When 2008 crashed, when Lehman Brothers crashed and Bear Stearns crashed in 2008, the Fed acted quickly and they lowered rates, interest rates, which allowed you to maneuver. And I think today, by comparison, they're not doing that. The Fed is trying to keep rates high to fight inflation. I think a lot of real estate investors are probably experiencing challenges because, you know, you were we're all used to 3% financing and now it's... I don't even know where it is.
Welcome to the Real Estate Life show. Thank you, Vinki. I'm excited to be on your show. Me too. I can't wait. Okay, here's a little bit about Mark. He's an entrepreneur, investor and a founder of Quantum Capital, a multifamily syndication firm. He is also an Emmy, Emmy nominated writer, producer, He is also an Emmy, Emmy nominated writer, producer, voice actor and original writer and Family Guy. Oh, my God. I need to talk about that. That's super awesome.
Today, we'll be discussing today's market trends versus 2008. So, Mark, before we start digging into the current market trends, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and how did you become who you are today? Sure. I grew up in Ohio and I was kind of a head in the clouds, kid. I in high school, I always like to draw and I got hired in high school to be a caricature artist at SeaWorld in Ohio. Believe it or not, there's a SeaWorld in Ohio. There are. There was.
I got struck by lightning while I was drawing caricatures there. But after college, I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. But I. I drew a lot of cartoons and and did some writing. And I got hired in. I got hired by American Greetings, if you're familiar with that greeting card company. And I was in a new department called the Alternative Humor Department. That was kind of an experimental department.
It was during the nineties, and if you remember the nineties, everything was like hip in in counterculture. And so they were American Greetings was trying to capture that that Gen-X market. And so we could kind of do whatever we wanted. So we just tried to make ourselves laugh with all these weird cards. And the reality is nobody bought our cards. We were like a bunch of 20, 20 somethings and drawing, making these weird cards surreal.
But the average greeting card buyer was what I learned while I was there is like maybe a 64 year old grandmother, and none of them ever bought our cards. But those cards, those weird cards that I made, got me hired to write for David Letterman in New York. And so I went to New York City to write on the late Show. And then I moved out to L.A. because I realized most of the entertainment business was out there. And I got to L.A. and I got I got a meeting.
I had arrived in L.A., and my agent who was there, my new agent, said, Oh, I'm the one who told you to come out here, but you just missed the staffing season. There's no jobs. Everything's all the shows are filled up. And so I was like, Oh, well, that's great timing. I'm broke. And I just I just moved across the country. But she goes, Oh, but you drew all the you have all these drawings and these cartoons, So I'm going to call you an animator and I'll get you a couple of meetings.
I'll see if I can get you some meetings with you know, now that everything is is in production. And so I got a meeting at Fox because they were doing The Simpsons, and I had a good meeting with these executives, and they said, you know, they said, we like your material, but there's no we have no shows. But why don't you go? You should go meet this young guy who's just starting a new show. And I'm like, sure, whatever, I, I got plenty of free time on my hands.
So I met with Seth Macfarlane when he was like 20 years old. He'd just graduated from Rhode Island School of Design, and he showed me his like short, his animated short for Family Guy. And and he said, You should come write on this show. And I was like, okay, I could I could use a job. And I took home this little short of that of that. And I watched it that night and I was like, I don't think this show is going anywhere. And so I got hired and I used my first script payments.
I'm like, I'm in this giant city, Los Angeles, that I'm not familiar with. And so I used my first script payments on Family Guy to buy a duplex. And because I needed a way to survive in this this new business. So that kind of kicked it off. I've been working on Family Guy more or less ever since. I've created a couple of shows, written a couple of movies, and but mostly been on on Family Guy, where I've been an executive producer and voice actor.
Sometimes they they have me do quite a bit of brain damaged characters. And I'm not I'm not sure why I get picked for those but but yeah that's it And I, you know, I went all in on real estate back, back from the beginning. I loved it and I did really well, like in the late nineties when I, when I just moved out there and, you know, just currently have a company called Quantum Capital. We've we've been going for a decade at this point and it's great. It's it's fine.
