We get so wrapped up in early success and we want to applaud it, we want to elevate it, and then we question why parents chase them. They chase it because we hold it in the highest esteem. And if we really want to play the long game, if we really want to grow our athletes and we want to give them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to really challenge ourselves as to why is it that we celebrate this early success.
This is the Reform Sports Project, a podcast about restoring healthy balance and perspective in all areas of sports through education and advocacy. Hi, this is Nick Bonacor from the Reform Sports Podcast. My guest today is Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach, founder of Go Wags Baseball, author and sports parent. A former Wake Forest baseball player, Kyle is coach players of all ages from grade school through college, including forty Division
one athletes and three first round draft picks. He's the author of How the Rivercats Won, lessons on relationships and competition, as well as green Light hitting from the backyards to the big leagues. Kyle and I discussed his belief in student advocacy, his skepticism to define a person by one metric and the three things that create a fear based mindset and athletes. I have another phenomenal guest. I've been
following this dude for a few years. Few years. We've had a couple of conversations, some good interaction on Twitter in particular now known as X twenty twenty four. But man, I'm super pumped to have him. He is very forward thinking and I love it.
Man.
He calls himself a student advocate. He's a teacher, he's a coach. He's a former absolute stud baseball player, a father, sports parent, all the above. My man, Kyle Wagner, coach Wax, thanks so much for hopping on man.
Oh, it's an honor. I'm privilegit. I'm looking forward to Yeah.
And here's where I want to start with you, Man. I love your content. I think you would have been my favorite teacher in high school based off of all the stuff I see you say. You call yourself a student advocate. You put out a recent tweet that I thought was very interesting, and I actually had the experience
with a couple of professors like this in college. A student was asking you, why are you giving us the questions to the exam you know before the exam, and your response on the tweet was, well, because I'd rather you know the information than me punished for not knowing it. What is that about? What does it mean for you to be a student advocate? And why the hell are you not concerned with grades? Why do you think grades are not a reflection of a kid's intellect?
Oh boy, yeah, you've been following me to know that those are touchy subjects for me.
I just I'm skeptical of anyone.
Metric to define a person. And it's not just true in school, it's true everywhere. I mean with respect to baseball, everyone knows that, you know, batting average doesn't define an athlete, and slugging or and earned run average. And I even think that my body mass index would qualify me as obese, right, And so that's another one.
And so the idea of the.
Great thing judging our students I'm really sensitive to. And so you know, when when it comes down to it, I would rather teach them than judge them. I have done so much research on how that judgment component is flawed. And ultimately, when we sit down and we make an assessment of a student, I think we have to as teachers recognize that we are flawed, we are biased, we
design the questions we judge them. I actually just spend today talking about Daniel Pink's research when and he gets into the idea of that, you know, the time of day impacts how we assess people, and so that that tweet that you're referencing, I just think, ultimately, with all the hats that teachers, where the most important one is educator. And educator means I need to give you information and
I'm constantly trying to communicate that that. I try to extend the time horizon as long as so you know, if I judge you on a Wednesday, but you forget it on a Thursday, have I done my job? And that's sort of playing the long game says ultimately, what our job as an educator is is to inspire them and educate them. And so that's why I share that and I reflect on it often, and that's that's where
I've landed twenty five years into this profession. If I'm if I'm going to choose between teaching and judging, I will choose teaching.
Every time you just mentioned the long game, and I know that's something obviously you're passionate about I know you're an author as well. I talk about it a lot, and you're someone who's doing it firsthand. Huge correlation between coaching teaching. Jim Calhoun, who I had on obviously a legend, and even Tim Corbin they talk about being teachers in sport. Right, So how do we formulate considering our entire ecosystem, whether it be academia or athletics, particularly at the youth level.
It's all based on performance, right. There's winners, there's losers, there's scoreboards, there's acceptance into universities. I'm going through this right now with my second oldest. So how do we curtail that and when we're teaching or coaching keep the perspective of, you know, the individual, while still trying to help them. Tim Corbin send to me, everyone runs their own race? Is that? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah?
I did a I put a video out the other day. I you know, I think there are three things that really create a fear based mindset in athletes. It's comparisons, It's outcomes, and it's deadlines. And you know, every coach knows that, you know, you could get the greatest buy in with your athletes and then the minute you post a lineup, now now you've you've created a comparison, and that that can be challenging, and immediately you've got this
judgment of running through the program. Uh, and it's undeniable, like every coach eventually has to do it, and and that can fracture culture if if you're not communicating that message and how every.
Coach works his lineup.
But what I would argue is I would say that so often we create these deadlines and we get outcome based when we don't have to create deadlines and become outcome based.
Right.
