Questlove Supreme: Raphael Saadiq Part 1

right in East Suckland Hating Hospital. I'm born and raised. The rest of my family is from Louisiana, from Louisiana, Sweet Port, Louisiana. And I'm the only out of fourteen, I'm the only city slicker that was born in the city. Wait, you have thirteen other siblings? Yeah? Are you the year of the baby? A baby boy? But I have a sister that's younger than me. What is it that like in the household? Well, everybody wasn't the household. It was it was a little bit of your dad. It's a

little bit of that. But we were like, uh, my father has some kids before he married my mom, before he's my mom and then you know my brother Duayne, he had a different mother, So me and Dwayne have different mothers. Okay, got you bind the family? Yeah? Is the entire family musically inclined or just you and Duayne? No, uh, it's a few of us. My brother Randy, as you probably heard him seeing on a record called Holy Smokes and Gee whiz Y. That's that's the real talent in

the in the family. We were all like an afterthought when he came to music. We just kind of snuck in there a little bit. Where does Randy fall into the bruce? He's like the He's like the fourth from the oldest. He's like another brother named Alvey Wiggins. Who's uh he's saying country music. Charlie Pry was his favorite uh uh singer. So he was a country singer, but he was he was a street thug though he he

was a real hardcore He was not no thunk. He was a classy like gangster, you know what I mean. But he was he's saying country music. Yeah, this explains a lot of your wait, where does where does that? Where does Dwayne fall in line with you? Wayne's Dwayne is we had another brother in between me and Duanne named Desmond. Desmond was the drummer in the family, and

Desmond passed away when I was seventeen years old. And the Wayne is the older than him, one a couple of years older than Desmond, So Dwayne would be Dwayne would be like the six youngest boy. Okay, that's confused, And actually I started thinking about it like that. I'm like totally confused. Okay, So I know Thanksgiving and Christmas has been hell of crazy. Yeah, it was actually good because you know, it's just a lot of music in the house and a lot of Teddy. You know, my

step mom loved Teddy Pendergrass and Osley Brothers. So that's where we that's where our guitar stuff comes from because we get to stay outside as long as we could. If you know, if they if they was having a little party, but in the house, it will be Teddy Pendergrass and it'd be uh Osly brother So this is the first time I got a chance to say ship

was on Fight to Power Fun Parents. What what is your actual first musical memory that you I think for me, I was like a kid who like who had you know, you know, you have to be outside playing with individuals and your friends and I'm not really great friends and um, but I think mine was when I first got my first UM based amplifier. I had this uh unifox and I had a copy fended jazz called the Orlando, and I opened up the case and I thought it was real fur. I thought I was rich because I had

this basic guitarist fur. It was this fur inside of it. That was my first musical experiment experience really, And then I played trump. I played first trumbone and jazz man too, So I wanted to play saxophone, but they I wanted to play saxophone but didn't have anymore. What ages this again? This isn't just in grade school? Well, grade school I was just starting to play. But by the time I got to high school, I sat in the first chair playing trumbone. Okay, So I mean, what what is it

like to grow up in Oakland? Um? Kind of watching? You know, at least from my point of view. You know, the legend of Oakland is it's slid on the family Stone and Graham Central Station and Taro Power and all all these like powerful musicians that are making like you know, they're international stars. Like what kind of impression is that

leaving on you? For me, it was it was everything because we're basically a Larry Graham was more of the idol for for me because I'm a bass player, right but right, so, you know, like one block you would have, you know, a band plan and it was a band in every garage everywhere we looked. It was like Natty Natalie Cole had a band that was played in Oakland. So when they were off and not touring, they would

be playing in the garage. So Willie Wild who played with Graham, Central Station, and we would see like you know, Larry Graham and Um, you know, riding through the neighborhood on the Harley Davidson and then slide. That was their thing, rides like Harley's, like the Choppers, the Short Choppers, and so they were like our comic books characters for us because I saw all we knew was like it was almost like a like MCS, like Rappers. It was like

Battle the Bands. It was Battle Battle Rappers, Battle Battle of the Band's Battle Base players. If you couldn't play like um the jam or the Son called pile on the base, how I got you that's a head country and going to rock. I got that you will get yours wrong. I mean everybody in our neighborhood. Everybody in our neighborhood to play base, our our guitar or drums. So I was about ten or eleven. You were walking into a garage and the band was playing. Somebody would say, hey,

my little brother could play bass. So you you couldn't really get on the base unless you knew how to play pile, because somebody was gonna test you out. They were gonna that was gonna say, and you play pile and then you have to do like this, like yeah, as soon as you say yes, they only give you two seconds before the drummer just kick it off. Wait a minute. This is how I knew you're a special individual. Literally last week. Last week the roots like did our

like our first run in in like eighteen months. And so I don't know how, but I think, uh, one of the one of these songs from star Walk came on.

I think it was Sneaky Freak, and my band was asking me about it, and the way I was putting it to them was I was like, I don't know how to accurately judge Larry Graham's cannon because I know, like hit wise, you know, the first three gram Central Station albums were like national hits like up until Ain't no about to doubt it, but somehow it got a little weird around not or Mirror was like a hit. I remember that being a hit when I was a kid. But it's something about now do you want to dance?

And my radio sounds good to me? And the star Walk album albums that didn't have hits on them, but every from Prince to every musician I know, they swear by those three records. And we were watching Graham Central Station do pow last week and we were kind of I was I was laughing because I was like, I know this is good, but it wasn't a hit. So I'm trying to figure out, like, am I the only one that got this song? And you mentioned so you're saying to me in Oakland that song is a writer

of passage to everybody. I mean, I mean you could walk up to a guy in Oakland and I have a friend named Lord Nell and I didn't know this, and um and um, he's just one day he asked me what I know about Larry Graham and I'm like looking at him like what this dude. All this dude say, he's a security guy stand quin in prison. That's all I know about him. He just goes but they'll smoke a mama, And I'm like so and Oakland and and oh Glinn, Larry is bigger than then this slid. Larry

is like Larry is like um. When I was a kid, I went I was going on the snow trip and Tahoe and I went to buy some mittens like ten or eleven. And I was walking the store called Lungs Drugs. It's in Saliandro and I walk in the store. I walk in the grocery store in Larry Graham and Chockolate is getting out of a black Thunderberg suicide doors with the wig on, with the album released. How they looked and release yourself when they're in the air jumping up

to sitting there is that Larry Graham. Wo So I started following him around the grocery store, looking through boxes and and everything. So before he walks out, I run out and said at the bus stop right in front of the store. But I'm not looking back at him. I'm just looking at the street. So Larry and Chocolate walk up to me in front of bus stop and look dead at me and go how are you doing? And I'm like freaking out, Like it's like a Star Wars moment for me. I should not go like and

I go, are you Larry Graham? He was like, yeah, I'm Larry Graham. It's a chocolate And I was like freaking out. Bro. So yeah, he was like a superhero to us. But Pop, you have to answer your question. How the jam David dynamite? But what about earthquake? Earthquake? Um? They were trying to destroy their base with the towel

and all that stuff that year. And if you listen to sit today the song today, right, So we used to sit in the room as kids and just sit by the turntable and wait for that bill to go off. Every time we let somebody hear that song, we would never let them leave for the first time into the bell rings all the way out. When I let D'Angelo here today for the first time, I made D'Angelo listened to it, to the bill win all the way off, because that's how we kind of grew up. Everybody had

to listen to the bill the first time. Dog, what's rain for? Like? What three minutes. That's what I was For those who don't know about the song, he's saying for three minutes. You know, I'm also hating that I'm having this conversation because I think I was ready to just dismiss it because one of the one of the one of the playlists that I have or my Spotify is called Songs and and E Minor and Songs and

the Minor that I hate. I know for bass players like E Minor is like a rite of passage key, but for me, it's like unless you're trying to top the Jam or shigning Star or thank you for let Me be Myself like or or a song like Glide, like I almost feel like that's such a taboo key for bass players. But yet like the amount of songs that I hear people trying to attempt to to hop that Jump, that Cliff that film and Louise Cliff and

they never make it. Now now you got me, Like, now I gotta go back and reconsider that just because it's it means something in Oakland. That's that's very true. I mean, I mean I can't I've never I don't think I've ever wrote a song that was worth anything any Minor. I care from Oakland. I don't think you is that even on purpose, Like I just don't think. I just don't every time I don't. I heard, I mean I heard through the grapevine that you know, um through one of my friends. Um she does does she

does that. She has a podcast What what What? Most Steps? Mom? Um and UM erica' connor and and she talked to you spoke to your mom, I think, and they said you had perfect your mom's that you have perfect pitch as a kid. Yeah, so I only have perfect pitch for a natural because of Larry Graham. Wow. Anything past that, I'm done. You tell me because I played every every Graham song and I could just now I know where I'm Yeah, I mean I based all my things on

whatever the song is. You know, like if you say b Minor, I just instantly think, don't stop the year enough. If you say it's also based on the print of Michael Jackson's on g I'm like, oh, that's shake your body down to the ground, So it's not. And even I spoke to Billy Graham one time I was hanging outside of Oakland collis in. I think you meant Reverend Billy Graham. I'm like, well, no, Bill Graham, the proter, the promoter. He saw me trying to sneak in this concert.

