¶ Preview & Introduction on Donkeys, Biodiversity, and Regeneration
They cooperated with humans at some stage to the extent that , over millennia , their wild ancestors are no longer there . At what point in time do they lose biodiversity value ? Why should something lose its biodiversity value simply because it cooperates with humans ? But isn't that what we've done ?
Everything that cooperates with us, we cancel its biodiversity value and if we can't make money from it, we kill it .
G'day , Anthony James here . You're with The RegenNarration , enabling the regeneration of life on this planet by changing the systems and stories we live by . Welcome to part two of Coming to a Head in the Kimberley , featuring one of the great stories of regeneration and one of the most spectacular regions in the world, at a time when both are acutely on the line .
The voice you heard at the top was award-winning regenerative pastoralist at Kachana Station in the East Kimberley , Chris Henggeler . We pick up the conversation from part one here on the latest with the donkey situation .
Since we last visited Kachana , the State Department that ordered the donkeys at Kachana be shot as pests, and the Henggeler family that has geared their behaviour towards regeneration, have been in mediation at the State Administrative Tribunal . The Tribunal's adjudication on that appeal is due before year's end .
It will carry with it the fate of the donkeys at Kachana, and with that the fate of a potential game changer in regeneration at scale across the region - and at a time when it's desperately needed .
We talk here about the latest developments and research, some of the language , history and other complexities on the matter , including the donkeys t he Henggelers do shoot at Kachana . A nd we end up at Chris's current personal efforts on some paradigm changing health practices - and some of mine too .
So pull up a patch of lush grassy ground cover back at the gorge with Chris .
¶ Connection and Collaboration for Decision Making - An Update & Exploration of the Donkey Situation
Alright , let's address what I know a lot of listeners are ever wondering about up here , where the donkey situation is quote , unquote , to the degree we can talk about it , with the SAT process ongoing , which is the State Administrative Tribunal for those who aren't aware over here , a mediation process that we talked about last time .
Again , to the extent we could . I t's coming to a head at the end of this year at the outside , though you're at a point where you might be able to have it come to a head a bit earlier than that . What can you tell us about where it's at ?
Well , I'm not allowed to discuss any details of what's being discussed , but what shall I say ? The whole process has been going on for about two years now . It's been a great learning experience .
We revealed a lot of knowledge gaps and those knowledge gaps haven't been closed , but I think I'm reasonably confident that we're getting to an area where we can actually have a move forward in cooperation with our government departments . We've got to look at the various sizes and I don't think we want any black and white or just two ways of looking at things .
We need to look at it from a number of perspectives . First of all , what is the intent of the legislation ? From what I can tell , the intent of the legislation is fine . We don't have to necessarily change the intent of the legislation . We may have to sort of redefine it and bring it back to the mind what the real intent is .
But what we do have to start looking at is maybe reassess is the way that we're trying to achieve the intended outcomes . What has changed since that legislation was brought about ? Is there new knowledge ? Are there new challenges ? What's happening ? What are the dynamics ?
We talked about some of them at the start of this conversation .
So for that to happen , well , let's go back to the teams we talked about earlier on . We need a number of teams . We've got the regulators , but we also need the researchers and we also need the implementers . So we're on the implementing area side and experimenting , we're trying to adapt . I mean , people talk about climate change . Well , what's climate change ?
Well , one of the phenomena of climate change is that species appearing where they normally aren't , doing things they normally aren't . Well , that's nature responding to change . And us at the coal face there , whether we're in the partial area or in the farming area , just primary production we're at the interface between the wild and the domestic .
So , if there's substance to climate change , well , we're going to be the first humans to be experiencing that . So if we're sensitized , we will be reacting to that . Now , whether those reactions are good or bad , I don't know , whether they're desirable or undesirable , I don't know , but we will be reacting and these reactions are happening .
And that's where it's so important that we have a good connection between the three teams that those at the operational end , those at the research end to keep us up to speed with the data and navigation options , and the regulators to keep us make sure we stay on the road , and then the leaders , who maybe then can take that and say , well , well , given this
new knowledge , given the new situation , or given the stability of the situation , how long do we want to keep on going on that trajectory ?
So you know , it just doesn't make sense to me to have a disconnect between the land and those people who have got the power to influence people's lives , without the feedback loops internally , internally , how interconnected we are and how we need to rely on each other , because you know , just like you know , I need the cities just as much as the city people need
us . They may not be aware of it , but we can't afford to just lose millions , billions of dollars now every year , you know , every other year , because of floods , damage or whatever . We need to address these challenges so that they can build their desal plants and not have to build bridges over here that are going to be washed out again .
