Episode 291. HB Products Sensors with Rooba Sivagnanam and Henrik Kudsk

This is how more people find out about it because we're really trying to. Uplift industry, bring the top guests from around the world. And this week I have some good friends from HB products. I've been meeting them more and more at the different shows. I learned about their product probably about seven or eight years ago.

I might've knew about them before that, but really when I started learning about. CO2 and actually the first manufacturer that I seen them on was Hill Phoenix, I believe some of their CO2 equipment might've been advanced or I can't remember. It's been a long time, but I've been seeing more and more.

And it's like anything I say, when you see something and you recognize it you start to see it more and more and more. It's like a car. If you bought a car and that exact. Car, you've never seen it on the road before, but you buy it. And all of a sudden you see it everywhere on the highway. So, so I'm excited about this conversation because I talk about these products, HB products, and a lot of my CO2 trainings, because more and more people are seeing and asking questions about it.

And it's like anything I say, when you see something and you recognize it you start to see it more and more and more. It's like a car. If you bought a car and that exact. Car, you've never seen it on the road before, but you buy it. And all of a sudden you see it everywhere on the highway. So, so I'm excited about this conversation because I talk about these products, HB products, and a lot of my CO2 trainings, because more and more people are seeing and asking questions about it.

It's the first time I seen it, or I seen it before. And really how do I troubleshoot it or how do I use it? And I'm, I'm excited about this. Ruba, Henrik, how are you guys doing?

Done in Denmark and we are very proud of that because we aim to have high, high quality products. So I'm, I'm mainly working with the, on the, on the sales side, on the commercial side. And that's also why we have a Henrik with us who is a more technically knowledgeable and then it's our product manager.

Capacitive sensors and to, we use this principle for switches for level sensors. And we have also introduced special sensors like web quality sensors, which can detect the amount of liquid coming out of an evaporator. And The defrost sensor, which can detect the amount of frost on an evaporator.

Capacitive sensors and to, we use this principle for switches for level sensors. And we have also introduced special sensors like web quality sensors, which can detect the amount of liquid coming out of an evaporator. And The defrost sensor, which can detect the amount of frost on an evaporator.

So we we're taking the capacitive measurement principle to, to new parts of, of the, of the industry, trying to, to help people optimize their, their systems and saving some energy and making the world a better place.

And when you add some liquid between the two, the two poles, the capacitance increase. And you can either use it for detecting that you have a liquid or True to measure the amount of liquid, which is between the two poles. So the physical sensor normally consists of of a rut and around it, you typically have a pipe and.

When the, the space between the pin and the rut the rod and, and the pipe fills with liquid the capacity and grow and you measure it. And we have an electronic unit, which converts it to an analog signal for transmitter or just an on off switch for, for

We'll dive into more, more of that, because this is something that I talk about in our CO2 programs all the time. Technicians are like, ah, it's not working. I'm getting an alarm. It's flashing red or green, or, you know, and we'll talk about a lot of that stuff. But Ruba, I want to dive in a little bit before we dive in deep in the technical stuff.

I've seen you at a ton of events around the world. And you're, you're out talking to different manufacturers, you're networking and growing your knowledge. And that's something I love doing. This is what I talk about. To my community and all the people, we got to get out to these events to, to meet different people in the industry.

What are some of the things that you really enjoy about going to these events? Cause I seen you last week at the HR expo, which was really cool. And you travel all around the world to go to these different events. And I, and like. The people that I talk to in each country, when an event or an expo comes up, you got to try to make it there and plan to go, what are some of the things you like about these different events, like Chilventa, AHR Expo, China Refrigeration, all these different ones.

Yeah. It's definitely that you, you, you get an opportunity, you know, especially, you know, all this online stuff is very, very good, but I. I think sometimes it's very important that you get out there and meet the people face to face and also when you talk technical stuff, it's good to have the sensors in your hand and they can see and touch and it's way easier to understand.

And you can cover a lot of the stuff in 30 minutes than using three hours online. And of course you know, it more and more the, the, the partners and and the associate we worked with. We become more like friends and it's very good to touch base again and reconnect. And yeah, and of course I also love seeing you, especially when I'm around in the U.

S. So yeah, so I really enjoy this, that you can get out there and make new connection and both you know, mixing of business and pleasure, so to say. I love that.

