wasn't an accident. It was a planned and calculated attack. Oh, my God. Knowing what I do about TV crime and writing all that sort of stuff, I suspect this is just the beginning. Correctamundo.
I love your catchphrase. So bring me and maybe anyone listening up to speed who hasn't seen the first two seasons of Gangs of London. People absolutely love this show. In the first two seasons, we saw the battle for power between Sean and Elliot. Let's not forget he's an undercover cop. Oh, man.
We came to a climactic head with Sean's now in prison at the start of season three. Now, the aftermath of all of that has sparked a brutal power struggle right across the capital's underworld. We're talking tested loyalties, shifting alliances, unexpected betrayals. Who can...
be trusted. Elliot, who we've seen fight very hard to obtain power, struggles to hold on to it, while behind bars, Sean is still able to wield influence and affect events outside the prison walls, meaning the various gangs are looking over their shoulders, not knowing who to trust.
In my books, I have a drug dealer called Connie Johnson who's always in prison, but she's always got like a Nespresso machine and her Wi-Fi is absolutely sensational. I cannot wait to see what unfolds. Genuinely, so many people have told me about this show. Watch season three of the BAFTA-winning Sky original Gangs of London on Sky right now.
This episode is brought to you by Lightroom, London's home for spectacular artist-led immersive shows. Now, if you're looking for something extraordinary to do in London, we've got just the place for you. I have actually been to Lightroom. It's a unique exhibition space. It's about 10 minutes walk from King... crossed perfect.
day out for a family it's crazy yeah it is it's 360 degree immersive experiences collaborations with world-class artists across art film music fashion science and now i have seen the moonwalkers which is a journey with tom hanks it is
Amazing. That's all about the moon landing. The blast off is incredible. The astronauts floating around. You think actually it's really limited on a TV picture. Loads of other stuff happening at the Lightroom at the moment. You can explore fashion history with a Cate Blanchett narrated exhibition called Vogue, Inventing the Runway.
There is also David Hockney, Bigger and Closer, which offers an incredible new perspective on one of Britain's greatest living artists. And if you're more into natural history, step into the world of dinosaurs by seeing Prehistoric Planet. That's in partnership with Apple TV+. There is something for everyone. Tickets for the Moonwalkers, a journey with Tom Hanks, which returns for the Easter holidays.
I'm Sarah Churchwell, author, journalist, and academic. And I'm David Aldashogga, historian and broadcaster. And together, we're the hosts of Goalhanger's latest podcast, Journey Through Time. We're going to be looking at hidden social histories behind famous...
chapters from the past. Like what was it like to actually live during prohibition or to have been there on the ground for the great fire of London? We'll be uncovering it all. And we'll have characters and stories that have been forgotten. but shouldn't have been. This week, we've got one of my favorites, Victoria Woodhull, the first woman to run for U.S. president all the way back in 1872, 50 years before American women could even vote.
She was also the first woman to address Congress and to open a brokerage on Wall Street where she made a fortune. It's an incredible story, but it is also full of contradictions. She was a trailblazing woman in politics. But later in life, she also turned to the pseudoscience of eugenics. So join us on Journey Through Time and hear a clip from the Victoria Woodhull story at the end of this episode.
Welcome back, everybody. Now, Richard, please don't keep me in suspense any longer. I would love to know the title. Of the new book. Well, I finished writing it yesterday. I wrote the end yesterday. Oh my God, so satisfying. I know, so satisfying. There'll be, at some point, we'll talk about what happens when you hand it in. When you write the end. Exactly, because it really, I know there's a, you know, there's a number of things that happen after.
that point um yes so the title the title of the next thursday murder club book is the impossible fortune oh i love it Because in there, there is an impossible fortune in there, but also it's about luck and chance and what life throws at you. So the impossible fortune, the inspiration all the way through, I wanted to call it. fortune's always hiding which is from i'm forever blowing bubbles the west ham song you know fortune's always hiding i've looked everywhere
I'm forever blowing bubbles, pretty bubbles in the air. Because Ron is a West Ham fan. Because Ron in the book is a West Ham fan, absolutely. And so I said to the publishers and agents and everyone, I said, oh, this is the name I want. And, you know, because of the song.
Every single one of them said, what song? So what do you mean, what song? It's I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles. Fortune's Always Hiding. And nobody knew those lyrics. Nobody had ever heard of it. It's funny because I thought there'd be such a big crossover between West Ham fans and people who work in public.