I try to balance both of my worlds, my, my writing and and also the real estate. I kind of feel like my real estate's going to be what I'm going to be, you know, still be doing when I'm 90. Yeah, I. When you retire, Right. Fine. Yeah, right, right. But let me ask you this question. So when I when was the turning point for you So when I when was the turning point for you that you feel like, oh, I need to do real estate because you were like, big time in real estate? Yeah. From the first duplex.
Did you buy or you did you have enough knowledge Did you buy or you did you have enough knowledge to start in real estate or how did that whole thing started? That's what I wanted to know. Yeah, I, I was looking for some way to survive because I didn't really trust the entertainment business. I didn't think I'd be steadily employed. So. So I remember meeting a woman named June on this is back in like 98,
1998. And, and she said, you know, she asked me if, like I was renting an apartment, a one bedroom apartment at the time, and she was like, you're in the entertainment business. You're making some good money now. You should put it towards a mortgage. And I remember telling her like, there's no way I want the the burden and the responsibility of a mortgage because I could be unemployed in the next couple weeks.
And she goes, No, but it's still you know, you're in a good market and, you know, prices go up. It's a good investment. And I told her, I said, if you could find me something that will give me stability so that I could sleep better at night, I'll do it. And so she kind of mentored me and she coached me with this first deal. And it was a it was a listed it 400. And no, it was listed at $365,000 back in 1998. And I won a bidding war with like 15 buyers and I paid $435,000.
So about 70,000, $65,000 over asking. And I thought I made a huge mistake. I thought I just screwed up and I was going to go bankrupt. But I stuck with it. I tried to operate, learn how to operate it. And and five years later, you know, just to get at the five years later, I sold it for $1.27 million. And I and I thought like, oh, I have to do this all the time. This is all of my money is is going into real estate.
And it kind of created a virtuous cycle because from that moment forward, I never cared about a car like, I don't need a nice car. I wanted to put all my money into real estate and learn everything I could about it. And more or less, I did that. Hmm. So what are the current market trends for real estate investing now? I mean, it has been the wild over the years. It's not there's no comparison between nineties and now. So if you talk about that. Right, right.
Yeah. Well, we went through a lot during that time and you know, every time there's some drama in the economy it's it's a nice it's a normal it's another notch in your belt like I remember we went through my first adverse situation was the dot com bust of like 2000 and, and then there was 911 and then there was the Iraq war, and then that was 2008. And then we went through the Great Recession, learned a ton there, saw what happened and saw how things shift and change.
And then, you know, came out of that and through the teens and COVID. And, you know, there's a lot of different there's a lot of different, you know, different economies. And you think, you know what's coming. And sometimes you've got a whole new situation. And I think today is is in a lot of ways a new situation.
If I were to if I were to compare today with the Great Recession, which was, you know, the big always, it's always cited as, you know, along with the Great Depression, it's it's the big the big event that was very adverse and difficult for our whole country. But in a lot of ways, I think today with with the high interest rates and inflation, I think for real estate investors specifically in a lot of ways it's harder than 2008. In 2008, the Fed lowered.
There was some there was a lot of problems with the economy. There was some there was a lot of problems with the economy. But in to that when 2008 crashed, when Lehman Brothers crashed and Bear Stearns crashed in 2008, the Fed acted quickly and they lowered they lowered rates, interest rates, which allowed you to maneuver. And I think today, by comparison, they're not doing that. They're they're keeping the Fed is trying to keep rates high to to fight inflation.
And I think I think a lot of real estate investors are probably experiencing challenges because, you know, you you were we're all used to 3% financing and now it's I don't even know where it is. It's five and a half. Six and a half. I think even more I've seen that even higher interest rate.
But the thing is, you know, interest rates being so high and then we have kind of similar situations like the Lehman Brothers, you know, in 2008, like the Silicon Valley Bank and the other banks, you know, going belly up. So what is your perspective on that? How do you see the market now compared to that? A similar scenario but not similar at the same time?
Yeah, it's it's it's reminiscent of 2008 that that we're seeing the collapse of these giant institutions that you thought would never go down. But it's it's a symptom of what we're all dealing with. It's it's it's the high interest rates and I get it the Fed is the Fed wants to fight inflation because high inflation does a lot of damage to the overall economy.
