Questlove Supreme: John Oates

Quest. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode this time this really is.

A special episode of course, Love Supreme.

We have our Team Supreme with us. This is going to be a.

Special being kind of an instant too parter, I will save that our guest today simply not only accomplished musician, singer, songwriter, but in my opinion, he is hands down one half of one of the most successful duos of all time

I want to preface.

By saying that usually, uh, when we have guests on the show, I kind of like the one on one thing, just like one artist for Team Supreme. I know it's been easier to have a group aesthetic, but I feel like you get more in depth stories when it's one on one. And I'm not being a smart like by referencing one of their classic songs, but in.

My game to night Eaginal man that when that was the NBA.

Do you remember a certain age when that was the NBA theme song?

When when they had.

That who you don't remember this?

What man? Yo?

One on one they there was a promo they cut and it would be like, you know, you see bird and magic like you know, playing this motion and it was one on one. They cut it on one on one. That ship was amazing.

They used it for the old started game.

John.

Where are you right now as we speak? I'm in Nashville, Okay, And this is your home home?

Well, yeah, we still have a place out in Colorado where we lived for about twenty five years in the nineties into the two thousands. But yeah, we've been here now for about almost fifteen years. And yeah, it's a great place to make music.

See I see. So when were your Philly days over?

Oh? Man, you know that was a long long time ago. I think Daryl and I both moved to New York together in nineteen seventy two, and that's when we got our Atlantic Records contract and we made our first album in New York at Atlantic Records.

The one Top produced.

No No No, This is a Reef Martin Oh wow. A Reef produced our first two albums, an album called holl Oats, which hardly anybody knows about, and then the album Abandon Luncheonette, which is kind of the one that I think most people think is our first album was a second but Arif Martin produced both those and we couldn't have been in better hands. One of the greatest

So, you know, having you on the show is special for me at least because even though we had Todd on the show, I feel like I'm going to get way better mid to late sixties Philadelphia music community stories that otherwise my dad wouldn't have been able to tell me about, or you know, a lot of cats and that I've always wanted to know these stories about the music scene in Philly, especially right before Gamble and Huff started their empire.

Always been curious about that sort of thing. Were you born in Philadelphia?

I was actually born in New York City. My family was from New York, but when my father's job was relocated to Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia in nineteen I'm going to date myself. But hey, you all know, I'm old self. It doesn't matter fifty nineteen, fifty four, fifty three or fifty four. And so we moved in the whole. We moved our family, The rest of my the rest of our extended family stayed in the New York area. But no, so essentially, even though I was born in New York,

Okay, And what part of Philly were you in Pennsylvania?

Well, it was a little town called North Wales, which was near Lansdale Dale. It was about twenty miles north of Philadelphia.

Okay. Cool. Do you know what your first musical memory was?

I sure do, I absolutely do. Right after we moved to Pennsylvania, there was a place not too far away called Willard Grove Amusement Park. Okay, And now it was an air base as well, but anyway, at the time, it was an amusement park. And my folks took me there and Bill Haley and the Comets were playing in

And the Comets really so they were just performing at the.

They were in the they were performing at the amusement park.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I believe that I too saw a latter day Bill Haley beforemat Then we used to we we had something called the Steel Pier.

Oh. Yeah, I played at the Steel Pier.

Yeah, the Steel Pier in a Lank city. It was a Lank city, right or wild.

Wood Yep, No, it was in Atlantic City. And when I was a really little kid, around five or six, I sang at something called Tony Grant Stars of Tomorrow which was a kitty uh talent show at the Steel Pier.

In my dating myself, I had mentioned the word Al alberts Where you do you remember the Al alberts O case at all?

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was around that time, and there was a guy and it was actually before Dick Clark took over Bandstand and it was what was his name? There was a different host before Dick Clark, but it was during that period of time. It was in the mid fifties.

And uh so you you were there for like the the do Op era of Philadelphia.

Yeah, Duop and Jerry Blavett and all that stuff. Jerry Blavett was a big hero of mine.

Yeah, the radio show that he used to do from I think it was from Trenton where he'd play all B sides and man, I heard, you know, songs like Biolah by the Versatnes and you know, and Guided Missiles and you know these.

Songs that were just unbelievable and you know your your your father man Lee Andrews and the Hearts. Man, I mean you know, tick tick tick in the clock a league got it?

That's that's so dope.

So okay, during that period, I'm assuming that you're a teenager. Like for you, like when did you know? What was your moment of or your calling of knowing that you were going to be a musician?

Like how old were you? And was guitar always your weapon of choice? I was?

I just had I guess I had musical talent when I was a little little kid. You know, I would sing. I would sing these little songs. In fact, I have a recording of me singing a little children's nursery song that was done at Coney Island in one of those record booths, you know where you go into the booth and you put some money in and you'd sing and the little record would come out. I still have that record.

You play accordion?

No?

I mean if you were to pick it up, now, would you be?

I could fumble around on it, but but what happened was seriously my mother just thought. My mom said, you know he take some music lessons. Well, the only teacher was an accordion teacher, and you know he was doing all that Pennsylvani and you you know, polka stuff, that kind of stuff, and so, I mean I hated it. I literally I remember it. Used to sit in the closet. And then I think I took two or three lessons, and finally on the third lesson, the teacher went, he's

Okay, how old were you when you got your guitar?

About seven?

Okay, do you remember the first album that you yourself purchased.

I didn't purchase an album at the first. I purchased singles. It was always singles.

Okay, well, yeah, your first it was the first record that you got.

Oh man, let's see Shirley and Lee. Well it was the Everly Brothers Shirly Lee and uh, well it's probably an Elvis song too, I'm sure, and a Chuck Berry song, probably Johnny be Good or something like that.

As you were a teenager, how what was the you know.

I guess for a lot of us could say that, you know, I grew up in the era of the Philadelphia sound just being developed, you know, in their early seventies. But of course I know that a lot of those cats, like not only Gamble and Huff, but Bunny Siegler and all those guys were just local Philadelphia musicians.

So could you talk of just about.

That that environment atmosphere sort of in the mid sixties to the early seventies, like what was happening in Philadelphia musically?