I mean, yeah, there's a Venn diagram, isn't there? I think it might just be me. I'm not a West Ham fan, but I know the lyrics to that song. So yeah, I wanted to call it that and no one understood it. And then I was thinking, oh, an impossible heist. And I'd put the two together for impossible. fortune which which does everything it needs to do for me with a title you want it you want it to
sum up more than one thing in the book. Essentially, you want it to be sort of what the book is about. You want it to work on a number of levels. You want it to work on a number of levels. That's the thing. And so as soon as I said, how about Impossible Fortune? You could see the relief. He's not quoting this.
football song anymore. They said they loved The Impossible Fortune. So out in September, The Impossible Fortune, the fifth book in the Thursday murder club series. I'm going to see it before September. Well, we shall see. We shall see if, I mean, I write it so.
I know this feels like a long way away from September, but this is about as close to the... No, I will be seeing it before September. Sorry, it wasn't really an inquiry. I mean, I'm going to be seeing it before September. I'm going to insist I get an early copy. I mean, if there are early copies, that's what I'm saying.
What if there aren't? I can read it to you from memory. Yeah, I'd like that. Could you come round and stand on my doorstep and read it to me from memory? Yeah, that's a great idea. That would be a lovely idea. Now, talking of impossible fortunes and talking of books. Yes. Sarah Wynne-Williams. Sarah Wynne-Williams is the former director of global public policy at Facebook, which is now owned by the sort of parent company Meta.
And she's written this book called Careless People, which is a memoir of her time, which you've joined, like many, very, very idealistic as a sort of progressive about where the company could go. Yeah, she was working for the UN or something. She was a New Zealander, a diplomat. And anyway, she joins thinking this company can achieve all sorts of things. And anyway, there's a point where someone says in a couple of years you're going to be as hated as you are.
as the banks far after the financial crisis. Obviously, we all hate Facebook much more than the banks now. The banks are lovely compared to Mark Zuckerberg's company. It's interesting. Okay, this book has been published by Pan Macmillan here and Flatiron Books. in the U.S.
Obviously, Facebook, I have to say at the start, Facebook deny it all. We know they deny it all because they're now desperately trying to block it. She's the highest ranking Facebook whistleblower so far. We've had a few. We had Frances Haggard. We had Christopher Wiley who talked about the Cambridge Analytica stuff. and Frances Haugen talked about the sort of damage done to teenagers. And Facebook were able to say of her, oh, she's never been in a single C-suite.
decision meeting. Whereas Sarah Wynne Williams was in the room where it happened. Yeah, and... They're very worried about their privacy. Yeah, they want some fact-checking. Oh, my God. It's so beyond. That's the amazing thing. They've written a letter saying we demand the right to fact-check. to check this book, having just fired all of their own facts checkers. You think, oh, they could have done it for you. Yeah.
So they had an emergency legal. It came out last week on Tuesday in the States and Thursday in the UK. And they had an emergency legal hearing which found that she can't promote it and cannot do anything that might further encourage... So if we wanted to...
interview her, for example, or even get a quote from her, we would not be able to. Legally, we would not be allowed to. She can't do any of it now. What's interesting is that, of course, they were afraid that this would happen. And it's really interesting because... The UK publisher of this book told me about the existence of a book quite a long time ago and said...
In some months, I will send you something that we'll have to sign an NDA about, blah, blah. And so they have been so successful in keeping it under wraps. By the way, it is really hard to do that because people just sort of find out. And how they did it was everybody was sort of bound by all sorts of agreements. And then they really carefully decided who would be able to see it before. There was a really good interview with her.
with Emily Maitlis on the newsagents last week, but that was pre-recorded, you see. But they managed to keep it secret until it came out. Can you put out a pre-recorded interview even after an injunction? She's already done it at that point. You've got to sue the newsagents.
Under what grounds? Well, the thing is that they could use our libel laws. I was wondering why they hadn't used our libel laws because ours are the worst in the world and it has been published in London. Or the best in the world, depending on if you've just been libeled or not. Depending if you're an oligarch or not. Yes. It's great for oligarchs. If you want to see, if you're not a girl and want to see, come to London. They all do. But they haven't.
She has got a lot of evidence as far as I understand it. By the way, I should say that I have not spoken to her. You've read the book though. I've read the book and I've talked to various people about, well, I'm not going to state who they were, but I can say that. I have not spoken to her in advance of this discussion. But it's very interesting. So Facebook are trying to ban it. They have got a temporary stop on it. I don't know how long that's going to last in America because...
