Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I am your host Quest Love. Uh, this is Team Supreme.
Why are you? How are you how doing.
Something?
What?
I want to know? How many rooms you have in your house? Because are you in like a nineteen room mansion?
Stop saying that this is my house? Just the last time we spoke, I was somewhere else.
And but you have more artwork than any human I know.
Yeah, you've met met my parents, so yes, I do. I got I'm surprised I don't got a payre of our guests on my wall somewhere.
Yeah, I see.
Your dad gave me one of yourself, one of your aunt Deanna and your dad and Melbour and Lindsay.
Oh mystery voice? Yeah, okay, okay, who was that mystery voice? Hey? Steve? How are you? Bro?
You know, if you delete something off an iTunes playlist, all you gotta do is hit Apple X and it all comes back app You know what Apple X? You know command X? I mean help your brother anyway?
Oh delete?
I leave rally one day in fourteen years, Steve, Yeah, somehow a playlist gets to.
You in the history of it Tonight Show, Sugar Steve has been a constant presence almost every day, and the one day he leaves, things don't fall apart.
I kept things together, so yes, that things don't fall apart.
What's up everybody dot.
My song title.
It was a good album title as well.
Fan Tickelo what's that brother? What's going on? Bro? What's going on? Miss Jane? It's very nice to meet you.
Lovely meeting you.
Yeah, my my aunt she was a big fan of your records and I would always go to her house and like play your stuff, and I just always remember just your album covers. You just always look really classy, really pretty, and just always just just a really really classy singer. So it's really an honored to sit with you today. I appreciate it.
Oh, it's my pleasure, and I appreciate you educating you.
Yes, ma'am.
Absolutely, Ladies and gentlemen, our guest today is an extraordinary singer and artists. Basically our guest today. You know, I was introduced to her via my father's illustrious record collection. A lot of jazz in there, and of course you know the Black Jazz label, and I will say that all the albums of our Guest Today and her former husband, the Doug carn definitely played a major role in my personal growing up. Basically just some of the best what
I call spiritual jazz. I mean, there's so many titles for it. Some people say fusion, spiritual jazz. I don't know what you call it. But there's also a point in the seventies when our Guest Today became part of the incredible stable of artists that contributed to the sound of Philadelphia, helm by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff with such legendary songs as you know, free Love and Don't let It Go to Your Head and my Love Don't Come Easy, and then of course you know the immortal
close and then close. Not to mention my song was the Flame of Love. Like, there's so much to talk about, but you know, April is Jazz Appreciation Month, and basically our guest Today she makes jazz, she makes R and B, she makes disco. She does it all and she's worked
with all the legends. All the legends work with her, Kenny Gamble, Leon Huf, Jerry Butler, Eddie Laverert, Philip Simon or o'garner, Billy Paul, text To Janzell, The Temptations, Grove Washington, Junior, James Dir George Do just everyone, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome so overdue our guests, the incomparable Gene car Into, Quest Love Supreme.
Thank you very much, thank you for coming. How are you?
I'm wonderful. How's everybody doing well?
Doing well?
We're great massive fans of yours and uh, you know, I thank you for doing this. You know, with a lot of our guests of late, just how the music industry is built mostly celebrating, you know, a certain type of mainstream artists and really not giving light or shine to artist of I mean, I don't want to sound like the old grumpy music lover, but you know a lot of artists that have substance or something extra to give.
You really don't read that much, and I don't recall ever like reading in depth interviews with you at all. But you know, I'm so familiar with your work, but you know, you don't get to see your artists in some of these mainstream publications that do music. So I thank you for finally granting us the just the honor of getting to interview you. So I'm gonna ask a lot of questions. Number one, Miss Karen, could you tell me your first musical memory.
My first musical memory, perhaps, Oh, I guess in church greater amount Calvary Baptist Church, maybe singing solo in front of the adult choir. I must have been four then, because I remember I think the song must have been yeah, because I think Mahelia Jackson had done it one of these mornings, one of these mornings home, going home to live a God. And I was just a little kid, you know, But I think that might have been my
first public memory. And I did a lot of stuff at I remember a lot of stuff at home that I would do when somebody would visit us. My mother said I would give them a concert. He said. I'd put on my ballet slippers and I'd stand in a plia position with my hands like this, and I give them a concert if they, you know, if my folks asked me to.
So that that was just a typical occurrence, because you hear that a lot.
You hear about like Cecil Franklin waking up Aretha Franklin at three in the morning, like entertainment guests like saying something for them.
But so your parents were like that a lot.
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't mind, you know, So, yeah, they were cool like that.
What city were you born in?
I was born in Columbus, Georgia. I was in Atlanta.
Okay. It's weird, like a lot of.
Artists that represent Philly International, in my mind, they're always from Philadelphia, even though they just record for a Philadelphia label.
So you know, it's kind of a yeah.
I've always been a part time Philadelphia, well for fifty years now.
So you live there currently right now? You still live.
There half the time here and half and the rest in Atlanta.
Okay, Okay, so you never lost touch with your your home roots or anyth that those things? No, No, So, having been raised in the church, especially with down South, how does like, what is your relationship with secular music? I know that for there's a lot of generation generational Blacks that grew up in households in which like secular music is somewhat taboo or not allowed in the household. Was your household that sort of that way or.
You know, I've learned that that's the case with a lot of a lot of singers. But thank goodness, It wasn't the case at my house because my dad loved music, you know, big band, New Orleans jazz, you know, preservation jazz, R and B. So I was never pigeonholed where music was concerned. I started collecting records, you know, with the little record player in the little box with the little
snap on there. I started collecting records that I guess spy ish, and they never they never limited this, you know, the records I could buy.
What was some of the records you were buying at that time?
Oh gosh, Well, my dad had a record store on Auburn Avenue.
It was with.
A cab company and a moving company and an employment agency, so all one, yeah, in one building, and I yeah. It was right down the street from Big Bethel Baptist Church, and it was two blocks down from Ebeneza Baptist Church. And so I got you know, I got to sell records too, because my brother and I would come and you know and work for my dad. Sometimes I was dispatcher, you know, for the cab company, and then sometimes I saw records and it you know, it was just a
whole plethora of activity that we got to do. But I don't know, I think I think selling records was the most fun for me because if somebody comes in and asks for a record that we didn't have, I had to write down the artists and and my dad would pick it up at the at There were one stops where the record stores would you know they got the uh Manu pressed records from. I think then they had a pressing plant in Canton, Georgia, and and that that's how we you know, that was the chain of
command for for for doing records. I think that was the most fun, the most fun growing up. And it was down the street from the Royal Peacock. It was like two doors down from the Royal Peacock. So when artists would come to perform the Peacock, I would slip out and go see their soundchecks because the owner of the Peacock was, you know, a friend of my dad's.
In fact, I remember talking to Ruth Brown and telling her that I saw her do a sound check because her son saying he was he's he's a he was a guitar player a few years ago on one of the nighttime shows and he had this amazing voice. Because he did a demo that I eventually recorded, and so Ruth Brown and I got to talk because he put her on the phone and I told her, you know, I remember you, you know when when Mama Dotter mean was you know, it was a big song for her,
and she loved it. She absolutely loved the fact because I was I was a little kid. Wow, Okay, wondering, aren't I?
No, no, no, no, this is literally what I was about. And I'm glad you mentioned. For the longest, I couldn't figure out the proper title. So whenever I whenever people ask me about my record collection, I never knew the proper title of those dealers were called one stops. But oftentimes, like when people ask like how do you collect so
many records? I think they think that I go out and actually purchased like individual like two thousand records where now you know, a lot of those owners of those one stops either they're widow widows or you know, or their family don't know what to do with them. So usually there's like thirty or forty thousand pieces lying around and then maybe a guy like me will purchase it if it seems interesting enough and that sort of.
Thing, so it can get to them before the British come because they can.
Everyone, yeah, come to.
America every year to you know, get the great records.
You know, yeah, Japanese dealers, British people like every place, but the United States really treasure is like you know, I mean there's some people in the United.
States, but for the most part, But that's.
Also interesting measures you know, how we are treasures sometimes.
Yeah, we're disposable country. So okay, So that makes a lot of sense to me because normally when our guests come on this show, the common denominator is that a lot of guests on the show are DJs. And that's how at least the producers that we've had on the show. So the fact that you've worked in the record store explains a lot of your you know, of your illustrious range as far as like the world of jazz, the world of soul, the world of blues, like all the music that you sing.
