Questlove Supreme: Speech of Arrested Development

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeart Radio, Ladies and Gentlemen. It's another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I'm your host Quest Love. We have the Almighty Team Supreme with us bon Tikolo Brother.

How's it been going.

I'm good man, I'm doing yoga.

Nice.

Hey, y'all to Flo Bro, I'm out here.

We down with dog and Pigeon posing on all of your old niggasa.

That's nice, all right? Cool? Cool?

We Particulo is going to get is told. We've passed it. Go past eighty maybe to ninety or one hundred.

Yes, I'm taking you to BIMs from taking hot yoga.

I know, yo yoga. How about album with you? Yeah?

Yeah, that's what's up, y'all.

Steve as as Steve Slice's cigarette.

I'm doing yoga too. How to start a Yet, everything's cool.

Working on a lot of stuff you're doing.

I don't know in your mind if it's like mocking or not mocking, like with the network and all that. But I got to say, in the last three weeks, but you're doing like major, major, major shit, Like you're not just like doing like RINKYDNK Jazz records. Like I almost feel like you're out here trying to save jazz music.

Like, well, what's been going on? Man?

We got a lot of records coming out. It's Jmi's name of the label. We're coming up on twenty Records. It's been like five years that we've been around and finally got you on the label. Recently we're mixing that record with David Murray and Ray Angry and yeah, I'm not Well, there's a lot of great jazz labels out there obviously still doing it, but we're doing it all analog with tape and never touching digital in any way.

Where you started in twenty eighteen.

Yeah, yeah, started shortly after course up Supreme.

It's a movement, man. The Sugar Network is the Army better yet the Navy.

Well, it's like a little fan club for the for this podcast. Basically that's how it's That's how it started, but it's expanding.

It absolutely is all right, wait, so just let me know, JMI, is your logo at least close to the CTI label, like there are.

Some similarities to we stole some of some of their design aspects for our stuff, but not not the logo specifically.

All right, but yeah, keep it tr we keep it old school.

Uh.

How's it going.

Oh it's going good. I'm I got the flu, but I don't want to miss speech. So you got yeah, you know, talking to a bunch of niggas doing Grammy weekend. I'll make you sick trying to book people. But in the good news, Oh quest love supreme Honey. I was on the strip with my leg and my skirt up, like, come on, nas, come on Leslie Jones like yep.

Soies might just visit.

But he said he would. He said to me he would. He said to me, Yeah, I went to.

Oh, okay, that's what's up. That's what's up. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I will say that, you know.

Uh. This interview is close to my heart because as a founder leader of one of the most legendary groups and hip hop, a group really really responsible for laying out the carpet for a group like the Roots to come down and be able to have a career.

I will say that, you know, this gentleman has.

Pretty much made a profound impact on the music industry just with the level of I guess the first wave of black Joy. Like we weren't using terms like black Joy back in nineteen ninety two, nineteen, you know, we just basically called it alternative rep. But it's almost like I never liked the term alternative rep because Lauren Hill once told me that alternative rep just means like no skills,

As far as hip hop winning Best New Artist, I.

Will say that his group's debut album really just set a high water mark for just music period, just a feeling, definitely a blueprint that I followed, and it's this conversation is seriously long overdue. Ladies and gentlemen, Please welcome to Quest Left Supreme. I don't know if we ever had a one title person before, because I'm used to saying like the full name, I don't want to say Welcome.

All of these words very much mean the world to me. I appreciate it. Man. It's good to be here. It's been a minute. Man, it's been a minute.

It's been a good minute. It's been a good Yeah. In fact, where are you talking to us right now? From where are you at?

This is my studio.

I call it the podium, and I'm at my crib, so all my property. I have a separate building and it's my studio. So I'm in here.

And the Georgia Ok.

Yeah, stay with Georgia Fayetteville area.

Yep, So you've stayed in Georgia that that entire time of your.

Since yeah, since nineteen eighty seven.

Yo. Didn't we meet in Milwaukee?

I know that you have roots in Milwaukee, but I'm trying to figure out if I met you in Milwaukee once.

You guys were rocking the show at Summerfest, which is one of the largest music festivals in the world. Actually, and I sell roasted corn at Summerfest. My father opened up a hot roasted corn stand business at Summerfest forty six years ago. And so my wife and I have been doing that business. Well, I was working at it since I was nine years old, but my wife and I started working that business taking it over for my dad for probably I'm going to say sixteen years or so.

All right, So I'm totally just going to throw away my initial questions because now you piqued my curiosity because I too, am in the food world. But I gotta know, like, how do you maintain that business?

My dad he was trying to get his foot in the door because we're the one and only black owned food company in Summerfest, and Summerfest is huge.

I can't say that enough.

So and so basically he wanted to get his foot in the door. They were offering soul food as an option, so on and so forth. But he was just studying the landscape and realized that roasted corn would kill for the audience that tended to go to Summerfest at that time, and so he was going in as a roast corn business and it started off literally bananas, like so many people were into it, like you were describing the dude that was outside of SOB's. It was lines around the

And so or is he a chef by nature or no, not at all.

In fact, he learned how to roast it the best that he could, and it was just dope.

Everybody loved it.

And it was way above any competitors at other, you know, state fairs, because Milwaukee also has a state fair which is really big, was way bigger than the people that sold it there. So everybody just started falling in love with Robbie's roasted corn. And that was my dad, whose name is Robert. Yeah, so he started that whole tradition.

Yeah.

No, not on a stick, no, no, You roast it in a roast on a roaster, and then you pull back the husk and you let that husk you hold the hust, so you keep the hust.

You know a lot of people take the husk off Mexican style exactly.

And you hold that husk and then you wrap a paper towel around it.

You dip it.

We dip it in butter, like literally a crock pot full of butter. We dip it in there. And then we have various seasonings, you know what I mean, from anything from lemon pepper to Mexican style, which is like a mayonnaise and so on and so forth, rubbed on it.

It's better than fried chicken, it really is.

Actually, it's incredible. It's incredible.

Yeah, it's just a local phenomenon. You guys never expanded outside of Milwaukee.

Or not in a huge way, not yet.

Like we strive to get into Disney World and stuff like that, and just we're unsuccessful doing that. But the truth is is that we've done like Atlanta, which is where I live. We've done Chicago, So this is regional to where we're sort of based out of.

But we haven't taken it national or anything like that.

Bruce Picnic, twenty twenty four.

That's what I'm saying. But even at that, consider it done.

I would do that for real. Shit, all right, you know what I'm saying.

Are you growing your own corn? Do you have a farm?

No?

I know there's a music podcast, but I'm just really interested.

And I get it. I get it. We source our corn from different growers.

So obviously corn is very seasonal, so we try to make sure we get the best corn. We try to get a mixture of white and yellow corn, and so it's really really delicious and it's just it's more flavorful than your normal yellow corn. And so we get it sourced from different producers and you know, farmers and stuff like that.

Oh his mind is yeah, I'm because I I mean, I just purchased a farm. I don't have plans on utilizing it as a farm farm farm. Yes, there's a greenhouse to grow like vegetables and whatnot, but that's just like my personal consumption. But again, because I'm getting into the alternative food space and all those things, and you know, not to mention, there's a brother from Milwaukee actually, Will Allen basically pioneered inner city urban farming and kind of

Like growing up in Philadelphia, I.

Didn't realize that, you know, we had go outside to the suburbs. We had to go to Upper Darby to find fresh fruits, organic food, right.

You don't have that in the inner city.

And so that's what made me interested in plant based foods and developing that and not like, you know, I think people are tend to thinking like we want to replace it or whatever. Yes, granted, yes, I know, Patrick from impossible foods wants to replace you know, meat, which right, yea more power to I truly, I believe in twenty years what we know is food now will be phased

Yeah, totally totally shout out to Milwaukee. That's dope.

Okay, so dope, yes, absolutely, Now I'll get it back to my real question.

What was your very first musical memory?

I would I would say it was seeing the Jackson five show on Saturday mornings. That was probably my first musical memory. And watching Michael Jackson and the Jackson five that cartoon slash. I think they might have had like real scenes as well, so I think it was a mixture.

Well it was, Yeah, it was a cartoon.

And then they had a variety show too, so.

Right, the Variety Show of seventy seven. I just found out that when the Silvers moved from Tennessee to Los Angeles, you know, they the Silvers, you know, they had variety as a singing group. They've been singing together since they were kids. But when they got to Hollywood, one of the first jobs that two of the Brothers had. One of the brothers in the Silvers was the voice of Jackie.

And I believe, I believe Jermaine.

Yeah, Jackie and Jermaine were voiced by members of the Silvers.

Yeah.

See, I did not know that.