You know there's a lot of economics and ecology of .
They are twins , you know you can't separate them .
Well , if economics is the management of the home and ecology is the understanding of the home , that you have , it .
Yeah . So , on that note , back to your original question where are we at ? I think this whole fiasco has allowed me to understand the dilemma , or understand a little bit better .
The dilemma that the regulators have , because their main job is to keep the industry in check and not , by choice , just unwittingly , I've stumbled across a danger area that's beyond the commercial production areas but that is impacting the economy , as I say , in half a billion dollar unexpected price tag for Fitzroy , you know , yeah , if I had to be paying it , I'd
be asking questions . So I realize it's things that would annoy me and I think , oh well , you know , I can't these guys see . Well , you know , but these guys are busy people , they've got enough to do , they don't want some . What do you call it ? A pre-radical thinker doing radical things without knowing that ?
You know this is not going to be a sort of a precedent that all of a sudden , next thing , we're going to lose control and we can't regulate . So I see I fully understand the importance of a regulated industry , but that's where , once again , it's no different what he said earlier on , with the local fire management or whatever .
We need to have communication and yeah , well , I had a few medical issues which made me go down to Perth and I was . The good thing about that is I was able to speak to a few people and say well , listen , come and have a meeting on the Gachana , don't believe me . I can understand why you don't believe me .
I can understand why you want to tick those boxes that you have to tick , but come and use your own five senses and evaluate what we've done and I think , because of what we've done , you know if it resonates well , maybe we should really throw some science behind it and and rigorously analyze it and let's not just shut down the donkeys , let's not shut down
this project until we actually have the information , let's fill the knowledge gaps and , yeah , if , if the science then bears out , you know , hang on , no , this is undesirable or whatever well then , all right , let's get rid of the donkeys , but until we actually let's make informed decisions and I think that's that's , I guess , my role .
Being at the end where the information's being produced I've got to somehow make sure that information's actually getting to the decision makers and doesn't sort of get lost in forms that aren't asking the right questions .
Speaking of research , one of the things that's coming along is you've got a PhD student who started work on the oh , that's great , yeah , yeah .
No , there's a federally funded I don't know about , but certainly at a federal level there's research being funded and we have a PhD student actually looking at some of the impacts that the donkeys are having . So that's only just start of this year , it's it's . We'll know more in a few years time .
Obviously , I think the first , the first part of the research , is just getting some baseline data , and then I think the student needs to sort of come up with a plan that then the supervisors need to tick off and then the real researching begins .
And so , yeah , she's just been three months here collecting a bit of baseline data and the nature of the research , the , the fact that we've got records that go back 30 years or so and it's that satellite technologies improved and we've also got you know .
So she doesn't only have to work with , she can reference our documented stuff , which is biased , obviously , because we write things the way we see them and the way we perceive them . But then you know she's unbiased research . She can analyze it with with , with her , supervise her way .
But we've also got other , you know , the satellite analysis , which is different Perspective again . So so it is exciting . We've got some interesting results already . There's just from the satellite analysis alone . It's just a preliminary analysis . It matches the carbon sampling that we have and says , well , there's something going on here .
So if there's something going on here , well , that's good . The question is is it the wrong thing ? Do we need the regulators in here with the big sticks , or is it the right thing ? Do we need more scientists asking more questions ? So yeah , it's exciting .
Yeah , yeah , and that the supervisor , or one of them , is Ariane Wollick , who also has the Dingo biodiversity project . I think it's called as well which relates to some of the conversations we've been having with woolen station to , of course , fascinating broader research that she's done over the journey .
Well , it's actually interesting . I guess because of this donkey debacle I've become a bit more Sensitized to what's going on in the rest of the world and there's some interesting information coming in .
You know , people looking at what Donkeys and zebra are doing , while zebra in Africa , but also domesticated donkeys with domesticated herds in Africa , south America , apart from guard donkeys and whatever .
Just the fact you've got an animal that does something different , that can coexist and work together with with hers , and there is there is a lot of interesting Research that , a lot of interesting papers coming out . At this state I can't say they Substantiating what I'm doing , but they certainly supporting what I'm doing .