Does it also mean like your dad was a man because like record store owners were the man in the streets, right, Like they had a lot of respect and access and whatnot.
Yeah, Well, the street that my dad's business was on, Auburn Avenue, was the seat for that part of town of black business. In fact, okay, Gladys Knight's sponsor, mister Alexander TM Alexander was was his his realty company. He and mister Calloway's realty company was right down the three doors down from you know, from from my dad's business. And and I remember, you know, we knew from the inside that that TM was Gladys Knight's sponsor, and I knew of her and then I got to see her
on Ted Max's original Amateur Hour. Yeah, yeah, I remember the first time we got a request for for their record because I had to write it down, you know, it was every beat of my heart. And on the on the b side was Darling, which was only the Pips. Okay, okay, yeah, and Darling Darling was just the Pips and on the
other side was Gladys Knight and the Pips. So yeah, yeah, but I didn't know that was part of the hierarchy that you know, record company owners were the man in the street because there were businesses all the way down the street on the Auburn Avenue.
How long did he keep that business up? What was that a majority of your life?
Or I remember when I was twelve, that was when when I ordered Darling. I must have been twelve then and as a then up up to to a teenagehood, I performed at Big Bethel Baptist Church, which is, like I said, two blocks down from Wheat Street Baptist Church and one blockdown from Ebniza Baptist Church, which was Doctor King's church.
So did you ever get to see him in person, to see who doctor King?
Oh? Yeah, yeah. In fact, my brother, doctor King, my dad had a cab stand, you know, at Big Bethel Baptist Church, and that's where you pay for slots for your cabs to sit, so that after church, after choir, rehearsal, all those places, all those events, people can come out of the church and the cabs waiting. They're like like they do at the airport.
Okay.
And but Doctor King could park anywhere. And my brother, my brother used to used to wait for him to park at when he would park at at Big Bethel, and he would walk him down to Blacks to Aveniza because he was you know, he was now he was
the man. And I remember my brother was so thrilled because this was before a couple of weeks before the march on Washington, Okay, and my brother, I mean he was literally shaking when he told us about the fact that doctor King had told him where to meet them, to be on the bus to go to the march on Washington. So yeah, to answer your question.
Wow, you got to see him, that's incredible.
Oh yeah, yes, yes. After he he passed away, I did numerous misiness King would call on me to do, to do numerous activities, sing it, you know, on on ecumenical Sunday when they would you know, honor him and to sing, you know, at the church at Stetra. Yeah, okay, And she invited me to the second March on Washington.
Your vocal style like you have a very very rich, rich rich tenor yes, you've can sing the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows. Who was your inspiration as far as like, h your your singing style?
Who did you gravitate towards?
Oh? It was different periods of my life, you know. I was influenced by by various and sundry singers and horn players and keyboard players. I remember seeing Aretha. She was traveling with her father, Reverend C. L. Franklin, and she they were at the City Auditorium, which belongs to Georgia State now uh and and she she sang a song called in a Land Where Will Never Grow Old? And by then I was playing piano for church choirs.
So I put that in my in my repertoire and always remembered her for that song, and I sung it at funerals from like I said, from time I was an early teenager till till I guess a couple of years ago staying at a funeral as well.
So you were just the go to person.
I guess. But Atlanta was so full of wonderful singers whoa yeah, I was just one among so many extremely talented for.
Were you at all somewhat hobnobbing or crossing paths with any other future legends that we might have known known of at the time period?
Well, let's see, did you never think of it that way?
Right? Or who started out? That's what I was just thinking, like when you were in Atlanta?
Who?
Who were the singers in Atlanta?
Well, there were lots of blues singers, Okay, the tams as we stroll along to get the times, Oh oh that's the Times. But Atlanta, that's my uncle.
Billie Billy Jackson.
Billy Jackson who produced that song that's that's one of my uncles.
Last night I did with with where Billy Paul performed. It was in London. The Times were on there, okay, but I think the Tams were an Atlanta group, but I gave them the wrong song.
The Times of Philadelphia.
Okay, the Times of Philadelphia and yeah, what kind of food do you think I am? Yeah, yeah, that's them.
Yeah okay.
But for you, though, like when did you? Was it a thing where you just out the womb singing or like what what how old were you when you've made the decision that this was going to be your profession, this was going to be your your calling.
You know.
I guess I never really made that kind of decision, because I do. I did sing, my mother said before before I could remember. I remember vaguely some of the little concerts I did for folks that would visit us, you know, relatives and stuff.
Uh.
And I remember being in the church choir and singing solo before the church choir. But I never made a decision. It was I guess it was.
Even in college, right like even in college you were you were singing.
It was made. The decision was made for me because I got scholarships, you know, for music scholarships and academic scholarship. The school that I chose, Mars Brown, I got a scholarship for academics and I got one a vocal scholarship, a music scholarship. So I was going to be doing that for the rest of my life. Whether I knew it or not, I never made a decision. I think it was just God.
I hear another thing that we have in common that you and I would have been former Juilliard students.
But yeah, we had a different calling. So what was your decision to not go to Juilliard.
I fell in love with Doug carn and we eloped to Hollywood and got married and that's when we.
Owe you guys, I did that.
You well, no, we were no, we were late teens, but we started the family, you know. I was twenty Okay, wow, So you had that that kind of fate as well.
Uh, yeah, I was at least My dad planned on me going to either Juilliard or Curtis.
He wanted me to be in classical music because he thought that.
Was that's what folks thought respectable, irrespectable, our form.
Yeah, because I sang classically, you know, all the major Arias and you know the Messiah and seven Last Words, and and and so it was it was understood that I would probably teach music in a college.
What is this Russian thing? I'm sorry, I know that's in there too. I did not know this about you that that started early on when you were younger too, the Russian singing.
I we were on a in high school. We were on a in a special experimental program of program of study in high school, and our foreign language was Russian. So I took Russian all during high school. Then when I went to Morris Brown that was the first year they had a Russian course. So I did three years in high school and then two years at marsh Brown. So, and you speaking proficiently for me too? I used to.
Same, you do, a mayor, you speak Russian proficiently.
In the first grade. The only thing I remember now is.
Okay, what did she say, a mire?
What she said, dude?
That was forty five years ago.
The type of school I went to, we learned four or five languages we had to know, like from first to fourth grade, I was fluent in French, Russian, Spanish, Latin, English, and ebonics.
Yeah, that's a good answer. Yes, it is hot.
Yes, that's yeah.
I'm just fascinated. Like most people take Spanish in French day whole life, they're still not proficient. Y'all take it for three four five years, and it's like.
Yo, Well, I got a little proficiency in some languages because when when I perform in you know, in France or in Spain or or elsewhere, I would get get I had Burlet's books and cassettes, and I would learn to you know, to talk to the audience, introduce songs, uh through through my my books and my cassette tapes, so that, in fact, my my second husband thought I was fluent in Spanish and Russian and and and and and French and and he in fact, he's told people
I was fluent in those other languages. But I could just you know, I could order food, I could introduce my songs. I could ask for directions, because I I didn't want to be anywhere where I was that compromised. So I always learned proficient, you know, just travel, travel French or travel Spanish.
So you were always prepared.
I tried to be.
Yeah, okay, in in your high school years or you know, did you have any sort of alliances at all with like pop music or just modern soul music at all.
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, I loved I loved R and B. In fact, I just found out yesterday from Laia that le Andrews was.
Your father, my dad.
Yeah, that's amazinging.
Yeah, that's my dad. That's not that.
Actually, here here's here's here's a minor fun fact. We're jumping way into the timeline. But you know, I I he basically ushered me into show business because you know, by twelve I became his band leader. But I'll say that my very first professional gig, non nepotism.
You Gene carn.
Kaw, So you had you had a musical director named Donald Dumpson.
Donald was was a sort of a prodigy. Yeah, because he could yet because when we do places like like Carnegie Hall and Avery Fisher Hall, I could throw in an aria because Donald was proficient at you know, he knew all the arias. In fact, I remember when Pavaratti came to Philadelphia, Donald was the pianist that he asked for when Donald Jompson was still.
Is the man mister Dumpson? Absolutely, I was going to say.
And so I went to the high school creative and performing arts.
Now, the thing is when I when I.
Thought about it this morning, that is highly that's a highly unusual request, Like I'm trying to figure out. I mean, I get I get miffed when my band asks of me to like let an established artist spit a hot sixteen or twenty four over so you know what I mean, like blah blah blah's in the audience, let him get on the microphone.