What are some things that you enjoy working about with a manufacturer like HB products?

And for us, that's like our extended family. And that's also why I love traveling. So sometimes it feels like visiting families. So yeah, so that's one of the values. And that's also. Like Henrik said, we have in house, so Even when people have some issues or anything, then we're all always there to help and that's how we do business. So that's also, then it's also important to be, be out there and meet them and, you know, listen to their challenges and come up with new products to solve them.

And I see you worked at an OEM for a long time or a manufacturer for a long time. What advice could you give a technician or anyone in refrigeration doing that transition? Because I did it myself, but I'd love to hear from you because I'm sure there are technicians or refrigeration professionals who have you seen come inside your organization? What are a couple of tips you could give them to for that transition? Or would you have any tips?

You just have to be able to simplify them a little bit and be able to communicate because often that's what I see with technician is that you're very detailed oriented and because you have. This enormous amount of knowledge, you want to spread it all out and you have to learn to, you know, keep it simple and communicate it because in the beginning it's more about, as I mentioned earlier, building relations and just introducing the product and the know how.

You just have to be able to simplify them a little bit and be able to communicate because often that's what I see with technician is that you're very detailed oriented and because you have. This enormous amount of knowledge, you want to spread it all out and you have to learn to, you know, keep it simple and communicate it because in the beginning it's more about, as I mentioned earlier, building relations and just introducing the product and the know how.

I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.

And what we do is we help contractors. By building customized training packages that work for their technicians, that work for their busy schedule to advance their skills in gauging them in continuing education and testing them. All these programs that we really do is really by the hands on approach, getting them to go out there and do.

The field work. So they get tangible results and we are committed to getting you the results you're looking for. All our programs are online drip model. So I can meet with technicians or the refrigeration professional. I can coach them. I can mentor them and our team of professional really want to take your business, to the next level.

So if you're a service manager, business owner or technician, reach out, head to refrigerationmentor. com or check out in the show notes, there's a book a call link and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's going to help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and aid vac industry.

So if you're a service manager, business owner or technician, reach out, head to refrigerationmentor. com or check out in the show notes, there's a book a call link and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's going to help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and aid vac industry. Now let's get to the conversation goal.

You got manufacturers calling you. You got retailers calling you. And it's always, not always, but a lot of times it's an issue. You know, the things are on fire and it's fallen down. Well, let's talk a little bit about your background. How did you even get into refrigeration?

I've been product manager for wind turbines and for reciprocating compressors in, in the business. So, so my background is is, is actually a mix between a master in, in mechanical engineering and a marketing background. So I have both and I love to try to, to simplify stuff and try to, to explain the, the complicated stuff in a, in a, a simple matter, a simple way as, as possible, trying to, to make people understand not making it complicated.

I've been product manager for wind turbines and for reciprocating compressors in, in the business. So, so my background is is, is actually a mix between a master in, in mechanical engineering and a marketing background. So I have both and I love to try to, to simplify stuff and try to, to explain the, the complicated stuff in a, in a, a simple matter, a simple way as, as possible, trying to, to make people understand not making it complicated.

There's a plenty of people out there who, who try to make stuff complicated and look Smart and, and so on. I tried to do the opposite, trying to explain how it works caught the crap and try to, to understand what, what people really need and help them with with their needs. And, and that's also pretty close to what we have in, in our company here.

We we have a lot of electronic units. We have a lot of mechanical parts and, we put them together for, for different applications and some of the stuff that we, we do, you can't do with, with standard products, with simple sensors, which are multipurpose. Like, like sensors we use for detecting oil in liquid ammonia.

We we have a lot of electronic units. We have a lot of mechanical parts and, we put them together for, for different applications and some of the stuff that we, we do, you can't do with, with standard products, with simple sensors, which are multipurpose. Like, like sensors we use for detecting oil in liquid ammonia.

So, so we have switches, which you can put in, in a vessel and you can see whether they are in, in gas. in oil or in liquid ammonia. So you can use the same sensor for, for detecting this. And we even have an advanced version where we, you can see for, for cascade systems, whether the sensor is in gas, it's in oil, it's in liquid ammonia, or if you have a leakage of CO2 into the ammonia.

