178. Navigating the Emotional Echoes of the Referendum: Heidi Mippy, on the Voice to Parliament & beyond

Oh damn , I can feel myself already getting emotional , and this is the thing , is this issue has really got me so emotional at the moment .

She has poetically called herself an author , architect of life , consultant , mother and lover of sand between her toes . She's been powerfully described by others as a pioneer in Aboriginal education support and community development . For over 25 years Heidi's been leading and sharing in many brilliant success stories, and with such integrity , smarts and spirit .

I've been fortunate to count her as a friend in recent years . A nd you might remember hearing her on this podcast in episode 143 from that amazing day at the Haggerty Farm late last year . Well , as this week's podcast neared , along with the coming weekend's national referendum on the Indigenous Voice to Parliament , it was Heidi I wanted to reach out to .

Now, for those who aren't across this , including international listeners, on referendum day this Saturday , Australians will be asked to vote yes or no to a proposed law: to alter the constitution to recognise the first peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice . The question will be: do you approve this proposed alteration ?

That Voice would be an independent representative body for First Nations peoples , advising the Australian Parliament and the government on matters that affect them . So I'd been thinking about doing an episode specifically on the Voice amongst so much reflecting and learning in recent months .

I'd asked Rachel Perkins after the Kimberley Road show on the referendum went through Derby while we were there . She said yes , the land council were going to arrange it , but they never got back to me .

Of course I've been featuring what I'd been hearing from Aboriginal people around WA in recent episodes , but come last weekend I had a growing feeling that the sort of conversations I'd been having weren't being reported or heard much . The ones that are far from straightforward , that speak to lived realities , urgent needs , great successes and even greater opportunities .

The ones that are depolarising , respectful and open . A nd ones that aren't trying to convince anyone to vote a particular way . Having just got back to Perth , I had no idea what Heidi was thinking about the referendum . There was no predetermined agenda .

S o I hope this very personal and raw conversation adds something to your deliberations too, as the referendum approaches, a nd beyond

. Here' s Heidi .

What's bringing it to you at this point ?

I've noticed that in the past few weeks I've really withdrawn from conversations around the voice , engagements around the voice that you know . I've got a real anxiety or nervousness about the day after , like what does that look like ? What conversations am I going to have to have with myself , with my family , with my kids , with my friends , with my colleagues .

I can't just rock up to an AGM as a board member and go , oh okay , let's vote in a new committee member , like it just doesn't feel right and and I feel like there's just going to be too many , like for me , there'll be an elephant in the room and this is the level of investment that this referendum is bringing about for people like myself , aboriginal people

but it just isn't for for other people and it's clear . It's clear that there isn't that investment for other people because other people are just not planning their life for the day after or the week before .

You know what I mean , and and to have to remind people of that , or to say to people I'm sorry I can't come to this on that day because I'm protecting myself or or giving myself some self care , is like people almost stop and thinking like what is she talking about ? Yeah , so anyway , it's a . It's just a tricky space to be in .

It's going to be different either way the day after . And coming to speak with you tonight , then it's like you said to me , I'm not sure what angle you're after in it , and I said I'm not after an angle at all . I feel like there are multiple angles and it's worth going over . And you felt that too .

You felt like these are important conversations , but then I sort of felt like , coming in , that I'm bound to feel like we might drift across some of those angles as opposed to even having them laid out one by one , you know , because it's just so complex and intermeshed and with such deep ramifications and resonances as you've just described .

But perhaps let's just go straight to that point that we exchanged , by text coming in , what has struck you most as someone who's really sort of on tender hooks about October 15th . What are you observing most , and perhaps even that you wish was different or you've been trying to encourage in people ?

Oh damn , I can feel myself already getting emotional , and this is the thing is , this issue has really got me so emotional at the moment . The reason I feel I haven't been able to be honest is and you only need to have a look at my resume about the things that I've done over my life .

I've worked youth work , disabilities , child protection , policing , emergency services .