Well, you know, during when I was a teenager living, you know, living right outside of Philly, you know, I would take the train down on the Reading Railroad into Center City and buy clothes and to go to the record Museum on Chestnut Street by records. And what I'd always do on Saturday night was I'd go to the Uptown And I went to the Uptown Theater almost every Saturday night. And oh, I saw the greatest of the greats.

So give me a typical give me a typical weekend.

Oh well, all right, you know I saw Sam and Dave, I saw you know, the Temptations, I saw Stevie wonder Do Fingertips when he was like twelve, when he first came out. I actually saw him play that song and I remember he jump on the drum kit and his little kid. I mean, man, there was so many great Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, the Four Tops, you know, all the all the great Motown. But you know Barbara Mason, Uh you know the Delphonics stylistics. Uh well, the Delphonics

Okay.

So you know again, I'm a Philadelphian, so I've not heard any shows about the Uptown. What would be the typical format of a show, like, for instance, if James Brown is coming to Philadelphia, would he normally play at the Uptown or was he at.

The time, Yeah, he would the Uptown Theater. Well, you know, it was part of it was part of the Chiplan's circuit. You know, it was the Apollo, the Howard and Howard Theater in DC, the Uptown in Philly.

I mean that was the circuit, you know, So, like, what would the format be like would shows? Would you go there at twelve and at afternoon and.

Stay there all day?

Or no, No, it was he there were evening shows. They were evening shows, and they would have a house band. They always had a house band, and part of the house band later became a lot of the cats who played with Gamble and Huff became the studio guys for Game on Huff. But in fact, Kenny Gamble might have even been playing piano in the house man Darrel. We'll tell you a little bit more about that too, because he he was He worked with with Kenny and Leon

It was an instrumental okay.

He had a small had a small studio on North broad Street and we recorded this track and Frank Virtue, who was the owner and the engineer, he said, man, you guys need some work. He said, I'm going to introduce you to somebody. He gave me Bobby Martin's number, and we went down and paid him a visit and he was working out of a small office just south of a city hall on Broad Street, and he arranged it and kind of he kind of you know, gave us a little professional you know, spit and polish and

What was your group situation before Hall of Notes or was Darryl you're well?

I had I had a band called the Masters, and Daryl had a group called the Temptones. Daryl's group was pretty much a four part an a cappella group, very similar to the Temptations. That's why they call themselves the Temptones. Really yeah, and my group was more of a combo, you know. It was funny I used that word combo. Nobody uses that word anymore, right, It was you know, guitar, bass, drums. We had a trumpet and a trombone and a saxophone. Uh.

So for you, though, as a teenager, did you instantly know that you wanted to be in the music business or were you just rolling with the win and see what would happen.

I don't think I had a choice, you know, And I'm not bragging when I say this, but I've never had a job. The only thing I've ever done is play music. Is this thing I've had to have in a job, was teaching guitar lessons when I was in college. So that's I'm a blessed, a very very grateful person because I got to do what I you know, what I think I was born to do.

All right, So how did you meet Darryl?

Well, it's a it's an unusual story. His he the Timptones had recorded on Jimmy Bishop's label. Jimmy Bishop you might know it was was the top DJ on w D.

As their family is legendary in Philly.

Oh yeah, and uh so Darryl. Darryl was signed to and I think it was Arctic Records. Uh, he'll tell you. He'll give you all the details on that. On his side. And this this group I had, as I said, it is called the Masters. And we made this track with Bobby Martin and went down to the record museum on Chestnut Street and said, hey, we made a record and the guy said, let me hear it, put it on the turntable, said what are you going to do? I said, well,

Yeah, I was going to say, I got to ask you about the seventies years.

But we but we did get you know, So my song is getting played on H A T and D A S. Darryl's song was getting played, so we were both aware of each other, but I didn't I didn't know him, and we were individually invited to a record hop that Jimmy Bishop was doing out in West Philly at the del Fi Ballroom. Del Fi Ballroom, right, you know. And so we went out there and we were standing backstage. It was an afternoon teenage thing. It was the Five

But John, excuse me, I have to ask you because it sounds like so regular. This isn't the no, this is in the sixties, correct.

Yeah, this was a team. This would have been nineteen sixty eight.

So the question is was it common Because DAS at the time was still an R and B station, right, And I'm guessing that Mary Mason and then we're playing nothing but R and B music. So how common was it that two dudes, too white dudes, two different groups had music on these black radio stations.

Well, did you ever hear our music?

I mean, yeah I did, But I'm just saying to you that in the moment though, in the moment.

Hey listen, we we were accepted by the black music community long before we were accepted by the white, white rock and roll community. So it was not a surprise to us at all when our records crossed over. You know, that was totally seemed normal to me. We just made the music that we made, you know. I mean, if you grow up in the Philadelphia area and you listened to Philadelphia radio and you're kid, you're gonna make the

But for you, but for you growing up in that time period, you weren't at all drawn to, uh, the other acts of the era, era like the Dovell's or.

You know, like the Frankie Avalin.

Dan You're like, yeah, you're talking about the Cameo Parkway era.

Yeah, yeah, Well, you.

See what happened was when Darryl and I first met, two of the guys in my band got drafted into Vietnam. My band fell apart. Daryl's group was kind of falling apart anyway, so I joined up with him as a guitar player, backup guitar player, and when both groups fell apart, he and I gravitated toward each other and we started we became songwriters. At the at the Schubert Schubert Building, guy the guy named John Madera, and John Madera was

That building that you were referring to was that kind of like the Brill Building was.

The Philadelphia's version of the Brill Building. It was the Super Theater building. Okay, we're still there, but there were offices in it at the time. And yeah, so that's how we started. And uh, you know, yeah, we knew all those guys, and you know, we were involved in that era. But as I said, the Dovels and Cheby Checker and those guys werena you know, they were they were they were the last year's model, you know, they were kind of going out.

I went to Performing Arts school, uh for elementary at least, even though it went up to high school. But oftentimes we go to that Schubert Building to learn like our musical craft, like take piano lessons over there, and take drum lessons over there on Broad Street. Yeah, so you get, you guys met when a gang fight was breaking out, like yes, in your mind, like even like was how typical? I mean, I guess I was born way after like

You know, I think in the sixties the city was much more integrated. There was, there wasn't as much violence. I think a lot of the you know, the black black power movement, black pride movement really started more in the seventies. And you know, by that time, Daryl and I had gone on to New York. But you know, and of course there was you know, there was racial stuff happening all over the country, but we felt I always felt very comfortable in Philadelphia, especially in the sixties.

