Five Mindsets to Lead Well with Paula Davis

Workplace wellbeing. Is that a human centered approach to leading or a key to higher level performance? Is it a nice to have or a critical for survival thing? For questions in paradox. One answer yes. Today we are going to be practical about the mindsets and share some specific advice to help you create that workplace wellbeing and get great results to engage, retain and inspire your team.

Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally so that you can lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for your team, organization, and the world. If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could be with us live on your favorite social channel. This one.

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And then I'm going to introduce her. There she is. I will introduce her and then we will get started. Her name is Paula Davis. She is the founder and CEO of the Stress and Resilience Institute. For 15 years, she's been a trusted advisor to leaders in organizations of all sizes, helping them make work better. She's a globally recognized expert on the effects of workplace stress, burnout prevention, workplace wellbeing, and building resilience for individuals and teams.

She left her law practice after seven years and earned a master's degree in applied psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. Paula, there's a bunch of you from that program that have been here or will be here soon. She is the author of Beating Burnout at Work Why Teams Hold the Secret to Well-Being and Resilience, which was nominated for the best New Book by the big Excuse Me by the Next Big Idea Club, and was featured here on the Remarkable Leadership podcast.

Her newest book is Lead Well Five Mindsets to engage, retain and Inspire Your Team, which will be our focus today. She has shared her expertise at educational institutions such as Harvard Law School, Wharton School of Executive Education and Princeton. She's a two time recipient of the Distinguished Teaching Award from the Medical College of Wisconsin. She has been featured in or on The New York Times, O, The Oprah Magazine, Washington Post. She's been everywhere.

She's a contributor to Forbes, Fast Company, and Psychology Today. And as I hinted earlier, she's back on the Remarkable Leadership podcast. She was here in June of 2021, so over for over 200 episodes ago. And, Paula, welcome back. So glad you're here. Thank you. Kevin, I've been I've had this date circled. I've been really looking to talk to you. We're looking forward to talking to you again. In your audience. It's exciting. And I'm glad to have you. And you've written a great book.

And everybody here's there's there's lots of good reasons to read a good book. One of them is it's short. It's, I'm aspiring. I haven't gotten here yet. Paula. So here's my new one. Like I haven't gotten. I'm getting better, but I'm not as good as you. I'm getting better. They're getting shorter. So, anyway, listen, I'm so glad you're here. Talk. I mean, in the in the bio intro. Talk a little bit about your journey.

Talked a little bit about all of the focus on resilience and that certainly in this book, but it's not the whole piece of this book. So what? Tell me a little bit about your journey and why this book? So I started my career as a lawyer, so I practiced law for seven years and then burned out during what became the last year of my law practice. And so that was my sort of stop the moment, figure out, Paula, what do you want to do with your career?

Do you want to continue on practicing or do something else? And I decided to because I hired a coach so very serendipitously. She had just finished the master's in applied positive psychology program at UPenn. And I said, what is positive psychology like? That's a thing like as my undergrad is in psychology. And I loved it.

And so, you know, long story short, applied got in, and was going through the program and that's very first not only started to learn about the science of workplace well-being, but really the science of resilience, and that the professors that were teaching me were really the foremost the world's leading experts in the science of resilience in a number of different ways.

And when I dug into the research and was learning from them, I just was like, I wish I had had this, like, this is a teachable thing, like, I wish, yeah, how can I teach this to other people? And so, you know, that was really my entry point into, you know, the science generally, but also my love of wanting to learn more and understand about what that science was about.

And so, you know, all these for the past 15 years, my work has really intersected at, you know, wellbeing, resilience and burnout prevention. And looking at that through, a systems lens now, very much like not just helping individuals, but how can we better teams, how can we be better leaders, which is how we stumble upon the the new book about the five mindsets. And we'll get to those five mindsets in a few minutes. We talked about the book. Why the book and why the book from your journey.

But why is this book? And we're going to talk about it, obviously. But why is it important that the world needs what you're talking about right now? Like what's set, the set, the why stage for us? Yeah. So I usually open with this slide when I, when I give my keynotes and my presentations, is talking about the fact that we're in such a seismic shift with our world of work right now.

I mean, you've got the convergence of the pandemic aftermath, which I think a lot of leaders still under appreciate. And I know a lot of us want to just not talk about the vastly underappreciated, vastly underappreciated the psychology and how that that experience that we all went through has really shaped and shifted how people think about their life generally and about work specifically.