But but fighting that inflation by by boosting interest rates up to, you know, 7%, you've got a lot of a lot of real estate owners that are upside down that they they don't the income that they have from their properties does not cover the mortgage with those kind of rates now. But what's going to happen, you know, if you have a crystal ball to see, not this year, maybe next year in 2024 or 2025 and all the bridge is going to come towards the end, right.
For the tail of a lot of people this year to maybe towards the end of the year. So what is it going to look like at that point for some other operators? Yeah, there's going to be a lot of opportunity for people to get into these kind of deals, but at the same time people are going to be losing their shirts as well. Yeah, Yeah. I think I think like obviously you're in the same world that I'm in and there's a lot of operators that there's a lot of syndicators and a lot of new syndicators.
It's probably grown. The syndication world has expanded dramatically over the last six years or so. And I think and kind of the ironic or sort of maybe cruelly funny or darkly funny is, is it's such a social media driven world. And I think now for the last ten years, like syndicators just go out and tout their their triumphs and their success and how how great they're doing, because they're they're all raising money.
But I think there's probably a lot of silent screams right now amongst operators because a lot of them are stuck and and, you know, whether it's their I don't know that it's necessarily their fault. It's just their you know, they got caught they got caught in this situation, the economic situation we're in right now. And, yeah, I feel I feel for them. It's a good it's a hard lesson that you got to be conservative with your leverage and and be careful. That's true.
And plus, COVID 19 pandemic has played a big role as well. Right. What shifts have you seen in your area where you are investing in your markets? Oh. Okay. You may be familiar. You're in the same state as I am. Yeah, the COVID, the COVID, they they they have eviction moratoriums, rent freezes, all these all these new regulations got put on to landlords and property owners.
And, you know, we've I don't know if I think some I'm sure some operators are the fact that they can't they can't raise rents and now it's going on, you know, two and a half years now I think that's impacting obviously having an effect effect and more and more owners have to go out of pocket. So to keep paying the bills. Mm hmm. Interesting.
And then earlier, you were talking about, you know, how operators, social media is very powerful and how all these operators, they just use those social media portals to advertise themselves and put themselves out there. And we are we are doing this great, this and that. Well, I'm going to talk about a former investor perspective. How can technology be leveraged to improve their investing decisions. And their investment decisions?
Yeah, especially in today's market, because there's so much gimmick and then so much information out there, it's very hard for an investor to select the right operator or the right market is like in too much information download right there. Right. I think, you know, knowing the operator helps and looking if you're an investor trying to find a good operator, I would look at the the debt ratio.
You know our this this you know people like I mentioned earlier, people may be learning a hard lesson right now. But, you know, in the past, you know, three or four years when the markets boom and if, you know, if you've seen multiple cycles, yeah, everybody everybody starts out maybe relatively conservatively. You know, maybe the maybe you you you get into the investing business, the multifamily investing or real estate investing, and you think you think like 75% or 60% is a is a good rate.
But then you get successful, you have these super successful year after year, you get a little you can get a little more aggressive or be tempted to and then pushing they're pushing that debt further and and then maybe even getting into bridge territory. And I know pre-COVID and even during right after COVID, there was a lot of operators using bridge on, you know, almost every deal. And and you know, when when the market's favorable, it could work wonders for returns.
But, you know, if the market turns, you could be you could be in a bit of trouble. Yeah, it could be hard. And but I think a lot of people are comparing to this market with 2008 like we're talking earlier, you know, But I don't believe that is 100% true. I'm not sure what you're thinking because we have love from every experience we learn. That's the basic norm for human beings, right? Because we got in. We are smart. Every time we experience something, we learn something from that.
So I just feel like from the 2008 crisis, we have learned some lessons and I wanted to hear from you. I mean, you know, what is applicable from those lessons in today's market? Yes, I think let's see, I think in 2008, one of the big one of the big issues was that they created these new loan products. And I think it goes back to that. There was a I think 2008 kind of kicked off with a couple things. It was they deregulated and I think it was maybe ten years prior to 228 actually happening.
And they also allowed American United States U.S. debt, real estate, mortgage debt was really attractive around the world. It was seen as very safe. So, you know, banks kind of lost their way. And they were they were these these these debt vehicles were so profitable. And a lot of the rest of the world wanted them that it was really profitable, profitable for banks just to make as many loans as they can.