And yet all I remember was.
That mister Dumpson was going to have three of his choir students and me and I think at the time it was supposed to be me and Christian McBride, but I think Christian couldn't make it, so only I could drum, and we were going to be like special guests. Were you did a I think we had to play free by Denise Williams Wow, and we backed you up?
And I was.
Thinking, like how that must have been an unusual request because I'm trying to figure out, like how did he how did he even.
Make that happen?
Like yo, okay, uh, miss carn I got you know, students at my high school, we're doing this gig. Can they come up and sing a song with you like you didn't have to say yes, and yet you did.
I always welcome anybody owned to my mic.
See that's really bad because even established rappers I won't let them.
But she's a natural born educator too.
That's personal. Then that's personal.
I get it.
Touche. But Donald did the same thing with Boys to Men.
Mm hmm.
Actually, at the time, Mark Nelson was one of the three Tamika Patten who at the time, like Tamika Patten was was you know, she's the not what still amazing singer, gospel singer. I believe that at the time she just signed to Manhattan Records when it was on Capitol and then wow, yeah yeah, Mark Mark Nelson, who was still in Boys to Men at the time, was the second singer. And uh, I believe for Dean Brown, who's like gospel legend singer extraordinaire, like she was the third singer. But
I remember you you had a van. You picked us up from school. We remember hers and free all day?
Is she picking you up from school?
Why is jan Do you know whose car that was that van?
Whose van was it?
It was red, wasn't.
It it was?
I believe it's a red Yes, it was a red van.
Yes, that was Deanna Williams car.
Wow, that's crazy now.
Didn't I hear Deanna say that you used to be her assistant for her?
I was, I am, Yeah, absolutely, we.
Met, we met it, I am, that's where I met him. Yeah, I am.
I want to thank you for making that the most normal way of you telling that.
Story, because yeah, I did.
I was.
I just left it there.
Thank you anyway, life, Yes, absolutely, but no, I want to thank you for that, like I've only I can say.
You know you were You were my first gig. H Phil Simon was my second, and I think I forget my last gig was before I got a record deal. But you were definitely very encouraging, very nurturing. It was easy.
You were not you alive.
Yeah, I got. I'm serious.
This was not fuzzy.
I'll be honest with you.
You know, at that time, I think back when I was following my dad's path for me. You know, Okay, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna go to Juilliard. Like in his mind, he wanted me to be somewhere between like the next Bernard Purty, like the in demand session drummer.
And pretty pretty purty, pretty.
Pretty yeah, and basically in his mind like you know, if I, if I get a job with an orchestra, like if you're if you're good, then you can easily you know, you can make six figures a year, and you know you can work your way up to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.
Mere like it met to him, was like true, but now I'm watching letters, right.
I was like, talk, I'm trying to make that a night like not a r Yeah. So, first of all, was your work with your former husband Doug? Was that your your first for ray and two like the Professional Singing World or were you recording before that or.
That was my second foray if you will, because okay, after Doug and I when we eloped, we ended up in Hollywood in the same building, well complex. It was an apartment hotel complex. As Earth went and fire. They had come from Chicago. They made that sojourn west and we all lived in the same apartment hotel complex and everything surrounded the pool. It was hotel or it was apartment. You could stay for a day, could stay for a year.
You had made service and the residence manager the guy's front desk had been on on gun Smoke, so most of the folks he let in there were entertainers, right, Okay, Yeah, I met everybody from Reverend Ike to In fact, he I subbed for his his piano organists he came to Atlanta. I was, I was. I was a teenager then, and I subbed for his his organist pianists when he came to Atlanta. You know they have those those tent things, Yeah, those revival revivals.
Can you explain to our listeners who Reverend Ike was, because right about now there's like, yo, straight up, straight up okay, So are right now the only connection to Reverend Ike that most New Yorkers have is his former church is still way up in the heights, like right
before the Bronx. And so whenever a venue like Radio City Music Hall is out of commission, then you're going to have to go to what was formerly known as Reverend Ike's Church, which is like this large, sprawling building that can hold about maybe seven to eight thousand people.
So it's kind of weird.
Like there was a point where Radio City Music Hall was shut down for like two months, so like in order to see like Adele or Bonnie Ver like you would have to go to the Bronx or to the Heights to go see them. At Reverend Ike's former church and people, you know, some of those photos are still up, so I would just listen to comments of them trying to figure out, like wait, are we in a black church?
Like what right?
Right?
Why are we seeing like a rock show there? But can you explain who Reverend Ike was to those that don't.
Know, Well, he was a angelust and his his philosophy was prosperity, a prosperity philosophy, and he traveled all over the country, uh, doing his his crusades, if you will, usually in in a big you know, in a big covered tent style, or sometimes they did him in large auditoriums, and I you know, everybody knew his name because he
was just very flamboyant. In fact, he lived at our for a good part of a week in our complex, and so everybody got to see him with you know, he would come out with his guards, you know, and you have to walk the length of the pool to get to the front to the front office to go outside. He was a star. He was an oddity, if you will, because he you know, he had full length. I mean coats and stuff and and bodyguards and stuff.
Was he a pimho? I mean I pictured Daddy rich Richard?
Yeah, that's on a mega church level.
Yeah, a real question of Meir? Was that a real question that you was a real question?
Well? I meant because when I say photos of Reverend, I like his hair was laid back.
Yeah. Yeah, you know he was fried died and laid inside and and he was very flamboyant.
You were saying that your work with with Doug was your second, fore rade, what was your first as far as recording?
Okay, Uh, Doug and I were Our whole philosophy was two to put lyrics to a lot of our favorite jazz classics.
Vocalist.
Yeah, yeah, because I knew all the melodies. I knew the intros, I knew the heads and the songs, and uh, you know, I was staying with the you know, with the whole. These are our records, you know, home, so we put lyrics to those, to those classics acknowledgmental love, supreme.
Wou'd you study the solos as well?
Oh? Yeah, I did the solos. Note for note for note, Wayne Shorter, who just passed away infinized his title tune of our first album, Wow, Horace Silver Peace, we put lyrics to Peace. In fact, Horrace put lyrics to Peace and Doug took it before we moved to New York. Doug took our version, went to New York to show Horace you know what we had done with it, because he liked to get permission. Andy Bay did the lyrics on on Horrace Silver's version of Peace.
I was going to ask you when when you do that do you have because I've heard like like Eddie Jefferson might have a version of a particular song and then like John Hendricks might have his version of a particular song. So right, So is like, once lyrics get applied to a song, are those the definitive lyrics or is there just a world? Is there a rule in jazz that a vocal easee artist can add their interpretations of what they think that song should be lyrically at least?
Well, I don't know what the what the rule is, but I know on the credits Doug's name was added as you know, as writer. Okay, So I don't know what the rules are, but he wanted to give the Lee Morgan he was gonna we put lyrics to search for the New Land, right, Okay.
This is this album with this beautiful afro with you and Jeanie.
Is this the you know we took that picture? Oh no, not the not the one with Jeanie. But there was one of the it was a promo picture. I don't think it was an album cover. A promo picture we took. We took in a in a Japanese garden and it was in Philly. I'd love to know where that.
Maybe it was in Fairmount Park at the Japanese House.
Maybe Doug is ready to fly to to New York. Morgan was performing at Slugs, the small jazz club in the village that had peanuts shells on the floor. It was famous for that. And that was the week that Lee Morgan's wife and blew him away.
Yes yeah, documentary please, yes, yes cool? Yeah, I know if you noticed that. Yeah, he said, he has one of the only people who took a photo of Helen. Helen, my dad's in a documentary. He has his photo and he is commentating in it because when Helen went to jail, she called him wow.
Wow.
Because the whole story about Helen Morgan is she didn't stay in jail for too long, even though she killed a man in front of a bunch of people.
She sure had witnesses.
Yes, yes she did, Yes she did.
Oh wow, because I think Leon Thomas was singing on that gig, you know, creator as a master plan. Yes, yeah, because he did that fair the yodel thing.
He would do, the yodeling.
Yeah, and you know he said he learned that yodeling from listening to recordings of Pigmy rich African Pigmy rituals. What really, Yeah, that's what Leon told me.
I've never heard us get credited for yodeling. I've never heard black people get credited for.
The yodling that Leon banjo yodling. It wasn't. It wasn't in the mountains in West Virginia yodeling. It was. It was this yodling where at times it sounded like he was singing two notes, like like layla hathaway, can do hathaway? Yeah? Yeah, So his was not your your typical West Virginia yodling right under no circumstances. Yeah, it was almost. It was mystical.