So, yeah, I'm a big fan. I have three hashtags that I love it. It's run your race, no finish lines and top with carry water, And those are the three that I think that if I embrace and I can communicate to my athletes, then we can live in this love based reality. And I know that might sound a little touchy feely, but I really think it's important. And in twenty twenty four, it does feel like this relationship model is at the forefront.
It's pushing away this this.
Social Darwinism, survival of the fittest when it all costs. I think it's it's pushing that aside, and I think it's recognizing that this love based reality is the way to go. So when I hear run your race, that gets me fired up. No finish lines, right, lifelong learner that idea. And then the chopboy cherry water is you know, don't don't swallow the praise because you'll swallow the poison.
Try to interpret feedback as feedback. Keep it neutral, don't get don't get wrapped up in wins and losses, just keep just keep moving forward.
You played ball at Wake Forest, Am I right about that?
Yes?
All right, So so you played at an extremely high level.
Now that Wake Forest I played at wasn't the Wake Forest that currently exists.
Like we we were middle of the road.
Acc we were good. I don't want to I don't want to disparage my time there. But certainly Wake has a vault into a power power program.
Sure, but obviously still acc you know the quote unquote power five. You're playing at the highest level of collegiate athletics at the time and still is. But what I'm going with that is you have the perspective of you know, a lot of sports parents, youth sports parents, will listen to this. Obviously, coaches as well. You have the perspective of coach, former high level athlete. You're a sports parent as well, so so as a sports parent listened to this.
Who may not be in form right, they don't have the same person, They didn't play in the acc they don't coach, they don't teach, they haven't been in the classroom for twenty five years. Hypothetically, I'm a thirty five year old parent. My kids are just entering the youth sports ecosystem where everything's based on performance. How do we not get sucked into, you know, results driven with very little you know, background to be able to formulate or
kind of go in there with any shield. Right, It's almost like at times you could be going into a war with no protection. It's I mean, I mean a little you know, might bee being a little extreme, but it could feel like that and a little overwhelming. How do we prepare ourselves as young parents who may not have the background, you know?
One of the things I call into question a lot is what you'll hear people say you got to compete at everything you do. And although that might be true on some levels, like when you become a parent. If you engage in a competitive mindset, you're going to find yourself fighting on the sidelines. You're going to find yourself, you know, valuing wins more than they should. Because if we're competing at everything we do, we need to win. We need to win this this nine you baseball game.
And the one thing that I think often gets overlooked is young athletes have young parents. And I think sometimes as you age, you simply gain the perspective of maturity and you look back and you realize that ultimately it is about development, it is about growth, it is about developing relationships. And having said all of that, I desperately wanted to treat my young athletes as baseball players, and I wanted to value the win.
I wanted to teach them how to compete.
I mean, it was important to me, but it was important only if we did it with integrity. And I think as a coach at that youth level, part of integrity is making sure everyone has a role.
Like we're not a college team.
It isn't like we have bench players that have to support the starters, and that's not it. And so if I were presenting to a group of young parents, I would again, would I would try to emphasize the long game. I would try to emphasize, you know, be an ambassad for the sport. I would try to emphasize, you know, root for your teammates, your son, your daughter's teammates, as
much as your root for your son and daughter. I think when we get that narrow focus of mom and dad, sometimes not only do we lose sight of the big picture, but we focus our attention on our son and our daughter, and then therein lies a lot of the root problem. Is that that intensity, that competition that we have to get ours and so yeah, it's it's it's retracting the lens, it's that thirty thousand foot view.
Ultimately, we're trying to grow in the game, not win a game. I guess that would be my message.
Do you feel like sports parents, and some rightfully so, get a bad rap. Oftentimes, you know, you'll hear people, even I for that matter, will say, Hey, we drop our kids off at school. They're in the classroom. We're not sitting there watching them take a test. You know, We're not sitting there watching them get their lecture or doing whatever assignment they have for the day. So why do we feel like we need to impede upon a coach during a practice. Why do we need to be
so engaged? Do you notice that the classroom has changed? Is there a correlation? Are parents the same with the classroom aspect of it their students in the classroom as they are with sports, or do you notice a difference.
Well, obviously, I'm a teacher, I'm a coach, I'm a parent, I'm all the above. I'm just going to speak from my perspective, Like if I were on a practice, I would invite anyone to stay and watch, like I just enjoyed my time coaching athletes and practice planning that I enjoyed having the parents there to watch and learn. Like for me, I wanted my message to resonate behind closed doors.
I wanted them to talk about what it was.
We were learning, so they could, you know, they could reiterate my message, they could emphasize my message. There are some coaches that might perceive that as a parent imposing on them, like this is my time and I want my message. But I was always more inclusive in that way. I would invite the parents for a postgame talk.
