168 Excerpt. At Rachel’s Farm, with Rachel Ward & Mick Green

I don't think you know . They do say that they put off . You know they stop the indigenous trees growing around them and whatever . I'm given faith because it's full of birds already . But you know , I just think , I don't know , I don't , I can't . I think we're doing it as lightly as we can .

Yeah .

Mick would disagree . Mick would say leave the bloody trees there , but then we would have had yeah , we've . We have had our disagreements about this area .

All right , let's mic Mick up and bring him in . Hey mate . How are you ? Mick: Good mate ? AJ: Yeah , so welcome Mick . It's brilliant to speak to you too , mate , having seen a bit of your story in the film , obviously and spoken to you a bit last night so thanks for coming in .

Not a problem , mate , not a problem .

And where we , where you just have come into , is a fascinating moment . Where the right ways to go . Part of the thing is that they're not so clear as in that old sort of industrial mechanical frame where you just bang , bang , roll a spray that plant that , whatever . It's more of a mystery and you've got to sort of intuit your way through .

Yeah , I think that's my starting point now is assume that I'm wrong . It's normally . If there's ever anything going wrong , it's it's generally either my mistake or it's a human , a human thing . It's not something that nature got wrong .

And that's the change of things , doesn't it ? With that frame ?

Yeah , it's , it's your mindset you know you go more gently . Yeah , and it's the art you know me trying to communicate and learn what I've done wrong and learn to work more in tune with a natural , natural world . I just have so much belief and faith in it . It's been doing it a lot longer than I have .

It's really interesting to think about the fact that your old band's in the film too right and you've got this relationship where he's not convinced you disagree on this and I'm wondering if I'm wondering what your take is on the barrier to seeing . I mean , doesn't seem any merit at all in it , does he ?

You know , I've thought about this before and I'm sure they you know , everyone has , you know , some understanding , or but we , they get that won't work here , you know , or that people will say that that that won't work here Because that was the receive wisdom . Well , let's have a discussion about it and you tell me what you think that is . What is that ?

was the change in you . Where'd that come from ?

Well , a lot of people say they had a , you know , a penny drop moment or a , a hardship or something . But mine was has been along , you know , even from when I was working in in amongst the coal mines and it was just in the Hunter Valley , in the Hunter Valley just a gut feeling like how can ? This isn't right . You know there's got to be something .

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . So it was really more of a slow gestation .

Yeah , yeah , and I you know , read things and listen to things and you know , like my mentors and Joel Salam , you know I listened to his work and just how he words things and you know that's honesty and and and correctness and and good intent , filled with good intent , and , you know , just trying to do the right thing by the land and the people and live

Live frugally thing .

It's part of it . Hey , yeah , yeah , yeah .

And that you know we're trying to trying to teach our kids kids that . And our eldest daughter she's , you know , leaving home and and she's examining what , what I do and what Deb does , and and I said to her this is an intentional choice that we're doing . Deb .

Yeah , because she said she couldn't . Didn't she say I can't do that , for I'm living in Newcastle and I can't do that I can't do that as easy and you went yes , you can . Yeah , I said , of course , and you have to , you know everyone .

Everyone has to play their part . You know , we're all . We're all part of a big whole . Whether you live in a city or if you're a coal miner , we all consume . We're all . You can't blame anyone else . We all have to be accountable . We're all part of it . We're all all doing it .

This is part of the thing , and it's certainly part of my story , that this podcast isn't a farming , it's not a regenerative agriculture podcast , and this isn't just about farming . This is about everything .

Whatever field you're in , wherever you are .

So it's really interesting to hear you coming at that as well , and , I guess , in an explicit way too , because you probably , as a lot of farmers , are acutely aware that being able to do what you do relies on the rest of the systems that interact with it .

the market systems that we talked about a little bit before there the economy .

She's even the way we would recognise health as coming from this and not from the pills after you get sick type of thing , the whole kit . This is something that you think about a lot . My word yeah .

A lot of time for contemplation .

It really motivates what you do . Yeah , I wonder how that bit's going for you guys like that . And you talked about it in the film too , Rachel , which which people will hear . We'll hear , of course , that the rest of the story is beyond the farm , where it does connect in with markets and people in their different lives .

The industrial world , the world , how , how most of that is worked , worked for economies of scale , and how , where do we fit into that ? How can we , how can we exist alongside it ? Or how can we infiltrate it ? Or how can we , how can ?

