for me, , it's relatively simple. It is the only non toxic, non flammable sub 150 GWP refrigerant that is a waste product. And such is cheap and has relatively low in body carbon. So at this point, what's the only one that eliminates all those concerns. And that for me is, is CO2. And that's fundamentally why I'm such a CO2 zealot at the moment because it just ticks all the boxes.
I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
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Welcome to another CO2 experts live. So pumped up that you, each week you come back and you trust in the knowledge and the people that we bring to share knowledge from all over the planet.
And if you're listening on the podcast, don't forget to share this with someone else. If you hear something that It really intrigues you reach out, you know, we're here to help grow your knowledge. Send me an email info at refrigeration, mentor. com. We're here to grow your CO2 knowledge and really refrigeration knowledge.
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We're here to uplift industry by bringing you the experts from everywhere around the world and their different knowledge. Different experiences and different way of seeing things because the way refrigeration is the same everywhere around it works the same thermodynamics works the way the same, but the way we look at it could be a little bit different.
So this is why getting perspective from different people and coming up with your own ideas and and putting it together is so important. This is how we make the industry better. This is how we we transition and we move forward on. I, I'm super excited today I've heard lots of great things about Connor the stuff that he's done in the industry over the last couple of decades and consistently continues to try to push the, the boundaries of his thoughts and his learnings.
And we're going to be diving into this transition from really HFC into CO2 or natural refrigerant, because this is important. There is a massive shift happening. Around the world and different people have different opinions, you know, if it doesn't leak, if it leaks, if it, you know, if we use this, we use that and naturals, yes, naturals, no.
And we're going to be diving into this transition from really HFC into CO2 or natural refrigerant, because this is important. There is a massive shift happening. Around the world and different people have different opinions, you know, if it doesn't leak, if it leaks, if it, you know, if we use this, we use that and naturals, yes, naturals, no.
And everyone has their own opinions and, but it all comes back down to , data, you know what I mean? And how we. Share that, that knowledge together. Cause collectively we got to work together to make our industry better. That's why we're always trying to uplift it. So super excited about this conversation with Connor, because he has so much knowledge and experience with in thermodynamics and all the engineering he's done over the past 20 years.
Connor, welcome to CO2 experts. How you doing brother?
Well, I don't know how to follow that introduction there Trevor no, it's good to be here. Good to be here. And hopefully hopefully of, yeah, I might be able to share something. Yeah. Obviously you have so many experts on currently. So hopefully I'll be able to add something new, you know, or or, or a slightly different perspective. Hopefully not too too too much of a zealot maybe, but either way.
No, this is it. This is what we're, this is what the conversations are about. We need to have more of these conversations right. Because you have a ton of experience in thermodynamics. This is what your background is, where some listeners have more technical backgrounds, some have more sales background, but at the end of the day, we're all in refrigeration trying to work towards a progressive industry.
No, this is it. This is what we're, this is what the conversations are about. We need to have more of these conversations right. Because you have a ton of experience in thermodynamics. This is what your background is, where some listeners have more technical backgrounds, some have more sales background, but at the end of the day, we're all in refrigeration trying to work towards a progressive industry. So I appreciate you taking the time to do this.
So, so yeah, when I say, when I say, when we, when we discuss this, we're going to look at like the, the, the three things of of really what we learned about when we, when, when certainly the UK was starting it's, it's transition to to so I was at a, at a, at a plant manufacturer who sadly, sadly now passed about 20 years ago now, Yeah, I know it's, it's, it's it's a meme of a Sega Megadrive is no longer a 19 year old console that's a PlayStation 3 is like, Oh my God, that's that is too old.
But but yeah, so that's where I started at with, with HSEs with R4 for a designing plants and selling plant for to various UK end users and and and and And the company made, yeah HFC compressors and when CO2 was coming onto the scene, well, we didn't really have an offering for, for transcritical anyway.
But but yeah, so that's where I started at with, with HSEs with R4 for a designing plants and selling plant for to various UK end users and and and and And the company made, yeah HFC compressors and when CO2 was coming onto the scene, well, we didn't really have an offering for, for transcritical anyway.
But so we did a lot of things about modeling, et cetera, all, all in the best faith, all in the best faith. All of the best information, but well, frankly, some of the, some of the assumptions that we made or in our models, we're just, we're just, we're just wrong, I think. And so that's where we'll go with like, what was the first thing I was wrong about?
If you keep the refrigerants leaks and check an HFC system will have a lower carbon footprint than a CO2 system. And yeah, I mean, that was, that was a thought, you know back in the day, you know, CO2 compressors are certainly relatively inefficient. Well, they've they've improved, they've improved year on year and et cetera.
But we always thought that, yeah, or, you know, just, you know, stop, stop leaking, you know, and and once you do that, your total environmental warming impact which. A lot of your, your listeners will be familiar with, but if you, they're not, that's taking your, your refrigerant leaks. Your fugitive emissions were bad.
But we always thought that, yeah, or, you know, just, you know, stop, stop leaking, you know, and and once you do that, your total environmental warming impact which. A lot of your, your listeners will be familiar with, but if you, they're not, that's taking your, your refrigerant leaks. Your fugitive emissions were bad.
The, the scope one emissions and adding them to the scope two emissions, that's your, you know, indirect electricity consumption. And in the main, there's a couple of issues that, you know, I realized a few, you know, more than a few years ago now that, that Yeah. That were just incorrect,
so, okay. I, I like to, I, I like to talk about that because this is still a thought in a lot of people that I've talked to. They're like, if we just keep the, the refrigerant in these HFC systems, they're going to have a way less carbon footprint across, across them. And there's still a lot of people I talk to like that. All we have to do Trevor for these newer for just keep it in the system.