That is something that we never mentioned that on the Leon Silvers episode. Yeah, I think it was Edmund and Ricky Silvers. I believe, I believe it was them. Yeah, so wow, could you tell me the very first album that you purchased with your own money, not given to you?

But yeah, yeah, Well I don't remember the Joy with my own money, but I remember my grandmother gifting me a forty five of Michael Jackson.

Well was it the Jackson five? It was damn what was that song.

Down to the Ground Shake your body down to the ground? That was probably.

Yeah.

That was my first like memory of having a record that was my own, you know what I'm saying.

So I didn't buy it, but I owned it.

It was my record, Like that was the beginning of my record collection and it was just a forty five.

Yeah.

What did your parents do for a living?

My mom, both of them are active, my mom and my mom is the owner of the largest black newspaper in Wisconsin. It's called the Milwaukee Community Journal. So that's my mom. My dad is an entrepreneur in any way. So he started gas stations, he started catering businesses, the first black owned fast food restaurant in Milwaukee. He started a nightclub called the Fox Trap, which turned into an arcade, and so you know, he was just a serial entrepreneur.

So that's what my mom and dad both did.

Yeah, well, I want to know how easy is it or how easy was it for black entrepreneurs to start a business, because you know, for most of us, you start a business first of all by getting.

A bank loan.

And usually for a lot of people that I hear talking about, you know, post civil rights experience for black people, you know, a lot of the Jim Crowing attitudes three nineteen sixty eight were still happening, you know, long after, like way into the seventies, way into the eighties. Even one of the funniest stories I ever heard was George Johnson, who you know, started the Johnson Hare Empire in Chicago, you know, they single handedly funded soul trade, you know,

Wow.

And they did it.

Wow Wow again like that, you know, like we don't talk about probably the main gripe of the systematic racism in the United States is the rampant denial of bank loans to start businesses exactly.

And so how is your dad.

Able to start all these businesses? Because you know, I've yeah, this is a rare situation for me to hear someone that has like a dream and it goes in fruition and manifested itself.

Yeah, I'm glad you asked that they pulled money together from other black families and people, and so that was their startup money.

And then my mother, she was a school teacher.

And so after the riots of doctor Martin Luther King Junior being murdered, there was riots in Milwaukee, or of course across the nation, but in Milwaukee as well, and they were they looted and destroyed a lot of the black businesses. Well, while those black businesses were striving to get back on their feet and got back on their feet, they needed somebody to advertise the fact that they were open again and ready for business. And the major newspapers

That started to happen.

Other black people that had a little bit of money scraped it together and helped them to start what's now called the Milwaukee Community Journal.

My dad used that money to.

Start his first business, which was a small gas station, and when that did pretty well, he used that money. So you get where I'm going with this to start his business, and he was the most in nineteen eighty he was one of the most successful black business people, well business people, not black people, business people in Milwaukee. But when he got to that level, the city literally systemically destroyed him tax wise, and they came after him. They targeted him. He had a huge target on his back,

Wow, I would think owning a newspaper would be seen more as a threat than starting an independent business. On your mom's sided, things like how was she able to run that community?

The segregated mind state.

We weren't literally segregated, but the segregation mind state really played a big role in her being able to sustain because the major newspapers refused to give coverage to a lot of the black stories, black death, black achievements, black joy. As you said earlier, her paper was that sole resource for quite a while and then later And that's the same by the way, with my father's drive through restaurant, he had called Robbie's and McDonald's.

Name all of his businesses. Again I know it, And so.

At that time period, McDonald's was afraid to have drive throughs in the black community. They didn't want to do it. They had some locations, but they refused to open a drive through. Well, my father use that their refusal as an opening to start a business that did have a drive through. Of course, just like any other people, black people needed convenience on their way to work. They wanted to grab something to eat, go to work, so on and so forth, and his business took off.

So it was basically.

Their own ignorance and their own refusal to serve black people that.

Allowed my mom and dad both to have a career.

Is your entire family based in Milwaukee or just like your mom and dad Like.

No, So, my my father's family is from Tennessee, and then my mother's family is from East Saint Louis. So they both came to Milwaukee. For exactly, are you from East St.

Louis?

My mama is from Saint Louis.

From everywhere, I learned something new every episode. I did not know you had Saint Louis roots.

Oh yeah, yeah, all that stuff. I'm sorry ahead, So no.

It's all good.

So then they came to Milwaukee and I met each other during college years, and you know, so there was some family there. But you know, back in these days, there was this huge diversion from the from the South to the Midwest to the West because of lack of job opportunities and so factories were opening in the Midwest and that's why, you know, Milwaukee was one of the places that was on our radar back then as black people.

Yeah, ill, all right, I got this is a two party one. What year did you leave Milwaukee?

Nineteen eighty seven, the year I graduated high school? So I left literally a week after I graduated.

I came to Atlanta.

All right, Now, Part two that question is and this is weird that you leave Milwaukee for Atlanta, in which the unfortunate commonality thread of the two cities is that both cities are well known for U two horrific crimes. Oh okay, go ahead, No, two horrific crimes against groups of black people, of course, the Atlanta child murderers and Jeffrey do Jeffrey.

Forgetting Milwaukee right Milwaukee?

And I, you know, I didn't know until the Netflix series that he started back in nineteen seventy eight, Like I thought this was happening like.

Around like ninety eighty nine, ninety ninety one, But I didn't realize that his process was way slower.

But did I never had a chance to interview anyone from Milwaukee that you know or know many black people from Milwaukee, So I'm asking you to represent your entire city here. But did you, like, did you have any family that was affected by what was happening with with Dahmer at the time, or like was that even in the news, like were they reporting like missing black people or or is this just like another murdered this week?

No? No, it was definitely a huge story in Milwaukee.

And my dad lived in the same complex, not in the same like area that Dahmer lived as Dahmer.

So when my mother and father.

Divorced, his apartment was there, and so it was a very big issue when we found out about it, when it became big news and nationwide news. As a family, we were affected in the sense of knowing dad was there.

You know, my father was there. So wow, Yeah, it was a very very big deal.

It wasn't just one of those sort of like things like, oh, something's happening over there.

No, it was definitely. And by the way, Milwaukee is very black. So like Milwaukee in the.

City, yeah, we just think of Laverne and Shirrely in Happy Days.

Exactly, exactly.

No, the city itself, I believe, I want to say, it's sixty or so percent black. So if you go to Milwaukee, the city itself, because you know, like like Georgia, I know, people come down to Georgia. Georgia is one thing, but Atlanta is another thing, right, and so it's the same difference with Milwaukee, and it's a very black, black, black city.

Yeah, so Milwaukee, I'm going to talk about Atlanta.

Milwaukee was a very like the difference the disparities between black and white people is is and.

Was so crystal clear Milwaukee.

Most Milwaukee Black populations were either poor or lower middle class somewhere in there. And white people, on the other hand, had, you know, a much better shot at being able to

I mean that type of way.

Wait, yeah, so that was in Atlanta.

That was in Atlanta nineteen eighty seven.

I'll be very honest with you.

I had a few friends and family members in Atlanta at the time, and really before the Renaissance, which I kind of I mean between you and like Bobby Brown, really, Bobby Brown was the first person I heard, like, wait, the success yet with this album, you're moving to Atlanta, Georgia instead of like Baldwin Hills and all that stuff.

I just always wanted to.

Know, like, like I thought, y'all created what we were know as the bojo lifestyle because I just thought, like, they're the pioneers of that.

But you're saying that you.

Saw the def alternative bojo scene in Atlanta.

Yeah.

Yeah, So the West end of Atlanta, right, it's an area where there's a lot, well, especially before it got regentrified more recently, it was a very cultural landmark in Atlanta where you had you know, African priests and African dance companies and teaching about the importance of drumming and the importance of language through music and mathematics through music. Like these types of things were being taught and spoken of in the West into particular, which is where arrested

He used to cut hair.

I call him Headliner because he was incredible at barbering, like the man. And then of course you had all of these HBCUs there, right, So you have Spelman, Morehouse, Clark Atlanta University, so on, and so Morris Brown. So all of that area was bubbling with culture and with

Do you hear you describe it?

I would assume that your parents weren't were they musically inclined at all?

Or did you have siblings?

So yeah, I did. I had a brother brother, Yeah, my brother Terry.

And then my mom was big on adoption and on fostering, So throughout my childhood my mom would foster numerous kids and then one of them that she actually adopted was from Acra Ghana. His name was Bright Bulleting, so he lived with me as a child. And yeah, so I did have siblings. No, my parents weren't particularly into music.

Why did you leave Milwaukee in the first place.

The opportunity was very rare Milwaukee, Like, no one had made it out of Milwaukee except for Aljio before us.

