¶ Permaculture's Role in Systemic Change
But you have said that that sort of narrative or approach that has been dominant in permaculture of just create a sort of parallel or alternate thing is not enough . This has got to get to the systems we live by .
Yeah , of course it does . It becomes self-evident Suddenly . You think we've had 40 , 50 years to create all these alternatives . Is the world doing ? No , so what's required ? Let's work with local government . Let's work with local NGOs . Let's work with UN sustainable development goals . Let's tie ourselves into the UN planetary boundaries .
Let's accept the challenge for the ecosystem restoration . And who is better placed to do it than permaculture to just replace ecosystems of all types ? It is almost a shining beacon for me . That's self-evident . Is there anything else ? I would love to be challenged . I want to be challenged .
I don't want to be delusionary and have talked myself into an opinion or state that's wrong and erroneous and keep saying it .
But it is going to . What else is there ? Well , you've talked about that .
What it's going to require is people to get in permaculture , to be able to well change in a respect , to answer the call , if you like , and a lot of your call , then , is to be able to also connect with traditional cultures , a lot of which you've had something to do with , and I wonder , even in Australia , if that's true , if you've had connection with
traditional cultures , you know , since the Kimberley days , in this way , like how can that be done better ?
Well , we can't lump all traditional cultures together .
No .
If you're talking about the ethnic Malay tribes on East Coast Malaysia or Sri Lanka living in little palm huts . They're not comparable to the Nepali living in the mountains or whatever . In some places there are no indigenous people at all , as in the Iberian Peninsula .
It is a concept that's very strongly Australian and European and colonial nations understand it , because it doesn't work everywhere and yet it's utterly needed . If you're talking about the Ainu of Japan or the very small , largely ignored groups in Taiwan . So it has huge relevance for some and not for others .
I worry that everything that people have done traditionally is considered somehow better and more valuable than anything we do today . I think that's called cultural romance . We have to be very careful .
But if we look at what the Islamic nomadic tribes did when they took goats into the Iberian Peninsula within 300 , 500 years they turned rich oak forests and soils and pigs and livelihood and birds and running water . The same in the tiger chufretis . With the goats they turned it to desert and what we see today .
So a little bit of selection around understanding what it is to live in ways that maintain the systems that maintain life . So I'd like to look at the peoples I've met and always say how are their forests , how are their water ? How is their biodiversity ? How are their soils ? Is it being degraded ?
If it's not , I do an immediate , mad , quick study and look at it and study it and make endless notes that I never print up but they're lost in the boughs of my computer somewhere , but very , very interested . The Hawaiians , for example , said the river starts at the top of the hill .
Hawaiians also had forests that collected rain on the top of the hills and they said if you cut those down , the gods will be angry . You have to be able to read cultural storytelling and that's not our way of thinking . We talk about desiccation and erosion and rivers drying up .
When I've talked to the consul , they bury their ancestors at the top of the hill and animals not allowed to graze there and no one's allowed to cut anything . That's a zone five . Then they have the next circle around and you're allowed to take stock in there and graze , but you're not allowed to cut anything .
That's a zone four and all that is preserving the water and the soil and the climate and bringing the clouds in this rainforest . And they will tell it in terms of their ancestors again . But it's a different story and I think the best thing we can do is combine the best of western and the best of traditional works .
But I wouldn't go to Easter Island to find out about forests .
So interesting . You should say that I had a podcast earlier this year with a couple of Mayan people in Guatemala , so at Harkback they'd started this organisation when I had started in Guatemala , though I'd never met them we were in different regions at the time but earlier last year I think they were getting a major global award .
It was wonderful to see it and we linked up . It's the Instituto Mesoamericano de Parama Cultura .
Oh , yes , I've heard of them .
I met them in Brazil , that's wonderful and they talked expressly about confronting their situation as it is , you know , post-colonial again and just degraded . And how can we work with this now that their traditional knowledge wasn't enough ? Now , in this different context and I've heard some First Nations in Australia say similar- they are saying it , so we need to .
Face with climate change .
Face with the soil change Exactly . Face with species lost , yes , so what we need to do is look at the best of each other . It was another case in point , and so they scanned what else was available and came to permaculture and felt that was the closest match to their worldview and practice and so forth . And now their global , globally recognised , absolutely .
Terrific . Yes , there's been too much change happening on colonial , former colonial things for the practices that went so long and global warming is going to throw it all out anyway . I think we have to combine both . There was a group up in Mariba and they called it abraculture , so not a boraculture but ab .