So in your opinion, what year do you feel as though what we know is the sound of Philadelphia, or at least the first draft it does'tend to be the less strings like that was Philly International, but you know, like the earlier and trudest stage of like Gamble Records before Philly International.

Before it was a little more raw.

Yeah, So for you, like especially the stuff they did on Atlantic, when do you feel is like the actual sound of Philadelphia got established?

I think it happened around the same time, around nineteen seventy, I would say, I feel like, you know, like you said, the Little Sunny and the Intruders, the Delphonics, those records, they were street records. They were essentially do wop records with musical backing, you know, And it wasn't really until later on when Tommy Bell, I think, was responsible for adding a real high level of musical sophistication to what

Could you talk about the period that led up to the actual record deal with the Lenox.

Yeah, well, it goes back to the shop building. We were working with this guy, John Madera, and we were just songwriters. We were kind of staff songwriters, and we would, you know, we'd write some songs and he'd try to pitch him for us, and nothing was really happening. And he had done a deal with Chapel Music in New York City. I guess he sold his catalog. And when he sold his catalog, we kind of came along with

But that's act. That's no ex education. Though.

Yeah, man, in Philly was it as was the the what I will say, the mars Levy of it all.

Was that kind of a presence in Philadelphia as well.

Absolutely, it was all over the place. It was everywhere.

So when do you feel as though.

What I you know, for those who are listening to the podcast, I'm sort of speaking on a kind of the wise guy mafioso era of the music business where.

We thought, so he was following you, he was following you.

Well, yeah, I know we're following because we know each other.

But I'm speaking for the people.

I'm yeah, oh, yes, you represent the people.

However, you know, eventually, well, some of it's like that episode of I don't know if you remember the Sopranos when when uh uh, you know, Tony's guys were trying to shake down the Starbucks and the person was trying to like explain to them, like we're not a local, like this is this is a chain they and they sort of felt like dinosaurs.

It was like, oh, we can't shake.

Down, right And but for you when did that sort of did that era ever end?

I think it did, and I think it kind of went out in the seventies. And by that time, Daryl and I were so frustrated because we couldn't get anything going and every you know, it was very frustrating to have people like like what you did, but yet not respond to you. And we we we got to the point where we couldn't deal with it anymore, and we we kind of put our pulled our money together. We you know, we didn't have anything at the time. I mean, you know, if I could buy a cheese steak, you know,

What was it like working with him?

Because I became familiar with the Reef because of I guess my love for the average white band records. That's when I started seeing his name on a lot of the crow But at the time, were you excited were you familiar with his track record with like Aretha?

I was. I was very, very familiar with a Reef. I thought the Aretha stuff and in particular, his arrangements were so spectacular and so beautiful string arrangements and just his just his musical sensibility. And you know, he was an interesting guy because he was he was Turkish, and he had this deep, deep love for American jazz and American music. What was great about a Reef was he thought like a pure musician. He didn't care about styles and genres and what was hip or what was happening

So Okay, so back then I know that the this sort of I mean, the technology.

Is different than the eighties than it was the seventies.

But when you're working on an album, like is is he having is it one on one time with him or is it for him like a day job where it's like, Okay, I got a refill on Tuesday, and Donny Hathaway on Wednesday. Yeah, all notes, I'll squeeze you guys in him for three hours, so it's not like he's spending No, he.

Didn't squeeze us in. He didn't squeeze us in. We had full day sessions or full night sessions, mostly day sessions, and he usually did two sessions a day. So yes, we would be in there for maybe eleven to five or something like that, and he would take a dinner break and maybe he would have another session that evening. But we worked, I mean, we know, we worked. We were right there, I.

Mean right in the thick of it, and it didn't feel like cutting paste to you like in terms of you know, me and I spend more time with him.

I we felt, we felt that he cared as much for us as he did for any of the other artists working with and you know, he put us. We didn't have a band at the time. It was just Daryln and I, So our rhythm section for that second album was Bernard Purdy, Gordon Edwards, Richard T. H mc craken, Dave's Finosa. Yeah, these are the kind of players we were with, and so for the first time Darryl and

Yeah? Oh wow?

You know, so we had we had jazz musicians and R and B musicians and classical musicians, and you know, it was just an amazing thing to be He just he would hear our songs and then he would think, I know who's right for this, and he would make the call. We didn't even know who we'd be walking into that day, but we knew that whoever we walked into that day was going to be just right for the music we were making.

Okay, I have a question about abandoned Ntenette. Yeah, specifically She's Gone. Yep, yeah, Okay, So I've gone through this story a lot of times in the Pandemic where it's something about keys modulating that scare the living beg this out of me, and you know, I mean, be honest, like you guys were definitely for drama with the the end build up of She's Going, But whose idea was it to just do those five modulations?

Like is this going to be the key? You know? Is this going to be the key? Is going to be.

Talking about.

At the very end of she's going there's like just just are you know, like in a soap opera where you have.

That sort of thing. So there's a part of the.

Song or like the end of I'm trying for something for our for our listeners understand Love on Top by Beyonce, like Growing Up, Yeah, it's magic, it's like fourteen times whatever, yeah.

Right, or Golden Lady by Stevie.

But the thing is, to me, it's I always knew the boogie man was waiting for me at the end of every Mirror.

You got to get over this at some point, man.

I'll tell you what.

I you know, I believe that that was That was a reef's idea to do that, and it was it's kind of a cheap shot to modulate to to kind of you know, to Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna make this song more exciting because I'm gonna modulate up a half step. I'm gonna take it up. But I'll tell you what, Darryl and I have modulated four times in that song. We never modulated again in the rest of our career. That's all I got to say about that, okay.

But there's also okay, what's even stranger about that? Is one of the very first musical videos I've ever seen.

Was She's Gone. One of the strangest things.

I believe where I see She's going.

I think, Jerry Blabbitt, I know where you saw it.

You saw it, you saw I'm Philadelph a TV on a dance show, on a teenage show.

I did.

We got a store, I got a story. I got a story for you.

So the thing is is that I remember I was I was five years old.

I believe that you guys actually did have a devil.

