Questlove Supreme: Rick Rubin

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme.

My name is Quest Love.

We're here today with Layah Sugar, Steve Unpaid, Bill.

And Von Tigelow. Hello.

I will say that our guest today is world renowned. He's a world renowned reducer. Those are his words, not my words. World renowned reducer. From establishing one of the greatest hip hop labels in history, Deft cham Uh, to working with all the greats from Read Now, Chili Pepper, Tom Petty, there's Slayer, there's the Cult, There's Kanye West, There's Dixie Chicks, There's Mick Jagger, there's Neil Diamond.

There's the Roots.

I'm putting it out there anyway. Ladies, please welcome the Guru of music to Quest Love Supreme, to know Rick Rubin. Thank you for doing our show today. Finally, where are you? Where are you currently right now?

Rick?

I am right now in Kawhi on lockdown. That's a good place to be on lockdown? Do you consider is that home for you?

Or is it just like Okay, if I have to be on lockdown, I'd rather be in this particular environment.

We mainly live in Malibu and spend some time here, usually in the winter, and this year the winter extended because of the lockdown, so it seemed like a better place to be on lockdown.

Ah okay, are you able to operate under your your sort of your creative guys at least uh in Kawai?

Or are all these toys in LA?

Toys are in La, But we have a setup here that's working working well.

You have you have an extensive history, So I was debating with myself whether or not to do the normal chron logical thing or should we just go kamakazi because there's so many stories I want to learn about your production. But I do want to know about your introduction to music. First of all, where.

Were you born?

Long Beach, Long Island?

Long Beach, Long Island? Is that where you're born on? Paybill?

No, I was just born on Long Island. Shout out to Long Island. Oh okay, all right, Birds of a Feather, that's cool. What was your the very first record that you purchased?

I remember buying. I don't remember what was the first one, but I remember the experience of buying seven inches. I can remember shopping for forty fives in Times Square store in Oceanside and Snoopy Versus the Red Baron may have been one of them, but I don't I don't remember exactly what the record was.

What was the moment that you realized that, okay, I'd like a space in the music world, or that's what I want to do.

I don't know that I ever had that feeling. I mean, I knew that I loved it, and I knew that it would be a huge part of my life, but I never thought it would be my job. Really, Okay, well, I didn't think that was a I didn't think that was a realistic possibility. I was going to have a real job and that would support my music habit. What were you planning on becoming. I was on track. My parents had me on a track to be a lawyer.

What were your parents?

My dad was a businessman, store owner, my mom was a housewife.

Is Rick Rubin your birth name?

Frederick J. Rubin is the name I was born with, but I was called Rick from the time I was a kid. No one ever called me anything else.

Yeah, you would have been in the Ruben attorney at law. Yeah, that's why. That's that's a lawyer's dare. Okay, I get it. I know.

There's there's a story that I heard about once performing at CBGB's and it was less than desirable, and I believe the end result was your father coming down from Long Island, but he was dressed as a cop. Did I make up that story in my mind or something? But I don't remember ever telling that story. But the story is around and it may be rooted in something that actually happened. I have a vague memory of it, but I don't remember. I can't I can't remember telling

They were heckling you guys.

You guys only did like two songs, and then to give revenge on the other band, your dad came down dressed as a cop trying to shut the show down or something like that.

Nothing like that happened. That was that's the story.

If that was an urban legend or for real.

That's an urban legend. But in the sort of theatrical punk rock pandemonium of making a show more exciting, it is possible that my dad dressed as a cop to stop the show, our show, not to affect anyone else because it would have. It just created a something. I can remember the time we did a show where we worked it out for the sprinkler, the fire sprinklers to go off during the show and just create a general sense of pandemonium in the room.

And what were you were you a what instrument did you play in the band?

Guitar? Are you guitarists? Okay, got I did. I was not.

I wouldn't say I was a guitarist, but I played the guitar. You played the guitar.

Being being as though we rarely get guests on the show that were really really of age, and I mean like in their in their early twenties, at least in

Now?

Was it the best time ever?

Are you one of those people that are like ah Man New York in the early eighties, there's nothing like it ever, like it these romanticized feelings about it.

Yes, it was an incredible time and we would go out every night and uh, there was very little hip hop at that time. You couldn't really see hip hop. You could only see hip hop one night a week. But we went out every night and you would see there was a thriving dance music scene that would have had like groups like Liquid Liquid and ESG and conk Oh Wow. You got to see them in person, all everybody. I saw everyone.

What were they like?

Incredible?

Like ESG, what were they like?

It was just all around the base. It was sort of like a if you think about it looking back, it would be you'd say it was a pretty boring show. But the group was incredible. But it wasn't like a show. It wasn't a show like putting on a show. It was like people in a band standing on stage and playing their songs. So it wasn't theatrical in any way. ESG. As I recall, I think I saw them play at Danceteria if I remember correctly, wow wow. But we would go like if a band was playing at Irving Plaza,

Sadly anyway first making restaurant down.

A flight of stairs.

Is it still there, Yeah, it's still there, but it's.

Shadow of what it shadow of what it used to be.

But that's the place that I used to go to see Jazzy j and uh Africa, Islam and Uh, Busy Bee and Treacherous three and everybody played there and it was one night a week Tuesday, KLB Productions, Cool Lady Blue, And then when it got big, after it got big, then they moved it to the Roxy and that was

You know, So I know about your dorm being def Jam's headquarters, But what was your major at NYU when you were attending.

I started as a philosophy major, and after two years I switched to film and television because, as I said, I was planning on going to law school. You don't need a particular the degree you have undergraduate degree doesn't matter to get into law school. And most of my friends that I liked hanging out with were in film school and that just seemed more fun than the liberal arts side that I was that I started on. So I just switched over, since it didn't matter.

What year was def Jam as a punk label started first, Wait.

Year eighty three, eighty four, something like that.

What were the who were the artist or the label?

At the time, the only records that I made of my own band, all there was was hose hosc and there was a twelve inch and a seven inch, a twelve inch EP and a seven inch. That's all there was. And then I made my first hip hop record, which was It's Yours, which and I'll tell you the story of how that came about because it's interesting. If you want again, if you want to hear it, I'll tell you.

Yes, Yes, we're rabbit Hole Central, We're waiting time.

My favorite group at the time were The Treacherous Three. And I didn't know anything at all about the record business. I didn't know that there were I didn't know what a producer did. I didn't know that there were record companies. I didn't know that people had contracts. I literally knew nothing other than I love music more than anything. I

Now.

Kumo D was going to school on Long Island, so they were all like college age at this time. And then Kumo D came to visit me at the dorm.

Was it Yes we Can Can on sugar Hill might have been. I didn't like that yeah, yeah, so I might have made so high.

So as a fan, I said, let's get together. I just want to talk to you about this music. You know, I'm a fan. I want to talk to you. And then I said, and then again I was I had great confidence in my taste just because I really you know, I truly felt it with all of my heart. And this was in a time when not a lot of people were listening to this music. It was a tiny underground scene at the time. You have to keep in mind this is there were the first round of def

By this point, Uh is this pre or post? It's yours like this that's.

Leading up, this is leading up to it. There's no I've done nothing.

Oh so he just he just befriended you on trust, not knowing anything about your.

No, he didn't even befriend me on trust. He's just like somebody cares in a time when nobody cares. Why nobody cares? You understand, it is a tiny little world that nobody was interested in. I was interested. I could speak about it with passion because I had that passion. So there weren't that many heads at that moment in time. So I get together with Kulmo D and I say, okay, the records you made on Enjoy are great. Now there's this new thing. It's not as good as the rest.

It was.

It was essentially like a Special K solo record lyrically.

What and even lyrically that was really ahead of his time even back then as.

It was incredible.

Story just what ever?

Else?

I don't know it's yours?

Wait, Rick, are you even familiar about the Tela Rock situation right now?

I've heard a little bit recently.

I don't know what's going on. It's in Okay.

I won't do any I won't do any justice to the story. I'll just say that if you google Tela Rock. GQ magazine. GQ magazine, damn near gave Tela Rock a seven page feature story, long story short. I meet this woman, this like this high society hoity toity, upscale woman from like the West Side, and she comes to me and says, hey, I'm doing Think of like the woman the woman in Wild Style, like totally a fish out of water, right,

Three years later, there's a story in.