And you probably remember this, but remember, like first burst, like they opened up sub prime loans. That was not a thing prior to 2008. It didn't exist. There was always like 40% of the of the market that just couldn't get couldn't get loans, home loans. It seems maybe fascinating now that that was the case, but there was a time when most you know, not quite most, but 40% of the of home buyers could not get a loan.
But then in order to sell these products around the world, they relaxed the standards. And then you probably remember vaguely that they they relaxed, they kept relaxing it. It became like, okay, you don't really need to show your your W-2s to us. And and you could do you could just tell me you have a job. You don't have to show have proof of of job or income. So there was like what were they were called like nolo loans or something. No, no, no stated income. No, no job necessary.
So those were just a catastrophe that was inevitable. Like there was there was trillions of dollars in these bad loans. And they they got packaged and shipped off to around the world. A lot of it was managed by those Wall Street, those big Wall Street banks. And you know that obviously we all watched that when they all collapsed because there was so much bad debt. Mm hmm. I think that's the reason maybe you think we are in this situation now because it's kind of a ripple effect, Right?
Take a little bit time. Yeah. Yeah. I think we saw you know, I feel like Silicon Valley Bank, Credit Suisse, some of the victims that that happened.
Now, maybe there was something that seemed reckless and really grossly irresponsible in 2008 with the way that that banks and lenders, you know, they they were willing to to make bad loans and knowingly and part of the reason they did that, because they knew that this bad loan that they you know, each bad loan that they made would only be on their books for maybe a month.
And then they would they would package that up to Wall Street firms and then they'd send those securities around the world and and investors bought them up. And but they were all terrible loans because they were all like ticking time bombs. And so when they when all those that you I'm sure you remember the the waves of foreclosures because these people that got loans, they couldn't pay their loans. And so there were whole communities.
I think there was like parts of L.A. where the entire, you know, for like a mile, like every house was under foreclosure. Like in these new developments. That's true. And everybody's going to talking about creative financing these days, you know, And you might have seen that, too, right? So they are coming out with different ways of getting this more creative on the lending side. On the financing side, have you seen something like that or can you share something in your area that you have seen.
Like ways to maneuver around, you know, the obviously super high backing of interest rates? You know, we're doing a a deal right now that and, you know, during a time like this, you're looking we're all kind of looking like, how can how can we how can we navigate this current real estate market effectively with with these high interest rates that we're all dealing with? And I what are my strategies is, you know, there's to take a step back.
As you probably know, there's two huge demographics right now. There's the baby boomers, who is the largest demographic in U.S. history. And now, like their their offspring, which is the the millennials are is has now surpassed the baby boomers. So we've got two giant demographics. One of them is all in their retirement going into retirement, the baby boomers and the millennials are entering their homebuying years. So that that's a long winded way to get to.
Like I, I think a strategy that you could use now is is and that I think about is like look for post debt investors in what I mean by that is like look for those baby boomers who are maybe in their seventies eighties, they don't want debt. They they have properties and investment properties that are free and clear and and you could go to them and that's the that's the buyer that's the seller that you want to buy off of because they have no debt.
You know, in normal times, most of the people you buy from have a debt, have a loan that's due. And so they're limited on what they can do. But I think in today's world, you've got you can buy you have some opportunity to buy off of seller who who doesn't need or want debt and some of them you know, the property that we're buying right now is the seller has owned it for 40 years. There's no debt on it. And he's tired and he he's a self manager.
And so, you know, he's very willing it's very appealing to him to to sell the property and to provide debt. And he's providing us with 2% a 2% loan for three years, which is phenomenal when when rates are as high as they are. And he's happy he's getting some cash flow. He's he's getting everything he wants. He's getting cash flow and no more headaches of self managing and I think there's there is millions of those sellers out there if you can connect with them.
Like we're paying them so they can do the seller financing. I think that's a really good one too. But with where do you see the future of the multifamily investing, you know, for the next few years now And then I think like you were talking about the generational change or the experience for the new generation is totally different because today's generation and you're in the writing, what you write for Family Guy, you know, and you are way ahead of the game.
what you write for Family Guy, you know, and you are way ahead of the game. We had most of the people are most of the people We had most of the people are most of the people We had most of the people are most of the people the way they are thinking, you know, So if you see in Experience, The experiential generation, that's what I call them. All these companies popping up, you know, here they are like, right.
