If someone asked you to pinpoint the exact moment Keir Starmer became a Prime Minister in office but no longer in power, you'd be spoilt for choice.
If he thinks that bothers me, he doesn't know me.
You may point to the winter fuel payments fiasco.
We've had to take tough decisions to stabilise the economy.
Or the surrender of the Chagoth Islands.
That is bad for our national security. And it's a gift to our adversaries.
Or any one of a dozen self-inflicted crises that will come to define his premiership as one of the most chaotic in modern British history.
But it's been awkward, really, isn't it? Because he's in the room. And the rest are thinking, well, goodbye.
But if you asked me that question, I'd say it happened at 10 minutes past three on the morning of Friday, the 19th of June.
And I do hereby declare that Andy Burnham is duly elected.
Burnham's victory in the Makerfield by-election made one thing unmistakably clear. Voters in Labour's former heartlands will do anything to get Starmer out, including voting Labour.
Everyone can feel that the country isn't where it should be. Tonight could just be the turning point.
Burnham's victory speech was a kick in the teeth for the Prime Minister and a not-so subtle reminder that he is coming for him.
If there is a contest, just to be clear with you, then yes I will run. I will stand, and I've said repeatedly, I'm not going to walk away from that.
Well, that's what Starmer said last week, but now multiple reports say he could be gone within hours, potentially paving the way for Burnham to become PM. I don't think that's a good thing for the country to plunge us into chaos. And if Andy does force his way into number 10, Britain could face one of the most left-wing experiments in a generation.
Andy Burnham is not Prime Ministerial material.
He isn't. But while the Westminster Games continue, I wanted to catch up with Reforms candidate Rob Kenyon to talk about the campaign, the result, and what it really means for Britain. Rob, thanks so much for doing this. Always a pleasure, right? It's lovely to speak to you again.
How are you feeling? Um tired, disappointed, a bit deflated, really. But also proud. It took a lot of guts to do what I've done. They've thrown everything at me, they've tried to destroy me. And uh I can hold my head up high. I say just disappointed, really, because I think I've given the people of Wigan and the Merkerfield constituency an opportunity to vote for real change, and they've overwhelmingly voted for more of the same.
Yeah, were you surprised by the result? I think what was the difference? Something like 9,000 votes or something. Even though you did increase your vote share, you increased the number of people that voted from you compared to the 2024 general election as well.
Yeah, that's a good point. But if you think about it this way, they Labor won with a 9,000 majority, something like that. Well, in 2024, they won with a 5,000 majority. So they've increased the majority because they took the Greens and the Lib Dems votes. That was 4,000 votes last time in 2024. So the left have tactically voted to keep reform out. I don't think they've done any better than what they would have done anyway, um, in 2024.
It's just that they've the Lib Dems and the Greens voted for Labour. What was it like on the night? To be honest with you, I didn't really spend much time at the counts for obvious reasons, you know, like you don't want to be mobbed by the the press. So I only showed up literally 15 minutes beforehand and just thanked everyone who was who was there and that that was it. We were just up all night waiting because I didn't know which way it was gonna go. Absolutely no idea.
We had the numbers, you know, we had a we had a good set of pledges, but uh at the end of the day, you can't you can lead a horse to wall so you you can't make it drink it. I think it was the parcel vote that won it. Right. The Labour, I think it was neck and neck on the night, but it was the parcel vote that did it, and I I I just think in six months' time, twelve months' time, I think I think this will go down in history as a point that we've got to stopped the decline of this country.
People will look back to this election and say, if you would have only just voted for reforming UK, this could have been stopped. Uh and it it it it's pretty difficult when you're going in against someone like Andy Burnham because you're being judged, you're being judged at the side of someone who's spent 25 years at frontline politics, he's been health secretary, Murray Great of Manchester for the last nearly 10 years. So people are judging me at the side of him to do the job as an MP.
Well, he's not he's going on further than MPs, he's trying to become the Prime Minister. So you people are judging me on somebody who's going for the Prime Minister job. Well, I'm not going for the Prime Minister job, I'm just being trying to be the MP.
It was interesting because I remember when we were out canvassing and you were speaking to an undecided voter, and you said, What do you think would make the difference for you? And he said, probably experience. And you said, Well, yeah, but what experience does Andy Burnham have in the real world? He's been a politician his whole life. And I I think maybe maybe the fact that he has been in politics his whole life, that was one of the elements that that sort of swung people in his favour.
Or do you think that's yeah, but I think that's the reason why the country's in such a mess, because it's had people like Andy Burnham in charge for far too long. So what they've gone and voted for is more of the same. And it's not the answer. We need drastic change, absolute drastic change. And it's just frustrating because I just think I've given it everything I can possibly give. Yeah. You know, and all the volunteers came up and give it everything, the party give it everything.
We we needed change, we needed real change, and the people in Merkerfield have been fooled, they've been hoodwinked again. You know, when people learn, you know, we've voted Labour around here for a hundred years, and people are still going voting Labour, nothing's changed. It's frustrated, it's frustrating because you think. Do you get what I mean about the comparison?