GQ magazine that I didn't know, which basically he went into a coma and because he had no ID or anything on him. Think of like Michael Jackson's character on The Simpsons. He winds up in this old folks home in the Bronx. They don't know who he is, or he doesn't know who he is, knows nothing. I think it about in months or so, his family finally locates him, but he's comfortable with his life at this old folks home and now they have to explain to him who he was.

You were once you were the first.

Rapper's brutal attack a mirror.

But the headline is the man who forgot he was a rap legend, right, which is pretty great.

I don't know how he got into that coma, but I do know that he was in a coma and he didn't know who or what he was, and he slowly had to be taught everything about himself. But now he just has this new life and as the young guy, as the young stud in a nursing home.

Wow. Yeah, and he likes his life there.

But it's they say that other residents are mostly elderly Jewish and Yiddish speakers, so that must be.

Yeah, like the word about like who's this black guy? And are are missing? They're like, well, he was once a rapper on Russell Simmons label like that sort it's the crazy story you ever heard, but it's yeah. I was floored once I seen it. Now I wish I wouldn't have dismissed that woman, like that movie has to be made.

Nah, that's a movie.

Sounds great.

Yeah, that's him now. Yeah, it's a crazy movie.

And it looks exactly the same. By the way, it's exactly what you looked like. Then.

How old were you when you did that record?

Twenty shit, maybe maybe nineteen, I don't know.

Yeah, and that was just you on the on the eight away and then what did y'all track it on?

If you remember, we tracked it this There was a studio that advertised in the Village Voice called power Play in Long Island City, which was the cheapest studio you could go into, and we recorded it. I recorded my punk rock band there before, and then we recorded that it's yours there and we recorded it, you know, in a couple of hours, pretty pretty quick. Another piece, the reason Jazzy J. The reason it is Telarak and Jazzy J was again as a fan of hip hop, as

Yeah, there was no industry read that was Bill.

New And what was the fundamental difference between the club and the and the record. What were you trying to capture? Was it just the I'll you tell you no?

Okay?

Because even on the a cappella version of that record. In my mind, there's a million people in the room, do it like because you're the king of the who ho like that?

That that sort of thing, like the people in the background.

Yes, how many people were in the room when that those party noise were made?

Four or five? Five or six of us? Two times? Maybe maybe three? Was that Rock one of those people? Absolutely?

Okay?

Okay? At yeah, me Ad Rock, probably Special k Jazzy j who everybody who was in the hit, maybe even the engineer of the session, like any people we had on hand to get the the that party vibe. So Okay, so let me explain how I heard what I heard different about the club versus the records, and a lot of this has to do with me not knowing anything the way that rap records had been made up until that point. Those records were made by people who had

Wow, was it hard to get because you know the stories that I've heard from Russell's reaction to the record was that it was hard to believe that this white boy made such a definitive black album. So how how how hard was it to convince people that you're the guy that made it's yours?

Like was it heart cell or.

The whole thing was so strange, like it was the record was already a weird record. Yes, Russell always referred to it as more black than anything else. But to me, it was just more representative of the club, you know, it was more like it was like a documentary of what I experienced going to the club.

All Right, So since we're talking about your eight o eight period, and I guess our listeners, it should be noted that, really, I mean, yes, I know that there's a tie between like you and Arthur Baker. That Tela Rock single was like sort of a cross between def Jam and it wasn't start whatever Party Time?

Party Time?

Wasn't that one of the author breakers Offspring Levels as well?

At the way I can tell you how that happened as well, which was I was going to put it out independently myself, the way I put out my punk Rock Records with nine to nine Records, which is a record store or really cool independent record store on Google Street, Yeah, DSG, and they put out Bush Tetras and Liquid Liquid. They put out the record that the message was based on actually.

Yeah, I have those records. Yeah.

So the guy who ran that record store was sort of my mentor in that he walked me through the process. He's like, Okay, here's a list of studios you could go to. Here's a place you could have the vinyl press,

I drew that looking, you drew that looking.

I drew the Yeah, I did. My aunt Carol worked at Este Lauder in the creative creative services department, and I would hang out there a lot, and I used press type and I made it on a day that either they were closed or just when nobody was around at one of the designers tables, just experimenting with different things. And the reason the reason it has the big DJ was to make that point of like, this is DJ culture.

Was that a one thing Willie drawing or was that like, okay, on the fifth one, I liked this one.

I tried a lot of things. I mean I tried a lot of things, but it happened pretty quick. It came in, you know, came in a day. I drew it a bunch of like uppercase lowercase, what looks good and moving it around and then found I.

Still have your sketches of it? Or are they long? A think?

So? I probably long got it. I don't. It's possible that they exist because I had a lot of stuff at my parents' house and then some of that stuff is in a in storage somewhere, but I've never looked at it.

I was going to ask, what does it feel?

Because I've heard a Mirror and Tarik say that sometimes they went on deaf Jam just because they wanted to be able to have that logo affiliated with their name.

That's gotta feel crazy just for my drawing.

That's yeah, Like you know, I in class, I draw that logo on imaginary roots albums that didn't exist yet, like hanging that shit on my wall.

I probably did exactly the same thing, and then it ended up becoming you know, they weren't roots albums, but they were whatever it was. It was just like playing with how do we say that, what's the name going to be? What's it going to look like?

How does it work?

In eighty three eighty four? How expensive are are eight to weight drum machines? I don't know, something that you casually come across.

It's something that I luckily came across because there was a guy in my dorm room who was in an alternative rock band called the Speedies, and he had that machine and he lent he lent me the eight a weight drum machine. That's how I came across it.

So were you able to program and save beats or is it just like you turn on you show what you could do.

And print it.

You could make twenty or so pre program beats.

So how long is the conversation with Russell Simmons before you realize that you're going to go into partnership with him and start the label officially?

I met Russell at a party for a Graffiti Rock, that that TV Wow where Treacher's Three and run. Yeah, and I went there, you know, hoping that Treacher's Three would be there because they were, you know, my favorite group.

And this is like a party.

This was an after party. And someone introduced me to Russell and I told him I made It's yours and he couldn't believe it. It's just like, no way, It's like, you're white, you didn't make that record.

And again, but you have.

To understand, there were there really were.

Well.

Tom Silverman was involved in hip hop. He was the only other white person I would say that I knew who had any relationship to hip hop at that time.

Yeah, but he wasn't making beats. He was.

He was really helpful. He was really helpful to us, like he was someone another Like I had these great mentors. I had the guy at nine nine Records, ed Ed Baleman, his name was and and I had to Tommy and I would call Tom's just like, hey, what do I do? Monica Lynch who worked with Tommy, like it's like what do we do? How do What's the next step? And I can remember his story. I don't think I've ever told anyone. It's interesting why I was excited about having

He was a writer.

He was he was a writer. But listen, let me let me tell you. Let me tell you the story. So again, it's amazing the fact that I even I don't know how I knew who he was or how it worked out that I that I. But I literally went up to him on the street and said, hey, I made this record, and what do I have to do to get people to hear it? Like how do I do this? And this was it's yours. I don't even think I had there. I was just more of a conversations like how does it work? How does this work?

I got to get to the bottom of this story.

Now, if he was a writer for the Village Voice, and he too was, you know, a hopeful record mogul. Yet you know the story in the Fable of Aaron is that he would go hard and the paint ensuing any product on def jam that contained any of the samples that he owned.

I would say even beyond that is that if he knew any song had the potential to be sampled, he'd try to buy up the right so that he could sue whoever sampled it.

Well, yeah, that too.

But I'm almost feeling like maybe he has a personal beef with Russell that none of us are aware of, because there are other samples that he could have went after that he never did.

But if it was on deaf Jam, it's like like Goodfellas, fuck you pay me.

They always wanted to know if that was if there was like a burnt bridge, and it's sort of like, okay, well I get you.

When he told me about Russell, he was not positive about him. It was not a positive conversation, but it was just this. It was a piece of information that was helpful.

There's an article that or a block that Harry Allen once wrote in in honor of your early production methods, in which you know, it's noted that you have the loudest eight h eight sounds, the loudest scratches, like your scratches on going back to Cali, Like it's just louder than everything. So even like what's your engineering process or just your whole theory on pushing it to the limit.

There is none. I will say, I like, if you're gonna put something in there, I want to be able to hear it, like I want. The idea of having scratching as this sort of background element that's going on all the time is not so interesting to me. It's like, if it's gonna be there, it should be only exactly when it needs to be there, and it should be crazy loud, because in some ways it's like it's like lead guitar. You know, it's a punctuation moment. It's not

And I can hear that in your I can really hear that in your rock production Predicative, particularly on Californication, which is probably my favorite Rick Rubin produced album.