I've been frontline in community for a long time and therefore working against and I say against government not doing the right thing , not funding us to deliver programs and services to our mob the way that we know they need to be done , and we've had closing the gap around now for a very long time . We've had empowered communities around .

We've had all these initiatives at SICK , other things that were designed or meant to be put in place to ease this disadvantage that my people and our people as First Nations people in this country and the first people of this country face .

So I'm not coming into this referendum , blind , like I'm coming in really well experienced , really tired , really well informed about what government could have done to listen , to empower our voices , to make changes , to elevate the voices of our younger generation , of our leaders .

And I'm wondering why are we having to go to a referendum to create an advisory body ? And I get the security that we have , Like I know that this time it's different . I know it's different because we have security in the constitution that it can't be pulled out from us like at SICK . But that's the only advantage I see in this is that security .

I don't see any power . I don't see any justice , I don't see any control , I don't see any self-determination in this advisory group . I've seen them come and go in my lifetime and I'm not even an old person . There's plenty of people older than I that have seen a lot more than I have .

So I want to say to people this is hard like , hard to trust , it's hard to believe in , it's hard to accept that this is all we're getting . But the minute you start to have that conversation open , that dialogue about this isn't good enough or we deserve better .

I'm seeing that we're so polarized in the community now that it's an us and them , and I've never been the them in the us and them . So that's what I mean about . I know I give such long answers all the time , AJ , but it's so hard to . That's what I mean by it's so hard , to be honest .

So I know other people who haven't quite worked at that frontline who go , oh , this is it's to me . To them I feel like this is that knight in shining armor . They're coming over the hill and this is it , this is the answer , this is the savior .

But I wonder if that's a bit because they're a bit naive and haven't perhaps been on the journey of others who have been a little bit closer on the ground , who have felt maybe that trauma and pushed those fights a little bit closer than perhaps they have . So yeah , it just worries me , it really worries me .

I just see a lot of people invested a lot into this simple yes and no and I worry about people's mental health and well-being the day after , because a yes and no is not going to actually uplift our people and , regardless of whether the yes or no gets what the outcome is , there is a hell of a lot of work to come , regardless of the outcome .

Either way , that is building what this looks like , or repairing , responding to and managing the expectations that have been built in the process of this largely biased yes campaign .

That's life really for everyone , but also the workers , the teachers , the social workers , the agencies and so forth and just the mothers .

I've seen town hall meetings but I've had private conversations as well and , interestingly , even after the Kimberley Roadshow , as it was called , by the year 23 mob and Rachel Perkins comes through and , yes , I've so much respect for her families , history and story and her , so it was really interesting that even coming out of that , some of the people I'm talking

to weren't convinced . But they're people like you , you know . They're people who know what needs to be different . They're people who have done like you , they've done the stuff that works , like you've seen what works , you've done it and the opportunities been there for a long time for people like me and our governments to hear that and back that in .

And so I wonder there are a couple of ways to go from there , perhaps to start with Heidi , to sort of unpack this a little bit .

And perhaps the first thing is that amongst a lot of the people who are sort of overtly campaigning for yes who again I really respect and appreciate they're couching it in the broader Uluru statement that this was the said first thing . Voice treaty , truth . This was the first port , of course . So no , it's not meant to be so the case goes .

It's not meant to be the empowerment and the self-determination yet , but it's the avenue to be heard , to get there . You've heard this , obviously . How does that go down for you ? What is the Uluru statement mean , I suppose , to you ?

Even you know and again , I don't want to take away from those who were involved in the process of the Uluru statement from the heart but I do know that only a small number of selected people were given the opportunity to attend from Nyong'an community and I will only speak to at the minute now for what that looks like for the Southwest or for Nyong'an community

and with the largest cultural bloc in this country . So to send a very small delegate to that delegation I don't is far from representative of the Nyong'an community in terms of seeking endorsement from Nyong'an around Uluru statement from the heart .