And you don't need the back end health care as much , etc . You take out those costs etc . Reparation of nature what are we going to do with it ?

Yeah , it's so hard at this point to sort of balance it and to make the argument work so that it's all right for you elites . You know it's all right for you that don't have to . You know that aren't on a really tight budget . I mean we can't afford to have the regenerative , the organic vegetables .

That's right , well it's compound right , because I think as things get harder and we call this a cost of living crisis we're in . So that's symptomatic of the systems we're talking about . So you can remain and I know it can be tough . I mean I've experienced the plenty of it myself . I mean I don't make much doing this . I can tell you .

I mean in the 60s , we spent 60 percent of our income on food .

Exactly , and we spent 13 percent or something now , for example .

So that's been a huge shift and that's just gone to cheaper and cheaper and cheaper food . And you know , I was talking to this guy who's a big wig moving in between the states and here and I can't remember .

It's all about holding the jobs . Well , that's another thing , isn't it ? But to the extent that is important , you're right , or you hold , you move the lives in a way that makes it steady , and what people are cared for in the transitions .

Yeah and continue to . You know really , yeah , it's you know , but only because of the market only because the market going up and down .

That's what makes us fun , but that would make it vulnerable , whether we were doing it this system or another .

Well , the markets are always going up and down still think the principles , and you know there's certain principles that apply everywhere . It's like you know , with the inflation and the power increases , guess what ? Use less their mechanisms , that will . I don't care if fuel goes up .

Yeah , I think that's we should be paying what fuel's worth , and that will drive change .

It's what I said , if there's proper accountability and things aren't subsidised like electronics and whatnot , and they have to be accountable and pay for it , change will happen . If inflation and everything costs more , my solution is use less , be frugal . People have to learn to use less , especially if it , and be happy using less .

You know , speaking of young people , there's a moment where you guys went to I think did you both go to the holistic grazing course together as part ?

of this . No , I went to catch up , you went to catch up . He was on farm . I had to catch up with him and Normie .

They were very on top of it , they were all very on top of it . Yeah , I don't think you ever ever get to a point where you've grown , but I needed the basics .

I needed the basic stuff , so I did the holistic management one which was fabulous , that little snippet in the film .

there were young people in that room .

Oh , it was easily the oldest person in there .

Yeah , so this is this is the other cohort of young people . It's true , actually there was a lot older .

There was women my age actually in there I went with a girlfriend who was my age . No , that's true , there was women . There was more women than men , of course . Why do I say of course ?

but they're good at learning .

They're good at going either . I don't know anything . Men are harder to go . I don't know anything .

Yeah , and there's young people in the room too .

That's an ongoing conundrum is how they can afford land , how they can get their small plot of land . I mean , you know the way Casey and Tom are doing it . They've got a pretty small area and they're just making that . You know they're growing the most beautiful vegetables and they're quite hard to get into .

So as I drive around and again , I don't drive far , but in this area tons of underutilised land . But it's about the owners being okay . Leases are such a daunting thing for .

To owners .

You say To owners yeah , yeah , yeah , let alone to the ones who , because it can be confronting to put your name on something . But if they really understood , you know what it was about . It's trying to make sure everyone knows where they're going , and you know . I just say underutilised land for years .

I mean particularly around here because people only have like 50 acre plots .

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah Plots or whatever .

So there's a lot of people who just don't know what I mean , like even like Paul up the road , he's got a . He would have a 10 acre plot , wouldn't he ?

25 acres , that's perfect for renting . Yep , I've seen it go for periods of 10 years with nothing , no livestock , nothing . You know , 25 acres for 10 years . Someone could have been in there regenerating that land and making an income from it . Fireproof that place .

Yeah , there seems so much opportunity in that , because , whether you're talking , even the First Nations collaborations again , or next generation , if the barriers include lack of access to capital , and land and there's plenty of underutilized land . Wow , it's huge opportunity , it's interesting .

It's bloody hell . It's hard to make money on the land .

I mean it's . So this goes back to what you said before , when you said the markets go up and down , you're exposed either way and in the way like the commoditization of this stuff , that seems to be something we're going to have to face down it cannot be that way for the right thing to be done . What are your thoughts on that ?