Where you create a salt, which is blocking the complete system. So, so we are doing funny stuff by combining electronic units, mechanical units with good ideas and listening to people who have problems trying to, to build products based on that.

Where you create a salt, which is blocking the complete system. So, so we are doing funny stuff by combining electronic units, mechanical units with good ideas and listening to people who have problems trying to, to build products based on that. Trevor: And I think, I think a couple of things that I took away from there, and this is what I talk about once again with a lot of technicians in our community is like, you want to listen to the customer.

Cause maybe it's not, you don't have that solution for them at this time. And you'll be honest with them. You're like, Hey, I can't fix this because we don't have the right parts, or these are not the right parts here. We're going to have to look at a different solution. And that's doing what's right for the customer.

And I know that that's very important to you guys. And me and Ruba talked about it before. You want to make sure that you can solve the problem. That's why you guys build new components if you need to, you know what I mean? Or you try to test them out and see if there's a business. Case two, because it all makes sense.

You need to, you build a product that needs to be viable, right? You can't just lose money on a product, but you said something earlier too, that I liked it. It's like, keep it simple. You take a lot of support calls. What is one or two things that you, that you've received where it is complicated, but you kind of explain it to make it easy for either that manufacturer or that technician or contractor in the field, what are a few of the examples you've seen?

You need to, you build a product that needs to be viable, right? You can't just lose money on a product, but you said something earlier too, that I liked it. It's like, keep it simple. You take a lot of support calls. What is one or two things that you, that you've received where it is complicated, but you kind of explain it to make it easy for either that manufacturer or that technician or contractor in the field, what are a few of the examples you've seen?

Cause I know it's a repeat call. Like you do enough of it. Like it's the same Paul, you're getting in from different people from around the world, you know what I mean? So, but you got to get that. What are one or two things that are complicated, but you make it simple. I think what I, what I, what I love to, to describe is the way for quality control, which is fairly complicated when, when you look at it and, and it's new to, to most people.

And it's simply, it's question of, of measuring or detecting liquid in the suction line. And the sensor as, as such is not that complicated, but the, the complicated part is putting it in the right place where you expect to see the liquid. And and all the, the pitfalls when, when you talk about installing the sensor In wrong places, because it might be much easier to install the sensor on, on the top of a roof if you have a cold store and it's much easier to install it up there and you can look at it, you can control it, you can connect to it and so on, but it just doesn't work.

And it's simply, it's question of, of measuring or detecting liquid in the suction line. And the sensor as, as such is not that complicated, but the, the complicated part is putting it in the right place where you expect to see the liquid. And and all the, the pitfalls when, when you talk about installing the sensor In wrong places, because it might be much easier to install the sensor on, on the top of a roof if you have a cold store and it's much easier to install it up there and you can look at it, you can control it, you can connect to it and so on, but it just doesn't work.

So we have a lot of customers who see this sensor and oh yes, we can install it on the roof and we just need to say. No, you can't because it will not work because your horizon will be filled with liquid as soon as you reach a critical part load condition. So that's some of the, the critical things and you can explain and you can tell and so on and you need to repeat. Because it takes some time before people realize that their risers get filled with liquid.

That's one application, but also in pump circulated systems you like to have the same amount of liquid. Leaving the evaporator in part load as in a full load, because you design your system for full load and you use it in part load. And what people do is, is they run this in, in part load and they get their rises filled with liquid.

And that just means you will need way too much refrigerant in your system. Your charge will be very high and you have a lot of energy waste just by pumping this liquid around. And it's not the pumps which are pumping the liquid. It's actually the compressors which are working overtime. So we have a challenge with explaining people that in that riser pipe, they don't have gas, they have liquid and it's filled with liquid.

And that just means you will need way too much refrigerant in your system. Your charge will be very high and you have a lot of energy waste just by pumping this liquid around. And it's not the pumps which are pumping the liquid. It's actually the compressors which are working overtime. So we have a challenge with explaining people that in that riser pipe, they don't have gas, they have liquid and it's filled with liquid.

And we have seen a lot of customers who are, who have installed the sensor and says, Oh, something must be wrong with it because it reads a hundred percent. No, it's just filled with liquid because your capacity is low.