But we've got, you know, the where do we work conversation still going on, the remote work versus hybrid work versus return to office mandates. We have the fact that there's just been a lot of growth and change. Generally, we are living in a climate of perpetual uncertainty, geopolitical, in name, name, the type of uncertainty. And we're really, you know, kind of finding ourselves in that.

And add to all of that the conversation about generative AI and how that is going to continue to vastly shape our landscape at work in the next 5 to 10 years plus, and you have a whole recipe for stress and uncertainty and change. And, leaders really, I think, are, you know, undereducated about how to lead from the perspective of helping usher their teams through this profound moment of stress and change and challenge and uncertainty. So I want to get the book.

The subtitle book is Five mindsets and we will get to the five mindsets. But, I'm a big proponent, of the idea of mindsets before we get into the skills. And so I'm specifically curious, Paula, why why did you frame the book around mindsets? We'll get to what they are later. But I'm just curious, you know, as the author, you have the chance to say, how do I want to frame this? Why did you choose to frame it? I think wisely, but why did you choose to frame it on mindsets? Yeah, so I struggle.

I struggled with the title and the subtitle to be I struggle with the title for a really, really long time. We didn't pick the title until really the 11th hour. I, I settled on the mindsets, wording and idea and framework in my mind, though quite early in the process, and once I landed on that, I was really it was like I wasn't moving from it.

And it was because I really, want leaders to be thinking differently and recognizing that they need to be thinking differently about the way that they need to lead, if they want the results of thriving and resilience and motivation and engagement and all of these good things. Because this is a different time that that really calls for, a new way of thinking. And so that mindset piece was a really critical word for me to include and have in that.

Well, I love that because, you know, we're not going to get different results without different actions, and we can't get different actions without different thinking. And so I'm a big proponent and believer there's a lot about that in all of our work. And I love that that's where you're headed. And we'll get to those five things in a few minutes. But there's a couple of things I want to do first before we get there. You talk about some research that was done and I hinted at this in the open.

Actually in the open for the, yeah, at the very beginning, about the fact that there are some things that people might hold as paradox, as paradoxes that really go together. And so you talk about some research that says that organizations that have both a people and performance focus, when most people would think about, well, or their performance focus or people focused, but you're saying and the research is saying that when organizations that have both are most successful.

So, number one, what does it mean to have a people plus performance focus? And number two, why is that leading them to be more successful? Yeah, I find this conversation I think it's fascinating.

And it's also a little bit bizarre for me because I start the book with the story about my dad and my mom and dad who started a business, and that my dad just really figured out, intuitively, how to lead in a way that held both the performance piece, the profits piece, the money piece, and the people piece, in tandem with each other. And so that's really how I've grown up in my world of work. And so it's so intuitive to me to think this way, because that's the model that I had.

That I have to remind myself that this isn't often the way that we think in our world of work. It's, you know, especially these days with, with work being so, complex and global and fast paced, the, the profits in the money piece really often takes hold. And so that's part of why I wanted to build the case, kind of going back to my late days, I wanted to build the argument to build the case in this book for why do we need to be thinking in this way?

Why do we need to be elevating the people side to equal the the performance in the money, in the profits and all of that? And so I try to lay out as much of that business case as I can and the argument as I can. And one of the chapters of the book and I stumbled across the study that, I think really helped to sort this out and actually looked at, quite a number of different organizations around the world and sorted them into four categories.

Those who were your typical performers, who were really? Yes. Who were really neither excelling really at the the profit side or excelling at the people side. And I think that was more than half of the companies that, that they that the research actually looked at. So most, most organizations are kind of in that typical. 5%. 55%. It's on page 20 for everybody. When you get your copy. Yes. You know, it's summarized right there.

And then they looked at, percentage of companies who were really excelling on that profit or money side. A percentage of companies were excelling on the people side. The human capital side. And then the smallest portion of companies that they surveyed were actually elevated in both categories. They were excelling in both the people in the performance side, and so then they looked at, well, what were they really seeing?

What were the companies and what was it, 9%, I think of the the blended companies who had that elevated people in performance. You know, sort of metric down, noticed a whole host of great outcomes in terms of better attrition rates, higher revenue, getting through, you know, the tail end of the pandemic and some of those shifts and swings much easier than the other than the companies in the other categories.