Well , I mean , I think , for the , you know , for the Casey-Tom example it's just fantastic . I mean because it's a small amount of land and they are just developing their skills to be able to get the very best out of it and they are making a living . They've formed a cooperative . Not against that . Again , I imagine they're living fairly frugally .

There's a lot of people like that .

There's a lot of people who don't , and you know my sense of beauty . I just get off on the beauty of what we're doing in the forest and the grass and the way that I mean everything is just breathtaking sometimes isn't it ?

Anywhere , anytime , there's always a miracle going on . But what you just said , I worry about the disconnect . There's so many people living disconnected from that , and a lot of our decision makers , whatever . But I know it's going on . They don't know how dependent they are on these tiny little things that are happening out here .

There's not much to awaken it . We've had school kids , we've had the number of school kids coming up and there in year six , right , I could not believe how many of them said I love this farm , I love farms , this is so beautiful . They talked about the view and things I mean it's there , it's latent in them .

I'm just saying something isn't it . As distinct from , for example . This is part of what I saw in the podcast too . I was running events . Literally the last one I did that would get two 300 people in Melbourne because I believed , like you're about to do with your film , these conversations should be everywhere . So civic centres , everywhere .

But you know , thank God for the air BNBs . I mean , that's enabling people to really get on . Oh my God , we have an Airbnb here and I thought forget it , We'll not go to anyone . We're down a dirt road . It's booked out .

And everybody is around . They're open to the signals .

Of course they must be otherwise why would they want ? To go off track and go all the way back there and love the river and love the birds and love , you know , even if we got them up early the other day because the cattle were in the yards and they love that Do you know what's really interesting to me ?

So Airbnb because of my visceral experience going around the country , I've seen towns and communities emaciated because of Airbnb . Long term families in regions like Northwest . Cape when we went there a couple of years ago . We spent a bit of time there and we couldn't find anywhere .

Yeah , because of Airbnb .

Yeah , because they were bunted from their rentals for Airbnb where they own as good food . Four times as much . They're not around . Yeah , doesn't matter . Community is really affected , and this was true in the Kimberley too , like massive cafes and centres are gathering all shut because they've all been taken over by the Airbnb .

Owners have chosen Airbnb instead of renting to long term tenants , but then in the end surely there has to be the amenities that go with the Airbnb . So is there the coffee shop there , or is there just nothing ?

That's the irony Exactly , you've come in .

Right , well , they'll soon die .

That's the thing . It makes you wonder . There's actually an alternative , an Australian person that's come up with an alternative , I think it's called might even be called Wayfinder actually but I tend to speak within more .

Yeah , and you know , and just doing this sort of farming too , to make it work you've got to stack enterprises .

Yeah .

You've got to have a couple of things going for you , I think , to make it viable . You know , and it's you know , we're not making less than we were for sure . But , we do need to have other things in place to just when the market goes down , that there is something else that sustains us because we're small farms . Here we're really dealing .

You've all got to have jobs . Most people around here have got off .

Second jobs yeah .

That's probably the problem , isn't it I ?

mean for someone like me who doesn't farm . I think , okay , it's clear amongst all the patterns I'm observing , we need more farmers like you guys , who are more in touch with things and in communities , again , that have been you know , especially out west . I can tell you just evacuated .

Probably the well . As far as the carbon things , we're too small to really make a big difference Really , so that can't even help at this scale .

I'm always , I always want to put more carbon where it should be yeah , yeah , of course , but for you to get some recognition and value return , if you like . On that , yeah , yeah .

Well , at the moment it's still quite expensive to actually measure it , and particularly in the most robust ways like Terry does .

Yeah , Terry the plus one yes .

They're very robust ways of measuring and that's expensive . So it's too expensive really for a farmer's eyes To knit wind . Yeah , you know , those costs will go down eventually and it's always the pioneers that take the brunt and has to take , you know , take the hard . I mean for me I think , anything that gives a farmer a bit of subsidy .

But in terms of the general MO of regeneration with all there is to gain with that . That's where there's not so much no no , no .

So if any , if you can find any other way , like if you can get into carbon trading . I mean , I agree , it's complicated . We don't want anybody just getting away scot free with their pollution because of it . But I do see that you know if some farmers can make it can survive actually by having these other things .

This is certainly what a lot of stations are doing now . So with bigger holdings of course , but doing regenerative I mean there's sort of a different context . It's interesting that it's just got a name now we hadn't heard of Hip camp yeah .

