¶ Preview & Introduction
As long as the sun shines and water drops out of the sky each year , there's absolutely no reason at all to chuck in the towel . I think we've only scratched the surface of what's possible , and I am still very , very optimistic .
G'day , Anthony James here . You're with The RegenNarration , exploring the stories that are changing the story , enabling the regeneration of life on this planet . That was the award-winning regenerative pastoralist at Kachana Station in the East Kimberley , Chris Henggeler . Our last visit to Kachana was two years ago .
That was the Centenary episode and is still the second most listened to on this podcast . I introduced it like this: Tens of millions of pests degrade lands and waters in Australia alone . Pigs , goats , camels , buffaloes , donkeys . C ruel , wasteful , expensive , mostly futile and often counterproductive culling programs are no solution .
But what if it didn't have to be this way ? What if some of those large wild herbivores could be harnessed towards regeneration ? This is the story of a family that has regenerated an incredible patch of country and for 20 years that has incorporated and relied on wild donkeys .
The bond these animals share with this station family is clear , but the State Department recently ordered the family to gun them down . It's a painful flashpoint . One of the great stories of regeneration is on the line and , by extension , the potential for next generations to build on it , further restoring landscapes at scale for all our benefit .
Chris Henggeler and his family manage Kachana Station in a remote pocket of the East Kimberley , only accessible by foot or air . They took responsibility for this desertified and abandoned country and have achieved so much .
Yet , with still vast lands desertifying around them and so much opportunity to build on models like Kachana , Chris gave a presentation earlier this year called Wanted Land Doctors . It was a powerful invitation for the next generations to join the fray and how the rest of us can help them do it .
Two years on , the state tribunal process adjudicating on Kachana's appeal to save the donkeys is coming to a head . Resolution is due in the next half dozen weeks or so . In parallel , you could say the Kimberley itself is coming to a head .
Forecast to suffer unliveable heat in the coming decades, we already know of a number of so-called climate refugees heading south or to the coast , to say nothing of the worsening floods , desertification and related social and financial costs .
So this week Chris and I draw some of the broader patterns together here, that are shaping the current flashpoint we've been hearing about at Fitzroy Crossing . A nd we hear the latest on how they're being turned around at Kachana and beyond .
That leads us to a deep dive on some of the best stories , thinking and deep intuitive wisdom we're coming across, that helping more heads and hearts come together, to make more of the good stuff happen . Then next week , part two of this episode will feature a full and telling update on the donkey situation . Before we start .
It's an uncannily timed thank you to Kimberley man , Jardine Macdonald this week for your generous subscription . Thanks also to Mark , Rachel and team at Miller and Baker in North Perth , featured back in episode 69, and keeping us fed in a more direct manner, with some of the best baked goods we've ever had - including some of those Haggerty grains .
Yes , there are many ways you can support the podcast ! A nd , speaking of which , thanks very much also for the stream of soul lifting correspondence flowing from last week's episode with Heidi . A nd to Heidi and her community for indeed welcoming us in to their healing ceremony the morning after the referendum .
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¶ A Glimpse into Restoring Wetlands & Clear Rivers at Kachana With Managed Herbivores
Okay , let's join Chris in the incredibly lush valley behind the homestead at Kachana Station . Chris , you've brought us down into this gorge behind the homestead here . Bring the listener in . Describe what we're sitting amongst , eh .
We've got a gorge that used to be part of a wetland plug and is a water catchment of about 120 square kilometres that drains through this area . By the time I got here , that plug was all but gone and certainly had been lowered because of the fires .
We've kept the fires out so that it's starting to get more undulating , rougher , but the plugs will be rebuilding the plug with vegetation .
So we've got sediment loads coming in and what we're finding is we've got more and more grass , more and more stuff growing , less and less turbulence when the floods come and we're slowing down the flooding and actually cleaning the silt load out of the water so that when what comes out of the other side and goes into the chamber is actually flowing , clean now
and at the same . But on this end we're still getting these dumps of sand and silt and whatever , and that's where we're using the cattle to try and even that out a bit , because we don't really want it reverting to a swamp .
We don't want to have just a buildup of senescent fuel loads that would then burn and also burn the peat and that , and then get back to square one . So the question is can we , through putting managed large herbivores into the mix .
Can we get that vegetation that grows anyway each year to grow healthy , be pruned , do the filtering but also grow soils that are more spongy and aerated , rather than just waterlogged , swampy type wetland situations , which is the default position ?
If we hypothetically just kept fire out of here , we'd end up with a swamp , and arguably that is an option that probably would be more beneficial than what we're getting if everything burns , but it's still . You know , from a water supply point of view , a swamp would also be the draining . But I'm exploring using the cattle in there .
Not only can we do it fast and achieve the same results , but can we actually introduce a degree of profitability financial , commercial profitability into it so that we can actually be incentivized to replicate this in other areas ?
Because , ideal as it may be to have a swamp at every gorge , how do we payroll such a thing , such an endeavor , unless we somehow at least make some of the ends meet ? You know , philanthropy is one option , but you know , but where does that come from ? even Well , you know , there's just so much to do .
It's got to grow organically and it's got to be economically literally not only commercially economically sustainable . And once again , if we step back and look at how did nature work well , we realise what nature did have these various teams in the soil building process , and large herbivores do have a role in seasonally dry environments .
Now we're in the tropics , but I don't know if they've always been seasonally dry . Theoretically , if you end up with rainforests , it probably wouldn't be seasonally dry , but at the moment we have a seasonally dry landscape in a tropical setting . The question is can we use what works in other seasonally dry landscapes to start rebuilding our sponges ?
And then , once we've got them and we've got rehydrated landscapes , well , we can ask the next questions . Well , you know what other options are there ?
Yeah , yeah , really interesting .