Very interesting , certainly worth more looking into . Yeah , yeah , and not being hasty .
Yes , yes , yes , let's not , let's . Let's not throw the baby out of the bath Bathwater . You know there's maybe sort of bathwater that needs to go with chucked out or simply filtered , but let's just hang on to the baby for a little longer .
Well , it's good to hear that there's that federal funding for that , and it's worth mentioning that you were awarded the by the State Department .
Wasn't about that thing . That range lands in our and land in our in my . My quite sure how they . There is definitely public funding behind them .
Yes , publicly funded Range Lanes in our M group that awarded you the soil health champion of the year last year , and well deserved . But of course the immediate thought for someone like me is They'd want to look into your methods , not just your outcome . He would think so .
Hopefully that is a point of curiosity that's playing out , actually I think the range lands in our M group are looking . There we go . I figured that would be .
Yeah , it's yes , I think it's once again you . I'm new to all this because I this has kept me off the streets for 35 years and I sort of Back then , when , before we started , and , and I was talking to all the people in departments and it was , the names were different and the people were different and the roles were different .
And apparently , the roles Well , at the time it was blatantly obvious what the roles were . There was research and extension service , and that's what I benefited from , and then we were learning together , the departments , and working together and learning together , and it was great .
And then 97 things changed apparently , and All I know this is , you know that that I was on the wrong side of the political correct fence and the departments were . We're no longer interested in what was happening out here .
What I wasn't aware of Directly was that research funding started disappearing , that extension services became unprofitable and couldn't be financed , and and , as a result , a lot of the Expertise that's relevant to what we're doing here ended up leaving the department not all , but a lot . But what also happened is is it ?
The regulatory functions Obviously couldn't be abandoned and they they increasingly attracted , but , as regulators , would the , the lawyers and policemen and jailers and Security guards and , unfortunately , thugs as well . You know it's just .
It invites , it attracts a different sort of a person for a different function and a more linear approach , and that , of course , clashes with the complex Issues that we're dealing with in an area where we're not even in production . So it's , it's not it's . So we're not about regulating industry . We're trying to build something . You know we've it's . It's .
In a way , I feel like we now have a security guard that can't tell the difference between the shoplifter and the person Building and stacking the shelves . And I see myself as the builder and stack of shelves in a supermarket that needs to be opened for the next generation , or at least for our grandchildren .
And well , if we don't want that for our grandchildren , fair enough . But I think the public need to have a say in it and the politicians need to be . Who end up signing the dotted lines , do need to be Appropriately briefed , and that's why I'm calling for rigorous scientific Evaluation of what we've achieved before , which just gets written off .
Again
¶ Wild, Feral & Domesticated Animal Management - Including When Donkeys are Shot at Kachana
, it can't help but strike me coming across the Kimberley this time , the cattle that Rome and you know John Henwood talked about this From 40 years ago , that just Rome , in what he called just continuous crazings with you . Call that set stock or just , frankly , unmanaged , certainly less managed than your donkeys here . Is that something they're looking at ?
Does that come up ?
I don't know , but I do want to say something there , anthony and that's my experience in the last 40 years is that those people in the industry now , on average , have really lifted their game . The pastoral footprint in most of northern Australia has improved . However , having said that , it shrunk .
We are focusing conventionally viable pastoralism on areas that are where it's Feasible to do it . There's no financial incentive to go and risk your herd , risk your profits doing things that you're not going to get rewarded for . So the area is that we can't make a dollar .
It's easy to just fence them off and leave them or just ignore them , but those are the areas costing us , that are now costing us . They are the ones that's supplying the bushfires , the floods , yeah , exacerbating the droughts and increasingly contributing to fairer weather .
I call it because we just end up with more and more Ground heating up and radiating heat once the sun's over the horizon , where otherwise , you know If it's the area like this , the moment sun goes down it gets cold . Like you know , it's sleeping here . You'd need a sleeping bag tonight .
Yeah , yeah , it's interesting that John had fossil downs which was said to be , you know , largely rocky and rangy , not not the best Pastoral station , yet he achieved so much there , even there with those methods . So , yeah , it says a lot , I think , that what you're saying here , so much possibility in it .
The other thing that was that was of great interest to me was I don't think we've covered this before . I mean we did . It was mentioned , but it's not that you don't Shoot any of the donkeys here .