And it's been interesting when I unpack this research, with a lot of organizations, I do get a fair amount of pushback. And I write about that in the book. And I talk about how there's, I think, really a missing piece of the folks who are, you know, kind of focusing just on the money in the profits are excelling in that category. Only are are sort of telling an incomplete story. So while they are, you know, doing great on the financial side, which of course is really important, right.

For businesses, we all have to care about the money piece of it. What the research really revealed is that when times are good, that's great. When times are not so great, when you're in the periods of uncertainty and the change in the challenge, companies that just have that profit sort of centric focus only tend to struggle more, right? It's sort of like the the people maybe not quite be on board in the same way as those who are taking the blended approach.

And so they struggle and it takes them longer to get where they want to go compared to some of those other organizations. And so I think it's really important to tell the full story that while the money part might seem good, it's good in certain circumstances. And so there's more to say about that. I love that, I love that that's how you you build the case for this.

Because here's the thing I will say, as we unpack these five or as much as we have time for these five mindsets, there's nothing here that anyone will argue with. Except the big but is. But we've got we've got a business to run here. Like these all sound, as I said in the open like nice to have. But what you're suggesting is no, these aren't just nice to have.

Like, if you want to maybe just survive, but certainly if you want to thrive, you have to start to think about your business in new ways, including these five ways and and we'll get to those in just a second. But before we go there, and I know that all of this work is interconnected with your work around stress and resilience in general, but I think it's useful for us to take a second because I have your expertise here.

And before everyone goes back and listens to episode 285, we'll have that insurance for you. You can listen to Paula talk about preventing burnout, but, what are the sources root causes of stress and disengagement. So if we frame, we've now said here's the business case, but let's talk about what what are the root causes of this problem that we really need to work to overcome. And then we'll talk about the mindsets we need to start to make the change. So yeah what. Are those root causes.

Yeah I'm really passionate about this piece because this is what I think keeps getting missed in our world of one off programs and more benefits and more tactics and more individual facing types of things which are all good and needed and important, we're missing the deeper conversation around, but actually driving the problem, right?

It's not until we actually start to tackle the root cause or the problems that are leading to these, you know, consequences of deep motivation and low engagement and stress and burnout, that we're really going to start to make headway. And that's where you start to get into more of this, interconnectivity. Right. So it's not just an individual failing of stress management.

There really are cultural and leader shaped sorts of things that are happening that, are really leading to these consequences. And so the first one, which is I would say by far and away the biggest one that I continue to hear and certainly heard in the last handful of years, you know, out and about doing, you know, kind of collecting all of this information, this unmanageable workload.

I just have too much work to do, and I can't I'm trying to get my arms around it, and I feel like I'm treading water, and at any moment I might sink. So that unmanageable workload pieces not for everybody, but I think in a lot of circumstances, really driving the bus here in terms of root causes, the next one that actually I heard quite a lot that was a little bit more surprising was lack of recognition. So lack of recognition showing up as I don't hear. Thank you a lot.

I'm unsure of the significance or the impact that I'm making. I feel like I'm working at a specific type or A level, but my title doesn't match. I feel like I have earned the right to be on that deal pitch or part of that more visible project. And people aren't asking me or inviting me. So that's a big one. Another one is unfairness. And so that's also a big category of things like lack of transparency. I know there are changes going on.

There are whispers, there are closed door meetings, things are happening, and no one's saying anything to me about it. And I'm uncertain about where I stand or where my team stands or what the future of the company even looks like. That unfairness piece is also just general corporate politics, organizational politics, and red tape. Right? I need to get a quick answer to something. And it takes me seven forms and two weeks before, you know, someone actually says something.

Another big one is lack of community. And this one has been called into sharper focus for sure in the past handful of years about what does community even mean anymore? Because it's not just walking down the hallway and having random watercooler conversations with people anymore. Right? So we have to expand how we look at that. Lack of autonomy is another one.

So I don't have that requisite control and flexibility over the decisions that I can make, where and when I work, etc.. And then values misalignment and lack of meaning. And I'm hearing this one a lot more. Certainly in the last couple of years or so. And I think that's sort of part of the pandemic aftermath showing up. Also intergenerational conversations too, around, what are the what are the values I want from my world of work? What does my organization say?

It values, and do leaders really live those values? Are those values just a nice little poster that I see on the wall when I walk into work, or that we hear all the time in our town halls. So it's those six pieces and they're all interconnected, that we really have to start prioritizing and looking at. And so that frame worked really, really also helped to shape where I went with the mindsets. So, yes. And people, as we unpack the mindsets in a second, you'll see you'll see connections there.

