Questlove Supreme: Deniece Williams

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. It's a negative.

Three like a coffin the snees sniff is not a cough snee and a sniff. In twenty twenty two, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I am Quest Loved your host and with me is the Almighty Team Supreme. I feel like Don Cornelius every time I have a superlotan thing.

We all mighty, now, you guys the Mighty team.

Yeah, yeah, you're not the mighty with the Almighty.

I think somebody just got soul trained on the mind.

Yeah, I'm actually watching this whole thing right now. Anyway, sugar stea, what's up?

Oh my gosh, so much.

Feel like a new man now, don't you?

I feel different? Yes, After I recorded an interview for Question of Supreme.

With wait, well let's not give it away yet. Let's not give it away yet.

But Steve, Steve took the lead and did miraculous Jimmy jam numbers four hours with UH with an incredible guest.

And you know we'll hear that episode, yes soon. He got the nerd out.

I mean I was there as a training Wills and then Irish exited him, you know, left.

Him on to sell them but it can't wait. Sounded awesome, But you're finand Steve, everything's fine. I'm fine.

I tell you said, you're the fund Steve, and that is how I feel like the fauns. Yeah, I'm definitely cool.

Now, great, great fan, take a little.

How's it going man, I'm cooling, bro, I'm cooling, man, cooland happy to have miss Denise he today.

This is my childhood, close and personal for real.

Absolutely and uh you know why you cannot contain ourselves.

Listen, I am so you don't even understand. I am pumped, beyond pumped and yes, yes.

So well.

Our guest today absolutely needs an introduction. She's a legendary songbird with over seventeen albums, nineteen top forty R and P singles, two number one pop singles, thirteen Grammy nominations for wins, but basically just for the last five decades,

Yes, Yes, we'll get into that. This interview has been a long time coming.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to Questloft Supreme, the one and know me Denise Williams.

Yes, how are you?

How you doing wonderful? I'm wonderful and really excited to be with you, guys. Finally we've been trying and so here we are and it's lovely. I'm excited to be here with you.

I have one question.

I am going to start at the beginning of your life, but I got to get this out the way. So when when my parents brought home this is Niecy your your your first record on Columbia.

Huh, all right? I was six.

I you know, since then, I've had the record in other iterations like a trac and cassette and CD, but you know, the actual.

Vinyl, like I only remember that from my childhood.

Is the name Junior or June is Junior in your name or June something? Because in your liner notes I remember seeing that as your name, and I you know, I have an uncle named Juni, and I was trying to ask my mom like, wait, how's her name Junie? And she's a lady, like what is what is your your your full name?

My full name is June Denise Williams. I was born on June third, so my full and first name is June. Ah.

Okay, I get it now. I think throughout time, like you know, like when you see something once and then like decades go by.

I think at the time I thought maybe your name was Denise Williams Junior.

Or something like that, But.

Because you was young, I didn't Yeah, I didn't associate the name June.

When I saw that name, I thought of my uncle Juni. I'm like, wait, how does she have his name? So I get it related.

You never know, I see, and you're a Gemini, yes, I ah, oh, I forgive you anyway.

Nobody's perfect, right, my mother I will wake up and murder and my mother will look at me and say, okay, who are you today? You June or you Denise? Which one am I favor today?

Oh? Really? You dealing with both of us? Okay?

That who we have today? We have both today?

Okay, let's get it.

I keep myself entertained too.

I get it, I get it.

I know that you were born in Gary and Deanna, so I usually start with where were you born?

But I want to start with a different question.

Uh, could you please tell me what your very first musical memory was.

My very first musical memory is. I was three years old and I was sitting on the back porch at my grandparents' house and I said, we will now have a selection from Denise, and I started singing this song called There's a Man Waiting way beyond the clouds. And my dad's sister, my aunt, hurt me that. She came out and she said, if I asked you to sing that song in church on Sunday, would you do it? And I said okay, And so I sang the song and next thing I know, I was in the children's

And what was it about that song that attracted you to it?

I just loved it. I love the melody. I love the message of the song about someone in heaven waiting for me, and the beautiful melody and the fact that I just liked the sound of it. When I was singing the sound of my voice on it.

Of course, you were born in the Midwest. You know, there's another famous nearby family. It's kind of synonymous with that series, that city of Gary, Indiana. But could you give me your version, like when I hear of Gary, Indiana? Besides the song Gary Indiana. You know, I only know of the Jackson's version of Gary, Indiana, which is basically the tale of a father using hook or crook to get his kids out of that city.