Obviously, First Amendment rights are very important. And, you know, I know that because Mark Zuckerberg recently kept banging on about it. So they do have a sort of whistleblower playbook Facebook, which is that they discredit the person so that they're nowhere near any decisions. And with her, they said, oh, no, we fired her. because she was toxic? Yeah. Okay. I don't think anything...
Imagine how toxic you'd have to be. Yeah, to be more toxic than Facebook. It's not really possible. Imagine making that office a worse place. Yeah, it's not really, you know, I want to say very clearly for the record that they are literally some of the worst people in the world. They are genuinely awful. The top end of Facebook.
Top end of Facebook. I mean, yeah, but, you know, she keeps saying, oh, this is really dreadful. Why are we doing this? But she does work there for quite a long time. Anyhow. First of all, okay, how she's done it is by saying this is a memoir. This is my personal truth. The framing of that is really crucial. There is a sense where, you know, you're entitled to your own story. They say that she's violated her severance. She did...
preemptively fired a whistleblower complaint with the SEC in America, the Securities and Exchange Commission in America. So they've done this. It's so strategic how they've done all of this. And they also say that, you know, Meta went on record saying during the sort of Me Too times that anyone... who'd been sexually harassed in terms of your employment contract about not talking about your bosses.
you shouldn't have to do that in secret. And generally, there is a view now that if that sort of voids certain things. But when we had our discussion, we were talking about NDAs not that long ago on the podcast. We did, during when we were talking about Neil Gaiman, it's quite interesting. Once they've said it, it is out there. And so in a way, the best way to do it is to speak up.
And now they can pursue her and they can do all kinds of things. But it's starting to look really bad, is the Streisand effect that you talked about. Yeah, the more they pursue her, the bigger the story gets, the more books she sells and the more people read the things that she has written. It's interesting, this book, because...
It sort of tells you everything you already thought was true. Because we know quite a lot about these people. And I already think they're the worst people. Well, she says various things. She said, you know, there are no adults in the room. Because there's a bit of you. Because I always think the best of people. That's my greatest flaw.
And my greatest strength. But I always think, oh, yeah, but I'm sure somebody somewhere is, you know, is in control of this. And I'm sure someone is at least thinking about it. And it appears not. It appears that the green-eyed monster of greed trumps absolutely.
And when they know things, they've got this way that they can see when teenage girls have deleted selfies and they sell that moment to advertisers so that advertisers can use that exact moment to sell them sort of tummy flattening things. and beauty products. So it's so gross to say nothing of how hand in glove they have worked with the Chinese regime, which...
I mean, I think that's in some ways the biggest story. They say, oh, we never actually went into China. But they've done all sorts of other things. Well, she says, isn't she, in the book that Mark Zuckerberg offered President Xi the opportunity to name his unborn child.
And I'm not saying President Xi is cool, but he just says no thanks. He said, no, I'm okay, thanks. Stop being so embarrassing. Imagine being Mark Zuckerberg's wife and her just going, what should we call our child? And he goes, what? Do you know what? Not really up to us, is it? Unfortunately, yeah. I mean, they obviously think it's most damaging to them in the US in some ways, but it's damaging everywhere.
As I say, in a way, this book tells you things that you either suspected or already knew. But by going so hard against it... I mean, I really think they've increased sales an awful lot. I think it's going to do very, very well, this book. Is it a good read, by the way? I mean, it's a sort of everything that you... It confirms everything and all of what you... Yeah, yeah. And she does it in a sort of... I don't want to... this to be a review of the book, but you know what I mean.
Yes, and she tells you that it's a story of crushed idealism. In some ways, it takes quite a long time to be crushed. It's probably the only... Well, because there's a lot of money involved. The three things that really interested me, firstly, she said there came a point where it wasn't...
They were in a bubble. The bubble was a private jet. They literally couldn't see outside of this extraordinary, rarefied world that they were living in. And they very quickly got to the very top table in politics. Zuckerberg needed persuading that actually they had helped Trump win the 2016 election. election he said no there's no way that we did and she's saying well look you're
job is to change what toothpaste people buy. You don't think you can do that for politics. And they took him through everything they'd done and he became persuaded that, of course, Facebook had been useful to Trump and, you know, it gave him political ambitions. So I thought that's interesting. Another thing that's interesting...
is that Sarah Wynne Williams says the thing that she watched time and time and time again towards the end there was the Mitchell and Webb sketch of the Nazis going, hold on. are we the bad guys? And it's funny because that's always the meme that's thrown at them. And the fact that she was right in the heart of the beast and that was the thing she was looking at and going, yeah, this is...
