121. Kim Philby: Stalin’s Mole Inside MI6 (Ep 1)

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He's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the 20th century. This is a person who spends years in British intelligence, in MI6. While all the time working for Moscow, and that trip leaves a deep impression. He's in Munich on the eve of an election, and he actually attends a massive Nazi rally, at which Hitler speaks. In January Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany, horrified by by Hitler and the rise of the Nazis. Then the most dramatic thing happens

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He never seemed to identify himself with his country, even though he Sport. Although Kim was a very English person, and much more at home and congenial English company than any other, he showed little affection for England or its countryside, cities, institutions, and traditions. He had some regard for the qualities of English people as a whole, but much contempt for middle class virtues and middle class likes and dislikes, though he never lacked physical or moral courage.

One could not imagine him making patriotic gestures. Perhaps there should have been a clue in all this to his real feelings. But England is full of people who appear to have little patriotism, yet would not dream of spying against their country. Well, welcome to the Rest is Classified. I'm David McCloskey. And I'm Gordon Carrera. And those are my candid thoughts on England and its people. This'll be the only time in this four-part series.

in which I evince any sympathy whatsoever for Kim Filby. But no, that was that was Tim Milt. who is Kim Philby's oldest friend, I believe the nephew Gordon of AA Milne, the creator of Winnie the Pooh, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Bizarre. Reference. Yeah. But that's right. But Tim Milne was Kim Philby's oldest friend from school, later a colleague in the British Secret Intelligence Service. And today we are starting a four-part series.

Really, I guess looking at young Philby, Gordon, the first part of the of the life of this. really remarkable figure in Ashbionage history. Yeah, I I think he's got a good claim to be the greatest traitor of the twentieth century, one of the most consequential spies of all time. I mean he spends this is a person who spends years in British intelligence, in MI6. heading towards the top while all the time, every moment, uh all through those years working for Moscow.

And he does untold damage to intelligence operations of not just the UK, but also the United States. And I think he inflicts kind of real deep trauma on both MI6 and CIA that actually shapes. Both agencies through the entire Cold War. Well, selfishly, I I guess I should also mention, I I think he has shaped spy fiction as well. I mean, you have this.

I I think real uh trope in the genre of of bull hunts, uh and you see this in all manner of spy thrillers, I think most notably in Jean Le Care's wonderful novel Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, which I mean in effect is based on Philby and and takes a lot of elements from the story that we're going to tell and applies them to the fictional world of the circus in in the George Smiley universe that John Le Care created. So Philby has this sort of

massive impact on actual intelligence operations and then also in the way that we spy novelists render these intelligence operations in the pages of spy fiction. Yeah, that's right. I think feel like every kind of story of Mohan. kind of nods to Philby. But then he's also even more than that. I mean, I think, you know, this he has this kind of psychological trauma that he inflicts uh not just on MI6.

but also the entire British establishment. And I think you could make the case That he's actually one of the most significant Britons of the twentieth century. uh you know, significant not one of the best. You know, I'm not kind of

comparing him to Churchill or Thatcher or whoever else Thatcher is. Let me clarify that. But uh but what I mean is it's a story about spying, yes, but also and war and betrayal. But it's also about the kind of British obsessions with class, with the establishment, with the elite, all of that.

is in the Philby story. And I think for Brits, I find I find the obsession with Philby fascinating because I think there is an element of almost masoch masochism in British culture. Because, you know, lots of people exert a fascination for the public. But this individual, Philby, holds you know, holds such a kind of y you know, a a a fascination for so many people and yet he's he b he was a traitor who betrayed them. So it is a kind of

relationship I think Britain has with Philby. And it is such a big story that we should say we're gonna do it in in two, you know, sections. We're gonna do young Philby now, kind of going through his rise up, I guess, to the pinnacle of his achievements, and then later on we'll come back and look at his equally dramatic downfall, I guess. In a proper sort of dose scordant of moral clarity. We should just say up front.

This is he's a bad guy, right? Like I I want I'm trying to corner you here because in our Snowden series that we did last year, you you showed disturbingly kind of wishy-washy sentiment about the the the ethics of what Teddy Snowden had done. And I think it's fair to say, You'll show no such uh sympathies here, is that right? Well, I don't want to enhance my reputation'cause some of your friends, I think, some of your former agency colleagues see me as some kind of pinko commie.

But but I do have some kind of What's the word? Not sympathy residual responsibility. First of all, let me just say, I think he's a lot classier than the CIA traitors. Your traitors are like Aldrich Ames, who's the equivalent, is just basically a guy who's trying to betray the CIA for some for some better teeth and to buy a Jaguar car. I mean that's all that's what he you know, Philby is much classier. You know, we have a classier kind of trade. So that's that's the first thing to say.

I feel like we're having two different conversations here. You immediately the comparison point was how classy are we like how classy of a trader is he? So we're just comparing it we're not comparing him to all of the the sort of loyal intelligence officers in either Secret Service. It's just a comparison among those who have betrayed the Secret Service. I would give I would give I would give you that. I mean, we also looked last year at the case of Edward Lee Howard.

who betrayed the CIA and defected to Boscow. Um and, you know, Edward Lee Howard was a way less classy guy. than than Kim Philby. Yeah, hard driven. But but not as classy as as Kip. But also I I I I I also think there's another way of seeing the Philby story. Cause you could see it, David, as the story of a A young man, an idealist With a strain of adventure, wants to fight fascism, falls in love, becomes a brave foreign correspondent, and wants to change the world. Yes.

He may then go on to be the country's greatest traitor, inflict untold damage on both British intelligence agencies, betray his friends, his colleagues, his country, and lead to the death of many agents. But we all make mistakes when we're young, David. I mean that's you know, we we all

You know, youthful indiscretion, surely. I mean that's my approach to Philby. You know, he's he's he's a young guy, makes mistakes, gets trapped in them. I mean, who who who hasn't sold out their entire country and secret service for a dose of youthful idealism, Gordon?