He's from Milwake.

Milwaukee. Yeah, he's from Milwaukee.

And so it was much later later yeah wait who yeah, so that's.

Yeah on Amazon. I you should check it out. Yeah yeah yeah.

So you know, so like at that time, nobody was making it from Milwaukee. Eric Banaa's from Milwaukee. That was later, you know what I'm saying. So there was a lot of things that was later, but at that time there was nobody making it. There was no opportunities. I used to tour Detroit to try to spend time with Jan Atkins. I'm sure you're familiar with Wan Atkins. Oh yeah, yeah, so like wine act music got electronic music god.

So like wait, he was nice to you.

He was very nice to me.

In fact, he liked my group at the time, which was before arrested development called attack, and so that was like the closest opportunities we had was like Detroit, you know what I mean. And obviously in hip hop even Detroit wasn't on yet, you know what I mean.

Chicago wasn't on.

Yet, So Atlanta wasn't either though really no it wasn't.

But Atlanta had much more opportunity than Milwaukee. So that's why I chose Atlanta. Plus I wanted to be in the South, like I spent all my summers with my grandmother in Tennessee, and I fell in love with the South.

I fell in love with the whole idea of the.

South, especially the nature aspect, not obviously, you know, oppression of slavery, you know, not that, but like the realities of land ownership and self determination, of growing your own food, exchanging food from one household to another. So if you didn't have money, which my grandmother didn't, she still had everything because the next door neighbor had college, and the other neighbor had you.

Know, sugar, and the other neighborhod yams and meat.

And so it was this self determined community or communal of the South that I fell in love with you know.

I feel like that's progressive thinking because I would just think in the late eighties, like everyone I knew was still trying to migrate to the north, especially where hip hop was going. I meanmained to pre himself like moved to New York City. And you know, it wasn't until like you know, the kind of gentrification and outsource or not even outsourcing, but just the overpricing of city living is now made a reverse where now people are, yeah,

And yeah, so I came to Atlanta to go to school because I sucked a school in Milwaukee.

I graduated with a zero point nine average, which is a big time.

Fight exactly, that's under f you know what I'm saying, that's a g And so so I came to Atlanta because the Art Institute of Atlanta was the only school that I had applied to that would.

Allow me to come.

And I even had to write a letter of acceptance there to tell them that I was going to change my tune, so and so forth. So the first week I got there, I put up a flyer because I wanted to start a crew, and I was a DJ, but I was.

Rapping more and more and more.

So I put up a flyer for a DJ, and I hung it up at the lunch counter area, you know where people were, you know, hanging out, and his brother named Tim Barnwell later Headliner, was looking at the flyer and so I said, Yo, you know, my name is Speech blah blah blah, and we just connected from

And so on and so forth.

You said you went your reduce yourself to the tempt headliner as speech. How did you what Keith tell us the origins of you choosing that name?

Yeah, so I in Milwaukee when I DJ, I was named DJ Peach p E E C H.

And it's because of the size of my head and the light skinned complexion and you know, saying like that kind of vibe being extra nice.

And was taken already.

Exactly, and LL cool J was taken already.

Yeah.

By the way, we're both scorpios, me and LL but both of us are named Todd.

Both of us are named Todd. Well.

So, yeah, so I I put an in front of Peach when I started rhyming, and to me, I wanted to rebrand myself. I knew I was going to the Peach state and I didn't want to be known as m C Peach.

I thought that was why. And so I was like, okay, let me put an S in front of it. Now it makes sense. I'm rhyming.

Now I'm doing the you know, I'm letting the DJ sort of go to the background and my DJ and I should say, go to the background of my movement and.

Let me take speech. So I just put ans in front of peach.

Hip hop wise before you go to Atlanta, who were you sort of I guess more attracted to you in terms of like where hip hop was at the time. I mean, there was kind of a West Coast or whatever, but like what was hip hop in Milwaukee at the time.

Well, Milwaukee was interesting because we liked all of it. So we liked world class rerecing crew from the West Coast, We liked Egyptian lover from the West Coast, but we loved house music from neighboring Chicago, you know, saying, so we were heavy on house music, but we loved DC and the go go scene. We loved hip hop obviously from the whole East Coast New York. So we liked all of it. And as a DJ, I played all of that, you know what I mean. So I liked

I thought was ill. I liked all of it, you know what I mean. It was all dope to me.

So in going to Atlanta for you, like, how how do you take it from a social connection to Okay, let's let's see we have something here as a musician.

First of all, did you break your promise to the art school? Did you finish? You did?

I finished?

Okay?

Yeah, I finished.

I finished with a three point three, mind you, which I totally repented.

You know what I'm saying. I came back.

I came back doing something that you liked.

So yeah, well it's funny I was doing something I liked.

But I'll be honest, it really was my black consciousness that made me do well at school because I wanted to be excellent as a black man, Like that was my That was really my intention.

Like I felt like I wasn't.

Being excellent prior, and I wanted to to really come with it, Like I wanted to come with it. So I studied harder. I was studying the Black Panthers. I was studying groups that was about our development, and they motivated.

Me to do better, Like okay, I need to do better, you know what I'm saying. So I did I see that?

Well? Wait, you had a group before less of development?

Yeah, I did called Attack.

Yeah, okay, good, So what was who was in at tech and like what what were you?

Guys were less like like stylistically, what were you like?

I think we were a mix between UTFO and run DMC if I had to say.

And you know, you know I do.

In fact, we got records that we released back then and they're they're like classic joints that you know, collectors got and because we only pressed to three hundred copies, so it's nothing huge, but in Milwaukee that was huge because we was the first rap group to put out records and to do our things.

So a lot of the things that we had in Milwaukee loved it.

But as I was saying, we couldn't break past Milwaukee, so even working with wyan Ackett, so it just never happened for us. But in the group was myself, a brother named t A Whiz rest in Peace, and Special K who was now who is now named DJ Kimmitt who's a beast as a DJ DJ KIMMITTT and myself and Ta Whiz was the group Attack.

Wow, I never knew that that's my guy, man.

Yeah. TJ.

Kimmitt's the dude. Yeah, he crushes it. To this day, and yeah, he was. He was our DJ, and I was a DJ slash rapper and Ta was a rapper.

Ta was murdered. Unfortunately. In the early nineties.

Were you guys opening for established acts or like what were shows like in Yeah.

So, like with Attack, one of the sort of ways that we tried to get recordize was throwing parties ourselves.

So my father, being an.

Entrepreneur, would would spend the money and hire DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, who at that time only had a single parents don't understand and one or Girls of the World and nothing but trouble I think it was. And back then they didn't have covers on singles a lot of times, so I didn't know what they looked like. We hired them, and I say it in quotes because it wasn't them.

I learned that later.

We hired them for like three thousand dollars or what have you, and they came and performed their one song and a few other things. It wasn't even it wasn't Jazzy Jeff, and it wasn't Fresh Prince.

Fresh Prince.

The guy I saw that night was like three four hundred pounds it didn't look anything like the first prints that we now know, and so that was our opportunity to open up for people.

So we were.

Striving to use this entrepreneurial attitude to find ways to expose ourselves.

Was that crazy, that's crazy?

Yeah, that's crazy.

For a second, I was thinking, Okay, Cash Money Marvelous were there, because all right, I'm from Philadelphia and both groups were sort of like kind of the same ILK skill, tablest huguristic humor mc oh, that's crazy. That's not the first time I heard stories of, you know, grifting from the hip hop side. I think there's one dude that made a killing as Redhead Kingpin.

I don't know if you remember been in the FBI, but.

Yeah, for like a good year and a half, this guy was making a killing off of, you know, scamming people doing nightclub gigs or whatever as Redhead.

When'd you realize the jig was up?

For like as far as those catfish open I mean.

Ax or yes, yeah, there there were more when no, I wasn't any more of that particular thing. But when DJ Jazzy Jeff at Fresh Prince when I first saw them, and I forget what single it was, they the label allowed them to have a you know, a picture on a cup and I was like, damn, I think there's like a year later or so, and I'm like, wow, we got ripped off. They and the show was whack.

So like, did you ever tell them that story?

Actually I haven't told him that story.

Wow, I can't wait to call Jeff about that one. Yeah, exactly, that's crazy. It's crazy. I think in Seattle.

Well, I don't want to say, like, hey, we pulled the same skin, but there's a festival called Bumper Shoot in Seattle, and the stars just weren't in line for me and Tariq the b at that show. But you know, we were heavy believers in the show must go on, like we couldn't afford to give up one show, right, and so like everyone but me and Tariq were And.

It was early enough for people to not know.