That was aboriginal culture and they had I've still got notes on what they were talking about but useful concepts of opportunistic agriculture . So when it's wet you expand and when it's dry you contract to your limitations of your resources . So stop putting in . That happened in Portugal this year .
The government said it's too dry to put any crops in the ground Opportunistically . The government said nothing's to be planted , wow , it'll all die . But that was taking notice of what was happening and not risking the failure . It's a different way of response to what's happening , not being prescriptive , and that has to .
That opportunistic thing has to come into a lot of what we do . I think Don't know if I talk about it , but you know very keen on people to see permaculture as restorative . I'm hoping , but I don't know , that permaculture is a restoration , applied science for people and land Makes more sense than it's a toolbox of some things .
That something , something , I'd like something to click and people think , oh , restore , restore what you know . I understand that word , I can use it . What are you talking about ? And it leads them into clearer and quicker way of coming to permaculture .
Yes , because you've got this sort of ultimate call to become the restoration species . Like to take that responsibility , given we have the ability . It's an evocative vision , like it can be an inspiring call for us .
We're the species who could do it . No other species can . Yeah , how's that ?
for a different story .
So what's our role ? It's not to manage it , it's to get into relationship and become part of the solution . Stop being part of the problem . That means saying am I part of the problem and where and how ? And you know that's a mollusen too . Bill says always say , socially , am I part of the solutions for this community ?
So not how important I am , but am I functioning well in my community ? And look at this place .
Wow .
What an example .
huh , the ectoburbia yeah that's right and community underline and bio region .
there's a lot to be said about place Moving into bio regional thinking , no longer thinking I'm me siege mentality lot more gift economy , a lot more sharing , a lot more . Yeah , all that .
Speaking of the intrinsically rewarding stuff too . Vandana Shiva does the forward to this addition , and she uses that phrase economy of permanence and economy of permanence , and part of what you're on about , too , is obviously , yes , changing these broader systems that we give these labels to .
We never did talk about economy like this last century well , the one before last century , you know , more than 100 years ago . It's so interesting how things can feel like they're rusted on and just the way it is to .
We must take care of the economy , but being what it is and where we are to be able to reconstruct an economy in this mould too , is something that is obviously part of what you're talking about . What's taken you fancy in that way ?
Are there people going about it in ways that you admire , sort of beyond that community level , like models that have sort of transcended and offer something to all of us ?
On the Blue Mountains . We're going from circular economy led by council , council saying we are going to really work at this . It won't be easy , but we're going to put our hand to the wheel , we're going to do it . We want to take the imagination of the people .
I think also a behind the scenes concept is the seven forms of capital , and I think that is so important . So at the moment , we have one form of capital , that's numbers in your bank account , really . I mean and then we have our houses , but in a way that translates to the same thing , doesn't it ?
You keep telling people guess what my house is worth this much now Pathetic conversation and turn it into environment and clean air and good community and the issues that are really important that will carry us through the disasters we're still going to get , because we're not holding it back at a rate fast enough .
Cops are a bit disappointing and not coming in really , really hard Sort of predictable though it was a bit predictable , but Australia is the canary in the coal mine and we can see what's coming from there . So it's going to be a pretty uncomfortable time and we need other things and money in the bank .
Yeah , and you can see the shift coming .
you've said yeah , yeah , and it's happening with people . I think that I think COVID had a big effect Disaster . The understanding that green and quiet areas are important to physical and psychological health is now well established . People keep telling you how important it is . It's changing some of the structure of cities .
Urban permaculture is doing a great burst at the moment . In trying to green , I think Barcelona's got 6,000 balcony gardens or roof gardens or something . It's not many in that city but still it's still pushing on . And if you fly over a city now you can see rooftop and balcony gardens happening and technology's moving fast .
We're going to be able to print out a solar panel , stick it on the roof of your car . When it wears a bit you'll just wash it off and print it again on that plastic . It's not here yet , but the answers are there . It's not the technology and life will be better . It will be better when they walk instead of being in their cars .
It will be better when they're working in their gardens and giving things cuttings . People will be better when they're not always on their phones and computers , because the richness of a human experience is never the same as when you face to face .
No , hence why we are in person here today . We're a social animal , indeed , speaking of which , I did want to come to our close with the theme of eldership .