You know, a woman was a devil. So whatever the lyrics were, I payed the devil to replacement. I remember you guys sitting on a you guys were sitting on a couch, and I just.

Remember a devil was running around in this video.

Which the thing is is that, you know, for listeners that don't know music, videos was a promotion tool so in case you couldn't go overseas and tour, they could at least have something to play on those top of the Pop shows or Shindig or any of those shows that you weren't able to get to you know, if you weren't big enough to fly to Europe, so you would make performance videos. But soon afterwards, uh, they started putting some concepts in there, like Frank Zappa do some

Well, you have to remember this was over ten years before MTV.

Yes, yeah, what happened, And I'll tell you what happened.

She's going to begin to get some popularity, was on the charts. They wanted us to lip sync our song at a show in New Jersey or at the at the Steel Peer. It was called ed Herst Summertime at

Oh wow, it never wants it. That's so weird, Like I have a list of child memories that not once anything like yo, I gotta I totally forgot to see. Was it ever on YouTube? It is?

You can watch it. So we so we did this and they got so angry. They got so pissed off at us because they thought we were mocking them, and I guess in the way we were. But anyway, so they told us. They got mad. They called, they called Atlantic Records and said, these guys will never get played on Philadelphia radio. Who do they think they are? Well, oh, it was. It was bad, and we had a backpedal to all this stuff with the record company and we were just having a crazy time because we were that's

You know, my dad had a lot of records in the house.

Shortly thereafter, almost immediately as that song is going to the charts, I know that Tavars it also covered She's Gone, So there was This is almost the same similar situation with the Fifth Dimension in Dinah Ross, like releasing Love Hangover at the same time, like Tavars and Hall of Notes are kind of fighting for airplay time for She's Gone at the time.

Were you guys cool?

No, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but not quite. We have released We had released She's Gone and went into the top forty, but it didn't go much higher than that. Then after that, Tavaris recorded and went to number one. It was a number one R and B record.

Right, Okay, that's what I do, the Tavares version.

And people said people, people said, oh, man, you believe it's just number one R and B record. Darrenly are like, yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. And then we released it again after Tarvaris, when Sarah Smile was out and it went into the it was I would think it went to number two.

Man, okay, but you got you guys were fine and cool with that.

Then you know, hey, no, I was happy.

But even Lou Rawls got that song.

That's right.

The next record with war Babies, could you talk about working with Todd Todd Rundren on that record.

Yeah, Well, we had moved to New York City, and so the war Babies record was a direct a reaction to leaving Philadelphia and being in New York and experiencing New York and the difference between New York and Philadelphia. New York was so big, much bigger and more faster and chaotic, and you know, and and we we really you know, even though the Abandoned Lunch and Net was a great record, it's still one of my favorites. It

So for your the next record, I mentioned this at the Rock and Mall Hall of Fame. Uh the record.

Yeah, I know what you're gonna say, Who's.

Whose idea was it for the cover design to do the because you know, the Androgis thing was coming into play with what Bowie was doing, and I think, like I think the Stones did, it would go ted suit like for you what was the the marketing idea of that cover and.

It was That's exactly what it was. It was. It was a moment in time. That's what was happening in New York City and Greenwich Village at the time. You know, it was Rick Darringer.

Tyrung Gren, Mick Jagger, Bowie and we were you know, we caught up in that whole down scene that was happening in Philly, in New York or rather, and we met this guy named Pierre Laroche, who was the stylist for all those records, for every.

One of those records that you mentioned, and I remember we had dinner with him and he said, I remember what he said. He said, I will immortalize you. And you know what, it's the only the only album cover anyone ever asked us about, and it has nothing to do with the music inside.

But see about hdo But okay, of course, the breakout single from that is Sarah Smile. At this time, are you guys coining the term blue eyed soul?

Like?

How you know?

We never really liked that phrase, you know. To me, to be honest with you, I just think, you know, it's to me, it's kind of offensive. And I'll tell you why I think it. It kind of takes white guys trying to sound black guys, okay, And I don't think that's what we do. I think we sound like the way we sound, and if we've got soul, then good and I hope it comes through, and you know, to me, and I don't. I don't want to get too philosophical about this. But to me, soul is not

It's very similar to what Bonnie read that yeah on our show as well with Crutch of the Blues and her experience growing up listening to that stuff.

Other Avana is like you know, the I think from when I listen to artists. You know, if it was white artists, I think, more so than anything, you just want to see those artists give credit to what they grew up on.

You know what I'm saying.

I don't think it's you know what I'm saying, And you know that's what I kind of always saw with you guys, and just with the white artists that kind of fell into that, you know, that what you call blue out soul, like a Mike McDonald or whatever. You know, they always bigged up the stuff that they grew up on. And I think the only time it really becomes an issue is when you know, a white artist is.

Like, oh no, this is just all me.

It's like, no, the fuck it ain't, you know what I mean, That's that's where the problem comes in. But I agree, I mean, it's you can find the elements of soul in all music. It's a feeling more so than it is just a genre or whatever.

You're You're absolutely right, it's we you know, we were all products of what came before us. You know, we we there's not one person on this planet who just comes out of the womb and is a total, unique original. Maybe there are a few. What we do and who we are is about our It's our It's in our DNA, it's in our upbringing, it's in the place we live, it's in the experiences that we experience, and that's who

Facts.

I think on this record, well, one you guys are producing it, and two, yeah, you have the monsters on here. So I could assume that Ed Green is drumming on Sarah's Smile.

I believe it was at Green on Sara. We had three out three drummers on that record.

Well, based on them drum fills, I hope that you know Ed Greham of Barry White fame and whatnot.

And also on bass h Leland.

Clark, Yes, yes, and we had Scotti Edwards as well on the.

Base and here's Steve right back. Yeah.

I love when you're using when you're using these uh, these monster musicians, like can you just because I will

You know, musicians through their reputation obviously, you know. But the Silver album that won with Sarah Small on it, that was the first album that we made in California. We made that in LA. And we made that in LA for a reason. We had an interest for Bond, who was actually from Philadelphia, who was in our band very briefly, and he went to LA to try to make his mark as a session player and a producer.

So there was was there truth to the rumor that you guys were initially going to do something for the Rocky soundtrack because of the Philly connection at one point for the first movie.