But I'm curious, I'm going to take a little bit of a contrarian view here and a couple of those you mentioned. And we could certainly talk around the, the community. One of okay, that's different now than it was. You know, five years ago. But some of the rest of those, some people with maybe a few more years under their belt, you know, maybe like as old as Kevin, might be saying, okay, but Paula, those things have always been there.

Like, why are they more important or are they more important now? Or are you just sort of saying, hey, we got to pay attention to these these facts?

Yeah, I think, I think it's more so that we have to start paying attention to them, because when you start to peel back the layers of why we keep seeing consistently high burnout rates, why the disengagement levels are at their ten year low, according to Gallup research, why we're seeing, you know, these extraordinary levels of stress and discontent and other things in our world of work. There has to be a reason why.

And so I think because of the different forces that are shaped and are continuing to shape our world of work in the past handful of years, for sure. I think these six are just called into sharper focus, such that until we really start to dig into them, you know, it's going to be hard to move the ball forward. And even if these were around ten, 15, 20 plus whatever years or so ago, work looked so different 20 years ago and 30 years ago,

and collegiality was more present, I think. And, you know, companies were smaller and it made it easier to to potentially do some of these things. And so, I don't know, I think it's just I think it's more so the shift that we're seeing in the last handful of years, for sure. So I've been talking and, and and teasing, if you will, these five mindsets. So we don't have time to go into any of them in a lot of depth.

But I want people to get the lay of the land, in part because then they need to go buy a copy of the book so they get all the details. And when they're talking, if you just now joining us, I'm talking to Paula Davis, the author of the brand new book lead. Well, five Mindsets to engage, retain and Inspire Your Team. And now let's outline those five mindsets. The first is sticky recognition and mattering. And by the way, your friend who wrote about mattering

is going to be a guest on the show coming up. Yay! Oh, he is one of my favorite people. Doctor Zach Mercurio. Yes. Yeah. So he'll be coming up, some more of folks that, you know, like West Adams. West and Tamara. Yeah, they were just. On the other week. Well, they haven't, but neither of your shows have gone live on the podcast. But by the I'll probably put the link to theirs in the show notes.

But let's talk about, what first of all, we all know recognition is what do you mean by sticky recognition? Sticky recognition is a phrase that I created because I wanted to go a little bit deeper with the concept, and it's really a way to show a person or a team the evidence of their impact, because we know when we are keenly aware of that and the significance that we're making in our world of work, it just unlocks a whole host, a cascade of what I just call great psychological fuel.

So, I invented that phrase and that and that and that definition. And what I realized, because I started to look at examples of when people received moments of sticky recognition and they would say, like, I remembered it 14 years later and it was a two minute conversation. And I'm like, how? Like what? What is what is going on with that? And so I started to dig into the research a little bit more and realized that that that act of sticky recognition really turns on this notion of mattering.

Right? We feel like we're achieving something that's important to us, but that we are also accomplished. We are accomplishing goals that are important to us and that people are noticing it, and they're saying something about it. And it's a fundamental human need. The absolutely hundred percent.

The thing that I want to say here about this is that, you mentioned in this section often that this mindset doesn't mean, you've said it twice now, a simple thank you with clarity and reason for the thank you might be all that's needed. And so I think a lot of times as leaders, we think, oh yeah, I need to do that. I don't have time to do that. Well, first of all, we need to make time and thinking about it may not take as much time as you think.

And no, in fact, the the example that I put in the book, the the person talks about how it's a two minute conversation. She said the conversation took two minutes. And I remember at 14 years later and it was like anything that this particular leader asked me to do, I said, yes, or I mean, it just it just ignited something completely different in her.

And when you read the chapter, you, and as was I when I was first learning, you know, some of the strategies and tiny noticeable things, as I call them, that helped to fulfill this mindset. It is shocking, easy, basic human behavior that we all learned in kindergarten, probably amplified. But. That's another book. Everything I need to learn, I learned in kindergarten. That's all. Right. And that was even shorter than yours, Paula. Right.

So the second of the mindsets and you've you've written about this before, but really important piece, what you call that a ABC needs. Yes. The ABC needs are a powerful trio of needs that we all need to. And this is regardless of generation, in our world of work. And it is the as autonomy. So we need that sense of what I call choosing your own adventure. I want the ability to be able to have some control or say or work in decisions. The B is belonging.

So that sense of community and connection and that, the C is challenge or growth, right? We want to be growing toward goals and getting closer to things that are important to us at work. I love that, and if we bring that mindset with us, it helps us recognize those. Those three things are so powerful. And as leaders, we can start to find ways to to engage those needs with our folks.

The next one goes to one of the very specific things you said earlier about the the root causes of disengagement, and that is workload. Specifically, you call this workload sustainability. Yes. Working on that. This was such a hard chapter to write. I thought this this I didn't want to write this chapter because as I started to dig into it, I'm like, this is just too big of a and this is an immensely difficult, interconnected, complicated topic to start to unravel.

But I realized that I would not be giving people, given that that was such a big driver of discontent. I can't not, but something about that in in the book, if I'm writing about mindsets that leaders need to have. And so really what it came down to and part of it made it in the book and part of it, is really good or better teaming practices and really good recovery. Or what do I do when I'm stressed? How can I take a pause? Practices. And so it's the teaming lens or focus.

That is what made it in the book. There's a piece to and we don't have time to dive into it. But again everybody, when you get your copy, make sure you go to page 75 when she talks about why does overload happen. And there's some points there for us as leaders. And they struck me. I think I'm pretty good on most of these. But a couple of these like failure to rebalance when people leave huge impact. I mean like we all know yeah, that makes sense. But we don't do it right.

Or we assume that people will figure it out. Well, if we don't give them some help, they aren't going to be able to figure that autonomy is one thing, but leaving them alone and ignoring it is something entirely different. And oftentimes I think, especially in bigger organizations, another one of those things that you mentioned, there is just an absolute blindness to the impact, right?

We're going to and this is a bigger thing, but we're going to cut, 10% of our workforce and then, well, they'll figure it out. Well, we have to start to say, what? Listen, humans aren't good at work. We're not good at saying no. And if we do things like that, like we got to help people decide what to say no to. Well, absolutely. And also, humans aren't machines.

And that's how we started to functionally, I think, sort of think about them sometimes because when we cut when you cut workforce and you keep the workload the same or it starts to increase, that's going to have a consequence. You may not care or you may not see it right away. But it's there's going to be outcomes associated with that. And you in people just that's not sustainable. That word sustainability was really important to me. Because that's what I'm looking for here.

I'm not looking for us to take our foot off the gas. I'm not looking for us to say we've got to work less hard or all of those things. It's just that we've got to do it in a sustainable way so that people don't burn out. I've got loads of the burnout statistic still, you know, fresh right now, I mean, and it's going in the wrong direction. And so we've got to we've got to really see how we can marry those two things. The fifth of the mindsets is about values and team alignment.

And I think, well, that's super important. I think all of us can have a pretty clear picture there. But I can't have us spend time and not talk about the fourth mindset, which is systemic, stress resilience because it's such a major part of your work over the long term and not just this book. So what do we as leaders need to be thinking mindset wise around systemic stress resilience?

I think that word systemic is key, I think, and that's really a theme throughout the whole book, is that we need to be thinking, yes. How do we help individuals build the capacity or increase the skill sets that are associated with resilience? But we also have to look at it. Then what can we do to make our teams more resilient? Because there's a great science that tells us more about how to do that, and even organizationally, then let's go.

Biggest picture how do we help to make our organizations fuel resilience at the organizational level? Because there's also great strategies for that. And I was just I was so struck because I was writing this book last year. And as I was digging into the research, I kept coming across like little pieces and little snippets of different strands of things talking about, you know, surveys of leaders and what have you.

And consistently it was at least half, if not more than half the very senior executives saying that they didn't feel that their companies were positioned well positioned to handle the next whatever crisis might be coming, which I it floored me because here we are ushering out of one of the biggest challenges and crises that organizations in our world of work has faced ever.

And to say that that hasn't done something to help you or want you to start to see, okay, well, what's next around the corner? Or and it's because they. Treat it as a one off thing. Well, that will never happen again. And it. Probably it probably won't be a huge global pandemic, but there's going to be lots of other types of challenges and various different you know what you. Just mentioned one generative AI, right? I mean, like. There you go. Right? Right.