I don't want to be a pessimist. I like, I like to think I'm a realist, you know or pragmatist.
And let's say you do keep it all in the system. It's not going to have the risk of catastrophic leaks. You're still going to have the risks of, let's say the risks of of service losses of disposal losses and all the upstream losses. Yeah. I mean, if anybody's checked well, Cameroon's, uh, sustainability report for last year, their Skype one emissions and, you know, just from the processes, let alone the fugitive missions were in the, well, I'm quite from memory now, but in the, in the millions of tons, I mean, it's, it's the size of a small country and it's, all that, but.
And let's say you do keep it all in the system. It's not going to have the risk of catastrophic leaks. You're still going to have the risks of, let's say the risks of of service losses of disposal losses and all the upstream losses. Yeah. I mean, if anybody's checked well, Cameroon's, uh, sustainability report for last year, their Skype one emissions and, you know, just from the processes, let alone the fugitive missions were in the, well, I'm quite from memory now, but in the, in the millions of tons, I mean, it's, it's the size of a small country and it's, all that, but.
I think, frankly You cannot, in my opinion, I will get, get into this later. In my opinion, you've got to go with the average. You've got to go with what does the actual big picture look like? I'm short of, short of a, of a, of, of frankly, a massive, massive step change. And we're talking, you know, you, you just not going to be able to get particularly a 5 percent annual leakage rate on average.
So. Just looking at this, this slide, this was a, this was a part of the presentation I gave to the IOR or two years ago now, three years ago now, just regarding what was a certain view you know, back in back in 2010 and, and it looked like this effectively, you had ER444A, you know, And the 438, it's a, frankly, got a bit of a bad rap.
So. Just looking at this, this slide, this was a, this was a part of the presentation I gave to the IOR or two years ago now, three years ago now, just regarding what was a certain view you know, back in back in 2010 and, and it looked like this effectively, you had ER444A, you know, And the 438, it's a, frankly, got a bit of a bad rap.
It's a great refrigerant. You know, it's low, it's got low discharge temperature. It's got high volumetric capacity. It's got Nafal glide. You know, it's, it's great. The only problem is, and it's non flammable, it's non toxic. The only problem is it's, you know, based on our 438, which, and our, yeah, and the R125, which is incredibly global warming.
And so I say the company I work for, yeah, sort of a spearheading the movement towards, you know, the R407Fs and and A's, well, A's really, and an F came later. And yeah, you could chop your, your your, your, your direct emissions, your leaky emissions in half. And that, that was seen to be a good thing. And if you could do that, and if you could keep it in the system, you would CO2 hands down. Even though CO2 had no scope on emissions, it was still quite energy intensive at the time.
I still hear that. And I hear like, well, there's no such thing as apples to apples comparison, you know, on these white papers. There's always a like, next to no CO2 versus the 404, the HFOs. I still hear that. And I hear like, well, there's no such thing as apples to apples comparison, you know, on these white papers. There's always a like, next to no CO2 versus the 404, the HFOs. And there's always like, there's never an apples to apples comparison. I hear this a lot.
It's, and it's, I'd say I'd agree with that. It's, it's actually a struggle, very much a struggle to get an Apple for Apple comparison, especially now that, you know I believe it's like in America, they've got the snap items, which now brings in charge limited systems.
You have all certain GWPs, same over in the UK and Europe, you know, it's like, how now, how, how now, how do you now compare a centralized system realistically with a decentralized system? You know? Both are going to operate significantly different at part load. Whilst they're not, whilst none of them I would say would be inefficient, you know, a centralised refrigeration system should offer efficiency savings that aren't easily modelled.
You know, you know, certainly not, not to the, you know, unless you're, you know, dynamically modelling it and also, also putting an awful lot of time into your diversity profiles. And once you get to that point, it's like, well, Is the level of precision I'm going to get to get out of this going to be worth the time I put into it and it's yeah, so it is a struggle a lot of a lot of things I see are aren't necessarily life like, but it's a case of taking it down to base principles, taking what you know, and and making the best, making the best educated, you know, assessment you can really so, but yeah, so this was like my, my view in 2010
You know, you know, certainly not, not to the, you know, unless you're, you know, dynamically modelling it and also, also putting an awful lot of time into your diversity profiles. And once you get to that point, it's like, well, Is the level of precision I'm going to get to get out of this going to be worth the time I put into it and it's yeah, so it is a struggle a lot of a lot of things I see are aren't necessarily life like, but it's a case of taking it down to base principles, taking what you know, and and making the best, making the best educated, you know, assessment you can really so, but yeah, so this was like my, my view in 2010
Yeah, and yeah, if you manage leaks with 5 percent ALR and your leakage rate, you are, you're better than transcriptable CO2. But, leakage rates are generally underestimated. So, the BRA, the British Refrigeration Association's Chewy Best Guide to, Guide to Calculating Chewy, which is a great guide, incidentally, it's got a lot, a lot, a lot in it, gives you the sectorial factors for new systems to best practice standards. And for commercial DX, It gives you a 5% annual leakage rate. Yeah.
Which it's not impossible. Dunno, it's not happening. But that's, yeah. It's Which it's not impossible. Dunno, it's not happening. But that's, yeah. It's Conor: not impossible, but Conor: it's not happening. It's, it's not happen. Yeah. It's not, it's not happening. And, and I think to get those, you'll, you'll going to have to go to almost a very decentralized system as well in, in some respects. Yeah. Very close coupled. Very, very simple. Unless yeah, but
it's less field piping. That's it. Let's feel it because we see our, our fridges in our houses, you know, small commercial, they leak way less than anything that is put together. Yes, indeed. Indeed. Just more well raises, things like that.
And the other, the other point was that.