This is what's happening. We don't realize what it is that we were doing. And she jumped ship. And the biggest revelation in the thing is that Nick Clegg... Sir Nick Clegg, made $100 million from Facebook. It's interesting, though, as a publishing story, really, just how your relationships are really good if you're a publisher with various buyers. But to be able to say to people, because this is in four supermarkets.
This is in Tesco, Asda, Morrisons and Waitrose. And by the way, I know we've mentioned it before, but very, very, very few books get into the supermarkets. If you get into the supermarkets, you're absolutely in the big league. Supermarkets have so little space for...
books. And so they're incredibly selective about what they take. And non-fiction is not a lot of that. Yeah, so that's a huge deal. That means it's going to be a big book. Yeah, we've got a big book. We can't tell you what it is, but you would probably want to buy quite a lot of copies.
hadn't even read it. It was just the relationship they already have. It's the relationship they have with the publishers. And actually, you know, to some extent, being so secretive, which they had to be, there was literally no way around because they would have injuncted the book. As you can see, it was quite...
clear that they would have injuncted the book. They've already tried to stop it. In some ways, that cloak and dagger, that intense secrecy has probably helped them. People are like, what the hell is this? Yeah, it's interesting. If you are, I mean... amongst my favorite people in the business, but also the clearest eyed people in the business are the supermarket book buyers. You cannot get around them. If something's not going to sell, they'll take risks.
believe in stuff but that you can't just say yeah but think about it They've thought about everything. They've thought about every angle. But yeah, Pam McMillan that I've worked with before, Pam McMillan will say, you have to trust us on this. Because that's an incredibly important relationship for Pam McMillan. You don't want to mess the supermarkets around. So yeah, those have been interesting meetings.
It's completely secret. That's exciting for everybody. You have to trust us. Pam McMillan must be so confident it's a good book to be able to say that to the supermarkets because they know it's their reputation on the line. And if it's a bad book and doesn't sell, next time they go back to Tesco, Tesco kind of go... Remember the thing about Facebook?
Exactly. So I would say it's really worth reading. It's a sort of fascinating expose, often of things that you already suspected were true, but we horrified to learn even truer than perhaps you thought. And a really amazing cloak. dagger operation by pan macmillan and flat iron to actually get it to market because it's so difficult it could so easily be an injuncted and it's absolutely a manifestation of that meme of um mark zuckerberg doesn't want you to read this book yeah and
Because he really doesn't want you to read this book. So maybe it's fun to read it. Yeah. Shall we move on? We've got three leading stories this week, because this is a cracker as well, Millie Bobby Brown. Yes, Millie Bobby Brown, who is 11 in Stranger Things, but she's also a big star on Netflix, which I think is different from being a big movie star. But anyway, that's for another podcast.
She is currently on the sort of promotional tour for The Electric State, which is this very, very expensive movie that the Russo brothers have directed. 320 million. Unbelievable. I've seen it. I'll give you my review later. Oh, OK. Right. Well, that's, I haven't seen it. She's been subject in recent months to sort of really a relentless number of news stories, social media sort of gossip, people saying, you know, she looks old.
She looks older than she is. And some of it's a sort of thinly coded suggestion that she's using fillers or tweakments or whatever people want to call them. What she did in retaliation to this eventually was she's done a video saying. I find this really disgusting, the way people talk about this. It's amazing how many of these people who write these stories are women. She named lots of the, and a lot of it's male online. Yeah. Just stating the facts here, a lot of it's male online.
stated, named them, Matt Lucas had posted a picture of Vicky Pollard and said, which I think she slightly misunderstood the joke there. Yes, he apologised immediately. He apologised immediately and said this is a sort of joke about her and a pink topper with her hair, but never mind. And it's interesting, obviously, in terms of people who think they're her fans, but have talked in a kind of added to this. It is that whole...