When I was in Fitzroy I was talking to some older people about that very thing and there are stories in the First Nations folk there far more complex seasonally than wet and dry , and so there was even a kind of wet dry , if you like in our terms , which came in June this time and washed away the temporary causeways there a few times , as we've talked about
and listeners will have heard about too from the guests that I spoke to in Fitzroy . So it's interesting to say that there is some stories that map onto a more complex seasonal landscape that might be in the process of being restored here . Listeners will also be able to hear the wind sweeping through above us through the tree , can it be ?
No doubt , but it's not affecting us on the ground . It's no doubt giving us sense , as we speak , of the cover .
Yeah , we're in like a bit of a cage a cage of vegetation . So we're sitting here on the grass in the understory but the sounds coming from tree tops which would probably be about 25 to 30 meters above us . What's your guess ?
Yeah , yep , and I gathered these . This was amongst the flattening that you were greeted by when you first got here . Like , what did this look like when ?
you got here . When we got here , most of those thinner trees weren't around . They would have been the old ones . They've been around for 100 years or more . Actually , when I came here it actually looked prettier because the bush fire just gone through and you had these a few weeks earlier .
There's moisture in the ground and all the green shoots had come up and the feral cattle and donkeys had mowed it so it looked like a lawn and this huge park , huge paperbacks and giant trees and all that got character . It looked like a manicure park Interesting .
But actually in hindsight we realised it wasn't a healthy situation and it was actually that the trajectory was downwards and that really fully unfolded a few years later , on the back of the next big fires and in the upper catchments and the floods that just tore the fabric out of everything and then just started gutting what was left .
So the dynamics , the dynamics is what I can't . What I would be hesitant about doing is sort of stating what part of the dynamics is human induced , what part of the dynamics is cyclical and what part of the dynamics is actually a stable , healthy Kimberley ?
I don't know We'll still be testing for that , for a while we can just try and do the right thing and feed the soil microorganisms , keep the plants healthy , keep the animals healthy , and if I get in the process , clean water comes out . The other side it's telling me I'm doing something right .
I'm sure there's a lot of things we can do
¶ A Pilot's Eye View of the Desertification & Flooding Patterns Over the Decades
better , yeah , which is what we've spoken about before , I've spoken about with listeners before . That experience that , even last night , sleeping and hearing the water run to my right and the ranges in the distance , and surrounded by a regrowing paperback forest as well it's beautiful .
You've got an interesting perspective too , as someone who's flown this country for decades now as well . I know you've spoken to me about this before , but I don't think it's been on record what you've observed from the aerial view of this region over those decades .
Yes , so when I'm flying I'll be going across the country somewhere between 180 and 200 kilometres an hour actually about the same speed as someone who's speeding and breaking the rules on the road . But even if you're going on the road at 120 kilometres an hour , you're still going pretty fast .
But on the ground and on the roads you're looking sideways into the country and it looks . If there's ground covered , it looks green or it looks yellow or whatever , or grey hopefully not because I'm waiting for a fire .
But when I'm flying over the top I'm looking down into it and certainly what struck me over the last 35 years is , regardless of season , as I'm looking down , I'm seeing more and more bare ground and increasingly bedrock , and actually flying in and out of Kananara now is very similar to the early 90s when I was flying over towards the West Kimberley , where you're
looking down and you actually can see the sandstone skeleton coming out of the ground . We are now seeing that now here as well . It's foreshadowed through lines of trees where the cracks are and whatever , and then the trees go and it is quite fascinating .
So you still have the seasonal flush of green which from the side , looks great , and in a year like this . It looks fantastic , but when you fly over the top you realise probably the best season I've ever had and the country further away that's not being managed . Well , that's not being managed full stop is just deteriorating regardless of season .
So it's a bit trajectory still on the march .
Yeah , I've still think . We are still sanding up creeks and we're still sanding silt out into the mud flats and we are losing soil and organic matter . Either we burn or it gets blown away , but we certainly , the sand , silts and clays are no longer there to build soils and we end up with more and more bedrock appearing .
But some talking not about managed country . I'm talking about undulating water , catchment country where conventionally feasible pastoralism doesn't pay and therefore isn't being conducted .
Yeah , because this is part of your remit . Right that we can do this . In fact , your priority has been this land , doctoring , if you will , rather than exporting from here the cattle . But we can do this across a large part of the Kimberley , where even commercial pastoralism isn't viable , at least not yet .
That's right . I'm surrounded by station names where in the past , these places were turning off healthy , good animals . We have less animals and they certainly aren't turning them off and they're not healthy for a lot of the year and they're causing destruction . So there's that issue . So , yeah , we can reclaim country that we've abandoned .
But the Fitzdroy floods were very interesting because we actually have very well run pastoral operations in the Fitzdroy basin that were actually financially impacted by the destruction of the catchment areas .
So , simply because these catchment areas were deteriorating , that deterioration actually manifested itself apart from wiping out the bridge and everything , just station infrastructure that got destroyed and has to be rebuilt or fences that have to be cleaned and stock that were lost , we've had significant financial impacts in well run pastoral operations simply because we've got
this runaway flooding and deterioration happening in the unmanaged areas . So it's an interesting dynamic that's beginning to make itself felt in the pastoral arena , but also on the grocery shelves . If the bridge is cut , then our groceries have to come via the territory instead of just up the road for the purpose .
And fuel , etc . There's also the flow on the streets , let alone the communities that are still without houses to go back into .
Now I haven't heard any figures , but if Turkey Creek rebuild cost us $200 million , I'd be very surprised if there's any change at all out of half a billion dollars for the unexpected bills that the Fitzroy presented .
They are the conventional estimates at this point and I wouldn't be surprised if it's north of that . I've been in constant contact with some terrific folk at the Bureau of Meteorology as well as the people on the ground , and it's been really interesting to dig a little further into some of this story , and I'd like to do it from a couple of angles .
I'd like to do it drawing the patterns out over the decades with you as well . But firstly , just what I found through this correspondence and while I was there . So first thing is to say the reported flight height was 15.8 metres . It's been confirmed to me from the Bureau .
That was an interim reading and it was a bit whack because the gauges were getting smacked around . It was actually 14.2 metres , which is still the highest on record , by 40 centimetres or something , so still unbelievably huge and unprecedented .