They had one follow-up community meeting in Perth when they returned , one meeting that I know had less than 40 people attend . That is not representative .

So I do want to acknowledge that there is some absolute fact to the information that all the statements being put out from people about that the yes campaign or the government's campaign around that this represents the majority of Aboriginal people is potentially skewed , Because I've seen this . I've seen this firsthand here and out in my community here .

That's not to say that we wouldn't support this . I'm not saying that that wouldn't be the outcome . What I'm saying is that that wasn't the process . Therefore , it wasn't the outcome .

So if we really want to talk about grassroots movement and that these things are representative of the people , then the processes need to be involving the people , and this process wasn't that . It wasn't that at all .

There were a lot of questions that were asked and I know I've attended so many of these sessions with the voice long before we knew there was going to be this referendum , asking questions for the detail , and I never got this .

It was only until recently that I received detail around what this voice was , and this was when we got the information around the committee or the voice , the body that may be requested to provide information to the government , which may consider the information that they provide , and that's when I was like , okay , well , what even is this ?

What is that process that's been undertaken when we're still struggling today to sit in truth telling spaces and talk about what it is that's occurred in this country ? And now we're relying a 97% of the population , a conscious vote of 97% of the population , to give us some pretend rights .

And this is the bit that I feel really uncomfortable with , because I can have this conversation with you and I know other people will listen to it later To you , I feel it's a safe place and I can say AJ , I don't think this is good enough , I would like to have more , but what I want everyone else to do is just vote yes , it's not going to cause any

harm to you , it's actually not going to cause any harm to you . But you know what ? I want more than this . I want more for my children , I want more for my grandkids . So this is why I find it really hard to give people advice , or you know , because so many people come to me normally on these political matters and things are hi , can you ?

You know what's your thoughts on this ? And I'm like , oh my God , I just don't know how to say this in simple terms now because it's so complex , but really it's literally out of our hands .

It is out of our hands , but what we need to be doing is sitting down in spaces , like you and I have sat in times before , and to start talking about truth telling in this country .

Let's actually talk about why we are where we're at and start to acknowledge these things , and then maybe we might get a step closer to a treaty and the other things that this whole Uluru was really pushing towards to begin with , because essentially that's where we're meant to be going is to the treaty , conversation or process .

So it's saying something you know . When you say that you're relying on us now in this situation where it's like what will the rest of the country do for us ? It reminds me of a statement that's been hovering in my mind throughout this time .

It's partly because I really studied civil rights movements a lot at one point and Martin Luther King was amongst that and he said something like it's not for white people to tell us when we deserve justice . I got that echoing in my head .

So for me , I guess , knowing the ingredients we're after , and I guess where the Uluru Statement reflects , that ultimately , treaty and Truth are part of the bundle and you know you said it before it's not going to harm you . So vote yes on the weekend , but that that's not the end of the road .

I'm wondering , heidi , is it is what you're saying that , given that it's what's on the table . Do we say yes to this as part of what will hopefully play some function towards more people hearing what's needed to be done and hearing truth processes and how to run truth processes and how to truly reach communities to get treaty processes ?

And is it given it's what's on the table ? Can it be the avenue to that or one of the additional helping factors to that ?

Tell me what is stopping the government from allowing that to happen now ? There is nothing .

happen . Now , andri , the Australian government has not even implemented United Nations rights of Indigenous people in this country and has the world looking in , going what are you doing to your First Nations people ? So that's kind of the stuff I struggle with . I'm going okay , well , yeah , so it could be .

It could be , aj , it could be that this is the starting point for that . This could happen today . This could have started yesterday . This could have , in fact , started 10 years ago . So I guess maybe it's a thing with age that I'm just becoming cynical . I don't know , but I'm going . Well , tell me why this is going to be any different .

Why is an advisory body of people going to make this any different to the things that we've had in the past ? The voices that we have today that are pushing for all of the things that the government is saying today are really important . Vote yes for these reasons . Actually , just do this right now , because it's the right thing to do .