For sure, for sure. So, is there is there something that you wanted us to talk about or that I didn't ask about, that you wish I would have? I think, I always like to sort of distill this down into, like, a, like a quick little, you know, what is this book about? If I'm going to pick it up. And I think that leading well in this day and age comes down to a couple of two different things, really. It's really good teaming practices.

And I don't think we spend enough time talking about what do good teams look like and how do they function well and it's also really good human practices. We have to come back to this notion of meaning and values and caring about other people and, you know, making sure that they feel connected to others at work.

And we've got to do that looking through the lens of, yes, we still got to make the money in the profits and all of those good things, but it's the good teaming practices and good human practices that are going to get you a really, really long way. Excellent. I want to shift gears and ask you a couple of questions that I always ask, my guests. And one of those is, what do you do, Paula? For fun. What do I do? So I have a nine year old. My daughter Lucy just turned nine a couple weeks ago.

And so she and I love to travel, so we just did a quick little overnight on her spring break, to Nashville. And so that was her her new state and a new city for her. So love, love, love to travel. And I miss you. Different things with a nine year old in Nashville than you might do with a nine with a 29 year old. Just saying. It was so funny because I was telling my friends I'm like, wow, it's a really different experience. I didn't know there were that many candy.

Candy shops and boot stores and like other things that we went into, it was so. There is a tremendous ice cream shop there. Is there? Imagine dairy. Okay, we missed. Anything shake I've ever had in my life. I am not getting any payment for that. Everybody, the American Dairy. Longest line I've ever waited for for food in my life. It's a long story. But if it was worth it, I'll do it, right? Yeah. I'm a foodie, so I love that. Go back to the adventure part. It's a we made a memory.

That part is for. Sure made a memory. And it was. And I'm obsessed with sports, playing sports and watching sports. So I there's a lot of, you know, golfing and volleyball and I try to keep up with my running practice and all sorts of things. So I love sports. So, you hinted at during the writing of the book, all of the reading that you need to do, and I know what that's all like, but I'm curious. What are you reading now?

Is there anything that that's on your reading list or you've read recently that you want to share with us? Yeah. So there's a fantastic book. It just came out, I believe it was the end of March called Why Workplace Well-Being matters by, Yann Emmanuel Deneuve and, George Ward. And part of the reason I'm not all the way through it, but they've got some great studies already that have been published.

Part of the reason why I love this book is it's, I think just it's hugely detailed with the business case. So if you pick up lead well and start to see some of I mentioned some of their research and in one of my chapters, if you want to take a much deeper dive into that research, go pick up that book, because I think it's a game changer for our wellbeing work at any level, because it's starting to really put very concrete business terms to it.

We will have that in the show notes, of course, as we always do, before we, well, let's just do this. What? Where can people find you? Where do you want to point people? If they want to copy the book? Where do you want to go? All that stuff. Sure. So the hub of all things, with my business is my website. So stress and resilience.com would be the first place you can buy the book there. You can also just hop on Barnes and Noble or Amazon and buy it, buy it there as well.

Also, LinkedIn is my social media platform of choice. And so, it's where I publish all of my work first, my articles and studies and things of that nature. So lots of lots of cool things coming up this year. So awesome. So before we say our goodbyes, Paula and I and to all of you, I've got a question that I want to ask all of you as listeners and viewers, if you've been here before, you know what I'm going to ask? Here it is. If you're new or you forgot. Now what?

What are you going to do with what you just got? Like, this is useful stuff. It's interesting stuff, but it's not really useful unless you can take action on it. So what is it? From what you just heard, Paula share that you're going to act on and I'm I took my own notes about what those things are for me. But the question is, what would those things be for you? How do you think about perhaps it's thinking about what do we do to to create this both people and performance focus.

Maybe it's thinking about one of those mindsets. How do I what could I do today to create some sticky recognition or to rethink workplace workload sustainability? I don't know what that thing is for you, but what I do know is that if you don't take action on this, this will be of less value to you. Then if you do. Paula, thank you for being here. It's a pleasure to have you back. You're we're less than a dozen people I think have been here more than once. So you're really glad to have you back?

I'm so honored. Thanks, Kevin. I was so looking forward to this, and it never disappoints. And so thank you so much. It's my pleasure. So, everybody, if you found this useful, take action, as I already said. But here's another action. Go tell someone else that they should listen and invite them to join you. Wherever it is that you listen to your podcast and make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen to your podcast so you don't miss any future episodes.

Like next week when we will be back with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.