The other thing they found out is or they've been out of map is that a lot of it has come through the Diamond Gorge Valley and what that meant on the ground in some parts were not everything was washed away . Some stuff was actually buried with the shifting earth and it was shifting earth that even traditional owners were saying to me they're used to .
Sediment shift through these big water movements , but not this mass of sand that came and has buried sheds , so that sort of height . They're just seeing the roof of it , let alone then trees . They found a disorienting in even being able to recognise their place , such as being the shift in earth in that time .
So what that says to me is that we had this unprecedented level of rain this is true and that it rained everywhere . It was all sorry there was no sort of .
There was this cumulative effect , I suppose , and then there was the suspicion that we might have instantly that there was less holding or diverting or spreading of that flow seemed to be true too , because the volumes that were going , the speed it was coming through , are all broken records as well , but that it brings that earth with it as well .
I guess it spoke to what you're alluding to here . So I'm curious , chris , in your experience you know , drawing the thread back through 10 years ago to that Chamberlain River flood that costs so much at Turkey Creek 20 years ago at the Salmon and Jack's Hole .
The Durak River so it's , it's , it's Fitzroy is a mighty river and I don't know it , but the pattern is the same . It just looks like a bigger brother of what I've experienced , first on Kachana , with the Salmon in 2001 , and then the Chamberlain in 2011 , which is the same time at Turkey Creek got rearranged , and then the Chamberlain .
It really looked like you had , you know , just a , a whole lot of D9s along each other , just gouging out that home , a whole valley , and literally flattening stuff . But in the process of flattening , it was filling up holes and now we didn't see sheds covered . There was no sheds there , but but there were little .
There were stands of of riparian timber that were just folded over and then covered with rubble . So it the rear , the shifting was incredible , but also where ? So those of the airs were filled in , but but then you had layers of bedrock just peeled
¶ What's Needed to Address These Challenges and Opportunities in Land Management
off . So we're talking about rocks being exposed that wouldn't have seen sunlight since humans walk the earth . So that tells me we're not talking about a cyclical event here . We're talking about a major , a major change at the geological level .
They're still speculating in Fitzroy that some of that is true as well . They're still looking into it , but the speculation is that some of that rock movement and exposure is there in that ballpark too .
But back to the , to the , the big , big earthmoving machines . What ? What we do need to remember . I mean , anybody who's washed a car on a slope may have noticed . Well , you know , depending on whether they're on the lawn or on the bitumen road , the runoff's going to be very different .
And if you run , if you wash it off on the bitumen road , well it's going to not much is going to stay there , it's going to keep going . So the the bearer our catchments are , the more likely it is that what does drop out of the sky is going to move downhill .
Now , once this movement starts , the energy is created , and it's a very simple formula it's the , it's the mass of the volume of the , the mass of the water , divided by two times the velocity , the speed squared . So there's an exponential component there .
So if there's a trend of the country becoming a bit more there , there's a tendency that more water will run off quicker anyway and have more . Each same amount of water will be more damaging every year because it's going to run off quicker and pour a big rainfall in the vent in the top of that . It's just like someone is .
You know , you're decantering , you're pouring some something into into a funnel and next thing , someone comes with a bucket of water and checks that on there as well . Well , the funnel can only take so much , but it's going to give you the output . It's just going to increase and stay for longer so that the damage increases exponentially .
So it's actually when you sit back and just run this through a spirit sheet . It's quite easy to see easy to see that it doesn't take much to happen up in the catchments , and then the downhill results a few hundred kilometers further are going to be quite impressive .
Indeed , how much of an effect on our thinking around here has this pattern been having , and I guess with the Fitzroy floods this particular year , are we seeing more of this ? Are we coming on to the thinking that we can do things differently ? Is that changing at all ?
I'm not in a position to gauge that . It would be interesting to ask the people who are on the receiving end of this flood , and especially , you know , your pastoralists , who may have had a few years of local experience , and how they would see that that flood .
I haven't talked to anybody yet , but I do know there are a few operators who definitely have got some I did get some unexpected repair bills and that they they are going to . Yeah , I've been just to see how it's too early for me to to say what's going on . I would also think we need to when , when , when these this feedback starts coming in .
And it would also be nice to get some feedback from people who were here longer , longer , many years ago , people you know like , um , mine , elizabeth , peter Lacey or , uh , john Hanwood and Fossil Downs , people who've spent decades in the country , who've experienced one or two big floods , because you know each one's different . It's just like bucking horses .
You know there's even good buck jumpers , but each one's slightly different . And the question is , is there a pattern ? Are the buck jumpers getting better while we're getting worse riders ? I don't know , but it seems to me we're getting more and more expensive bills and more and more spectacular
¶ Stations Coming Together to Explore Possibilities
damage yeah exactly .
Yeah , you've got something pretty exciting brewing locally . You were describing to me on the way up here with some neighbouring stations . What can you tell us in these early stages of what's brewing ?
the northern Kimberley land care group is an interesting group because we've got some very , very diverse country . There's not much happening apart from tourism there's not really well . There's comparatively little happening in the commercial side and there's an awful lot of rain that drops out of the sky .
There's an awful lot of costs involved of access with responding to fires or fire prevention . So I think it's fair to say that most of us are aware that we don't have all our annual expenses totally under control .
We sort of we do a lot of our budgeting with fingers crossed because we , a lot of us , aren't in the position to really prepare ourselves for fires and floods the way we would like to . Therefore , we do what we can when we can .
What I like about our land care gatherings and also the , the , the meetings that we have annually about you know the burning that's going to happen that we planted each season is , you know , we neighbours aren't getting together into one room comparing notes , getting to know each other , and there's a lot of learning happening .
This communication is improving and there's a few projects on the that have been flagged where we'd like to try out a few new ideas . Not everybody's on board , but we don't . We don't want everybody to just rush into something either . You know so it's .