How cool but nah, I love.

That recormand like I when I preserved it, it was just I was taken aback by just how the way you track Anthony's vocals, like it sounded almost like to the edge of distortion but not quite and it just had that kind of grid on it and it was just really in your face.

And I love that record. I just wanted to hear on that one.

So you were about to tell the Rock the bell story, I think, yeah, and I'll tell you what.

I remember, But but I don't remember the Bob James record ever being in the conversation. It may have been, it may have been something that Elle had been thinking and wanting to do. Oh, okay, okay, but I don't remember it. I don't remember talking about it. Yeah, I was gonna say, it's even possible that when it was time to record it, that he suggested it. And it is possible that we were already working on the run DMC, the Peter Piper song.

It is possible, all right, what was your one of the one of the factors that you also used in your early production was the sound of Go Go and Rock the Bells. And then She's crafty and also you know, I'll say that one of one of the things I've done in the Quarantine Punishment is practically purchased every Go Go album made available and nothing I hate. And I know a lot of it has to do with either the studios that they record in. Either it's too clean

The drop the bombs incredible?

Okay, I'll say early early Trumpel, early trumble Funk.

Yes, they're they're, they're. Their mixing was immaculate. But what was.

The process in recording the Junkyard band and why didn't you press one further with them?

Okay, let me I'm going to just talk for a second about I agree with you. The only the only go Go records I like are old Trouble Funk records other than Sardines, which I think was good. And I want to talk about that a little bit because what you're describing is exactly the way I felt about hip hop. Where you could buy in those days, the early days of hip hop, I could buy a twelve inch or two every week, that's all that would come out that would be hip hop, And none of them did for me.

Do you think that's because it's kind of designed for it to be a live situation more than a record at the end of the day, like a studio album.

I just think that the wrong people were helping make the music. The wrong people were involved on the recording side.

Yes, I don't like how half the Go Go records are engineered. Not I mean, I love Rare Essence more than any band on Earth, but it just frustrates me that the energy and the engineering of when I hear them live or even I hear like some of their live mixtapes that's not captured on a studio cut.

For me, That's what I'm saying.

And so why was Sardines and the Word just a one off twelve inch? Was there ever a conversation about recording Junkyard as a band or I mean, not as a band, as a full album.

I don't really remember, and I think not long after I ended up leaving Deaf Jam, So it may have been that it was just like towards the end of the time that I was doing stuff with Deaf Jam and then just stopped. But I don't remember. I don't remember there being First of all, nobody particularly cared about it, like we liked it, but it's not like there was any demand for the Junkyard band. As crazy as that sounds, I loved them.

I was told to ask you about the making of Crush Groove the song. What tell me the story the making of Crushgroove the song?

What's I was thinking about? It's funny that this has been I couldn't. I didn't remember what song that was there. I had a memory that we did a song with run DMC and other artists, and I remember the conversation in the studio because it was heated and particularly on my as it related to me, like I was very unhappy with what was going on, and I thought it for some reason, I thought it was a Christmas song, but have come to realize it's actually that Crush Groove song.

Curtis Blow?

Okay, the movie people wanted a song for the movie. They got the Fat Boys, Sheila E and Curtis Blow on this track that sounded like a track that would fit on and maybe any one of the three of their albums, maybe she'lla eat Less, but it sounded most like a fat Boys records.

Like a fat Boy Curtis blow record.

Yeah, it sounded like a fat Boy Curtis blow record. So when we got to the studio, okay, do you want to play it?

Many in love? Then in love?

Then I think I was five when this came out.

I love this fucking song a long way.

Now we heal, okay, so what's what's When we got to the studio, the mission was, we're doing this song for the movie. They provided us this song. The other EMC's ready on it, and now I'm there as Run DMC's producer, and they're supposed to get on this on this track and right, and it sounded only like the beginning of the song didn't sound like the run DMC part right, And I said, there's no way Run DMC could be on this. They cannot be on this. It's like,

Like Larry, Larry and Curtis weren't offended. I don't. I don't even know.

I didn't even know who produced it. Yeah, I didn't know that. I do remember Curtis was pissed off after saying, how come I can't be over the part that runs on? Like? How come he couldn't.

Write a breakdown? Yeah? The breakdown?

Can you talk about? You know, there's there's producer as as song clinician and arranger and and music person, and there's something about producer as social psychologist. And I feel like your your life and correct me if I'm wrong. It's sort of this weird thing that rides between them and the great producers that I know run this line that I don't fully understand how to run, and I feel like you've mastered it and and and in your

So like, I don't know.

I mean, you call yourself a reducer, and I get that sort of play on words, but like, I don't know, what is it? What is it about all of that that makes it work, that makes that makes you enjoy what you do as well? Because that, to me is fascinating.

I'll say that I think it always changes. At the time that I was more of a beat making producer, which are the days we're talking about now, was not. I was not good at the uh psychology part and the collaborating I was not good. I was much more of a I know what's good and you're going to do it my way, probably for my hip hop early hip hop days. And then as I started working with more rock bands, I started understanding more the dynamics of

Yeah, that's yeah, that's.

So learn Okay, So before before I get to the Beastie Boys, well, unpaid Bill sort.

Of sorry y divert, but because.

Actually my next question leads to what you would headed with uh unpaid Bill, which is basically, whenever you show up and whenever you show up in the credits, two things are bound to happen, and that is you're going to.

Reduce the sound.

So we already talked about the idea of you stripping stuff down to just its bare bones and making it loud. But it's also you really introduced the idea of cross genres in modern hip hop music. I mean with with run DMC having their biggest hit with Walk This Way, even with the Beastie Boys, at least in their their narrative of it, like we were making fun of smoking in the boys rooms, and now you can go with

It's all psychology?

It seems like, yeah, how how much of that is a nightmare for you when you just want to make the damn song and leave.

My whole relationship to it has changed over the years, so in the case of run DMC. Then it was frustrating and I didn't have the tools to deal with it. But luckily Russell called called run Indee and said, just do whatever Rick says. It's like, really knows what he's doing. Just do what Rick says. So had that not happened, they wouldn't have they wouldn't have been on the record. That record wouldn't have happened. So that's how that happened.

And even after Rock Box and King of Rock, they don't know that they're on a winning formula, just like one one moment away from super Jackpot.

Well, this had less to do with it being a rock song. It had more to do with singing someone else's words and singing someone else's which they had never done before, and singing someone else's words that they didn't necessarily like.

How long did that process take? Walk this way? I'm talking.

Same as everything you know, same as everything else. The only thing that was different was because Steve and Joe appeared on the record. There was an extra day working on it with those guys playing guitar and singing, singing vocals, the guys from Merrismith.

With the Beastie Boys, Well, first of all, I want to know who introduced ah. I have so many questions. Number one, the bast groove rock hard twelve inches? Who were the Latin Rascals because I've always I've seen their names and like all these twelve inches from eighty nine, eighty three to eighty five, and then poof Nothing, Who were the Latin Rascals.

The Latin Rascals were two club DJs who worked at Shakedown, Arthur Baker's studio, who invented this is pre sampler. There were no samplers and they invented away. It was their own style of doing remixes where they would do these edits on half inch tape where they would repeat the same like through editing. So it was like it wasn't scratching. There was no sampling yet, and there was this other

On this Party's getting rough that little see Philadelphia where I come from has a very different relationship with this

That's on the album as side too.

We never heard of the drum machine version in Philly ever, so when they're playing holding now hit it, there's no such thing as an a cappella or you jogglingly called it acapolca version, and we thought, yo, dude, it was such. It was the most radical shit we ever heard because our thing was like, the only way I canna describe it.

Is if you ever seen pooty Tang. And when Chris.

Rock asked, the DJ introduces that song of silence, like and now this new song.

Slence, I'm just saying he's friends with Chris Rock. I don't know. Anyway.

The whole point was that we made up in our minds like yo, these dudes are so incredible they don't.

Even need music and hold it now hit it.

The a cappella was number one on the Power nine at nine for months to the point where when we got the album and heard that drum now, it's weird because in Florida, every everyone from down South, I know, even Fromier, tells the story like when you're getting your car.

System, the song that you tested to.