You know , that's the bit that I don't get . I was like do you even hear what you're saying in your statements , minister ? Whoever you know , without naming them .

Because I'm like you know , kind of contradicting yourself here , because you're not doing this in your government , funding your procurement policies , all of your funding out to whether it be our bush food , which we've talked about before .

Around you know less than 2% of Aboriginal participation in our own bush food industry , whether it be this or any other program in Australia .

The fairness , the equity is not there for First Nations people in this country and that is stuff that could simply be corrected with the push of a pen in Australian government today , but it could also be taken away that quickly too right .

So , that's what can happen , the voice you can't rip the rug out from under its feet . But it has no power . It has no influence unless it's given . So I see it as the ration days , the flour and sugar day . That's literally how I see it . Is the days of my old people like here's your flour and sugar . Just do what we want you to do .

That's how I see that . I don't see it as being enough . I don't see it as respectful for the journey that our people have been on in this country Overall this time . I think we deserve more . I know that we are capable of leading , of absolutely leading , and determining our future in a far more powerful way than this .

As I understand it , really strong , well-performing . Amongst its strengths , everybody agrees it needed a bit of reform , but amongst its strengths seemed to be the regional boards and input . Are these the things where the voice isn't equivalent ?

The Nyong'an nation is the size of Victoria and now WA , as you know , is a big state and the Nyuungar Nation is only a small part of that state .

So if you then have a structure where two people per state and our nation is the size of Victoria , how do we see a structure that is fair or representative for Western Australia If we have this with every single rep body , national for Western Australia all the time ?

We have this all the time and we are constantly having to feedback , no matter what area it is that we're talking about , that Western Australia must be considered differently . We're half the size of the country .

We can have fire , flood and cyclone in one day in our state and I just don't think that this is a fair or reasonable structure that's been proposed and I don't think it's anywhere near representative like At Sik was and the expertise of At Sik as people came through . I don't think it was a popularity contest .

I think it was people who came with skills and experience and they put it to community and that's how they were elected on that skill and experience and knowledge .

To get what could be got in that fashion , to have that peg in the ground at least , and then obviously , yeah , go for what really needs to happen , which is almost , in a sense , you know , with its improvement , sure , and it's 18 years on , so we know a lot more today too , but a reinstatement of what was before , at least of the stuff that worked before .

You know , if we say that needs to happen and to be conducting its truth processes and everything else that you know , treaties and everything else that the statement envisages as well , I imagine that might have been some of the rationale to lock in something of a foundation . Would you subscribe to that ?

It just reflects the budget or the system and the legislation the white legislation that exists in this country and then we just have to find ways to work around that right . And this is where conflicts and workarounds happen .

But I have to say that you know , our life expectancy is much , much shorter than anyone else , so we've been losing our old people at a much quicker rate than other people and we've reached this point now in our community where our knowledge holders and our language holders and the really those important living libraries are not gonna be living for too much longer .

So I just don't think that we have to constantly be given these solutions where we've got to wait for such a long time , when we just don't have the time anymore to .

We just can't afford to keep waiting for these 10 , 15 year processes that are sexy for someone to swallow at the time and then be patient and work with that , while we lose people who have knowledge and expertise along the way , or people that won't be alive to see the end product . I think it's unfair to expect us to keep playing that game .

You know , we see old people in native title processes that last 15 years that aren't alive at the end of them to see the benefits of that native title claim . And so you know I feel like I might be coming across a bit negative here , and I'm not usually that negative person but at some point we've got to say no , this is not good enough .

We need to act quicker . We need quicker and better outcomes for our people and let's actually work to those now .

Let's find a way to work to those now so that people who are alive today that are one conversation away from that first contact along the Swan River can actually see that before they go to the end product , they go to their graves , that the world that they're leaving behind is actually a pretty special place for their grandkids . You know what I mean .

Like I think that's an important legacy .