So I'm always , I'm always happy that we've got a number of different experiments or trials or demonstrations going or different belief systems being tested . Like you know , what AWC is doing is it's yeah , I'm glad they there . They haven't been there that long yet but still , you know , they're gathering a lot of information .
They're looking at it from one set of lenses and I'm looking at it from a different set of lenses , my black neighbours on the other side looking at different again . And we've got tourist , you know , tourist orientated enterprises like Elquestro and that .
So you know , we've all got our different agendas for and reasons for being in the area and wanting to , to look after the area and wanting to stay . So the question is , how do we deal with common challenges like floods , bushfires , wildfires ? Yeah , so it's , it's , it's , um .
I can certainly say the communication across station boundaries between departments and cultural groups is better now than than , certainly better now than when I first arrived . Whether it's more effective , I don't know , but I think that's that it's not a matter of being too expecting too much initially .
I mean the fact that we're talking let's , let's start building trust . Let's start getting that information flowing and then let's see if we can together use that information for beneficial art , you know , for everybody's good .
But you know , if people can just use that information for their own personal agenda agendas , that's , or their own media agendas , that's fine too . But having more minds addressing the challenges and more people with skin in the game , doing things and trying things out , is a very good . I think it's a . It's a pretty good . Um , what shall I say ?
it's a pretty good start indeed , because you're being measured in your response here , because it's early days and you're working with people and we'll see how it goes , and but the important thing is the building of trust and everything you've articulated and and that comes through time and time again on this podcast too .
But you're also downright excited by the possibilities , right ?
like you know , I'm here , I'm not , I'm not in the thick of things , and but I do . I do . Thanks to the internet , I can watch the news and see what's happening other parts of the country , other parts of the world , and see what primary producers and politicians say . And then there's a lot of , there's a lot of stuff that's really disconcerting .
And you know , if you want , if you're in half half empty glass sort of person , yeah , there , there'd be reasons to be panicking , but from what I've seen , as long as the sun shines and water drops out of the sky each year , there's absolutely no reason at all to chuck in the towel .
I think there's we've we've only scratched the surface of what's possible , and I am still very , very optimistic that you know a generation of proactive Australians can reclaim country that until now has been just sitting there doing nothing and is now in the meantime .
You know all it's doing is growing bushfires and yeah , and exhausting carbon , the atmosphere and contributing to flooding , and that you know there's , there's , there's some great opportunities there just didn't making our landscapes , our rural landscapes , healthy , beginning with hydration , of course , and you know like this is where the you know there's a lot of money
being spent on biosecurity , which is good because biosecurity is important . But if you actually look closer , the biosecurity begins with water security , and I think that's an area where we can all agree . It doesn't matter what creed , gender , race we are , you know , we all , we can all . All Australians can benefit by water security .
So there's a , there's common ground that we can solidify and then , yeah , what we want to build on that ground
¶ The Water Story behind Climate & So Much Else
, what is the solid ? Well , let's let diversity play itself out , yeah .
This is something I talked at length with Judy Schwartz about a few episodes ago .
Part of her book was , of course , your Story , so we were able to weave in the Kimberley in that sense , and and Kichana and what's happening around here , and we talked about this sort of what can appear to be paradoxical to someone outside of these contexts water security , when there's water everywhere , you know in those moments , well , flood is .
That's part of it , right . Flood is not water security . No , losing your house is not water security .
Exactly , you're in a flood , you know .
Losing losing your livelihood going broke because you can't afford having to shift house , simply because you can't afford to live in that community , because rents have gone up and food prices have gone up .
you know , that's all water security .
So it's not droughts only droughts .
There's more to water security than just drug proofing . Yeah , yeah
¶ The Deep Dive on Transforming Perspectives and Building Community
, yeah . So it's a big thing , but Judy and I do flesh it out a bit . What I want to flesh out with you a little bit here is we've both . Indeed , it came out of Judy's conversation to almost the almost the premier thing I wanted to talk to her about was one part in her latest book about this , and we've gone on with it since .
In fact , you've come as far as to say this is the edge you're most interested in , because you know you've seen enough of these regenerative showcases , if you like , experiments that have been conducted over the decades and how we can go about them , the multitude of ways and perspectives that have been brought to the table , how we can go about it .
I've seen a chunk of that too , but I've also seen it in other domains where I used to work international development in cities and all that sort of stuff . So it's almost the age old question of okay , how , what's holding us back ? How do we come together to do what we well know works more ?
So it's this intermediary thing , it's what helps us reflect on ourselves , trust others , go through processes that engender that , etc . And this is something you're tuning into a lot more to write the value of the person or people's or processes . That can grease the wheels , if you will . What have you learned or seen in that domain that you think has merit ?
I'm seeing a lot of positive energy going into addressing a number of health issues and environmental issues , but they all seem to be doing better what we're already doing and to me , I think we've got to actually start stepping back a bit , not stopping what we're doing and not stopping trying to do better what we're already doing , but actually ask questions about
what are we not doing or what could we be doing or what are we stopping from happening by what we're currently doing ?
And I mean , australia has been good to me and I love Australia and my children are Australians and they want to stay here , and I've had the good fortune that I've been in other countries and I see what we have in common with other countries as well . We've got this regenerative paradigm that's been tested locally in our production areas .
But what makes us different to other parts of the world where there are more people is we have areas that we are neglecting , where we have a water problem , in the areas where we have high population densities .
By addressing the food stories and empowering people to be more discerning with their annual expenditures for foods , they can actually participate in this regenerative movement or trend that then impacts the local food production but also the local water cleaning and air and whatever .
That's great , but in Australia , where we have such a small population concentrated in such small areas , these vast areas where the water stories got out of hand simply by people making food purchases , it's not going to cut it . We actually need to somehow address the water story , and that means sensitizing people to the challenges that go beyond the food story .
And how we do that I don't know , because it's actually counterintuitive . We're told in many management courses focus on what you can do , focus on your influence areas , forget about what you're concerned about you can't do anything about . Yes , we can focus on how we purchase our food . So that's our circle of concern as individuals .