Who the roots were, right, but until the last minute, one guy was like, wait a minute, that drummer is skinny. No, And then like it went from like one person to five people and then was like, damn near a riot, but they dice raw was black thought, and you know, they just was in the mail like we we just ran out of town. So yeah, yeah, we can't fished the city once.

Sorry, Seattle. I apologized for that.

Why did you choose the name Arrested Development when you started the group? Like, was Arrested Development the next step after.

My group attack?

Yeah, after you imploded or yeah?

So basically we you know, I left Milwaukee because I wanted to go to school and I wanted to get to another atmosphere, another vibe. We started off as a group called Secret Society in Atlanta. Then he had Disciples of a Lyrical Rebellion as our name. Then it was Arrested Development, and that's when we got our deal, right, So all of those names was just conceptual if you remember that in hip hop at the time, there was

You got the S one ws, you you got.

Slave exactly, terminator acts, you know, and even in other music styles, like even with Prince from the eighties on out, like he had Prince of the Revolution and the keyboards was a doctor, you know what I'm saying. And it was like in the time, you know, had had that character that they that they play, you know, the whole mirror thing with Jerome. So it's like, so the concept

And stuff like this.

It just had the certain ring to it for me. Arrested Development just felt right for what we was doing and the vibe.

We were on and in that moment, what was your concept for Arrested Development when you first started?

It was pretty much the same as what it is now.

So like, you know, our whole thing was almost like a play on soul to soul where you had jazz who jazzy b who's like the DJ, but then he would have guests of different types singing on it, you know, saying exactly right, so like.

Exactly right, exactly right.

So that that was sort of the energy with us, but it was more of headline is the DJ. I'm the producer MC, and I would invite every show, I would invite African drummers on I would invite African dance troops to come and rock with us. So painters, live painters to come and rock with us on stage. So that was the energy of Arrested Development then. And you know, to some extent or another.

Now, Funk Jazz got it from you.

I would say, yes, yeah, yeah, Funk Jazz my man Jason Orr definitely was inspired.

By you know what we were doing.

Yeah, okay, I'll be very remissed if I didn't ask this question now. I mean, I'm a pop culture junkie and you know, one of my favorite comedies of all time. Also, HAPs us to share the name of your band. Now, I knew there was a situation with Vernon Reed and the Wayans family in terms of Living Color and in Living Color. But actually, in I believe in Vernon situation,

But yeah, I always wanted to know.

When you own a name like Arrested Developments, that you own the name of arrest Development.

We do.

Yeah, even if you're in and I know you guys are still active, But do you have to be wholly active in order to maintain the name? And does that allow you? Like, how does that happen when another entity comes along with your name? Like I knew there was a situation where Prince actually owned the term the Family. Yeah, yeah, And so when the Family the nothing that Nothing compares to you Want and Done group that he produced in eighty five, Yeah, when they imploded, he still retained the

Cereal or yeah, a sport or just something, you own it. So how does that happen? Like are you talking to Ron Howard or like.

Yeah, definitely yeah.

So what we you know how trademarks work is that if it is if the consumer is going to be confused about your product called arrested development and our product arrested development.

Then there's a trademark issue.

So if there was a restaurant called arrested Development, probably no problem. If there was, you know, a corn stead called arrest of Development, probably no problem.

But TV shows tend to or can.

If they're successful, have soundtracks that they put out on CD or a record or whatever version is out at the time.

Of music mediums as they make movies.

In those movies, you know, there could be confusion as to when they put out a soundtrack and when we do it. And so we we had trademarked the name back in ninety two or something.

It wasn't like before we came out.

We trademarked it after we came out because this was our first album. We're learning like, oh, hell, you know, we need to trademark the name. So so we did have to take Ron Howard and Fox to court because they had stolen the name, and you mentioned a few other examples.

They were still in the name.

Definitely, No, they knew, they knew, they knew, they knew, but they assumed that we were washed up, we had no money, and that we couldn't fight, and so what was the wrong assumption. Yeah, they they felt like, we'll take it and just basically, you know, just steamroll them. And they tried to do that because you know, these big corporations, they have a lot of money, They have long money, so they could go into court for they.

Could go a long time.

And so I had to go into court to fight, and I had to tell the story of how we started, which some of which I shared here in front of the court to show the blood, sweat and tears of what this group meant to me. So it wasn't just a trademark to me, it was it was a thing, you know what I mean. It was a baby in a sense. And so when the people that was in court then heard that story, Fox and Ron Howard just said, okay, we need to settle, and so we settled out of court.

Always always wanted to do that.

Yeah, that was a night, and you were satisfied. I'm trying not to be in your pocket. You were heavily satisfied.

Well, you know, we were satisfied to an extent because they offered it. You know, they could put our music on the show. You know, there was all types of things we were negotiating, but we didn't know if the show was going to go well or not. So we just decided to go, you know, with an X amount and just just move on and then if it went to streaming, we get another X amount.

So things like that, you know, saying we went into that kind of deal.

Wait, since we already did h a mal jam episode, I correct me if I'm wrong. When Malcolm Jamal Warner left the Cosby Show, I.

Believe that he did. All right, you're already agreeing with me. I knew when he did his episode.

I didn't know the name of the show, and I didn't know if I imagined that THEO became a teacher of a bunch of elementary school kids. But I definitely remember. I believe that Tennessee Yep was the theme.

Song to.

You know, Malcolm Joamalon Warner's. But I don't know if he was THEO or if he just played a teacher. But I believe that, Yeah, I believe he was THEO.

He wasn't He wasn't THEO. And it was his first spin off spin off. It was just his first debut as the star of his own show, and they they did use Tennessee as his theme song.

I didn't know if I imagine that or not.

Yeah, we went to the taping of that.

Yeah, they only did like nine I think.

Nine episodes, but exactly it didn't last.

I forgive the name of the show or you know, it's always exactly black siico yep, facts, here we go again, starring Malcolm jamal One.

Right exactly. Yeah.

So in terms of musicianship or at least you as a producer, you know, is anyone teaching you production by this point?

Yea?

And what were you using? What were you making tracks on the that time?

Yeah, yeah, nobody taught me. Unfortunately, I wish I probably would have had that evivent though. I was on a HR sixteen eleases drum Machine and uh in Sonic ASR ten or before that, and then Sonic EPs sixteen, So that was like my primary ways of like the whole first album for instance, and second album was on those two instruments pretty much unless we hire somebody to come in play horns, like on the song you to play horns or so on and so forth.

You know.

Yeah, pretty much my production was from that. You know those two things.

So how do the other members that we know of the group speaking of like Deonne Faris and.

We know headline and story?

But well, first of all you said it was sort of a community of people, but the rest of the development that we know, how did you finally round up the final numbers in terms of word group and let's go for a record deal?

And how do you can able to sign all these people like exactly?

So that actually you hit it on the nail because we actually already had all of these members. But when when we got signed to the deal, you can't tour with twenty members, you know what I'm saying, You can't. It's not financially feasible right for a new group to go on a tour. So I had to try to make the best decision as possible of who to bring out on the road and make this a sort of an official thing. In my mind at the time, it wasn't necessarily the official group members.

It was just the people we could take on the road. It made sense. We all had.

Different roles that we could play, and this was sort of stage one, but it sort of got solidified into that because that album was so big for us that you know, those members was those members.

Now we'll say Dion wasn't ever in the group as a member. She was just a guest vocalist.

But how me in particular, and how we as a group rolled, is we we blurred the lines between who was in the group and who wasn't in the sense of all of our you know, appearances, all of our press tours. If she was down with us, then she was down like, come on with us, you know what I'm saying, Just come rock with us, even though she wasn't actually in the group. And that's how it sort of got confused that she was actually in the group.

Got okay, yeah, wait, since who was the dancer? I forget her name?

Yeah es she yes, okay, So how did you meet them or incorporate them into the group?

Yeah, yeah, so is she was? Basically she auditioned.

She was thirteen years old, and we auditioned her sister who was older than her, probably about five years older than her. And her sister was going on tour for the first time in her life with James Brown, I want to say, and so she couldn't do it, and so she suggested her sister, her younger sister Ishi, which her real name is Tamika, and so she suggested Tamika. She came to audition for US. I actually didn't feel

So I didn't totally feel her.

Headliner, on the other hand, loved her style and her vibe and felt like she could change it to the more the afrocentric vibe.

And he was right. I mean, she she.

Totally changed on her own, like once she got in the group, she changed her whole look. She cut off her hair, she had a bald head, She was like dope as ever, and she just had this total energy that I.

Totally missed, you know, but he saw that, Yeah she did. She did, you know.

I mean, I guess how most groups, do you know, people change their name when they start to sort of go into the entertainment realm as opposed to just using like Todd Thomas.