You bring up you bring up some great some great points. I mean also I I will say listeners who I think have become accustomed to Gordon Carrera just Viciously editing the early lives of characters that appear in the rest is classified and showing no interest whatsoever. in the loves, passions, family lives, uh, interior lives of of those that we cover on this pod are gonna be in for a real surprise because Gordon, you have

I mean, you have essentially you've essentially written a four-part series on the early and, you know, sort of family life of Kim Philby. So I don't know. I don't know what kind of we should say we're recording this before Christmas. I don't know what kind of Christmas miracle

has has occurred. But but you have changed your way. Yeah, that's right.'Cause I think it is important. I think it is important, you know, in this context. Actually, his personal life is definitely I think the key to him. As much as his

Well and I I guess w we should also say, because we're gonna we're gonna start this with a conversation about Phil P is really pretty monstrous father that Philby uh will be one in a long line of uh of traitors. Who have real daddy issues. So I do think I do think there is real merit to starting the story with the the sort of upbringing and family life.

of Kim Philby. And we should say even just before we get in, I think for those uh listeners who might say, Oh man, you're starting a story in eighteen eighty five on the rest is classified. What has gotten into you two? I will say that Because there is such a tremendous amount of scholarship on Kim Philby, and to your point, Gordon, because he really casts such a long shadow over.

So I'm frankly, over as you know, both secret services, the CIA and SIS on both sides of the Atlantic, um, there's been a tremendous amount of work done on Philby. And I think what we have here is probably the f maybe one of the fullest psychological portraits you'll get of somebody who ends up making a decision to lead a double life. for much of his adult life. And I think that's not something many of us understand fully. And we're gonna we're gonna get kind of a k a character study.

in how a traitor sort of becomes a traitor to their to their crown and country, Gordon. But let's start. Shall we with the father who is Quite a character himself. That's right. It's really in a kind of amazing character study. And and we're gonna be looking at it over these four episodes. Reminder.

If you're a club member, you can get them all straight away and binge. And we're also gonna delve a bit more into the Cambridge spies with uh an author on them, Antonia Sr., and we're gonna have some amazing material in in being able to hear. From Philby himself talking about this early life. But yes, let's get to the father. Um, Harold St. John, but pronounced Sinjin, which is the way you do it, uh I'm afraid. Lots of strange British pronunciations coming in.

phonetically. Uh well giving me some hints. This is that can't be right though, right? You don't you don't say Saint John? It's it looks like St. John. That's the way they do it. So Sid Jin, born eighteen eighty five, goes to and this will become relevant, Westminster School and Cambridge University, no money in the family. So not posh, not aristocratic, not rich. Very good at languages, passes exams, goes to the Indian civil service and heads to India nineteen oh eight.

married Dora, whose father also works in India in nineteen ten. Now he's very young, still in his twenties, but lots of responsibility, um, you know, Britain running India at the time. Early reports already give a sign that he's interesting. They say that the father mixes a bit too much with the native element.

uh much more than some of the other Brits. No hint of racism from him, and he kind of advocates for Indian colleagues. So he's an independent minded character and a bit of a rule breaker. Nineteen twelve

Harold Adrian Russell Philby is born. He is born this child in a bungalow, in Ambala, in the Punjab in India. His first language of this child is Hindi. the local language, which he talks to servants, and so the boy is nicknamed Kim. Kim Philby, and that's after a character in Rudyard Kipling's novel, Kim, and the character in that novel is an orphaned child of a British soldier who grows up with locals in India and speaks many languages, and then this boy

is um because he can kind of blend into different situations. The fictional Kim is recruited by British intelligence into the Great Game in Central Asia, the Great Game being the kind of battle between British and Russian intelligence and nations. in Central Asia, Afghanistan in the late nineteenth century. So this kind of weird thing that Kim Philby is called Kim because he's named after a kind of fictional spy when he's a child, which is a kind of weird bit of normative determinism.

Yes, you know. As World War One starts, Kim young Kim is sent back to England to be under the care of his grandmother. And the father, back to the father, goes to the Middle East because the British military want to make use of his expertise in language. He goes round what's now Iran and Iraq with British troops, protecting British oil fields. But the Brits are also trying to use Arab tribes.

to target the Ottoman Empire in what's now Turkey because it's allied with Germany on the other side of the war. Now famously, this is what Lawrence of Arabia, T. E. Lawrence, is up to. I'm sure you've seen the kind of brilliant David Lean film about that. Kim Philby's father is also going to be involved in that game.

because it begins Philby Senior's love affair with the Middle East. And so in nineteen seventeen, key moment in his life, he's sent as head of mission to meet a tribal leader called Ibn Sa'ood, in Central Arabia, who is a tribal leader who adheres to this more puritanical branch of Islam called Wahhabism. And Ibn Saud will later, later, down the line, become king of a country named after him, Saudi Arabia. I mean, i so already here, Kim Philby's dad is

connected with the kind of founding of Saudi Arabia, which is already is kind of explains why he's a kind of unusual character. I guess it provides the experience with Al Saud Al Saud in in what will become Saudi Arabia, I I think creates maybe some distance between the father and the British Empire, doesn't it? Because he's he's also

frustrated with the the way the region is sort of carved up after the first world war. Yeah, that's right. Because at the end of the First World War, the You know, the basically the Brits and the French shockingly betray the Arabs who they've encouraged to rise up, giving them the hope of independence, and don't give them that immediately, uh, leading to much frustration and A bit like Lawrence of Arabia, uh, Harold St. Philby also becomes a kind of advocate for the Arab cause in in this period.