But what are your memories of Gary, Indiana?

I love growing up in Gary. We had in my neighborhood. You know, one thing I realized is that I didn't know that we were poor. You know, I thought we had everything. As long as we had tuna fish, I was fine.

I love you.

Right now, I'm saying. So, you know, I had an upbringing in the church. I spent a lot of time on the weekends with my grandparents, and my grandmother was the mother of the church fake temple church you got in christ Over in East Chicago. So I was there and basically, you know, just grew up, went to school, very Christian youngster, you know, didn't know a lot about what was going on. I think I was very innocent.

You know.

Later on, of course, there was the drug scene in that. But I grew up. I didn't start singing until I was a teenager, and so myth teacher owned a record store and I asked him for a job. I got a job, so I was singing. You know a lot of stuff in there. I had seen Michael and the Jackson Five perform at the Masonic Temple one time, and I think he was about five years old or something, and their cousin, the drummer in the group n Johnny had a crush on me. I thought it was a

Did you have any sort of interaction with other notable Gary people like I know that.

Kim Misells from Gary as well, Kimzillia.

No, okay, or like Fred Williamson or Ernest Ernest Lee Thomas who played rides from What's Happening.

That's a funny story because my grandfather was a pastor. He had, you know, his membership. There's maybe about twenty twenty five of us up in my grandfather's church and he was a pastor, he was a musical director, he was the choir leader, and so the choir existed about five of us and Ernie Lee Ernie Thomas was one of the members of my grandfather's church. We grew up together.

Wow, okay, Wow, that's up.

I've known him since I was about ten, probably in the early arts I comment I did a show at the House of Blues and you know, Ernest Lee Thomas was in the Foundation room like all excited, wanted to come back stage, and you know, I see him walking down the hallway and I'm all excited and.

He's like asking me permission to, like, yo, can I can I meet him? Can I you know, take a photo? And everything? Da da da. He's like, I love this album and everything. He's like all excited and he goes to comment.

He's like, yeah, just you know, I'm trying to be respectful because you know, you know, ask your bodyguard first if you could, uh, you know, if.

You could take a wow you were his bodyguard.

I'm I'm gonna tell you something fun. That was the day where I was like, I have to lose weight. So when I never I never shared this story, but it was that day.

When not I got to get more famous, so I gotta lose weight.

No, I was like, wait a minute, I wear because he he he knew everything of that album, and I'm like, wait a minute, how do you know Common but don't know the Roots?

And how do you not know that I'm a member of the Roots.

And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, No, offense, Sir, I thought you were his bodyguard, and I was like, ah, man, I gotta lose weight.

So that that was the day.

Wow, I had to do that. Man shout out. Shout out to Ernest Thomas.

Okay, So the thing is is that you grew up in a church environment. What were first of all, how many siblings did you have in your household?

Uh? There were two brothers and my sister Derek is under me Diane, and then don a l.

Are you the baby or the I'm.

The eldest, I'm the oldest?

Was the D stand for anything where everybody was a d.

My mom thought she was being unique. You know what can I say? I mean, my name is d E n I E c E right, my sister is Diane, but it's d y A N N E. She was, you know, trying to be unique and artistic and whatever else.

She was well you know what, hey, she knew she was naming like you. That's right, We're an artist. You gave art to the world.

So growing up in that environment, how like often kind of a common theme with some of the singers that come on the show is often like secular music is frowned upon, Like you have to stay in the church. So often they're they're transitioning from the church to kind of you know, secular music whatever, it's sort of met with a frown. What was the general feeling of secular music back then as far as your household was concerned.

Well, it was frowned upon. You know, if you did the Devil's music, you want to win and row stick it on your way to hell, you know. So I was trying to stay on a hell.

But so you weren't allowed to listen to Motel?

Oh yeah, I did, of course I saw that was okay. That was that, you know. But the bottom line is that my mother, who who was born and raised in the church under my grandmother, said when she got grown she was never going to church again. And so she drop us off that church on Sunday when I wasn't with my grandfather, and she would pick us up, but she did not go in. She was doing the drop off pickup service. And my an incredible music fan, so she had a turntable in her bedroom and all of

You know, I can't imagine a time where you know, music almost had the same sort of status as you know in some black churchs as almost like pornography, Like it was just forbidden. So what was that like for you as a teenager, because you know, being as of the year you were born, you know, by the time.

That's you're thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, where like there's.

Now black psychedelic rock, there's you know, towns going through new phase of sliding the family stone.