In a sense it makes me think about the part of the conversation let's be kind call it conversation out there has been around whether a group of this is true , of ATSIC too right , whether a particular group of people should be singled out , as it were , for special treatment .

You know , this sort of thing Is that divisive , to be putting some things in place for First Nations , not for other cultures , that sort of thing . I mean , there's so much you could say about that , about how divisive it not doing things it is , but more I want to get to the point of .

It feels to me less ambiguous that First Nations recognition can be enshrined in the Constitution , that if we're having a Constitution for this continent now called Australia , that that cannot pretend to be . What is it ? 122 years of federation , but yeah , that 230 of colonization ? It can't pretend to be that short . Is that true for you ?

Do you imagine that that is an incontrovertible ? It is something we should do , and at the earliest voice aside , almost , you know , but just to have the framework that we coexist in in this country . Have that , or would you suggest that sort of again down the track .

I think that was significant and pretty special and the rest of the country needs to follow . But we can't even get the whole country to change the date right , like we can get a few local governments to do it .

But then someone did suggest that the Southwest settlement verges on one .

And when we were going through the settlement process and I was working at Swales Creek at the time , there was a student who did a PhD on the settlements and also said it was the closest thing to a treaty Absolutely not . We extinguished our native title in exchange for a package of benefits . It's nothing like a treaty at all .

So I do get a little bit annoyed at those conversations that I think they need to be separate . I think what Nyungars did was quite visionary in looking at self-determination .

So the economic packages , the joint land management , the housing , the land estate , the Nyungar Recognition Act , like they're all great things , but it's not a treaty and the treaty is a different conversation . Two be had and it's one to be had across the whole nation .

I think we're sitting where we are with looking to be that we're leaning towards heavily towards the no-than-a-yes at present is probably around the timing of the Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act and the amendments to that that rolled out in July and the confusion that came with this across our state .

The timing for that , with this particular campaign , has been disastrous for this state . It caused confusion , it caused division .

But we're looking at two things native title act and the Heritage Act , both around the same time really crappy pieces of legislation that pretend to protect interests of Aboriginal people , people saying that it's divisive to put Aboriginal people in the Constitution . There's over 126 acts in WA alone written to control Aboriginal people .

How much more divisive can you get than that ? This is where I think we just need to be talking more about the reality of what in WA .

The context for us is of what we're dealing with trying to navigate through legislation such as this that is not working and hasn't been working for us , causing confusion for not just us but for many other people and , sadly , I think , it's going to impact on the position of the referendum or the outcome of referendum for the whole of the nation , in fact .

I feel like , in a way , heidi you know we briefly alluded to it before and some of your experiences emphasising how much of what you've been involved in , let alone others that I've seen and witnessed , that has worked incredibly well , had enormous outcomes and have been either stopped , defunded , ignored .

But those experiences and successes are there and I sort of want to come back to it because I guess you know , having laid out more of what needs to happen in general and knowing that this is leaving like the cultural heritage build to barclay , leaving more people possibly feeling like , oh well , if not these things , then what works ?

People who would say and I do hear it- you know . If only there was something we could do . It's so entrenched , you know .

So I feel like it's worth revisiting and actually putting some flesh on the bones for people who might not get a glimpse of what works , what has worked , what is working , what can work , if we want to get beyond the trenches and connect in the ways that we're talking about in this conversation to make this the stuff that will make a difference happen .

We might absolutely have the people with the determination to be able to push what we want and push hard and make sure that that may be listened to , becomes a we will be listened to and that those proposals are heard , that proposals are funded and resourced , because I have a lot of confidence in the majority of leadership in our First Nations community across

Australia . So I just want to acknowledge that , first and foremost , putting some flesh on the bones . Look , I think there's a number of things already happening in other states and at the Commonwealth level .

