¶ Forces of the Cosmos and Synchronicity
I pick up through this conversation , perhaps particularly early , that levels and moments of uncanny happenstances that were pivotal and I know you've written about it and talked about it too these times in your life where the things that you wouldn't have perceived even possible , or even to be there invisible forces , if you will , or at least the uncanny how that you
just happen to be there or that happened to happen then I'm curious then again over the journey of your lives to date . How do you reflect on that , those forces ? Is there something there that you've developed language around or a sense around you ?
know .
Know , what I would say about that , aj , is that I was not raised with any formal religious training , and that was a blessing for me , because when I found my way into a spiritual relationship with life , what I have come to recognize is that for me , the divine is embodied in what I call mother life , or what is commonly referred to as the natural world .
You know , I love nature , I mean with a passion that really I used to think that if I showed it in public , people would think I was crazy , yeah , right , but I really really love it . People would think I was crazy , right , but I really really love it .
And and I believe that , you know , that framework allows me to imagine that there are all kinds of invisible forces on our side and I mean , it's true that in our lives together there have been so many blessings that often seem counterintuitive or how did you do that ? Or wow , that was lucky .
Um , I mean , it's amazing to me that we've pulled off pioneers for 35 years , but we have and there's been a lot of prayer behind it and , I believe , a lot of support from from mother life , um , because I think she's the greatest power there is .
She and love , right are the greatest powers we have , and so my personal opinion is that we've had a lot of help , and I don't know exactly where it comes from . I don't know if it's ancestors or disembodied spirits or nature herself , but I know that we've had it and I know that it's real , at least for me .
You know they don't call it the great mystery for nothing . I made a film series that's relevant to this that hopefully your listeners won't run away screaming . You can see it online if you dare , Called Changing of the Gods when the Stars Align for Revolutionary Times . I don't know if you're familiar with it , AJ , I don't know if I am either .
So when I was first fleeing the East Coast , I landed in San Francisco for about nine months and made friends with an older woman and her daughter who was a Russian emigre and she was very mystical , looked like a tarot card herself , and I'm coming out of hardcore politic , political activism and student movements , and she wants me to get an astrology reading and
I did everything , politely , that I could to sidestep it , dodge it , ignore it , and finally she really leaned on me and said , all right , all right , all right . Well , this guy told me , this astrologer told me more about myself than anyone could possibly have known . In fact told me more than I knew and things that actually influenced my life from there .
So I was just interested in that . But astrology has been regarded , as you know , magical thinking and nonsense and , you know , quackery , whatever , and so it's not something for polite company and I never particularly , you know , talk about it with people .
But anyway , long story short , I asked a friend of mine who's an astrologer if there were any great books written not about personal , subjective , person-centered astrology , but societal . Are there forces happening all at once to all of us that can actually be documented in any sense ?
Or , you know , attract in that way , and he turned me on to this amazing book called Cosmos and Psyche Intimations of a New Worldview by Richard Tarnas , and Richard is an exceptional . He's a cultural historian and exceptional scholar , really , really serious scholar , with classical training as a Jesuit coming out of high school and all that .
But he backcast across history to look at , at any given time , the outer planets which move more slowly from Saturn on out Jupiter . Actually , were there patterns that could be discerned culturally , mass culture , and I read the book in 2012, . It absolutely blew my mind .
I mean , the data are overwhelming , you know , and these periods correspond to the archetypes that astrologers associate with those planets . So the real metric which , of course , Carl Jung wrote the famous monograph synchronicity . Are coincidences , just coincidences , or is something aligning here that these things somehow happen ?
The conditions are there for something to happen , and so synchronicity is actually one of our metrics in terms of you know , you're in the flow when things click in those ways . It also means you really have to be paying attention . It's not like there's a hand of fate that's going to do this for you .
You've got to be , you know , in the game and paying attention , and there's a lot of nuance and subtlety . And you know , for example , Uranus , the planet Uranus , among other things , is the trickster . You know the coyote , and one of the characteristics of the trickster is , as Freud famously said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar , not a phallic symbol .
So sometimes it could just be a fake out . Don't be too sure of yourself , Humility is our constant companion . But , yeah , I think synchronicity for myself when I feel like I'm in the flow and really paying attention and looking for cues and clues . And you know and you don't always know , and you certainly don't always know something in the moment .