Again, I was talking at a youth level. I'm not talking at at like a high school level or a college level. But I'm not saying it couldn't be done.
I just I'm a I'm a big fan of transparency and I would share as much as possible. And I'm even humble enough to recognize.
I wrote a book How the River Cats Won, and I had.
Some amazing parents, and you know, I talked in there about being challenged by parents when my emotions got too hot, and they were right, and I'd like to think that they were capable of challenging me because I created an
environment that they were permitted to do so. So it is absolutely a sticky wicket like it is absolutely one of those those tough things to navigate, but I have found that it is way easier when the guy in charge, the head coach, is humble enough to say I don't have all the answers, but I've I've got a ton of experience, and I do a lot of reading and I try to stay up to speed all the latest research. But if you come across something that you think might
help the boys the girls, I'm all in. And so I don't know if that directly answered it, but that's just how I want to do agress.
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com and sign up today. Where we left off, Hyle and I were about to discuss his approach to communicating with his player's parents and the downsize of early praise. So I know, in my coaching experience, I always have like a pre practice first meeting, you know, like an introductory thing. I give him a little bit of my background, and this is what it could be seven years old, you know, eight years old, nine years old. Just hey,
here's what we're gonna do. Here's what I think. Let's and I try to set a boundary, you know, and I even send a long email like, hey, these not a long email, but I try to touch on something these kids are seven or their rate, you know, like let's keep that perspective. Do you set a boundary, like do you try to set expectations? Because I totally agree with your transparency. You know, the lines of communication have
to be open. I think a lot of times where we get up parents is when there is no transparency. It's not necessarily an over communication, but just kind of set the expectation from the on sects. I'm sure a lot of people will hear this and go, how do I navigate that balance right? That juggling act.
Yeah, transparency doesn't mean all the time, I think, you know, we have to account for the fact that anytime that a parent and a coach engage in some sort of communication in public, every every set of eyes is allowed.
To interpret that communication however they want.
And so what I was always hesitant of is that that public communication in front of others that could could form.
Their opinion and one that I didn't want them to form.
So I said, look, you know, your son, your daughter might be struggling, and we might have some communication where I'm gonna I'm gonna sit them down for two games and just let them, you know, assess the situation from a different angle.
We're going to talk about that. But I still believe in you.
I'm still going to give you opportunities and then you know you're you're gonna You're gonna find your way back in the lineup. But if mom or dad come and approach me at the end of the second game, uh, and I had every intention of playing them the next game.
Now parents see that interaction.
And then all of a sudden that that that child's in the lineup, they're.
Free to go. Oh, this is how it works.
If I confront coach, then I get in the lineup, and I don't want that. So I make it clear that look, I want transparency, but I would love to do it away from the public arena. I want to talk about your son and your son only your daughter, and I'll tell you exactly where they fit. And I'm doing my best to try to get him in opportunities to develop. But if if if people see us talking and then I play them like, I don't know if
that's fair to me. And so that was how I always communicated that in the preseason.
Stuff to kind of shift gears a little bit, but stay on the youth piece. This is something I think you and I actually connected through this topic was the early specialization, you know, multi sport thing, which I got to tell you, man, in the last decade plus, but really especially the last like you know, five to seven, ten years. Man, it's hard. It's hard to you know who's right or wrong. I don't know if there is a right or wrong. Well I shouldn't say that. I
think there is a right or wrong. I think it's balanced. But but it's becoming harder. It's becoming harder. Everything is year round. I mean, I believe you're I think, are you down in Georgia?
I live in Pennsylvania. Is that is that what you're asking?
Yeah? Okay, so you live in Yeah? Okay, so so you live in a colder climate state. I'm in North Carolina, so you can't play everything year round. You know, I grew up in the Northeast and you couldn't play baseball year round. And then it's also thirty years ago. But you know, how do you as a coach? I mean, for God's sakes, I saw a post the other day where apparently there's and it's not just I saw the post,
but I've heard it. There's like travel coaches encouraging high school kids not to play for their high school because it's it's not good enough. They're not good enough, They're going to get worse. It's like how do we juggle? How do you juggle this? And more importantly, like how did you navigate it with your It's because I know you have kids that played at a very high level as well.
So one of the banners on our inside co egs that was our training facility was competer developed at something year round and those words were intentional computer develop right, And so so often coaches with an agenda only ever focused on developing, like we have to sharpen the blade, we have to get better. Everyone's improved. They can't waste any time. I think they missed that component of compete.
You know, I would.
Tell any baseball player that you know, you're standing on the foul line down one with two seconds to go.
I mean, how could you not argue that that wouldn't.
Be helpful from an athletic standpoint. And we actually have a very specific case here in my backyard, Redland High School, where we have a really high level baseball player, like a high end draft status in the July draft coming.