We , you know , looking at at the amount of funding that is said to be going towards Aboriginal communities but is going to largely to other organizations that are said to be doing service delivery to Aboriginal communities , looking more closely at that and putting money on the ground properly to Aboriginal corporations and I don't mean just any Aboriginal corporations .

I'm not saying like , give it to just anybody and trust that they'll do it . I'm saying give it to those that can say that they can deliver , that get , that have put put up a good enough case to deliver a program , because those that have said they can and have delivered in the past and have the contacts on the ground can absolutely do that .

Like there is no one better place to deliver place based solutions and those people in their communities . And we know that those , those programs work because we've seen this time and time again Every time that government funds it , it works . Funding gets pulled . We go again . Program gets version two , it works really well . Funding changes .

We go program version three , version four , and it's just reinvented every time and it has to change every time . So you know the solutions are there , the people are there . That's the same people still living in their community because it's the workers who move in and fly and rotate around .

So I think it's that accountability and it's government who are funding this stuff , it's government who are pushing this money into these organizations . So I think that's one of the things .

I think the other thing that's positive is around the review of how the trust monies are spent and looking at , you know , the people that are swallowing up , I guess , some of the trust monies and how that money that's not really going to the ground or to the people more effectively . So I think there's some things in place .

You know , the truth telling commission in Victoria . There's leadership . There's leadership happening in our communities that are showing really good programs , aboriginal controlled organizations , you know , ranger programs that are delivering great things , family and children's services that , like there's so many great things happening . The issue is around .

I think the issue here is around that continuity of funding and the security of funding , that that that mean and and the gap in funding . So when we have a change in government , that where there is that gap , that that then means that people don't have a job at the end and then they move on to something else .

So there's just things that we can get better at as a government to prevent this turnover of of staff in communities and gap in service

delivery . That that I think can address some of those issues and keep those really good programs going as long as they should , which is forever , as long as they're needed really .

You're really well facilitated coming together where stuff's got really intransigent or even worse , you know , in conflict , and some of the extraordinary success stories of how people can come together through those processes .

And we've even seen that , for example , in Gladstone in Queensland sort of coal central historically that's , through a process like this has charted an energy transition plan with full backing of official bodies and communities and so forth .

And the way that Judy said it was interesting because she's sort of come to believe strongly in this work and is dedicating more of her time to it . And she said to her it's almost a way to do the impossible . It's what you would believe that over time has proven itself to not be possible is in fact possible .

And often in these settings , these community settings , they'd often have like a bloodlet first right , and so that would include all the reasons why it's not possible for stuff to work that might be proposed , whatever it is energy transition in that instance , something else in another instance . You can imagine this sort of stuff .

And then the next step in the process is broadly I'm simplifying it , but is broadly OK , given all those reasons make it impossible . If it was possible , what would we do ?

And Judy sort of glibly characterizes this as the wouldn't it be cool if approach and I've applied this in this instance as wouldn't it be cool if , I guess in that sense , voice gets up , but really , with reference more to the next one , as wouldn't it be cool if it does enable the stuff that will play a role in enabling .

What if it does , what if it will . And I guess in that sense I'm revealing where I've come to through all these conversations , for all the complexities of them that I wouldn't want to die wondering if that's true . Yeah , would you say , when it comes to hitting rubber , hitting road on voting day , that you feel the same ?

It's not going to be at the Commonwealth in this instance , like it's us who are supporting our families , our children , our old people , our young people . So we're just going to keep doing .

We're going to get up the next day , we're going to pull up our big girl undies up and we are going to be doing what we do , whether we feel good about it , whether we feel depressed , whether we feel sad , whether we feel happy . That's the nature of the beast . But yeah , we've got to . Yeah , we can't go to our graves thinking what , if ?

That's for sure .

And the best that we can is that we vote yes and that we allow our leadership , which is the First Nations leadership , which I know will make this work and I know will lead and push the Australian government to close those gaps and to address those deficiencies in our policy and funding , to get better outcomes , because at the end of the day , we would all

want to keep funding programs that don't work for our mob , because that's not helpful for anyone . We just want better outcomes now for our people .