It may not become clear for years or decades later that oh wow , look what happened at that moment . You know so .
Well , and I want to add , because I think you're very modest about this , changing of the gods is really well worth checking out . It's wonderful , it's available online and it's a brilliant masterwork I instantly assumed that , oh , I didn't listen to it I didn't listen to that bit .
the the last episode is called Conscious Cosmos . And what if ? Let's say so ? The film tracks this one particular planetary picture of the planets Uranus and Pluto , which each time they recur . According to the hypothesis anyway , it's a period of revolutionary transformation , large scale upheaval , you know , political upheaval across every sector of human life .
So it happened from 2007 through the end of 2020 . The last time it happened was 1960 to 1972 . Is that right ? Everybody in this last period was saying God , this is like the 60s . Yes , and you go back in time and each leapfrog across these cycles when that picture recurs French Revolution , same period , mid-19th century , same period , every single time .
So what that suggests is could it be that consciousness is actually inherent in the cosmos itself ? We're not just talking about intelligence and nature . Very few people dispute that anymore . I mean , it's been held for 500 years in science that human beings are the only ones who have intelligence .
Everything else is just a machine , a dumb machine , right , instinctual and mechanical . Well , we know that's not true anymore . But what if consciousness itself is part of the fabric of the universe ?
So that's the kind of next level , if you dare to go where our species has not fully gone before . It's also an amazing view of movement history throughout time I mean it's quite .
yeah , let's go where humanity hasn't been before , have we maybe oh , well , ancient cultures have Traditional indigenous .
Sure , of course it's all ancient , not all . But I mean the thing now is we've had the capacity to destroy life but on a limited scale , whether it's regional or local . Now it's global and it's the entire species at risk and and the biosphere as we know it . Earth will be fine .
Earth's got at least another billion years to go before it blows up and turns into a red dwarf . But we're not talking about saving the Earth , we're talking about saving ourselves . You know , let's get real here . Nature will repair , just not on a human time frame .
And a bunch of our relative species .
Yes , if you take a bunch with us , so we need the ancient knowledge and we also need every tool we've got , which includes contemporary science , which includes all the you know . This is when people say we're in uncharted territory . Actually we're in territory that has never existed on a human timeframe . It's not that it's uncharted .
This hasn't been here before , yeah , so it makes me recall the story I've heard from you , I think , nina of how Bioneers even made it through all those years . I remember the story of the funding that came your way when you were nearly done and dusted that came out of an uncanny situation .
I just feel like adding a little more flesh on the bone from your lived experience to this conversation before we move to wind up with the funder who came to you after a meditation .
Yeah .
Yeah .
So it was . It was nearing the end of the year and we were a half a million dollars short of meeting our budget . And as the year end was drawing closer and closer , we had gone to all of our major funders and asked them to consider that and they had all said no .
And I was working with a woman who was trained in several indigenous modalities and I considered to be quite knowledgeable And- .
And a deep meditator actually .
Well , but that- .
Oh , oh , sorry , go ahead .
No , and I kind of said it as a throwaway line like gee , is there anything you could teach me that could help me to attract resources to Bioneers ? And she was very serious and she said , yes , I'll show you . And she taught me I don't talk about this in public much , she taught me how to program a crystal .
She taught me how to program a crystal and you know , had it been anyone else teaching me something like that , I would have been rolling my eyes , I would have been out the door , I would have just scoffed .
But this woman was someone I respected so deeply and so I paid close attention and I did everything she taught me , and a few days it was actually just about the middle of December a funder called and said I heard in my meditation this morning that I should give you what you wanted . And I had been meditating and focusing .
You know , programming the crystal involved developing a visualization for what you wanted to have happen . And so I had Bioneers as this great tree and I had women around it watering the tree and paying homage to the tree . And there it was . We just got this phone call out of the blue , that's interesting though .
So it was metaphor you were envisaging , though it wasn't money in your hand .
No , not at all . It was nurturance to the system .
That's interesting .
Yeah , yeah .
That is fascinating . I'm so glad for it . Okay , so , with that in mind , as we weave to a close , you guys are obviously still powering on . I'm wondering what's next for you , and have you any words for us ? Next gen ? Even what might be to look out for .