Right. And granted, you know, at the time it wasn't really measured, but the problem, there was no stated probability factor for catastrophic failure. Yeah. No. And it's like, well, well, we need to actually include that because certainly if you're looking at a if you're looking at an estate management where you've got, let's say you've got 1500 stalls, you could have 1500 systems or more 1 percent leakage rate is, you know, is I say 1 percent catastrophic failure is, yeah, 15 stalls go pop every year and you've, you've got to factor that in, you know, it's for sure.
Right. And granted, you know, at the time it wasn't really measured, but the problem, there was no stated probability factor for catastrophic failure. Yeah. No. And it's like, well, well, we need to actually include that because certainly if you're looking at a if you're looking at an estate management where you've got, let's say you've got 1500 stalls, you could have 1500 systems or more 1 percent leakage rate is, you know, is I say 1 percent catastrophic failure is, yeah, 15 stalls go pop every year and you've, you've got to factor that in, you know, it's for sure.
And if you don't, then that, well, yeah, you're, you're not, you're not going to, not going to get there. So actual leakage rates you know, range from, yeah, 10 to 30%. You can get some better, you know? But again, in my opinion, you've got to take the average. Yeah. It's all, it's all very well. Yeah. If, if you've got one system, you've got a dedicated onsite engineer.
Yeah. Maybe, maybe you can achieve that. Yeah. Who's paying for that? Yeah. Who wants to pay for that? Yeah. It's, and this is the thing, you know, in, in, in, in, you know, just going by the the EPAs items that they've got, they've got today annual leakage rates of 25%. It's just it's just quite, quite a lot.
And obviously there was Kimura's post yesterday saying that some transcritical CO2 systems have apparently a hundred percent annual leakage rate every year. But even if that's the case. It's like we're talking, we're talking, we're talking, we're not even talking fractures. We are talking decimal places of the, of the direct carbon footprint from fugitive emissions.
And obviously there was Kimura's post yesterday saying that some transcritical CO2 systems have apparently a hundred percent annual leakage rate every year. But even if that's the case. It's like we're talking, we're talking, we're talking, we're not even talking fractures. We are talking decimal places of the, of the direct carbon footprint from fugitive emissions.
Yeah. It's regardless of what you choose. So that's the first point leakage rates. Back in 2010 were generally underestimated. And it took a company called company to my mind anyway, a a a an advocacy group called the EIA the Environmental investigation environment Investigation Agency to actually go through a lot of the end users and just ask them and then pilling them about their about their leakage rates.
And and yeah, so, so some end users got down to about, I think 11% on average. And it's like, yeah, that's double, that's double the best practice.
Yeah. That is the average, the summer is going to be 40 or 50. Some are going to be. Maybe six or 11 is probably the low. I don't know if it's average.
Yeah. What if you've got one, one, one percent of your stores going pop every year, which I think is is relatively conservative then then yeah, I mean, and it's just
something that we've known for decades. It's not new. Like even when I, 20 years ago when I was in, we had leaks and we'd valve opened by accident and someone didn't pipe that in a Reno and all of a sudden you lose a big charge. something that we've known for decades. It's not new. Like even when I, 20 years ago when I was in, we had leaks and we'd valve opened by accident and someone didn't pipe that in a Reno and all of a sudden you lose a big charge.
Out of a system. And this happens, mistakes do happen. So it's not always that it's running. It could be on maintenance. I see Jeremy in the chat is preventative maintenance. So, you know, maybe they don't have people in that area that can even work on those types of equipment. You know, there's a lot of factors in there, but we all know that leak rates are higher than. Everybody talks about,
yes, yes, it's, it's all very, and it's all very well saying it's saying that we'll get leakage lower and can you get it, can you get it low enough? You need to get into low single figures
at best. And we're not saying that CO2 is leaking any better. It's bad. All of it. We don't want any refrigerants. Yeah, or a Jesse, we don't want any of them to leak. So that, that's the whole purpose of it. We should have no, we want no leakage on any type of refrigerants. Yeah, or a Jesse, we don't want any of them to leak. So that, that's the whole purpose of it. We should have no, we want no leakage on any type of refrigerants.
Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. And then the next point that I was wrong about was we generally overestimated loads. So our Chewy's, our Chewy calculations, or certainly mine, I will say mine, I'll own it.
They were based on, on basically peak day loads, peak day duties. You know, you've, you're assuming you've got your cold store in a 25 degree ambient all day, which it's, You know, certainly in the UK, it's not. You're assuming that you're always at climate class three on your refrigerator display cases.
That's a 25 degrees C ambient and a 60 percent relative humidity in the, in the store. It's, it's barely what we call class zero. That's 20 degrees C and a 50 percent relative humidity. You've got night blinds. You've got, look, you're trading every, every single hour of the day. And it's, your lightings are on for, for half the day.
And. And that, at that point, it's like, well, if your duty is lower than you expected, then your indirect electricity is going to be because I'm just going to be lower. So just a quick trace from somewhere I took today from a chiller room an evaporator, it's like, that's how much the valve is opening.
And. And that, at that point, it's like, well, if your duty is lower than you expected, then your indirect electricity is going to be because I'm just going to be lower. So just a quick trace from somewhere I took today from a chiller room an evaporator, it's like, that's how much the valve is opening. And for, frankly, most of the day that valve is closed, you know, and it's like.
It's, it's just a, yeah, and that's the other thing we've not really considered that when you commissioned it, have it, has it been commissioned? So it's achieving its performance goals as in, is it keeping the, keeping the produce as cold as you said you would do? And if you, if it's, if you are great and if you're not to do so, it's potentially going to cost a bit more energy.
So, so again, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's. overestimating that load. I know rest and underestimating the leak. So just take that previous That previous assumption, this is what it looks like here. This is a, with a 5 percent leakage rates, full peak loads across, across an annual, well, this is a 12 year lifespan.