And interesting enough, Ibn Saud, so the late and his son Faisal, so both future kings of Saudi Arabia come to Britain at one point and are looked after by Kim Philby's dad. There's a crazy story in in in in the father's biography. where the government failed to book a hotel for them. So he initially puts up these two future kings in Upper Norwood, which no offense to any of our listeners in Upper Norwood, but is not the most glamorous

part of South London. I don't know if you've ever been there, David, it's not Um but you know he then takes we're anti upper upper Norwood. No, I love Upper Norwood, but it's just not where you'd normally kind of you know take people because he then takes them to see like, you know, the King, go to Selfridge's and visit young Kim, who at this point

is at his kind of prep school, his his preparatory school in Surrey. And and Kim already at this point, young Kim, he hasn't seen his parents through the whole of the First World War. And he later says when they come back at the end of the world war, they're total strangers to him. He hasn't seen them for four years. So he's this quiet boy, not many friends, bookish. His father does take him to see the cricket. in nineteen nineteen, Surrey cricket team, which is

played, I think, the the game then at the Oval, which is just minutes walk, David, from goal hanger HQ. And cricket is going to become a theme in the Kim Philby story, which I'm sure you're very pleased at. I have done zero research on cricket in preparation for this on purpose, because I am this is my this is going to be my cricket school. You will finally through the through the life and times of Kim Philby, you will finally teach me.

ridiculous game is played. Yeah. You're gonna learn a lot. Um uh f thanks to Kim's love of cricket. It's baseball, right? It's sort of baseball with the different with a different kind of stick. That's where I'm that's my starting point. Because it cricket could go on for like five days and end in a draw, which is you know, anyway, that's we'll we'll cut we'll come to cricket. Let's not get too diverted.

So um Kim Philby's father he comes back back and forth, but he's you know, the dad spends most of the nineteen twenties living in the Middle East. I mean most of the rest of his life really, living in the Middle East. Sometimes with and sometimes without Kim's mother, he quits his government job and becomes an explorer in the twenties. So he's gonna travel by camel across the empty quarter of the Arabian Peninsula.

Which had never been properly explored before. I've never been across I don't know if you have, David, in your time, but No, but it's essentially it's it's a massive just absolutely barren, uninhabited for the most part, desert across vast swathes of Saudi Arabia.

Is is what the empty quarter is. And his father is gonna kinda cross it, you know, starts to wear Arab dress, risking his life as I said, a kind of advocate for the Arab cause, which makes him critical of the British government, who he kind of rubs up the wrong way, and he's going to become a semi celebrity in his own right. Which in some ways the you know, he's not thrown out of the British establishment because he's famous and he's an explorer.

But he's seen as a bit of a kind of roguish character. And he's dreaming of becoming rich, successful, also of the government listening to his advice on the Arab world,'cause he sees himself as the expert. So he's got this I think he's got this sense of destiny for himself, which will then extend to his son. So the relationship between the father and son is fascinating because young Kim also develops this really bad stammer. He really struggles to get his words out.

Yeah and some uh a lot of people say it's the absence of his parents. or the shadow of this flamboyant father which which causes that. Now, of course it's quite hard to diagnose. It reminds me a little bit of I mean Edward Lee Howard had the the the father who was borderline, I mean I maybe not even borderline, but abusive on occasion and had, you know, uh issues with like bed wetting and things like that. So I wonder if I you know, talking about the stammer, it seems there's sort of the sibilar

f I guess feature of this father that in some ways is absentee and in other ways is very domineering. Kim Philby himself will say, Well, my dad, you know, didn't influence anything I did'cause he was thousands of miles away.

But actually you can sense this slight whether there's a bit of inferiority against this adventurous big father, but also the father gives him a sense of of rebelliousness, of kind of nonconformism. I mean Kim Philby will later say one of the things his father impressed on him was that if you feel strongly strongly enough about anything, you've got to have the guts to go ahead and do it.

And you know, as we'll see, that's something that which the son does and which the father does. So there's definitely an influence there. I mean that quote we read up front was indicative that he's this kind of um even as a uh a a child and maybe even his father lived this out, kind of a defector in place, you know, in a way. He's he's in he's English but Not quite.

private scorn. Yeah, in it but not of it, I think. There's a bit of one upmanship perhaps with his father as well. But but you know, another thing, I think the father is definitely trying to make the son into a

more successful version of himself, or at least have him follow in his footsteps. Cause in in nineteen twenty four, young Kim Philby goes to Westminster School as a boarder, just as his father had done. So he's following in his father's footsteps and he's gonna push his son on the same path.

kind of molding him i in some ways. Our producer Becky has has noted Westminster School, Gordon, alma mater of uh Louis Thoreau, Nick Clegg, Helena Bonham Carter, and Andrew Lloyd Weber. So a distinguished cast of characters. And where does it w where does Westminster fit in uh, in sort of the landscape of posh. You know, I think in the States we would call them private schools, but confusingly,

uh on your fair island, you call them public schools, is that right? Yeah, yeah. And and and Westminster uh which is it's right as the name suggests, in Westminster, in the middle of London, attached to, kind of next to Westminster Abbey. Uh it's not uh particularly at this time, uh in the kind of twenties, not as well. sporty or as posh as kind of Eton or Harrow. Um not quite like them. And and there's a bit more space, I guess, for

eccentricity and individuality than some of the others. I love the fact that when he when he eventually I don't want to give too much away, but when he eventually flees, Kim Philby, he he leaves his wife behind, but he he takes with him his Westminster scarf. Which suggests a kind of a t a bizarre attachment to his school. Um, but the best insight I think from from from

The er about the early Kim come comes from Tim Milne, who we read you read from at the top. Milne was this school friend of Philby. Uh his he wrote a memoir um about called Kim Philby, which actually was blocked. uh by MI6 from being published for many, many years and was only released actually in the last, I think, five, ten years, you can now get hold of, which because it's such a fascinating insight into not just Kim Philby, but also into MI6.

operations. And and there's a quote from Milne. Westminster at this time, and particularly his college, were not very typical of public school life, and Kim himself was highly untypical even of Westminster. So Kim, you get you know, he Mill describes kind of Philby as, you know, a bit of a loner, he's got the barriers up.