See if you're if your car system was right was holding out hit It because you like you mix your your joints loud as fuck. When we got that in Philly, we didn't know what the like, Yo, what's this drum ship? Like this ain't on the album. To this day, I will never acknowledge the album version of holding Out Hit. I will only DJ the a cappella.

Version, but even love to hear I've never heard the a cappella version. I'd love to hear it. I don't remember ever hearing it. I bet it's great, probably better.

That's crazy.

It's your label. It's the first acapella in the history. Like love that, Yeah, this is the first in history.

And in working their album, like how involved are you with with the marketing? And because I'll be honest with you for two from eighty five till we purchased the album and saw the gatefold cover, I didn't know the Beastie Boys were white. We thought they were Puerto Rican affiliate at least, So was that by design to like not put them on the album cover and just ride it out till.

Not at all the way we did it. We didn't. We never even thought about it. On the the seven original Deaf Jam singles, the Maroon label singles of which where rock Hard was one of those. I think that's the only Beast record that was. Yeah, there was an l there was that. There was Hollis Creek, Hollis Crew, Jimmy Spicer, Jim y'all, I'm a Girl Watcher with Papa d and Papa Son. I don't think that was on Maroon.

Oh okay, Well there was also mc A and BAZOUDI.

Yeah, yeah.

Zuti.

Zuti is an engineer in New York named Jay Burnett, and he was the guy who turned me onto the studio that we lovingly renamed chun King, the original the original Chunk King, And the reason I called it chun King was I didn't want anyone to know that it was such a terrible place that we were working in, so I made up Chunking.

House of Metal was like a just the.

The one on that was on.

No, it's before the very.

One, before the veryck one it was on. It was it church between Broom and Grand something like that, across from the there's that police building, you know, the police building. It was on that block, five floor walk up. The rest of the building were like sweatshops. It was a really weird place.

It was.

It was really Again, I didn't know this because I wasn't into it. But it was just a drug deal in place I think had they just had a studio, but it was mainly drug dealing. But I didn't know that.

I speaking Steve, Yes, you know, speaking of which now, I don't mean I was just reminiscent.

I think I I think I was at that place dropping off tapes as an intern. Yeah the first place, Yeah, it was. I was only there once. So but we recorded.

We recorded all of the Beat Boys stuff there. We recorded Raising Hell there. We recorded a lot of the early Deft Gem stuff there, maybe all of it, maybe all of it.

I was going to say, Steve, that that d m X drum machine that's hanging in our studio, Yeah that's ricks.

Yeah, I know, I know this is all tell the world. But you know, I mean that one question knows that in this room?

Okay, is that a stolen or no? We know? Is it? We you know what we had to re record.

I can't write left handed with John Legend, and we were running out of studios and it just so happens that that was open, and when we got there, we were told this is our last day and kind of you know, I was like doing my fan boys thing like, oh my god, this is the old chun king and no, no, and whoever the owner was a guy he's like just like on some me and Joe Green here kid catch.

Wow.

He showed me this is this d m X and he's has created you know, all the deaf jam days has been here forever. You know, you'll take care of this and I took it.

Sorry anyway that may that may or may not be true.

Well, I'm sure.

There's multiple I'm sure there's multiple DMX drum scenes. But I prefer my version of it was the was the just the the flood game of Licensed to Ill? Was that scary to you or overwhelming at the time? And how are you guys treated by Columbia Records?

By this point we were never treated well by anybody.

Even when selling twelve million units? Yes, even then, man, really wow?

So you were still we were off the red nose the rain? I mean, was this it was this yet Nakoff period? Was this U Matola period?

Like? Where was Yetnikoff? And al Teller? Those were the people that I don't.

Tell her from. MCA was at Columbia.

First, he was the president of Columbia at the time that we were there.

Damn.

The only person that I ever really dealt with on a regular basis was Jeff Jones, who was a great guy. He was a product manager and he now runs Apple Records for the Beatles based in London, and he's still around and he remembers, like, he told me stories of things that happened back then. I didn't remember, but it was funny, like like with License to Ill, he said.

What do you mean?

It's like, we do this all we're doing this. Of course it's going to have a barcode. He's like, no, but Rick won't let us have the barcode. He's like, he's insistent. So again, I had no memory of that. But we would fight. We would fight for the art to get the art the way we want it all the time, and people just didn't know what it was, you know, say, very little understanding of what it was that we were doing.

Who can sceptualize the album cover for License to Ill?

That was me? And what was hard, I'll tell you. I had just read the led Zeppelin book Hammer of the Gods, about them being on tour and all the debauchery of crazy rock stardom, and and there were images of led Zeppelin's airplane in the book, and it just seemed like, wow, that's just like the height of decadence. This an airplane with this crazy rock and roll lifestyle going on. And I thought it would be interesting to have a beastie boy, a beastie boy airplane representing this

The inner sleeve has anyone ever, you know, it's weird when I seen it. I remember getting the album like Thanksgiving of eighty six, so I would like to think that I think the album came out in November of eighty six, like late November, but this happened. The album cover occurred like nine months after the Space Settle challenge thing.

The challenges joint the challenge like traumatize the shit out of me.

Yeah, in kindergarten, yo.

Yeah, and like so so that album and see that like just traumatize me even more.

So.

It's weird, like I have love this.

Love relationship with with the album because it's so you know, my monumental but it's like, ah, the nights.

I just looked at that album cover like it's killing me.

I didn't. I didn't know about the crash, and it didn't I'll tell you now in I knew it at the time, but I didn't know enough to be able to get it the way I really wanted it. But it never was the way I really wanted it, which was I wanted to look more really like a photograph, and instead it looks more like a Mad magazine cover cartoon like it. It's more cartoony looking than I would have liked it to be. I would have liked it to be like photo realist.

Who will be ohms. The artist that drew was he a friend of yours or no?

No, he was a friend of the guy who was our art director at the label, Steve Byron was his name, And I would just say, hey, this is the vision for the cover. How do we get this made? And then he had his friend he commissioned it. But which is why it didn't come out the way I wanted it to come out. You know, it's like, uh, so you've seen it, We're disappointed. Yeah, I said, this isn't really It's like the image is right, but the way it was done was not right. It felt more like

I didn't know. That was not my idea?

So what did you think about Eminem's to it?

But then I forgot you produced that? He produced that?

Did you talk to you want it? Or did he say I wanted to wi one? Eminem's album, Uh not a music to be murdered by? I was the one before that one. It was the Recovery at the pull Up Recovery. It just came out like a year or two ago.

Oh I'm looking right now to produce that. Yeah, we wait, which would you white? Question? Which is rick? How do you pick your projects.

Just based on liking them, either liking the music or liking the artist one or the other.

Like Coma Cozi Sorry Kamakazi, that was it?

Yeah, I didn't produced that.

Oh I thought you produced the last comic Cozi. Yikes? Okay, I stand corrected. Well.

Tribute to Licensed to ILLM so oh cool? Yeah, as an album coming just.

On the back of Bill's question, Rick, how come you only did one? I noticed you only did U the Andrew Dice Clay album, like that was your only comedian that you work with?

Well, we did. I think we did five five Andrew Dice Clay out right right, And I always looked for other comedians to work with, but never found there was At one point I was interested in recording Carlos Mencia. I don't know, oh wow, And I think we like started talking about it, maybe even recorded a little bit, but it just never never came together. For whatever reason.

Have you gotten any more requests though comedian?

Why? Well? I love Girod. I think he's incredible. I've never thought about him doing an album, but that's a really interesting idea.

Okay, he wants it. I'm sorry.

How long did you have to bug Public get him until Chuck finally relented and signed to the label.

It was a really long time. It was a long time. I want to say it felt like forever then, but it was probably nine months, maybe a year, but fort you know, when you're twenty years old, a year is forever.

No, that's a long time. And they had.

A post it note of Chuck's number next to my phone, and anytime I would walk by the phone, I'd see it and I would call. And then Bill Stephanie, who was our first employee at def JAM. He knew Chuck, and at one point I got so frustrated, I said, you have to tell Chuck. If he doesn't sign to deaf Jam, I'm firing you. Like, you have to convince him he has to do this. And it's not like he wanted to sign to someone else. He didn't want to make records. That was the thing. It's like, here's

How did you How did you feel about the Bomb Squad's production methods, because that's the total opposite of your reduction love Brooch loved it.

I like I like different things, you know I'm not. I like all kinds of different things. I actually heard something on your on your James Brown recent DJ set right. Maybe it was nine two if I remember correctly, For the first time I heard what I think was the inspiration for the Bomb Squad that I'd never heard before.