And we're looking at 8, 000 tons of CO2e over the course of 12 year lifespan. And let's say 7, 000 for CO2 and a bit shy under that. Let's take the, the average leakage rate that the EPA say of 25%. All of a sudden we're up at 14,000 tons for an R four four A system. Yeah. 10,000 for R four seven a and yeah, and slightly less for R four an F.
And we're looking at 8, 000 tons of CO2e over the course of 12 year lifespan. And let's say 7, 000 for CO2 and a bit shy under that. Let's take the, the average leakage rate that the EPA say of 25%. All of a sudden we're up at 14,000 tons for an R four four A system. Yeah. 10,000 for R four seven a and yeah, and slightly less for R four an F.
Yeah, if you, if you keep it in the system, it would be, it would be nominally better, but it's not, but let's also then just look at, let's just assume, I say, let's take the safe assumption that we're just operating at 70, 75 percent of our typical annual load. And it's like, well, in which case there is no difference between R47F.
And R44, R744, they are, you know, there's, there's virtually no difference, but there was another thing which I hadn't considered at the point is I hadn't looked forward. So I was doing all this things for, for, for, for my boss. In 2010, and I hadn't looked forward as to what's gonna happen in the next 10 years or 15 years.
And R44, R744, they are, you know, there's, there's virtually no difference, but there was another thing which I hadn't considered at the point is I hadn't looked forward. So I was doing all this things for, for, for, for my boss. In 2010, and I hadn't looked forward as to what's gonna happen in the next 10 years or 15 years.
And this is what happened, that that's the carbon intensity of the UK National Grid from 22 2002 to 2024. And effectively over the last 10 years, the carbon intensity is reduced by 60%. That's all due to coal being eliminated out the system. And a much wider, a mu, a much greater percentage of of of, of renewables and low carbon low to zero carbon generation coming again.
So if your energy consumption, if your energy costs is less carbon intense, then scope two emissions are going to be less. It didn't necessarily matter what you did at that point. You could have done nothing over that 10 years, and you would still be at, let's say. A third to a half of your typical carbon footprint, anybody, you know, regardless of what they did.
And that has the, that has the that's what makes this look like. So our typical assumption, and if we assume in 2020, 2030, where in the UK, that is, they're looking to get to 20 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour. This is what the the carbon footprints look like CO2. Everything else is dominated. by its annual leakage rate.
And that has the, that has the that's what makes this look like. So our typical assumption, and if we assume in 2020, 2030, where in the UK, that is, they're looking to get to 20 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour. This is what the the carbon footprints look like CO2. Everything else is dominated. by its annual leakage rate.
And that's 10%. So again, a percent better than the 11 percent previously previously stated on the range. It's, that's a a lot of carbon and that's before we even factor in scope three emissions and scope three and scope, scope, scope three and scope one are, will have. We'll just be of much more importance over the next 10 years, you know, certainly in the UK and Europe than, than, than scope to energy consumption will still be important.
It's still going to cost money, but if you're looking at it from a, from a, from, from, from environmental perspective, a carbon footprint perspective, net zero, how do you, how, how do you justify? Not going to, to CO2 and,
I was having a conversation with my friend Ian Toon out of Australia there last week or two weeks ago, and we were having a conversation of what's going on in Australia with CO2 and lots of people like, well, you know, it's way cheaper to run 404 than CO2.
I was having a conversation with my friend Ian Toon out of Australia there last week or two weeks ago, and we were having a conversation of what's going on in Australia with CO2 and lots of people like, well, you know, it's way cheaper to run 404 than CO2.
It's always hot here in Australia. And and he's been doing CO2 there for over a decade. And he's like, we got, you know, we thought in theoretically, it shows that. For our 404 a, or these HFCs would be less expensive in all our, in all the, the, the data in the compressor data, the modeling not counting the leakage rate, just the energy side of it.
And he said, we've seen not the opposite, but we seen that we were wrong. All these theoretical data saying that CO2 is going to be way more expensive and stay way more expensive. We were wrong because we were looking at the price, measuring the cost of it, and we were way off. It's a lot lower to run CO2 than we thought. And this is evolving though.
Yeah. Well, that's I say interesting. I'd say I don't know too much about Australia, but one of my biggest things is currently for, for certainly for distribution centers is linking or, or, or, or, or dovetailing. Synergy, I think is the, is, is the yeah, is the overused term of PV solar PV to, to CO2.
Yeah. Well, that's I say interesting. I'd say I don't know too much about Australia, but one of my biggest things is currently for, for certainly for distribution centers is linking or, or, or, or, or dovetailing. Synergy, I think is the, is, is the yeah, is the overused term of PV solar PV to, to CO2.
If you parlay any savings from from, from CO2 capital expenditure and operational expenditure into solar PV. Any inefficiency you have during the summer turns into a, into a net benefit as it were, because you don't have, you don't have that efficiency out. You have free low zero. You have low cost, low carbon energy to basically offset anything that you wouldn't do.
And that's one of the, one of the things that I look at when, when, when, when, when looking at say comparisons between ammonia and CO2, because yeah, that, that, that cost saving you can save. Well, yeah, on capital expenditures, you put it towards low carbon, low carbon energy generation, and you're getting a better payback, you know, you're getting lower carbon and it's, yeah, it's it's it's, yeah, it's, it's one of those things.
And that's one of the, one of the things that I look at when, when, when, when, when looking at say comparisons between ammonia and CO2, because yeah, that, that, that cost saving you can save. Well, yeah, on capital expenditures, you put it towards low carbon, low carbon energy generation, and you're getting a better payback, you know, you're getting lower carbon and it's, yeah, it's it's it's, yeah, it's, it's one of those things. Interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. So,
And thank you for being honest about what you, you thought then and how you would, you admit that you didn't see it the way you see it today. Right. And that's from data and learning and growing and understanding of what you're looking at, because we are still evolving.
