The Real Killer Season 2: Ep. 9, The Scapegoat

consider I'm good. Hassan, formerly known as Carlos Sanders, was convicted of various crimes that took place during the uprising and sentenced to death for his alleged role in the murder of Officer Robert for Landingham. Hassan calls me from death row at the Ohio State Penitentiary, the same prison where Keith is. Thankfully, Hassan has agreed to speak with

me about his story, his uprising, his case. I need to learn more about what happened back in nineteen ninety three from the man who was at the very center of it all. Is what transpired during those eleven brutal days, what he intended. Are there any similarities in the investigation and prosecution of his case and Keith's, and does he have any insight into whether or not Keith was the actual leader of the so called death squad. I don't want to use all of your time today so to

decide for this purpose, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer, Episode nine, The Scapegoat. I asked Keith a while back if he and Hassan, or he and any of the others from Lucasville who are housed at the Ohio State Penitentiary talk about their cases, compare notes, try to help each other. He said, no, there's an unwritten rule about it. It's just not something you do. It's

not something you talk about. So I have no idea how Hassan will react when I ask him about Keith, if he'll shut me down or be open to talking. So at first I decide to tread lightly. Did you know him before the uprising? Yeah? And no, not know him personally. I've seen him fight in the box room range because I used to boxing right one day yards in the boxing ring. At another time, I was welcome

with some Muslims. Who is going to trial, recreation job or somewhere and he had locks of some rosaries around his neck or some knees, and some of them fell off, and he became discouraged and sicklemof and I was like, oh man, I'll say, oh no, I'm gonna become discouraged. To pick him up, put him back home, you know, for me and some of the other Muslim pick him up and gave him time and what the riot happened

and we end up on death row together. I brought that up to him, and he remembered that I planned to come back to the subject of Keith a bit later today. Hassan is sixty born and raised in Georgia. In nineteen seventy eight, at age fifteen, he was sent to a juvenile detention center for aggravated assault with intent to rob He says while he was there he escaped, so for that he was tried as an adult and transferred to prison. Eventually, he was released and moved to

Ohio in nineteen eighty three. The next year, Hassan was convicted of aggravated robbery and sentenced thirteen to twenty five years. In April of nineteen eighty eight, at the age of twenty five, he was transferred to Lucasville. Lucasville, it was very loud. People would be thrown yurine pieces, bodily races on one another, thorn scolding coffee on one another faces. It was like like okay, care it was. It was

just a wild environment. There was a lot of stabbing and murdering going on an institution, a lot of racism. There was a few black prisoners that were murdered by staff numbers. Can you tell me a little bit about how Warden Tate ran the prison? Okay, yes, Alka Kate Junior also known as king Off. The sent him there and his job was to straighten out the problem. And not only was prisoners, but even with staff numbers. Staff number had become accustomed to a certain culture and take.

When he came, he didn't care who told that. He actually stepped on whether you were the inmate or whether you was a officer or a staff number. His position was this institution gonna be running my way or you could hit the otway. And how did you become the imm at Lucasville. My predecessor made his intention that he was going to step down from being the iman, which would be the spiritual leader and head of the Muslim community, and he said that he was hand picking me to

be his professor. That must have felt great that you were chosen. No, absolutely, not to the contrary. I know because a lot of prisoners who had a very aggressive and assaulted type behavior, they was now being trying and for to Lucasviere and older people in Lucasville was now being moved out. So Lucasville used to be very violent, an abuse of type environment, but now you got a lot of young people came in and it's increased tremendously.

So contrary to the popular opinion, No, I was not pleased to be appointed, but reluctantly I did accept the position of becoming dispirit ahead for the Muslims before the uprising, where were you housed? I was an honor block, and you have to be a person that out of trouble. You can't be getting in trouble to be an honor block.

So I became more or less amount of prisoner staying out of trouble, good work performance and behavior, and being enrolled in the academical school you get a good time credit. I was one year away from the parole board at the time of the uprising. In episode two, we talked a lot about what happened in the days leading up to the uprising, specifically in regard to the TB test Warden Arthur Tate planned to administer to those one hundred

and fifty nine men who had previously refused it. The Muslim community believed the test, which contained phenol, was a form of alcohol, and for them being forced to consume alcohol was a violation of Islamic law and their religious freedoms. So the Muslim prisoners, led by Hassan, stood their ground. So did Warden Tate. Almost kind of him that just because the person comes to prison and adore the gates are actually closed behind him, that there's not fought for

prisoners of their constitutional right. If you can use some other method that the upset pasury if for your analysis would suffice, If that will work, I mean we would find him affect. His position was he was not going to allow prisoners, in this particular case Muslims to dictate to him. Are you run the institution? On Easter Sunday, April eleventh, the Muslim prisoners were determined to show Warden Tate who actually ran his institution, but Hassan says things

did not go as planned. What you're about to hear is Hassan's behind the prison wall account of what he says happened. There was another intended to be an uprising, or if some people love to say, all right, to begin with, it's supposed to be a peaceful protest, you know,

because opposition was coming in here institute knowledge rules. We felt if we could take over a certain place of the portion of the prison or one particular Bob and barricade ourselson and try to get the attention of the media and his superior in central office, that we can try to resolve the matter. The plans for it to be a non violent protest, right, But in order to barricade yourselves like you had to, like you got to get the guards out of there, right, So was that

part of the plan? I mean, because I think the first thing that people on the yard saw was like a guard running out with blood running down his head. I mean, you guys had to get control in order to barricade yourselves in, right, absolutely. And you know there are some people who may be submissive and some people

who wouldn't be submissive. I can't say because I was not part of why this particularly, I don't know if it was one of the people who initially took over of the area or just somebody seeing the opportunity that these officers are losing they post and just took opportunity to attack an officer. I don't know what the circumstances were, but yes, everyone knows that you have to have bargaining ships,

and you have no bargaining ships. Why would they allow you to just barricade yourself there if you've got something to negotiate with, So yes, people would obviously know that piece would take in the officer hostice and and and trying to use them as bargaining ships to achieve your objectives. So the hostages that were taken there were I think

twelve initially, but then some were released. And then because like I said, nobody wanted to see any hostage or anyone being harmed, so when people were asked when the guards was harmed, they released them without any strange attached. They didn't ask for anything for it. They wanted them to get medical attention immediately. So yes, one of the things they did we did was released false hostages. From the beginning, what was intended to be a peaceful protest

and turned into a full scale rebellion. Hastin says his peaceful protest was hijacked, the result a full scale rebellion. There was a group of people they became known and transciss and stuff. I've read at the death Squad. They was gone around filling people doing the nite a part of the uprising. Tell me if I've got this right or not. But I read that you wanted to put these people who were alleged snitches in cells, locked in

cells for their own safety. Is that true? Yes, In the beginning, when people were talking about killing the snitches, killing the snitches, like killing all the Homosexes, you're gonna have bodies all over this place. No, if you feel they snitches and you're concerned about them seeing you do something, but just lock them up and they sail and they can't. They won't be running around their institutions. So people was being locked up in l six for their protection, you know.

So that's that's the moment that you're talking about. But then when I left from this area and went to the bobby shop and was talking to some Muslims, because about forty five minutes an hour, so then you know they're not they're killing the snitches. So the plan is for this non violent protest. When you see what is unfolding, I mean, were you freaking out? I mean because if it wasn't what you wanted right, And then all of the brothers told me said, man, you need to saida

you might having a panic attack. One of the Muslim brothers comings and his over security and he appointed some of the brothers to take me in the room and let me realize. He says, look, we got this, just go relax of few minutes. Man, they're like, keep having a panic attack. So if that's what you mean by freaking out, then yes, I said, hold on, go get some of the brothers. Don't get some of the brothers own security and tell him out to meet me back

in the Bobby shop. So they met Beckam. The bobby shop is about fifteen twenty Muslims. They had all different types of weapons as federer and we was on our way going toward L six some kind of way. The people that burn down they murdering. The people in L six had heard that we was coming and they ran out on the reclaration yard. And when I came on myself and other Muslim came into L six. We've seen people and people was gagging for air, and I told people to get him off and get some of these

other guys out. So they took them and took them to the reparation yard, and some of them actually survived. Three men survived their beatings, Andrey Stockton was one of them. You met him in the last episode. The rest of the death Squad's victims and L six did not survive. And what happened was people were saying that the majority of the people that was killed was white. For now white a sense of fear as if it was a

racial thing, and we knew it was not racial. It would never intended to be a right uprising to begin with, and everything was real jedery and people were feeling uncomfortable. So I think uprising or happened round three o'clock a coast to three o'clock, so maybe by eight thirty then they coming. He got on the bullhun and said, look, we're getting ready to say our prayers, and we asked that y'all be hold down the noise, so give us

the respect that we would give y'all. And while we say our prayers, and after we got who standing, Commons got on the bullhorn again and he said that if anybody Kristen, Jews or whatever your religious nomination is, y'all want to come down here and pray, y'all can come down here in the same error that we use and pray. And he also requested that they give the other people that came down the same respect that they gave the

Muslim being quiet while they're praying. And that was like the ice and on the cake that broke up a lot of detention. From that point on, the three main groups previous enemies, remember, the Sunni Muslims, the Aryan Brotherhood, and the Black gangster disciples put their differences aside and formed a common bond with each other against the prison administration. So as the days are dragging on, what are you thinking?

I didn't think it was going well. I think the prison authorities with trying they darn best in their mind for good reasons to use stall characters, trying to get their officers back without having to give up a whole lot, and prisoners was not willing to do that because we understood if there was no hostages, they would have thrown the place long comic goal and people would have been murdered and seriously injured, and it was not going to will Then, as we know by now, things took a

major turn on Thursday the fifteenth. How did things change after the Landingham was killed? Once the Landingham body was placed on the recreation yard a kind of speed up the process. The prison authorities knocked stot trying to operate or negotiate in good faith. Eventually negotiator Nikki Schwartz was brought in. Then three days later the uprising finally ended. How did you feel when it was over? I mean relieved, peer could have been over a lot much sona, but

obviously felt relieved. Hassan's relief was short lived. I continue my conversation with the former m MOM at Lucasville, Sadiq Abdellah Hassan. So the investigation is led by the Ohio State Highway Patrol. Talked to me about being interviewed. I was never interviewed once, not because I refused. They never even attempt to interview me. They had already said in a mind that I was going to be used as

a scapegoat. They had already decided to put the point of thing at me, So I never spoke to them once. I never refused the speak to them, and they never made an attempt to speak to me. Hassan says he was never interviewed by the Ohio State Highway Patrol, so his name would not be on that list of interviews they conducted. I check the index, and he's right. Someone else's name is also not on that list, Jason Rob, one of the other so called leaders during the uprising.

Jason Rob's name isn't in here either, right. He said the same thing with him, so I guess mean him within the same boat, being too leaders, a sports person doing the uprising, that they had no intention to come at the top those they're already decide that they was going to make of the straight goa. James Ware's name is also nowhere on that list of interviews. He's another one of the so called Lucasville Five, the five men sentenced to death for their alleged crimes in the uprising.

So these three guys who have been sentenced to death were never interviewed by investigators, So many of these interviews weren't recorded. Why not record him? Why pick and choose when to record these interviews? Abductive or someone saying something that you won't here, then you want to play the recording and make it seem like you just thought him.

But no, you already had a conversation with them Houra two hours, two days before, and now you want to you already know what they're going to say, but you're not going to play something not knowing what they're going to say. So you only want to receive the information that is favorable. By the way, George Skates, maybe the most front and center spokesperson for the prisoners during the uprising, also currently on death row, was only interviewed twice by investigators,

and neither one of those interviews were recorded. Is it just me or does that seem strange? What were you charged with? I was charged with fifteen charges. I can't remember all them, but I know I was a charge with two counts of capital murder, one with regard to Officer landing him another work regards to end a by the name of Bruce Harris. He was murdered on the last day the death of surrender. Did you have anything

to do with Officer of Landingham's No, absolutely not. He was the officer that used to be in mob block. He was a nice person. In fact, he was the most nicest one of all the officers there. Hassan says as he prepared to go to trial, one of the biggest issues he faced had to do with his representation.

His two original attorneys, Rick Kerger and Charles Boss basically told the judge that they could not with what time and money they were allotted, properly represent Hassan In time, they were replaced with two other attorneys out of Cincinnati. In January of nineteen ninety six, after two changes of venue, Hassan goes on trial in Hamilton County, Ohio. And what was the makeup of your joury? They loved a white and one black on my jury, a black gay, and

even the state chatter removed him from my case. But the judge he seems to do so because he no base on the case. Come out of Kentucky. About all removing blacks from jury, I would end up probably getting a reversal. Sounds a bit familiar. Hassen's jury was made up of eleven whites and one black. Keith's jury was

all white. Then there's something else Hassan brings up that I know I've heard before alleged issues with exculpatory evidence, and my child to state that that your honor, we're not aware of any exculpatory information for this particular defendant. But the judge say, is not about whether you are aware or not. You have to go into the rector fives and see if they have any exculpatory information, because

it come out later on than there is. The dates can end up being dismissed for lack of revealing this exculpatory information. So we had another preach r hearing maybe sixty or ninety days later, and my prosecutor saying, we're honor, we searched the file and there's no exculportory information. What physical evidence did they have against you? Absolutely not no physical evidence. So if there's no physical evidence against you, what did the state have? I continue my conversation with

Saddiq Abdallah Hassan. So if there's no physical evidence against you, what did the state have? Self serving or in makes game testimony more than that took themselves, deflected attention from themselves in place to blame on myself the fact that I was the spiritual leader of the Muslims and being the leader I guess h and there my I becomes my brother keeper. So they relied on the testimony of E. In the real snargrass all people who got deals, all

people who got deals rights set. He participated that murders, he kidnapped guards, and a lot of those cases he was not charged with. After the devil was charged with the guards murdered, but he turned state and said what the state wanted him to say. Anthony Lavelle and Roger Snodgrass reportedly both took plea bargains and were released from prison many years ago. I've tried finding both men, but

haven't had any luck. Interestingly enough, though, Roger Snodgrass in twenty sixteen did participate in the Netflix show Captive Anas and this I gave up information on guys to the authorities. Right, It makes no difference to me. If you're judging me, and you're judging me, you judge you, and anybody else wants to judge me. For a fine man, judge me all right, put yourself in my shoes. You know, see how you handle that situation. I don't think most people

would still have enough mind to be saying. After all the ship that I've seen and done and been through in that fucking ride. Yeah, it's I feel man. And one more thing about Anthony Lavelle. He was allegedly the leader of the Black Gangster Disciples, one of the three groups in charge during the uprising. Hassan just said a minute ago that Lavelle cooperated with the authorities and in turn got some sort of deal. Well, what I find curious is that of the five people sitting on death row,

no one from the Black Gangster Disciples is there. How did that happen? How is it that they are the only ones of the three groups in charge that managed to avoid being sent to death row. Could there alleged participation like Anthony Lavelle's have anything to do with it. Then there's Kenneth's Law. That's another name you haven't heard before. He said that myself and James where the one that actually had the officer murder. I gave James Where the order.

But that's not physical evidence. That's based on hearsay and the deal they made with Kenneth Law that he must testify to the truth of his statement. If he deviate away from his statement, then they was going to reindice him. They gave him a polygraph test. He failed a polygraph test polygraph test saying that he was telling a blatant lie, but number the mess myself and other was convicted based

on his testimony. Did Kenneth Law end up recanting, Yes, after the fact, But you know recantation as many case all throughout the United States where people trying to RecA and the prosecutor with challenge it's saying original statement in the chimp and the recantation is a lot. But no,

his recantation is not a lot. In an affidavit from March ninth, two thousand and referring to the trials of Hassan and James Ware, Kenneth Law said quote, I was interviewed several times before both trials and was told what to say. Kenneth Law, who was convicted of kidnapping officer of the Landingham and pled guilty to conspiracy to commit murder in his death, is currently still incarcerated at Northeast Ohio Correctional Center. His next parole hearing is scheduled for

November of twenty twenty five. The trooper didn't know Field Lanham, and all they was interested in is putting the blame at the doorsteps of the leaders of people who was sportsperson trying to bring about a piece of silver in the uprising. In addition to Officer of the Landingham's murder, Hassan was also charged with Bruce Harris's murder. Bruce Harris was believed to have been killed on the last day

of the uprising. Hassan says he didn't kill Bruce Harris, and on that last day during the surrender, there's proof of it. There's a video showing myself, Nicky Sports, Jason rob at Laville as some of the Muslim representative came from Kamoma's, Ohio, actually on the recreation yard. So once again the state put on pergy testimony. They allow prisoners to say that I was president for Bruce Parrish was being murdered, but when you look at the video, I

was evection on the yard. So I was acquitted of that particular charge. Hassan was acquitted of killing Bruce Harris as well as one count of felonious assault. He was found guilty and sentenced sixty six to ninety five years for attempted murder, two kidnappings, felonious assault, and robbery. And as we already know by now he was given the death penalty for the murder of officer of a landing him. I reached out to the two prosecutors in Hassan's original trial,

Gerald Crumpleback and Rick Gibson. If Rick Gibson's name sounds familiar, that's because he was also one of the prosecutors in Jeffrey Wogenstall's case, which we talked about in episode seven. Anyway, I reached out to Gibson and Crumpleback to see if they'd be willing to talk with me about Hassan's case, but neither of them have responded. Today, some twenty seven years since Hassan was convicted and sent to death row, his attorneys are still fighting to get him a new trial.

Hassan says he was granted an evidentiary hearing based on three claims having to do with ineffective assistance of counsel. I am eight deals with ineffectives of counsel for failing to barely investigate my case and call witnesses that could have testified to my actual innocence or could have challenged the state case. The other one, claimed now would have been innocrctisistence of trial counsel for failing to thirdly or examine the witnesses that the state called to the scene.

And thirty one deals with innosecti assistance a trial counsel for failing to investigate my upbringing, childhood for the purpose of medication. And those are just three of the many claims Hassan is raising. Depending on the outcome of that evidentiary hearing, Hassan could be granted a new trial. Until then.

Because Hassan's case is still pending, no execution date has been set, Unlike Keith, who is sentenced to die on November sixteenth, twenty twenty three, I decide to circle back to see if Hassan might be open to answering some questions I still have about Keith. This time I jumped right in. Did you see him inside L six or the L block during the uprising in those early minutes

and hours of the uprising? Not that I can recall. No. Lewis Jones testified at Keith's trial something to the effect of, like they came inside, you know, early on of the uprising to check on their belongings. They saw that stuff was going on, he said. Keith asked for permission to kill the snitches, and then you know if we can kill. If we kill the snitches, will you let us go. Does any of that sound familiar to you at all? No, I wouldn't. I'm looking not around. I'm not gonna say,

don't not tell you. When they start Skinner's Snitches. I was in the Boxer's shop, welcome to some brothers, and that's when some people Muslims came and told me that they down down into you're putting the niches. Yeah, I thought the brothers, wok, go go get some of the brothers, some of the brothers on security and tell them to meet me down there. And we would talk for about a minute, and we saw walking and get people heard we would coming and whoever it was that was the

Nailed six doing the killing, the death squire. What they became known about whoever they were, They had exited on their recreation job, so I didn't get to see who you work, So they were already gone by the time you made it over to L six and direct. So when you got to L six and you saw the people that you wanted put away for safe keeping had been murdered, what did you think one to know? How did they get in here? Who know them in? Yeah? And did you hear any names mentioned about who might

have done these killings? Yeah? I hear a name, but not that I'm trying to conceal it. They think from you it would be a hearsay. And I don't have any courage. I had knowledge only what I hear, right, you know a lot of people came out and said Keith was the leader of the death squad. And if you the imam, you know, was the person who said these people need to be put away for safekeeping. Who's Keith to come in and say, well, no, open the cells,

I'm going to kill them. It's just I wonder how he would have that kind of power, right, Actually, he wouldn't have their power. Don't awake somebody, I guess we say have their power or given their power them would have had to be done through a Muslim. A mustim the thunderstood someone's order a Muslim from them all say forgive them? Are they not moving? Mincrofift and found about being God and allows them in because there were a Muslim that would actually step guided about why do you

let these guys in? This bob? They just opened the door for me to go. I'm on the range, so they let the ports. So I'm getting ready to go back to myself because I've been at two hours and an half and just like that, our time is up and Hussan has to go. I have a few more questions, so we speak one more time. Do you have any regrets or is there anything now looking back that you wish you had done differently? No, because I did everything that I possibly could. The problem is not within the

Muslims of the problems within the one. So no, I don't have any regrets. What would you want to say to the investigators or to the prosecutors who tried your case for the state. I mean, there's nothing to stay with him, because more people already made up their mind to do something because in many cases, especially our profile cases, prosecutors are not trying to see suggests. They are more and less trying to do something to boost their political career.

And when you look at that, when it comes to the Lucas uprising on no prosecutors who have become judge like Daniel Hogan and he's a judge now for Franklin County. They have put their kids to college, They are paid up all their mortgages. Those people doesn't have a conscious, so there's nothing to really say to them. I mean,

it would be a waste of my breath. Rick Kerger, one of Hassan's original attorneys who didn't end up trying his case, was interviewed for D Jones's twenty thirteen documentary called The Great Incarcerator, and what Rick Kerger said in it kind of seems to sum it all up. I don't know what justice is. I mean, God may know what justice is, but I do know what's fair. Did we give a fair opportunity for Hassan and the others to defend themselves and the answers We didn't. There was

a huge thumb on the scales of justice. And if we can do that to them, then they whoever on the system, can do it to you and me next time on the real killer. There's a lot of reasons for people to be against the death penalty. We take a hard look at capital punishment in Ohio. You may be surprised at who's coming together to try and end it. Technically, you could shoot them or hang them, but I have a strange feeling the people of Ohio aren't gonna lie either.

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Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pasheznik, Coordinators George Famm and Melina Kryski. Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Jay Brannon. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio Maya Howard