You know, no snowflake thinks it's part of the avalanche thing. But she says, why should I be subject to this kind of relentless scrutiny? And in the old days, you couldn't do this. You didn't have the tools. You'd have to wait till...
you know, you were next on a chat show to pull everyone out of the moment and be really kind of censorious and say, I don't like this. But now you can just go on and... But before that, you'd have to wait for your autobiography 40 years later, wouldn't you? Yes. Now it's like 40 minutes. One of the Daily Mail Online journalists who she called out has now resigned from Mail Online and said, I wasn't strong enough to say no. She's posted an apology video herself saying...
I wasn't brave enough to say no. I've now had a favour of what it's like to be scrutinised. You know, my family's had death threats and blah. Yeah, anyhow. There's lots of interesting things about this story. First of all, the reason that... these stories are written is because there is a market for them yeah the market for those type stories by the way is chiefly women it's the female gaze and other women policing other women and how they look is a big market and pretending that this is all
You know, that story even has been commissioned by a man. I don't think, accurate. But there is also a sense, you know, it's interesting hearing, we talked before about Chapel Rowan, what she said about fandoms feeling they sort of own you, these parasocial relationships that have gone too far. And there is something about... being a star a young star a starlet as we used to call them now where it's almost like footballers where people feel like
oh, sorry, we pay your wages. You know, we're entitled to literally, like some people think and have thought for a long time that because they've got a season ticket at wherever, it's actually fine to stand and shout, I hope your kid gets cancer to someone who's just missed a penalty. Yeah.
Which is an unusual way to view life. Whenever you watch any of the traffic cop documentaries, the worst people in the world are always the people who get stopped for drink driving and saying, I pay your wages. To the police. To the police. Okay.
So I think there's that element of it. The type of articles that these were and are, and you see them, I think there's a real ecosystem of those articles. And for me, I find it awful. People saying she's had this or that done. If you look at the journalist from the Mail Online, Lydia Hawkins. who ended up resigning.
Twitter timeline was a series of things saying, I'm urgently looking to speak to a plastic surgeon for a feature. I'm urgently looking to speak to an esthetician. I don't even know what that job is, but I can tell you it's probably not properly regulated. I'll tell you what, they ain't making churros. And there are all these doctors and...
if I can possibly say that, who contribute to these articles, even though they don't treat the celebrity in question, to say, oh, they've had this done or that done. And those people do it purely to get their name out there so that they can get further business. Referrals, yeah. I've mentioned people who are my lawful prey before. They're on the list, okay? No, I don't. Estheticians. Yeah, just people who come true, who say. In our day, we used to have Esther Ransom.
We've got estheticians. What are we raising? What are we raising? Anyway, so they purely put their name out to get business. I do think there is something deeper, though, which is that... She came to prominence in Stranger Things as 11 and she's a real totemic character and all the boys are slightly devoted to her and her weird and outsider-ish way. And actually, there is a cultural thing where...
Not so much women, but actually men can't really deal with those type of people, those type of people becoming young women. And I was thinking of... So wherever she turns... female or male. Yeah, well, you know, there's a thing, isn't there? Telling girls that they were so sweet when they were children and they didn't wear makeup or sort of fetishizing innocence or saying, you know, I want you to stay my little girl forever. And, you know, fathers...
saying, well, I'm going to have a shotgun the first time she brings somebody. You know, why? That sort of social thing, which lots of people and men say. Imagine, by the way, a father with a 13-year-old son saying the first time...
You bring a girl home, I'm bringing out my shotgun. Yeah, I'm going to just be cleaning it when she comes through the front door. That would be weird. It would be weird. But actually, and that's sort of, you know, a sort of ordinary real world sort of thing, those kind of comments. But there is a thing of male... creatives I think who can't really deal with people that either they've had a big hand in their career or else they're even their creations.
I often think of Susan and C.S. Lewis in The Last Battle, you know, from The Chronicles of Narnia. Do you know, I am less familiar with The Chronicles of Narnia than I should be. Okay, well, you know Susan's one of the four children. No, I thought you were going to say Emma Watson and I was going to be able to...
Follow it. And now I'm, like you said, Susan, and I'm all at sea. Okay. Well, she's one of the four children. But in the last battle, she doesn't sort of get into Aslan heaven, as it were. And Peter, her brother, says, my sister Susan. answered Peter shortly and gravely, is no longer a friend of Narnia. Now, a little girl called Marcia wrote in 1955 to C.S. Lewis and was asking about this. And he said, I'm afraid Susan doesn't get...