Wow, I have.

To find I'll find it and send it to you, just so you have for your own reference. I think you pieced you put the pieces of a puzzle together for me that I never knew were there. I see.

You know during this period at least between eighty six and eighty nine, I mean between your work with ll and I'm curious as to why you did not produce bigger endeavor And I always wanted to know how you felt about like the La Posse and I Need Love and all that stuff. But you're doing these Slayer records and not to mention, like I mean your heart met, Like how what is your approach to Are you just leading from the gut or do you have like a

Just going into the studio and first going into pre production, talking about the parts in the songs, helping make them as good as they could be, and then figuring out how to In their case, it was interesting because they already were popular, a popular underground band. Like the night I saw them they sold out the Ritz, which was pretty substantial place I saw them at. The Rits blew

Who was there drummer?

Because I've never heard I've never heard someone play double kick that intense.

Yeah, and.

You know, not not only is it intense, it's funky. That's the He's the only of all the heavy metal drummers I've ever heard who play in that double kick drum style. He's the only one where it's groovy. Maybe Lars isn't that Lars thing though, That's not what Lars does. Okay, that's what Lars does groovy. Lars does something else. So it's more like a prog a fast prog rock drummer.

So some kid at school puts me on you know, by the time I get a nation of millions, some kid puts me onto Random Blood and then uh plays yeah, yeah, she you know when I was listening to she watch Channel Zone and they're like, well, you know, that's that's a Slayer song and playing the original journ and then like I started buying.

The records just as the complete its.

But yeah, trying to play that ship because there was like a hard rock band that I joined, like in high school for like four months, but I quit because like I can't do double foot action that good. But it's like, how did you capture those performances? Like are there jam sessions?

Are there?

Like, guys, here's a chorus's or is it just like okay, open e open minor just boss the wall go.

No no, no no no. They they wrote the songs. I came in. I said, maybe this part's too long, maybe this part's too short, maybe we need another part here. But very it's all them, it's all them. And Slayer were unbelievable, and then it was just properly recording them in a way not to screw it up. And here was a big breakthrough. Sonic breakthrough in my mind was the only records you could hear that were that approached that speed at that time would be like Metallica's first record.

So how do you know the difference between what to give a slayer as opposed to like the word that you did with the cull as far as rock sounds are concerned.

Now, I know you know, like how much.

Research do you have to put into the acts that you work with to know.

What their strengths and their weaknesses are.

I put no research in whatsoever. But the research that I do is as a fan all the time, listening to music all the time, and I listen and then based on what I'm hearing, I'll make suggestions just based on whatever whatever little bit that I've picked up from listening to music my whole life.

We should probably be asking to LL this.

But since you were there to help make the track, what exactly went between LL and cool Mode that made him make Jack the Ripper?

I remember it? Yeah, I don't know that anything happened. I think it might have just been that.

I mean, did you realize that you were making a cool mod diss record.

Nope, and one of the first disc records. I never thought about it.

That was your boy friend back in the day.

Yeah, I loved him.

You You never thought about it that way at all.

And it goes back to.

Your go go love too, because it was the Chuck Brown tample, the sol disamble.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot. I forgot that. Ashley's George's clip is yeah, Chuck, it's not just the paint and full break Yeah. How how Uh? What was your experience like shooting Tougher than Leather?

Terrible experience you directed?

Yeah?

I was gonna say, Okay, I'm a first time director.

What what what can you what? What? What advice can you give me? I mean, sorry, my movie's already.

Done, so okay. I was going to say, if you have an opportunity not to do it, don't leave.

Wow.

Okay, So tell me about your experience in directing Tougher than Leather?

Uh, Well, where I didn't know what I was doing. In the recording studio, it was easy because there were so few people there and mistakes were low and on a movie set, there are many more people, and the schedule is like, Hey, I'm going to be an hour late to the studio today. Talk to you, talk to you guys later, No problem, movie sets not like that.

Did you insist on directing that movie or was it like you had an upcoming aprier to do it or something like? How did you wind up holding the director's manual?

Me and my friend Rick wrote the idea. It was Rick was really more the writer than I. We would throw ideas together, but Rick was the main writer. Rick Manelo and who was the guy who ran the desk at my dorm, so he'd be the night He would

So he's been in a few Deaf Jam.

Products or yes, and he directed Going Back to Cali as well. Oh the video of Going Back to Cali, which we storyboarded together at the desk at Weinstein the dormitory at NYU.

Okay, So something I don't know, and I don't know if you ever went on record. I never knew how or why you left Deaf Jam. I just remember your name being on the executive producer for a Nation of Millions, and then when I looked for your name on Fear of a Black Planet, you weren't there anymore.

And then I next I heard of you. You had a funeral for the word deaf.

So what I mean, why did you decide to leave the your your your first love?

It really had to There were two things going on. One was over the time together ever many years. It was three, four or five years. My relationship with Russell was starting to I wouldn't say it ever turned bad, because we were always good friends, but it felt like our what we wanted was changing, and I felt like I really loved our friendship and didn't want our friendship to end, and I thought, if we remained partners, our friendship's probably going to end, so maybe it's better just

Even though you're making that money. Yeah, I'm in eighty seven.

You guys are so more units than Michael Jackson's bed.

Yeah, and yeah.

It was unbelievable. I had a meeting with Al Teller at the time, who's the president of the company, and told him all of my concerns and I talked for a half hour and I got really emotional. I started crying because again, I care so much about this shit. It's my whole life. And at the end of the conversation, I say, you know, we got to we have to figure out a way to fix this, because if not, I have to leave. Like I can't. I can't keep

That sound effect with me.

This is this is really, this is real.

So how long until death? Americans started right away?

Because when I left Fjam I had already started, like Slayer was signed to death Jam originally, Danzig was signed to deaf Jam originally, and Dice. I can't remember if Dice was if I had already signed Dice or not. When I remember going out to lunch with Russell and saying, you know, this isn't going to work. I don't the relationship with Columbia's bad. And oh so what that meeting that I told you about, the start at the beginning

It wasn't I thought that, Yeah, yikes, because you left before well you left after the Beasties left, correct.

Well left after the Beasties left. Yeah, yeah, how did did you?

And like uh at Rock or any of them, did y'all have have conversations about why you both left or where?

Interesting?

Interestingly, interestingly, we have never really discussed it, and it's definitely an elephant in the room that would be good to discuss, and we just never did. But I'm sure it'll happen. It may happen next week, like it'll happen.

What were your thoughts on Paul's boutique?

Loved it, thought it was the I remember listening to it at the Mandrian Hotel, me and Chuck d together. We were We were there because I think Public Enemy was going to appear somewhere in California. I don't know whether it was a club date or a TV show, but we're at the Mandre on we got an advance. I don't even know if it was in advance. It might have just been like from the studio like they had just finished it and me and Chuck listened to it and we both thought, oh my god, this is

Thing that I remembered the most, at least your first year of Death American, was all the press that you got as far as the Ghetto Boys were concerned. How did they come, how did they come across your radar? And what was it about them that drew each to them? And all the ensuing controversy that came with them, Like.

Yeah, I had never heard like NWA was already happening. Well maybe just the Easy E album. I don't know if there was an NWA album yet. There was an Easy E album for sure, and I loved Easy E. And then I heard the Ghetto Boys and I felt like, oh, like where NWA was gangster, this is like hard in that way, but more like more unhinged, more like horror like like violent but not violent like a bad drug deal gone wrong, like violent like a horror movie, you know,

Okay, so, how how much of I'm in now?

It's like, especially in the environment that we're in right now, as far as like uh, right wing Republican Christian news talking points and those things like you know, now it's sort of like you collectively roll your eyes or that, you know, like that side of the fence is lying. But back in nineteen eighty nine, ninety like, they it seemed like real threats. And I remember I knew the Ghetto Boys because one Chuck Jees chucked Thees shouted them

This is the first TI I'm ever hearing of that being the case.

What you mean, Ted White? Ted White? I think who ran Billboard? Oh man?

He wrote like paragraphs and dissertation of mind of all I would have never ever like the surefireway to get a seventeen eighteen year old to buy the ship. It's because Ted White could not a billboard, could not stop writing about how violent Scarface's mind of a lunatic was and this needs to be banned and shit. I was like, word, I'm gonna buy this shit. Yeah, Lama parents hated it must be good.

Yeah. I always like crazy shit, you know, I like edgy crazy shit. It's interesting to me. It's fun.

But you do realize like being parents' worst nightmare.

Is also like that's great marketing.

That's a regged execs candy like that. That's so that never excited you at all.

No, I never never thought about it because usually I would have to get the calls more like the record company not wanting to put it out, you know, that's what I had to deal with, Like Slayer, Columbia Records refused to put out that Slayer record, So then I had to find a new way to release it, even though the first one was on Deaf Jam, but it wasn't through Columbia because they refused to release it. Then I made a deal with Geffen Records, which is where

What was it about the Black Crows that excited you to sign them to the label? Did you sign all the acts that were at least on the first run of Deaf Americans to the label or was it like, did you have a full staff and.

You know didn't. I didn't have a full staff. But there was my friend who I went to school with named George Treculius, who who's been called out on a Beastie record.

Maybe well, he's also been my boss the few movies that I scored.

George.

If you're clearing music in movies, Georgia Koliac, is that that's your guy that you work with?

Okay, great? So George was he was an inter. It's funny. I was an intern at Deaf Jam when I owned Deaf Jam at NYU. And the reason I was an intern was because then I got school credit for working at Deaf Jam. George was. George was my intern at Deaf Jam where he got credit in the dorm, and then there was a time when he was my roommate in the dorm if I remember correctly. And George he found the Black Crows and that was his both his signing and his production. That was his vision and the

Told me that. Wow, I didn't know that.

Hey, wait all these old Deaf jam questions are coming back to me now. The the storyline to crust groof how much of that was actual life. I'm trying to get to the kind of uncut Jim's robbing Peter to pay Paul narrative of like did you guys ever have Like that's the storyline of having to borrow money to press up twelve inches or to keep up with demand.

That's holly Hollywood fakery. That's none of that.

Okay, just check it, just check it. Yeah.

So outside of Deaf American recordings, can you talk about your your your work with with Johnny Cash and how you got him back to his glory point, because I mean, I would imagine before you two worked together he was sort of waning in the creative department at least, like with the last four records that he worked on with you. That was like probably one of the best storied comebacks in a music career.

What was it like working with him?

Coolest thing, coolest thing that ever happened in my life. He was a beautiful brilliant, humble, interesting, quiet guy who studied history. He had a tremendous amount of wisdom that he didn't offer unless you drew him out. He was pretty reserved, but if you asked him about stuff, he would tell you about it. And he knew a lot about a lot of things, and a tremendous amount about music and the history of country music and folk music. And I learned a tremendous amount being around him.

Did you get a chance to personally know him? Like was he telling you stories of recording for Son and that whole million dollar session thing and everything you ever wanted to know?

And he would I got to know him personally well. He would stay at my house when he came to LA I would say, at his house if I went to Nashville. I don't know how much we talked about old times unless there was a specific reason to her. If I had a particular interest, he would tell me stories about about Sam Phillips. Though, okay, oh wow, he loved Sam Phillips.

Which artist opens up to you the most as far as uh, I don't know if you have the same relationship with say A jay Z that you would with Anthony Keatis So I know there's different degrees of getting to know your clients as you're producing them. And I know there's an an artist producer trust that has to be established, but I know there's different degrees of that of like which artists I mean, And this is not asking what's your favorite artist you've worked with, but who's

Is that the mars? Well, the guys? Is it?

I feel like I'm friends with a lot a lot of them. I'm just thinking if there are any unique standouts, I would say the people who I've made the most albums with. That plays a role, just because you're around them more, you know, it's just more hours together.

Yeah.

So, like I've been around the Chili Peppers a lot, so I probably know them better than somebody who I did you know a couple of songs with like jay Z. But I feel very comfortable when I hang out with jay Z. I feel like pretty good friends feels good.

I me just so close with Andrew Dice play though, I'm just saying I was.

I was pretty close with Dice. I would go out every night to the comedy store after my session, and we would hang out in the kitchen of the comedy Storre. Chris Rock would be there often also.

I mean with the Chili Peppers, how do you how do you see their growth as from where they were in nineteen ninety one. I'd assume that Blood Sugar, Sex Magic was the first time you work with them.

You didn't do Mother's Milk?

Correct, No, No, although I like I thought Mother's Milk was their best record to date. That was the Mother's Milk was the record that made me excited to work with them.

Okay, so how is it working with them and managing their you know whatever, you have to juggle to make it right as opposed to once they became more like a comfortable shoe that you were familiar with.

I'll say, I think it's the same. I don't think. I think the goal is always to treat people respectfully and honestly, and that happens regardless of how deep the relationship is. I don't I don't think that changes. It's pretty much the thing we're there to do looks the same either way. The only other thing that I'll say with the artists who I've made many records with another like System of a Down, I made all of their albums.

Filling each other out.

Yeah, like figuring out a vocabulary of how we're going to do it. But once that's established, it's much easier after that, but only only out of just that decoding, you know, decoding the system.

Do you prefer piecemeal projects as far as getting you know, they just say, look, I just want one song like you did one song on Justin Timberlake's record for Future Sex Sounds. Damn that sounds sex Love Sounds, Future Sex Magic Sounds.

I don't know.

As opposed to doing an entire album, what would you what do you prefer?

I really like making albums. I don't like doing songs because I think that the nature of the process to get to an album, to get to one song, or to get to an album could be the same amount of experimentation. Do you know what I'm saying? Like to find the voice. If you're working on one song, it takes just as long to figure out what that is. It may be longer because in a way, when you're working on one shot, you only got one shot and

Do you do you ever run into a situation in which where that trust isn't isn't there where you know an artist is stubborn, they feel that you know, well, you know. I'm giving a hypothetical example. I don't know, like if you can tell Adele okay, sing this shit again, give me take nine and she'll knock it out the part as opposed to again convincing the beastie boys that fight for your right is the song and trust me on this one?

Like how much trust me on this one?

End? Quote?

Do you have to go through in your post in your post def Jam post American Recordings career? It's like now in terms of like working with Neil Diamond or even James.

Blake, Yeah, most never, almost never trust me on this one. I don't like that. The goal is to And I always say at the beginning of a project, it's like everyone has to like it. Everyone here has to love it. If I love it and you don't love it, we failed. If you love it and I don't love it, we failed. It just means we haven't gone far enough if we don't all love it.

Have you ever had to walk away from a project.

I've never had to walk away, but I've been walked away on I'm not a quitter. I don't I don't quit projects. But there have been there have been a I can tell you. I can tell you about a couple. Okay, tell me we tried like I started an album with Crosby, Sills and Nash and ten years ago twelve okay twelve ten, about ten years ago, and it was a and there was a case of there being a lack of trust, but the lack of trust more had to do with themselves, well,

Album, like Jazzy Sank, like.

Very produced, adult, very adult.

A man he wanted, he want, he wanted his Grammy moment, and and I.

Just it wasn't. It wasn't so much as I don't feel like I quit. It was just like our visions were so different that it just no one was really interested. We didn't nobody wanted to make the same thing, so that one didn't happen. Yes, but considering how many albums I've made, I could count on one hand, less than one hand, how many times it has not worked out.

You mentioned a c DC, and I'm gonna forget this question.

Are are they do they have an iota or or are they even remotely aware of how much flick of the Switch has changed your life personally.

Other than what I told them, you know, I told I would tell them it's like their their music.

They have no idea that that one note has. Oh is that where it's from?

I don't even know. I just ran on.

No, no, I knocked the bells and just the the trademark Rick Rubin is okay. I always wanted to know.

I wouldn't even know. It's so funny. I wouldn't have even known that that's what it was. I just literally every time it's like, oh, I think it's on an ac DC record, and I just hunt through every track until I find something.

Something like that. Man, Okay, so El's sophomore record.

It's an interesting, unusual, unusual story. I don't believe I've ever told it publicly. At the time that I met Elle, he was being raised. His mom was in the picture, but he's mainly being raised by his grandmother, and he didn't know his dad. And then we made our first album together, and then he became cool J probably seventeen

Can you explain to me what exactly was your role in Jesus.

And in the life of Pablo, because it just to see the credits on the albums I'm just assuming that you're in a room with over twelve to twenty chefs and everyone's just throwing ideas in well, just based on looking at the album credits, like.

Exactly, it's not not exactly how it worked. Kanye built up the material over years for the for that what ended up being uses.

Okay.