Well , I would love to see Bioneers be reached and visible by people , many more people around the world , because we do sometimes refer to it as a natural antidepressant and we know that an awful lot of young people have come to Bioneers saying you know , I showed up here in despair , not knowing what I could possibly do with my life , and a great many of them
have come to me and said you know , now I feel like I have 10 options and I even know how to pursue them and how to learn about them and see if I can go that way . So that's one thing I mean I would say to next gen young people , many next gens actually .
¶ Birthing a New Civilization
We need you , and I want to remind us all that we need each other , because I don't think we have a lot of training in intergenerational collaboration and I think this is a time that really calls for it .
And you know , as an elder myself now a young elder , a yelder I call myself I'm learning how to be in reciprocal mentorship with young people and how to really respect what they know more than I do and what I know from my own lived experience .
And so I just want to encourage folks to see what lights you up and pursue that and don't worry so much about the money , worry about what lights you up , because that's what's regenerative and we all , I mean I feel so lucky and blessed to have done work that surrounds me with people who inspire me and who help me coalesce a vision of the world we're all
working towards and we need that , but we need each other to get there more than anything . So you know , practice collaboration and don't ignore your internal realities , and let yourself feel your emotions and become aware of what your body's wisdom is teaching you , because we need that too .
I mean , nature created us and we didn't create her , and there's a lot of wisdom in all these systems that have been devalued by our cultures but that we need now . So listen for all of it .
Oh , nina , before you start , kenny , sometimes nature chimes in at the most extraordinary moments , rolling thunder here . Quite often I'm telling you there we are , kenny okay , well , the drum roll .
It was sunny when we started , and now , it's completely gray and thunderous you know , this is a dire moment . Let's not . I mean , and it really is now or never we're already in overtime is the truth .
So the pressure I always feel is how to make a difference that really makes a difference , because there are all kinds of great things to do , but is it to really move the needle ?
I love that line .
So one thing is that really since the beginning , our MO has been around part of it , anyway , has been around nature-based solutions . That's still what's missing in the bigger mix . The train has left the station . In terms of renewable energy , it's happening . They're going to slow it down , hobble it , do whatever they can , but forget it . The game is over .
Fossil fuels are history . This could move really quickly from here . In fact , for economic reasons , yeah , exactly yeah , I think so . But the nature-based solutions is that paradigm clash and people are still so undereducated about this and just don't understand .
So we're looking at doing some special projects now , both with media , but also actual on-the-ground stuff , to try to catalyze , scale and advance the adoption of nature-based solutions , which also relates directly to land conservation , has a lot of implications for indigenous peoples .
The rights of nature movement now is really actually a serious thing and is gaining tremendous traction globally , and it's transpartisan it's not left and right at all , you know . So that's something that I'm really excited about and that I'm personally very engaged in .
And then , you know , given for a lot of reasons I mean a lot of what I do is media and you know that kind of thing and so we're doubling down on a lot of our media and I think the other really huge issue , as I said , is it's the corporation's . Stupid People have misdirected or been misdirected to blame government . It's not government .
Government has been captured by the corporations , don't kid yourself , and they're manipulating it every which way for their own interests and to deflect you , so don't kid yourself about that .
So we're looking at doing some special projects and partnering with a number of people and we have a new project relatively that just started last may , called by news learning , which is an actual platform for trainings , workshops , how to get in the game if you're not in the game , to learn about these different you know , like , if you want to learn how , what
rights of nature is and how to actually bring it to your community , you can do that .
So whatever your interest is kind of yeah , so we're going to be scaling that up over the next year or two and and looking at you know other anyway , a lot of some interesting political projects , but really yeah , um , and then we're deep , deep into the indigenous thing , as we have been from the beginning , and that's um , it's tribes are at the forefront
worldwide in so many of these issues , including the rights of nature , movement , and there's so much to learn . Still there to communicate . So rightful place . Yeah , that's what we're up to , yeah .
Well , so much yes . Nina .
Yeah , I just wanted to add that . You know , for me it helps to remember that we are in this moment of birthing a new civilization because , everything about the civilization we've inherited is crumbling and falling apart . We know it's not working and it's terribly corrupted .