This is what everyone needs to understand is this is not the final straw. It's CO2 is not the end be all at some point. We may not be needing any refrigerants at all for refrigeration. Who knows, you know what I mean? Where we're at. But right now we are evolving. Yes, indeed. I say
it's it's, it's, yeah, I mean, I, I, I do hold my hands up and say there was that there will be niches for, for F gases. There will be niches for F gases. But I, I struggle to find where they are for food retail, frankly. Yeah, yeah. I struggle. And then I say, just discussing the most important thing about heat recovery, because I just bear in mind that I, I try to bear in mind that again, as people learn. And so whilst this might be common knowledge in the UK, et cetera, yeah.
There will be niches for F gases. But I, I struggle to find where they are for food retail, frankly. Yeah, yeah. I struggle. And then I say, just discussing the most important thing about heat recovery, because I just bear in mind that I, I try to bear in mind that again, as people learn. And so whilst this might be common knowledge in the UK, et cetera, yeah.
And, and, and Europe it's going to be less common knowledge where transcritical CO2 isn't, isn't much of a, isn't, isn't that has that much market penetration, but the most important thing to know about heat recovery for CO2. Is that for transcriptal co2 it works so much better With a low fluid return temperature, because here, if we say, yeah, we, we got let's say we have any sort of fluid return temperature of say 40 degrees C, which is what we were originally were having during our first transition, we had we had.
Heat basically an entire refrigeration heating system heating our client's stores which ran off a 46 flow and 40 degree return to, to on floor heating and to, to cassettes, and it worked okay. And for our first trunks of of CT stores, we just adopted the same process.
Heat basically an entire refrigeration heating system heating our client's stores which ran off a 46 flow and 40 degree return to, to on floor heating and to, to cassettes, and it worked okay. And for our first trunks of of CT stores, we just adopted the same process.
As you can see here as well, we've got a flash gas proportion. If we bypass a gas school at that point, I'll say 60%. It's that's that's. It's a, it's efficient if you can do refrigeration and heat recovery at the same time, you know, but it could be more efficient and the, and as soon as you get your mechanical engineer or, you know, the mechanical building service engineer to design his, well, their heating emitters to, to, to, to, to, to allow a low fluid return temperature, you see, we basically increase our, you know, Heating work available by 25 to a third, and we reduce our, our work input to get further up there.
It's, it's, that is the peak. That is, that is the thing that I think anyone should take away from this, is effectively, you know, sweat the, sweat, sweat the heating emitter sizes. Don't, you know, Cause the amount of money you'll save is just is, is, is, is, it's a lot. And it's something that's yeah, we, we, anybody should do cause you do get a bit handicapped just regarding.
It's, it's, that is the peak. That is, that is the thing that I think anyone should take away from this, is effectively, you know, sweat the, sweat, sweat the heating emitter sizes. Don't, you know, Cause the amount of money you'll save is just is, is, is, is, it's a lot. And it's something that's yeah, we, we, anybody should do cause you do get a bit handicapped just regarding.
Okay. So this is good. And why don't we elaborate on that a little bit? Cause you're involved in a lot of this. How can we get it to that lower fluid return? Cause I've had these conversations. Well, the water comes out of the ground at this temperature. You know, for heat pumps, because I'm dealing with a lot of heat pump is way higher here. You know, I can't get the return or fluid down there. What are some strategies that you work with with people on trying to accomplish this?
So Trevor: I think, I think the main thing, I think the main thing I, I, I, I look at is it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's heat recovery. And that means it's, it's basically, it's free, it's free.
It's not, it's not a heat pump and, and yes, it's not necessarily free, frankly. It's not necessarily free, but it's, it's Nile free. So let's say we've got our, can I draw this here? Let's say in our, in our normal. With our normal saw here, we've, we, yeah, that's where we, that's where, that's where we go and we'll inject all that heat to atmosphere.
It's not, it's not a heat pump and, and yes, it's not necessarily free, frankly. It's not necessarily free, but it's, it's Nile free. So let's say we've got our, can I draw this here? Let's say in our, in our normal. With our normal saw here, we've, we, yeah, that's where we, that's where, that's where we go and we'll inject all that heat to atmosphere.
And then for that little, and this is what I, this is what I basically retell everybody for is if for that extra bits of work, that extra bit of book, you get all that. And that, and that's it. That's a pH is. You know, in some cases, you know, approach it in the high double figures. And in the worst cases, it's in the high.
It's, it's in the high single figures, you know, and I'd like to see any heat pump, any, any, any, what's the term, any dedicated heat pump, ground, ground, ground source. Yeah, obviously there'll be some water source heat pumps that can do that that could do that as cheaply. And as more carbon efficiently than that, and that's and that's what you, that, and that's what we need to, to basically, yeah, get through to the clients.
It's, it's in the high single figures, you know, and I'd like to see any heat pump, any, any, any, what's the term, any dedicated heat pump, ground, ground, ground source. Yeah, obviously there'll be some water source heat pumps that can do that that could do that as cheaply. And as more carbon efficiently than that, and that's and that's what you, that, and that's what we need to, to basically, yeah, get through to the clients.
It's, it's, we don't want to be chucking this out. So I bear a second where I've lost my cursor. We don't want to be checking this out to atmosphere. We want to be chucking it.
So here in Canada, even 20 years ago when I was doing, we were using heat recovery. Like it was, it's not something new here. We, you know but it's different with CO2 versus the 404 we were using. Do you want to talk a little bit about the differences when we did heat recovery for 404 system now with newer CO2 systems?