He left me in the concert and he's said, are you musician? I said yes, And he says, what do you? What do you play outside of play bass? Who's your favorite musician? I said Larry Graham. He said Larry would be much better if you stopped making battle records and so and by him saying that, who know I was gonna be ever making records? I didn't know. I never tried to be a singer or anything. I just want to play in the band. I never wanted to be a singer. I never wanted to be a lead singer.

I just wanted to play for a band and work at a record store. That was probably it. And um, but once he said that I started making music, it always stayed in my head. Never tried to be a battle band trying to make records. That makes sense because even his songs were about how good of a band we are and you'll never get to this level of perfection that I'm iNTS to battist group from East to West. What was it like the first time you got Larry

Graham's ere for real. When when I first got his yere, I was I was at Eddie Murphy's house and he was hanging out with Eddie Murphy and I'm like wow. So he was just yeah, he was hanging out in the garage. It was just me and him in the garage, and I was like, Okay, when am I going to break this to this dude? Did I've been like the stalking my whole life and I'm because we're talking on some creeens, just real cool, and I was just like, forget it. Here we go. We're sitting in the garage

next to some jet skis. I said, hey, man, I grew up in Oakland. I was in a band with your son, Derek Graham and um in my high school band. He was like really, I said, yeah, man, I played bass, so I didn't have a bass on me. I had an acoustic. So I tried to play something on acoustic that was his and it just didn't work. Tony didn't mean anything to him at that time. He I think he knew about the Tonys, but he didn't know when

I played bass. Remember, nobody thought I was like everybody dance, you know, Nobody knew that I was only made to play Base because when we first came out, there were no bands out and and everybody wanted us to be like, you know, we had to compete with Guy and everybody was out. So I had to put the base down and had to become this other thing. So nobody really knew me for playing bass, which I felt like Lioness and Charlie Brown like, I put down my security blanket,

which was what's what's my base? That made me feel very manly and tough and made me feel all these different things. So when I put it down and became and had to sing, I wasn't really confident about singing, so he would have no way of knowing that I was a bass player even though I played. I played all the records on the base on based on the Tony's album Wow. Got Graham in my studio and Blastlee and he came over and I got on the base, and I completely cannot play base in front of Ground.

It hasn't worked yet. Everything on I tried to play, I was like bro for some reason, it just stopped working right now, so I just left it alone. But when he leaves, I'm like killing it. You got mine control over Larry Graham. Yeah, stop talking, Yeah we we. He played on my album, like two albums ago. We did a slung together it's a hiding track and I played guitar and Rob Bacon play guitar and he played bass and he played right in front of me, and

I was just sitting there. I was playing guitar, like this is crazy. And still you ain't playing bass in front of him. Damn wow. I think I sat in front of Slide and um Slide and and and George Clinton maybe two times, and this is weird. Every time I get around Slide it's weird too. I kind of just staring Slide and I have to leave because I'm like this dude is like right. I just kind of walked out and George says, George told Slide he said, uh, he said, yeah, boy did. He said, that's the answer

to you right here in Oakland. It's me. He said, that's about me. And I was sitting there looking at them because I'm friends with his daughter, and I was like, all this greatness in the room, George and the Slot. It was actually sitting in the mobile home in front of Eddie Murphy's house for two hours, and so Eddie goes, who is that in that in that mobile home? And I goes and you' nobody was uh uh slide slide, And George and Eddie started laughing. But I knew it

was them. They just sat in the in the in the in the mobile home for two hours before they walked in. What was they doing? You know? This was this is no longer getting this is maybe four or five years ago. Okay, gee yeah, yeah, he together, man, I can see all this for hours. We gotta push a little bit. Um. Before you started the group, I know that you you you cut your teeth, uh playing with bands, and I know that why I knew of you because of your association with Sheila. But what acts

were you playing with? Was she like like the first national act that you got to and how that situation happened? Was there anyone before that? No? Really before that, I was I was playing locally. Um that really started to Tony's. I played a lot of local bands and I played I played for the Hawkins family a bit. Yeah. Joel Smith was sort of my um my idol bass player. He passed away one of the best bass players in the world and drummers and Um, besides you. You you're

probably my one of my best favorite basing drummers. I tell everybody said one thing about Quest. No bass player can hey on Quest. If you play bass, you should just murder him. Because the kids una understand that I had is It's like what I used to look for as a kid. I would knock on if I hear a drummer in the house, I would knock on the door and say, hey man, I'll play bass. That's how I grew up. So I started playing with the Hawkins family.

I played with the Nette Hawkins. I played with Shirley Miller, I played with Vanessa Bill Armstrong, and then I started playing with Sheila and eight six audition. Levi caesar Um got me the gig. He called me and said, you know you want auditioned for Sheiley and Eddie six audition And we went on on the Cherry Moon tour in Japan, and when Lisa was still playing with where in Japan? Well the way that he fired the revolution After Purple Rain, it finally made the Internet. It's it's the Clippers on

the Internet. But there's a moment where Wendy and Lisa say they knew that they knew the band was over. He took the cloud guitar and and destroyed it on stage, walked off stage, came back, did another solo, and then destroyed that Cloud guitar. And then when they and Lisa and Bobby looked at each other and it's like, yeah it's over, it was over. So yeah, it was pretty

It was pretty much over on that tour. But you know, like I said, I was like eighteen years old, so I just had a good time hanging out with Like Cobby was a sound guy, um round Mark. I used to get play out of his rig and and because the band was breaking up, Prince would use us to play all the after gigs. So I would play like You Need Another Lover or the whole album. Um every club Prince would call us to play instead of them.

Is that why one of our listeners asked me to ask you about the opportunity to be in Princess band. Was it from them? Well, I was. I was gonna be an original band from Madhouse, the group called Madhouse joint right. It wanted to be in being a band called Madhouse. But when we heard the band was going be wearing like mask over their face, which would have could have been dope. We had already sort of formed because at the time it was me and Tim to him.

Tim Riley who played with the Tony's, he was a drummer and Um, I got the gig first, and then Sheila was like, don't bring back a drummer. I brought to him back anyway, he auditioned and and my friend Carl Wheeler, he played keyboards, and all three of us went. We rehearsed for like two months, fifteen hours a day. Prince hired us to play for it because he was paying the bills basically, and I was seeing his parts

in Erotic City. He would say stuff to me. But the first time he walked up to us, he he walked up to us with a yellow suit on, and they came and he walks out and he goes, um, what's your name? And you know, everybody said he name, and then he goes, Hi, Prince. We're looking like, oh ship, I mean we're in the middle of this, We're in the middle of the stadium, like all this sound. I've

never heard this much power before. Because when we came out, it was like when he came out, he would come out around the world in the day and the curtains would just be that the Yeah, And so I was sitting I was sitting in a baseball dugout, which is a folded like makes a folded cat movie, so you can hear all the base and I'll just say the Revolution was the best band he ever had, except you know, I wish you, you know, death Daz would have been there. Yeah,

that was it. That was pretty much at school high school. I played in jazz band, I played for choirs, I played gospel, I played funk, I play every club there was. And then it was then right off the back, it was Prince and she like, look, I feel like this is probably the only time I me get the opportunity to ask you. And you know, I'm a print head, but you already mentioned the Hawkins family, and I just

literally like, I, what is what is that circuit? Like like that whole hospool circuit in in in the Hawkins. Was it Walter or Edwin? It was Walter at this at this time, it was more Walter that Edwin is the pioneer who you know kind of produced that the version of Old Happy Days because that's really an old song, but he actually reproduced it his way, But honestly, playing for playing for like the Hawkins family for us was