That sensor, instead of being up on the roof, it should be down closer to the evaporator. Is that correct? Exactly. I can picture it in my head because I, over the years of doing refrigeration, you know, it's now, it took me a long time, 20 years. But now when I talk about, I don't even know the sensor, you know, I've never seen the sensor before, but I can visualize it where it should be in there.

And I think that just years of years of experience where I talked to a lot of newer technicians like Trevor, there's just so much to know there is. There is, but if you find people just like Henrik and you ask them questions, you find a mentor or a coach out there, you ask them lots of good questions, you know, and try to absorb as much as possible. Cause it takes seven to 11 times to really grasp something like, yeah, this is not the first time Henrik explained this. You know what I mean?

And Canada regulations are going to come up, but what are you seeing some trends at the OEM level right now? Because you sell to all of them all around the world in different parts of the world. What are some of the trends you've been seeing?

Not CO2 as it has been the last few years. It's also going in direction of propane and isoprotein and other natural gases. And that's one of the thing I see, and I think there will be, they will be introducing more compressors and more products towards this. I think that's one of the biggest thing. And of course, we, us is also a market and we see that it's slowly starting to, to change direction towards natural refrigerants, which is a very good thing.

Not CO2 as it has been the last few years. It's also going in direction of propane and isoprotein and other natural gases. And that's one of the thing I see, and I think there will be, they will be introducing more compressors and more products towards this. I think that's one of the biggest thing. And of course, we, us is also a market and we see that it's slowly starting to, to change direction towards natural refrigerants, which is a very good thing.

So that's also why I, I have increased frequency visiting to us because I see there's a great potential for our products because we have been on the market for natural strength for, for many, many years and have. We have great knowledge about that, so we can maybe help, help the transition.

So it's all 95 percent of it. I've seen it in sales. CO2. I know it's, you guys do it in ammonia and industrial, but what about for smaller systems? What, do you have product offerings for like just small commercial stuff, or is it more on the supermarket and industrial side? What other offerings do you have?

Cause I know this is a big toll on manufacturers. You know, I talk with technicians in our programs about it. I talk, I've been talking with regulars. I used to work for a manufacturer and I talked about it for years and years, but what, what kind of. Development needs to go into that. Cause I'm sure Aruba, you've been a part of that in the last Hendrick next, but do your products need to be designed a bit differently for hydrocarbons?

Cause I know this is a big toll on manufacturers. You know, I talk with technicians in our programs about it. I talk, I've been talking with regulars. I used to work for a manufacturer and I talked about it for years and years, but what, what kind of. Development needs to go into that. Cause I'm sure Aruba, you've been a part of that in the last Hendrick next, but do your products need to be designed a bit differently for hydrocarbons?

So, so what we need to do is we need to. Be sure to calibrate it correctly in the software and to design the hardware so it can go into this specific refrigerant.

Yeah. The pico pecora is is the measure for the capacitance in, in the capacitor. So it depends on, on the fluids you have in your capacitor and. Different fluids has different dielectric constants, and that's. A number of for how, how it impacts the the capacitance in a capacitor. So water has a very high dielectric constant.

It's super easy to measure. Ammonia is pretty good. But as soon as you reach oil. Which CO2 is actually the worst or most difficult one to, to detect? And that means, sorry, was that sorry? Was that oil or CO2 or a mix of both? I CO2 is, is the most difficult Okay. To, to detect. And hydrocarbons, propane butane is pretty similar.

Okay. So, to detect these liquids, you need larger sensors because basically the, to get the same output, you need a sensor, which is 10 times larger to detect CO2 compared to ammonia.

Yeah, this is, this is a thing that I've talked about with a lot of technicians in my CO2 program, because I've heard it from the manufacturer that use your, Components. You can't just take a sensor and just use it for oil or use it for CO2 or use it for ammonia. There are specific sensors that's needed.

And then if you mix that oil or mix that with something else, it may change the capacitance. You want to talk about that, where you've seen issues in the field where. Maybe the wrong sensor was used or a mixture of because the big ones oil for me, because a lot of manufacturers, I see them, they're in their oil separators or in the reservoir doing that, that sensing.

If you have two different, if someone mixes the oil, which we don't want. The mixed oil, you know what I mean, POE 68 or POE 85 or whatever. We don't want them to mix the oil, but will that change the capacitance or the way it senses if someone, if that happens.