So, yeah, I mean, I mean, the main difference is, is that CO2. Not only can it control its head pressure, you know, you know, off, off the HPV, but it also has a much easier time of generating higher temperatures, a much easier time because obviously here we are, we're, we're, we're, we're not, we're not having a, we're not having a low, a relatively low temperature difference between, between our fluid temperatures and and our CO2 temperatures.
So, yeah, I mean, I mean, the main difference is, is that CO2. Not only can it control its head pressure, you know, you know, off, off the HPV, but it also has a much easier time of generating higher temperatures, a much easier time because obviously here we are, we're, we're, we're, we're not, we're not having a, we're not having a low, a relatively low temperature difference between, between our fluid temperatures and and our CO2 temperatures.
So that means not only can we have a much smaller much smaller well, DC piece in this case we have, we, we, it's just, it just gives you a much easier time. So for example, we'd be condensing up. on, on, on, on, on the units we were using, you know, up at, so, well, that was a thing actually but we, normally we should be, have been condensing up at say 48 degrees to 50 degrees, which, yeah, kind of, if we look at that on a, any compression selection software are supposedly great.
COP on HFCs starts dropping down like a roof just to just to ensure that we've got enough sufficient heating for the store You know to get that grade of heating up, but for co2 again, we just go to 75 80 85 no higher provided we can get the we can get the The heat the heat the heating the heating return fluid temperature, you know to 30 degrees or lower.
COP on HFCs starts dropping down like a roof just to just to ensure that we've got enough sufficient heating for the store You know to get that grade of heating up, but for co2 again, we just go to 75 80 85 no higher provided we can get the we can get the The heat the heat the heating the heating return fluid temperature, you know to 30 degrees or lower.
And that's not been a problem that I've ever seen. It's not been a problem I've ever seen. Yeah, once we do that, it's just more efficient in heat recovery and and it costs less. Now you have a much smaller, a much smaller uh, heat recovery plate.
Yeah. Incompatible. It's so one of the things is though, we get our most heat in the middle of the summer too. This is what they, you know what I mean? Well, generally all the heat in the summer, but in the middle of the winter, there's no heat generating. Our loads are low. It's really cold outside. Like today is. 30 Fahrenheit or zero, like just below zero Celsius, you know, minus one. And we're like, well, we don't, we're not generating any heat.
Now you have to turn on compressors and push that up into transcritical degree to generate that heat. Doesn't that cost money?
Well, in some ways, yes. But first, first of all, I say we've done a bit of a step change. In our, in our, in our, in our work with our clients. So previously, again, this combined refrigeration heating system that, that, that concept that went from HFC to CO2 had a false load on the on the, or just above, just above the the gas cooler.
Well, in some ways, yes. But first, first of all, I say we've done a bit of a step change. In our, in our, in our, in our work with our clients. So previously, again, this combined refrigeration heating system that, that, that concept that went from HFC to CO2 had a false load on the on the, or just above, just above the the gas cooler.
Yeah. We'll just blow it. But what happened was and yeah, when we needed additional. Load to overcome the structural heating load and the infiltration load we'd bring on that force load, which would bring on compressors and which would give us the heat to overcome basically the, the load of the negative heat load of the cabinets and the structural loads.
And it wasn't as a heat pump, as a heat pump in heat pump operation, it wasn't the most efficient way of doing things. It was very cost effective because we're still using the same compressors. We don't need to buy any more compressors. Yeah. We don't need to buy. Yes, we have to buy a false load evaporator, which you can, incorporate into a gas cooler.
But you don't have to position, you don't have to take up any more space. And it's, you know, it's, it's basically enables you to have a much higher utilization of existing assets. And that's, that really works well. But when you start putting doors onto onto cabinets, then then it's at that point where you got to consider that, that having a heat pump function, an air source heat pump function on your refrigeration.
But you don't have to position, you don't have to take up any more space. And it's, you know, it's, it's basically enables you to have a much higher utilization of existing assets. And that's, that really works well. But when you start putting doors onto onto cabinets, then then it's at that point where you got to consider that, that having a heat pump function, an air source heat pump function on your refrigeration.
System starts becoming less of, Oh, it's a little bit of efficiency, but it's good enough to, you know, instead of having a, instead of having a refrigerator, an efficient refrigeration pack that does a bit of heat air source, heat pumping inefficiently, relatively inefficiently. You've once you put doors onto the cabinets, you have a, if you didn't, if you don't change it, you have a refrigeration pack, you have a heat pump.
An inefficient heat pump that does a bit of refrigeration efficiently. If I've met, if I made sense, because the false load requires so much more duty. Heat the store than that, than the than, than the heat recovery can give. So what we, what we made the decision about four years ago now was to take off the air source heat pump mode off the combined heating with systems.
An inefficient heat pump that does a bit of refrigeration efficiently. If I've met, if I made sense, because the false load requires so much more duty. Heat the store than that, than the than, than the heat recovery can give. So what we, what we made the decision about four years ago now was to take off the air source heat pump mode off the combined heating with systems.
So we just have a refrigeration heat recovery. And whilst a lot of mechanical mechanical engineers, mechanical building services, engineers will go, Oh, well, that's not a lot. You're not giving me me a lot. The thing that they forget, and I've not seen them really include is the fact that whatever we're taking out of the refrigeration, we're putting in and that, and the refrigeration is still, we're still taking out 30 kilowatts of, of, of, of, of refrigeration out, out, out to the sales floor.
It's can only come from the sales floor and do they want to, yeah. And so we're putting that back in and plus the power input. And that is still much more efficient than just getting an air source heat pump. To, to, to, to just chucking that energy away and just getting an air source heat pump. And that, and that's, that's, that's, that's the thing.