You know, I'm saying like I used speech. Her name was just Tamika Gather.

That that was her name.

You know what I'm saying.

So she looked up black and and what's her name, step of emotional Ishi.

So anyway, it's something like black life.

I think this black life, And she looked that up and came up with the name monsho Ishi.

See in my mind, I thought, like, all right, speeches the ringleader. So he's like paving titles giving these titles to.

No, No, not at all, not at all.

The only name that I gave, and it was more of just a you know, a term of endearment, was Headliner because he was, you know, he was so dope as a barber that you know, he was known for real, like in the West End. He was that guy that the line was outside of the store waiting for him to cut hair. So I gave him the name headliner, which made sense to me in a sense of you know, somebody you know on the marquee being a headliner and stuff like that.

In y'all's episode of Unsung, you may mention of like, I think your original you and Headliner's original arrangement was ninety ten. It was a space was nine year I guess teen him. That was your rationale in that in terms of like division of labor, and you know what made that a fair deal to you?

For me, it was a matter of, you know, I'm producing the music. I'm the main writer of the lyrics, so you know, just go back and listen to the record. And even on like Raining Revolution, right, one of the songs on the debut, I would like when the song comes on, I'm saying on the mic, Yo, this is headliner from Arrested Development, and I come here tonight to give thanks to the Rain, and I'm talking, talking, talking,

What do you call it?

Reference reference?

It's a reference exactly right for him to come back and do it. That's my point, is that. Yeah, And so like when those things happened, these songs were concepts that I came up with on my own.

So that's why.

And so managers generally speaking got like ten to fifteen maybe twenty percent max in my mind at that time. And I'm not saying I was a business dude, because I wasn't. I was twenty one years old, you know what I'm saying. So you're along the way, right, I'm learning very much along the way. So in my mind, I was like, even though you didn't write these joints, I still want to give you And that was my viewpoint.

So you thought you were and I thought, but you were giving him something for work that actually hadn't been facts.

I mean, that's that's that was my view at the time, you know what I'm saying. So sore.

So in terms of your deal, y'all's deal with Chrysalist was that who was actually signed, like on paper like to that deal?

Yeah, just me and Headliner were signed to that deal.

And I tell you why that happened because, as I said earlier, you know, we had twenty members, so we're there's a lot of people. And so when we got the deal, which was very unexpected, but of course we were hoping for a deal, but we got turned down by all the other labels. So when this deal finally came through, which was initially a single deal actually that led to an album deal, I didn't exactly know at that.

Time who was gonna be out in the road. Who is this group? You know what I'm saying. Because we got twenty people, who is the group? Like? So it was tough.

So I knew me and Headliner that part I knew, So when it was time to sign the deal, I went ahead and did it that way, and you know, obviously then things blew up. But that's that's tough because when you sign stuff, you don't know how it's gonna go at the time, Like you don't know the record's gonna go, you know, crazy and all of that.

So were the members who weren't in the nucleus of arrested development? Did they wind up being you? You had an offspring group called Gumbo?

Correct? Yeah, Oh I was yeah.

I was like, I know, yeahbum and shit, I was about to say, I thought you had something to do with Gumbo.

The rest of them members is go to Gumbo.

No, So Gumbo was a whole new like to me, they were they were my like you know, family tree starting to develop a family tree, you know what I'm saying, like sort of a native tongues if you will, you know where you know, they were gonna be my Fuji's in a sense, but the Fujis weren't out yet.

Okay, how long did it take to source a record deal?

Like?

How long was the process of making a demo?

To?

Three years, five months and two days.

Oh, so that's where the title comes from.

Literally literally wow, And what songs are y'all shopping? Like?

What was on y'all's demo at the time?

You know, it changed over the over those years, you know, saying so when we first started shopping, it was a different version of Fisher For religion, it might have had mister Wendell, I forget, definitely not Tennessee, because in fact, the last, the last song.

Yeah, it's always that way exactly.

Tennessee was the.

Last joint man and and it was only because I lost my grandmother, who I told you I spent all my summers with, and in that same week I lost my brother Terry, and so the last place I saw both of them was at her funeral in Tennessee.

So Tennessee was the last.

Joint that I wrote, and it ended up being our first single, our first hit, two.

Man the Prince sample in Tennessee. Yeah, how did y'all? How did y'all pull that?

All?

Because he wouldn't let nobody.

No, no, no, actually he was, but I know he was because like Nicest Smooth used I want to be a lover, and Hammer used prey yep, oh no, they use.

They used then this guy is the limited.

They also use what you call it.

They usedtar fishing starfishing coffee too. I forget.

You know, Prince was he was against sampling at that time. You know, he didn't think it was music, you know what I'm saying, and he was sort of offended. He was one of those people at the time that thought it was stealing basically. But I will say, you know, when we were released to stuff, the sampling world wasn't really solidified, like the whole we were saying rumors like if you were using less than three seconds, you're you're good. If you're not using a melody, you're good. If you're

To me, it wasn't a thing, you know.

What I mean.

That was how I was thinking at the.

Time, you know, as much as a prince head that I am. I will actually say, it might have taken me like four to five months for me to even realize that was a prince sample.

Right, exactly exactly. That's the other thing.

Alphabet Street just one word take on the back seat. I gotta ask, I gotta ask, how much did they get you all for?

So Prince did something?

Really?

Go ahead? Go ahead, bro?

No, no, typical you know, typically most groups will pay twenty five to fifty thousand and four something.

But for one word. I get the feeling you're about to tell me it's it's expensive.

Good it was, And what he did and this is pretty this is pretty shrewd on Prince's behalf.

What he did is he waited for it to hit to the top of the charts.

And so we had already won on the rap charts, we hit number one on the R and B charts, we got to number six, I believe on the pop charts, right, And the moment it went down to number seven, we got a call. And I'm not joking, it was literally the moment it went down, yeah, and he was like, yo, I.

Want one hundred grand for that word.

And at the time I thought that was crazy though. I thought that was crazy, But I get him and I was young. That's him being nice, bro. And I didn't realize.

That, Yeah he cut break, He cut me a.

Break, He cut me a break.

I didn't realize that he could have put some sting shit and just could ye.

Yo, I was half the record, you know what I'm saying.

All the publishing and all that stuff. That's all publishing yep.

In those three years and stuff, did you guys have management and whatnot? And they were helping with things? Because I know, so how did the whole Michael Mauldine.

Yeah, so our man, Yeah, Jermaine's dad was our manager.

Wow, Okay, yeah, I didn't know that.

And so you know, back then we had released a record in Atlanta and pressed about two hundred copies and we were, you know, passing it around the industry people. One of those people was Ian Burke, who's a very big music dude here in Atlanta, and then he passed it to Michael Malden. Michael Maldon at that time wasn't really huge. He had he was, I want to say he was managing or to be the tour manager still times Leather, which was Jermaine Dupriez's first major label signing.

He was sort of just like a tour.

Manager for Brick, you know, the R and B band, and he was just wanting to break off into the industry. He got the Stiltimes Leather hook up with his son, Jermaine. I knew Jermaine really well too, so you know, it was just a matter of Okay, well he's bigger than anybody else that we knew.

Let's go with Michael Malden.

He was dope and he got us the deal between him and his partner Philip Callaway.

Are you having any social interaction whatsoever with anyone in the lineage of Atlanta hip hop by the time you get down there, like are you do you know members of the Dungeon family?

Do you know Drean Big Boy or the good moun guys?

Like are you running to anyone that six degrees to hip hop in Atlanta?

By that point, Yes, and no, no, none of the Dungeon family because I didn't know them, like they weren't a thing when we were first coming out. So when we were first coming out, it was other acts, you know, mcshi D and people like that that was really making moves in Atlanta on the local scene. And it was more like, well, as you well know, it's like that

Did you think that you had to leave Atlanta in order to make it, like we got to move to New York in order to get it a deal or la or.

No, we didn't feel that.

In fact, I didn't go to New York until right before we got our deal.

That was my first time ever being in New York period.

So I felt like Atlanta had a good shot, Like we had a good shot.

You know.

It took us some years obviously to make some things happen, but I felt like we had a shot and there was a scene there that was very musical, very different, you know than what was going on in New York at the time.

Were there any other labels that were considering you guys before, you know.

I mean, we tried all the labels, but at that time we were just getting turned down left and right, left and right, left and right. And this is prior to like, you know, obviously Black Eyed Peas.

Or PM don or any of those things.

Well PM down actually did put out a record, it just wasn't it wasn't huge just yet.

But yeah, so it was it was tough for them to imagine, you know what I'm.