Then it gets gets difficult because it's all about this dielectric constant, which changes with which liquid you have, but also with the temperature. So and if you mix stuff, pardon? You

If you go from, from above the freezing point to, to way below. So it's really sensitive to and the detection is, is sensitive to, to temperature. So there are some challenges in the market. Yeah, that's interesting. You have to know

You know, too much, you're overcharged and it could cause higher pressures. And then you can lose, lose charge out of your pressure relief too low. While we're not maintaining any of the systems and we can't, you know, we can't pull the heat out of the product or what, what whatnot. And then usually I.

There's a range that I've always see, you know, I see it's like between, say, 30 Fahrenheit or minus one Celsius up to maybe 40 or, you know, 10 degrees Celsius, not 10, like eight degrees Celsius. But you're saying if you start to get colder, that's going to start to affect the capacitance and all of a sudden the sensor may think there's liquid there and maybe there's not, is that what you mean as it starts to get colder and colder?

There's a range that I've always see, you know, I see it's like between, say, 30 Fahrenheit or minus one Celsius up to maybe 40 or, you know, 10 degrees Celsius, not 10, like eight degrees Celsius. But you're saying if you start to get colder, that's going to start to affect the capacitance and all of a sudden the sensor may think there's liquid there and maybe there's not, is that what you mean as it starts to get colder and colder?

Oil will be at the bottom and the CO2 will be at the top. But when we get colder, CO2 will be at the bottom and, and, and, um, oil at the top. And so this would be like, okay, now it's not sensing the right liquid. Is that correct? Exactly. Okay. This is, this is, I'm learning so much. This is awesome. Oh man. So, so that's very, very interesting.

Oil will be at the bottom and the CO2 will be at the top. But when we get colder, CO2 will be at the bottom and, and, and, um, oil at the top. And so this would be like, okay, now it's not sensing the right liquid. Is that correct? Exactly. Okay. This is, this is, I'm learning so much. This is awesome. Oh man. So, so that's very, very interesting.

What are your thoughts then on a secondary system? So now cascade system or secondary co2 system. This is where we're running co2 a lot colder going out to do low temp applications. For example, do you have to design those? What are some things that manufacturers now will need to look for or technicians when they're doing a lower temperature, or is there a certain range or what are the things that people need to watch out for that oil, that the temperature of the oil and the liquid ratio?

So you need that oil to make sure we get out of the vessel somehow with some sort of orifice or, or make sure that you get the oil out of the vessel. But what are some things that manufacturers now will need to look for or technicians when they're doing a lower temperature? CO2 application,

So you need that oil to make sure we get out of the vessel somehow with some sort of orifice or, or make sure that you get the oil out of the vessel. But what are some things that manufacturers now will need to look for or technicians when they're doing a lower temperature? CO2 application, do they have to get a specific sensor for that? Like the manufacturer, how I have to get a specific sensor or do they just use the standard sensors and just have to pay attention for that? I don't know if I asked that question. Yeah.

Thanks. Yeah, it's, it's only the oil, which can be tricky. It can be very stiff and, and difficult to, to return if it's coming out of an evaporator at, at very low temperatures. Thanks. Yeah, it's, it's only the oil, which can be tricky. It can be very stiff and, and difficult to, to return if it's coming out of an evaporator at, at very low temperatures.

And that means that the, that solid state real, it's a solid state relay in there. Is that correct in the, some of them, some of them. So this example, I saw say, but it was flashing because it didn't make. The continuity wasn't correct, but what happened, they said that moisture got inside there in between the little cone.

There's a little cone that goes into the rod, and that's where it's sensing. If you got over 50%, I think it's 50 percent or 60 percent continuity. It'll say, okay, we have liquid or not. What's your recommendation when that does happen? Cause there's a lot of moisture. There. I was always, I was told you some thermal paste or but what's your recommendation if moisture gets in there, they take it off, they wipe it off.

They put the, the head, the HB products head back on that electrical part, back onto the mechanical part. What's your recommendation? If that does happen in these really cold and human applications. They put the, the head, the HB products head back on that electrical part, back onto the mechanical part. What's your recommendation? If that does happen in these really cold and human applications.