It's both cheaper to cut heat, to recover heat from the transcriptional CSG system. And it's, you know, then pretty much anything else you will still need, certainly with doors, in my opinion. What I term auxiliary or supplementary air source heat pumps to overcome the structural loads, but you know structural infiltration loads, which in the UK are, you know, relatively significant on, on the, on the, on these stores.
It's both cheaper to cut heat, to recover heat from the transcriptional CSG system. And it's, you know, then pretty much anything else you will still need, certainly with doors, in my opinion. What I term auxiliary or supplementary air source heat pumps to overcome the structural loads, but you know structural infiltration loads, which in the UK are, you know, relatively significant on, on the, on the, on these stores.
I can't speak for Canada, obviously. But yeah, at such a point, it's such, it's such an easy win for CO2 to have a heat recovery plate. If you've got air source or water source heat pumps, you know, it's such an easy win. Yeah. So,
but yeah, so that's, you know, that's amazing. Cause I do have these conversations with a lot of, for years and even with technicians, all the heat recovery is off or the heat reclaims turned off by the customer because they say that they don't get that they're paying too much for the heat recovery.
So it was better just to use. Natural gas heat or electric heat it's cheaper. But at the end of the day, if you can reuse any heat inside this, and this is where we're evolving to I've been at a store where they do low temp, medium temp, high temp, air conditioning, heating, all with a CO2 plant, you know what I'm seeing more and more of these now.
So it was better just to use. Natural gas heat or electric heat it's cheaper. But at the end of the day, if you can reuse any heat inside this, and this is where we're evolving to I've been at a store where they do low temp, medium temp, high temp, air conditioning, heating, all with a CO2 plant, you know what I'm seeing more and more of these now. And I think it's just the change. You know, it's different and it's still hard, hard for people to understand that actually you have one plant that says everything versus having 40 packs on the roof, like the RTUs on the roof. It just has to be designed differently and staged differently and looked at differently.
And it's not always going to be one size fits all because that's what people are looking for. I just want this one thing that does not, there's different buildings, different location, different ambience and different conditions. Yeah, indeed. Ah,
so yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's, there is no one size fits all. But I think there is a one size fits most, I think and then I said, as I put, as I put out that put on the, on the pitch, why is kind of dark side of the future? And for, and for me, it's, it's relatively simple. It is the only non toxic, non flammable sub 150 GWP refrigerant that, yeah, I sort of, that, yeah, that's, that's almost enough.
That is a waste product. Yeah, and such is cheap and has relatively low in body carbon. And as such, it's the only one that can be used in large centralized refrigeration systems, either as direct expansion, either as pump volatile. And as I put up the hierarchy controls here, CO2 sits here. Is it? Is it toxic?
That is a waste product. Yeah, and such is cheap and has relatively low in body carbon. And as such, it's the only one that can be used in large centralized refrigeration systems, either as direct expansion, either as pump volatile. And as I put up the hierarchy controls here, CO2 sits here. Is it? Is it toxic?
Yeah. No. Yeah. Toxicity eliminated. Flammability eliminated. It doesn't really matter if it's an A2L. It needs to be treated as flammable, you know? And, and also what happens during, you know, during combustion, you know? So ammonia, A2Ls, especially when we consider the environmental costs, we need to consider them down here.
So at this point, what's the only one that gives you. eliminates all those concerns. And that for me is, is CO2. And that's why fundamentally, I think it's, it's a future. It's the only one that's going to have the lowest scope three emissions. In my opinion, it's the only one that's going to have the lowest.
GG Well, that, that's the, that's the other thing is considering these over the the GG the GW ps of, of the CO2 alternatives, you know, even if they're sub 150, what do they look like over a 20 year time horizon? Because they're all based on, they all have R 32. In R 32, it has is what, 6, 7, 7 at, at current a ar, ar six values.
GG Well, that, that's the, that's the other thing is considering these over the the GG the GW ps of, of the CO2 alternatives, you know, even if they're sub 150, what do they look like over a 20 year time horizon? Because they're all based on, they all have R 32. In R 32, it has is what, 6, 7, 7 at, at current a ar, ar six values.
But on a 20 year life on a 20 year scale, it's up I think 2000 and where's, when's, where's the next, what are the, what, what are the most important co co times? Well, yeah, it's the next 20 years. We've, you know, we don't, we don't have that long to meet, you know, to, to, to, to 2050. Certainly don't have that long to meet, well, let's say two degrees of, warming before we potentially hit some some pivot points.
Or some yeah, some, some thresholds. So yeah, and that's fundamentally why I'm such a CO2 zealot at the moment because it just ticks all the boxes.
Yeah, no, and that's fair. And there's going to be lots of you that are listening that agree or disagree and it doesn't matter. It's just you need to understand what's going on. Yeah, no, and that's fair. And there's going to be lots of you that are listening that agree or disagree and it doesn't matter. It's just you need to understand what's going on.
So, and you, you're coming here, listen to the experts from all around the world. There's lots of different opinions out there and I hear both sides of it. I'm hearing from why we should be using the CO2, why we shouldn't be using CO2, or naturals, why we should be using A12s versus why we shouldn't be using A12s and HOC.
I hear all these stories from so many different people. And there's, you know, people can, you can, you can make it sound like one's better than the other. At the end of the day, none of these are good for the planet, like leaking. Like one of the things that people are like, Oh, what I like about CO2, I can just blow it off and then work on it.
No, you don't want to do that. There's still POE oil in there that you're shooting out. You don't want to do it. It's same with A2Ls. There's different reasons for all these different refrigerants. And if you're pro or con to it, to me, it doesn't, doesn't matter. I just want you to be able to make a true judgment for yourself.
The kind of like Connor did over the last 12 years, he thought he believed one way or thought one way, and he's. Over time, he's learned more and more where he's now to the point where he sees CO2 as the future. And this is for now, because we don't know what's going to happen in the next 20 years. Maybe there's something, some other development that comes out that makes it more efficient, more, better, better for the planet.