Oh , we actually . Actually , it's a good chance that we shot more donkeys in the last two years , just in business as usual as Well . Probably no . If we probably shoot more donkeys than most people , then again , if there's no donkeys to shoot , well , you can't say I'll what in shooting ? Yes , but no , we do shoot donkeys and what's your ?
what's your line ? What's your rationale ? Where do you decide ? You know what gets shot and what doesn't .
Well , the main reason we shoot ? Well , there's a number of reasons . We shoot donkeys . We shoot the ones that don't behave functionally I might have to sort of digress here , but I do . We distinguish between feral and wild .
A wild animal will express its Wildness while it's performing an ecological function that either sustains or enhances the conditions that it needs to live in . Now , how it does depends on the species , but it's the same as us . You know we have to camp here .
Well , we'll flatten the grass , we'll do something to just make a little more comfortable for us and more level for us , and then every species does that right .
So when you get a herding animal that Ecologically its function as a large herding herbivore is to mulch , even fertilize and prune vegetation , and you take , take it out of the herd and you say here you are , just go for your life , you've got all year to just pick out whatever you want . Well , it's not going to move out as a herd .
Each individual is going to look it's me , me , me . All the ice cream plants go first and whatever . It's . Just what we've observed when that happens is over time . You end up with pads , you end up with compaction , you end up with losing the best species first and and you end up with a downward spiral .
Once again , there's no pressure , so why not propagate ? And then all of a sudden you've got too many animals for what's being produced every year and you get this downward spiral which was happening when we arrived here . Yeah , but when we arrived here , it wasn't the donkeys doing that . Who was the cattle doing that ? We did the majorty stock .
We shot the donkey as well , in good faiths . You know thinking , you know they were the problem , but it was . It was only thanks to , you know , alan Savry's work and the subsequent research by people like Richard Teague and that that have Substantiated savings , savings findings , and we realized it's got absolutely nothing to do the animal numbers .
It's got everything to do with animals , behavior and , when domesticated animals are involved , its management . But we don't even have to look at purely the domesticated , mismanaged or poor management or whatever zero management . We can go to a place in southern Africa called Kruger National Park which people go to from all over the world . Great park , wonderful .
You can see all the animals of Africa . We haven't lost a single species in the last 200 years . However , if you look at the landscape , it's dysfunctional . The species are not functioning the way they should . That landscape is going backwards . It's as bad as areas where people have farmed tobacco and whatever .
So it's the functioning of the species is important and the question is how did nature have these checks and balances ? Well , in hindsight is a great thing . Hindsight tells us we had predatory relationships getting these herbivores to function in that way .
So if we haven't got the right for this Australian new Australian megafauna , we didn't import new Australian predators . So it's up to us to make sure that the new Australian megafauna behave as their wild ancestors did in their ecological niches and find them and enhance them and whatever . And that's where management comes in again .
And so shooting donkeys that don't behave the right way is one way , but then in every donkey I shoot , that's just another arm of hay every day . That's not being put back in the ground . That's going to be a fire risk . So it means that's not the only reason why we predate on donkeys . The other reason is how we shoot them .
We shoot them in a way that they do not associate us with as the predators , which just allows us to interact with them . But as a population they sense that they're being predated on , so they are adopting or re-adopting instinctive behaviour which has been dormant for aions and it's worked with a cattle .
It's working with the donkeys so interesting , and I'm sure to work with other species as well . I just won't get there yet , until I've got the donkeys and the cattle under the level of control that I'm happy with . And when I'm happy with it I'll go to the people higher up and say , well , are you happy with it ? And then can we go the next step .
Yeah , camels , whatever . Yeah , there's multi-species stuff .
We haven't scratched the surface of what's possible .
And speaking of cost , we spend so much in this merciless , not subtle at all culling .
Well , there's the cost of culling the animal , but there's also , I like , quoting Peter Andrews he does it with the trees , and it's a difference . You take a plant away , well , what's going to replace what it was doing ? These things are doing something . They may not be doing it optimally , but they're doing something .
That's why I like let's go back to Steve and Covey . You know it happened . Number two , once we were aware that we need to make decisions . Well , where do we want to go ? What do we want our great grandchildren to inherit ? And if we want them to inherit that , well , what are the trends ? What needs to change in those trends ?
And these are the sort of experiments that need to be happening Now . If the D-Act department haven't got the funding for that research , well , what about the people on the ground who got skin in the game ?