It's something that you , you embody , for a lot of people is that , and I know that a lot of what you're on about in the stage of your life is helping people find their way in this space , encouraging others to succeed you . I wonder for you , as you take a broad sweep of your journey , if that was bestowed on you at any stage .
Were there people that really were there for you , even if they didn't know it at particular times ?
Yes , probably not in permaculture , but there were always people
¶ Permaculture, Women, and Succession
yes . I loved those Quaker women in the Vietnam War , 80 years old , out front with their sons . You know , save our sons and they looked as if they'd come out of a beauty salon . Quite often , you know , they didn't look . They were very ordinary , middle-class looking . And there they were with the courage of their convictions .
Reminds me of Las Abuelas , the Argentina , the grandmother of Argentina yeah , and many other stories and many other stories of indigenous women too , in these contexts .
Black Sash women in Africa . They were terrific in the time of apartheid , absolutely marvelous also . I've been very influenced by reading . I think I've loved you know , things like Rachel Carson . Good writing about the environment is hugely important people to talk to .
Who will talk about the wicked problems and whether permaculture is able to meet them or whether it stops somewhere in its effectiveness . Should we not even try to go there ?
People like Narsana and Padma in India , 30 , 40 years of permaculture in Australia , the food forest in Gawla I mean what Anne Marie and Graham have done to look at mature crystal waters and echo village and they might be examples , but they're also so replicable but , now we have to work with government and local get .
Get on to your local government , start working with . They're all key to change . They all want to run the SDGs , they all want to change . They all want to cut their budget and cut their carbon . They're all a little bit competitive about that , so it's a wonderful opportunity . It's a time most people are uneasy .
Floods make them unhappy , ukraine makes them unhappy . The lack of everything is that unease and fear , and by engaging well in your local government , the fear goes away because you're part of other people doing something . There have been a lot of people of influence . I just wasn't expecting the question no , I'm sure always the answer is terrific .
It gives you , it gives us enough of a sense to know that they're everywhere .
I'd like to say there's a real danger in making heroes out of older permaculturists . I really dislike the word wisdom when they mean experience , because all I think about if you ask me a question is where have I seen or heard that ? But it's not me being wise , it just is that true and where was it true and could it be replicated .
But it's not what I call wisdom , it's just sort of you know , processed experience , and so I think it's a little bit uncomfortable . We shouldn't put people on pedestals .
Everyone's got feet of clay it's not okay , to do that there's a like I spoke to for the podcast . Even Jenkinson , who has written a lot about elders , ship and he has older people come into him and say how can I be an elder ?
Said it's not for you to say no , you don't the young people would tell you , or they'll just come to you and just be what you can for them yeah , I'm a great believer in having some succession .
So , whether it's a refugee camps or it's teaching in Portugal , I want some young ones there . I believe in the young ones and I think they are the future and I think the teal group of the future . I really and utterly believe that they can do it . It'll be harder than they think , but they can do it me too .
And opportunities for people with skills and ability . If someone haunts me often enough and long enough , I take them with me or give them that they have to . They have to send me , you know , a few phone calls , a few emails and say remember me , and I still want to do it . So you know , we've got the two .
Brenna , do you want to come teach ?
yes , we've got Greta . Greta want . Greta came to live with me in . She had a spare bedroom and you know I'm on the grip , I'm on the gift economy , so I don't charge her anything and she , she , she interrogates me . You know what you do about this and about that real learning thing . I've taken people from Europe . I'd love to give people opportunity .
I think that's a wonderful thing to do and I think it's the only way to get reasonable succession . And what I like is when there's so much better than I was at their age , you go oh , now we're getting there . This is accelerated succession socially .
They're away , they're running and I was staggering through the mud trying to look for a direction when I was their age and they're absolutely there . That's accelerated succession .
That is wonderful .
¶ Music!
So the other thing you didn't get the heads up on is that I close every episode talking about music , a piece of music that's been significant to you in your life , or even something you're just listening to .
No , that's violin concerto , slow movement . I think it's number 21 .
You look up into the distance .
Bart cello sonatas .
Oh , dear , me yes .
And in the Kimberleys I learned to love the Stockman playing a wind-up record . At night On Sunday afternoons we all had a break and we'd sit round and we'd talk and they would play stock songs and cry . So things like old faithful , we roam the hills together , old faithful , in any type of weather . Now you round up , days are over .