Back into Nainia. Haven't you noticed in the two that you have read that she's rather too fond of being grown up? Prick. Sorry, C.S. Lewis. I'm so embarrassed for you. I'm really embarrassed for you. Oh, my God. But he's not the only one. Okay, and by the way, that's not the first time that if he's looking down from the great wardrobe in the sky. Oh, C.S. Lewis is dead. Yeah. I'm sorry. God, you really are catching on, aren't you? Wow.
Spoilers much? I'll tell you who else didn't like it. Dickens? John Hughes found Molly Ringwald, who was the sort of real muse. He wrote about teenagers, really, and he wrote movies about teens. He wrote all the great coming of age.
80s movies or directed them. Can I just say he would be an amazing, he'd have to be two bonus episodes. He's incredible. I think he's, do you know he became a really hardcore Republican in the end? John Hughes? Yeah. Did he? It's such an interesting story. I really think we should do that for a bonus episode. Sorry. Anyway, going back to Molly Ringwald, she was in...
16 Candles, Pretty in Pink, Breakfast Club. And eventually, you know, she sort of wanted to spread her wings and she grew up, you know, and she wanted to do different types of movies and whatever. And she... has said that he felt it as a real sort of betrayal. That's what I'm saying. There is a sort of thing about, you know, little shaven-headed Eleven who turned up in the first bit of Stranger Things.
In some ways, people want to always keep Millie Bobby Brown like that. You're often in life, you remain the same age that you were when you became famous in people's consciousness. You know, look at even...
Kieran Culkin and Macaulay Culkin there's something about them that they are loved because they are tiny children still Daniel Radcliffe he can go to New York and be in any play he wants and people always say oh that's nice isn't he's 14 look and he's uh he's doing that that's nice well i don't think we'd wish wish that sort of fame on any child
This is why I think it's probably best not to put your children on the stage. There is something very adult and exploitative about all of that and all sorts of different things, maybe allowing them to be part of it, maybe whatever, but to not allow them then to...
transition out of it and to express a sort of moral disappointment in them for simply aging. And I really think that she hit on that, Millie Bobby Brown, whether she didn't use those specific words. Well, she said the reason you think I look old is because, you know, you first...
saw me when I was you know a child I'm not a child anymore and that's very much on you not on me I'll dress how I want to dress I'll wear whatever makeup I want to make you know the fact that you are still seeing me through a different lens Literally nothing to do with me. I'm always going to look older than I am in your head in the same way that you see Macaulay Culkin walking down the street. You go, oh, he's aged. He shouldn't have kids. He's a child.
I agree. And what's interesting is a lot of people's reaction to this was she shouldn't have done this. You've just got to suck it up. You know, we pay your wages. You earn a lot of money. I actually think it is going to be quite a lot harder for the next.
series of articles like this to be written. They'll store it up and think, how dare you? How dare you? You mentioned our journalists. And they'll try and punish her in other ways, of course. But I do actually think that it's a lot harder to do that once someone has said it out loud. Like, stop doing this to me.
You know, you're being ridiculous. And I think it will be harder to write this kind of articles. I actually think it will be effective in some ways. And she's someone who is, in lots of ways, quite an old soul because she's got like lots of... people who've achieved success of her generation she already has you know a beauty line a fashion line she's a sort of mini mogul maybe just a mogul and i think that people like that are quite interested in
being powerful and thinking, OK, how do I can deal with this? I'm not just going to accept this. And I think it's exactly that thing of if you are writing about that stuff, you're very justified to say, but we pay her wages. But she is also saying.
Yes, sorry, but I'm also paying your wages. You know, the fact that you've written 10 articles about me and people are clicking on it and that's how you're remunerated. I am paying your wages as well. So you mention me all you like. I will mention you. all I like as well, and let's see how we like it. You know, because that's the ecosystem. We're making money out of each other. And so if I'm fair game, you're fair game as well. So let's bring it on.
I agree. It would be quite nice when those articles didn't make money from the female gaze. But the fact is, it is a fact of the market that they do. Richard, what's the electric state like? Well, $320 million. I've heard terrible things. It costs. It's got 14% on Rotten Tomatoes.
As much as that. At the moment. It will shock you to learn, Marina, I rather liked it. It's just, you know what? It's Millie Bobby Brown. It's Chris Pratt. Woody Harrelson voices a robotic Mr. Peanut. It's, I mean, it's sort of... Bergian it's I mean it's a bit too long but it is because it's you know it's you know
Chris Pratt's playing a sort of Harrison Ford type character. Oh, my God. What does that say about our age? Well, I just... Nothing good. Listen, I was looking at my phone throughout. I'll admit that. You second screened it. That's what they want. They want to spend $300 million on things. is it people second screen? Yeah, I found it diverting enough. The Russo brothers, you know, they know their way around a joke and that to me...