So for me , what's exciting about that is that the opportunity for young people is to see what you love and what you most want to protect and defend , because there are opportunities for reinvention everywhere , whether it's working with children or in health care or an economy , or I mean really every aspect of human civilization .
And so you know , if you don't focus so much about money , do what you love and trust that the money will come . That's what I would say .
Yeah , yeah , I think I mean people ask me , young people , or young people ask me you know what should I do , and I have enough trouble figuring out my own life .
I'm not really big on giving advice , but I really agree with Nina if you follow your heart , you can't go wrong there's so much media that's falling away , and not just the disruption to mainstream , the old weeklies and public radio .
Where's the way in media ? I mean you're doing your bit , obviously . Is there something more of us should be doing on that front or can be doing ?
Well , you know , one of the most important things , certainly in this country I'm hesitant to always talk about other places because I really don't know but one of the worst things that happened is the corporatization of local media , because although people don't trust the national mass media , they do trust local and the weather and the sports and the local news .
And the right wing was very clever in corporatizing those and putting the same message out and the same disinformation , and it's well shown that when people get good local news , they make much better decisions about actual solutions and pathways and that , among other things , is really critical .
We just did a big panel at Bioneers this year about that and we're about to produce a radio show about that .
Really , I'll look forward to that .
Yeah , it's a critically , critically important thing . And also , much more news is moving to non-profit now . Um , that's another key to the whole thing . If you stop monetizing and you know commodifying and you know all the news , then you get much better news you get much better food underwear .
You get much better everything . No , you get much better everything . Arguably . I think you can see the threads , can't you ? They go through the whole thing . It's really powerful , because in Australia right now those corporates abandoned local media during COVID . They just dropped them , so towns had nothing .
But now , just in the last 12 months even there's a plethora of outlets coming up that are just often young people some ex-prominent journos , but some just community getting together and even in print , and they're making it work and , of course , without those lofty expectations of what a public radio CEO still expects to get , for example .
That make it hard to make it viable . Quote unquote , that's true . Yeah , I really take stock of that . That's a mechanism that's already seeding again in the shadows .
Well , in every way of connecting locally with your local community , whether it's your food system where does your water come from gathering with your neighbours and having potlucks , getting to know the people that are around you . I think you know that's a really important key .
A friend of ours likes to say how we're going to hold it together is to hold it together , that is beautiful and I think back to where we started around .
the sensitivity to soil , seed , plant , ancestor , yeah , let alone processes with our immediate ancestors like that . The whole kit sort of dovetails in there .
Well , I told you , aj , I don't do interviews anymore . I just don't do it for whatever reasons . You looked really pretty good , but that wasn't enough . But Australia , we have really good friends in Australia and someday we aspire to come there . So that's why we're sitting here with you our agenda .
You , you must have manifested it you , you must have meditated for you Secretly , clearly . Oh yeah , no , in all seriousness knowing that about you , kenny , I'm doubly grateful and very much grateful to you both for having me at your table here . It's been a really moving conversation for me and an absolute honour to be here , thanks .
Thanks for your work .
I enjoyed myself .
Yeah , me too Good luck .
Thanks .
Thanks for your work .
I enjoyed myself , yeah me too .
Good luck , we really support your work .
NS: Yeah , it's beautiful . AJ: Right back at you . Y , That was Nina Simons and Kenny Ausubel , the legendary founders of Bioneers at home in the land of enchantment , Santa Fe , New Mexico .
See various links in the show notes , including to my favourite episode on the wonderful Bioneers podcast and perhaps my favourite of any podcast , Undam the Klamath: H ow tribes led the largest river restoration project in US history , nd to say I'm looking forward to watching Changing of the Gods is an understatement .
I'll have more from here , as always for subscribing members on Patreon , with great thanks to all of you generous supporting listeners for making this episode possible . If you'd like to join us , just head to the website or the show notes and follow the prompts . Thank you , and thanks , of course , for sharing the podcast with friends or family .
The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden and , at the top , Green Shoots by the Nomadics . My name's Anthony James . Thanks for listening . Thank you , beautiful . Wow , you're doing great . Excellent . Yeah , wow , that'll be very nice in the background .
Will you hear the thunder ?
You will .
Oh , fun yeah .