And if you have one of those, and it's. Condensating you take the electronic unit off and you dry it and you put some grease same stuff you use for, for taps and stuff Electrical terminals, dielectric grease. Yeah, exactly. So to, to make sure that that water can't really get in. But of course you, you need to make sure that your, the small cone doesn't have this grease on because it need to have electrical contact and then you can solve the problem, but, but the real solution is to get a product which is suited for these condensating conditions.

And if you have one of those, and it's. Condensating you take the electronic unit off and you dry it and you put some grease same stuff you use for, for taps and stuff Electrical terminals, dielectric grease. Yeah, exactly. So to, to make sure that that water can't really get in. But of course you, you need to make sure that your, the small cone doesn't have this grease on because it need to have electrical contact and then you can solve the problem, but, but the real solution is to get a product which is suited for these condensating conditions.

Yeah. So especially if. If you go to, to the East warm, humid conditions and CO2 systems, you will have a lot of conversation. So, so we, we have, we have a double program for, for, for most of the sensors for, for cold and for, for not cold conditions. And. If you look at, at oil to oil switches, they're normally in, in, in hot condition, warm conditions in, in a machine room. But sensors, especially for CO2, they are, they are dripping wet.

All this stuff is in your troubleshooting guides too. Cause I have them in our training programs. I'm like, here, read the manual. Let's walk through it step by step. If you're working on these products, so you really understand. Cause a lot of the time it's. It just, it's taking that signal and that signal, sending them back to a control board.

And that control board is doing something with it. It could be turning something on, shutting something off. So you really need to understand the sequence of operation. You guys build the components. You don't build the strategy on how it's supposed to work, you know? So this is where I talk with technicians.

You're going to work with that manufacturer who are using these components and make sure that it aligns to what it's supposed to be doing. Because what you, what you got, like what the product HP products, the ones that I've seen is that it's going to do something. There's going to be, it's an on or off or a sensitive sensor doing something, but that's going back to a controller to notify another piece of equipment to turn on or off or notify of alarm, you know, say, Hey, we haven't seen liquid here for 25 minutes.

You're going to work with that manufacturer who are using these components and make sure that it aligns to what it's supposed to be doing. Because what you, what you got, like what the product HP products, the ones that I've seen is that it's going to do something. There's going to be, it's an on or off or a sensitive sensor doing something, but that's going back to a controller to notify another piece of equipment to turn on or off or notify of alarm, you know, say, Hey, we haven't seen liquid here for 25 minutes.

There there's something should be, or we got liquid here for over 30 minutes. This is not right. We should not have oil in the oil separator for this long. There is something going on. We need to investigate. And that's in the control side of the manufacturer who builds that piece of equipment. Ruba, I got another question.

What are some of the things that you're super excited about? Because the industry's changing even since you've been in the industry, we've, we've, we've seen it evolving and changing. What are some of the things you're excited about for HB product or even the refrigeration industry in general?

This is what I tell technicians, it's in a lot, a lot of other things, but. If we can do something to help the planet and help ourselves help our water, help our air, we should be doing it. We shouldn't be waiting. And if we have to be the first ones to, to push for that, that's important because at the end of the day, if our stuff, we didn't have leaky systems, we would still, I tell it, we'd still be using the original refrigerants, you know, R12s and 502s.

It just doesn't happen in refrigeration. So the mistakes happen or failures happen, rub throughs happen, and you're going to have leaks. But now we know there's a lot of potential issues and harm that's coming to the planet and people. So let's make sure that we reduce the leaks and go on refrigerants that don't, don't have those in it.

So you can, you can control your system based on data instead of just guessing. And I love that about it. And. I would also say, but, you know, with this capacitive measurement principle, I would, I would say that our founder Michael, who is a founder of the company and also the one who have invented most of our product is probably the guy who knows most about how to use this principle to implement to, to sensors.

That's the part I'm very proud of as well. And we have also used that to develop this, default sensor that Henrik mentioned briefly that where we can actually measure the ice buildup on the fins of the evaporator in a, in a, in a freezing warehouse.

You know, defrosting all the time because then you put in heat to a place where you're trying to remove heat. Yeah, no, I know. And we've done this like here, here in Canada, like we've done heat reclaim in supermarket for, for decades. When I was 20 years ago, when I was in the field, I was doing heat reclaim, heat recovery tried to have better defrost strategies, but you're right.