Now , I don't know about others , but I've had the privilege of traveling through various countries and I've got family in various countries and I've talked to farmers in various countries and a lot of farms in Australia , and I have not yet I have yet to meet a farmer who hasn't got at least one or two pet projects .
That's not really making him money but is actually looking at how can we improve things , how can we do this or whatever . How can I learn more ? So what I'm saying is , on every , potentially on every farm on the planet , we have real life research backed with skin in the game . We've got unprecedented levels of technologies .
Well , if we're not going to fund out Ag departments to do the research , well , let's fund them that they can go there and find out what's going on and build bridges so we can tap it .
Someone taps me on the shoulder and said well , one of the problems I have , one of the things I want is how can I have better , how do I manage large herds , the watering of large herds ? Well , I can go to Africa and learn there . But if some guy says , hang on , there's a guy over in Queensland or in the territory , he's already doing it .
Well , hey , great , you just saved me a trip to Africa , I don't have to learn a new language , I can go and see what they're doing and the research is happening . Let's get the communication going again .
So it's back to the basics , bottom up communicating , building trust and doing what works and adapting it for local situations as the demand changes or as the challenges change , and that way we can deal with the climate issues pretty effectively . Like I mean , while we've been talking here , we've actually had a change of climate .
I'm going to have to just get up and move back into the shade again because the climate has changed and it's not comfortable here anymore , and then the question is over time . Maybe we should just have more shade and then we can have a conversation like this without having a shift change . Or maybe it's not too much trouble to shift anymore .
Yeah , but no , that's the thing . At the end of the day , you're not going to shift to a place like Kananara . Well , maybe let's create a microclimate enough microclimate that a town like Kananara could become the basis that it should be , instead of being a hot house .
Good one , hold that thought .
It is a change of climate , isn't it ? Isn't it beautiful ? It's like dining in the air condition . It's just , it's beautiful , isn't it ? It's so patently simple .
I wonder how simple it is in those moments when you're selecting which donkeys to cull . How long do you wait and or what measures do you employ to try and coax them , in that you don't feel out working ?
The only reason I have to cull is because of the political pressure that's there . I know I've got enough experience to know we could , given the time , we know how we can control them and manage them , keep their wildness and get them to function .
But I'd have to throw money which I haven't got at something that at the moment is being ridiculed and in fact trying to be shut down . So it's just financially . It's not even on the table that option , but yeah it's easy , it's like a number of things here .
there's a lot more that could be done . Oh yeah , yeah , very good .
¶ When are the Biodiversity Values Lost for Wild Animals? (And how to have non-polarising discussions about it)
And finally on this front , if please .
Something that and I think you mentioned Aran earlier on it's obvious when it's stated .
But there's a question that we need to ask ourselves If these domestic animals , whether it's the cow , the donkey or the goats or whatever , they've all there's no wild goats left , there's no wild cows left , there's no wild horses well , there are a few wild horses in some places , but there's hardly any wild donkeys left . I don't think that's the thing .
But they all had their wild ancestors . They cooperated with humans at some stage , to the extent that , over millennia , the wild ancestors are no longer there . At what point in time do they lose biodiversity value ? Why should something lose its biodiversity value simply because it cooperates with humans ? But isn't that what we've done ?
Everything that cooperates with us ? We cancel its biodiversity value and we can't make money from it . We kill it , and sometimes in wasteful ways .
That's a very good point . You mentioned wild horses and in fact you talked about wild horses , Kimberley . Who cares about the horses in Kimberley , the wild horses in the Kimberley ? And there's , of course , really polarized community dynamics around the brumbies , down in the Snowy Mountains across the other side of the country .
Is it polarized or has it become polarized , or are we just polarizing the discussion ? Having come from the donkey side of it . I just listened to something the other day and we had the horse lovers , the brumbie lovers and the brumbie haters . That's not a discussion , that's just airing a conflict for the public to see . Hang on .
I think we've got to start somewhere else and say well , what's happening , what do we want , what do we know , what could we do about it ? Get the respect , the local knowledge , respect the needs , respect the desires , respect the values and use the templates that we've got that can create consensus and productivity .
And let's get productive thinking going and cooperation . Because just polarization the moment I see polarization , it just raises a flag in here . Something's wrong here . That's not how nature works . It's linear . When nature is linear , it's what games are ? Nature is cyclical .