Saying, you know, because the thing is is that, at least now that I look in sort of an aerial view of it, for me, the beginning of what they call the alternative movement of hip hop starts with the Jungle Brothers, and well, you guys are technically the penultimate. I will say that it ended in my eyes with diggable planets. Really before before the I guess you could say, the eclipse of what we call the chronic came right and yeah, yeah, part of my dis not at the time.

Black person, you know.

And so when I saw y'all win the Past Job Awards and the Past Job Awards, basically Chris Degau gathers like three hundred journalists across the United States and he asked them for their top ten singles and records of the year, and it varies so to get like, the last time I seen a hip hop album win that award was a nation of millions. Before that, a hip hop album hadn't won. So when you guys won that,

Was it just like, oh, that's cool.

Oh it's cool.

I didn't even know anything about it. I fact, I didn't know anything about it. You just said it down, I'm serious about it.

Nothing about it.

You mean, I'm telling you, I'm telling you wait time out.

You mean, I'm telling you right now that, like right now, you wont like three Mischelin stars for your restaurant and you had no clue, no clue that you got like fives in the source and you had no no clue.

I remember, I remember the past job, but like I ain't carried the white people thought like, what was the source saying?

But no, no, no, no, it wasn't that.

I know, I know that that's that's a very easy deflection, Fonte. But what I'm saying was Chris de Gal made it in a very even seat at the table. So this is a mixture of black critics white critics. So that ship meant a lot more to me than the A and job and instead of jazz and pop they spell it passing job.

Word up, you know.

And I wasn't saying that it wasn't you know that it wasn't important.

I just meant from the standpoint for us, for me as a hip hop fan, right, we weren't really checking for what their opinion was on hip hop, you know what I mean, Like it was just you know, that was kind of what it was.

I was.

I'm sorry.

To me, that was like some of me like, I don't know, like, yeah, often hard to achieve, and you guys did it. But the fact that you didn't even know about it no even more crazier than me.

Well you know, also, I hated the term alternative hip hop because I didn't. For me personally, I.

Didn't get it.

It didn't feel like it was an alternative or an alternative to the other hip hop. Like I'm listening to like Yo bum Rush the Show album and they're sophisticated, you know, which is a rock song, and there's all these live drum loops and stuff like this on Yo bum Rush the Show record coming from Death Jam, which was obviously a very legitimized labeling hip hop, and it

I didn't get what made it so alternative or why it started with.

Us, you know what, something though, If I'm really, really truly honest I was twenty one when the album came out, and I didn't buy the album until mister Wendell started until after I'm plugged.

Okay, then I brought the record. God I spun.

I'm a DJ, so I had when I buy singles and forty five's is for the purpose of like playing in ne club. So here's the thing though, when I hear Tennessee and essentially people every day, I remember having a little hip hop debate arguments about is the rest of development a hip hop group or an R.

And B group?

Fucked up?

He rapping I was twenty one dog but even then because he was singing, because he was delivering so melodically, I.

Just in my mind rap was glo wan too throw the MIC's one Wan two want Too.

And I didn't see that.

So in my mind, I was like, yo, this is one of the most innovative R and B groups ever. No, hey, another disclosure, One of my first debates with Missy Elliott was over the same thing, because I made the mistake of letting my opinion on on Twitter that I didn't consent to Missy Elliott and MC. More than I considered her a singer, I consider her a singer that had skills as an MC.

Well she lived my dms up.

Boy Wow the lyrics to the second verse or I guess the first verse of people every day? How much resistance were you on a daily basis meeting from the hip hop guard that saw you guys as weirdos.

Ironically, we weren't getting, like from a in my own body experience.

We weren't getting a lot of.

People doubting the hip hop origin of who we were being in my own body.

We were getting a lot of.

Pushback from gangs to hip hop at the time. I mentioned ice Cube on people every day and Earlie to read.

From our group says who after I say his name?

So there's like a Now I'm meant for it to be a slight in a sense, right, because I'm trying to compare how I'm going to handle this situation compared to how Ice Cue portrayed himself.

Oh exactly right.

Wait a minute, now, I'm just hearing now I'm one second years old.

I didn't realize that who Yep, I didn't realize it was a question.

I just thought, Hey, all.

We all knew who Ice Cue was. Don't get me wrong, she was, but at the time. He he did, and so did therefore Snoop And so did you know others who were on the West Coast that were more so repping gangs to hip hop in a more direct way, right, So there was that sort of and not to mention every show that I did, and I'm talking about for twenty thousand people or arrested development did, I'm saying, I would say that we're not calling black women bitches and holes.

We don't do that. Our peers do that. We don't do that.

So I'm making a very clear statement about who we are, what we're doing, and why it's different than what this dude's doing. So those types of things came off as basically, you know what I'm saying, like, Okay, you better than Yeah.

What happens the first time that you meet them?

Cube Cube did that signature growl look that he does? You know how he just it's it's a cover of every magazine you've ever seen. Cbe Grace, the cover of He gave me that cube scal one oh one. He gave me that scowl, right, and then Snoop gave me this sort of like cold thing at the Grammys, And it was that kind of energy iced tea. At the time, me and him, prior to us really blowing up, we're friends. But after we started to blow up, he distanced himself

Is this is scary. Also said, so this is this.

Is like competition now, like, okay, their stance is very juxtaposed to what we're doing.

And they're winning. Like this is not an underground sensation.

This is something that's actually taking awards from them, like the chronic.

It's become because because of the yeah, I mean, you guys owned, you guys own ninety two.

Did it ever become a burden?

Uh?

Winning that much and selling that much?

Because then again, it's also like, and I do remember like Cypress Hill went through situation where you know, the source decided to just start going out on them for their second album because they thought, like, oh, y'all ain't making hip hop for the heads. No, more like we see you know, white people dancing and slam dancing in your videos and you're doing like Wlapalooza and all this other stuff. Yeah, so were you feeling as though that you were in danger of hindering the.

Group without a question?

Like, for me as a leader of the group, I'm worried about that every day, Like every day, I'm worried about this, this transference of black heads and fans loving our music and it starting to transform into mainly white audiences now loving the music, mainly white critics, you know, heroin the music.

It was like, oh man, what is this? What does this mean?

Like because everything we're talking about is these black issues. But then the people that's starting to you know, come to all the shows is different. We did Lollapalooza, you know what I'm saying. We we did these huge which I love these festivals, don't get me wrong. Like I'm with bands that I absolutely adore, Primise and and you know, I love these bands.

So I'm loving this experience.

But it's a it's a it's a hard thing to sort of reckon, right because you're this.

We're an underground hip hop group talking about black liberation.

And yet we're doing these big rock tours and we're doing things that I wouldn't take back to this day. But it was tough, right to try to understand the trajectory, you know, what.

Was going on.

Carol Lewis of course gets immortalized and paintingful. You know, Nobrie Walker's our agent. Carol Lewis is our agent, word up, indeed whatever. And so I remember the reason why my manager chose Carol Lewis is because you guys were a client and always working, and he saw the basic group that you took, you know, the festivals you were doing. And again this was unheard of at the time in the early nineties. We live now in a America just

A Chitlin circuit kind of.

You basically wanted to un Yeah, it seemed like you wanted to undo the progress of the first album with zing Lamadouni. Because I remember this whole campaign of you know, we're going to do a Chitlin circuit or we're going to do like small clubs and that sort of hanging. I'm like, wait, a minute, y'all sold four million. I've seen you guys open for en Vogue in the summer, like now it's your turn. Really, I was just mad because I wanted you guys in the shed so that

Like go back to the big venues.

But you know, so why what was your mind the mind state of doing what you called the Chitlin circuit run for you know, the.

Launch of zing A Lamaduni.

I felt like we had lost track with the roots, no put un intended. I felt like like we weren't connected with the people, and the machine had gotten so it became so much a part of everything that I felt scared. To be honest, I felt like I was floating and my feet weren't on the ground, like I didn't know what I was connected to and so we went that direction. To me, it reminded me of what Dayla did after their success with three Feet Right, So

Yeah, I say, man, I was surprised. You know, I was very surprised. I thought, ease, my mind was going to be like out of here. I thought that would be like a big yeah, you know what I mean, because I was like, okay, this is them. It sounded like y'all like, okay, this.

Is this is them.

But you know that was my gym.

Yeah, what was the relationship with the label like at the time when y'all would make it that well, so.

It was the perfect storm because the label was going through huge changes, so that we just made them I don't even know how.

Many millions right, right.

And what tends to happen with these big labels is then their presidents start getting changed and people start getting changed, and you know.

They start it brought you into building.

Facts, you start losing your team and the people that you're working with. Simultaneously, the group is going through it. So internally, me and the headliner are going at war with each other behind the scenes, and we're going through everything, you know what I mean, And that that was demoralizing and horrible, and the music industry was changing, you know

So with the remix for people every Day, Wait, did you make both at the same time or was it after the fact, after the album was done.