When he first came he called me. He called me and said, hey, I want to come over and play you my new album. Okay, It's like great. He came over and we listened to three hours of music yo with almost no vocals, like just yes, and it's like wow, cool, it's like off to a good start. What do you know? What are you thinking you're going to you know, make you think you'll finish next year or something. He's like, it's coming out in three weeks, where I said what

Now.

Most of the artists I work with, we don't go into the studio until it's mostly all written, so it's a different it's a different experience, and that could happen in a much shorter time.

Wait, so did Kanye already have his verses written but they just weren't on on the tracks?

No? No, Well, it wasn't even clear what the songs were going to sound like or what was going to be on the album. It was a very wide range of songs and it was super cool. It was cool. I've come to learn that's the way he works. This was I never worked like that before, so it was unusual to me. To him, it was standard in the past. When I've said he wrote you know, half of the lyrics on the last two days, that like I'm saying he doesn't care about it. That's not at all the case.

Yeah, I was going to say, I remember whatever day that Yeesues came out, I remember texting you maybe like three days before, just on some okay, is it going to happen or not? Because I think they had a pushback date or whatever. There was like a day that I was supposed to come out and it didn't, and you were like, we're literally in the middle of trying to.

Wrap up right now.

And I was like, wait a minute, if you're in the middle trapping like doing it right now, then is the record pressed up? And like I'm thinking in terms of the old system where you had to turn it in three months ahead of time, factory all those things, and literally, well even with Pablo, you guys were still editing and changing it. And next thing I knew I had three different versions of the Pablo record because he just kept changing over again.

I remember when we finished Yesus and it came out about a week later. A week or two later, kind of came to the studio in Malibu and just we just started talking about what do you think's next, Like what do you think the next one's going to be like?

Yeah.

Yeah, So to just that his ability to see passworal just because that's the way it always is. That means the way it is. No, it's like, if I want to change it, I'll change it, and I'll change as many times as I want. It's like, it's incredible, blew my mind. Loved it.

Wow to me hearing hearing the Yesus record, and you know, I admit that I'd consume most of my music now via my iPhone and my computer, not in the same way that I would have, you know, twenty years ago, like put it in the stereoptics and yeah, that sort of thing. So first I was, I was the mix was just really harsh to me. And then once I heard it in Madison Square Garden with no drums, I mean, the thing was like, drums is almost non existent on

But uh, we listen. We listen at realistic levels. So in other words, if the thing we're making is meant to be heard loud, we listen to it loud. And we don't have giant speakers. We just use regular you know, like the monitors that would sit on the desk. We don't use big giant monitors. Okay, Kanye uses some some big ones with with that are much louder than the ones that we have in the studio that I always request it to be turned down because too much for me.

I see you're tenure for a while, you were president of Columbia records. Why did you decide to take a desk job and why, I mean, how how was the experience for that that that tenure as president of Columbia.

Uh, it was not a desk job, which is why I entertained. And my thought was the thing that I do on records has has very little to do with music. It's like my style of production. It would it would work regardless of whether it was music. It's like a way to look at things. It's a recontextualization of what

Wow?

And there were other people to do the desk work, and this was to be more of a helping curate the best artists, helping the artists make the best records that they can. Basically the same thing that I do, except on a bigger scale. And at the time we by the time right till the end there, Columbia Records went from sort of a not great roster to maybe the best roster in the business at that moment in time. The corporate politics of it were not something that suited

And will you ever establish a label? Well, I don't know there's a need to establish a label in twenty twenty. Well whatever the twenty twenty version of starting a deaf Jam or a Death American or Colombia, will you ever dive in that pool again? Are you fine with the zone that you're in right now?

If there are any acts that I want to work with which are few and far between, that I want to sign, then I have a relationship with Universal where I can sign an act and it'll be on American and it'll come out and I don't have to have a staff. It's like they do the record company part and I could be the creative partner, and that feels about right. I mean, if there was a reason to reinvent the label or help them get better, I'd be

I always wanted to ask you about sir mix a Lot Man, what led you, buddy? Yeah, shout my buddy Dan Charnis who.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah yeah.

And he brought up a real We had him on the show like when we first started, like a couple of years back, and he brought up a really interesting thing I never really noticed about you of like, he noticed you kind of tend to go for kind of nasally EMCs like ad Rod Mix a Lot, you know what I mean, They have that kind of similar tone. So I was scurious to know, like, what how did you find out about Mix a Lot and what led to you sign to him?

Uh?

Loved the record Posse on Broadway?

Yes, yes, well it was your record. No, well, no that I know this. This is all I'm saying.

And I'm so glad you brought this up, Fante, How did you I never as a Philadelphian, I feel guilty for not mentioning what your relationship to PSK was And by the transit of Vaxiom, how did you feel about the way the entire West Coast sort of ate up that particular style because that was with Sir mix a lot that was especially with the first n w A record.

Every song was.

Like it was practically the West Coast, Like, were you at all aware of the blueprint that license to ill gave to the entire coast?

Not really, I think, probably too close to to see. I also, you know, I come to realize later that Brass Monkey, like there was no such thing as Miami Base before Brass Monkey. So it's like it it led to a lot of different It had different tentacles that inspired people in different ways, No, no.

Doubt, man.

So it mixed a lot. How you like pasta on Broadway? And then how'd you go about it?

And I just reached out to him and said, hey, if there's ever an opportunity to work together, I would love to do it, and then ended up working out. He's like, well, I'm on my own label. I don't really want to do that now. But and then eventually he came around, He's like, Yep, I think I'm ready to do this. Let's do this by Baby American? Was that on American? Yes?

Oh okay, that was on That was on a mac Daddy album. Okay, and I and.

I can't remember. I've heard mix a lot say that I changed the tempo of it drastically in a way that he loves, but like that I heard it differently than he heard it. I don't really remember that, but that I've heard him say.

That, you're saying that you physically slowed it down.

I think I sped it up. They sped it up, but I'm not sure. I honestly I don't remember it at all. He would, he would know better than I.

I was gonna say.

Just back on your American stage, there was a record you signed that was. It really took me by surprise that you signed them, because it was unlike anything that you would ever sign or work with before.

Uh, the record the nots were ultimate. I don't know if you remember American.

Yeah, that was. That was a Dan Charnas signing. That was a.

Ship and I forgot yep. Of course Bad Lad too. Is that dance as well?

I think so?

Damn yes, Okay, I totally forgot about this too.

So with your A and RS, you just pretty much let them kind of do them. Just like if y'all like it, y'all believe in it, I'll fuck with it, Like, what was your role.

In it was?

It was a combination. It's like if they were really passionate, either I had to like it too. Or if they were really passionate, it's like this is the one. The whole idea of having more A and R people was not just find stuff for me. It was like if someone really was in love with something, then it was exciting to see what could happen. And it worked out in the case of the if you like those records that Dan signed, and if you liked the Black Crows that George signed, then it worked.

I got one more music question before I ask you my last question, because we could be twelve hours working. Well, I know that you produced, and I'm a big fan of the Strokes. I know that you worked on the New Abnormal. First of all, did that title come up in very last minute? No, in relation to where we are now, because that sort of a apropos title did not.

It just it was a title that Julian came up with the pre pre virus, and it's again just sort of the universe conspiring to make the art right.

I'm assuming that they recorded out in Hawaii with with you. We recorded in Malibu, Okay, which I think is kind of different than all the studios that they previously recorded their music in. So how hard was it to get the well oiled machine of what the Strokes represented, especially in the early arts.

And I know there was so much pressure on them to.

Be the next big thing in quotes like how much of that was on their minds making this record because I can only assume that they took a ten year hiatus because of the pressure of living up to something that they couldn't sort of jump over, a hurdle that they couldn't match or whatever.

Well, I think that the first record they put out was there considered their like breakthrough. That was the one, that's the one that sort of lit everything up. And yeah, the second album, the second album seems like it didn't change the world, but continued that and then since then it's been more hit and miss. So I don't think they felt a tremendous I don't I didn't get the

And if that's a no from you, is does that filter to them that oh shit, this might be bad.

I don't know.

I just I just said I don't think this is right for me. I don't I don't see how to do this. And then on this album they sent me demos and these were probably the worst quality demos I've ever gotten from any artist, in that one track might be a thirty second voice note on the phone, like real, very very basic, like thumbnail sketches, and I listened to that these and it's like, Oh, this is going to be great. We got to make this. It's like I

So is that the beginning of working with you, Like one has to send the roughest sketch of a song before you can see the light to see how you can develop it. Or does everyone do the Kanye thing where it's damn near complete it and then you just you can add the finishing touches to it.