The kind of like Connor did over the last 12 years, he thought he believed one way or thought one way, and he's. Over time, he's learned more and more where he's now to the point where he sees CO2 as the future. And this is for now, because we don't know what's going to happen in the next 20 years. Maybe there's something, some other development that comes out that makes it more efficient, more, better, better for the planet.
We don't know. You know what I mean? At this point, we don't know what lies ahead, but what I do know. Is it, it's exciting times for the refrigeration industry and you should get involved in the refrigeration industry and you should talk to people that you know about why refrigeration is amazing and we should be getting in here to learn more about CO2, to learn more about the, how refrigeration is changing and involving the world.
I had a conversation the other day, Connor, with someone where they were telling me, you know refrigeration, like food refrigeration is kind of, kind of big. But you know, what's bigger refrigeration today is data centers. You know what I mean? Like this is 25 years ago, data centers, you know, there were data centers, but it's not like it is today, the amount of heat output that they use.
I had a conversation the other day, Connor, with someone where they were telling me, you know refrigeration, like food refrigeration is kind of, kind of big. But you know, what's bigger refrigeration today is data centers. You know what I mean? Like this is 25 years ago, data centers, you know, there were data centers, but it's not like it is today, the amount of heat output that they use.
So we got to be thinking and expanding our mind. And I I'm heavily in supermarket, big time, you know, commercial refrigeration, but I'm starting to expand mine to see where, where do we really need to the most refrigeration? It's critical for us. Food preservation, medicine, so important, but there's the other side of our refrigeration industry that's growing way faster than ever before.
And we're going to see CO2 in a lot of those locations. I'm talking about CO2, way more in air conditioning, way more in data centers than I ever did before. So you'll see more of that to come. Connor, I want to thank you for taking the time to chat chat with us and share some of your knowledge and, and because I know this is just the beginning.
And I'm for, I'm definitely, we're going to have many more good conversations. But what are some final thoughts for anybody listening on the podcast or watching the YouTube video? What are a couple of final thoughts?
Well, I think, I think, I think the final thought is look forward, you know, don't look, don't look behind.
Well, I think, I think, I think the final thought is look forward, you know, don't look, don't look behind. You've got to look, you've got to look forward to where you're going to be. Yeah. Or, or where you want to be because yeah. Cause like, like I said, if you don't consider, yeah, if you don't consider where the grid was going, you know and decarbonizing it's like, well, that basically rendered a whole lot, whole lot of Investments decisions rather moot if they were to, to get the most environmentally responsible choice.
I say, yeah. And that's the thing. And as you, as you know, there's very little, there's very few things that are environmentally friendly. We just got to, we need to be responsible, you know, and choose the lesser of two evils effectively. Yeah. And I'm tracking. I think the most important thing is that CO2 is.
Is, is, is big and it's a very good, very good refrigerant that can be used for an awful lot of things. And it's probably the best one out. It's probably, yeah, for the majority of applications, the best one out there.
And I agree with you. I see more and more and more studies. So I really enjoyed this conversation. I I've learned a lot. And if you took anything away from this, share this with someone, you know, if you learn one or two things cause it's going to be different. Around the world, wherever you're at. And we didn't get into centralized decentralized system. We didn't get into 45 degree ambience or 20 degree.
I I've learned a lot. And if you took anything away from this, share this with someone, you know, if you learn one or two things cause it's going to be different. Around the world, wherever you're at. And we didn't get into centralized decentralized system. We didn't get into 45 degree ambience or 20 degree.
I mean, you know what I mean? We, you can dive deeper and all this stuff and you're going to have to model it. You're going to have to have it designed. You're going to have it installed. The total life cycle of a piece of equipment is not just a piece of equipment. Who is servicing? Who's maintenance? Is the customers paying for maintenance?
Because this is, I, I seen a thing in the chat where, where they say, well my good friend, Andrew Freeberg, he says customers will dictate maintenance. You know what I mean? So even though it's needed to be more efficient and effective and save them piles of money down the road, because I've seen it time and time again.
Oh, we'll just wait until it breaks. And when it breaks, we'll just pay a service guy because we don't want to pay them that maintenance and that costs them more money in the long run, hands down, every time I've seen it, I've seen the numbers there. A lot of them are scared to show and admit how much it costs them because they made a mistake on not keeping up with maintenances because that costs.
Oh, we'll just wait until it breaks. And when it breaks, we'll just pay a service guy because we don't want to pay them that maintenance and that costs them more money in the long run, hands down, every time I've seen it, I've seen the numbers there. A lot of them are scared to show and admit how much it costs them because they made a mistake on not keeping up with maintenances because that costs.
It, it does cost, we, it costs time and money to keep a good running system. And there's, there's a lot of other good points. I love Jim too. Also, heat recovery is key reason for our large chiller customers going with CO2 based systems. And I appreciate that pro, pro chiller, they got their pro green system out there, but they're seeing that heat, the value of it.
I remember being in conversation with them where they have reduced tens of thousands of pounds of propane. And it's already done. The heat is done for the watchmate because of the CO2 system. Nothing else added. So there's not pulling more stuff out of the planet, not reusing other fuels to heat up the stuff.
It's all done in one system. So if you think about it and you design it properly, it's going to make a big difference. If you like this podcast, please share it, like it, comment, and I'm super excited that you're here to listen to us today. Connor, thank you so much for taking the time. Oh, thank you for having me. And we look forward to seeing everyone at the next CO2 experts live. Thank you, everyone. And we look forward to seeing everyone at the next CO2 experts live. Thank you, everyone.
And we look forward to seeing everyone at the next CO2 experts live. Thank you, everyone.