After the album was done, and in fact, when Tennessee blew Up, which again was the last song we did on the album, right right, So, and so if you could imagine the whole hip hop argument versus melodic singing argument. There was not really a melodic singing record on the record on our album except for there was two songs, a song called You and a song called Rainy Revolution, but none of those were planning to be singles for us.

Became the one. Yeah right exactly.

So I was like, Yo, I'm doing the singing style on Tennessee.

Let me try to basically recreate that same song, different groove and different lot of styles. So I resang it, went into the studio, brought the rest of the group, and we did that.

We did that version. I felt like that was the right call, and it was.

The right call.

It took off question.

Yeah, basically, you know between Tennessee and uh uh people every day and mister Wendell and Natural, you know, I never have that much faith in record companies for like having a plan and successfully executing that plan.

Either.

So who's the person that's going to claim the credit of it? Was my mastermind think because you know, not for nothing. But we followed. We saw that blueprint and was like, oh, this is obviously a blueprint for success. Yeah, like well the label claim that, oh we we had a plan all along, We knew this was going to happen, Like.

Yeah, I would credit a team and it was Michael Maldon, it was myself.

And it was Lindsay Williams. Those are the people.

Lindsay Williams was our A and R guy at Chrisli's. He also signed Gang Star and released Step in the Arena album and stuff after that. So Lindsey knew hip hop. He was from, he is from Harlem. Michael Malden knew us. He understood our vibe, and I knew us. So I feel like between us, we were sort of coming up with what should be this, how should we navigate that?

To these tall high rises on.

Avenue of America's New York and having these meetings with these all these execs at this long table, trying to explain to them why and how rest of development can make it, you know what I mean, And having marketing meetings, like talking about marketing strategies.

So it's just it's crazy.

Usually like record labels usually stories like yours in which other groups, I mean, for every it's development.

I can name other alternative hip hop groups that you know.

It could be the Boogey Monsters, it could be me by me, it could be shit the Roots for the first three or four records, and which the alternative But well no, no, I'm just saying which the label just doesn't have a clue on how to market. And let's be honest, a lot that was selling was also due to the momentum of a controversy. You know, if someone gets shot, if someone goes to jail, if someone has a backstory, then that's easy marketing.

But that's not on the label's part. They're just exploiting that and.

Always just you know, the stars was was aligning for this. You got to talk about working with in the Malcolm X. I can only imagine, like I was really excited seeing revolution for the end of it. I have to know, though, when Spike's approaching you about this in your mind, especially in nineteen ninety two, are you seeing having the flagship song for a Spike Lee film?

Is it pressure?

Because I mean we pretty much are thinking like, oh, you got to come with someone on the level of Fight the Power something like of that level or the button, you know, like there was one point where a song associated with the Spike Lee film could elevate this, so like what is that like?

Like how did that all come about?

It was?

It was incredibly stressful because Public Enemy smashed it with Fight the Power and the way Spike position Fight the Power throughout the film made it such a pivotal.

Part of that film.

I mean, it's an undeniable part of that film, right, you know, it's part of the fabric of the film, not just the soundtrack, you know what I'm saying.

So coming in after that was.

Extremely tough and I felt a lot of pressure, you know what I mean to like to try to make sure that it was Look, I mean, Bomb Squad is a whole crew, you know what I'm saying.

But for me as a producer, still with that ASR ten.

You know what I'm saying.

In HR sixteen, Yeah, I'm striving to make sure that it has the layers and that it has the potency of something that deserves to be in this film, but also making sure that it's still us and not somebody else, you know what I'm saying, making sure it's still who we are as a group and what we do.

Knowing how tenacious Spike is, you know, even for like we did a song for Bamboos or whatever, So I know how Spike is in terms of him putting the pressure on you.

Facts.

How many times did he have to come to you to be like because even Chuck will say I think. I think Keith Shocky told me that Spike didn't like the first three drafts to Fight the Power, Yeah, and the fourth time they finally nailed it. Yeah, you know, because I was asking Keith, like why name some of them fight the power and not have like the Isisley Brothers or reference of that, And he talked about like we did a whole other thing. And then Spike was like, Nah,

You know.

What's funny.

We didn't get a lot of back and forth from Spike on that, and he was very hands on though, so he was in the studio when we were that. He was shouting revolution. He insisted that it be an anthem right from the jump, and so he really trusted in me to deliver and he didn't give me any The only only fighting back that he gave me was the video because I wanted to have a more militant video and he shoot it. Yes, he shot it. He shot it in Brooklyn. We shot it in Brooklyn with him.

Okay, all right, I gotta ask the question.

So again, long time listeners know of my journalism obsession, so without really getting into the specifics of it, I kind of want to ask you about the aftermath of it. And we actually did an entire episode with Danielle Smith, writer and at the time I was living in London and there weren't American publications, uh they you know, it was hard to get you know, now like everything's digitally colonized, so I can get the same magazines that you're getting

And Trouble in Paradise was I was.

Like, yo, like, you know, I'm used to in black journalism. I'm used to like ride on magazine, you know what I mean, Like, Hey, what opposites do you find attractive in the opposite sex? And what kind of foods do you like? So this level of journalism I'd never seen before. Yeah, I've never seen a takedown And for those of you who know, takedown article is kind of where I believe the artist doesn't realize that they're being ambushed facts in

Yeah, like what can you just walk me through it? Like it was?

It was literally a kick in the ass because I was cool with Danielle, Like she came to it at last and she said this. We hung out with Danielle and it was all love, Like it was so much love.

And we needed that article because we had already been facing backlash. We had already been getting a lot of different narratives about where we're going, who we are. Not from a like internal group like any beefs going on in a group, but just from a standpoint of what I was saying earlier, as far as you know, now we're sort of these pop music darlings, which we never were on that tip, but that's what we had sort of become to some extent.

We're winning all these.

Awards, We're going to these big lollapalooza rock tours and all of this. So that article was dear to me, and it for me, it was a sister, a black sister that's come down to Atlanta to hang with us, so she had total access to everybody. And long story short goes on to me.

Oh, is that always the protocol?

Like because even now, like me and Tarique do the Roots interviews, there's eleven of us, but right now it's micking Keith right.

You you felt comfortable and just letting hey talk to everybody.

I did.

I did, and you didn't know I was coming.

Not at all, Like that was one hundred one of those like damn when I read it is when I knew that that's what the take was, because that's not what I was getting from Danielle in person like eye to eye right and with the other members with me too by the way, so like we're with her and I'm not getting that now, min she talks to everybody separately as well, and you know this article starts to.

Listen. There was there was.

Turmoil in the group. I'm not denying that, but that wasn't the narrative of where we even were at as a group. So we were going through turmoil, but we were marching on, like that's where we're at.

Going through y'all were going through turmoil, but y'all weren't trying to sell it.

We were definitely not trying to sell it. And also we weren't it wasn't the major narrative of where we were at as a group. It was a narrative. It was a narrative, but it wasn't the narrative. So when I saw that article and it was the narrative of the entire article, I was like, I lost my faith in journalism from that point forward because I was like, damn, like that was like you said, it was a takedown.

And I don't know what she said.

I don't even if y'all addressed this when you interview her, but it even had to been some type of thing where you know, it's it was a good look for her to do some kind of story or maybe or boss or Uppers was like yo, come in at this way or whatever. I don't know what it was, but it was.

It was crazy.

You know, I don't want to put words in Dan Danielle's mouth, but I definitely I don't.

I can't even write it. It wasn't it.

Wasn't a yeah I did it, and so what like it was definitely a remorseful, like sort of afterthoughts, and she explained, like you you have to understand that I wasn't coming mean spirited. I believe that there was a pressure to not make and again, you know, as I explained earlier, or black journalism before the source, before Vibe magazine was basically just limited to either Ebony magazine where everything was glowing or ride On magazine, where everything was kind.

Of frothy, you know what I mean, but not like real journalism.

And so.

I remember her feeling, like I believe she said that it was a very conflicting thing to do, like as a journalist, do I tell the truth or do we protect because you know, also I know the rules of black people is that you don't spill your dirty laundry in front of the world to see.

And me reading.

That article made me uber obsessive in terms of who we talked to, Like that was the points. That was the point in which I started, you know, studying every journalist, every botty line, looked at other articles they wrote.

Even to this day.

I mean, I'm not as vigilant now as I was, but yeah, it just for me, I was just like, yo, like this group is might might never recover from this, How we didn't How did you so mentally and physically to go that high and then to be in a car crash that wasn't by your intentional design, It's still a car crash. Nevertheless, how did you guys continue with promoting the album or like, was it a rap after that?