Something untouchable about him, but also a kind of inner strength and self-reliance that made others, you know, respect him. So I think, yeah, you get a bit of a sense of an early character who's quite unusual already then. Milne has this has this story from his book where uh he and Kim go to a uh soccer match. You've written football game a football game. They got trained later. Chelsea against

Chelsea against Clapton Orient. Although for any football fans out there, Kim Philby is an Arsenal supporter. What is the profile of an Arsenal supporter? Oh well, I think our current Prime Minister, Keir Keir Starmer, is an Arsenal supporter. I don't know. I it it's North London, North London, but it's it it

So I d I don't I'm not gonna profile Arsenal supporters'cause a lot of people are on the podcast. Bid Laden was an arsenal another Arsenal. Bin Laden and Kimpobi, so we we're we're into the thiebe here. Kier Starmer should maybe switch clubs. So this is a bad this is a bad set of uh This is a bad jo bad choice bad company to to choose. That's right. And now here comes the first cricket, cricket reference. So good. Tim Mill and Kim Philby play cricket. And there are various cricket positions.

And uh Mill notes, uh Kim Philby used to field on the offside. I wish I could report that his regular position there was. Third man. But I think he was more usually f to be found at deep extra cover. It's self appropriate in its own way. So I should explain, Kim Philby later becomes known as the third man in the spy ring, but and third man is A uh position in cricket, David, fielding. And I'll just let you know this. You will find the third man positioned behind the wicket keeper on the offside.

The fielder is usually forty-five degrees to the wicket around on the boundary. It covers a large area, anything that goes through the slip and gully area. Got it? Yeah. Is the offside also starboard? Is that the same? And it's different from offside and football as well, which we should oh soccer. So That was a bad place to start, I'll say. That was I think we were in too deep. Got it. Essentially you're hitting it with like you have this swadding

thing, right? It looks like a spanking stick. And that's what they hit the little That's what they The quaffle. They hit the quaffle. Let's maybe let's maybe do a separate I think we might have to do a separate episode in which we in which we we we explain cricket to you. I might get the sports the rest of sports people to do that. What is the point of cricket? It's the point of any sport. Any sport. It's like

Enjoy yourself, dry wind. No, no, no, no, no, not like the not the spirit not the spiritual point. I mean, are you hitting What are you trying to achieve? Are you going to be able to do that? You're trying to get more runs than the other team. Runs when you run back and forth after you've hit it. Okay. There's a there's a similarity with home runs. In baseball you want runs too. Yeah. Yeah.

Um I I think maybe w we should possibly take a break there before we get too deep into cricket, because having dealt with Westminster, having dealt with cricket, next we'll come to Cambridge, which is where the action really starts. We heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello.

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Well, welcome back. It is the autumn/slash fall of 1929, and we are at Cambridge, Gordon. a uh a wonderful institution that uh unlike Oxford has produced some of the greatest traders of the twentieth century. Yeah, quite right. Autumn, fall, nineteen twenty nine, Kim arrives at Trinity College.

uh one of Cambridge's richest and largest. There to study history, later switches to economics. First year seems a bit lonely. The stammer doesn't help much with socializing. He's not sporty particularly, a bit into cricket, but not massively. Doesn't drink much at this point.

Uh we'll come back to the drinking later. So he's in the elite, if you like, but he doesn't quite fit. He's not one of the kind of posh boys from the really, you know, kind of aristocratic families. You get this sense he's got a bit of a thing for the underdog or the outsider. One of his first friends is a kind of working class miner who who's come on a special scholarship.

But the crucial thing is the context uh into which he arrives,'cause Philby arrives at university at this time of of a really intense domestic and international turmoil where everyone is thinking and talking about politics. So he arrives nineteen twenty nine, which of course year of the Wall Street crash. depression starts, unemployment on the rise in Britain as well as in the US and around the world. And that sense that kind of capitalism, the capitalist system seems to be failing.

And then politically hang on. It it hung on for a while longer though, unfortunately. Well, that's what he thinks. So that's what it looks like at that moment. You can see that. And also you have a Labour government in the UK. But it's struggling and in nineteen thirty one its leader, you know, sells out and joins with the conservatives. So Labour gon Labour's gonna get crushed. So the hopes that also a kind of left wing democratic government can bring about change also seems to be undermined.

And the conservative elite doesn't look like it can kind of cope with this crisis. Meanwhile, you have got the communist you know, five year plans in the Soviet Union. Look at that point like they're doing okay. People haven't seen the the bad side.

And then I think the c the crucial bit though, and this is where we come to my kind of you know, one of the reasons why I have a Touch of sympathy, touch of sympathy with Kim is because it again, it's the context. He can see these darker populists. Forces on the rise across Europe with the arrival of fascism. And I think that is crucial to understanding why he does what he does. He's very well traveled.

throughout Europe in the nineteen thirties. I mean it w I guess with his his buddy Tim Milne alone, he makes three trips between August of nineteen thirty and the spring of nineteen thirty three. He goes to France, he goes to Austria, Hungary, Germany, Belgium, back to France. I mean he's getting an experience that perhaps not many of his Cambridge classmates are getting in the same time period, kind of seeing what's going on around the continent as as you do have these this kind of rise of

fascism and, you know, uh kind of populist movements around around Europe. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think it he he's gonna see the arrival of kind of fascism, you know, populism, the darkening clouds over Europe, up close. In nineteen thirty two he plans to go to the Balkans, but then first goes to Germany. And that trip leaves a deep impression. He's in Munich on the eve of the of an election and he actually attends a massive Nazi torchlight rally at which Hitler speaks.

You know, Milne writes What impressed and alarmed us was the totally uncritical attitude of so many perfectly ordinary German men and women. A day or two later we sat in a workers' cafe listening to the ominous election results on the radio, Nazi gains everywhere. We felt we'd seen into the future.