There's waves , there's complexity , there's multiple options and nature then ends up selecting which ones are the most viable and which situations . So let's use the knowledge that nature gives us in some of this decision making which is directly related to ecological outcomes . I'm not talking about building a factory and let the engineers do that , fair enough .
But eco-engineers are different and in that respect each species is an eco-engineer and we've got too many of them . What's the water balance ? Back to that word balance , and the beauty about it in Australia is we have a population vacuum . We have all this sunshine and water that's going to waste .
At the moment , we still have agency to make informed choices , when all we need is to get the information and then let's make informed choices forward and look at the options and then find out what works best and what's the scenario .
I wonder ,
¶ The Language and Importance of Communication and Responsibility
through this process , these last few years , has your language changed around the donkeys at all ? You talked about wild animals and then they're learning to cooperate with humans , but where they're not entirely domesticated . But are they wild still ? Has your language shifted over that journey ?
I guess partly , perhaps to be able to relate better with the authorities who are concerned about the troublesome , the destructive patterns out there .
That's where , unfortunately , one of my many weaknesses is that I'm not in a position to use the lilies or the gobbledygook , whatever double speak . I can't talk that language .
That's being spoken in that political level , political arena , and , having travelled around I've been travelling in countries where I don't speak the language Yet I've learnt that even if we don't speak the same language , if we want to exchange information , we can do so .
But if we don't want to exchange information , even if we speak the same language and use the same alphabet , it's not going to happen . And that's why , in this discussion , we need to , at the beginning of each discussion , just agree on how do we look at certain words , what do they mean ? And that , of course , is a problem .
If I'm talking about controlling and I say , well , it's like controlling a machine , I've got controlling a car , and for them , controlling means kill it . Well , first of all , I say we can't control nature . We can kill things , but we can't control it .
The best we can do is manage it and , whether we want to or not , we're influencing it simply by being here , being part of it . So if we want constructive conversations , once again we need to be talking , and so it's the bridging the knowledge gaps but then filling the knowledge gaps .
That's the biggest challenge and as a grandfather , I guess , much as I hate it , I've come to the realisation that finding solutions that no one wants or is no one's ready for ain't the way to . You know , much as it floats my boat , I'm not serving my children and grandchildren by doing too much of that .
I've actually got to try and build bridges and help fill the do what I can to fill the knowledge gaps , so we don't need those bridges that we can actually have free flow of .
This is where the threads come through this conversation , right through this part of it too , and I thank you for doing those bloody hard yards on behalf of all of us in that sense , and really look forward to that's probably not something you're feeling .
Is it Really look forward to the outcome to be able to , you know , I guess , continue the broader conversations either way and go on with it either way , to not have the sense that everything hinges on what happens in that room ? How are you feeling about that ?
We have a what do you call it ? Fall back position . If what we've done in the last 35 years is not credible enough to warrant serious attention , there are enough people worldwide who understand what's going on that we can pass the hat around to look at relocating the donkeys To somewhere else .
Now I'm not going to live long enough to see this play out anyway . I'm certainly not going to live long enough to see these catchments healthy . I'll be gone long before the challenges that we've been trying to address disappear .
So therefore , you know it pains me to watch , to think that , hang on , we've just got to put everything on ice , try and just consolidate that noise that we've got and just put it on the shelves till it's ready to be pulled out again . But we can do that and we can pass that around .
Take those donkeys and either do a different project and then it's a research project and it's no longer wild , it's just artificial and whatever .
But at least we're hanging on to those that valuable genetics of a species that's been here longer than we have been , harshly selected past that selection process that nature throws at it , had 35 years of further selecting for behaviour . That's functional right . So they have an ecological value . They have a genetic value which is being appreciated .
So it's going to mean passing the hat around and it's going to cost a fair bit , but we don't have to . We're not going to have to blow them all out . We don't have to lose the opportunity forever , but we are .
We would definitely shoot ourselves into the foot big time in a Kimberley , but that's once again , let those who can make the decisions decide and let those who are silent perhaps think about it and wonder well , should they maybe ask a few more questions and maybe even more vocally what's happening ? What sort of a world are we living behind for our grandchildren ?
Because , at the end of the day , it's not about us . We've everybody who's listening to this , everybody who's certainly everybody who's listening to this , and a lot more . We've lived in very privileged times . How can we hand on some of these privileges ? And that means being aware of the responsibilities and stepping up to the plate .
On that note , your invitation at our last encounter on the podcast titled Wanted Land Doctors , which was taken from a presentation you'd given not long prior . That's still the invitation on the table , isn't it ?