Water , well as individuals , the water story is a circle of concern , so it's intuitive today to just ignore it and hope for the best . If we stand back a little bit and look at it from a community level , it's actually now a circle of influence .
There's not a single community on the planet that doesn't have direct influence on its water story , and this is where , like , oh , let's take the Ord Valley , we can get irrigation area , everything perfect , get the food story right , like you know , have a food utopia there .
The reality is the water to grow that food has to drop out of the sky somewhere else and drops out down behind some dams , and those areas are deteriorating . We have a problem . So this is where , like a community like Kananaro in the Kimberley , where people at a community level need to realise hang on , this is in our circle of influence .
Sure , there's climate change and there's sunspots and things that we're not going to do much about , but once again , you know , do I park my car on the lawn to wash it or do I park it on the bitumen to wash it ?
And these things reflect back on climate and those other bigger things . Anyway , at least we know we're heading against the trajectory that's sweeping forth at the moment .
Even with those bigger picture things , if you do those other things that fit natural systems , you're getting on board a trajectory that works well , even with the stuff that's nominally beyond our reach .
I like the analogy of personal health . We can make life choices and , sure , walking across the bloody busy highways are life choices well , and that's not a good one . But if a comet drops out of the sky and hits you on the head , you can't do anything about it . The lightning strike , those are things that happen to you .
But choosing how long you're going to stay at a party and how you behave at a party , those are life choices . You're dietary , you're exercise regimes , and that's where I'm saying there's an awful lot we can do about personal health choices . And with the climate choices it's the same thing .
We can choose where we want to live , but we can also then choose how we want to do it . It's like , and we do it , we do it anyway . The choice of buying an air conditioner is a climate choice , but as much as buying an air conditioner , the same choice would be to have a build a house that's breezy and on stilts and have shady trees .
And , once again for the skeptics , just find a sunny day , go up north and just stand on the bitumen barefoot and then step onto the lawn and see the difference . What do we need more of if we want to be comfortable in the foot zone . We make climate choices all the time . What do I wear ? How much do I wear ?
How long did it take to take it on , put it on and off ? It's the same with our landscapes . Do we close it ? Do we protect it from the radiation ? Do we use it ? So , you know , do we prepare the landscapes so they can rehydrate ? There's all these choices we make anyway , unwittingly , that are being made for us .
Well , let's just participate in that and start being more observant about what's going on and , as a community , you know , let's empower ourselves with the knowledge of what's going on around ourselves and with some of the solutions and the beauty about this is that the solutions , from what I can tell , certainly enough .
There are enough solutions already tested and working in the industry , within the production areas that could be taken out into the broader landscapes . So we've got the skills , we've got the solutions , we've got the tools , we've got the challenge . Hey , we're a young nation , there's no need to give up hope .
It's brilliant that you articulated that that way , I think , because that then says to us OK , let's do that . But how do we do that ?
How do we come together as communities if it's not just something I do in my life as an individual make this decision , you know , cross that road or whatever , as you said , but how do we come together and do that bit well , that's easy .
Just take the car keys off a teenager who's already made an appointment to get to a party . All right , plan A doesn't work , but I still want to get to that party . You become creative and that's the thing . The bridge is gone .
But hang on , we actually what do we do and what do we do so it doesn't get taken away again or whatever , and it's just yeah , there's a . We need to be more creative and look around . The moment we start asking questions , we start looking for answers .
If we don't have to ask the questions , well , we're not gonna look for answers , even if they're staring us in the face .
I also really like how you've articulated a self-awareness about how you've engaged with people over your journey and you know what am I to do , again , hypothetically , but more to the point , how you engage with people now . This feels like an important part to it as well .
You know , we've talked about it a lot to not just have our eye on the other people in community or the way we exist at the moment , which might come with our , you know , old animosities or , jeez , current animosities maybe , or previous judgments about the way things are being done or whatever but to be able to bridge those .
And I guess , as we grow individually , that we can learn about ourselves as to how we can help bridge those , not just expect other people to bridge to us .
I've always said you know , give me ecological problems any day . It's the social problems that are hard part and actually a standard answer . When people ask me you know what's gonna happen , I say you know weather and people . I don't second guess I don't you know .
Or the best I can do is manage myself in the face of changing weather and climate and changing plans . Yeah , the people's issues seem to be the hardest , but actually they begin with yourself . And when you're young and bulletproof you probably you're looking at firing bullets . You're not really .
Yeah , you're really not looking at self and self-awareness is probably not . Yeah , you're probably not looking over your shoulders , but I noticed that skiing , you know , when I used to go skiing . You know you're looking ahead . You're that fast you take . You know you're looking ahead .
See , I knew you'd have a metaphor the last time I went skiing I was .
I realized hang on , I'm gonna look back before I do anything , because next thing I'll be run over .
So there we go . That's a great metaphor . I love it .
As you get older , it's probably not a bad idea to say just actually look in the rear of your mirror and check out your tracks .
Totally relate by the way hands up .
Since oh gee , for about over 20 years now I've been a Stephen Covey follower or scholar .
For those who are younger folk .
The seven of the Stevens . There's a lot of great management ideas out there , but Stephen sort of has a very eloquent , simple way of formulating it and he's got a six step approach and a number seven . So I'll just quickly run through them . So , and then they've got . There's a special order for a reason .
So be proactive , actually be aware of what's going on . So , once again , thinking you're bulletproof ain't probably a good start . So just realizing that you're not bulletproof and that you actually are vulnerable and that you have impacts and that this is a trail you live behind , that's probably the first step .
But then the next thing is have an end in mind , know which way you're going , and that allows you to prioritize . If you don't know where you're going , you can't prioritize . So self-awareness habit one end in mind , habit two First things . First we're prioritizing is habit three .
So that's dealing with the ego , which is something you're gonna have to live with all your life unless you well , yeah , all your life . It's that simple . So if you can manage the ego , you know what you do after dealing with other people next to you also have egos . Well then Kavi comes with the thinking win-win .
Well , I just what's in it for them , not only what's in it for you , right ? So it makes good sense , it's . I mean , that's how society is built , you know , people working together in division of labor and whatever it's .
We've got a history of that , Only we haven't really looked at it , but it's there and it needs to be there if you want to move forward .
That's very interesting because one of the , I think , valid critiques of a lot of what happens today is that it's zero-sum game . It's like banquish your opposition . But you're right , there's a lot more of that . That goes on some .
Yeah . So Kavi actually spends a few paragraphs on that . So he says when you come up with a deal , you know it's generally win and then we're not aware that actually our win is actually someone else's lose . So you very often get a win-lose deal or someone you're naive and it's a lose-win deal Right . And once again there's unhappiness .
And if people are cashed up and stubborn , well then things keep on going and you end up with a lose-lose which is the worst for all . So Kavi says hang on , there's different options here . There's a win-win or there's a simply no deal . Why go down the road where you're just going to end up with tears and disaster anyway and expenses which bites you ?
So the win-win thing is a no-brainer . But the kicker for me is Habit 5 . And that is empathic listening . That means not only understanding the other guy . You know they say there's a great Indian saying I think you know , don't judge someone till you've walked in their moccasins For a few miles or whatever .
Yeah , but even if you have Empathic listening is not about understanding the other person . It's actually doing that , but Doing it in a way that the other person actually feels understood , and that's the hard part .
That's where people like me , just have to shut up and Ask the right questions and you know really , or you know feedback and confirm and actually find out that we are understood . And once that's happened , well then you can . You can go to the next level and that is you know , I've established trust and you can actually synergize . You don't ?
You know , you can , you can start doing new things . It's and then the habit seven you can apply that all the time . That's just that's sharp in the saw . You know . You brings a example if you want to . You know if it's , if it's going to take you and now I sawing that tree , you probably need to spend four hours sharpening the saw .
Because if you haven't spent those four hours sharpening the saw , it's probably going to take you ten or more hours . So sure you know to get the tree done you . Just when people say I'm too busy , Well , it's generally saying well , I haven't got time to sharpen the saw .
All right , two things I want to say to that . When you talked about the kicker number five , it reminded me of my old mentor , frank Fisher , who used to take you know the golden rule do unto others as you'd have them do to you . You'd say no , no , do unto others as they'd have done to themselves .
And it when you said the empathic listening is about making that . Having them feel understood , not just for you , having an idea of what's walking in their shoes might be like , but having them feel like you've understood that . I think that's some of what Frank was getting at too , so I really heard that .
The second thing is when you ended up sharpening the saw . The saw bit Reminded me of the podcast you put me on to that we spoke about a bit this morning , because I listened to it just this morning With John Henwood , who you mentioned at the top of this conversation as well , I spent 50 years managing fossil down more grew up in the area just like
¶ Cultural Wisdom and Connection to Land
you know , that's right .
There's a wealth of local knowledge and well more than not knowledge . This is when you grow up an area , like John did , you know there's . There's the knowledge you know , bought through joy and pain and all experience , but there's also intuition , which we , you know , which you just see him do things or whatever . Well , he does things , you know that's .
That's something . Yeah , it's something we don't understand , but but yeah , it's something we don't respect either .
It's so sorry for interrupting . No , no , I'm stalled because I'm taking in the gravity . I think this is huge what you've just said . And and he did talk like that . I picked that up when he was talking like that . And he would say things like the animals will tell you .
So it's probably someone like that who's an elder . Yes , in his own right , it's actually , it's not the vast knowledge , it's the wisdom , and that that wisdom incorporates the intuition and it's enveloped . Well , intuition just plays and the distillation of the knowledge and just yeah , there's a , there's an area there .
I think that's so important that that's integrated in Well , any relationship , but certainly to our , in our relationships to the land , and if we want to regenerate , which is , yes , the challenge , that a few would dispute .
That's right and you know , I see it in you too , frankly , and I see it in others I've spoken with , in the elders . Essentially and it is something of what I think you alluded to it before as well what we lose when these people are Either not here anymore or off the land .
But keeping connected to that Over the duration it seems to be another really important part of , you know , coming together as communities , if you will is Having that in the figurative room .
Well , it's , it's , I think it's the . It's actually the building material of the culture , where the cement the people who come and go and you can fix the , you know the , the grout falls off and you put back on .
But the actual , real building material is that , that wisdom , the cultural wisdom , that accumulated wealth that you can't measure with dollars and cents and cash flow .
Well said , the other reason I wanted to mention him because I was blown away that his story incorporates is adoption of rotational grazing in the early 80s and that really , in that sense , he was probably the first in this state to do that and , if not , the country .
I don't even know if , looking back on it , yes , we'll say rotation grazing he probably uses those words now . What I find fascinating is the fact that he was doing what needed to be done and once again , I think it was his connection and intuition that allowed him to do the right things .
He's the terminology of rotational grazing , and then the Processes and the analysis of that . That only comes later . It's he's , he's , he's in touch and he's being guided , or , as a , he's just part of .
He's got a relationship to the land and it's a functioning relationship and intuitively , he was doing what it needed to do to improve that function or maintain that function , and that's that can only be done by having that connection and if we keep on serving those connections .
It's like putting out someone for adoption every time , and it's that doesn't mean adoptions . About a thing you know , depending where they come from , but there's always this break and this component of reinventing , whereas if it's functional , you don't have to go through that process , and that's where you know communities that are too itinerant .
We don't have that , and so so there's a . There needs to be some sort of a say , some sort of core building material that has the duration and the substance to withstand Adversity . And then , yeah , if the grout falls out , well , you can repatch it , but you know you don't have to reinvent the structure Structural integrity .
Yeah , because there was this other story too , wasn't there about ? You know , we talked , we started talking about Not cleaning your car on the footpath , on the pavement .
I'm not saying put a lot of soap and degrease on the lawn , by the way .
We could extrapolate the metaphor to all lengths , but we'll trust . Listen , we've got the point . The henwood humps , you know , the so-called henwood humps that that was his old man too , wasn't it that came up with that ?
I forget , no , but I know they were effective . Yes , and someone had thought the same thing . Well , that's Africa these and Africa .
You said that's right , but they didn't know this and and insured the same response Exactly , it's just being connected , realising what's . It's interesting , isn't it ? But in fact there's a theory around this too . I think it's called the Hundred Monkeys .
Well , it could be morphic resonance too , yes . But if it's going to happen in different parts of the world at the same time .
And you don't know . Yeah , yeah , I even learned some of this around the Mayan civilization when I was living with those people in in Latin America , that some of the stuff that was happening there that was happening elsewhere but there was no known anyway , interaction across those oceans and lands , that's very interesting too To think of a layer we don't know .
Yeah , well , that's as someone said and I don't know who said it is to achieve the Socratic insight which is I don't know how many thousands of years old you know . I know that I know nothing .
We need to know so much more before we realise that we know nothing , and that makes it so hard in a busy world for people to get to the appreciation that we really know nothing . And that's why I keep on . That gives me the optimism , you know , when I realise , hang on , we haven't even scratched the surface of self-healing .
If we just stop shooting ourselves in the foot , healing can happen . And then , all right , let's stop shooting ourselves in the foot and then maybe we can get . You know , when you stop shooting . Well , you know , the nurses can't even do it even faster .
But you know , let's just stop doing the things that we actually realise aren't taking us , are taking us the wrong way .
That alone is a great start , indeed indeed . And when I think about that , and I relate it back to you know the young fella going out . And what did you do ? You took the keys off . Took the keys out of the car yeah , you know , the young fella like me , at the time he didn't know what they didn't know .
Right , you'd find a way , I did , I can tell you I found ways and that's cool in a respect . But you know , yeah , there's certain growth that holds you in bed as stead as you go .
And you know , we talked early , early in this week , of us being out here this time about a bloke who I've looked into a bit over the journey and I only recently re-listened to a podcast of Robert Keegan who has his five .
I meant to look up what the actual language around this was , but it's essentially he's become this adult development expert and he doesn't even really go with that term . It's it's more about human consciousness and and transformation through the journey of life , which of course isn't linear , but broadly .
You know , you're dealing in these lower levels of his five in younger years .
And then level three is where this podcast took off from , which is the socialized mind , when you start to have that empathy and you can think of you , as you know , beyond this me , this bundle of flesh and bone and brain , and think about you too , and then this community we're in , so that that's a big achievement . The socialized mind .
The downside of the socialized mind is that you can get us and them about our tribe versus that tribe . And so there's a . The level four would be the self authorship , which I really like , that language where you can depart from the tribe to a health ideally healthy extent and chart your own path .
You know , some of the stuff we've talked about here I think relates to this . And then there's a self transformation is level five . So it's a whole other kit and he'll go into it in depth .
I won't do that here , but he broadly hypothesizes that as a society and and broadly speaking across the world , our challenge at the moment is moving from three to four . But there's limitations around four as well that you get him to embroil in your own ethos that you've established .
So it's not that one's better than the other , it's not that you ditch lower levels when you go high .
It's not linear in that way , but it's a way of understanding that I think is helpful , particularly when we talk about how communities can come together better and how we can look at the ways we can either help or hinder that as individuals too , because he'll go so far as , to say , is the instances where people have been looking to help worst case push people
to higher levels If they're dissatisfied , for one reason or another , with the way we're going as a collective .
I mean , this is sounding familiar , right , many of us would lament the way we're going as a collective , but that if there is push , or if there is perceived push , if people feel pushed coming back to what we're talking about , about your Covi's list there then the reactions can be even violent , even lethal , and he'll have a number of examples to paint this
picture . This stuff really matters and or , but whichever way you like to cut it , there are ways of us understanding this and going about engaging people , and you talked about yours
¶ Self-Mastery, Engaging Across Divides and Finding Shared Direction
. Covi , was a big framework for you . There are ways we can learn that we well know helping gauge each other across various divides that we might speculate about and have theories about that . Don't end up in those violent backlashes . It seems to me really important also to not lose heart , right , if you understand that that's why they're a violent backlash .
But it's mastering those , that early personal stuff to a level where actually your ego isn't dependent on the other person buying in . And I forget who wrote in a one of the little bits of wisdom I came across as in a marketing thing . You know , when people say no , this is a marketing , I'm just . They say no means not .
No , no means not yet they're not ready for it . No , that may . You know , there's some things I'll never be ready for . But it's just . You know , very often it is someone's not ready what my mother had a great saying you know , there's no use answering the question , it's not being asked .
You know , you basically say , even if you've got the solution , people don't ask the question . What's the good of even the answer ? I guess that's where we are impatient and well , that's it .
That's it . Someone else said I can't remember who it was , but it was someone of note . We need to hurry up and slow down .
That's an old , old , more hasteless speed . It is a Latin one , a festinalente . Yeah , it's a . We're talking a few thousand years of wisdom there . Well , this is the thing .
So when we slow down to a gallop , we'd say there you go , when we can appear like amount of times I've heard over my you know sustainable development journey over my decades , in that it's a A , b or C thing is a step in the right direction . You know , because we know it's not it , but it's a step in the right direction .
And these will be instances where I'm not convinced it's a step in the right direction at all . And an up saying one day to someone who I liked , you know this was a respectful thing . If you're in a hurry , best not to go the wrong way , yeah , yeah . So it's not as simple as just grabbing on to something . It really is . Take there , go slow , he's up .
Another one I heard Joel Salton quote twice . Apparently it's a Chinese proverb . You know , if you keep going down the road you're on , you'll end up where you're headed . And so when I look at the binoc , you take out the binocus and look at where we're headed . I say , hang on , do you really want to go there ?
You know , doesn't anybody else want to look through these binoculars ? Please , please , have a look through If someone's too busy heading down that road . How do you do that ? I don't know . Podcasts like yours help .
So do I mate , so do I . This relates to something else of great
¶ Reframing Rest in Holistic Management - And Life in General - for Inspired Breakthroughs
interest to me . You know we're talking about holistic management often in these spheres of work , and certainly Ellen Savry has been a big inspiration to you over the journey too .
But you said to me the other day I think it was the first time you'd said it to me and I want to relate this back to where we've just left the thread but you said you don't like the word and you don't use the word rest when it comes to moving cattle off a certain part of the terrain . Here Can you talk ?
to that person ? Yes , and I think that probably first dawned on me . I would have been in the early 2000s .
So I became an Ellen Savry scholar and I still am passionate and I started using my animals , the animal energy , but getting those animals together , working them as a tight herd , and just the small herd that I had it ended up being the equivalent of about a set of the . It was 70 animals that I started working with .
So what I've noticed very quickly is that the physical work that they did was absolutely matched by the 70 horsepower tractor that I had . So you know , cow power , horsepower , biological power versus fossil fuel power there's , I realize , you know it's energy we're talking about energy here that we're harnessing . So that was fascinating .
But then , on the back of that , within a few years , I realized hang on , the dung beetles that start working after the cattle move on , do as much . So all of a sudden we've got that microbial horsepower .
So like technically saying , oh , we're resting in the country , well , nah , hang on , the big animals move off and then these little fellas start , and these are just the dung beetles that we see , let alone all the biomass that we don't see . And in a healthy environment . The biomass underground is more than below .
So I'm saying , hang on , it's just , we've got a shift , we've got a change of shift here . We've just got the big boys you know the middle level management , have come through , said , all right , you guys do all this , now get to work and we're going to go and we'll get the next lot going . You know it's , it's rest .
No , on the contrary , you know we've got vegetation and the microorganisms getting into gear , kicked in , literally kicked into the gear through this process . So it's yeah I hate the word rest , it's sure . You know there are cases .
You know if you've got an accident victim , you know you drag them off the road so they don't get run over , and then you give first aid and then you intensive care or whatever , but ever .
But once it's functional , you don't rest you , you start getting that ecological motor going and you get these three teams humming , you know , and working for each other and it's yeah . So so rest is a it's to me , it's . You know the basket case is near rest and occasionally and , and you know , intensive care .
But yeah , once , once , once you've got a functional system going , it's management and yeah , I love that metaphor running itself , Changing , changing shift , and geez just speaks to , even when we think we're doing nominally good things that we can still be so instrumentalist and anthropocentric like us as the center of the universe .
Hey , yeah , it's good for the male ego , that's probably good for the , the female egos , that sort of work the way up the corporate matter . It's just an ego thing either way .
That's right . It's really illustrative of that . And then what gets really interesting to me is you had to tie it back into the theory we just left off is the book I mentioned to you in this context , called rest .
That's become a bit of a Bible for me , came out a bunch of years ago because it was applying that to humans , but where rest was essentially nominally , where we switch off work .
But that actually that's when the magic kicks in , if you will , where your subconscious , your great bolts of creativity or or breakthrough in something you've been working at , they just sort of pop up .
And this book's about the science of that , but also the stories of that in really famous people over the journey , whether they be creative or scientific well , actually scientific is creative too when it's done well .
But whether they be writers , scientists , musicians , they all had this pattern where they'd work super intensively for a period of time four , five hours a day , and then stop that , get physically active , switch off the mind . You know , nominally switch off the mind , rest the mind , be social , get some space , lie down , whatever .
But that that's when the rest of that's when the shift happens , that the change of shift happens in the body , in the mind and the real genius of the whole .
If you like , punctuates the situation the way you described that . I haven't read the book , but maybe that author's gonna write a second book called Balance , and Balance doesn't have to be balancing on the spot . You can have a dynamic balance , dynamic balance . Go on , talk more to that . It's like a spinning top , there's enough energy there it's .
It looks like it's resting , it's stable and everything . And get the balance right . Get the balance right between sleep and activity , between grazing and , yeah , just different different species , you know , introduce sort of micro shifts or whatever . Just capitalising the complexity that nature would throw at us anyway , instead of looking at it as a as a threat .
Understand it's just a change of balance . And how do we rebalance and focus
¶ A Few Closing Thoughts
on the balance ?
That was award-winning regenerative pastoralist Chris Henggeler . We turned our attention to the donkey situation next and gave it the time it needed . So that'll be part two of this episode out next week . Meantime, for more on Chris, Kachana Station and our previous conversations on the podcast , see the links in the show notes .
I've put some photos on the episode webpage too . A nd I realised I didn't explain what Henwood Humps were . They were akin to Peter Andrew's work and so many others now, slowing water movement down and re-dispersing it across broader landscapes . I've also put a link to the big news of the change in land tenure that happened at El Questro late last year .
The ABC article on it opened like this: the famous Kimberley tourism precinct at El Questro will be returned to traditional owners and the cattle station will become a nature reserve after an unprecedented deal . And on the AWC , sadly , their wonderful Mornington Camp is still closed due to damage from this year's floods .
We might imagine the day when they withstand the next one because our regional land management has become so sound , combining the best of all knowledges to restore the plugs and filters as we see them at Kachana . Finally , the Reconnection Festival is just a few weeks away now in the northern rivers of New South Wales .
It'll feature Zach Bush , Charles Eisenstein and a range of brilliant artists , performers and other Aussies in conversation with each other, and me as MC . I'm hopeful Chris Henggeler will be there too . Podcast subscribers you get a 10% discount Just see my recent posts on Patreon for the discount code .
A nd subscribers also get behind the scenes footage , pics and other things as we get around the country . So if you have been thinking about becoming a subscriber , I'd love you to join us . It's with thanks , as always , to this community of generous supporters that this episode was made possible . Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration .
com forward slash support . And thanks again . Thanks also for sharing the podcast when you can think of someone who might enjoy it and for continuing to rate and review it on your favoured app . It all helps . The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden off the soundtrack to the film Regenerating Australia . My name's Anthony James .
See you next week and thanks for listening .