It's an interesting quote, isn't it? They feel like there they're seeing the rise of fascism in Europe. Well and I guess, you know, in in thirty three then, in January, Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany. And, you know, Kim, I mean, he seems you know, obviously he's he's horrified by by Hitler and the rise of the Nazis, but he's also, I mean, I guess deeply interested in kind of understanding it and observing it, isn't he? Because going uh to Berlin, I think in March of nineteen thirty three,

sees this huge torchlight street parade in celebration of the reopening of the Reichstag. Um, he w he watches it from from a balcony, so he's kind of seeing He's seeing fascism up close, which I think is gonna Send him down the opposite path. Yeah. And I think that is one of the ways of seeing his choice is that it is he sees it as a choice between fascism on the one hand.

and communism on the other, because I think he sees that the kind of a democratic socialist route to oppose fascism i isn't gonna work. And he so he's fundamentally in some ways, I think, an anti-fascist. as much as a communist. Reminds me a little bit of the story of Klaus Fu. uh get another uh yet another British

traitor who was uh dispatched kind of to to America after incompetence on the part of your secret services and then poisoned ours. But that's that's neither here nor there. But Klaus Fuchs had seen similar you know, he he had grown up in Germany, had seen these, you know, dynamics playing out in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. And in many ways, you know, Klaus Fuchs's work with The the KGB

w was driven by his anti fascism, exactly as you're saying, you know, sort of Kilby's Philby's experiencing here in the 1930s as well. Yeah, I think that's right. And so I think these trips to Europe are pretty formative for him. Interesting enough, in one of his trips, Milne remembers that um uh while he's in Germany, Kim gets a letter from home saying that his father, Stan,

had turned Moslem, as as Milne writes, which I think means converted to Islam. Um which is you know, which is part, you know, just to keep the father story going in the background, in nineteen thirty he's gonna kind of Convert and Ibn Saud is going to organize for his you know the father to visit Mecca. He actually converts Islam. He converts to Islam. Yeah, he actually converts. Although there is this suggestion.

that he actually partly converts because he's trying to get business deals and he thinks it will be easier to get the business deals if he's converted. So yeah. I mean, so that you know the father is still on his journey, I think it's fair to say.

Um, but Philby, you know, he's done these European trips and it's only when he's at Cambridge in this nineteen twenty nine to nineteen thirty three period, he does join the socialist society, which a lot of people are members of, you know, it's the kind of just the left wing society. But it's only right at the end of his time at university in nineteen thirty-three that he converts from, if you like, socialism, democratic socialism.

To full on Marxist communism. And he definitely, it's really interesting because he comes under the influence. of some left wing academics. It's just a classic story of going to college, Gordon, and being radicalized by your your professors, right? I mean, who hasn't been there, right? One economics lecturer is called M Maurice Dobb.

Who is a socialist turn communist. And it's really interesting. You get this one figure, you know, Dob, who who brings in left wing speakers into the university, he runs small discussion groups with the students. And he basically clearly sees it as his mission to effectively evangelize the this young generation of students and draw them towards communism. I mean that's what he's doing. I guess it does beg the question of how the British security services

are looking at this dynamic.'Cause I I I would imagine most of the focus is on Nazi Germany and whether the Nazis have, you know, agents in place in the UK. But there has to be some interest in, you know, sort of, I don't know if it's in academia or more broadly throughout, you know, sort of the society, but there's gotta be some interest in

this kind of potential for communist influence as well. I mean is is that going on at this point or is M is M I five looking at this? So M I five and special branch have a have they're not very big at this time. And I it looks like most of their interest is in

potential communist infiltration of things like the army or or things like that. Something like the university, they they're less focused on. But they are there's some signs they're aware of some activity around Dobb and they've got a little bit of an interest in it, but definitely not much. Because Dobb is basically acting as a kind of recruiter. I mean we think of

you know, the tap on the shoulder famously by, you know, tutors to join MI6, but Dobb is doing the kind of tap on the shoulder as a recruiter to become communist. So it's just in that last summer of nineteen thirty three when he's leaving Cambridge that

Philby says later, you know, there's one evening, he's sitting alone in his room, in his armchair, and he just makes this kind of intellectual decision that he is a Marxist, that he's a communist. He was in, he'd never be out. And I think it is it is a kind of intellectual conversion to you know by him. It's not just a kind of emotional thing. He thinks

I believe this. You know, I believe this interpretation of history and and view of the direction of history to be true. And he really is a true believer, isn't he? The decision is informed and influenced by The family upbringing, the class system, friends around him, you know, university professors. But at the end of the day,

He is a deeply ideological recruit. Yeah. Or will become exactly you know, a recruit. Like he he's a deeply ideological recruit. He believes that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right.

In June of nineteen thirty three, he's he's finished Cambridge and he goes, I guess, back to the convent, straight to Vienna. I guess he wants to be Kind of in the thick of it, I guess you could say. Yeah, it's really interesting that h his first thought is I want to do something and it's uh he wants to go back to Austria. Austria at the m at that point is really interesting because there's a huge amount of tension.

In Vienna specifically, the Austrian capital, between City, which is pretty left wing, uh and has kind of a big workers movement, and the government and the rest of the country, which is pretty right wing. And so the tension is growing at that time. There's private militias and armies on both sides. And Philby, I think, feels like this is where the action is. This is where things are happening.

So he turns to, you know, to Maurice Dobb, this professor, who's pleased that he's converted. Dobb says, you know, I've been watching you, um, and he says, I've got some contacts for you out in Austria. I can put you in touch with some groups which do help left-wing groups.

And he puts him in touch with one in Paris, which puts him in touch with another one in Vienna. Interestingly enough, he tells his parents He's going out to Austria to learn German so he can get into the foreign office, which is what his dad wants for him.