There'll be pastures white with clover For you , old faithful friend of mine . Giddy up old fella , cos we've got to get home to nigh . I'd giddy up old fella cos the moon is very bright . When you round up , days are over , there'll be pastures white with clover For you , old faithful pal of mine .
So I've got all the classical and I've got all the rock best , I've got all the country and western and I love folk because so many traditions of people and history and the story in place . Yeah , just wonderful . So I'd like to get to a national folk festival if I could . And another one is the . I'm sorry I've lost it . Nah , I just got distracted .
No , you've had well and truly answered the question A huge range of music really .
I'm not very good on modern music . It's really loud , you know . Will you dance or not like this .
I was a rock drummer .
I had plenty of that , I wouldn't have been responsive .
You wouldn't have been responsive , but I was also into the other . I was into all this too during that time , like from teen years I was into .
I'm in a recorder consort , I play a tenor and we play all 14th , 15th century music could hardly dare tell anyone , so it's sort of esoteric . But then there's the one when the dog died and Harry Dale the drover who drowned . You know , I've got all those sad songs as well , yeah , and the folk , stuff's gorgeous . I know the trade union choir music .
I love all those protests sung by trade unions . Bring out the banners . All the achievements of trade unions over the years yeah , so wide range really .
Wide range indeed . Yeah , I'm glad I asked , row . Thanks so much . I wish you very well for the tail end of a big period for you in these events coming up and the book lands well and widely too . Thanks for taking time out of that schedule and being with me .
It's been a pleasure . It's been a bit different from a oh look . I think we have to mention Rob's drawings because they're very , very special , put so much time and work into it . So Brenna does a concept when she draws , rob does a fact .
Although they look folksy , they're actually extremely accurate and we've done it in such a way that people can lift them and use them in translations and take the captions off and replace them with their own and use them for teaching , so you can scale them up to A1 without any loss of perspective or distortion and then you can have , you know , our water landscape
the way it would be , naturally our water landscape . What we've done it ? Where are you ? Where do we intervene ? So they're just wonderful drawings and I really want to pay tribute to Rob . He's in the tradition of Bill and Andrew Jeeves and the black and white drawings .
Oh , I love it .
And then the young women are coming through with all the colour drawings and concepts , which is just balancing the whole thing off . So tribute to permaculture artists and designers as well .
Oh , yes , there was a recent podcast conversation and a book on quantum social change by a brilliant woman in Norway , Karen O' Brien's her name , and the artist was Tonya Bjordam . So a woman , in this case full colour , but extraordinary . And , yes , the book's where the art is , as you say , pivotal and central . So , yes , hats off .
Yeah . So people used to say to me I love your books . I'd say , oh , what do you love ? I love that picture of the woman trying to get into compost . I'd say what did the words say - I don't know - and I thought that was the best thing . It was gorgeous .
Thanks a lot , Rowe . Thanks for being with me .
Terrific , it's been great . Thank you .
That was Permaculture Legend Rosemary Morrow . For more on Rowe, her new book , the Earth Restorer's Guide to Permaculture , and , of course , to pick up a copy, see the links in the show notes . A nd with thanks to Lucy and the team at Melliodora , you'll also see a link to a giveaway offer , a book package including Rowe's n ew one, along with a number of others .
That offer closes at the end of next Monday , the 13th of March . Now you'll have heard artist Brenna Quinlan's name at the end there . Her partner Charlie Mgee and his Formidable Vegetable band are about to release a new album . I thought to play something off it and have had a glimpse and its outstanding .
B ut it was the title track of the last album , Earth People Fair , that really seemed to sync in with this conversation . It might be a bit noisy for Rowe , but she'll appreciate the vibe, and the Latin roots are setting me off in all the good ways - helicopter nightmares be damned . The band is also on tour now .
The link to all that is also in the show notes . We're getting close now to our live podcast conversation at the World Science Festival in Brisbane . I actually spoke with Zena and Jacob last Friday and wish you could have heard that hour or so too .
Anyway , you'll find us at 10am on March 26th talking regenerating country with brilliant First Nations guests Jacob Birch and Zena Cumpston . The link for that Yep , it's in the show notes .
Thanks , as always , of course , to the generous supporters who've helped make this episode possible , and if you , too , value what you hear , please consider joining this community of supporting listeners so we can keep the podcast going . Just head to the website via those show notes Regennarration . com forward slash support . Thanks again .
Of course do share this episode with someone you think might appreciate it . My name's Anthony James . Thanks for listening .