It's an invitation , but it's also a . It's not a call of alarm , but it's a call to alertness . How do you justify having an army ? What is so important , that we every year spend money to try and train people to have military preparedness ? Well , it's things that would jeopardize the whole society .
I'm saying these ecological challenges that are threatening our economy . Over time they are beginning to be important . So I'm not sure how much pain , how much financial pain , how much emotional pain is required .
With small communities disintegrating and having to be relocated and whatever , and cities growing having to embrace people who actually would rather be back in their little villages or small towns . I don't know how much ecological and how much emotional , social and financial pain we need to go through before people realize , hang on , there's no one coming to save us .
It's up to us and that , as I've said on one or two occasions I think I'm probably no exception that as a grandparent , I'd love to be able to . If ever my grandchild looks me in the eye and says , what did you do , I can say I did my level best , and
¶ Exploring Breath, the Microbiome and Regenerative Living on a Personal Front
I just hope a lot of my fellow Australians can do the same . They can say well , yes , we informed ourselves . We were aware what's happening and we did our level best to create a better future for you guys .
Now you mentioned what you might not be around to see , but personally I hope you're around to see quite a bit yet and you do when you're done .
You're consistently engaging on your own health in some new ways , and I come in this time and I see the Wim Hof Method book on your shelf and Breath and Breath the latter I haven't actually got into Wim stuff yet in any depth anyway , but on top was Breath by James Nester , which I have got into , and I actually tried to have James on the podcast , but he's
about to finish his next book , so maybe after that . But I was immensely curious . As you know , I asked you about it . This is something that you hadn't even thought about either , but something that again speaks to the untapped capacities or maybe at least not for some time tapped capacities of us as humans in the world . But what's your experience of it ?
Where are you going with this ?
All right , I like things that rhyme . And what do we know ?
2023 , in 1999 , elanning and the Soil Food Web Knowledge started becoming available in Australia and the essence there is that our foundations for the sort of lives that we want , the sort of animals that we are and the productivity that we need begin at a cellular level good aeration , chemical communication , biochemical communication between cells and functioning ecosystems ,
functioning soil food webs , functioning webs of life and flow of information . And when it was about three years ago , four years ago , no matter , even five years ago , all of a sudden I started hearing talk about the microbiome . I realized , hang on , this rhymes .
And not only does it rhyme , one particular I forget which book it was in , but they actually show a cross section of a root hair and a cross section of your gut lining . And you realize , hang on , we're looking at the same thing here .
Like the soil is a digestive system of the plants and the nutrients go through the root hairs into the plant and in our gut we have the digestive system and the gut lining takes the stuff .
So then we find out that not only do we have bacteria on our skin , without which we couldn't live , we have it in our digestive system , but we also have bacteria in our organs , in our brain , in our heart and whatever . We are in fact , as individuals , a collective of organisms . And yeah , it rhymes .
Now I don't claim to fully understand , well , I don't claim to even half understand and I don't know , and we won't ever be able to fully understand it .
But we can appreciate and respect that the web of life is a very valuable , precious thing and if managed reasonably well , there's an awful lot of resilience there and as you get older you start losing that resilience .
But if you sort of behave in a way that you can encourage this functioning web , you can actually maintain high quality life for a long time or actually rejuvenate signs of old age or whatever . And no different from the landscape . So just as our landscapes are yearning for rejuvenation because of abuse I'm guilty of abusing my body to
¶ Full Circle to the Start of Part 1
some extent joints and things . And yes , well , go back to the elements you know aeration , appropriate hydration and energy flow . So there's so much new information coming out and as long as it rhymes with what I've experienced , my filters let it in and then I start studying more .
If it conflicts with what I've experienced , well , then I'm sort of more reserved and maybe not as open to it . But no , I'm very open to some of that stuff . And then , once again , when you start asking questions , whether you're open to new answers , well , if you don't , well , you're not .
Yeah , and fascinating too . I mean , I guess , for those who haven't read it , spoiler alert but how it dovetails with food , the food picture too . That's right , the formation of our very physical and multi-confertilizing of our guts . Yeah , I believe people have delved into that .
Yeah , it's an exciting time . You know we've got challenges , but it's certainly . We're getting some very interesting information and the beauty is that you don't have to just take it on board in blind faith . You can actually .