I mean , of course everybody heads for the beach . Generally in Australia that's down to the beach , but there's some of us who would rather swim in a river with eels in it than go to the beach . I mean I would much rather have a great , have a fabulous dam and a river to swim in . Me too , Anambaka River is just so magical .

Well , it also . I mean just for me , who does prefer the ocean , but what hits me is just a living landscape . There's water in this living and not too much like speaking of floods and so that you guys have been cared after the fires , that it just looks healthy in the lives . So just at that level .

I just love it for the life that's around the river . I mean you're swimming in the river and there's ducks , and there's butterflies , and there's dragonflies , and there's kingfishers , and there's just such life all around you which I don't find Obviously when you go to the ocean . It's under you but it's not you know , you get a few seagulls .

Yes , I spent time down there this morning , absolutely beautiful . The verification process you alluded to briefly before and hammered the sign in up at the top of the driveway . Does that help ? And this for listeners ? This will be .

some way . Well , again , you know , things are in their infancy and we are still pioneers really in this area . So the markets and all of those things which they are essential tools really for verification in a marketplace . So for us it's really about going . So it stops the green lighting , it basically goes .

Beware the green tick .

Yeah , and it's difficult if you're not selling .

We're very much a breeding enterprise up here so we're not finished cattle , so really it's for a finished market , it's for letting people know that it was great for us at the beginning , when we were measuring , to seeing if we were doing the right thing , really essential for us to know we were moving in the right direction and that's where I see the added

Yeah , I hear you and I know there are good people working on what representations of that value that we need to value more are coming on and being experimented with . It'd be interesting to see how they converge over time .

Yes , I mean , people are going to get fed up with the gas lighting , with the green lighting , whatever it . What do you call it ?

Yeah , green ticks , green ticks , yeah yeah .

No , I mean , who can you trust ?

Yes , exactly .

I don't know this sort of , even the zero carbon farming . I don't know how you measure that . What is the zero carbon ? I'm not sure .

I mean Blair from Farmer's Footprint . Australia quipped to me yesterday know thy farmer , when we were talking about something I mean connection does seem to be here . It's community again . It's what we want anyway .

Yeah , but a lot of people can't even begin to know their farmer . I mean , they're miles away from that connection . But you can know your farmer , but if you know your verifications then you know that you're buying from the right source rules . But they're not big enough yet . And of course it's all in there .

You can eat like kings .

Like we did last night . I mean , there was just nothing in that meal that just wasn't straight paddock to plate everywhere . The bellowed beef , brilliant and Mandarin bent vegetables , and Rosie had grown her pumpkin . That was her pumpkin . That she'd grown and it just gives it a different and it's new for me . I'm still very buzzing on it .

I love that .

The fact that we know who our farmers are , we know what we're eating , we know where it's coming from .

Yeah , that's what it does . There's a part in the film where Charlie as he talks about having expected this stuff might have come on more because of how infectious it can be and he's spoken about this for a while , but he really is honing in on it that there are power plays , now very explicit holding it back .

Yeah , I do think about that a little bit , but I still think you're doing podcasts , rachel , getting this doco up and the stories being told are gonna filter out , even to the producers . If we're talking about profit and this is where we got it profit per hectare , once enough farmers and that have enough time to filter through hang on a minute .

And it is a habit . Is it something to change your habit to really think about where you are ? I mean , it's a slightly more of an effort for me to organise to go and pick up my meat box where it gets delivered from Bellengine . Slightly more effort to put my order , not really hardly , it's just a different habit .

Exactly , yeah , just going into the soup .

It's just a slightly different habit . The effort is in the change , but then it's the new normal and that's the new normal , yeah , and people can do that absolutely as well in the city as they can here . There is opportunity .

Yeah , at that deeper level .

But we haven't really felt it , except for like we came to a roadblock with our abattoirs because all the abattoirs have been bought out now .

So they're centralized abattoirs everywhere .

They're miles away . Cattle have to go great distances to bloody get there .

It's hard to know what happens there You're hard to know what happens there .

We weren't allowed to take our cattle to our nearest abattoir . They didn't want to do a specific , because they're all streamlined to go straight to certain supermarkets , their buyers . They didn't want to do one that was on the outside , going somewhere else . That was too much effort for them .

You want to taste the different regions .

Oh tasting . This must be a . It's got a slight bell engine taste to it . It's got a slight wogga-wogga taste to it .