Like. 20 years ago, 30 years, we were just throwing a lot of the heat out just to the environment. Let's just throw it out instead of reusing it. Now, 20 years later, we're trying to, how do we use as much of this energy as possible to, to benefit the end user, benefit the system, reduce energy and reduce work, you know, and that's, that's like, exactly.

Like. 20 years ago, 30 years, we were just throwing a lot of the heat out just to the environment. Let's just throw it out instead of reusing it. Now, 20 years later, we're trying to, how do we use as much of this energy as possible to, to benefit the end user, benefit the system, reduce energy and reduce work, you know, and that's, that's like, exactly.

I really, really like that. Henrik, how about you? And we're going to get into that defrost center. I'd like to learn a little bit more about that. But what are some of the things you're excited about, Henrik, for the refrigeration industry?

We can save a lot of energy and this for his refrigeration business is super conservative. I know they should have course built systems, which work forever. But they should not use so much energy as as they do. Yeah. I think consumption is enormous.

We can save a lot of energy and this for his refrigeration business is super conservative. I know they should have course built systems, which work forever. But they should not use so much energy as as they do. Yeah. I think consumption is enormous.

with these new strategies. Does it cost more? And this is the thing. Sometimes it costs more upfront costs, but you get a, a huge savings over 20, 25 year period. And it's hard to take I had a conversation last week. You got big retailers where you got ops costs and cap costs, cap CapEx costs and operational costs.

And they don't always talk to each other. You know what I mean? Oh, well, it's going to cost more different budgets. Yeah. Two different budgets. Right. So. So when I'm talking with technicians in our program in our trainings, like you really want to understand the customer you're working at at that time and try to figure out the best solution.

And they don't always talk to each other. You know what I mean? Oh, well, it's going to cost more different budgets. Yeah. Two different budgets. Right. So. So when I'm talking with technicians in our program in our trainings, like you really want to understand the customer you're working at at that time and try to figure out the best solution. And sometimes, you know, they don't want to go with the best solution because it's too expensive maybe. So you got to come up with multiple options. So that's where this may come into play.

But also it's the defrost. I want to learn just a little bit about the defrost strategy because this is something I learned about 10 years ago. It's not, it's not new people trying to do a defrost strategy. So instead of, you know, like Ruba said every eight hours, every six hours, whatever it is, and it's just time if it needs a defrost or not.

It's going into defrost so I'd love to hear a little bit more, how, how that works for this new, new product. Like, how does that defrost work or demand defrost and people have smart defrost or, or strategy defrost. There's a lot of different terminology here out there, but can you, could you explain how that does work and what applications you'd see it in Henry?

Yes, it's, it's a capacitive sensor, which is put on the evaporator. It's simply an electric stainless steel wire put between some of the fins and it detects how much frost you have on the fins. And it provides an analog signal linear to the amount of frost on the fins. So for, if you have a cold store with, with five evaporators, you get a number.

On, on each evaporator and you can defrost them as they, as they get frozen. So you can, if. Typically, the one close to the door will freeze up much earlier than, than the other one. And you, you will, you will just defrost it when it has a reasonable layer of, of frost, whereas the one in the background of your, of your cold storm, maybe should have a defrost every two days.

The one in the front. Could be defrosted every three hours in, in summertime and every seven hours in, in wintertime. And so it will. Depend on how much moisture you have reaching the evaporator and not just average number put in by, by the one who installed the evaporator. And, and when, when looking at, at at, at benefits and costs and so on, we, we normally aim for.

The one in the front. Could be defrosted every three hours in, in summertime and every seven hours in, in wintertime. And so it will. Depend on how much moisture you have reaching the evaporator and not just average number put in by, by the one who installed the evaporator. And, and when, when looking at, at at, at benefits and costs and so on, we, we normally aim for.

At least reducing the number of defrost cycles by 50 percent compared to, to a conventional timer based system. And that makes a huge impact.

And one of the things is just like you talked about, these two cases get a lot of moisture inside or a lot of air infiltration, and they start to freeze up a lot faster than the other ones. But when they defrost, they all defrost at the same. Time. So when someone's designing these systems, just say if those five evaporators that you talked about are on the same circuit, do you recommend having solenoids on the suction lines or for those systems for those defrosts?