So at the time that you moved to Hollywood, you know, what are your impressions. You mentioned earth Wind and Fire I assume that this is the time that they also were working on Sweet Sweetbacks first album there very after Sweet Sweetback, or that when they signed the Columba.
Was this was before Sweet Back, because their first album they Want Warner Brothers right for the first two albums, The Need of Love and earth Wind and Fire right. And one day I was rehearsing lyrics that Doug and I had put to infantize to one of the one of the tunes on maybe it was, I don't remember which song, but Maurice knocked on the door. We lived upstairs and everybody had a patio. Uh, and you know you never closed, you know, close your sliding class doors.
And so Maurice introduced himself. Because this dand never recorded either. He introduced himself. He said, I heard the voice of an angel, and I followed it up the stairs and then he introduced himself, you know, to me.
Wow.
And he came back after Doug got home, and I told him you got to you got to meet, you know, meet my husband. And it was that meeting that made Maurice invite both me and Doug to record on the first two albums. At Sunset Sound. That was first studio I've ever recorded in because that was the only one I knew about. Doug has done an album on Savoy when he was a teenager, an organ album on Savoy Records when he was a teenager. But I never recorded before except there was Okay, there was an album that
Maurris Brown did about choir. It's called Oh Clap Your Hands, and I would love to have a copy. You know, it's a thirty three and it was called old Clap your Hands. If anybody out there has you know, has a copy or.
Just just already order, I got you.
Oh thank you? That would that would complete my life. I think, you know, if I could.
Get I come to you. Bruh, Jeane Brown confer anything.
Yes, okay, but that's what why Doug and I ended up recording Infinitized in Kelli, you know, in Hollywood at Sunset Sounds, because that was the studio at the time. Yes, that's where Maurice did those two albums.
Did you guys own the Black Jazz label or.
I've read that that Doug was president of Black Jazz Records. Gene Russell, a musician himself, started that label and Doug was approached by Jean for us to you know, for us to come and sign with them. Yes, he was the head of Black Jazz Records, and Black Jazz Records was a division of Ovation Records. Dick Shorey out of Chicago was the head of the parent company, Ovation Records, and Black Jazz was a you know, a custom label.
So Doug never never owned it, and I ended up not signing with them because Russell offered both of us a contract. But but Doug thought, well, let's see how he treats him, because the like the first album, I think on subsequent pressings they put my name on it, but it was just Doug Corn infinized and subsequent pressing State featuring the voice of Gene Corn. Yeah, And Doug said, well, let's see how he treats me, and then you know, if this first record, you know, works okay, then you know,
then I would I would sign. But we you know, we broke up and got divorced there, so but we did. We did three albums and then Doug did a population like after after I left the group when I went with because I went with Norman Connors performance wise, and I produced the vocals on all of his all of his his albums.
That's how I.
Got to work with and vocal coach Phillis, because Phillis used so many of my musicians. It was so cool, you know it was she didn't even even have to ask after a while, you know, my horn players. She she just loved, loved my musicians, and I got to work with her vocally. She said, Amir, you'll appreciate this. She said that she had no lower register. What until she heard Infinite. She said that let her know she had the developer and she did it on her own.
She developed this lower register on her own. Yeah, she said, because there's a line and infantized and always keep them in your heart for love, well, teaching, et cetera, et cetera. And she said that line from Infantized was her inspiration
and her incentive to develop a lower register. And she really she did a great job because I worked with, you know, with her on all of the albums that Norman Connor has produced on her and and the ones that she sang on, uh, the songs that she sang on on Norman's albums.
Okay, yeah, you know when I when when we had those records, I was five six years old, so naturally I thought Norman Conness was the singer, not knowing like Michael Henderson all.
The everybody did everybody.
However, I got to ask you, now, were you there for the uh so Much Love sessions?
Which song you're talking about?
So?
All right, so there's so one thing you're going to know about me is while people are into the hits, I'm a guy that's.
In the filling. Yeah, I'm a cut filler guy.
And so so Much Love is uh basically it's like buried at the end of side to when You Are My Starship, But it's basically him doing a drum solo, but he's also singing and kind of quasi yodeling.
Yeah, it wasn't my dad's.
Favorite song, but you know, I was a drummer back then, so I used to always play it. My dad was like it was still the point where it's like a mere no no much love, like no more that song.
I can't take it much.
But yeah, so you gotta research this. We did a cover of.
My Yes.
Yeah, what's her name? Eleanor Mills. She was Stephanie's sister in law. Oh, fabulous singer. She did the She was you know slated to do the vocals on the song, Norman insisted on singing that first line, that first little section until till the only I guess that's a bridge.
Maybe the second part Russell's Russell's.
Exactly where Russell comes in. And you got to listen to that, and you'll now your dad didn't want you to listen to so much love right for you, Yeah, because your dad was saying that wasn't up to par for him, right right, exactly, your ad Well, of course you're dead visionary. So if you find that that tune, uh, Norman's cover of that tune he sings first, I thought he was just joking because it was like, I'm gonna you know, who are we going to get to sing?
You know, first line pitchy is being kind okay, okay. It was comparable. And I love Quincy because first thing he told me when Stevie introduced me to to Quincy, Quincy said, uh, we were recording down the street from each other. Stevie came to see me in the studio and we walked down the street and Quincy was recording. This was in Burbank, maybe it was in Cali. And the first thing Quincy said to me, was our birthdays
are a day apart. And I said, oh you so you're there by the IDEs of March because minus March fifteen and this was the fourteenth. Why thank you? Thank you. Laiah insisted that I keep celebrating for the whole month and just that.
Yeah, but you know.
Hey, why not? Why not? Yeah? Yeah. Quincy did a section on a song that he produced on Somebody, and he and Norman were comparable two to each other, delivering a vocalow you gotta find you make me feel drend.
Oh yes, I will look for it. I wilso look for it.
You know what it's not.
It's just hitting me now that you mentioned your relationship to Maurice. Was the earth wind and fire connection the reason why it just hit me the first week I spent in when I moved to London. Uh, there's a DJ named Jarles Peterson. He played me.
One of my favorite folks, one of my favorite.
He's responsible for us getting a record deal, the Routes getting a record deal. Uh, you guys do a cover Mighty Mighty, I think on the Higher Ground album really hip jazz version of it.
Yeah, and that was the album that it had some some of the stuff that was in the can, and Doug did all of that by himself after I left, you know, the group, and he found a ringer singer. Her name's Joyce Green. That was her doing the newer songs on the at Adam's Apple.
Okay yeah, oh okay, but that's you on Revelation correct.
Oh definitely. Like I said, some of the songs which he took off of the previous album I get it, previous three albums.
Yeah yeah, time yeah, time, Time is running out is one of my all time favorite songs. I love this.
This is really what we can play music on this podcast.
Man.
I know I'm trying to.
Keep up, like I'm a I'm hit mute and listening. Oh shout out, say everybody's listening. You know, just hit pause when you need to exact these records.
Yeah, sorry, Next we're gonna have to do playlists specifically for yes, all the songs you mentioned so at the time, and considering you a serious jazz singer or serious singer, I'm left with it. I'm left under the impression that, like serious jazz musicians try to make it happen in New York and New York sort of looks at l A as sort of like a joke when it comes to serious jazz musicianship I mean crusaders aside or whatever.
But I know that the East Coast has a very snobby and you know it is that way with hip hop as well. Like we're more intellectual, more you know, strategic with our work.
But I mean, for you.
Getting getting to Hollywood, did you feel like, all right, I can make this work?
Like like what were your goals?
Was your goals to just be like the next Eravon or were you like, no, I want to be on the top of the charts, or what was your personal goals singing?
I I just like to be challenged. I just like to you know, to sing horn lined and duel with a piano and stuff. So I never I never had a had a path or anything because because on the Earth went and fire stuff. I did the high high stuff.
Because that was before Philip and before Jessica Jessica Cleaves, and you know, Patty and I decided, I guess it was one day at dinner we were saying, we're going to produce Jessica Cleves because she had the most beautiful voice on the planet, and so Patty inside said yeah, we're going to produce Jessica Cleves, and the whole dream just went down the drain because I understand she she was married to or partners with a with a drug dealer and that, and she you know, she inspired expired
behind that. But she was the first Hi singer for Earth Wind and Fire because Jim Brown, you know, the football guy, managed Earth Wind and Fire and he managed Friends of Distinction, So he took Jessica out of Friends of Distinction and put her in the Earth Wind and Fire stones like keep your head to the sky and stuff that was right up Maurice's valley, you know, the spirituality.