That's , I think , what we all want , and that's that's all we've been asking for all of this time is to stop making us an industry for welfare , for housing , for prison , for all of this , and actually do all those agencies out of business so that we can just live a happy life like the majority of other people . I think that's really what we're .

That's the road map . That's where I'm hoping to be heading right on . You know , walking on our community with right on .

She was asked is there a secret ingredient of sorts ? It was something along those lines and she said don't ask people to pick a side .

And I think about that too in this context is like , okay , this is what we're doing here , and no wonder it blows up , because if a man does , finding , for example , that that's the main thing that you don't do if you want people to come together , so it's ironic in that sense that we're doing this .

But again , I come back I still come back to where we just ended it and where you ended it that on Saturday , given that's what's happening , vote yes , but it will fill shoes that walk us somewhere along this road together as well , and we go on with the work .

That most of the time , hopefully , we're not being asked to pick sides and we're not asking others to pick sides . It is about coming together . Yeah Well , heidi , I so appreciate that you've taken the time to do this with me and to be able to go where we went .

Yeah , it was really meaningful , I think , so thanks .

this whole conversation .

And so thank you , thanks for the opportunity , and I just hope people have been able to take part in conversations to better understand and take away the unknown and the fear or any fear that they have had around this process , but just to be able to participate and better understand , because I think that that's important and , at the end of the day , I just

don't think that anyone has anything to lose , but surely we've got something to gain out of this .

You're on , but hey , before we go , just quickly because it's relevant , I think in a way I don't want to sign off without touching on it where you're going to be for the next few days at the biodiversity conference and I partly ask because it looks like it looks like amongst the things it's doing well at a glance is that it's got a real statewide presence

and First Nations presence , whereas I'm seeing the entire first day is dedicated to First Nations . Is that right ?

The first day is largely First Nations focus , so we'll see a lot of the ranger groups come down from across the state , so it'd be wonderful to connect with them tomorrow and to have a just have a look at the work that they're doing and a lot of the work that's backed up by research through the various universities and scientists that are working with them

around their conservation land management practices . The next two days are then around everyone else working in this space , so it's going to be a fantastic three days .

I'm really looking forward to it to being there , but also just catching up with mob tomorrow that I haven't seen across the rest of the state since I've been back in Perth now for I think , two years since I've been back in Perth again . So it's always good to catch up with everyone .

Yeah , things are moving , things are feeling good and that value on knowledge , on traditional knowledge , has really been placed a lot higher and yeah it's wonderful to see .

I found this because I love true crime things and this is a true crime one from New Zealand , about this stuff . Stop it , AJ . Seriously about this couple that went missing in New Zealand . Anyway , I'm really loving this and I'm so into it .

And I should say , when I mentioned that many of my conversations with Aboriginal people around WA have had similar overtones to this one , they also had similar conclusions .

Not all , I have to say , but when it comes to voting time , most told me they'll be voting yes - as a part of the bigger invitation that's always been there to come together , find ways to hear what we know works and experience more of how good that feels . I'll put a link in the show notes to the Biodiversity Conference too , though it is sold out .

And right on theme , the Reconnection Festival is just weeks away now in the northern rivers of New South Wales . Podcast subscribers get a 10% discount . Just see my recent posts on Patreon for the discount code and I'll see you there .

The RegenNarration is an entirely listener supported podcast , so if you've been thinking about becoming a subscriber , I'd love you to join us . It's with thanks , as always , to this community of generous supporters that this episode was made possible . Just head to the website via the show notes regennarration . com forward slash support and thanks again .

A nd perhaps especially with this one, t hanks for sharing the podcast , if you can think of someone who might enjoy it , and for continuing to rate and review it on your favoured app . It all helps . The music you're hearing is Regeneration by Amelia Barden , off the soundtrack to the film Regenerating Australia . My name's Anthony James . Thanks for listening .