Yeah, there was a song called Grounds for Separation. Grounds for Separation was on on that album and uh so Lesser Stallone. Uh he used that song as temp music in the in the in the movie when they were editing. And you know how it, you know it is with a film. If you start using music, you kind of you kind of get get married to it and you can't demo.

That's the movie game.

You know, I have no idea why it didn't happen, but it was a big mistake.

Your Oh it's nail on the matole. Okay, all right, I don't know you know what, I.

Don't know who. I don't know who thought that was wasn't a good idea. But whoever thought it wasn't a good idea wasn't too sure. Actually asked Daryl about that. Yes, Darrel about that?

Who have a good I will ask Darryl about that? Okay, Well, okay, for what I what I'm allowed to ask about him was were you his first clients? Yes, okay, so you had him when he was like a twenty year old, like out of college or something.

Well, let's if you can, if we can wind back a little bit to that story I told you about when we were going from Philly to New York auditioning at Chapel Music. On one of those trips, when we went and played our new songs for Chapel Music when we were songwriters, this young kid, Tommy Mattola was in the room. He was a song plugger for Chapel Music at the time, and after one of those sessions he came up to it said, well, you know, what do

The Bigger and both of us records that has a rich girl on Can I ask was it was your label?

Ever?

Do they ever ask you, guys to slightly change the lyric to get on radio. I'm only okay, I'm only asking this, and I hate bringing up the story. When you're young and you live with strict parents, it's not like it comes with a manual on words that you're allowed to say and not allowed to say, it's just that, you know, it's a curse word if you get hit and you said the word and didn't.

Know it was a curse word. So of course I'm reading the song lyrics and I kept singing it's a bitch girl, and I sat, oh wow.

Yeah, okay, okay, let's let's think about that. Let's think about that in the context of the music that's out there today.

I'm not blaming off for it.

No, no, no, I'm not. I'm laughing about it because it seems so silly to me. It's like crazy and you okay, so you know what they you know what? You know what happened with that? It was okay, here, here's here's I messed up the music businesses. It was okay for the album cut, but the single. We had to change it for the single. So they they they made Daryl go in the studio and sing brich. He had to put an R in the words. If you listen to this single, it's britch. You can barely tell,

I guess the intention was bitch.

I'm confused.

Way the intention was bitch? Yeah, the lyric was bitch, but you couldn't say that, you.

Couldn't on the radio and all my life, I did not all my life and all my life.

What do you think it was? She's a girl?

Yeah, but then then he goes back and says, it's a bitch girl.

He does.

You know what?

Okay, I'm not the only one that in this moment.

Are you familiar with the Philippe when One of a Kind love and fair story?

No, I'm not familiar to the story, but he's one of my favorite singers of all time.

Yeah, No, he's He's definitely out there. He did a rogue move. I always wanted to know when how did he get kicked out the group? And this they can get it kicked out the group. But this sort of put the group on high alert that he could be rogue.

It on the radio and then like kind of shit and he and he didn't deny it at all, So.

You know, I like him even more now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So could you could you talk about in your opinion, because you guys won't basically have kind of hit your stride at least with the hits until four years later. So that period in between, like with the Nigga Bays record with Beauty on Backstreet and uh, the the Livetime record like oh and also the I think Ecstatic for those five records, what was generally happening with you guys and in terms of where he wanted to go.

And yeah, I can I can tell exactly what's happened. So we went down the La do that silver album and it was successful with Sarah Smile. Then she She's Done. That was successful. Then Rich Girl came on the next one that was successful. So I so we were a role and we were playing bigger you know, bigger arenas and things like that. Then came the Beauty on a Backstreet novel. And what happened was and I can I can tell this story because you know, God bless him.

Oh this is the year before After the Love is Going so okay. So he worked with you guys first, and.

I got to tell you about it After Love Is Gone too, because when we were getting ready to do the album with David Foster, he said, I got a song for you guys. Boy, oh yeah, and he said here check he had written it with Dave Graydon, yes, And so he sat Me and Darrel were sitting in his living room and he played it on the piano and he can't sing for ship, but he's an amazing Danna player, and he was singing and he was doing after the Love Is Gone, and we're like, yeah, yeah,

What did you think about when you heard the Earth Winning I was just curious.

And he went and did it with earth Wind and Fire.

When you you heard Earth Win five version, was that like? Did did you get it then?

In a way that maybe you didn't get when when David trying to sing it.

I got it the first time.

It's also fronte.

It's also a little weird because even Philip himself says that that song for him was sort of like, yeah, it was a success, but you know, you also got to understand that Charles Stephanie just died and they I'm not saying they got back. It's weird to think of all in all as the earthword and fire gets by

Just as far as love the.

Definitive slow jam like yeah the Blue Eye like that, I.

Mean, yeah, we would have crushed it.

But it speaks to David Foster because the song was banging either way.

Hey listen, Dave. David Foster wrote a great so he's an incredibly talented amazing guy, but he wasn't right for us as a producer. But at least, you know, we did get to work with him for a couple of albums. And then you mentioned Static. We brought David to New York to record that record because we didn't want to be in l A anymore. And he in the middle of that record, he said, what am I doing here? You guys are making this record yourself. You don't need me.

It's almost like you guys became a brand new group with the Voices record.

Another another career misstep. Really we uh we We were finally back in New York where we wanted to be, and we had a band that could that we finally achieved what we knew we needed to do. We had developed a live band that could play live and kick ass and we could take them in the studio and that. But we were also producing ourselves. There was no one else except us in the engineer and so we did it. We made the kind of record we wanted to make, and I think it was just a very inspiring time.

Speaking speaking of your bands, you know, by that point at least, that to me was like the last era of musicianship where not only did you care about the artists, but you also cared for their band too. And you guys had a really charismatic band. Longtime fans will instantly recognize that. You know, the great g Smith was your guitar player long before he was a Yeah, the SNL musical director of like the eighties and whatnot.

Also Tom t boam Walk.

One of the greatest of all time.

Dude, do you know how crust I was so Steve? Do you remember they were coming.

On the ninth show to perform and they had to cancel because we booked you in twenty ten and Tom had passed.

The morning the morning of Yes, but could you talk about that band, but just your whole.

Just your whole crew by that point, like is eighty when you sort of solidified that band.

Yeah, that's when it started. That's when that band jailed right after the Voices album and that band uh Here again was finally the you know, we still were in that search for that ultimate band that could play live and be in the studio and that that's when we found h. Ge joined us first, and he brought in Mickey Curry on drums. Right. Mickey was a friend of his who had played in bar bands with him, and Mickey had never played in a professional band other than

But totally.

We were looking. We had Ge and Mickey and we really needed it. We knew we needed a really great bass player and we had done some auditions and most of the guys were not up to up to it. And we had come down to two guys and there was this one kid from Long Island. He was tall and skinny, he had a great haircut, he was a good looking guy. And then there was Tom Woke who

You're serious.

Yeah, Darrel said, let's get the ball guy, and that's how we got That's how we got t Bone man. It was the best decision we ever made.

Ever talked to himself out a gig. Wow, he didn't eat.

Was he serious or just don't know whether he was serious or not. But if he wasn't serious, it was an asshole. So it doesn't matter word.

One voice is the original voice.

The original version of every Time You Go Away was on that record? Yeah, Was that ever released as a single off that record? Was that just an album cut?

It was? It was the last track on the B side. And you know, back in the days when you're making vinyl records, the last track on the B side was was either the art record that you couldn't fit anywhere else or it was like the throwaway record, and he didn't think of it. If you listen to our version, it sounds like a Stone Stacks, Volt Stamm and Dave track. I mean it is. It's real, authentic and real raw.

Longtime QLs head should also know that piano Palladino is playing based on the Paul Young version of every Time You Go Away.

Why were they two album covers for voices?

Because because we were trying to control everything, we didn't want the record company to tell us what to do, so we made our own album covers black and white. And we didn't know what to do. So we took a picture of Darryl and a picture of me and we tore him in half and we pasted it together and we sent it to the record company, said put this on the cover, and they they didn't want to do it, but they did it because they had to they because we made them do it. And what happened

That's crazy because I like the black and white version better.

That's because you have good taste with.

The transition of the eighties, were you guys thinking about, you know, the versioning new wave movement or the stuff that like Gary Numan was doing with drum machine technology and whatnot, Like how how is modern technology coming into to play with the band?

Uh?

Starting with that, because I think it was notable to not just use the drum machine as a click track, but to actually make it part of the song.

Were we were using something called a rolling comfy rhythm. It was a little wooden little wooden box, little square box. It had four presets rock one rock, two bossa Nova and samba, and you had a rotary knob that would you could adjust the tempo by a rotary nob. But it didn't tell you how what the temple was. It was just you just had a feeling. We would use that for a feel for just when we were trying you know, kind of going over the track and trying

Yes, it does.

And all we did was add add a couple of instruments to it, bass, guitar, you know, some little pads, and that's the way we put it out. So it really it was supposed to be a demo and that's why we kept a copy rhythm on it, just like that.

I always wanted to know go on my forty five.

On my forty five of Kiss on My List, I believe the B side was Africa. Is that you guys doing a sort of a your Bo Diddley homage there?

Or Yeah?

That was my That was my song that I wrote for my girlfriend at the time, who was a model working around the world, and she was she was in Africa, and I just.

Thought it was kind of funny Africa.

Yeah, like I don't know, it was kind of feel Yeah, Africa was just one of those songs where I constantly had it on rotation on my forty five. You know, if you put the arm over to the right. Then you're gonna have the song repeat over and over and over again. And I just always remembered, like the summer of nineteen eighty, like that was always the I just always kept it on the B side for the Private Eyes record. All right, I got to cut to the

If I can't go for that is not.

Played, Could you please give us the story of how that song came to be because it's such it's such a reverence the way that it's just stripped down and sounds sounds so revolutionary.

That the session was over, everyone had gone. Me, Darryl and the engineer were in the studio and we were an electric lady. And Darryl walked out into the studio with the electric piano and here again the rolling Company rhythm, which always sat on his pianel, so we could basically work through tracks. And he had an idea. I guess he had that idea in his head, but he never said anything to me or anybody. It was just maybe

Whose idea was to make it sound as stripped down because to me, that drum machine is such a radical sound to it.

I mean, there's two versions of it.

The twelve inch has more brighter drum mixed to it, but the album cut version.

I can't describe to me.

It was almost like an improved version of the drums that slide was.

That album you know, there's lit going on. That had that same quality to it that you said. It was stripped down and raw and it was dry. There was just this thing. I mean sometimes when when you know you don't have to have a lot if it's the right combination of you know, of tonalities. When you get the right tonalities and they're not fighting each other, they all have their place, you know, they got they're all in the right place. That's all you need. You don't

No One told you, guys like this group might be undercooked a little bit, like it needs something else or nobody.

Nobody told us anything because we never let.

Anyone in the studio. I love it.

Just the engineer engineering the band. Yeah, no record comfort people.

It's the great engineers from Electric Lady. I don't know what's what's going on, must be something in the water over there. I have a question for you. John was private eyed the first album that you did go to Electric Lady forks. I know you went there for a few Yeah.

I think we did voices at the Hit Factory. I'm pretty sure voices was done at the Hit Factory. Uh. And then we started Private Eye at the Hit Factory. And Darryl and I both lived in the village. We both lived very very close to Eighth Street, and we just wanted to walk to the studio. That's that's why we picked Electric Ladio. We wanted to be able to walk. I wanted to be able to walk to the studio and walk to Balducci's and that was that.

Was that was the criteria for for for me, at least my era of Electric Lady.

There's this you know, revered thing for.

For Hendrix, like wow, was the House of Indrix. But back then was it like that or was it just like, Hey, there's a studio on Eighth Street, let's just go there and make a record. Yeah, yeah, I mean sure didn't have a vibe to it.

It was, Yeah, it had a vibe. There was no doubt. It was at a vibe. And Eddie Kramer used to used to pop in and out, uh, you know, and and you know, you walk in there and there was that big mural that went down the hallway, psychedelic mural. But but the reality was it was on a street and we could walk to it.

So okay, it almost took ten years for you to reach the promise of what you were I guess initially planning on doing back in the early Atlantic days. But as a duo, Like, how are you two getting along with this newfound success?

We've always gotten along really well. We we we really leave each other alone. You know. Back in the early days, you know, we were together constantly and traveling constantly always, you know, everything was shared. But as we got older and as we got more successful, you know, we lived separate lives with separate families, you know. And but but we you know, we met as teenagers. So it's almost like a brotherhood. You know, it's almost like it's a

Uh.