But that is not what you know, he wants to go out there. He wants to cover he needs some cover with his parents. He's really getting cover. But what I think is is so interesting is he's not he's intellectually converted to communism, but he also wants to do stuff. He's not a kind of someone who wants to sit and write essays. He actually wants to get in the the thick of it.

by going to Austria. Again, you have to have some respect for this, David. Um but Philby arrives and um He's looking for somewhere to stay, given the address. the societal masochism that you were uh discussing earlier with just this yeah this constant sort of need to kind of relive this trauma. The pain. The pain. Of betrayal. Of betrayal. By then and and the way you're living it out is with you know, sort of

flashing some leg of sympathy for Kim Filter throughout our series. Well let's see, let's yeah, I I I still got it. I've still got the sympathy at this point. Cause he arrives and what what What happens now is a kind of key part of the story.

Because he's a young man. What happens? He falls in love. And this is, David, a love story, this story of Kim Phil. But you might think it's a story of of betrayal and class, but no, it it is it is a love story because he meets Litzy, the daughter of the family he's staying with, she is 23, so she's two years older than him, already divorced, uh, dark brown hair, blue eyes, full-on communist, also uh knew how to enjoy life. sexually liberated and in touch with Soviet intelligence. Well

Put it this way, with within within ten days they're having an affair, uh, and the um the suggestion is this is Kim Philby's first sexual experience. Mm Tim Milne and others think he's not had a girlfriend, didn't have one at Cambridge or anything else.

Um a and I do like this uh that this is Philby's own recollection, is the first time they make love is in the snow, which was actually quite warm once you got used to it, he later recalled. I mean I can't believe that I am listening to this is so this is very uncarean of you, Gordon, to to be leaving these kind of personal details.

into a character study on the rest of the class. Who makes love in the snow? I mean well maybe I mean I don't know. Maybe write in listeners if that No don't don't write in. Right in. Yes. Well we'll and I plead the fifth. We're not that kind of shirt. I refuse to share. He's infatuated. He's infatuated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And I love this. Uh you know, on their first meeting.

She says, How much money do you have? And he says, He's got a hundred pounds. She starts start right there. That's a good first question. Well, it's a communist question, isn't it? If you're gonna be a revolutionary, it's like, What what money do you bring to the cause? And he says, Well, I've got a hundred pounds, which has been given to him by his dad. Which I think it's like money from one of his you know, his dad's got some money from a book he sold.

And she she basically works out how much she can live on and says, Right, I'm taking a quarter of that money and I'm gonna give it to the cause of the revolution and you can keep the rest to live on. And, you know, that's it. So they that they fall for each other, they, you know, move into a flat together. The crucial thing he's got a British passport. which gives him the chance to move around the city in the way she and other communists can't. Because the British passport

I think really opened doors at that time. I did um did did I I I don't know what's gotten into me, Gordon. I'm just I think it's the subject I think it's I think it's the subject of uh this this yet another traitor that you sort of have fed into the bloodstream of American intelligence that's got all riled up against antibodies are up. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But Litzy Sh is she in touch with so obviously she is a full-on raging communist.

But is she in touch with Soviet intelligence officers at this time or is that Yeah. So yeah, it it looks like so she's part of a kind of circle of activists. you know, who are also some of them are Soviet agents. So she's moving in those kind of circles, basically. And and and that draws Kim Philby into it at this point. At this point he's still basically a kind of courier. He's moving money and people around.

Um, then the most dramatic thing happens on February twelfth, nineteen thirty-four. All the lights go out in their apartment and the whole block. Vienna erupts in violence because the government is cracking down on the workers. Uh it's sending in the troops. Basically there's a very short but very intense burst of violence.

Um, because the leftists have no weapons. I mean, Philby and his group are told to go set up the machine gun they've got. They go around looking for it and they can't find it'cause it doesn't exist. And so, you know, they c almost can't fight back. And they're just trying to survive because the government brings in artillery. I mean it brings in heavy artillery and shells the apartment block. Where the workers are based and hiding, and I think a thousand people are killed.

So it's a it it's it's a pretty dramatic crackdown which pushes all these leftists into hiding. And this is where I think Philby comes alive to some extent, because he he gets really involved. you know, he he rushes to see one of his friends who's the Daily Telegraph correspondent in Vienna, grabs three of his suits, and he's gonna take those down to people who are hiding in the sewers so they can change out of their kind of private militia uniforms and and into these suits.

He's going to be dodging bullets, you know, he's helping support the underground. He's moving people, using his British passport to kind of get them out to safety, helping the the wounded who are being treated, you know, again in hiding places and underground. um from the violence. So he's doing some pretty heroic and brave things in those days. And it's just this brief period before the the left is kind of completely crushed. And then another

Interesting thing, I think, is that Litzy is uh and her friends are all in danger because they're, you know, they're known left-wing act activists. So they're being hunted by the police. And on february twenty fourth, so twelve days after the uprising, he marries Lit. um, marries this young woman. This is actually gonna kind of come back in the story in interesting ways, the fact that they're married.

Uh he will tell people it's purely so she has the protection of a British passport. But everyone else is convinced that actually he's in love with her. We're gonna see there are a lot of women in the Philby story. But I actually think Litzy is the one he really loved. And then I I guess with a new bride in April of nineteen thirty four, which I mean I guess is less than a year. Uh he'd been in Vienna less than a year.

the two of them go back uh to England and he you know, he's had this searing experience of seeing the results of fascist violence up close. He's now back in, you know, the safety of suburban England. His mother and father, perhaps unsurprisingly, are not keen on Litzy. She's Hungarian, she's part Jewish, she's got a strong personality, she's a leftist. Philby and her are gonna move into a kind of one room flat. He's looking for work.

He was thinking about joining the civil service, not sure he'll get in. Um, she's still moving in left-wing circles. And it's at this point that he is approached. By Soviet intelligence. And

you know, it's worth us really drilling down into how this happens because there's a talent spotter and it's not Litzy, but it's another um kind of Austrian emigre young woman, in in this case called Edith Tudahart. Now she's called Tudahart because even though she's Austrian originally, she's married a an English doctor.

called Alexander Tudorhart, who'd also, like Philby, gone out to Austria to kind of help and move in left wing circles. And also again, like Philby and Litze, you know, sh she'd then come back you know, with Alexander Tudorhart to Britain.