In fact, he showed me what all the symbols were on all their literature album covers, on the sleeves everywhere, and there must have been maybe a dozen of them. He said, well, everybody knows, you know, knows the interpretation of these, but there were four. He said, Now these four just you and I know. And he said, and we'll talk about these in Nirvana when I get there. We're going to have a big disguise.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Can you tell me about the transition to you becoming your own artists? Where you're not working with Doug anymore and you're on your own. Can you talk about the process that glad you to start your solo career?
Oh? Okay, Well, after the Revelation album, we moved to we moved to New York because we were getting offers for performances there. So we moved to New York and Doug and I were working at the Village Vanguard and Norman had just left Pharaoh Pharaoh Saunders and he was starting his own, his own group. He had his promo pictures, you know, and he came in in the Vanguard and I remember he gave me a picture and he said,
I'm starting my own group. You know. After I I was totally through, you know, with Doug's situation because we split in New York. I was trying to side. I wasn't ready to go solo per se. I worked, I did a I did a short tour with Duke Ellington, and I wrote down three. He was looking for a high soprano for what became his last spiritual concert. Okay, A friend of mine and I sat down and we were trying to decide who I wanted to go with. Okay, the choices were Dad Jones and mel Lewis, Big Band,
w Rossanroland Kirk oh Wow, and Norman Connors. So and I got in touch with with all of them, I think that. And now we're going to Russia somewhere in Europe, like in a week or two weeks. I didn't even have a passport at the time, and there was so much material I didn't think I could do it justice, so across them off. And then Rostan and and Dorothy his wife were good friends of mine and Dougs. So I wondered, if you know, you know how when a couple breaks up.
Lat who from the who gets who want the kids?
Who gets the friends?
You know?
So I said, I don't know, you know, but Doroth Anne and I are still friends. She's amazing. So Norman Norman got it by default whise.
Choice, Yeah, I agree, I agree, yeah, yeah, because because for vocals, you know, he became totally dependent on.
Me to what voice, train them if need be, and take them in and and do. He would have the tracks done McKinley Jackson and did most of the arrangements, and he sometimes he would even ask if they could sound like dos and so can you make can you make him sound like like he wanted me to make eleanor Mills sound like me. Yeah.
So, so he would want you tomorph or he would leave it up to you to decide the the vocal direction of each artist.
Well yeah, because he would have the tracks done and he would tell me who who the singer was gonna be, and like like you do an instrumental arrangement, you know, you know your ranges and your transpositions for your various instruments, I would become familiar with the singer and know, you know, what to do with them melodically, okay, And a lot of the backgrounds and stuff I did anyway, because it was hard to find singers, you know too, to blend and all that jazz. So he just stack it, you know,
And I learned stacking. In fact, Maurice White called it moulting because they were just starting to overdob you know when they yeah, when they did when they did the first two albums, the two albums I recorded on. So yeah, yeah, And I got to work with some wonderful folks, you know, Glenn Jones and and and Phyllis and and and gosh, so many and Michael Michael Michael Yeah, at rehearsal, he'll
tell because I've done numerous states with him. Uh, and he would tell the the musicians to said, yeah, you gotta listen to with Carn because she taught men. Yeah, so that that was a good period. That was that was just a period of growth for me.
You've mentioned this twice, but I just really need to know about how a session goes with Phyllis Hyman and how she takes direction and how what does that collaboration feel like.
She gave everybody what for except me. She wouldn't even curse around me, and I never I never asked for that. But but I think, and I'm so grateful because because I, you know, I I just couldn't have you know, that would have been it. We wouldn't have been friends, you know, yeah, because she she could talk like a like a platoon of soldiers. Was tough, arry, very tough. But I was a.
Feeling you didn't you didn't have too much conflict though. I feel like you were that woman.
We never did. We never did.
Carriot though, like you were the person I feel like that people went to that it was. It was never a beef with Gene Carn, like you're beating with Gene carn.
How right now, I don't I don't be.
That's good to know. Hey, I have a question.
So you know this, this is sort of a paradigm shift for you, well, at least in the world of jazz, especially in the mid seventies and what you're seeing a lot of quote serious jazz musicians transfer to more adult contemporary sounds or that sort of thing. I mean, for Norman Connors to come from the world of Pharrell Sanders
and whatnot and then start making pop hits. You know, was there any trepidation whatsoever in terms of like, hey, we're because I always you know, when you when you see the Motown story, you hear like the Funk Brothers talk about, like a man, we're serious jazz cats, and you know, we got to play this like pop music to pay our bills. And even with James Brown's cats, like those those guys thought that, you know, we're serious jazz musicians and you know the lost this pass good money.
But on the side, we're doing jazz.
So for you, was there any trepidation whatsoever or was it just a natural move like okay, it's it's time to to move to the middle at least left the center and see what we can do.
Uh, no trepidation at all, because I since since I was a little girl, my dad loved the big bands. Okay, so if there were if there was a big band anywhere within one hundred miles of Atlanta, my dad, my brother and I we get in the car and we find that concert. So I loved, you know, and he took My dad was from New Orleans, so so jazz, you know, preservation jazz was you know, was a mainstay where he was concerned. We played a little piano by
ear and stuff, and so it was. It was all There were no lines of demarcation with me or styles, styles of music or genres and with Norman Needing going from a from Pharaoh to to pop as you call it. It was that was during the fusion era. You know, Royeers was doing fusion. They were the godbothers of fusion. So it was it was just more growth and more stretching. For me, it was it was delightful because I never liked being him then.
So was it new to suddenly hear yourself on on radio? Was that like a thrilling moment or was it just a shrug?
Like, eh, whatever, Oh no, it was always thrilling. Yeah. Yeah, I never listened to my product. I still don't listen to my product. What. I loved it when they played it. Because when you listen to your own stuff, do you proof listen?
Only when it's time to make the next record, I will do a deep dive in like binge listen. But I don't listen to my music, just like for relaxation.
Right, you don't do that, right?
No, not really?
So neither neither because because I'm proofing, you know, saying, oh I should have done this, I should have you know, I should have put three more background you know, stack three more backgrounds. Because one on my motown album, was it mon album? Yeah? Yeah, I did a this this tune written by Reverend Oliver wells uh. He wrote a spiritual tune for Earth Wind and Fire. They took him on a couple of tours. And I did thirty voices.
I had the engineer to bring in choir risers and and I would imitate.
Altos.
Yeah what I did my own base, Yeah yeah. And I did some of the voices of the elderly ladies you know that wore the hats every stunt Sunday who had the big waybe Vibrato, the h Vibrato. I just remember it back, you know, And and the engineer said, this will not work because you're going to sound like thirty versions of yourself. I said, no, I have references all the way from my from twelve years old to put you know, to put down. Yeah, yeah, which was fun.
See uh this what it wasn't on the Motown album. Come to think of it, it was I it's never been released, okay. It was a project that I did. It was a version of Lift Every Voice and Say that I did as a fundraiser for the Apex Museum, which is on Auburn Avenue down Well. It was technically across the street from where my father's business was, and a block and two blocks from from Evaneza Baptist and I did that for them. It was it was forty five when I did it, because I think I did
it in eighty something. And then I went back to the studio and digitally remastered it. Yeah, it was no it's ax step first and then we did it as a as a CD and it was Lift Every Voice and sing and Julian Bond did a soliloquy on the flip side, talking about James Weldon Johnson and his brother Rosemond Johnson, who wrote the song that's where I had the thirty voices.
Yeah, okay, all right, so I'm ready for the story. What brings you to Philly International? What's the steps that brought you there?
Okay? Eddie Green, an amazing keyboardist from Philly, one of my favorite keyboardists, got in touch with me. This was
when I was still recording and performing with Norman. Norman Connors got in touch with me and said that he he was calling me for getting in touch for Kenny Gamble and he wanted me to come to Philly and talked to you know, they wanted to talk to me about joining the label because I had been I had performed in Philly at the Bes You and places before that, you know, because although I wasn't a soloist as such, but I had an audience somehow, because I remember seeing
Larry Maggott at a at an event. This was just before the pandemic, and he was talking about you know how I guess I had well, I know, I have pictures. I think he said he had pictures of when Patty came to sit in with me and Abie Leverte. So I went to Philly to the three oh nine, Uh, to the label Yeah yeah, oh we're they're doing Bio Pick, and we got to go there. They interviewed a lot of the former artists, and we did it in three oh nine, which is now a hotel.