And it's amazing, to be honest with you, that we were still able to work together. You know, we we do our own thing. We do separate projects. Uh, you know, I'm gonna I'm doing a tour next week, actually an acoustic tour with a guitar player friend of mine here in Nashville, And Darryl's going to do a tour. He's doing some a new solo album tour, and then we'll come back and play together, you know, probably over the summer.

So you know, I know that, I for one, am very tired of anytime someone sees me alone in public, nine times out of ten they're going to ask me where's the rest of the guys at.

Where's the band? I'm almost certain you get asked more every day.

Yeah, where's all?

You know they think that they think that we just you know, we're just well, you know, our company is called Two Headed Monster, So that gives you an idea of what, you know, what it's all about.

I remember one time I was sitting in a dressing room, and it wasn't long ago, sitting in a dressing room and I was by myself in the dressing room, and one of these security guys at the venue stuck his head in dressing and goes and he looked at me. There was nobody else in the room, he said, which one of you guys is holding oats? I said, I said, I guess, I guess that's me.

I don't know, all right. So for H two, oh, first of all, while on this streak, what is the what is the pressure like for you?

Like going into prived, I said, it's like, damn, we got to top you know, voices And with HGO it's like, oh man, we had like four top ten singles with the Privateized record. Like, are you feeling the pressure at the time or is it still like we still have to prove ourselves or do you now feel like by this point at least like you've arrived.

I think, well, we definitely felt like we arrived. We felt like we were doing the right thing. You know, we had to achieve what we wanted to achieve, were producing ourselves, had the band that we wanted that we could take live and be in the studio, and we thought that that's we were there and things were rolling. You know, the band was amazing, the vibe was amazing, We're writing really great songs. And I don't think that there was no exterior pressure. We didn't have pressure from

I've heard rumors of it, but can you tell me whether or not. I don't know if it happened that we are the World Sessions or whatever. Was it truth to the rumor that Michael Jackson actually told you guys that Billy Jean was inspired by the DNA of I can't go for that.

That. He didn't say that to me. He may have said that to Darryl. He did say. He came backstage with his brothers when we were playing in California in LA and he said, he said, I can't go for that. It's my favorite song to dance too. He goes, I dance, he goes, I work out all my dance routines to that grouve. So just that and that alone kind of tells you that if he liked it that much, he must have said to himself, Man, I'm gonna write something sounds like that.

Yeah, what about so with That's what that said? Man Eater and part Time.

Lover, Oh, what are your thoughts on on that?

You know, Man, I wrote the chorus of man Eater as a reggae song because I had come back from Jamaica and wrote I wrote it as I wrote it as a reggae song.

It was like it was like it was like you know, and so.

I wrote, it's like like lovers rock kind of thing.

Yeah, and I and I and I played it for Darryl and he was like, man, he goes, I love this, he goes, he goes, I don't know, man, he goes, I don't know if reggae groove is right for Hallos. And I said, well, what do you got? And he went on, gone, gone, gone, okay. And I mean, at least that was smart enough to listen to him.

You know the question I always wanted to know. All right, this is more of an arrangement question.

Sometimes there will there will be some songs that get released and in your mind and retrospect in your mind, you think that the course happens a lot.

Great example is.

Uh uh Fonte, the the rock Master Scott and the Dynamic Threes. The roof is on fire like of course that powerful, but it only gets said once in the song.

And that's like.

That's what I said, Yeah, you gotta gotta you gotta wait five minutes.

Before it even gets to that part.

And for me, a song like one on one, I always swore to God that the whole back and forth between you and Darryl a fan.

I get to night one on what a fan I get you? Nah, Like that only happens once.

Yet in my mind, that's that's a course that just goes on and on, which is so tricky.

Whoh and that's a very intricate Uh.

That song has a lot of intricate background parts, like whose idea was it too? I'm surprised that it was a hit because you guys didn't take the easy route and just saying the easy part of the course, but there were other sub courses in there.

We really pride ourselves on those background arrangements. And that's a Philly thing. I mean, that's really that's coming from that doop background vocal thing. And if you listen to some of our songs, and I think a lot of people don't realize this, but a lot of our songs, the hook is actually the background part. Yes, it's it's very unusual. People don't realize that, but the hook, like We're out of touch, that's just a giant background vocal

You want to know how I know that that's true. Maybe five years ago I got the Master two. I can't go for that, And just as an experiment, I took the vocals and put them over where the background should be, and I took the backgrounds and put them where the vocals were.

Yeah me to this, no, yeah, yeah to this day.

I mean I've been playing it and my DJ sets to see if one person notices that Darryl singing over the chorus music and the chorus is over it. Not one person has noticed it yet. And that's all the only version I played.

That's cool. I didn't realize that's that I'd like. I would like to hear that.

How did you guys get Family Man from Mike Oldfield?

That was a that was just an accident. We were making the record and one of our roadies are keyboard tech who was helping us with keyboards. He came in one day and he said, hey man. He was a big Mikeae Oldfield fan, and he said, I heard this new Michae Oldfield record. He goes, and there's a vocal on it. Because Michae Oldfield was predominantly instrumental, and he said, there's this cool song with this girl singing this vocal this vocal tune, and he said, you guys got to

I also remember you did two versions of that video. One version was like extremely long, like it was almost like again the early days of MTV where they just need a lot of content. I definitely remember, Yes, it cut like ten versions of Leave It.

But there was two versions of.

I'm just I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing, yes.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, Well, Gotti and Cream.

Re mixes of Owner of a Lonely Heart too, Like there's one hundred mixes.

Trevor wasn't messing around, Trevor Warren. Yeah, but I remember you guys did two versions of an extended version of Family Man, which is like eight nine minutes long.

And yeah, yeah, we were always doing club mixes, you know on some of those records.

Did you have anything to do with that? You and Darryl or did somebody else?

Just well, the first club mix that we had success with was for Satis and so with jelly Bean Benitas, right, Billy did that one, and then we then the really extreme stuff that we did later on on the on the Big Bamboom Mountain by Arthur Baker.

And an important summit meeting of a record you were part of USA for Africas we are the world?

What was what was that experience?