And one of the things is just like you talked about, these two cases get a lot of moisture inside or a lot of air infiltration, and they start to freeze up a lot faster than the other ones. But when they defrost, they all defrost at the same. Time. So when someone's designing these systems, just say if those five evaporators that you talked about are on the same circuit, do you recommend having solenoids on the suction lines or for those systems for those defrosts?

Because and what I'm referring to is more of a hot gas defrost system versus electrical defrost system as well.

So this is why you want to work with the manufacturer, work with the experts like Henrik to find out more final thoughts for, for the industry. What is Ruba first from you? What are one or two tips? You could give to say a technician or say one of your manufacturer that you work with, um, about the refrigeration industry.

So one or two tips, because you've been in it for a long time, you've seen a lot of things someone just starting out in industry, if they're starting out as a technician or starting out at the manufacturer, what is some advice you could give them? So one or two tips, because you've been in it for a long time, you've seen a lot of things someone just starting out in industry, if they're starting out as a technician or starting out at the manufacturer, what is some advice you could give them?

There's fewer and fewer people there. And it doesn't matter which country I go to, I hear the same thing. We don't have enough technician. We don't have any skilled workers. I know countries in Europe who started to import is maybe not the right word, but getting people from Indonesia and training them by themselves and teaching them the skills.

So they have some So, so if you, if you are into the field, then just start educating yourself and a good place to start with, I know a guy who is very good at teaching people. Yeah. So, so yeah, I, I think it's it's important because as I said, it's a, it's a, it's a, there's a big lag out there for, for industry technicians.

So they have some So, so if you, if you are into the field, then just start educating yourself and a good place to start with, I know a guy who is very good at teaching people. Yeah. So, so yeah, I, I think it's it's important because as I said, it's a, it's a, it's a, there's a big lag out there for, for industry technicians. So yeah. Educate yourself. Educate yourself. I love that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like electronics. I talked about this, like I said, in a lot of our supermarket programs or CO2 program, it's electronics, it's controls, ZFD, you need a computer now, not, you know, not all the time, but this is, you know, we're using our phone to troubleshoot systems today. You know what I mean? We're using computers, we're, we're on a control system and we're reading trend graphs, just like you guys were talking about there, the, the, the defrost, you know, smarter demand defrost. Let's do it. You're going to watch it and he's, Oh, well, it's frosting up. Why did it frost up this much?

Is that, does it something happen to that element? Is it wired correctly? And I think, I think going forward, we need to understand more electronics. And this is a lot of, it can be intimidating. You know what I mean? You guys know, you see it all, we'll go to an industrial system or a CO2 system and there's controls everywhere and wires and their system sensors everywhere, and a lot of the technicians are like, ah, it's just so overwhelming.

It, it can be. And I was there too, 20 years ago. But if you step back and look at the bigger picture, how does this really work? Well, we're moving energy, you know, we're moving heat from one place to the other. And when you really understand that, how it moves there, well, what does it need to do to move there, you know, and, and then just work your way through that.

Oh, this was a great conversation. I know we'll do it again. How can people find out more about HB products or find out more about you guys?

Oh, this was a great conversation. I know we'll do it again. How can people find out more about HB products or find out more about you guys? Rooba: Yeah. So we have our homepage, HB products. dk. And then we are also very active on LinkedIn and we have a lot of good content in YouTube, especially small troubleshooting videos and explainer explainer videos about our products. So, yeah. Awesome. Henrik: Well, I want to thank you

You know what I mean? Maybe you will see it out there and then maybe it'll give you. An idea of how you can implement a product just like that into a system to really help your customer at the end of the day. I want to thank you guys so much for taking the time to chat with me and look forward to seeing you at more events, Ruba, more conversations with you, Henrik, on the technical side.

And this is it. It's growing your knowledge, learning and growing, taking the time to invest. If you liked this episode, please share it, like it, comment on it. This is how more people find out about it. We're trying to uplift the refrigeration industry to really help more people. And as always, let's get a conversation going.

And this is it. It's growing your knowledge, learning and growing, taking the time to invest. If you liked this episode, please share it, like it, comment on it. This is how more people find out about it. We're trying to uplift the refrigeration industry to really help more people. And as always, let's get a conversation going. Everyone.