And she'd been under occasional surveillance actually. So MI five and the police had been aware of her because she'd attended, you know, workers' rally in Trafalgar Square, um, at at one point. And they'd suspected she might be working with Russian intelligence. Um but but uh e even though they're kind of aware of her and actually at this point in nineteen thirty four looking for her, they don't know where she lives and there's no surveillance on her, which is crucial because she is the one

who is going to be the kind of intermediary, the talent spotter to put Philby in touch with Soviet intelligence. Well, I g and I guess crucially, um the the day uh that she kind of takes Kim out on a walk. uh in in part to recruit him. There's no surveillance that day on her. by MI five or the special branch. So there's there's no

evidence, I guess, of his of his direct contact with with either Edith Tudorhard or his recruitment. Which'cause history would have been very different if there had been that. Yeah. So she says, let's go for a walk.

uh a taxi, then a tube, then the bus, they get on and off. As the doors are shutting, see if anyone else is still on the platform. Surveillance detection route. Two hour surveillance detection route. She's trained, you know, she knows what she's doing. Uh and eventually takes him to Regents Park. They head for a bench.

He sits down, Philby sits down on the bench next to a man, and at that point Edith just walks away. So she leaves them. It is worth painting a picture of the man he's introduced to because His name is his real name, although I feel we won't learn that for a while, is Arnold Deutsch. And I think he's got claim to be possibly one of the greatest Recruiters of agents in spy historic.

You know, I think he is that important. Five foot seven, curly brown hair, blue eyes. He's an Austrian. So again, that's the first thing. Yeah, there's no Russians in this story. You know, it's f it's funny the recruitment to work for Soviet intelligence. is effectively done by Austrians in the case of Kim Philby.

Yeah, but it it is interesting, isn't it? Because at that time there were w Soviet intelligence, I guess, could draw on international communists from all across Europe who were allied to the communist cause. uh and and who were willing to work for it. And they were kind of very useful, I think, for Moscow. Um and it allows them to move round Europe. And he

He's also so interesting because, you know, he's a proper intellectual, brilliant at languages. He's already got a PhD. He's been a university lecturer. He'd worked on something called the sex poll movement, David. Aware of what that is? Yeah, I uh I did my master's thesis on the sex pulp event. So this is Arnold Deutsch and I have have much in much in common.

No, Gordon, please will you explain to me what the sex poll movement is? The sex poll movement, it turns out, was a kind of Something to do with uh the relationship between psychology, sex, and politics, which uh linked the sexual repression to fascism. So the idea was if you were very sexually repressed you'd end up a fascist, with the corollary that if you were sexually liberated and y then, you know, communism was the was was the answer. So there was kind of

I I don't know, something about free love and communism. I think that that's as far as I got with sex pull. I didn't want to dive too deep in with the web searches into sex polls I thought might take me to to take me to a strange place. Well if you'd had your if you'd had your Nord VPN on, Gordon, you would uh you would have been you would have been just fine. So

You need to flip you need to flip flip that on and all of a sudden that traffic's coming from from North Macedonia and not uh and not your uh not your flat. But uh so Deutsch at a at first, I guess he was kind of a courier obviously becomes a a spy for these international communist networks. And he's he's arrived in London, um, and he's living just south of Hampstead Heath. Um

the lawn road flats, which Gordon you've noted are quite famous, but this American has no idea why. No, they were quite famous in the thirties. I think it was kind of left wing enclave. Although weirdly he lived next to a flat owned by, although I'm not sure if it was inhabited by Agatha Christie. So it was a kind of quite upmarket left-wing intellectuals writers world. And he's got cover actually as an academic.

He's ostensibly researching psycholo psychology at University College London, UCL. And and I think the thing about him he's He's really kind of cosmopolitan, he's erudite, he's an intellectual. You know, it's perfect to appeal to someone like Philby, you know, a young man who has made this intellectual conversion to communism. uh you know, it's just the right person for the right target. And they speak mainly in German, actually, at this kind of on this bench. And Philby is

you know, he's so impressed by him, his background, his his knowledge of Europe. You know, they discuss what's happening in European politics, the rise of fascism, Marx. what Philby are doing in Austria, and it immediately feels to Philby more like a friendship. I mean, he says he was a marvelous man, simply marvelous. I felt that.

immediately and it never left you know, lever m never left me. Well and I guess part of the pitch that Deutsch makes is to say, you know, you're you're capable of more than just joining the party, signing up, handing out leaflets, and it must have been flattering to Philby to be noticed A and then B to be asked to work in secret for the for the communist cause. I mean that's quite a

you know, in obviously it's very risky, but in some in some ways it's a very flattering uh a very flattering pitch. Yeah, it's exciting. If you believed in communism and suddenly Someone is saying you can do something. You're not, you know, you're you're better than just being some normal activist. You can you can work secretly for us. And it's interesting, he talks about the international communist cause.

or the common turn, which is the Communist International, rather than specifically Soviet intelligence. So you know. Deutsch is not saying you're gonna be working for Moscow or you're gonna be working for the Soviet Union. It's you're working for international communism and the cause. Now, I think Philby would have, you know, been smart enough to realise

that means also working for Moscow. But there is a kind of ambiguity about it. You'd think so. Do you think so?'Cause I I wonder if this is yet another Austrian communist who is, you know, been put in touch with Philby through another contact. I just you c I I wonder given given that Philby has no experience with Russian intelligence, with Soviet intelligence at this point at all. Um does he realize it's yeah, does does he realise who Deutsch actually is? Yes. I mean he

It's definitely not spelt out. The Deutsch works for what's called then, we should say the NKVD, but which n we now know as the kind of KGB. That's later, you know, changes its name. But yeah, I mean it's it's true. I mean, Philby may have not quite realised that. But I love this.

you know, this line that Deutsch gives them gives him. He says, You are a bourgeois by education, appearance, and origin. You could have a bourgeois career in front of you, and we need people who could penetrate into the bourgeois institutions. penetrate them for us. And it's such a great kind of speech to appeal to a kind of young lefty, isn't it? And also it goes to Deutsch's I mean, this is why I think Deutsch is one of the great spy recruiters in history.