And then dashed or whatever they are, they don't wanting to buy properties or they don't want to hoard like our generation was. We are like more into hoarding by a big house, by a big car, all that. So like they wanted to experience life and they wanted to maybe rent more or maybe hire a cab versus buying a car. So what is your perspective on that you think is going to change the dynamics for the investors going forward in the future of for the next few years?
I would I would you know, I'm far from an expert on this, but I would think that that as they get a little bit older or start to have families, they'll they'll recognize the the value of an appreciating asset which which homeownership brings.
I know right now there is in I honestly like didn't read read the economy be that way at first is like why are why are our why does why is there such a large demographic that's still renting into their you know that have good incomes but are renters by choice and and I think yeah there is an expediency in a convenience of of not having that but I wonder if long term at some point they're going to want to settle into a property that's going to that's going to increase in value
if they'll be if they become more, you know, investment folk focused as most people do, as they get older. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I think that investors, they like to invest, but at the same time, they are like more experience oriented. So that's the reason all this. And then when I see all these companies popping up, you know, like all were dashed or mortgage companies, it's like cannot buy shares like sharing is getting kind of thing you know is like share where everything is being shared.
So I just wonder sometimes, you know, what is going to look like. I know. So maybe it's going to more opportunity for the people to invest in multifamily because is more people are renting. We need more housing on that side versus single family homes. You know, that could be like really good opportunity right there. But again, you know, it's like all depends, you know, different thinking, different process of doing things. But anyways, we are out of time and I love to continue this conversation.
But at this point, I wanted to ask you one golden nugget for my audience. You know, I think for I think if you're a real estate investor, maybe you maybe you consider that strategy. The strategy that I mentioned of of look for post debt sellers in today's environment as a way to navigate it and what other what other gold nugget. Yeah don't take it too seriously. I feel like a lot of my I'm in I'm in two rooms on almost every given day.
I'm in the Family Guy writer's room and I'm in with my team, my real estate team. And sometimes I often, you know, you get stressed out and I, I go to the family Guy room and I realize like, oh, yeah, it's this is important. Like, you know, it's important for your health, for your mental well-being. You got to laugh. And I think that's one of the gifts of that show, is that you go you go there every day and you make fun of other people and they make fun of you.
And nobody really takes anyone or themselves that seriously. And it's a good it's healthy. I love that golden nugget. Don't be serious. It's just life, you know? Let's have fun, because life is all about having fun. And don't forget to live, right? If you're chasing money and then chasing work or whatever you're after, you're missing out on a living. So don't be serious. Love that. So this brings us to our rapid fire round. I'm going to ask you five questions you have to answer in one sentence.
Lee, are you ready. In one sentence only. Okay. I'm terrible on my feet, but I'll try. One word or one sentence. Okay, Let's try. Let's try. How you can do it. What is the one most important thing that you've learned in your life, and how did it change your life after learning it? What is the most thing? The most important thing I've learned in my life? Letting go. Yeah, that's the best. What is the best book that you have read? Or it meant to my audience, the.
Best book that I have read, Catcher in the Rye. I see it all in one word. What does life mean to you? Community? I like that. What is your biggest passion? Running. If you could turn back in time and talk to your younger self, what would you tell yourself and why. Go for it? I would tell them, Go for it because you only live once.
That's that's the juice in life is, as you know, don't take yourself seriously as part of that, because I think you know the fear and if you don't take yourself that seriously, I feel like I don't take myself seriously. And as a result, I try things and I'm happy to fail. And I think, you know, I succeed because I fail. I love that everybody's got to be ready to fall on their face. So true. I like that I'm in the same boat as well. So, Mark, how can people reach out to you? A You can.
Let's see. My my company is Quantum capital. You could come check our check out our website and yeah, you could shoot me an email if you'd like. By It's my full name at Mi.com. Yeah, reach out. Love to meet you. All right. Thanks for being on my show today, Mark. I really enjoy mine. Thanks for having me. It was it was great. It was awesome.