Like Quincy Jones and Lena Richie and Michael Jackson, they were smart because they knew that it was the American Music Awards were going on in LA. And then back in those days, you know, you only had two things. You had the American Music Awards and the Grammys. They were really it was not a million different award shows like there is today. And so they knew that everybody kind of who was anybody in pop music was going to be in LA for American Music Awards because you

Oh, everyone signed.

Everybody sign it. I think this is the only copy that exists. I mean, and I mean everybody.

So we're looking at the sheet music and everyone's signature from We.

Are the World.

That's amazing and for once, for once, I had the presence of mind to go around and get.

Everybody, oh yeah else.

Even got Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder to sign this thing.

So that's myself. How long was the process for you?

It was a couple of hours. But you know what we did was we just sang the chorus. We said, we all sang the chorus in unison, and we said, okay, everybody just throw a harmony part on and you know, of course he had a good room for the great singers, so everybody just picked apart, sang a third third of you know, octaves or whatever it was, and uh, and then everybody broke down and then they did all the the solo solo stuff.

So the backgrounds were done. First one went home first year.

And it didn't it didn't take long, It really didn't. There was a couple of little snap There was a couple of little issues where you know, you know, you put a bunch of a list talent in the same room and somebody's gonna think they're gonna start producing, and uh. There was a couple of little things where I won't mention any names, but Stevie.

Yeah, we we had we had Hughey Lewis on this show.

Did he tell you the same story?

Uh?

No, no, No, I don't know. I know, yeah, what's your story? You know?

Stevie made some suggestions he he thought would be a good idea, and it kind of kind of derailed the whole thing because they were trying to get a lot done, you know. And uh and finally, you know, Quincy Jones just came out from behind the console, you know, behind the glass, and he just once Quincy came out, it was like and I remember, I think I think Ray Charles said something like, hey man, I think he said, as I recall, he said, it is his line on

Got imagine Stevie versus Ray.

I just love it.

I know they were friends, and I know it's all in fun sounds hilarious.

Wait you guys. Were you guys also on the sun City record as well? Yeah?

I was.

I don't know, was that recording them the same way or was.

It just like no, that was all the individual stuff. Yeah, it was a group thing, but it was small groups. I think Stephen brought different people to and it was all done in New York in a small studio in the city.

You know, you guys are basically the gold standard, like for you was it Were there any regrets of that period, in that rise of being at the top of your game, of having like number one singles, number one albums, Has there been something that you haven't achieved or was that you could have redone or something.

I think think that.

People perhaps to realize that when you have this mega success like that in the pop world, the biggest thing that you lose is time. You lose time, and you lose you lose yourself because there's so much demands on your time for obviously to make the music, to promote the music, to tour, to play live, to write new songs. It just never seemed to end, really and I think when we got it right after, you know, we did we did three things that were really big. We did

That was down.

Because I don't think you can sustain that sort of success. I think it's very difficult. Very few people can sustain that sort of success for a lengthy period of time. And I think what we did was we stepped away. And maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do from a business point of view. Commercially, of course it wasn't, But it was a smart thing to do for psychic life, you know, for life.

How you know how difficult or challenging was it to pull off the Kendrick and Ruffin.

Project, because you know.

I've read a lot of autobiographies of various Temptation members, and you know, they don't look too fondly of that that reunion album that came out in nineteen eighty one, So I don't know, I would assume that, you know, when they're doing this album with you in nineteen eighty four eighty five, that the sort of Temptations proposed seven member reunion thing went a bust and they both want their separate ways to do the separate projects.

But for you, what was it like? You know, I know that you.

Two were big Temptations fans, but at the time, you know, was it rose colored glasses like it was exciting or maybe I don't know.

We we were asked to reopen the Apollo after the Apollo had been closed for a bit for to be renovated, renovated, and it was a big you know, we Darren and I felt like it was a big honor. It was

Wowad for us, it was a full circle.

We had we had met because of the temptations in a sense, and now we were we had done that, and it really felt like we had completed this thing in our in our life.

You know, was there something in your mind you wanted to do after this circle had completed, because it seems like a whole era.

So now I wanted, I wanted to live. I wanted to I want to do all the things that I had never done. You have to remember I was on the road from nineteen seventy two until nineteen eighty six, and I never ever stopped, not one time. It was two breaks and that whole time.

Had you made a list?

Yeah? My list was was, uh, live in a house.

Get me, get married, have a kid.

And that's exactly what I did. I I sold everything I owned, I move, I moved to Colorado and I met my future wife and we build a house and had a kid. And for about ten years I hardly did any music. And wow, I lived in the mountains and I kind of became a different person. So it was just something I needed to do.

All right.

One one last question I have. I know that you're you once lived next door to Hunter S.

Thompson.

Yeah, oh god, what was that shit like psychedelics.

Well, that's that's what happened when I when when I when I left New York City and I kind of started my life over again, moved to Colorado. I was with my my girlfriend who later became my wife, and we we found a little piece of property. She actually found it in Woody Creek, Colorado, which is and we we it was it was just a piece of land with a little cabin and we were going to build

I put a.

Jumper cables on it, I jumped it, I started it. I drove it up onto his lawn. I parked it directly in front of his kitchen door, and I left it there. And I knew him for twenty five years. He never said a word to me about it.

He did it.

He probably did it in the middle of the night, yes, where it just appeared there. Wow, you We used to go up to his house and we used to watch Monday night football with him and the sheriff.

And he did something normal like watch football.

Oh that he was a major sports junkie. He was a huge sports fan. That's all his whole thing. And then then we went to the funeral too, Johnny dep did you know where where they shot his ashes out of the cannon and all that we were there for that. It was wow. I didn't know they did it at the funeral.

Wow, wow, wow.

Just who you want for a neighbor when you're trying to get away from it.

All right, he was actually you know what though, he was actually a really good a good guy. He he liked being Hunter Thompson. You know, he liked he liked the image. You know, he liked the hat and the cigarette holder and the motorcycle with a glass of Burt you know gin. But down you know, he was a Southern gentleman. He was from Kentucky and if he liked you, and it broke all that down. He was he was

Well, we thank you for coming on the show and we have a team Supreme Fan Digolo, Boss, Bill Sugar, Steve like you, I'm quest Love.

This would be great, John O, thank you very much.

West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.