that's equivalent to like Tower power in Oakland. You know we had Tower power then we had the Hawkins family and they were the whole circuit. They were the whole gamute. If you want to play gospel, that was the biggest god. Besides you know, if you go down a little south, you've got Andre Crouch. Did you play with Crouch at all? No? No, justink my I'm a huge fan and I listened to him like every every week. I listen to Dre Crouch. But it's it's a big circuit. It was. It was

great music every Sunday morning every week. Uh. Right next to to my high school was Love Centers First Church where they recorded like follow Me in all these records. So we would go to we would go to lunch and we will listen to Joel Smith and Um Johnson the boast rehearse at lunchtime. What yeah, How was the money's gospel money? How's gospel money? As a teenager in a band, how's the gospel money? Man? Let me tell you something. I'm never worried about no money in the

music industry till now wait what now, I donunderstand. I don't understand how much I love music. I made money being an artist now, but I play so many gigs because I love music. You know, whatever money I got Oakland, Hey man, if he wasn't getting murdered or killed when you wake up, everyone else is extra. I mean, we used to. We had our sound managed to cost the Tony's. Our sound managed to cost us a hundred and fifty dollars, and we was making a hundred and fifty dollars playing

the clubs we just had. We just got rid of the idle time that we didn't need to be hanging out in the street because we were. We pretty much just not no band. Dudes, if you're in Oakland, you gotta do Oakland things too. When to you know, til you get done with doing Oakland things? Okay? Since Too Short was on the show and he kind of outed himself as a nerd disguise as a gangster, we what

was I mean, how did how did you? Because I'm I'm thinking that that life chooses you like you don't have a choice to say I'm not going to do that or I will do that, because I feel like that life chooses you, like, you don't have a choice but to walk past this corner and past this group and either get jumped in or beat down whatever. Like, how did you avoid what I know to be Oakland?

Because Oakland is probably want to be Rasies. I mean the Bay Area in general, especially when we first started going there, like in the nineties, so I know that in the eighties and in the seventies. I mean, you're you're forever gonna look thirty six, So I don't know how old you are, but I know although you look

like old as hell? What was it I avoided? Because you know, like I have a lot of families from Chicago, a lot of family in Chicago on the South Side and the West Side, and and you know, your your parents on the phone, you're hearing about everything just happened to your family. And also with all those brothers and sisters. I lost three brothers and sisters. On one of my

brothers committed suicide. One of my brothers, Alvi got was murdered, and my other's sister hit by a car some cop running from a kid, uh a kid running from a copy this car or kill my sister at permanent brain damage. It when you see trauma like that, you know, and you've My father would say to me all the time. He was like, if you see somebody um when my brother killed himself because he couldn't get off dope. So my father was saying, if you see somebody shooting the

gun and wrapid rapid fire, what you're gonna do? At this point, I was so young, I don't even know what rapp it men. And I said, I'm gonna turn around and go the other way. That's what I'm talking about. He was just so frustrated. And he also said, if you know, when you go to jail, it's a very difficult thing. Down there is a system. It's hard to understand. And you know, so when I do know one thing,

they give you one phone call. So I if you go to jail, I think you should call somebody to understand that system because I don't know anything about it. And that's what KEPT mean, I'm not coming for you. And my father wasn't only want to carry a pocket

full of money, a water full of money. So with that, and and how much I love music, I will I'll say that you know instrumentation musicians like earth wind and Fire, and you know even like the mom was, the pop was all the music I used here in Berkeley and San Francisco, and the hippie stuff that I used to here in all the gospel. It really saved my life.

So when I when I run into people like Rest in Peace, like Maurice White, and I see Verdine and those guys, I just tell them you basically saved my life about making great music because it kept me in my room making music, making music. But on the other side, I felt like my life was like the the narration of the movie City of Gods. Like I was with I was like the kid with the camera. I had a moped and I would ride around Oakland. I would

witness some murderers because I was everywhere. I would see stuff. I would keep going and I would be listening to in my headphones and my Sony walking in with a cassette. I'll be listening to Ronnie run to Russia. Ron didn't run to the Russia before It's too late, you know, But that nobody knew what I'd be listening to. And um so between the hood of everybody listening to Needy

and Funkadelic and everything, my neighborhood was listening. My neighborhood was big on funkadelic, right, So I think the music sort of like you said, the street is the street. The streets could be your father and your mother. But my father was my father, my mother was my mother, and music was like my god. Parents. Can I have the word, because um, I know most parents I know well sort of drift towards safety more than pursuing a dream.

So assuming that you know you're that you were passionate about your your your musical pursuits were your parents and like encouraging and nurturing on that end, or were they just like nah boyd like go to post office, get a job. Like my mother was like get you fifty years in over at the Highland Hospital and you're my age, you can retire. Uh. My father was a little bit um. My father could play guitar a little bit. He could

see my dad kind of seeking like Sam Cook. But my dad was just like I used to work in you you know, in the parcel for for a minute, I had all kind of like I had jobs. I was doing landscaping. It was another like you couldn't be at my house and and tell somebody you're gonna be a start and leave me alone. That ship was not

gonna lie. So uh, I think my father told me when I told him I got this gig, he just told me said, hey, if you want to, if you could, because everybody was saying, you know, church people, you're going to here because you're playing R and B, and my dad would stay son the church KYFG is the same key as R, R and B, the same KYRG. If you don't, if you want to, if that scares you, I got some work for you at it's a naval air you know, if you've been come and work here.

But other than that, I just I think I got a job playing this gig at this club called Lucky Lion with this band. And I told my father because I bust my fingers at ups, I bust three of my fingers on the conveyor belt and then my nails came right off. I quit because I didn't want to. You know, they had these safety working days, and if you're ringing the bell, you mess up the whole staff safety working days. I tried to hold it for a minute, but when the nails came out hit the alarm, called

my dad and said, I got this gig. I wanna do this gig up and my dad said, well, don't tell your mom. Do not tell your mother. If you need some money, call me. And I never had to call him because I had those little undred fifty dollar gigs. But my mother didn't find out that I quit that job until she saw me on the Tonys on arseni or Hall Wow, And what did she say? She did? My mother didn't know I could sing. She she know, she knew, she saw me kind of thing. Unf I mean,

but that's not Nobody knew I could sing. Nobody in my high school because I was singing at home. You don't mess around. But my mother didn't realize that I wasn't working at you ups until she turned to Arsenio on it was Tony Tony an Tony and I was all, you know, going for it, dog, yo, man, you don't even know between between your love of pal and that story. No one believes me when I tell my dad wanted to say that my dad didn't know about the Roots

until our our second album. They're like, yeah, yeah, you hide that ship yo, Wow hid you can't. It's none of that. Come on, when I got a dream or what wowdream? What a dream he won college and he wasn't having that like just hang with that, Tarik. No, you go sa that insurance that Tarik believe that hold him right. Um, around eighties six, I know that. Um. You know Foster McElroy produced the first Tony record. But

what was what was like the relationship? Did you guys have any runnings with like j King the club New Vot Click. Yeah. Well I lived in Sacramento for after I moved out of Oakland. I came back off the tour by first tour after the eight my mom had moved to Sacramento. I came into my house and it said we moved to Sacramento, and now the house I bought my mom bought her on house. Everybody think I bought my mother house. It was in Jet magazine and he bought his MoMA house. My mother here, by the

damn thing. Good night. When you first saw the roots in Sacramento, you still living in your mom's house. No, No, I had bought a house in Sacramento. I followed. I followed her. I lived there at the first couple of years. I wasn't buying nothing, but I had a toyo. The trade here wrapped all from my sister. I wasn't buying nothing, but I was very fruble. I wasn't. I didn't believe the hype either. They scared me so much about being

an artist. I never really bought into the whole artist thing. Really. I kept I kept a very low pro but I wrote just Me and you and my Mother's in my room in my mother's house on an MP and a T three accord. And I wasn't I wrote that in my room. Wow. Yeah, So then I was. I just so I didn't run into j King a lot um Club New Vau, because he actually spun off Danny and Tommy, and Denny and Tommy went on to get a production deal with Ed Exstein over at um Wing Records, which

he became the predent president of PolyGram. And after that, right, I'm Billy ex Stein and x Stein was Ed x Stein was R. Clive Davis. After that, we never had one. Since I've been pretty much on my own, I never had to go to I had no connect after that. After that was just connecting with artists and just kind of just um doing myself. But Danny and Tommy was definitely the ones who who spun us into making songs because we had just left Print and I don't know