There's no rule. There's no rule.

It's like, have you ever built an album from the ground up? Like okay, songwriting.

Less songwriting sessions, but like with the Chili Peppers, I would come to rehearsals pretty early on. We would probably go through they might they might have written one hundred songs for every album we did, and we would talk about him and narrow him down, and what was it about under the Bridge that attracted you? The way that it happened was just based on the lyric. It was a lyric that I found in Anthony's book of poetry. And I asked him what song is this and he said,

Is there an act that you never with the exception of Bill Withers and I know the stories of you pursuing them, Is there an act that you would have liked to have worked with it you never got a chance to live alive or not alive, or disbanded or not disbanded.

Well, obviously Beatles or led Zeppelin or any of the like.

Has McCartney ever approached you about producing a record or fish Bone or you.

Know, yeah, I met with McCartney and talked about making something has not yet happened, but you never know.

I would be interested to see how that works.

What made you settle down into the podcast world and was it the allure of doing it with Malcolm Gladwell and hitlerm or like why do you?

Why is that now another part of your Wait?

Can I give a small preface for this question? So I did your very first podcast?

Correct?

Was that something like that?

One of the one of the.

Preson is like the pilot?

But yeah, maria'rer in there, Okay.

I literally had no idea what I was walking into because you know, sometimes my business being just a little bit yanky. So I was I was on my way to the studio thinking I was doing a QLs episode because it was the same studio wherever we interviewed Heather Hunter or that jazz studio that Steve recommended. I got there and I was like, oh shit, I'm here to do a QLs episode with Malcolm Gladwell. And then I

Just winged it in.

About twenty minutes into it, I realized, oh, I'm here.

I got to read my emails better. I'm here to do That's.

The interview you got to prepare for right in me here like be an interviewed by at least those two.

Sometimes I fly out the seat.

You know, we're just freestyling a podcast show and having no clue what I'm there for and just getting lucky. So when I did their episode, I literally went to that building thinking it's a Malcolm Gladwell episode A Quest Loove Supreme. And then when I saw Rick Rubin's face on the television thing because he did it by monitor, I was hella confused.

I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? I had to run in the other room and like call it, wait, what am I doing? You're doing someone's fun. I didn't do this, so, but.

Yeah, talk about why you even chose to put that.

Into I was friendly with Malcolm and I loved his podcast, Revisionist History, and he told me he had an idea to do a new podcast around music and asked if I would be interested in being involved. And I thought I'm a fan of his work. Be fun. It's like, dude, something with Malcolm I wouldn't have normally. I probably wouldn't have chosen to do a music podcast on my own at that time, just because I feel like talk about

Yeah, it seems like y'all don't ever have to worry about guests. So I was I was kind of cramming, and I was listening.

To Andre episode.

I was just about to say, like, yeah, that was like say, especially.

When y'all talked about like beyond moments.

We were had made a note about that and the moments that are just beyond, and you were talking about how just these moments in your life where it's like if you did not do one thing, these other things wouldn't happened, Like if you would have stayed in Chicago.

Chicago, right, bab we were listening together.

Yeah, we we have a lot of mutual friends in common.

So just hearing of your evolution, your spiritual evolution, your physical evolution. You know, you've been definitely kind of a life goal mission for me at least where you are with your life and everything, like what's your daily routine and I know like surfings played.

A part of it and all that stuff.

In Kawai. Now, I've been doing a ninety minute walk every morning on the beach barefoot, a lot of sun and listening to podcasts that ninety minutes. That's where I listen to you. If I listen to one of your pieces, it'll be while I'm walking on the beach. And that's the very first thing every day, and I get that out of the way and then I can start focusing on work or whatever else there is to do for

Facts, that's me.

And if I wait an hour, not only will I won't do it, I'll eat.

You do something, Yeah, you do some funds I'll.

Definitely eat because if I'm sitting around and I'm hungry, if I'm walking for ninety minutes, I'm not thinking about food because I'm involved in the podcast or book on tape and I'm walking and enjoying myself and my mind is completely occupied because I'm very you know, I listen to things that I'm interested in and learn stuff, and

Yeah. What has quarantine been like for you? Rick?

What is what changes quarantine like? Just kind of how we're in quarantine now and kind of be in lockdown. What has that been like for you?

It hasn't changed so much other than the fact that we're in Kawhi because normally we wouldn't normally be in Kawhi now, we'd be in Malibu. But because Malibu is locked down. Kauhi is lockdown too. We were here in over the holidays and we were going back to start. I was going back to start new Avitt Brothers album first week of March, and then I got a call days before saying, hey, stuff's getting sketchy. We're thinking maybe we should just stay home. And it's like, perfect, I'm

How severe is it in Hawaii right now?

As far as there are no cases on the island, which is unbelievable, there's no There are seven islands of Kawaii there, you know, half hour flight apart, but this yeah, this one has none.

And Kawaii has like a lower population.

Yes, it's very few people and they're far apart, and it's a great place to be on quarantine. Again. We if we weren't here, I don't think we would have come here for it, But the fact that we were here and the opportunity arose seemed like a good choice. The universe again was smiling on us.

These two are those those dogs I saw you once with the dogs with the mop.

Heads I have won. His name is Champa. I had two before him named The current dog's name is Yellow. The two prior where Champa and Monday. Chump and Monday passed away at eighteen nineteen years old. And now Champa is Monday's brother, brother's son. I think so in the family, and he's probably twelve now.

It wasn't a pack of him, I could have sworn. I seen like a family of them. I had you before, and now I have one.

I saw one and then the other one. The other would follow wherever one would go, Okay, I remember that.

Yeah.

I want to know, man, do you still when you're working out your ideas? Are you like still making tracks or does it start on an instrument?

How do you flesh out the ideas that you may have.

It really depends. I don't. I don't do it for the sake of doing it. So it's more like if there's a reason to make something, if there's a from working on a project that needs a piece of music that needs to start with me, which I'd prefer not to do. I like. I like elaborating. I like hearing something and finding pieces that I could make into the thing that I want to make as opposed to starting from scratch. I have to start from scratch. I can,

Yeah, are you using like Ableton or like what software?

We usually do everything in pro Tools, although it's still you know, just still out of you know, I don't know any better and I don't know how to run pro Tools. I don't really I'm not a technical person at all. I just can say I like it, like this, let's change this beat.

When you take on a project, do you stay on that project or are you able to hop from project to project? Like Okay, I'm gonna work with Chili Peppers at the studio on Monday and then run to do the Dixie Chicks next week over there and blah blah blah, like or are you stay? I do you?

You hire me?

And we If it's over three months, then we're in trouble, Like how do you schedule.

The first one? Because it's I don't think it's possible to say, we're going to put three months on hold, and in that three months, we're going to make the best album the world has ever heard. I don't. I don't. I don't believe in that. I don't believe it's possible. Maybe some people can do it, I don't know. I don't know how that works. So every project has its own rhythm, and as I said, sometimes it happens very quickly.

Life lessons one and only life lessons.

Rick Rubin, don't make it about you and walk the first thing in the mornings.

I don't want the process to be.

Ugly for you.

See that's the one thing because you know who downstairs always says, See, Rick Rubin walks early in the morning, and you don't do it.

So now I'm gonna have to wake my answer up at six in the morning.

You wake up, your first thing is just doing because I'll create a bunch of excuses. I have to get up at six and walk. All right, thank you, Rick. I will now reach my goal of two twenty pounds. I'm gonna walk because Rick said, Because Rick said so.

Anyway, Rick, dude, this is this has been what like four years in the making.

Yes, exactly, Shout out today, Shout out today.

I have a suggestion quest, which is every day for the next let's make it three weeks. When you go on your walk, just send me a message at the end saying I walked this along today, just a little check in like, Hey, I did this today.

Accountability, I will do so. Yes, just about accountability.

I'm about accountability, and I'm about integrity, life coach. Yes, about integrity. Two twenty is right around the bin. I'm ready for this shit.

Thank you, and send a group text to all of us and we'll go Yeah, we finished ours too.

You're going to be a sleep all right. So on behalf of uh Rick Rubin.

Yes on, behalf of Sugar Steve On, pay bill by Vroon Tigelow and be great incomparable Rick Rubin. Four years We've been dying for this. My name is Qus Loved. This is plus Love Supreme. We will see you on the next around.

Thank you Must Love Supreme.

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