It was a rap after that?

I mean, by and large, And so for me, I'm I'm literally pissed at her, Like dude, I saw her. I saw her at events and I literally, you know, I'm saying I won't go there, and I was pissed and I didn't talk to her at all. I just I was literally bitter towards her. I think for me, it was the first time I saw sensationalistic journalism. For me, it was my first introduction to it. So, like you said, articles prior were one thing and different magazines covered things

It was really no circle back for you and Danielle.

I mean at this age I'm now fifty four. Yeah, I could summer black with her, but but.

I'll be honest, like during that time period, probably for probably ten years probably I couldn't talk to her.

Those are our petty years too.

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, I couldn't. I couldn't do it.

You talked about around like ninety six, like when you did your solo record and you know you were you know, you were feeling suicidal at the time.

What took you to that mind stake?

I think it was what you just talked about.

Quest was like it was the drop and how far it was, you know what I mean Like that that's tough to digest for any person.

In my opinion, Yeah, dude, I was gonna say, we that's You're literally the first person to call me to do something, so I forgot like you did a first project.

It was my first music video.

I was in your video you Fully be Myself.

You Foley Dallas Austin.

That's right. He was playing keyboards, right.

Yep, he was playing organ on Ramone.

Harvey was your manager. I remember you and Ramone honking me up.

Yeah, you and.

Ramone picking me up from the hotel exactly.

Yeah.

I didn't want here to speak.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, but I mean I was a fan of y'alls already, Like before I met you. The label showed me y'all's album and was like, Yo, peep this out. So I was a fan already. And at that time the label that was no longer Christalist, it was called EMI and it was sort of morphine and D'Angelo was signed as well, but he wasn't out yet. So I was hearing a lot of the stuff that they was about to go into the direction of. And that's how I knew about y'all. So I was like, yo,

For y'all when you were talking about you know, being in that like kind of deep depressive period.

What got you out of it? How did you get through it?

You know, it was through time but also spirituality. In ninety six, I released my solo album. In ninety six, I was very suicidal and a woman that I auditioned for a tour I was doing in Amsterdam was a Christian and she started talking to me and my wife, and long story short, I became a Christian and that truly saved my life and truly made me think of things differently and see myself as valuable outside of wherever a record was at and where you know, whatever the

That changed my ninety six was also around the time I used to see you on campus. So you were going through all kinds of enlightening.

Facts, and that was I went back to school at Clark. I never went to Clark prior, but I went to school in general, back to college to really, like to I wanted to be around academia in a sense, and I wanted to be around that sense of learning and curiosity and things that I felt was more pure in life.

Wait, you two weren't to Clark at the same time he went.

To Clark as speech emir very brave.

What was that like?

I dream of going back to college, but time won't allow that. So what is that like? Like not starting over again?

But just yeah, it was tough because we had already blown up. This is prior to Zingo LAMADOONI, but it was after three years album so we're huge. I'm very noticeable, very known, and so it was tough and our schedule was absolutely insane. So honestly, I could only stay for a semester. I had to drop back out because it just was it wasn't doable pretty long term unless I would have quit the industry, which I wasn't willing to do it that at that point.

So, yeah, you were still actively releasing music and you guys were, you know, still there. There was a momentum and outside of the United States facts you know very much.

So yeah, Mace did the same thing, though I don't know what it is about Clark, but Mace went to Clark after he was Mace too.

So yeah, reach your Mace, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I think his ministry was in the was on Clark initially.

Yeah, thirty years into this business, can you tell me, like, what have you learned?

What have you like?

What your overall experiences in terms of what you learned, things that you could have changed, or experiences that you've had. I didn't even ask about, like what does success feel like in nineteen ninety two ninety three amongst the people you meet, Like did you even have an inner circle? Like did you become friends with other artists or not?

Or so to answer that last part, yes or no.

I mean I was cool with, you know, certain artists, but not really friends friends because everybody was in the East coast or West coast and we was down in Atlanta, and it just was a different energy. You know, back then hip hop was still very divided. You know, it was West coast, East coast. The South was still not

So so the answered the question, no, I don't think so.

And also I'm a very like everyday people kind of guy, so by nature I didn't find super value in hanging with like clicks in the industry type thing like that.

Wasn't my thing.

So if we if we clicked, it was good, but that just not that that wasn't what I was searching for in a sense.

So you weren't going like making pilgrimage in New York to go record shopping with blah blah blah blah blah or no, and when you come to Atlanta, come hang with us, And.

Yeah, I would start doing that later, like much later, but no, I wouldn't. I wasn't doing that.

At the time.

Does the Atlanta hip hop community look to you to know that you kind of like kind of started this ball rolling in a way, like do you feel the respect from Atlanta in net work?

Yes, and no just when they meet me in person. Know, when it comes to documenting it like whenever there's a documentary about Atlanta, somehow we're sort of left out of it and it starts with organized noise and it starts without castid goodie Mobb, it's funny, let.

Me go on record to give you the flowers and basically says that, yeah, you know, and we really haven't running to each other all that much because it would.

Have been in person, by the way, in Atlanta, if speech was in Atlanta when we was getting Lantah. Yeah, he was gonna be party Atlanta run.

Yeah, okay, facts facts, Yeah, I see, I see.

I'm sorry, I mean interrupted wisdom. No, God, go ahead, no, no.

No, but I'm just saying that.

Yeah, no, I I do acknowledge that you guys, you know, planted a seed and oftentimes, yeah, history doesn't remember pioneers like often people that come after the fact and sort of perfect a formula, that sort of thing. They get the flowers and they get the accolades, and you know, you guys definitely, whether people really want to admit it or not, Like you know, you guys are onsible for

So I definitely I thank you for that. Man.

Well, that means everything. It really does. It means a lot.

And then you just do a show with Christian and Tariq.

Yeah.

I did a show in New Jersey at the Pack Center with Black Thought with Yah seen with Christian.

Showed up on time.

He did he actually was on time, he was before time. Actually he rocked. He did his thing. Rak Kim was supposed to be on it and he broke his foot our ankle, and then Chuck d was supposed to be on it he got COVID.

So but you killed it.

So have you had any communication whatsoever with the the initial original members of the band?

What's the relationship like now?

It's dope. It's dope.

It's never gonna be like it was in the early days. But we're like mad, cordial with one another.

Mad.

You know, when we see each other, it's literally like seeing an old best friend. Right, So, in particular me and Headliner, because that's where the main split was, you know what I mean, and the group sort of split on one side or the other according to that main split, you know what I'm saying. So Headline and I were cool, you know what I mean. The issues are what it was, and I don't think it will ever not be there.

But we're real cool and.

You know, like if he has issues with his family, I'm the first to call him and try to see what I could do, you know what I'm saying, and to help a vice versus. So there's a lot of love there and I think as the older we've gotten, the more we're able to dead the stuff that you know is sort of irrelevant in the gist of time, you know, as time moves on.

Well, not to hint too much, but you know, it is kind of the thirtieth anniversary of that movement.

So if there ever was a time to.

Sort of rekindle or respark or flame whatever, like, you know, just having participated in an event in which we're celebrating our history. And I know, I know hip hop has a lot of disdain for being seen as old or ancient or sages or whatever. You know, the non sexy term is for for having age of wisdom. But I've learned, probably after the Grammy experience, how important it is to acknowledge and celebrate a history.

And I agree you guys have that.

So I you know, I really hope that one day I see it all come back full circle because you know the world needs that, because I still I still spend the music and the magic.

You know, the magic still works, you know.

Pility sixty. We were thinking, we're thinking, no, I.

Mean, it's it's way He's gotten way better than that. Now we've worked all of that out.

Now also, it can really oh make it happen. Oh, last question, this is such a random question. But you talked about land and stuff in Georgia earlier, and I was just curious if you're linked in with those families that bought that ninety seven acres in Georgia.

No, but I that that movement has been something that's important.

For nineteen black families bought ninety seven acres for a safe space for black people. They're building a community. So I was just seems so in speeches like.

Lane, it doesn't have anything to do with doctor yorick.

No, no, no, what nope, and it's dope houses too, dope they they're building it.

Well, I'll send you an article on mereor yeah, I want to see about that.

Well speech brother, brother, thank you, thank you for taking the time out just to speak with us, and thank you. You know again you're a legend and I thank you, thank you, thank you so much for for doing this with us. This is q US, y'all another classic episode, uh speech our guests on the show, Sugar Steve, thank you, speech.

Man, thank you' all, thank you, And I'll send you then article on me of course.

On on behalf. I know once I hang up, I know it's like a question. I forgot to ask I know you.

Last question, Oh yes, can we horseshoes?

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