what what happened to us right after that. I don't think we had any we we didn't have any producer skills or any like. We knew structure, song structure, but we wasn't studying it. We would have came out trying to be probably Monserati and somebody if it wasn't for those too. One, if Prince is offen you an opportunity to do something, in your mind, it's like, yo, we're about to make it. Like not how much courage did

it take? But obviously you gave them a note and at one point, like was basically park even trying to sign you guys, you never got it, never got that far. I was just like Sheila was gonna fire us pretty soon because she was going on to play on the Signs at the Times tour. So like Prince will get on the bus, he would play. He would play Signs at the Times the whole album mark. He would he would see me in the club and were like he's like, come over here, I want to play you something, and

then we'll walk to the speaker. He would look at the DJ and he was like, hold on he like, put your head in the speaking, so both of us would put our head inside of a folded cabinet in like this, and then he'll points to the DJ and then he played house Quake. And at that point I knew Sheila was on our way and we was on our way home. And then they put like they put like her role manager Roy uh got his name at the time. They put McDonald applications in our and our

bunks on the tour circle back again? So wait, circle back again, Tony, Tony, Tony, what was your circle back with Prince and Sheila? Appreciate that I did? I did, I did? I said, let us sit for a second. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I didn't when I considered take the moment he walked up with Mickey d applications in our bumps. Yeah, because that was it, and we were going home because he was playing all these hits,

you know, offishing coffee was like damn. So he took Levin Caesar, he took Sheila, and he took Bonnie Boy and we were all in the band together with Sheila talking about I know nothing about like Bonnie came from Old correct, Bonnie was from Oakland. She was funky. I mean she would pick up my basse and showed me some funk licks that I didn't know. And yeah, so her boyfriend growing up was in this band called Windstorm. Right. Her boyfriend and back in the day was Rusty Allen.

Rusty Allen. She did that Rusty Allen's uh Larry's replacement and family. So she knew all that bass stuff from him. So she used to show me licks that I one day, we're sitting down and I'll show you what she showed me. She took my basse in the in the back of the buzz and just took my basse like give me that. It just started like and almost like damn like. So yeah, Bonnie was. She was a Oakland on the Oakland's Greatest she Um. She was a vocal colt. She was a

keyboard player with Sheila. She doubled Sheila vocals on the tour. If you listen to Kissing you did, I did. I produced for a Puffies group. Total um. That that the backgrounds, that's her. That's Bonnie Boye. Wow, did not know. That's awesome. So she was she was. She was. She was all that man so that experience. Hey, one more quick question. I know also know, I know that um around. Wait was was Rosie from Oakland or was she from l A. I don't. I don't know exactly what she's from, but

she lived in Oakland most of her life. She was like she was in that circle as well, and didn't come until the second draft wouldn't be g but I wanted to know if she made her rounds in the local Oh, she was like, she had like local gigs and everybody play with her. She had a I mean, Prince pretty much adopted everybody out of Oakland, from Miko Weaver to Sheila's first bandakand Too. Yeah, bro, everybody getting him? Man, Oh, everybody Prince used after the Revolution was all Oakland based,

mostly a Latin the next two bands obviously. Okay, that makes that makes total sense. Okay, so circle back now after the McDonald's applications are on your bed but you're grown. You're right, Tony, Tony, Tony, what's the first running the Prince and Sheila Eli, now that you have proven your stelf to the world, Yeah, well, I think, uh, the first one was when I wrote this song on my first song called Born Out to Know, and I wrote

this line said for no reason. It's only because I'm a lazy songwriter and I just wrote this lyric that said, uh, things are getting crazy. I'm not wearing Paisley because I was born out to know. So Prince must have heard that. Invited me into a show in Hamptonsvirginia on the Love Sexy tour and he asked me if I wanted to come on stage, and I'm like, yeah, sure. So I come on stage and he said, you want to come up and play basketball. So we're just shooting basketball on

the court. He's shooting around and then he goes Then it gets to Mike and he goes out, here's a little boy who made the pays the rhyme. And I'm like, damn, he heard that, and so right, boy, that's where I was. I was at boy now, But to him, here's a little boy who made the pays and rhyme. And I'm like wow. So he gives me the microphone. He leaves me on the stage. Now this is Pat and I'm like, well,

I've got a couple of band members up there. I'm like, I don't know what to do, like you know, so I started singing Heylo Walter and the crowd, and she loves on drums, Bonny and everybody. And this time Prince had from what I heard, princes never really invited people on the stage for that, No Leanney, nobody, and he invited me on the stage. And so everybody in the band that knew me, they was all crying, and I'm like, why are they crying Because they were saying because he

was being so nice to me. But he always been really, really really nice to me. He always like invited me out to dinner in Japan. You wanna go, you wanna get something to eat, You want to go do this. You need some girls, you need some models. He was always like that to me. Um, it was weird because nothing about Princess when Um, when when I was gonna be in Madhouse, he told me, he told Levi to tell me to go listen to the Chamber Brothers. I

never heard of the Chamber Brothers. So when I got back home off the tour, after I decided not to go back with friends like the Prince thing never came to a few fuishtion like people thought, but I remember him saying I should listen to the Chamber Brothers. So I went to this place called Leopold's in Berkeley, and I bought every Chamber Brothers album there was and when I listened to it, they had a son called the Spiritual Negro Spiritual called Wade in the Water and they

it was so dark and how they did it. And my first single ever what the Tony's was hey little Walter. Yeah right, so Prince was like, uh kind of responsible for giving me a little light on that, which became it Tony's first ever ever single hit song and Sindbad's first video appearance. That's right. Wait, I just want to put it in perspective because a little confused. Yeah, the way that the Love Sex Tour was set up was

Prince also had a basketball court on the stage. Stage it was it was the show was in the round. I mean like his last rounce of shows worth so it was like an elaborate It was probably his most expensive setup. So yeah, uh wait, speaking of which, speaking of who the song to six to one five, especially the pre internet, whose idea was that was in mine?

Was that your brother? All right? First of all, can you explain because I feel like the songs that your brother produces sounds the way that you guys work like, is there an alpha for the person that brings the song to to the forefront or does he just work on a song by himself and you work on a song by yourself and you just figure like, Okay, well here's our tony album or how does that work? And then in the later albums it was really exactly what

you said. And the other one maybe the second album around. The first album was mainly you know, Danny and Tommy and us, but the first single, like Little Walter was just me, uh, Danny and Tommy, those guys we got our first song. They didn't even show up to the studio at all, so um for the first song. And so but Dwayne, Dwayne will come up songs at home. He will he'll come in and will get together and figure him out. But he will come up with a title like two six one point five that's actually a

peno call for messing with. Yes, you know that's that's that's crazy. You're the only one everybody we know who knows that. I had to ask you, how would he know that? Should I ask that? I didn't mean, I don't think I think I think he was At the time, he had dated a younger lady he was his friend,

and um, I think her auntie was an attorney. She was, but she was pretty much a fast as one of the fast as little girls who was like, you know, smart, they're really smart, and was just like, you know, this is like a two six one point five, and so like that's the song. And so he wrote a song about it, and we sort of took it from that. People, let me tell you about a best friend. He's the one first in and look and I always I always

love that show as a kid. So I added that part the vamp of the song, and um, yeah, I just yeah, that's the way and answer you a question. Yeah, I was gonna say in an interview, you guys wants to describe yourself, you said that you were seventy yourselves the time and then ten percent the monkeys. That that was the way. I had nothing to do with any of that, the monkey. But the thing the thing is, though,

I mean I understood the monkey's reference. Mind you, he said it on Soulturing, so like that would have thrown everyone off, but I got it that you guys like humor the time. The time definitely showed that humor because we was none of that. If I could just clear. If I could just say who we were, I would say we were We were like everything that the Oakland but Oakland gave us, and we were a bit of trying to be like an earth Wind and Fire and the Commodore's And like my brother used to singing like

this song called Hello Sunshine, Hello sun Shine. Dwayne was that. Dwayne was more like the Pbow Bryson who played guitar. We were a little bit of We were a little bit of the Isley Brothers, a little bit of earth Wind and Fire in the Commodores, and we we were like a funk band. We were more like a brick. I think that's who we were. I think doing Dwayne would say things that he thought sounded great on TV. I mean, I mean because you guys had you guys

were funny. You guys showed humor in like your pop culture references and all that stuff that the wrong isn't the wrong kid? Yeah, I mean, but for me, I was always trying to be honestly. For me, I was only trying to I was more of a hip hop East Coast hip hop head, so I was always trying to find out how why was those drums so dirty and hip hop, and our drums were so clean. So my whole quest was to find out how to you

to get dirty drums on my music. And how I found out was I was I s ice Cube on our first tour and because we toured in w as it was, it was it was crazy because there were no other bands, and I think they needed us on the tour because it was for insurance reasons. It wasn't you know, and it was for insurance reasons. Nobody told me that. I had to figure that out. But anyway, I was hanging out ice Cube and he told me that the reason why drums sound like that, it's these

It's called break beats, and you could get up. You could get these records from like forty five kings from the Swap Meat to the Swap Meet, and I bought every break beat and that's when I started hearing the meters and that's the music I really love. And then hip hop was like tried and everybody was sampling Slide and the songs that I like, and I was like, that's what I'm gonna get into was more of that,

and then I try to marry the both. So what was that project that came after that, after you had that conversation with I c me, you went out and brought all that stuff. What was the Tony Tony proct? So no revival? I was gonna say, what lessons did you learn, assuming that you guys took the lead on it, what lessons did you learn on revival um that you didn't know on the Who record? And how did you break to Danny and Tommy? Because I mean the Who

record was a hit. I mean, you guys have three hits on it, So what's the like are you talking to Ed x Stein saying like, look, I think we could do this on our own. Let us I think we just said that we wanted to do it on our own. I don't know if we knew what the hell we were doing it all. We were definitely you know, you know, yeah, I'll give kudos to add because he let us actually do it. But we've we've never had

to end our person nowhere near our rooms ever. We just we just spent too much money figuring out on that second album. I think we rented a Sinclavera for like two hundred fifty dollars for the whole time, So we got ripped off on that. So that's what I learned, uh on how not to spend money on something you didn't really need about to say that, y'all even use it on that album, were using on the whole album. That's why it sounds so clean, like whatever you want

to it's like, so it sounds like crisp. We just we just interviewed Pat mcfenny, who also, like you know, he's the think King. Yes, exactly. So he was explaining, like the early stages of that was like very expensive to operate when we looked at it. We looked at the budget and I was like, okay, we'll never do that. Also, I knew that, Um, you guys worked with Keith Crouch on that album as well. He Keith, Yeah, Keith played um.

He's played This is a funny story. Keith. Keith played um, he played He played bass synthesizer on maybe one of the songs he tore with us. He didn't really he played on those with the days I think okay, um, but so and so me and Keith got into a little altercation over this girl like when it was funny. So right after he played almos So when I did Tony's in the wrong key. I introduced everybody who played with us. He heard it. His name used to be

on it. But when it got to his name, I said, and we had this one man and his name is and his name and his name is So and you know Betty. So we're really cool. We're really cool. He told me. A long time ago, he said, bro, I was in the room with all my friends, and he said, I was listing the record and said, by the name of I was petty those days. I was very petty. Oh man, I can't believe that ship. So you got the game? Say it again? Did you get to PS five?

Just wait, Rol? You see him a PlayStation? Is that? What's going on? Right? No, you don't want to answer that question, Raphael. You want to finish the interview. Oh, okay, your gamer? I am now, Yes, I was an ex gamer. I thought I got out the game, and then when I got this, uh my, my entire staff was like, yo, man, your life is about to change. I'm afraid you open it. The box is blacked out, Yes it is. Can we see it? He want? Can we see it? Yes? Blackouts?

My game company is called il Phonic, and I've never really questioning. He was like, what is this? So I sent him a game to say, you know, we got a game called r K getting. It's me and my engineer. We started a game company called il Phonic and I'm a nas is one of my favorite m sees. So I called it Illphonic after Ilmatic and um yeah, so we it's a guy in the world again. Thirteen years of uh so, my partner Chuck brun Gard, we started

the game. We started this game coming together because we were finding the heart of the music industry to like, even we make records like record industry, people wouldn't even let us makes our own records for other people that we produced. So I came up with another game, a game that we used to laugh about called Ghetto Golf because they wouldn't let me in the fighting game on Russell Simmons label. I knew I could never be on the game. It was an RB, it was a rap game.

So we started this coming. We started this company back then and we split up to start the game. He moved to Denver. We started at my studio and like after thirteen years, we did Predator Friday the thirteen and doing really well. And then this is the first year I started I said something about it because really, in the gaming world, people don't really care about you being

a musician. They just want to have funny you know, video games is about gameplay, and um, one of our guys that Steve Wetman, is the visual guy who get all the styles of music, which is uh, you know, like the music is kind of based on like if it was a futuristic dealer or fifty years from now or like jungle funk, and it's a lot of different people who um, a lot of different musicians who did I didn't do any music in the game. Usually when I talk about the video game, people go, oh, you

put music in the game. I'm like, uh no, No, I owned the game company last game. Yeah, I just want invested invested in it, and it's doing really well. And in Quest is the first person that I actually sent a personalized lacked out. It's a multiplayer Yeah, it's a multiplayer game. Um um, you could play, you can play, you could play it in the configuration on one on one, you could do the way. But it's a quroberative multiplayer game.

If you know anything about games, and we just really, uh, I just want to get into this world because I just felt I found it kind of hard beauty in the music injury so clicky, you know what I mean? Like I said, I haven't had a goal to person since Edex time. So I said, you know what, the way the way the music industry is now with streaming. You know, my music is not a game, and in games they stream, so I was figured I should get into something where streaming was gonna be very popular. Game.

So how many games you got in game? Like you can go? How many games you got out Friday the thirteen, the last one in Predator and be working on Ghostbusters right now? And RK in his art right now it's it's an Epics store in two thousand and twenty two. It's gonna be a lot more platforms and um a lot more platforms than just PS five, But right now was the Epics Store. On PS five, I was game, what games do you play? Like? What some of your

games that you just play to be a game? I could play Caller do you a little bit a lot? But I'm really I'm really like a sports junkie, like I'm a statement man two K something like people like to play nice my son, my son? They be on two K he got new when he's been killing it, does he play he plays two K he's on he's on two K. I mean he was you know, like all the kids when he was on Fortnite, you know heavy when that was that was popular. But he's more

of a two k uh guy. I'm more of I do first I could do first person shooter, but I'm more so like you know, Resident Evil survival horror, like I'm in the story type ship. You know what. Okay, yeah, that's what this is. This is check it out. I gotta P five too, I gotta P five. But I want to say to question, congratulations on on the documentary. I must have watched it like seven times on my couch.

And so you don't think you're about to leave a maror he thinks he's satting down like he's thinking about the clothes. I'm not sure. I just want to make sure that I said that because when that comes up in my queue, like, I get chills watching the Fifth Dimensions. I've never seen the move, so to watch it come to life and to know that that happened, and to know,

like I mean, people that need they were black. I mean, there's so much question is always passing out history like I'm definitely using it for my next project because yeah, oh wow, yes you know what he told me his daughter to me, Yeah, that's amazing. I shall be calling you. What was how not? How or why? What was the process? How was Lisa Bonne the deciding factor in directing uh the California video? M hm for never end, A lot of people turned the treatments. She just had the best.

She had the best treatment, honestly, And we were always trying to we were always trying to be different. At the same time, we didn't want to. We didn't want to out our our the audience that we gained, right, but we felt like we could gain a new audience

and we could. You know, we felt like Lisa just she had to adge, she had to edge on them all the interior decorating that that I like, Um, she kind of gave me an apartment that I've never had at that time, you know, um, just at that time, I didn't know that she was heavily direct like into directing videos or whatever. So she had like a rep

that said, like open, yeah, I guess she did. I don't think she did it too much to think she I think she disliked the record, and she just offered a treatment, and we just chose her to to direct. If the Prince was about to hire for one of the songs on Diamonds Pros, the thing like walk don't Walk. Okay, whether they shot it, I'm not certain, but I believe that she was. I don't think they shot it, you know, I mean, Prince is the kind of guy that will do a movie and then put it away for like

forty two seconds. But you know, Oh, my boy wanted me to ask you, how did you talk Don Cornelius into the House Party video which I think Don does a cameo. Don Cornelius has a cameo and the I don't know what you come to do? Uh, I don't know. I don't think Don is gonna like me too much. I don't know, Wait what what you do? Don? I love we loved, I love Don on me, I said. I watched, So I think I found is that it

wasn't that he didn't like me. I remember doing soult Train one time, and I just remember all these girls, like I call it halftime when everybody's taking a break. First time doing SoulTrain, and you're like, oh, this is Soultrained. But then when I saw all the girls like feed herding and eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and half time, I was like, this ship is kind of cheesy a little bit, right they feed them KFC and then um it was bad,

you know. And so but then we was on there with a new edition, in a new edition, like they took, they did one take, they looked at the monitor, they came back, they did it over. They did over about four or five times until they liked it. And Little Rest in Peace Little Silas was an m c A Records at the time, and so when we got up there to our performance, man, we performed once and they

were like, got it. I'm like, we don't get to look at the monitor, you see if we like what I What I realized is that, you know, our label probably wasn't spending spending the sponsor money. It's a nice way to phrase that, you know. So we were pretty much a one and done. And when I found out out, I just I was kind of just a little disheartening with, you know, the way that I was learning on the fly how the industry was. So so when I did get involved, I was done with Soul Trained. So when

I did get involved. Um yeah, they they they wanted me to do to perform on Soul Train, and I was like, and I'm not doing Soul Trained, so they begged me to do it. So I was like, I stood outside the paramount until it was time for me to walk and say, I don't want to be in the dressing room. I stood outside. I walked in and

I performed and I walked out. And then um years later, I was up the street called whitenecka as it's a little golf, a little driving range, and I went to this little driving range just to hang out some balls and Don Canuees was there just hitting balls and he just walked up to me and we had a amazing conversation. He was just giving me props in Solb'm watching you. I'll see what you're doing. And he didn't he he didn like me. But I was young and I was

confused about the politics. You know what I mean. Nobody, nobody was spinning on bread with him at my label. You know that you have dreams of like being on this legacy show and then you get to see how the sausage just made and it's not like how you think it is. And that is disappointing. Yeah, you know you could be like, you know, like you mean to actually throw these saucers on the ground and kick him around and then put him in the bun exactly. Yeah, Okay,

I gotta jump to suns and Soul. So the first time that I had I didn't have an interaction with you. This is weird enough. We had an audition, uh with that x Stein and we were going to sign to PolyGram H And I went to I went to some dinner uptown. I forget where it was. You were also at this restaurant, and I can overhear your conversation, and you were talking about this tour and you were telling

the craziest stories I've ever heard in my life. Like I would think that you were talking about like like Hammer the God's era led Zeppelin, and you weren't talking about You were talking about touring with Janet Jackson, now without you burning bridges from one to ten And I'm not talking about the Tony Tony Tony side of things for one to ten. How crazy was that Janet Jackson tour? It was a ten that planted a lot of seeds in my head on like those things can happen on

the route. Yeah, it was just you know what it's like, you know, we're of course we were like huge, j I'm gonna use Michael. I'm a Jackson five fan, you know. So I grew up with the Brothers, the first black families, So I mean, you know, I love Randy, loved to Jackson. So just to get on the tour and learning tour, you just learned tour politics right, and the tour politics were I took two guys. They were just out of high school, really had nowhere to live. There were dancers.

I took him on the tour. I met him in Sacramento. I just moved to San Francisco. Just oh hip hop world and documental that I found and I used to play with him freestyle. You know, I should play bass. Was this thing called sixty seconds direct MC has come up. It was based playering the drummer and so I will meet all these mcs and and it was a couple

of dancers live in my neighborhood. So I took him on the tour and Janet people said it was a it was conflicting with their show with these two dancers that we had no I think that Janet had like thirty five whatever if you look at Pleasure Principle or whatever, those those videos and she has the whole real nation. Yeah, so they told us we had to like get rid of the dances. What right her At the time, her

husband was his name was Renee. He kind of walked in and said, you know, Janet thinks it's in conflict with her. And I was like, man, look, we got two dancers. If that's I'm leaving, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not telling them kids. They got to go home. These two kids are like eighteen years old, twenty but no money, you know what I mean. We we only they only had two sets of two suits to tour with, I mean, and we had no lights on the stage

and nothing. I mean, you couldn't even see something that tour. I should tell people on the radio, if you want to see us, bring a flashlight. And then we never really met Jannet, and she invited us on the tour. So I remember I came. I came to the show once and my whole band in the row cruise in this big line and they by her room and they were all walking to her room. She was in the front door shaking their hand, and I just was walking by and I'm like, I'm not standing in the line

and shake her hand. Like when you go on tour, you supposed to like introduced to come say hi to the group and say hey, you invited this. So that was kind of that for me. And I think I was on the radio station and I said, you know, from Oakland something. They asked me, how was it, you know, being you know, meeting Jenn I was like at this point, it was We've been on tour a long time. I said, I've never met her, but I think, you know, she

probably the same girl from Good Times Penny, you know. Yeah, so you know, I had jokes, but you know, we we love Janet and we mean, I love Jimmy and Terry, and it was, you know, we well it was to our support. We're only making like three thousand dollars a night, so we had to pay for our tour bus. And then like what happened was Michael started that Michael thing has started to happen. So some shows we will get

to and it would be tours will be canceled. And instead of somebody calling us and saying the show is canceled, we will find out like the fans. So we still have to pay the crew the buses. And it happened like three or four times. I think she was kind of helping Michael move around, which we understand that, but we we didn't know, so she couldn't tell us right. So but I said, if it happens again, I'm going home. So I left in Philly the night he got canceled.

In Philly. Yes, well that was my last night. I went to the I took I told the bus to take me to the airport, and then they hired many conditions a nice parallel move. Okay, I was gonna ask you they did a makeup show and you guys weren't the opener. And I was so disappointed and wanted to know what happened. What happened? So needless to say, you are the best person to tour with because you know what the worst is like. You know what the worst is like. Is I I treat people people toured us.

I mean I treat people like kings. Because the first tour that Tony's ever did was really uh with the Rare Rocks. We opened up for Earth Wind and Fire when more Rese White was in the group, and they wanted a band that was more of like a track day band because since we had to set up, we couldn't do as many shows within and Fire. But when we did play with them more reach White brought us to the back of the room and said, Hey, I love you guys. Whenever you need you can have asked

for it, you got it. However much time you need, you got it. And that's how we treated people when we Uh, I think Joe opened up for us and my and my tour manager was get off the stage. I've walked in and saw that. I walked right in the middle of them and said, Joe, take as much time as you want, will be in the dress room. When you're done, you come tell us and so yeah, so I mean we just told with Bobby Brown, Bobby

Brown is just unplugged our instruments. Well, right, we when we I love Bobby to this day, I see we like this. But Bobby used to come and be just like and just at take the big socket and just unplug it. We up there just to ah damn. But now that was like how tour was. Tour was like R and b was kind of ghost back in the day. Okay, I will say for me, Sons a Soul like every person that every musician has, like that one the album

that's like they're they're saving grace. There's in m sort of thing, and you know, the just during the time and which like we were searching for a deal. I mean we were traveling like the flint Stones inside of a beat up two hundred dollars station wagon with no floorboard in the back, like we have to elevate our feet in the air to not hit the ground, like traveling like the Middle Passage, and like you know, just that whole period of like will we get a deal?

Will we not get a deal? And living in poverty and all, and like just listening to that record like man, one day I'm gonna play music like this and front audiences and like I don't know, like Sons of Soul wound up being that record from me. Yeah, that was the one for me too, yea. And I know that your your relationship with which he really solidified with that record, assuming that he assisted on drums on like Tony's a

long key and all that stuff. I mean the drums are definitely boombastic and loud like that just during that time period how are you guys uh connecting as a group, Like, how are decisions made? How are you know? Is it every man like gets an equal vote or that sort of thing, or is it like you're starting to see the the kind of uh seems starting to break. Well, I don't think. I think we were just I think

we were like so happy to be on. I think my brother Dwayne is more of the person who was in search of a deal more than any of us. He was a couple of years older. Um, but once we got in, you know, Duwayne was this party time and I was more in a state of mind like we could fall off. This is not promised to us, and uh, I was just looking at things that our lives. I think I became pretty much the the person that was steering the boat. But I had a wall of

people behind me that was very talented. I always felt like if you know, you're the best person in the room and you're in the wrong room, and um, I had a lot of great musicians around me that could, you know, do the things that I needed to do to make the records that I wanted to make. Now, did I know that people are gonna like those records? No? I didn't have a clue about record sales or number one. I never cared about Billboard. I never looked at bill

Board for number one record. I was really trying to impress the people before me. I just really wanted you know, you know, hip hop, hip hop artists. You know. I was really big on making hip hop people like my records, all the records like we don't like and we don't know. I was like, oh, you're gonna like this. R and B. I had a chip on my shoulder about that and was my joint on that record. It was just to break be fun. That was my one. Yeah, I was

gonna say that. Yeah, Like I was definitely anti R and B and ninety two, Like I just thoughted was like warded down in corner understill why And I heard it and if you know, first I was like front like Tony, Tony got a record like whatever, And I heard and I was like, wait a minute, Like there's break beats and things that I like, like if a trap called Quest made music, this is what it would be.

And yeah, and that's that's that's because Yeah, it's like it's like the beginning seeds of that's that's the thing I want to ask you were you were you are aware what the state of emergency was for the Black Band, because technically Tony Tony Tony is probably either the last pure soul group you know, And that's where you mentioned Chambers Brothers, because I was trying to find a band that was self contained, not led by someone not slying

the family stone, not jeans around the famale. But okay, man out, Okay, So the last batch between main condition and and Tony Tony to like you guys are are the last it's it's it's endangered species. You were you guys even aware that there was like you guys were about to be a novelty. I mean ten years later, even the idea of groups being together would be like a thing like to to even collaborate with people in a unit. Were even aware of the time that time

is running out for the Black Band? Um, I don't think we were aware of it. I think we we just we were so blinded by what happened before us, and um we were so stuck in the past and living in the future at the same time. Because we loved hip hop, we love what was going on, but we always thought we were a part of I always

thought I could be a part of it. Like when I got to New York and I saw rock Him walking down the street where I was sitting in a limo or something and getting ready to do an in store, I see Eric being rock Him with a crew with dapper dance, sweat suit tune, and I was just sitting there like what. So as soon as I got to New York, man I was. I broke free to every

studio and found everything I wanted to find. Um are as, you know, tribe and um by powers and different people, different outboard gear for studios, different you know, needs and different were you saying, like was the rest of your band sort of on line with you? Like, yo, we need to we need to sound progressive like these people. Now it was just me. They'll they'll tell you that too. But everybody playing a good part, like tim was Timothy Riley. Christian Riley is like like slide on the organ on

the B three. He's a drummer, but he's a great Oregon player. So where he was at, he wanted to be there, you know, um where Dwyane was at, he Dwayne was like a guy who played football his whole life and was in shape, and then when football was over, He's like, I'm not working out no more. So once we got on, Dwayne was like, we are you know that's it? And I was like, man, I don't know

if we're really. I've seen too many groups when I go to record stores and I'm going through vinyl and all these groups that I've seen it we don't know about. We never heard of. I wasn't really they thought they were on too, so I was more. I was more like I knew it was. It was a novelty. But just because of the tours that we had to go on, there was no space. I remember Salt and Pepper wanted us to. We toured MC Hammer, Candy Man, I w A and I remember Salton Pepper was like, pickt the

Tony's off the tour. They got a band to the set changes too long, you know what I mean. It wasn't like being nasty towards us, but the set change had to be. They didn't like the set change. The only person the only reason why we stayed on that to us because Hammer Hammer kept us on the turk.

Can I ask you all the questions since this is a rare moment, especially with you and Mirror and Raphael on the line because I'm translating, and I always thought in my mind, and now that you've clarified that you were such a hip hop head and you had to be you had to be there. This is the pivotal start of Mirror, right of what we would call I mean. So I just want to stay it out loud because the father of that, and I hate to term. I hate to term Neil. So everybody give me to give

me the everybody hate it, But what's the replace? But it's like, it's the shortest way to describe you. Guys. Definitely started something new, Okay, So I'm gonna kill it. I've grown past it. I'm not like I used to be about the word. Let me tell you why I say it, why I was sending it back to And I did this album called very right. On the back I had a schoolstone it says Neo Soul rest in peace, right, So I was all about that. So my thing was Neil.

Like like hip hop was a fresh, great brand, a great idea, Neil Soul was more of a budget that kid R. Massenberg kind of came up with for Erica Bad and everybody ever thought about it, and it was like the way to go to a marketing meeting and say this group was not the Temptations are the Slide and it's like new So it's neo. So when you go to a meeting, instead of explaining they're not gonna sell a million, they might do anywhere from two to three,

you just say for short neo soul. It had nothing to do about the filling in the music like hip hop. But but you do know to the fans it actually so it might have started that way, but then it kind of matriculated to fans to something else, to just something that they could say, that's what it's can I ask, right, so what would you have? What would you have called it? Because it's your ship, so what would you were called?

I mean it was a moment. I mean someone didn't when I did, When I didn't answer advantage, I was, you know, I was striking a different thing, a couple of things that didn't really stick, but I was trying, and I came out with gospel delic for me, for my own gospel. Man, it's gospel delic is mean, there's some truth to it, and there's the funking the psychedelic in what I do so I called Mommy is a gospel delic. There's some truth, there's some funk psychedelic, that's

what I called it. Anything but that, but we would have been called gospel. But honestly, look, look, I understand any group that was under it. I understand because it was a budget and everybody was getting on. It was a deal with money behind it, So there's nothing really wrong with it. It's just to me, it's a whack ass name. But it's a beautiful movie. Man, it's a wag name. I mean, it's great. Groups came out of it, but none of those artists. I feel like it gave

it gave everybody a clock. But in hip hop, right, it's forever. No, it's not backpacker hip hop, that's forever. I mean, here's the thing, Like, the reason why I don't it's so weird, especially with neo soul, It's just that everyone in that category was helping on making sure that you knew they're not in that category. And then it just became funny to me because the thing is, I didn't know that. I thought I was the only everybody wants to people nobody under quote ar umbrella wants

to claim it. I mean, yes, I think kidar uh, what do you call it? U copyrighting the word? Like? And I told him this. I was like, you ended the genre when you made a public that you copy wrote the word, like who who's gonna like? You just

ended your own movement. But the thing is is like as a guy who shops at Amiba or Raspputants or Jerry's records, you know, I want to know where's the quickest what like fine, Like it's an identifier for me, so I know exactly what section to go to something by the record I want to and not have to scrounge through thousand records. But I mean I digress, like I definitely feel as though you guys were a part of something. And you know this, it's not only for

this genre. I remember when Luther and Anita was scoffing at Nelson George's description where he called it retro noeuvou. And you know, people, it's it's just hard to categorize something or given opinion on something until like twenty years has passed. But you know, especially now that thirty years has passed since that movement, it's it's and I'm just lazy well, yeah, you know, I don't know kind of like to say to like if you listen to so yeah, yeah.

I mean when you look at music like I look at all music like this, if it's early country music like blues, early Muddy Waters, and you can go you can go back before people was making records to beat for Hot Sunny Hawks. Before you can go back to when it was making records in the field, in the country, all the way to now two. Black music is one music to me, if you have to categorize it to make money, to put in the categorize its categories to

differentiate and make money, but really it's all one. It's all one music. It's it's because black people are so creative, but it's all our music and basketball. We gotta crossover. We do all these different things so good. So that's when you listen to music like Trapp now Trapp is trapped, now you got Drill right, It's just it's just I feel like we're just it's all one thing. Like when hip hop came out, I always wanted to see hip hop get old. I always want to see the last

like the tribe, the generation before that. I wanted to know how they were going to react as older men because I got a chance to see the Temptations and the Shalamars and and the whispers get old, and how do they always want to see how the coolest cats in the world hip hop was the coolest. We don't like thorn. I want to see what they were gonna be like as older men. And it's so funny to watch when you see like hip hop casts like talking

about trap artists. That would have been the way whispers what I've been talking about somebody rapping, Like what the hell are you talking about? I don't know, blah blah blah. Now you hear artists, hip hop artists saying that about trap artists, And it's just because now our generation is

at PTA meetings. Let me just say this too. As a former black radio person, you should know that neo soul to a lot of people was rebellious music, and especially to black radio people, because this was music that we weren't necessary allowed to play. Literally, Raphael, I planned to tell you the story about how I got fired for interviewing you live on the radio, and I think that a lot of times. Yes, y'all don't know, huh. It was my pleasure. It was. It was my pleasure.

But understand that like people fought people like myself, tim Me Bagon and like DJ's around the country that wasn't it was called trauma. We was fighting for this ship. When they when they said to me, yo, I'm a real quick rock Field. They said to me rock Fails is doing our music conference and we want you to interview him and tape it and we're gonna play it

back after we start playing his record. Right, But this was during the time when you put out the record that was kind of Stacks inspired, right, and I'm on the hip hop right, so I'm like, this is Philadelphi. Yeah, I mean you remember because I was drilling you about Josh Stone and stuff. We had a good time. So so what's funny is when they said that they was gonna play this ship back, I was like, that's a lie, because you're not gonna never play no songs from this

record because they don't fit our format. Right. So when you walked into the studio live, I was like, this is fucking Rafael Sad, the father of this fucking ship. That is the height. That's the reason that Philadelphia is doing what it's doing right now. How would I be like to sit here and lie and do a fake interview with this person. So we went up live and a week later they was like, you disobeyed what I did, which we told you to do. That was part of

the story. So another funny story about that record when I went to this radio station in South Carolina and so the radio guy at the time, he was the regional guy, was in Atlanta, so he took me in this radio station. So my whole radio promo was a fake out with Colombia. It was all fake, I believe it. But they had to take me because of the respect for the records that I was producing. They didn't just want to let me go, so they took me on this fake radio run that I was doing interviews. But

nobody was at the label cared about the records. So they did tell me. Some of the guys that Columbia told me just get his record away because streaming was

about to happen, and they didn't. They were spending money on records and records weren't selling, so they were confused because like Bruce Springsteen wasn't selling, None of the records were selling because it was streaming, right, So I get in the crop with this guy, and he says, he said, man, your record is actually where they spinning that what the

numbers were like was was high on the record. So he said, he said, he said because he said, well, they told me, he said between me Columbia told me just to take this record out and tell him it's it's experimental record and just play it real late at night. So like, but the record kind of caught fire, like love that Girl, because people was like listening to it. And so what happened was Europe ended up calling France. Actually France called parents called they they called uh Strainger

over in Columbia. They said, I don't know about in the States, but this is a real record over here. And so that's when I started playing in front of like fifteen thousand people by myself and Europe different venues. But yeah, the whole record was like a fake out and end up being one of my Yeah, that's that's funny. I remember that. Wait, all right, things are coming back to me now that I know I'll never get to ask you again. I gotta go back to Sons and

Soul for this one question. All right, So you worked with a guy who I had hope for to be the future. And it's not who you think I'm talking about. You work with director Sangi and this is hot office passed me by success like black videos, we've never seen somebody with like Spike Jones is aesthetic for black videos. But dog the Pillow video, how did Homie talk to you all into doing that video? Naked? But that wasn't sun That wasn't That wasn't sund and leaving. I thought

he did all three of your videos. Okay, he wouldn't have never done that. That was who did that? I don't know. And those the people that're standing up those are those are not us? That's not us. On the doubles that spinned around bloodass neck that was that wasn't Pillow forgot. I'm like, trust me, everybody was drinking. So my my brother, my brother's thing was this. This is all Dwayne he was. I'm not I'm not throwing him under the bus because he stands by it. He stands

by trust me. My brother has no regrets about nothing he does. I love you. Try to do the video. Oh not in the in the part when the three dudes are standing together and they spin and then when you watch them they spend like really like it looked real bad TV showing the video and they clouded up all the private areas. So that's how like it's like

my brother. So my brother walks in like we like the red hot chili peppers in his mind, so he's like, he like, this could be like a real like this could be like one of those what's the what's the cartoon? Um George Clinton the tour bus? This could be like the Tales of the tour Bus because like you know when they showed George Clinton, just jump out their kid, right.

So it's like my brother walked in the room. And my brother walks in the room and goes, hey, guess what, guys, he could be the first band into a neked video. And I was like what So so this is what I said. I said, Well, if Tim Tim is a square, was square this time it's nerd church boy, church of God in Christ, I said Tim. I said that Tim agrees, I'll do it. It's no way in hell Tim is agreeing on this. Right. We walk in the room and said what do you think Tim? Tim goes, let's do it.

Ship That's how that happened. Wow, man, man, Yeah, I had another Sons of Soul question the interlude don't be bashfood, don't be Was that a real hold guy? Oh no, no, we we we are. Engineer Jerry Brown took this record out in the middle of Manhattan and gave this guy some money and he sang that he brought it back. I was like that ship at speaking when when you spoke of your engineer helping you develop, were you talking about Jerry Jerry Brown? Is he still setting up Christmas

lights in the studio? Y'all gotta know, you know, Jerry Brown is the first cat, first black cat I've ever heard say. Yeah, man, you just gotta find your enerjoy. And for me, every day is Christmas and there's no when we did what they do, it was Christmas and we did what they do and like we did it in May, and he had that he had your studio looking like Christmas. And then when he was working with Alicia Keys, same thing. I walked in and saw this

Christmas decorations. I was like, oh, raphaels Deep must be here because it's Christmas time. And Jerry came out. What is what is the deal with Jerry? And as obsession with every day is Christmas to him? You know what. I never knew that's what he was doing until you just said it. But you're right, because because the one thing I do remember about Jerry is this. You know, he's still around. You know he he makes a lot of John legends. It's funny. He makes the John Leston

Christmas legend. Like YO, did Jerry? He's like, yes, he did. Yeah. So the funny thing about Jerry. What I remember about Jerry the Moostes. He talks about when songs in the Kid of Life came out and he went and he stood in line and Tower records on the sinset this long line and he bought that record and he came home and Christmas Eve and he played that record, so he has to think about Christmas. You're right, that is crazy? Is that? I was asking? Is that the same? Is

it Ali and Jerry? Is it the same? From Jerry? Not him? Mixed the group called Climax. He Climax back in the day. Um used to be a stud ABC. He worked at ABC back in the day as an engineer. FRANTI that Jerry is Jerry Knight who Jerry Knight Jack and Jel radio singer? Okay, I was is that the is that the largest hit tony believe it or not, if I had no alluders, if I had alluded as the highest charting record. But the biggest record to me is probably it depends when you're talking, and that's me

and you was not a that's my first solo record. Okay, it's okay only because at x tein wouldn't let me put my name on the record. So what really? Yeah? So yeah, so that record was just done and my that's that's the record that was done in Sacramento in my mother's house, in the room on the teeth on the teeth three, which I and I put it out. I gave it it John and the John Singleton they Polygraham, I shouldn't say ed, but they said I couldn't use

my arm, I couldn't use my name. So the second record I did was asked if you was on higher learning and they told me I couldn't use my name again, And I told John Singleton they couldn't use a song, and John called PolyGram and said, this record is gonna say rod fel sadik um. So the first my first solo record would have been just me and you. And the funny thing about it is Uh. That's when I first figured out I had this pass called Jocko on the T three, I was like, I called my godfather

James Levi. I used to play for the drummer for with Herbie head Uh the head Hunters, and I called him almost like who's that? Gave me a ride home and it took his bass album played for me when I was like fifteen. He was like Joao Jaco Jacko played for me and my mom. He so, I'm in velvet here in Oakland, James Levi is my godfather. Paul Jackson all those the whispers used to come and watch his plague and this band I was called tick Band.

And so I'm at the house one day and James go, hey, man, give him a ride home and talk to him and open up his heads. We got this four fifth y s L convertibly drive. He stopped buying phone booth, get on the phone and they take me about ten moles to my house. He pulls his base out, he gets on the ports. He plays for me and my mom for like thirty minutes and talk to me and my mom, which my mom don't know. My mom wouldn't know who anybody is in R and b R nobody so Jazz,

you don't even know that. So when I and then he leaves, and then I'm in my house making this record. When I made that record years later, and then once I make the record years later, I called, I said, I've seen this, passee Jocko. Now I knew all about Jocko. I'm like I called James, I said, who was that to gave me a ride home? Without blinking? He goes, what do you think it was? With Jocko? Stories? Oh? God, man, you know how many other random stories do you have

like that? M Ladies and gentlemen. I know you hate when my voice comes on and tells you you gotta come back next week. But you know good and well that we weren't going to give you the whole Angelotta

this one episode. So make sure you come back next week when Rathiolsa Dick talks to you know, Layah Sugar, Steve and Fon Tikolo and pay filled myself about his solo work, about touring, about songwriting, about movie scoring, about bacon, yes Bacon, and he drops a really awesome exclusive Jim, So next week quest Love Supreme, I will see you guys there much Love Supreme is a production of I

Heart Cupredio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Poe Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.