You know , most of us are privileged enough that we've got five senses and we can use at least two or three of them , if not all five , to actually test the relevance of this . And then , if we're lucky , we've got intuition as well .
Exactly that's what I was going to say .
If our intuition sort of has served us in the past , well , let's not throw it out the door .
Here ,
¶ Music, Concluding Words & Last Updates
here there's our close circle . For this one , I reckon , Chris , that's beautiful , but of course music is music , even in your life at this point , with so much that you've got going on and Well , nature's my music .
You know this orchestra . As more biodiversity is coming in , there's more music . At night , like when we first came here , it was just , you know , just silence , and now it's the deafening noise of crickets and cicadas and night birds , and , well , you'd say the rooster as well , but that's .
I'll move up the valley . For that I'm happy . Now I get the other ones .
And then in the morning the other chorus starts . You know it's yeah , there's some good music . My taste in music hasn't changed . It's very often mood related , but I've come across a lot of people who say things that really is music to my ears , you know , and it's got the , the various facets of the regeneration . I can call them movement .
Now , I think, yeah it is fascinating . We're beyond where we were 40 years ago , 20 years ago , where we still had gurus and you know like it was a religious approach . You know , are you one of them, a re you, or whatever ? A nd there's sort of discipleship and whatever .
Now the gurus have had to refine their theories and discard what didn't work , and the second generation are cross-pollinating . So it's there's a lot of music being made . There's a lot of noise out there too , which I'm trying to avoid , but I like the music .
Well , there's an art in that too, hey ? What to avoid and what to delve into and indeed create . Well , mate , should we stroll back ? Chris: Yeah . AJ: That was award-winning regenerative pastoralist , Chris Henggeler .
For more on Chris, Kachana Station, and to hear part one of our conversation , with a bunch of photos on the website , see the links in the show notes . And for the kids , our boy Yeshe gives a tour of the homestead in his podcast Yeshe Interviews , and next week he chats with Chris too .
By the way , I've also put a link in the show notes to an incredible composition by Sheila Silver which Judy Schwartz sent me this week . Judy being my guest in episode 175 and author of the Reindeer Chronicles, which featured Kachana and the donkeys .
This composition , called Resilient Earth , features a piece called Shooting Ruminants towards the end , inspired by experiences like Kachana . And it's accompanied by extraordinary artwork in this particular performance . Well worth a look . Sheila's husband , by the way , is filmmaker John Feldman , who's just premiered his film Regenerating Life in the US .
We'll share more about this too , as its global streaming launch nears in December . This episode was recorded in late August before heading to the Regenerative Agriculture Conference in Margaret River .
Since then , I can tell you that the State Department has sadly not taken up Chris's invitation to visit Kachana on the ground and advised it will be doing another flyover inspection to satisfy itself that culling the Henggelers have reported has taken place . I'm not sure of the effectiveness of that method and can only wonder at the cost of the exercise .
B ut perhaps , more to the point , the opportunity cost . What if that expense and time , let alone the expense and time associated with , say , the Fitzroy flood was put into assistance ? Maybe some trials on some of the lands in desertification freefall around the state ? O r even just goodwill and trust building across stakeholders ?
As we've heard from Judy Schwartz and Tim Hollo and Amanda Cahill and others on this podcast , we do know processes that can achieve that - if we would choose to do more of them .
And while we can all understand and be grateful for the department's compliance mechanisms being in good order - indeed , I'd love to see more of it - this just doesn't feel like appropriate engagement with a family who's done so much for this country . There must be better ways we can do this together .
It's just two and a bit weeks now until we meet again at the Reconnection Festival in the Northern Rivers of New South Wales . It'll feature Zach Bush , Charles Eisenstein ( virtually), and a range of brilliant artists , performers and other Aussies in conversation with each other and me as MC . I believe Chris Henggeler is still on track to get there too .
For podcast subscribers , you get a 10% discount - just see my recent posts on Patreon for the discount code . A nd subscribers also get behind the scenes footage from Kachana and elsewhere as we get around the country . So if you've been thinking about becoming a subscriber , I'd love you to join us .
It's with thanks , as always , to this community of generous supporters that this episode was made possible . Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration . com forward slash support - and thanks again . Thanks also for sharing the podcast when you can think of someone who might enjoy this , and for continuing to rate and review it on your favoured app .
It all helps . The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden off the soundtrack to the film Regenerating Australia . My name's Anthony James . Thanks for listening .