Because he's, I think, partly him. You know, it's not just come instructions from the center. come up with a strategy which is to cultivate fresh young idealists straight out of university and then send them into the British establishment. And of course this is kind of different, isn't it, from what we think of normally as spying, where you're recruiting someone who already has access to secrets.

you know, you recruit someone who is in a position where they have, you know, they work in the foreign ministry or in part of the secret services, and you're trying to recruit them. This is a kind of different strategy, which is a kind of long term

seeding strategy to find young idealists and then tell them to be penetration agents to get into the British establishment in the elite. I mean it's brilliant in a way, isn't it? Deutsch does exceptional work in this effort. I mean The the I believe in the Metrokin archive, I mean

It noted that Deutsch personally recruited 20 assets, like didn't didn't just run or handle them, but actually recruited 20 people. Now not all not all of them became as well connected with such primo access as Philby, but that's a that's a pretty astounding number and does to your point suggest that Deutsch you know, we t we we've done these interviews on the on the club with

former CIA case officers, you know, they they talk about being able to sort of understand and see the seams and cracks in people, kind of get a handle and over time to understand what they want and then give it to them. And it suggests that Deutsch probably wouldn't have expressed it in that way, but was capable of doing exactly that with people like Philby. Yeah. And of course you can see why they see potential in Philby on their side. Famous father, Cambridge education, committed communist.

and not yet a party member, which is quite useful. Philby had actually approached the Communist Party, but it'd been kind of initially rebuffed as they thought he was too posh. So he's not yet kind of associated with communism, which means he can work overtly. So you can see why why they think Philby is an attractive, you know, young man who they could

use to put into the system. Yeah, I think I this is where I have some kind of sympathy with Philby. Not ultimately what he does or why but you can see why with the flatchery with with the experience he's had. why this is a a kind of interesting offer to him at this point in nineteen thirty four. It also brings up the question which we're gonna talk about in the next

episode for sure, which is whether at this point Philby has actually done anything wrong, really. I mean, because he's he doesn't have access, you know, I mean yeah he's he's basically fresh out of university. Um, he's an ideological fellow traveler with uh international communism and as a result the Soviet Union. But he is he's young, he's in love, he's he's adventuresome. I mean

At this point he hasn't actually stolen any state secrets, right? We should be clear on that. I mean, he's in contact with a Soviet uh intelligence officer, which I think also by the way, Philby will come to think of himself as a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think is interesting. He won't see himself as necessarily an agent or asset, but as actually But he's not um

But you know, in he hasn't committed espionage yet, I think you could argue. Yeah. And I mean he I think it's that idea that you know, he someone's offered him the chance to do something important, to do something consequential, and also to penetrate the British elite.

But also to be part of an even deeper secret society, you know, to have one up on on everyone else even inside that elite by being, you know, a kind of communist, a secret communist within the elite. So you can see, I don't know, you know, whether it's Whether it's a yeah w you can see the kind of attraction of that. And I mean, some people read it also as rebellion against the father, rebellion against the establishment. I mean

Edward Harrison, who wrote quite a good, you know, biography of the young Philby. He thinks the motive is to emulate his father but go further. You know, her f his father's a bit of a lefty, so the son becomes a kind of even more of a lefty. The father was quite critical of Britain. the sun, you know, goes to the next extreme. I I also think there's a bit of Philby which maybe just kind of

Enjoys the game and enjoys the kind of complexity and the deceit of it and and having one up on others by having a secret life. I think there's a lot of layers. To what's going on there, as well as the ideological commitment to Marxism that's clearly part of it. I think it's in the Ben McIntyre book. on on Philp, which is called A Spy Among Friends, where McIntyre makes the point that There's this this kind of concept which is not specific to Philby, but

of of an inner ring. And and humans by nature want to be in inside the inner ring so that they have secrets and information that other people do not. Like w we naturally want to understand what's going on behind closed doors. And to to the point on Philby, you know, the idea that he's got this secret, that he has information that nobody around him has about his true loyalties, who he's working for.

That is actually it's it's a bit counterintuitive, but that's that's a very powerful motivating force and a way for him, I think, to feel superior to the people around him without actually needing to make more money or have, you know, a better job or come from a better family. He can feel that just by virtue of his

You know, his relationship to to Deutsch and the decision that he's made uh to become a committed communist. And I guess in some ways he's kind of, he's kind of It's kind of trapped at this point, isn't it? Yeah, I think that's what's so interesting. Is he so he effectively says yes, although don't

says, you know, to confirm everything, we'll meet again in two weeks, when Deutsch says, I can tell you whether you've been ac accepted. But yeah, you're right. I think he makes that decision as a very young man at twenty two and that sets him out on a path.

from which effectively there th there's no turning back. I mean, he I there is a way in which I think Philby is trapped by his youthful decisions. And particularly this one decision, when as I said, he's very young, he's twenty two or so. And that will define Define his life. What happens? That one conversation on the park bench in Regents Park. Well, Gordon, there with Philby having made this

incredible decision. Let's let's end. When we come back next time, uh, we'll see how his his journey takes him to the bloody battlefields of the Spanish Civil War. And eventually into the heart of the British Secret Service. But don't forget, if you want to hear that now, you don't have to wait and you can hear all of this four part series on Philby as well as

Some extra interviews uh we've got with uh an expert on the Cambridge Spies and also um an amazing tape really of Kim Philby talking about what happened to him, which we'll have for club members. And if you want to get all of that, plus Lots of other great things, then go to the rest is classified dot com, join the declassified club. But otherwise, we'll see you next time.