Yeah, I didn't.
I read went over the whole Oh.
Yeah, yeah, because for a long time every time I passed by there, you know, first there was a big hole in the ground and I would just cry because you know, that was my history.
And yeah, this is the recent documentary, right, this is the Sam polar Uh don't.
I don't know when it's coming out. I think they're gonna that's what it is, yeah, because they're going to add some more to it. And strangely, when when I did my my interview, my my godson, Gamble's son, Kalise, his first born, was the camera guy. I'm proud of that, of course. Uh. But during my entire interview, I my voice trembled and and I thought it did and then I and I didn't realize that was really the case
until we finished. They they put me in my car downstairs and I answered my phone and and the voice and the tremble was gone. So I don't know if there were visitations there or not, because because I was wondering, am I gonna feel teddy? You know? You know any of those Yeah, any of those folks that you know that I got started in the business with, you know, who were my buddies. So yeah, okay, what what was I answering? I digressed? No no, no, no, no, you okay.
I get there to talk to meet with Gamble. It was on the night of an Ali fight ac everybody had left the building and we were going to talk for fifteen minutes, and Gamble was going to you know, I don't know how it's going to get there. But then I you know, I never I don't like fights, you know, boxing, any of that stuff, bustling, boxing and wrestling and stuff. Not my stick. So but we ended up talking through the whole match and and I dare say that was one of the best decisions I've ever made,
because it was it was it was magic. It was magic.
So what is the process now?
I mean, at this time, you're joining the label in seventy six, when they're at you know, when they're at the true height of their powers.
So what's the.
I guess you know when you join is can he run us through? Like the process? Like is there an an r is there the person?
Like?
Are you deciding which songs you want to sing from them? Are they like, hey, we have a song for you. Are you allowed to say I don't like that one? Or you know, can we change this? Like how much leverage do you have in terms of you being an artist there? Or are you just on the conveyor belt of proven hip makers?
Well it was there was total respect Gamble. Gamble respected my musicianship. And in the building there were the producers, the writers, you know mcdann and Whitehead, Dexter, Wan Cell, Linda Creed and Tom Bell whom we just lost. And when I get there, Gamble would tell me, you know, first of all, don't sing anything that you don't want to sing. Don't be goaded into you know, are persuaded.
You know, you know what works for you, you know what what fulfills you, you know what works with your philosophies. And so I would go to they will have written stuff for you, like McFaddens my that they they would present their songs with magic I mean they were. They were fabulous dancers and pulling the flowers out of the sleeves.
They were selling it.
They were, they were a riot. I just adore them. Yeah, and each of the producers who had written for you, composers who had written for you, in it their songs, and and you know, I'm there for probably a month maybe more, just doing songs, and and I over recorded, so there's still stuff in the can, maybe a couple
of albums in the can. Because and when the tunes that that Kenny and Leon wrote for me, when we first started, they were in the in the room, you know, in the boardroom while I, you know, while I did the did the songs, while I recorded the song. After that they let me do the recordings. And then either they bring in we'd bring in Barbara and Evett and and Carla the sweeties, uh right, to do the backgrounds,
or I would stack the backgrounds. And when I when I was finished, I would taken in the office and let you know, let Kenny or call them in the in the in the studio and let them them hear, you know, what they what I'd done on this song, and and give me a critique. And it and it went like that.
One of my favorite songs on uh your Philly debut record was a no laughing matter?
Wow? Yeah?
What like, so, what what are your memories of just that first album?
Like it was it was an adventure. I remember the tunes that Dexter did were all experimental.
Can you talk about him as a producer, because I don't think many people know that. Yeah, Dexter Jel was really like a futuristic I always felt like being under that that umbrella of Philly International almost limited him a bit because what I knew of what he was capable of, Like, you know, he really wanted to be like afro futurist, damn your son raw level of yes, experimentation, but they they honed them.
Back a little bit.
But if you listen to like a lot of the solo stuff on his records, you can see that. But he described him as like as a producer and a musician, Dexter.
Was is a visionary, truly a musical visionary because you remember songs like life on Mars. Yes, he's been He's been telling telling the world that there's a life on Mars for what fifty years now?
Right right?
Yeah, his song should be played for all the launchings should be a part of the music that they that the astronauts here when they go into outer space. He was just just, what is such a genius. It's amazing, Like, Okay, when when they did when he and Cynthia Biggs did Nights over Egypt, Cynthia did the research on that over in the East, there once lived a girl. She then down the nile. He came with a smile. She was the queen and he was the king under the moon. Yeah,
your eyes won't believe and your mind came. Yeah, Nights over Egypt. They were talking about Cleopatra, of course, and and it was everything that that Dexter did has has roots, I mean very deep, Like you said, afrocentric roots. Yeah, I think about that.
So y'all said that that's deep about that? I really you're right. Every song.
So and being in that that that cyclone of dex Here, McFadden and Whitehead and and all those writers. Is there a story of a tune that you wanted that you couldn't get because another artist had it, or in a song that was offered to you that you might have passed on that became bigger for someone else.
Oh, the only tune, and I guess it wasn't big for her. But McFadden and Whitehead wrote a wrote a tune call I don't know no one else to turn to, and I, uh, you know, I'm a grammarian, and and uh it was just too many had a double negative in it. And I remember McFadden said, he said, Okay, carn this song is going to be so big that you're going to say, hey, McFadden, write me another double right, And strangely enough, I I love Love Don't Love Nobody. Always loved it, but I didn't want to cover it
cuse it had double negative. Dang, but I covered it. I've become a theme song of mine. I have to do it every every performance.
But I'm so glad you said that.
For the longest, I was afraid to ask in public if that's grammatically correct or not correct, because you know, once the song becomes a staple, I just leave it alone.
So you.
No, I'm not, But for me, every time I heard love don't Love Nobody, I was like, I think that's only a term that we say, like I you know, I wanted to make sure that I never asked.
But always in my mind when I was a kid. I always felt like that wasn't grammatically correct.
And so you're so correct.
Because you arrived to Philly International in seventy six, at the in nineteen seventy six, at the same time that the Jackson's had relocated to Philadelphia. Did you have any run ins with him, like doing that whole recording process.
Absolutely, we were recording at the same time. Oh, there were such such nice kids. They my my then husband Khalil. They would talk, They would sniggle in the corner and look at Khalil because they said that he looked like their neighbor O. J. Simpson. Oh, wow, he really does. I've never noticed it. So they liked Khalil. And Michael was having voice change problems.
Okay, he was.
He was what he might have been twenty then, don't.
I don't know how old are seventy six, eighteen.
Eighteen, okay, but his voice was changing, and there were and we were all in the same hotel at the Latham on Forsa Walnut, Okay, yeah, on seventeenth at Walnut, and we all lived in that hotel.
That's where my problem was.
We lived in one part of the hotel and they had the fire doors closed, you know, because we had instruments in our room. Stuck so right, So Michael was always in my suite, and he confided in me that he was cracking. There were certain certain notes on certain songs that he would crack. And so we we worked on that, you know, because I've been a vocal coach, like since I was twelve, working with those choir voices.
Oh wow.
So we worked on we worked on his changing the annunciation, sometimes, changing where he placed notes and sometimes and I tried to convince him to just change the notes in the phrases, you know, because he was full of full of ideas, the musical ideas, but he was so stubborn about you know, instead of instead of this figure, why can't we change it to another figure? And it conveyed the same idea. But he he was just stuck on certain you know, certain figures that he had contrived in his you know,
in his head. As far as his plan. We worked yeah, yeah, and and that's when I discovered he he was he was a pediatric insomniac because my mother was a pediatric insomniac. Children who don't sleep well at night, oh children, Yeah, all the way through through adulthood. My mother. My mother took naps during the day because she was just roaming around the house at night. Wow yeah. And because he would when he come into my room after we'd finish
our little sessions. He I remember the first time he said, he said, I'm going to take a nap, and he and he pointed to the floor on the other side of my bed. And I'm a germaphobe, so forgot. So I wouldn't even let my kids, you know, when they grow up and travel with me. They couldn't even walk barefoot on a hotel floor. Oh no, no, no, no, no, get your face. I started getting getting the housekeeper to
leave me sheets and pillowcases and stuff. So when he, you know, when he come over to take a nap, he'd sleep on the floor. And I remember hearing when they were.
Accusing him of of the of the children thing I was saying, and he and he mentioned one day to them, he said, no, I never slept in the bed with them.
He said, I slept on the floor. I said, I know, he does. You know that that just blew me away. That Wow, hurt me so badly.
But that's what what was happening when when we were all recording at the same time.
So you helped him develop his pre pre set Riggs. Wow, you you were a vocal training friend.
Yeah, you know, all singers should get.
Checked by seth Riggs, was no doubt.
Yeah, yeah, yeah checked. He's pretty he's pretty old now, so hurry up.
Well, now there's there's enough lessons on YouTube that we can just go there.
Whoa, that's heavy.
Yeah, there's a forty five minute session of Michael Jackson and seth Riggs, uh doing vocal exercises.
Oh, that's cool. You know, Maurice had some issues and I and he would he would come up, you know, come up and I would work with him vocally. And I remember after Doug and I had moved to New York, I heard changes, you know, I'd go to see them a lot when they performed live, and and I would ask him about stuff, you know, that he was doing.
I said, well, you know, you know where did that come from? He said, actually, he said, I went to seth Riggs. I said okay, and he said and I said, well, so it worked time.
He said, yeah.
But the thing is everything you told me and taught me, seth Riggs told me and taught me, he said, but I incorporated it because I had to pay him.
You're not a paid vocal coach coaching, I mean.
Not for Phyllis, not for Michael. No, I was.
I was just looking out for the cookout.
Yeah, but they was paying somebody.
No, But in seventy six, we weren't. No.
Yeah, but you know he wanted he wanted me and the kids to take him to Six Flags, you know, and my mother, you know, told me, you can't take this forty six like that just open, he said, because because you don't have security, and his security wouldn't work. You know, he just can't do that. So no, he was, he was like a family member. My mother went to one of their concerts, and I could never get my mother to go to anybody's concerts but mine and Patty.
In fact, she said Patty's was the best concert she had ever gone to.
Almost got jealous, your second best?
No, No, she said, it was.
Miss Gane.
I want to ask you about recording two particular songs. Was it all it was? And of course don't let it go to your head, but was that all it was? Just you remember that session and you know what that was.
Like I do I really do. Jerry Butler the coolest guy in music. That's why they called him. He wrote that one. He gave me that one, and it was a ballad, and it was It was so odd hearing hearing the demo with Jerry Butler's singing. You know, I'm used to hearing him him do those smooth ballads, you know, except stuff like Western Union Man, but that was still smooth and cool and icy, and so it was. It was just so odd hearing him sing. Was that all
it was? And and this was at the beginning of disco And although we didn't I didn't choose it for that reason. But when it was it was one take too, because I'm not I'm not a one take girl. I like to do the scratch vocals. I like to live with them a couple of days and then come back in and perfect it, you know, get it, live with it, and then then get it like I really wanted. And I had, I had finished the take and Jerry said, well that's the take, and I said, are you sure?
Because you know my old habit was to live with it and then do it over a perfected John ushery uh did the instrumental, did the orchestration that was that was a masterpiece of orchestration. It was. It was really good, and it was so cute seeing them in the studio, the two of him. Jerry's all cool, you know, and and icy, like I said, and mature and John Ushery couldn't sit still. He had, you know, one of those type A personalities, and he was all over all.
Over the room for the for the one I Find You Love album.
What was happening at CBS at that time, because I felt like that's that album should have been way bigger.
Was that all it was is a club staple?
Yeah, we got we didn't realize it was going to be, you know, so embraced by the disco world. But the disco started calling the label asking for you know, a twelve inch you know. They obliged, of course, But there was a conflicting period there with with CBS and and Philly International and and was was you know, was in
that came out during that period. So though I don't it might have been part of that that conflict because Gamble and Huff were powerful, very powerful, and there could have been rumblings of of envy, you know, that kind of thing.
Too much power, So what led to the journey to Motown.
Gamble was deciding to do other things. He came to me and said, you know, he wanted to do other things, and he brought his his nephew, Chuck Chuck Gamble that had the label. But before that he's formed another label and put I know, he put me on there, and he put the OJS on there and maybe maybe.
Teddy t s op okay, okay, yeah, yeah, and he was he was contemplating doing other things at the time.
Is this when he started doing the real estate stuff?
Yeah? Yeah, building, you know, building communities and stuff.
Yeah.
And he asked me what label would I like to, you know, to go with, because our executive vice president did my deal with Motown. So it was handing your your niece over to you know, to another fan family.
I see.
Yeah, so that's how that happened.
Another one of my favorite songs of your machine I want to talk about it's a it's a duet.
I'm back for more. How do you remember? That's right?
That's the one.
Yeah, that was on a that was a production of Norman Connors on for Al Johnson. Yeah, And they had finished Al's album and they didn't have a hot single, so they called me. They recorded it in l A and so they called me. We started looking for a clincher song, you know, a strong, strong, first single, and we found I'm Back for More on an old Tabaris album.
Wow.
Oh yeah yeah, And so I thought we should do it as a duet. So I was going to use Sybil Thomas, one of Rufus Thomas's daughters, okay, because he's got some singing daughters. Boy, but Symple had moved to New York at the time. Uh, So I ended up doing doing it as a duet with with Al And that song has been sampled more than anything I combined that I recorded.
I was just about to ask y'all that, like, what the what are the sample I hear the samples in the song. I was like, what are the songs that we know from this?
God? Yeah, well did it? And there are when you look on who's sampled, there are names of of rap groups and rappers that I don't even know. So so a lot of those we don't know. Okay, so badly then, oh, okay.
You must have took sampling well, because since you said that you're on a steady evolution and you're fine with me, were growing and going through whatever changes. When they started sampling and using it for hip hop, you were you were cool about it, right, Oh?
I loved it?
Yeah, yeah, okay, because don't let it go to my head. It's like, you know, everybody left that brand newpie and something.
Yeah, well, don't let it go to your head. You know. One of those those message things that that Kenny and Leon were famous for and surprisingly little known fact they I remember when Kenny gave me the song, he said, because he gave it to me as a demo with him playing guitar and singing, you know, and and and Huff did a little piano on it. And so when I he said this you might like this one, and he said, don't worry Huff and I had the had
the background that that's cool, you know. So when I finished, when I finished putting down the lead vocal, the final vocal, I went in his office and I said, come on, we're ready for the background. And and gamble Stead, Oh that's okay, Gene, you got it. Oh no, no, no, no, no, y'all got to come sing this with me. And they know.
That's them in the background.
Don't let it go to.
Who wait, No, no, no, no, who's who was?
No? No, no, I'm sorry, I knew that.
I'm just wait, okay, so this is a very one.
I don't even know that's Rolling Chambers playing guitar with you on that guitar scatty thing at the end, but when you want to incorporate your scating whatnot. And you know, we haven't interviewed the Whispers or George Benson yet, so you're probably the first pop scatter that I can ask this to. What comes first? Like, are you singing your and I'm talking about the thing that you do again?
No, no, most folks can't hear that. I'm with that, you know, don't even know that that's under me because what I did was, I was just I was thinking of ad libs. Well that was in the middle, but like it ended up, you know, being like like an ad lib section I did. I and I don't know if it was Roland or not on on guitar then, but yeah, I imitated the don't never never never know it, don't let it go to your head, your head, So that.
Was you first, and then they followed.
You know, I was imitating I was imitating his his.
Solo oh okay, so he.
Like we did Ninfantized, you know, going back to that period because like like like on uninfantized, every every every note in the solo in Wayne Shorter solo, some day you will grow up. You'll grow up and had your problems, little girl. You must try to be strong. That was that was us putting lyrics to Wayne's solo. Okay, yeah, so it was the same, the same habit.
You decided to do uh if you don't know me by now, which the irony of it is that you're not on Philly International anymore.
And that's what Motown said.
Was it your idea to do? It?
Was that Motown like, oh, we have a legacy artist from Philly International, so let's bring some of that over here.
Or no, it was it was it was my my idea. In fact, when when when I made uh who is it? Okay, Iris Gordy and and Raynona Gordy were you know, over over that that pride jacked.
Yeah.