No, I totally do, I totally do. And and and you, you, you know, from what I saw and what I you know witnessed and told people when I was out sort of campaigning with you, I genuinely believe Rob will have your back, he'll be he'll look after the best interests of this community and he'll try and make a real change.
And and you know, I th I don't think anyone who voted for Andy Burnham really thinks that he's gonna be trying to sort of stop the guy growing weed on the end of the corner or the cars going too far. You know what I mean? It's the it's not gonna be into local issues.
No, he's gonna be if he get if he becomes prime minister, which do you know what it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't win that election battle he's lost twice before, isn't it? So um there's every chance he loses that battle. But yeah, it's we've been food-winked, we've been fooled by politicians. The turning point of this country went went down to that election. If I win, things don't get any worse for the country. They might get, you know, there's a good chance they will get better.
Burnham gets in charge. It'll be like Tony Blur all over again. Andy Burnham is not prime ministerial material. He isn't. He's a likable bloke for for for people around here who think, oh, it's he's alright. He's not Prime Minister material, he just isn't. He's not got the the courage. Andy Burnham couldn't have done what I've just done. He's not got the balls to do what I've just done, go through what I've just gone through.
Hello, if you're enjoying the show, please like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five-star review and a comment too. Thank you and back to the episode. Can I talk to you a bit about that?
Obviously, it's not easy for anyone trying to stand as an MP, but you know, obviously you were going up against somebody who's got that nickname, the King of the North, huge reputation, all the eyes of the country on the events taking place in Makerfield, and then everybody digging through your life, things you've posted 10-15 years ago. How difficult was it for you during the campaign?
To be honest with you, Rate, I wasn't that bothered. I thought that I would be. You know, I thought I'd I don't want people because I'm a private person, I I enjoy my privacy and I I enjoy my anonymity. Well, I think that both have gone now for at least the next couple of weeks, and then it'll probably get back to back to normal. I thought it would bother me a hell of a lot more than it did, but it didn't. I because I was prepared for it, because I knew what would happen.
And before it happened, I'd I'd worked out like this is the worst thing I've ever done or said. I've not got a criminal record, there's nothing, no skeletons in the closet. The only thing I was bothered about is what I've said on social media, which which I forgot about. That's that's all I was bothered about. Yeah, yeah. And and I've I've got no idea what I've said 10-15 years ago. I've I've got absolutely no idea. So that was the only thing that was I was bothered about, and it came out.
Look, they just it was just a smear campaign. The only thing I was bothered about is it affecting the campaign. Not about me personally, because I'd already made the commitments for my name and reputation to be trashed and thrown in the gutter and smeared before he even accepted to stand. So I knew that was coming and I knew it was going to happen. But what I didn't want is to derail the campaign because I wasn't doing it for me. I was doing it for the the town and the country.
Yeah. We're in a dire state as a country, we're on the edge of the abyss if we don't rapidly, drastically change the direction of this country. And it needs people with guts like me to to stand up and fight. Would you do it again? I won't do a by-election again, I don't think, but uh it's I'd I'd stand again, definitely. 100%. I think we need to keep this momentum up. We've got one chance to win the next general election. If we don't win this next general election, the country's gone.
It it's gone, it's over.
Let me just ask you more a more general question. What was it like just being a reform candidate?
But honestly, the party's been so it's different because it's a by-election. So the the risks are higher, but the rewards higher, and the support is higher. So it's in in in a general election, literally, unless you've done something really obviously daft in your life, there's 600 and odd other people going through the same stuff. So it's a bit easier, but then you don't get you probably won't get as much support and you won't get as many volunteers.
In a by-election, it's different because there's extremes, there's extreme pressure, but then there's extreme support. It counteracts it because the party, you know, the people involved have been absolutely fantastic. You know, I couldn't I couldn't speak highly of the party and people involved. So if there's anybody further down the line who's running in a high-profile by-election, then I'd love to speak to them if they were having any doubts, just so I could reassure them.
But with a general election, flipping it, that's like shelling peas now for me, right? I've been through the ringer. Yeah, a general election, it'd be an absolute dawdle, but the only issue there is raising money and like the Fustings have been easy because you won't be going on question time. So um, yeah, I'd definitely definitely do it because it is it is exciting, and you're doing something that's you're gonna leave a legacy.
Your name's gonna be in the history books forever, and um, you know, in in 20, 30, 40 years' time, people will, you know, your family members are gonna look back and go up and say, you know, my granddad did this and he tried to stop this. Was there anything from the campaign that really stood out to you? Any highlights? I'd say question time where I put the green candidate in a place. That's definitely where that's definitely the highlight.
But I'd say the highlight was meeting people every day because I I loved showing up at the office and having people from all over the country coming helping. And and meeting all the wider reform team, you know, like yourself, Ray, it's been nice to meet you and and all the other people involved. Like Jamie McIver's been absolutely fantastic at at the side of me, or like he's been my right arm for the last four weeks or what have you. And he's been great.
It was a roller coaster because one day I'd walk in and I'd have a really fantastic day on the doorstep, and just as I was going home, I'd find out that there'd be a news headline about me, and it sort of popped that bubble. First the bubble, yeah, and then I'd be feeling a bit low and then the next day I'd go in and get perked up.
And I don't know, it was it was just a massive roller coaster of emotions, and it was just surreal that you know, one day I'd be driving down the road with Nigel Farage, and then the next day I'd be going, you know, for something to eat with Ant Middleton, and then the next day I'd be knocking on doors with um Ann Whiticam, and you know, the next day I'd knock on a house, post a leaflet, and a bloke would come running down the road asking for a selfie.
I'd be like, what the flipping next going on here? Yeah. Literally knocking on doors and people know your name, pulling over and asking for a selfie and saying good luck, and it was just it was surreal. I have enjoyed it. Uh you know, don't get me wrong, it was a bit rocky at the start with all the the stuff coming out on so you know the social media comments because I thought I don't know what I've said.
If there was some, you know, if I'd done something that I knew about that was worried about coming out, then you know, you can be prepared for it, but you don't know when it's gonna stop. You know, you're thinking, well, when's it gonna stop? This I don't had you know, they're digging stuff out from an old rugby forum. I've not been on that for donkeys years, I've I've no idea what I've said.
So I don't know about this, but this by-election, it has been good because it's you know, I've had sort of like support from family and friends, it's been great, but yeah.
But Rob, you also did have a lot of support as well. You know, we saw we had Nigel coming down every week, uh, Richard Tice, Lee Anderson, a lot of support from across across the party.
Yeah, massively. You know, there's people down every single day, and and it was really nice meeting people because I I've never met many of them before. So it was nice like Zia Yusuf, I've never met him before, and we we got on really well. Same with Soella, got on really well with Soella, but all of them, like I said, Danny Krueger came up, he sent me a nice message yesterday, you know, spending a bit of time with Nigel as well.
And the more time I spent with Nigel, the more we got on as well, um, and had a laugh. Um, Lee Anderson got on well, Richard Sora's been up quite a lot as well. We we got on really well with Sora, but we didn't lose through lack of effort, Ray. We didn't lose it through lack of effort at all. Through everything at this election. But we'll just have to see what happens, Ray, because I'm not disappointed because I didn't win.
I'm disappointed because the person who's won is gonna trash the bloody country. Is that what you think's gonna happen? I just think people have been fooled again.
Yeah.
And six, 12 months, 18 months' time, they're gonna be begging to come back to this moment and vote for reform instead. And what will happen is Labour will wheel up somebody else and say, listen, we've listened to you, we're gonna change again. And it's like they've been saying that, but God, they've been saying that for the last flipping 20 years at least. Don't we change, we're listening, we're we're different. You're exactly the same as you always have been.
You're gonna do everything again, opposite of what you're promising us. They always do, they always do. Yeah, but um why are people falling for it again? I hear you, I hear you. Because I just really genuinely worry about the future of the country.
Rob, what's next for you personally then? Obviously, you're an elected councillor, you've got a business to run as well, so you know you're gonna have to be straight back to it, really, aren't you?
Yeah, I think I'm gonna set Monday off because I just need to um just chill, just take one day out from it, have a lie in, I just do nothing. Just sit here in uh shorts and t-shirt, I'll sit here in my underpants in the living room. I just binge watch. Uh Lord of the Rings or Star Wars with Game of Thrones or Eating Eating rubbish, just sulk. There's an image eating rubbish for smoking. I think I just need one day off.
Yeah. Just one day where I can say, right, I'm not I'm not thinking of work, I'm not thinking of politics, I'm not thinking of anything. I just need to just just chill for one day.
What would be your final message then to the people of Makerfield who voted for reform, those who didn't vote for reform, what would you say to them now?
So for the ones who voted reform, thank you very much for putting your faith in me. I know I might not speak as eloquently as somebody who's been to Oxford and Cambridge, but that doesn't, you know, but people around here get that, you know, the intents there to to improve this place. And no matter what I do in life, after after three months I could be half decent at it, six months I'll be good at it, after a year I'll be even better. Give me four years at something, I'll be an expert.
So I just think that if I would have become an MP, I would have been a very, very good one. I'd have done everything I can for this place. So thank you for voting and showing that faith. For the ones who didn't vote for me, but there's there's always next time. So when this country's gone down the pan even more, and and just look at what Merkerfield is like now, or Wigan is like now, and let's have a look at what it's like in in a year's or two or three's time under Burnham.
And and just remember, just remember what's happened to the place. But for the ones who haven't voted for me, there's always next time. Rob Kenyon, thank you very much. Alright, Ray, thank you.
The Reform UK podcast was produced and presented by me, Ray Addison. Thanks to Rob, all of the Reform volunteers in Makerfield, and everyone who voted for him in the by election. If you'd like to become a member of the party, take a look at reformparty.uk. And if you'd like to chat with other listeners about the show, you can join the Reform UK podcast community on Facebook. We'll be back next Monday. Goodbye.