Honestly, if you write something and the jokes are okay, then I will sit and watch it. If it's got actual jokes written by actual funny people, I will watch it. You know, and it does have that. So I would say, listen, I wouldn't give it 14%.
Is what I would say. I think it looks interesting. Stanley Tucci is in it. He's great. You know, it's got good people in it. Yeah, I'd rather enjoyed it. She's great. Minnie Bobby Brown. Can I do some recommendations? Of course you can. Like everybody who has seen it, seemingly.
adolescence on Netflix is absolutely incredible I haven't seen it yet I'm looking forward to it the second Ingrid is back we're going to be watching that well I recommend that and I would also I went to the Tim Burton exhibition at the Design Museum in London which has been extended now I think it goes to the end of May it is
absolutely brilliant. It's got lots of, so many of his drawings, his maquettes, models, everything from The Nightmare Before Christmas, you know, Corpse Bride, obviously all Wednesday stuff, Beetlejuice, Batman things, Edward Scissorhands. It's really amazing.
I think he's such an interesting person and to have that sort of weird outsider sensibility, but to have been able to sublimate it into so many mainstream hits, and it doesn't become trite, that sensibility. And I think it's because The Craft...
And the vision is so deeply realised. And when you're going around this and you're seeing the level of drawings almost from his childhood, it's an extraordinary mind and he's so meticulous. I love this exhibition and I love him and I think he's such an interesting story. So I love that. So it's amazing how often if you make things with love, they do cross over into the mainstream. If you make things that are a true reflection of your soul.
the market responds. And just how long he's kind of put... There's so many abandoned projects there, by the way, that every single one of them you think, I just so want to know more about this world. But he's, I mean, he's beyond prolific. It's really good. I don't have any recommendations because all I've...
done is watch drive to survive i'll recommend that for sure because i think it's brilliant don't forget you can join our members club our bonus episode this week is all about chat show disasters the worst guests ever i have The absolute inside scoop on the Bee Gees and Clive Anderson. I have absolute eyewitness evidence of every single thing. A multi-car pilot. And it's quite something. I will say that.
But that'll be on Friday. That's for members. If you want to be a member, it's therestorsentertainment.com. But other than that, question and answers on Thursday. See you all on Thursday. See you on Thursday, everyone. This episode was presented by Sky, proud partners of The Rest is Entertainment. Sky has a huge 2025 planned and they're excited to share their unrivaled range of entertainment, which has never been easier to discover.
And there is no better way to enjoy their selection of new shows and films than by using Sky TV. Sky OS powers the Sky TV experience and it lets you control your Sky TV with your voice so you can find your favourite shows and movies from Sky and the other apps without lifting a finger. My favourite way. Oh, I love not lifting a finger. I love not lifting a finger.
Say Hello Sky, followed by what you want to watch, who you want to see, and it'll be on your screen before you know it. Without having to lift a finger, you can get all your favourite entertainment quickly with both Sky shows and other apps in one place. Visit sky.com to find out more. I'm David Olashogga. Here's that clip we mentioned earlier on.
You see spiritualism kind of working its way up the social hierarchy, up the ladder of respectability, because people are desperate and they will cling to anything. And remember that we're still in an age of great religiosity. And so if kind of traditional...
Christian messages are not enough consolation, then you might seek something more direct, like trying to speak to a lost loved one. It's also worth saying that historians have pointed out, I think this is really interesting, that In an age where telegraphy had just been invented, you suddenly have telegraphs which can send invisible messages across...
The ether, apparently. Almost magically. Almost magically. And suddenly people can receive them. It's not really that much of a stretch to then start to imagine people receiving messages clairvoyantly. You start to think about telekinesis. You start to think about... the idea of invisible movement of messages, invisible transmission. It's a really interesting idea, isn't it? I think it's a really, really smart idea. And it suggests the ways in which other cultural...
factors can help influence those kinds of trends. Why would you suddenly believe in spiritualism? Well, if telegraphs, well, why not? Who says it's not possible, right? If you want to hear the full episode, listen to Journey Through Time wherever you get your podcasts.