They when when I said I want to do if you don't know me by now, they the sculler butt was well, you've already left that label. So they gave me about five long play albums. With samples of Joe bat music because it was like, what about us, you know. Well they didn't say that, but I got it, and from those I chose my baby Loves Me. Oh yeah, I did that, and I did another another Motown tune. But yeah, but if you don't know Me by Now. I remember telling Teddy that I wanted to cover, you know,
to cover that. Well. What I wanted to do at first was I miss you, Oh, I miss you, and and Teddy said that doesn't fit you. He said, because think about the lyrics, he said, because it's gotten drink and drink, and he said, you don't drink. That's when I went to if you don't know Me by Now.
Yeah, another genius move on that album.
And this is kind of weird.
I think the way that I just discovered classic songs is I discovered the cover first. I knew your version of completeness first, before I knew many Riputins versions.
Oh wow, yeah, you know that was the only thing that she had recorded that I could do.
Oh, because he's just reflexing it.
Everything else of hers was out of my stratosphere. And the week that she passed away, she came to see me at the Roxy. I did maybe three days at the roxyat and it was just just a few months before she passed the way. Because she she was telling me how she she was. She said, she said, I'm putting y'all down. She was because she was on CBS right and she said, I'm going to do my own things.
She was telling me about a clothes clothing line. This was the way after she had had the mistectomy, and and that those two nights, George Duke came to see me, Stevie came to see me. Uh Serena came to see me. Chaka Chaka was just pregnant with her first child. Then there was so many folks that I didn't know came came to see me at the Roxy. It's right on Sunset, right at the Beverly Hills line at the sign.
Yeah, yeah, I know that for you in eighty six, you know, one of the one of the best comeback stories in music was you know you achieving your number.
One single with Closer than Close, right and again I'm Flame of Love is like one of my all time favorite songs of yours. Generally, what was happening in eighty six for you? Like, were you expecting this at all, because I think a lot of times when artists are on a lot of labels and they record and record and record, and the desired results, I mean, sometimes it's like a stalled car. Sometimes it's not. But this, this
really truly felt like a victory lap for you. Like, can you talk about just the whole process of making that record and what your expectations were and how did it feel too.
Come with those two hit singles.
Well, it was so such a pleasure to work with Grover.
Yeah.
Yeah, because a friend of his, what's his name, he used to be on the news here in Philly. I knew him. He does he doesn't add now for a legal firm, and his name will come to me. But he went to more House and I met him in Atlanta, you know, when he was matriculating and he hooked. It was his idea for me and Grover to get to know each other. So he made the introduction and it was like we had we were steparated Siame's twins, Grover and I we were so compatible. It was just amazing.
In fact, Closer than Close was the first, the first song we chose. Because he produced two of my albums, the two on Atlantic and we just thought so much alike, and he just loved playing on my product. You know, he played on just about everything on those two albums. In fact, on the twenty fourth of April uh in Atlantic City, the National R and B Music Society is, in conjunction with the Mayor of Atlantic City, is installing the first class of artists on the Atlantic City Walk
of Fame. And I know the Delphonics on there. James Brown will be installed and Grover Washington Junior, so you know, and I've been in touch with, you know, with his his daughter and his son and his wife Chris and there then be there and yeah, and and the grandchildren. Yeah. So I had to had to mention that. But I had my my manager, my then manager had put me on two labels. Sugar Hill Records was one and Boston International Records with Maurice Starr sugar Hill and Sylvia Sylvia Robinson.
And he was in such a hurry. We'd get half an album done and he was saying, well, they're not you know, they're not doing this quickly enough. So he would get me. He made me leave the label and got both Maurice and Sylvia to grant me unconditional releases from the labels. But but of course I stayed with with Sylvia Rown for the two albums on Atlantic. It was weird then, you know, Electrosylo Atlantic and Warner Brothers.
Once the nineties come along. How do you feel that the industry, especially with with with black artists. I guess with the process of of.
You know, with hip hop coming in and whatnot, and you're seeing like another generation of artists coming too the system that's kind of far away from the traditional style of what soul or singing or jazz music or whatever, like, how do you not get discouraged by that?
I think?
I think because a lot of artists could easily fall into bitterness and anger for some reason, I don't feel. I don't feel that from you at at all. Like, how have you been able to maintain you're cool and sort of a steady pace throughout your career?
Yeah, I'm you're very astute as an observer because because it never it never affected me negatively. I like the fact that they stampled me a lot, you know, and back when you know, when the when the lyrics were posts them and cute, you know, and positive. I you know, I embraced it as well. Uh and and and they they used vintage music anyway, you know in there. So I like the fact that they were introducing the the young listeners to to the vintage artist and the vinted sound.
So I was, I was, I was cool with it. And the fact that that I, you know, had a jazz audience, you know, a strong, sturdy jazz audience, and the R and B side, So I you know, I could perform everywhere, you know, and in Europe you can. You can perform in Europe for the rest of your life. They know more songs than you know. Absolutely, So I was, I was cool.
Can you also talk about to because I remember a time, and I'm decent from my childhood memories, but I remember a time when you became you got into education and you were teaching teaching at Howard and you were teaching vocal.
Oh, I got offers from several universities. You had to join their faculty. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was it was a bit too confining.
Back.
A couple of universities offered me, they said, okay, you can pickure your days that you'll have classes, and they had replacements for me, subs for me when I had to, you know, to to go to work, you know, this week, and and you know, it was it was cool like that. But I just didn't, you know, because I was still raising the kids then, and and that happened with with some Broadway offers as well, because I couldn't I couldn't bring the kids to New York. What did you say
to my mother? Did not want to live in New York? Oh?
Well, yeah, that part, that part, it is very different than Atlanta.
Yeah.
Yeah. But but the fact that I had those two very diverse audiences kept me kept me afloat. And I you know, and I'm glad a lot of the rappers have grown up. Your benches, rappers have grown up and changed their lyrics, and I'm thinking that's going to happen down the road for the younger ones, you know, So there's hope people, That's right.
I have one more question, So can you talk about your work on the Jazz Is Dead series with Alicia heat and Adrian Oh?
That was that was quite an experience. You know. I haven't hadn't done anything like that since I appeared on an album and you mentioned and to may right, uh, years years and years ago, I think it might have been. No, it wasn't his first album. It was called life Cycle, and he recorded in Boston at the New England Conservatory and he had uh Andy Bay Deadie Bridgewater, Ron Carter, so many of you know, of the top jazz artists
on on this this project. And what he brought was a skeleton skeleton, you know, skeleton tracks because it was an album, and we basically he gave us titles and themes, patterns, and we basically it was extemporaneous for the most part. And not since then had I been able to do that until I got with with Ali Muhammad Shahid and
Adrian Young. Because I get there in the studio they hadn't sent me in any music, no ideas, no titles, nothing, and Adrian since it plays me some changes, pretty avant garde changes for most of those tunes, which was very appealing to me, you know, like sitting in with Pherol Saunders or Felonious Mark you know sometimes. So that was cool by me. And then I had to go on Mike with no idea as to what I was going to sing, which I hadn't done, like I said, since
the MN two May album. I composed my lyric. I compose the melodies just listening to the chords, and the titles of the songs were all extemporaneous and off the top of my head, with no prior, no prior notice, no prior conceiving, And didn't even know that was how it was good. It was.
It was a stretch like exercise, right like.
Yeah, yeah, it was like calisthetics for a whole album.
But you did it.
It made you stand on your tippy toes.
That's good.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I want to thank you for taking time out to speak with us, and you know we're lifelong fans of yours, and you know, definitely one of my favorite singers. And I thank you for taking a chance on an unknown drummer. And you know that that that a massive effect on me.
And I'm the circle back story Auntie. That that that you do now every day every night.
Oh absolutely, you know.
I didn't remember you from you know, from the from the performances. I started, I, uh, who is your guy in your late night guy that you.
I never watched his show.
I passed by his show, uh you know channel surfing, and I saw you and your guys.
I tried to like his part, you know, his jokes and his guests. Uh. And it didn't It didn't work.
So I started recording your show, his show, y'all show. Uh, and I would I would fast forward to when y'all broke the commercial until you played, you know, on the faith for the commercials, and when you came back, and that I loved And I guess I I I it was because cellularly I remembered you.
Oh nothing for me see yeah, oh wow, Well I guess we're leaving the show now, Steve.
So watch tonight's show. It's a hot mess. The music, the music, no, especially the music.
No.
I thank you, Thank you once again. And on behalf of paid Bill give give well bro and fan take a little absolutely get well paid Bill, Steve. Uh, we thank you.
This is another classic episode of Quest Love Supreme and we'll see week on the next go round.
All right, y'all peace.
What's Love Supreme is a production of Iheartened Radio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.