Up, and yet he's a great basketball player.
And the coaches got together and they designed a program together for the athlete that allows him to.
Continue to lift, continue to hit, continue to do what he needs to do. And yet he's still playing basketball.
And I don't think that happens if you don't have flexible coaches, you know. And I've actually gotten a little debate I've shared I've shared his story with others, and there are.
Some basketball coaches that said, no.
I wouldn't accommodate him in that way. And my response would be, if you're not going to accommodate him, you're probably going to lose him. And so we can't just dump the burden on the athlete and say, hey, play.
As much as possible.
The coaches need to accept some responsibility too, and say, look, the pressure is immense. It's immense for these athletes with so many eyes on him in the social media world. You know, what can we do to assist we can be flexible? We can we can potentially say, hey, this particular athlete might not have to show up for a six am lift because he needs his sleep and he doesn't want to lose the weight. And so those are some concessions that I'm always I'm always impressed when a
coach shows some adaptability in that area. But yeah, it is it is strange that that the travel world is imposing on these communities in ways that we're losing our.
Structure a little bit. That's unfortunately. I hope it turns around.
I think the more podcasts like this give it a fighting chance.
Do you feel as though that I actually when I had David Epstein on a couple of years ago, and he kind of brought up the point it almost feels like as a young parent you have to go rogue, you know, against the system, because he knows all the data, right, He's done the research, you know, with range, and he knows you know, the value of you know versatility, and you know sports sampling or just sampling in life, and it's like you almost feel like you have to go rogue.
And now I am confident in my perspective as a parent to be able to give my kids a broad buffet or help them adapt their palette to different things and let them find their path. But it almost that fomo. Man, how do you navigate the fomo as a parent?
Well, I mean your initial question to me about grades, you know, it sort of stems from that, Like we tend to elevate and reward people before the race is over. I don't understand why we have to celebrate the A on October eighteenth, Like why does that define someone? It's a letter on their transcript and we can't remove it, and an A is elevating them, it's raising them above
the sea. And then it speaks to the same point you're bringing up here, is that you know, we get so wrapped up in early success and we want to applaud it, we want to elevate.
It, we want to hold it to the highest level.
And then we question why parents chase that, Well, they chase it because we recognize it and we hold it in the highest esteem, and if we really want to play the long game, if we want to really want.
To grow our athletes and we want to give.
Them skills and develop them, sometimes we have to really challenge ourselves as to why is it that we celebrate this early success. And you know, I've coached lots of high level athletes and and some I was fortunate enough to be first rounders, and you know, there there were some.
That were elite at a very early age.
I was fortunate enough to coach Anthony Boltby and I remember coaching him as a as a ten year old, walked into the nurses office the next day at school, I said, I just I just coached the.
Future Big leaguer And that played out. But then another.
First rounder, Benny Montgomery from the the Rockies organization. He didn't start on the varsity team as a as a freshman, but you could see his potential. He was going to grow, he was gonna get he's gonna get super strong, and yet you know, there were lots of people that he's.
Passed along the way. It's this it's this.
Early praise that I think just gets people chasing their own thing. So that that's again, that's that no finish line mentality. It's like, why are we celebrating success when excess is miles away?
Coach wags. I want people to connect with you. I love what you do, I love your perspective. I think you have tremendous insight that can help a lot of people. Where can they find you on your platforms? I know you're on ex Twitter, Where else can they find you?
That's really it.
I had an incident where an unfortunate incident where I was hacked, and so I jumped off of Instagram and Facebook, and I had all kinds of stuff out there.
But it's it's X.
And I mean, I've shared my green Land hitting book. I'll share with anyone that's I can share that online through X. But that's that's my primary resource that I use.
Just the X.
Where can people find your book?
You can get it on Amazon.
How the Rivercats Won. How the Rivercats Won was a It was my model, my framework for developing not only athletes, but you know, growing teams. A lot of a lot of young coaches are curious about, you know, the cutting process and how they try kids out and you know, shoot, should we should we try to keep the same team as we grow, and so I sat down and wrote a book, How the Rivercats, one that's on Amazon, and then the green Light Hitting book that I wrote in twenty twelve.
That thing got so darn expensive.
I don't even suggest anyone buys the hard copy, although.
Some people do like it.
You can get that on Blurb is actually the site for that.
Kyle Wagner coach WAGS, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your time, your perspective. We're going to run this back again. I can't thank you enough.
Man.
You're very welcome and I love that you invited me. I appreciate the time.
That's Kyle Wagner, teacher, coach, author and sportsparent. Thanks for listening to the Reform Sports Podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate it if you took a moment to rate and review our podcast. As we work to grow our community of supporters and advocates for more reform sports content, please subscribe to our newsletter and blog at Reformsports Project dot com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn.