A warning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence that may be disturbing to some listeners. The door was open for me to become an informant. Months before Keith Lamar is indicted for killing five men during the Lucasville Uprising, he says he's given an opportunity to work with investigators, an opportunity he has no interest in taking. I told him, get the fuck out of my face, the investigator saying to me, you could you know, like, are you insane?
This is a sweetheart deal. I s a sweetheart deals from innocent. If you're gonna sept this deal, I'm here to tell you that we're going to put your black ass on death. Bro I want a trial, You want to trial, We're gonna give you a trial. I'm Leah Rothman. This is the Real Killer. Episode four, Duck your Head and Full Speed Ahead. In nineteen ninety four, Keith is charged with nine counts of aggravated murder for the deaths of Darryl Dipina, Albert Steano, William Savetti, Bruce Vitali, and
Dennis Weaver. His attorneys will have around nine months to prepare for trial. You believed in Keith's innocence. Yes, yes, I still do. That's Hermann Carson, one of Keith's nineteen ninety five trial lawyers. I wonder what Bob Toy, Keith's other trial attorney, thinks, or if he ever asked Keith if he did it. You know, when I deal with a criminal case, I look at the evidence that the prosecutor has. Can they prove this case beyond a reason? Will down? I don't ask my clients are by guilty.
I quite frankly don't give a shit. I get why Bob, as a defense attorney, didn't ask, but I'm not Bob. So I'm just going to ask you, did you kill Dennis Weaver? No? I did? Did you kill Darryl Dpina? No? I did did you kill Albert Steano? No? I did? Did you kill William Sabetti? No? Did you kill Bruce Vatali? No? I can imagine what you're thinking. I shouldn't have to answer that. I mean, I don't think it's unfair to
be asked these questions. Of course, it's fair if we're trying to lab It's the only way to lap the US to ask these hard questions. I've dildn't have spend a months up from day one. Keith answers my questions.
Now I'm going to answer one of his. When I visited Keith, he asked me to look into the possibility the men he's accused of killing were not actually snitches but child molesters and rapists, because if they were, then what maybe that would point to a different motive for why they were murdered, or maybe the snitches label was simply concocted so they would appear more sympathetic to jurors. And look, there's no way for me to really find out if they were snitches or not. But I was
able to find their criminal records. So a couple of them had kidnapping and rape charges, but for the most part they were like murder, felonious assault, arson, robbery. There was one one guy who hold on my look, there was one guy who was at Lucasville for kidnapping and rape. That was in nineteen eighty three, and he had been charged with raping a twelve year old and a nineteen year old back in nineteen seventy seven. I'm not sure if he was convicted. I just saw that he was charged.
So what do you make of that, well, no less speculation. You know. The thing that always struck me about the narrative is that, you know, the state said today were stitches, and everybody just ran with that, you know, because if they, if their actual record was introduced, maybe it were prejudice to jury against you know, caring or having sympathy for them that they had lost their lives in this real
hogrific way. I just don't want to accept without question anything the state has to say in terms of narrative and framing the situation. You know, there's someone else who might be able to shed some light on this. Former Lucasville Warden, Arthur Tate. Do you know if the guys, the inmates who were killed, were they snitches? I don't know. Savetti, I would say absolutely not now, And this is what I was told about Savetti. And I don't know if
this is true. I don't know if you've heard a story similar or contrary or whatever, but Savetti, I mean
I knew him personally. He's an older gentleman. He walked with a walker, and anytime that he saw me in the hallway, he would chase me down and he had something to bit to me about The information that I got was that when the offenders that got the keys, they were African American guys, and they started keying the console and his door popped open, and he came out and saw them at the console and made the comment what are you in guys using the in word what
are you doing? And they went right down killed him. That's the word I got. That's how he got killed. I don't believe he was a snitch. But there were a couple inmates that were involved in the snitch game that were killed. I can't recall their names. So maybe William Savetti wasn't a snitch, but maybe some of the others were. I don't think we'll ever know. I'm not even sure it matters. It doesn't change anything for Keith.
In the months leading up to Keith's trial, one of Bob and Hermann's first orders of business is to get it moved from Sciota County, where Lucasville is located, to somewhere less potentially prejudicial. Here's Bob. We asked for a change of venue and it was granted, although granting it by moving into the next county where most of the people work and Lucasville are associated with it didn't really help much. The trial will be held thirty eight miles
from Lucasville in Ironton, Ohio. That's in Lawrence County, the most southern county in the state of Ohio. The demographics there are similar to Sciota County, well over ninety percent white. Presiding over the case will be Judge Fred Crowe, the third Judge. Crowe was fifty years old at the time of the trial. Today he's seventy seven and retired. I talked with him over zoom. Did you in your years of being a judge have a certain reputation? Yeah, I
kind of did. I actually had a song about hanging Judge Crew. That was the song, and that was a reputation along most of the attorneys I knew. I was a strong advocate for law enforcement. Hanging Judge Crowe like hanging people or what would do? It was a colony dive song A friend of mine Root. Judge Fred Crowe comes from a long line of law and order. His grandfather was a judge, his dad an FBI agent. Keith's attorney,
Bob Toy knows Judge Crowe well. He's argued many cases in front of him over the years he's something else. He was definitely pro prosecution. There's no question about it. It's very simple in Judge Crowe's court. When you get convicted, you're going to get the max from him, and you're going to get the death penalty. That's just like a given. So if the prosecutor gives you an offer and you have a bad case, you might want to take it. The prosecutors who will be presenting the states case are
Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson. They were aggressive prosecutors. They come from Hamilton County. It's a tough county to commit a crime in. They were very aggressive. They were smart. So the teams are in place, the venue is set, but before they can get to jury selection, there are the pre trial motions, lots of them, mostly surrounding discovery, what evidence the prosecution has and what the defense wants them to hand over. This is going to be a
real sticking point in Keith's case. Here's Hermann, Well, we were asking for what's called Brady material, anything that's favorable or exculpatory to the defendant they're required to turn over to the defense, and said anything basically contradicted the state's theory. Of the case, and of course they weren't going to give that to us. And just to be clear, did you have access to the Ohio State Highway Patrol's database of interviews? No? Did the prosecution. Oh yeah, they had
everything integrated. So there presumably are thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of interviews transcripts that you were never given. Correct. In episode two, I talked with Kenneth Marshall from the Ohio State Highway Patrol. He estimated the number of interviews they conducted was around twelve hundred, which is a lot
of interviews. I actually got my hands on the index, and while yes, they were around twelve thirteen hundred interviews conducted, what's more surprising to me is how many times people were interviewed. Some are interviewed once, some twice, some are interviewed five, six, eight times. There's one guy who's interviewed eleven times and another who's interviewed twelve times. How did
that strike you that these men were interviewed so many times. Well, I've seen ones where they have had multiple interviews, nothing like this scope. But you know, this whole situation is about as non standard as it comes the scope of the area where things happen, the number of individuals that could be directly or indirectly or just peripherally involved. You know, there's just nothing comparable to this case in my experience. Here's Bob, this was not a normal case. This was
the case where all the politicians were involved. This was the primary case in the statable while and it rose to that level because of the unfortunate death of mister Vallanahan, who was the guard there that had nothing to do with keys case. After the uprising, around fifty people are charged with crimes like murder, attempted murder, and assault. Five are capital murder cases, meaning they're facing the death penalty,
Keith being one of them. He is charged with killing more people than anyone else during the uprising, and he's the only one facing the death penalty for killing only prisoners. The other four death penalty cases surround the murders of a few prisoners and officer Robert Valandingham. Back to Bob and Hermann, they believe they're getting the constant run around from the prosecutors and Judge Crow when it comes to
their repeated requests for exculpatory evidence. Then a few weeks before the start of the trial, prosecutors over to the defense a list of forty three prisoners names and eleven pages of statements summaries containing potentially favorable evidence. But there's a major hitch. Prosecutors won't match up the names with the statements. It will be up to Bob and Hermann
to try to figure out who said what. So the prosecution said, basically, we promised these guys anonymity, and that's why we can't match up the statements with the names. That's total horseshit, outrageous. I mean, that's ridiculous. It would never be allowed today. It's now June twelfth, nineteen ninety five, the first day of jury selection. Before the potential jurors are brought into the courtroom, prosecutors offer Keith a plea deal.
When Keith gave the final no to negotiated resolution, as I walked out at conference room to tell the judge and esecutor and we had the jury sitting out there getting right to jury selection. It's probably the worst feeling I've ever had in my stomach because I didn't know if I could save Keith's life. That must have been well, I say, I've never felt that it's the worst I've ever felt. Did you give Keith any sort of pep talk?
Duck your head and full speed ahead. What was going to be the biggest challenge in representing Keith to try to find jurors who didn't automatically when they heard Lucasville say guilty. That's herman Carson. He and his co consul Bob Toy, along with prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson, spend several days interviewing potential jurors. After two black jurors are used, they settled on ten women and two men. Well, the jury was all white, mostly high school graduates, you know,
working class. I say, just a typical rural county jury. Here's Bob Toy. Keith is sitting next to me, and he looked at me and Bob, I was supposed to have a jury of my peers. And I looked around the room. I saw the white judge, I saw his white lawyers. I saw the white prosecutor, saw the white jurors, and I said, oh, Keith, baby, this is it. It's terrible. Here's Judge Fred Crowe. Back then, there was several big issues about blacks being excluded for whatever. Basically, the prosecutors
had to have a reasonable excuse a black jury. I don't remember how many black jurors or were, if any, I can't do there weren't any. It was an all white jurry. Okay, So now I know, or now I remember Arts County to be like other counties down there, the percentage of blacks stuff that. Man. I mean, yeah, well a man, I want to tell you so sure, and not on anybody's business. But I just got off while I was on the phone when you called. I was I had a half back on blackball team high
school ball team who was black. Was just called and told me he's getting divorced and he's seventy eight years old. So at least I had one black Frank. It's June twentieth, nineteen ninety five. The jury is seated, the prosecution begins their case. The first witness they call is Sergeant Howard Hudson, one of the investigators with the Ohio State Highway Patrol.
According to the trial transcripts, Sergeant Hudson testified that as part of their initial search and processing of the crime scene, they were around seventy five hundred photographs taken and over twenty thousand pieces of evidence collected. When asked if any of the physical evidence collected pointed to Keith Lamar, Sergeant Hudson says, quote, there was no evidence that came back conclusive that pointed to anybody. The evidence was largely contaminated.
Sergeant Hudson also says that after a certain number of people were interviewed, he along with others, decided to charge Keith Lamar with these killings. I remember a sergeant Hudson I called sergeant zero because he had zero evidence. A nice guy, but they really had no evidence besides a bunch of snitches against Keith. It's just that simple. So with no physical evidence, Bob and Hermann say, the prosecution's case hinges on the testimony of fellow prisoners. What did
all of those witnesses have in common? Well, they had done or participated to some level in the riot and weren't being prosecuted for it. Two of them maybe did have some minor charges filed, but no ways near what they did. According to the trial transcripts, some witnesses receive lesser sentences. It seems one witness is charged with the murder than those charges are dropped and another witness is never charged at all, although he admits a taking part in at least one of the killings, one of the
same Keith is on trial for. It was people who were paid to testify, paid by getting lesser sentence and acquiring their testimony. That's what happened. Nevertheless, there are five men who testify that Keith was involved in the L six murders, All described in varying degrees of detail, how Keith ordered and in some cases took part in the killings of the so called snitches with the help of his death squad. One of those death squad members is
Lewis Jones, also one of the prosecution's star witnesses. On the stand, Lewis Jones claims when he, Keith and another guy went inside L Block to check on their belongings and then got stuck there, Keith came up with the idea of how they could get back out to the yard. I ask Keith about this. It was Jones testified that you turned to him and said, hey, there's no point in us being caught up in this. Let's kill the
snitches and then we can leave. It doesn't follow logically, you know, Let's we don't want to have anything to do with the ride, So let's kill people and so we can be implicated in the ride. You know, that's another thing too. If if I was responsible for the five, that's why let me leave, because somebody we're going to will be, you know, left hole in the back. You know, we're gonna let you kill these five people, and we're going to let you leave, you know, because when at
some point this had to come to the end. They wasn't intended for the riot to last forever. So at some point somebody got an answer for these deaths. So why let the guy who's responsible these deaths just get up to walk out and leave, to leave us having to explain? Yeah, you know, but none of those questions were asked, None of those none of the subscripancies were put to the jewelry. According to that Ohio State Highway Patrol Index of Interviews, Lewis Jones was interviewed eleven times
after his initial statement. He was moved to another prison closer to his family in Cleveland, and although Lewis Jones admitted to taking part in at least one of the killings, Jones was never indicted for anything that happened during the uprising and is now out of prison. I'd like to hear Jones's version of events, and have tried to track him down with no luck. Next on the stand are three men who were in that K block cell where
Dennis Weaver was murdered. They all say, again in varying degrees of detail, that Keith accused Weaver of being a snitch. Then Keith ordered for Weaver to be killed. Michael Childers, one of the men who helped choke Weaver to death, testifies that Keith threatened his life if he didn't jump in and helped finish the job. On the stand, Childers
calls Keith quote an animal. On cross examination, Childers is asked about a letter he wrote to prison officials not long after the uprising, in which he said the FBI had implanted a mini microphone under his scalp back in nineteen eighty six. Childers verse says he doesn't recall the letter,
then he denies it altogether. Here's Herman Well. I praise as serious questions as a competency and the veracity of what weight can you give to somebody who believes that he's had a chip in playing in his brain and people are talking to him through it or communicating with
him through that. As part of his plea deal, Michael children Is pleads guilty to involuntary manslaughter and is sentenced five to twenty five years to run concurrent with the one he was already serving, meaning no time is added to a sentence. It seems Childrens is no longer incarcerated. I've reached out to who I believe is him, but have yet to hear back. Were any of the state's witnesses believable? Not in my opinion particularly, I mean, yeah,
they just weren't in my opinion. I mean the death squad. Initially nobody's identifying him, and all of a sudden they're identifying him. Felt that they were lying, and they had plenty of incentive to lie. I wonder what Judge Crowe thinks about that. It seemed like most, if not all, of the prosecution's witnesses got some sort of deal for cooperating with the state, So that's probably true. I mean that most of them did get something at all. That
happens all the time. Doesn't that muddy the waters? It does, But most prosecutors will tell the jury we don't find our witnesses in church, we find them in prison. And that's very much true. If you eliminate the scumbags testimony against all the scumbags, you would have a hard time convicted anybody because they prosecutors don't choose their witness After all,
the prisoner witnesses testify. Prosecutors call a Louisville captain and correct officer, an Ohio State Highway Patrol trooper, and two pathologists who performed the autopsies on the victims. Once again, we can't forget the victims in all this. I'm sure there are family members and friends out there who are still grieving their loss. Although strangely, according to Keith, Herman, Bob and Judge Crowe, none of the victims family members
ever came to court during that trial. There wasn't one representative of any of those deceased inmates that shared up That struck me as pretty odd. Nobody cared about the five guys who got kids. The prosecution rests their case on June twenty seventh. That afternoon, the defense begins presenting theirs. They call four inmates who testify, in the early hours of the uprising, they saw Keith out on the wreck yard. The times varied, but they said he was out there
and he looked normal. One witness is asked if there was blood or dirt on Keith. He says no. Then they call William Gino Washington. He was in that K block cell and witnessed the murder of Dennis Weaver. He testifies that Keith had nothing to do with Dennis Weaver's death. Then a bombshell drops during cross examination, Prosecutor Bill Anderson says they have an audiotaped interview with Gino Washington that contradicts his entire testimony. Here's Keith's defense attorney Herman Carson.
Excuse my language, but Bill Anderson was so excited, I thought he was going to piss himself. Judge Crowe asks for the jury to leave the courtroom. Then the roughly twenty minute tape is played. On that tape and it's all in the trial transcripts. Gino Washington is heard saying,
Keith and another guy ordered Dennis Weaver's murder. What were you feeling and experiencing when you realize that they had an interview that was basically impeaching your witness, Well, that was fundamentally unfair they should have disclosed that he had been listed as a witness back then. I believe their view is, oh, we didn't know it's going to be exculpatory, you know, and which my views, that's a bunch of bullshit. When the jury is brought back in, the prosecutor asks
Gino Washington about this. Washington says, in that taped interview, investigators at the time we're trying to make him point the finger at Keith and the other guy. He says, he lied and told them what they wanted to hear, because at the time, Gino was scheduled to appear in front of the parole board, and investigators told him that they wouldn't let him go until he was quote off investigation. And today in court he says he's now telling the truth.
And here's another thing I find curious. William Bowling, the main guy who strangled Dennis Weaver, never took the stand for the prosecution or the defense. Remember, the state says that Keith made William Bowling kill Dennis Weaver. So it seems like it would have been a no brainer on the part of the prosecution to have him take the stand and point the finger at Keith. Right, So why
didn't they call him? Maybe the prosecution thought they didn't need his testimony, or maybe they learned something that made calling him to risky and could jeopardize their case. Back to Gina Washington. After he testifies, the defense calls their last witness to the stand, Keith Lamar. I decided earlone, I was going to take the stand, something that I was advised not to do by everybody, you know, but I was determined to participate in every aspect of this process.
Here's Keith's defense attorney, Bob Toy. I believe that by calling him it was not going to hurt his case. Okay, it usually does, but we had a client who was very unusual in reference to being articulate, intelligent. We thought he could handle cross examination, and he did as best he could. We were hoping it would help, could be a last measure of just presenting a human being to a jury. On the stand, Keith maintains his innocence. He says he had nothing to do with the killings in
L Block and in K Block. He admits to Lyne to investigators that he was asleep when Dennis Weaver was killed, but he did not order Weaver's murder, nor did he take part in it, and he has no words to justify why he didn't stop it. On cross examination, prosecutor Seth Tiger asks Keith about the testimonies given by the state's witnesses. Keith says they all lied. Near the end, Seth Tiger asks Keith, quote, do you like snitches? Keith responds, quote,
I don't trust snitches. Then Tiger asks what does it feel like to have the power to order someone's death. Keith answers, I couldn't tell you. I don't know if I've ever asked you this before, but did you ever have an issue or beef with snitches at Lucasville? But you know, I mean, I don't want to be around somebody who I can't trust. So it wasn't that a blanket thing that I don't like snitches. I mean, who
who do you know black snitches? Do? I? Yeah, um no, no. But not liking them and wanting to hurt them are two different things. Well, I'm designsing you. Of course, the leader of the quote unquote death squad, which they said you were. This person led this group of men sell to sell to kill the snitches. That is an intense hatred for snitches, right, it's I don't know that it actually had to be an intense hate with but it had to be something that as an organization, whatever game
that you belong to, it's an organized dog. No, it's a blanket artists or you know called the bay because on a personal level, it's about this person snitched on me. I was, I had drugs in my sale or whatever the case may be. It don't that doesn't automatically, you know, rise to the level of you killing five people. You know, it's a blanket thing. And the only way you have a blanket thing like that if it's a part of the coals of the game that you are in. I
wasn't in the game. You see. That's the thing that you know, people don't you know, That's what I'm talking about. The nuance. You're saying that I came in and you know as some kind of you know, you know, you know long you know, uh say length and you know on this you know, crusade to read the prisoner snitches. If you don't do that as an individual, why would I take on that as as a twenty three year
old man. That didn't happen On June twenty ninth, after seven days of testimony, the case goes to the jury. For this phase of the trial, they will be sequestered. How did you feel as the jury was about to go into deliberations. I didn't feel hopeful. There's no defense I can really put up. Obviously I wasn't on the other side, So there's nothing I completly say about it, but that the witnesses to testified on my behalf. I mean they can say is that they saw me on
the yard. So it was a lame defense compared to what the state put forth. They put forth for a cohesive argument and suppress anything that refute it. What they wouldn't to testify it too. It was laughable, you know, um, although I didn't laugh. The next day the jury comes back with its verdict. Keith has found guilty on all charges. Do I think they had enough to convict them? Oh? I dog people, you know, you know people, it was just shopping at the bit, you know, to return the
guilty but and it wasn't. It's about to ride. You can remember also that you know, this is Radwin oj Simpson, you know, murdering two white people in California, magively. You know, Rodney Key, all that happened. You know, all that stuff was swallows around at that time, you know. So it's a real racial climate where this happened, you know, and so you know, all those things I think ultimately meditators against me. You know, I was guilty at the moment.
I had to manage it well. Next jurors will hear the mitigating evidence, or evidence that makes the case for sparing Keith's life and not giving him the death penalty.
Called to testify are some of Keith's family members and two experts who talk about the intense challenges Keith faced during his childhood, especially the mental and physical abuse at the hands of his stepfather, Larry, and the emotional unavailability of his mother, and how all of that and more led Keith, like so many others who grow up in a similar situation, to be vulnerable to adopting a new set of values, like the values of the streets. On
July seventh, the jury returns its sentencing recommendation. They unanimously recommend the death penalty for four of the murders and life with the possibility of parole after thirty years for the fifth. But it's not over just yet. Judge Crowe has the ultimate say on whether or not he'll take the jury's recommendation. So on August twenty first, all reconvene one last time. This day is like no other because I came onto the court room and it's just full
then the Rome only all white people. Nobody attain to trial. They had all evidence at all his witnesses. Nobody gave a damn about that. You know, but somebody's about to be sensive to death. You know, this was a lynching. And I'm telling you I came out in his court orone and it was just it was a small court orone body, you know, you know what a city capacity boy about thirty people, forty people, not know, but it felt like it was like two hundred people cramped into
this play. They sold up, they showed up, Leah I'm talking about. And was the most unnerving thing. It was the most evil thing I've ever felt on seeing in my life because I knew why they were there. Before Judge Crowe renders his decision, Keith is allowed to address the court. Here is part of his videotaped statement, the only part of the trial that was recorded. The quality isn't good, but I think it's important to hear Keith back in nineteen ninety five, just moments before he's about
to learn his face. By the way, you can go to the Real Killer podcast Instagram page to watch this video. Every man must be here common before it was actually approved of day nineteen eighty eight, I was called students to jurity my ur stuff because of my ashton I played KiB was sensens to two years imprisonment. In nineteen eighty nine. Cute man by name Kenya compons because my ashes are played him. I'm sensor to return of eighteen. It's a lot of prisoner. Nineteen ninety four, I was
charted nine content aggivated murder death pending special cases. But because my aster that I killed and I placed my life and handled prosecute me. Every man must be able common silly man. We shot a unjust system. I don't want to sound like I'm disrespecting any one or even disrespect for myself. I'm number who sett my sin or
a little mysel. Oh bye, just something I don't believe, and I don't believing what took place in Score prosecuted he everything he coached, wits and whoever they would be able. Common said. Apparently Keith's statement makes no impact on Judge Crowe because moments later he upholds the jury's recommendation and sentences Keith to death. Here's Judge Crowe. I was nervous and didn't want to do it, and that's a pretty to me. I thought I'd have no trouble, but actually
came down to it and bothered me. He was a gentleman, and I kind of liked the action hotel, and that's what made it hard to render the verdict. That's what I did. I like Keith. I'm curious. You don't have to accept the jury's recommendation for the death penalty, right, you could shoot, So why did you? Because the aggravating circumstances were certainly outweighed of mitigating situation. When you get involved in killing five people, that's pretty aggravating to me.
And you believed in his guilt. You still believe in his guilt. Yes. In twenty eleven, Judge Crowe retired, citing issues with his health. According to The Athens News, there were rumors that the Ohio Supreme Court's Office of Disciplinary Council had been looking into Judge Crowe's performance on the bench. When a representative for the Disciplinary Council was asked whether or not Judge Crowe was a subject of any sort
of investigation, he said he would not comment. I read that there were some rumors about the Ohio Supreme Courts Office. The Disciplinary Council was looking at your at your record. Can you tell me anything about that would have nothing to do with my conduct of the any trial? But yes they did. I had a couple of awful employees that tried to get me in trouble, which nothing came
of us. But nothing to do with any case I had before or after any case, nothing to do with any of my judicial decisions that I could think of. The Athens Knew said that they were looking at your performance on the bench. Well, they were looking at my conduct and uh, but it had nothing to do with any rulings made in reference to a major trial. Was
put that way? What it was, if you want to know, Delegate, part about it was that commissioner's wife when I had a crush on me once upon a time, and a commissioner storted that he's the one I told the papers about the big investigation of the judge. It was bad publicity. I mean, they didn't have any charges or anything they said. Any big investigations on mount doesn't have anything to do with the rulings, that being prejudice against anybody or anything
like that. When I tell Keith that I spoke with Judge Crow, I'm so he said it's a fair trial and everything. Huh oh, well yes, um oh that's what he's saying. They have them evidence with overwhelming Yeah. He also said that he liked you. You know, I'm not. I mean, I'm not laughing like you know, like I'm enjoying what you're saying. This is absurd, man, It's just like these fucking people man, you know, my god, there's
too much man, you know. And this person you know, to sit somewhere wherever the fuck he's sitting at right now, Judge Crow, I'm trying to say that he really liked me. No, that he you know, you know, you know I don't. You don't imagine how many times I don't heard ship like that for somebody who just put my toothbrush in their ass, or you can do my meal and the talling, you know what I mean. And the same person I want to talk to you about you know what I
mean about your family, how your mother doing. No these fucking people based on there. Yeah, I'm just previously. You know I've already battled. I'm in the court room. I'm back in nineteen ninety five. I'm sitting in this court room. I'm just envisioning this ship. I came in this court room. I was defended. We wasn't friends and sit down and exchange words that they're listening to. Washington fucked me over. That's and he liked me. He's like, you know what,
court woul you was here. We wasn't in no fucking picnic, sitting in no motherfucking resting rock Charon and meal. You was sucking me up. My life. You're taking my life, you know what I mean. I get mad because you know I did take to see it personal, because you know, how can I not. Here's Keith's attorney, Bob Toy. We did the best we could with what we had, is what I've believed. I gave him my whole heart, and I know Herman did too. I have a picture of Keith, myself, Herman,
and our intern Molly waiting for the death verdict. It's across me in a little counter and I put it up there front and center. Oh, I've used it many times. I said, hey, you don't have to listen to what I say, and if you want to go to trial, we'll go to trial. And I say, this guy went to trial. And sometimes we give people advice they don't listen to, and sometimes not for a good reason. Keith had a good reason. This reason is he said he didn't do it. And you know, over the years, you'll
look back at it going, oh my god. I don't think they had enough evidence and I don't think he did do it. So that's where you're at. And should they have convicted him based upon what they had in the manner in which they did it. No. I reached out to prosecutors Seth Tiger and Bill Anderson to see if they'd be willing to talk with me. Seth Tiger called me back and left me this message. Heymis Rothman.
This is Seth Tiger from the Hamilton County prosecutor. I was one of the prosecutors on the Keith Lamar Lucastil prison riot case. I've talked to Bill Anderson, who's also a Hamilton County prosecutor, and we were co prosecutors on that case, on the Keith Lamar case, anyway, we are not interested in getting involved in your investigation or podcast, So anyway else is going to let you know that thanks to the call, and anyway, that's it. Thanks. I'm
going to keep trying, but you should know that. Seth Tiger did talk to The New York Times for a February twenty twenty two article they did on Keith in his case. In it, Tiger said this quote, we turned over everything that we were required to under the rules of discovery to Bill and I. He is extremely guilty. He is where he belongs on death row. I did speak on the phone with Sergeant Howard Hudson, who testified at Keith's trial and was very hands on in the
investigation for the Ohio State Highway Patrol. At first he agreed to participate, then he started following me on Instagram. A couple of weeks later, he texted me this quote, I'm sorry, I've changed my mind and no longer wish to participate. By the way, the real killers at Lucasville are the ones we convicted. So with a trial over, Keith is transported to a prison in Mansfield, Ohio on my ride from Lucasville's Mansfield. I think I just doubled down in terms of my attitude that I would resist
this whole process. And I didn't know obviously what shape that would take, but I knew that I was going to fight. When they brought me off the van that day and was about to walk me to the death row unit, I stopped walking. And I don't know what made me do that. It just seemed like if I was going to fight them, that I might as well start right now. And I just stopped walking. And you know, the guards, you know everybody, they seem confused, like why
aren't you walking? And you know I'm innocence. Next time I'm the real killer. But I tell you what, if I one day found myself strapped to a journey, if these people will not be able to call it justice, will not be able to say that we did right by this person, a chance at a new trial goes up in Flames, I remember, and walking past me on his way out of the courtroom, I mean he said, good lucky. And for Keith, desperate times call for desperate measures.
It puts you through all this bull shit, and you if you get angry. See, that's proof that he's an animal. No, that's proof that I'm a human being, that this shit hurt if the ship you're doing to me is painful. The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George fam Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Anna Moolshan. Legal counsel for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya Howard