This is the funny thing . Hey , we do it with wine , yeah exactly that's right .

It's a funny thing that we have in the house .

It's cool that you're in there . Yeah , right on .

Yep and you come to , door stops to have a sample . Yeah , so it is a nice little reference point , I think , for the change that might be in play .

And I actually think there's value in a certain way . I mean I know there's virtue signalling as bloody annoying , but I actually do make a fud . I mean I do say when I go in and I want to have an egg and bacon sandwich , I know perfectly well that they don't know where that bacon's from . But I will always ask them where's your bacon from ?

I don't know why don't you know , but they tend to then go ask the cook or the manager or something . Yeah , they don't know either , but they're getting asked at least . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , absolutely yeah , it's on the radar .

Make yourself a pest about it . That's what I go . You know . Be annoying , Celebrate being annoying .

That's another pitch . So will you old man watch a film ?

Oh , I'm sure he'll watch it yeah .

Oh , that's gracious too in its own way , isn't it ?

Yeah , yeah , yeah , I think he's looking forward to seeing it come out .

Yeah , cool .

And you managed . There's a relationship that isn't divided because of the difference in approach .

No .

Which seems important too , Not just for you but , for all of us to take that cue .

I think you know , as we've progressed , you know , and I still have conversations and try and include and inform him and what I'm doing and why , and I'm getting better at discussing it with him .

Well said

God , that kind of makes me quite emotional to just think about it . It's completely I don't know . It's taken this , this darkness away from me . Actually , it's sort of and I don't know whether that was because I feel empowered .

That's right .

There's a fair bit of that , but anyway , you know it bloody does work . Of course it works .

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , completely works .

And I see people all around here who are just having . So enjoy it , enjoy the community . I mean , we've got a new friend up here , greg , who's just left work in the city and he just couldn't wait to leave his job and get back up here and start .

In fact , you were saying that's probably a majority of people around this little hood now that are taking that on in some form .

Yeah , yeah , I mean , a lot of people really need culture . I don't . I find this . This is enough culture . This is culture for me . This is being out here . I don't really need to go and see the newest exhibition somewhere , not really .

You've had a big dose in your life of that too .

Eh yes , I guess so yeah , and you know we get it coming obviously through our television screens . Get as much of that as you want , really .

It's true .

But to be in this , in this world , is just , you know , it is heaven .

Yes .

And I think it is the health of it too .

It feels healthier , it feels positive , it feels right it feels , right , and if you could take a little bit of that connectedness that you know you're talking about and spread it around to the everyone else that's disconnected , we'd be a lot you know , a lot closer to being where we need to be .

How would you describe Mick in you , the part that it touches most in you , enlivens you ?

You've got to be connected and grounded . You know you've got we that understanding that we're part of the system , not separate from the system . We're in it .

Yeah , and it's easier to feel it here , isn't it ? It's easier to feel it on country , on land , I mean . I suppose people are born in . I mean , you know , brian was born in the suburbs . He feels very content and very connected in the suburbs . I mean that's his world , so it's very much you know where you come from .

Well , one of those Indigenous people on the panel in Brisbane . Her thing is really bringing a consciousness that country is everywhere . So connectedness to country is on offer everywhere and urban spaces is what she's working at , because that's where most people are and where it can be assumed that it doesn't exist anymore you know , but she's big

Well , for me I was just the music that I had for Beautiful Kate , my film Beautiful Kate , which was done with Tex Tex Perkins and the dark , his dark horses band . Just I just go wow , that was an incredible , that was a - yeah . You're nodding Like it really was an exceptional soundtrack .

Right , it's actually one of the things I wanted to say to you while I'm here with you , but you've just said it for me . That is exactly what I think about when I think of you as a filmmaker prior this anyway .

I do love a dark , moody soundtrack . AJ: Yes , me too .

Yeah , I don't listen . I don't get control of the sound waves at my house much . But if I was going to say what's moving me most at the moment , it's actually a hand-me-down book that's gone through . It started out it's probably Normie's because his writing's in there and it went through Greg and Greg's handed it to me .

Beautiful,

Thank you . Good on you , thank you .

That was Rachel Ward and Mick Green at Rachel's Farm in the Nambucca Valley on Gambanya country on the Mid-North Coast of New South Wales . For more on Rachel , the film , the tour and how to book your seat , see the links in the show notes .