Like how is that affecting your teen years? Well?

I tell you it did. And probably the most impactful thing that happened to me was that I did do a local record you know when I was I think I was eighteen, called love Is Tears and it was written by Eugene Records of the Shylights in Barbara Makes a Woman, Barbara Acklin and Gene. Because my teacher who owned the the record store he was he came in the back one day and he heard me singing by Maretha Franklin record I think I was singing eight and no Way something like that. And then he came out

It, talk about it.

So that first, that first song you did, the Love Is Tears, you did that under your name.

That wasn't under Ali, it was.

Under Denise Chandler because Williams's name. So it's Love Is Tears by Toddling Town Records. You know, I have one over there in my safe. I cot a little kept a little copy somebody sent me. And then they got mad with me and stripped me up my membership, and you know I couldn't go. And you know, my best friend at the time were my cousins, and we used to travel with their father who was the pastor, and sing. And they told me, oh, we can't have anything to

So come nineteen seventy six, did you get your moment?

I sure did, and I'm gonna get you more.

We'll get to that, all right, we'll get to that. When did you wind up leaving Gary, Indiana?

I love Gary, Indiana. I think when I was eighteen, I went away my you know, my band teacher, mister Bryant was like my father to me, and he got me into college. His roommate from college was the president of Morgan State.

Yea, oh yes, almamado, Yes, I went there, all.

Right, now, So he sent me to Morgan State, you know after that, and so it was like I went there and I majored in sex and drugs, and you know, the church people turned me a loose and I went to Morgan State and lost my mind. I ofques, I lost my mind.

Oh wait, can you really be saying what was Baltimore like back then? Though? When you went to When you went to you.

Know, Baltimore was wonderful. I enjoyed it. But I had a friend that lived in the dormitory, and she was in Philadelphia. Her name was China. So then you know, I was there on a student work kind of a program. And so I went into the high school in Baltimore to be a TA tacher teacher's assistant. And then women in that class they already had babies. Tenth graders had babies.

Hold on, let's go back to the cage.

Okay, okay, let's go back to the cage.

It was the church.

I'm already seeing the graphics for her episode.

It was the opening act for these five guys that was called the Feminiques. They was waiting for the they change body, their surgery at John Hoppkins Hospital, Baltimore. Yes, opening up, Yes, yes, I forget the club.

That was popping in Baltimore that was.

Known Oh yeah, yes, So mister Denise, what was your attire in the cage?

What was your outfit?

I had on a love jumpsuit, you know, Tina had on little jumpsuits. And we was in the cage and I was singing by you know, the records of Rita and all that kind of stuff, and she'd be there. Yeah. I made more money in occasion I would have made if I stayed at school.

And this was your first time out of away from home.

And I'm telling you, this was my first time because my mom borrored my a neighbor's car Ronnie he Borreroddy car and she drove me from Gary, Indiana to Baltimore. And when my mom left us standing there and I pick up and she'd be down the road and then she's gone, and then I couldn't see. I said, who.

Oh wow.

School. I'm glad it had that history.

Real nice, Thank God, albody. And they already had me church, had me set up in a church at Baltimore, and people that was gonna pick me up on Sunday and take me to church. I love to lasted about two.

Months Oh it lasted that Long's that long?

Yeah, it lasted that long.

I see.

So, okay, you're in Baltimore. But the thing is, you released a single. So in your mind when you made that single, was that just a one off thing? Okay I made I made a forty five and whatever. But I mean, are you actively pursuing, like, Okay, I want to do this for real, I want to get a record deal and release music or is it just like Okay, I did that.

That was fun.

You know, I never wanted to sing.

With that voice.

No, because I grew up in a church with a lot of great gospel singers, my cousins. They would you know, they would sing and folks would be slaying in the spirit and falling out and shouting and running off through the church. And I would sing and they would listen and cry.

Yeah yeah, well, and I was thinking, and.

I'm doing something wrong because they're not falling out and speaking in tongue and doing all of that. They're just listening and they're crying. I mean, they would be boohoo crying when I was seeing and so I just thought I didn't have it. And my mom was a nurse's aide, My grandmother worked in the hospital as the nurse's age. I had an aunt who worked in sterilizing instruments, and so I wanted to be a nurse. That's what I was going to do.

That's right. Oh wow, I remember that. Okay, I wanted to.

Be a nurse. I wasn't thinking about the music industry or pursuing that at all.

So who explained the tears to you and what they really meant?

Who's playing?

Was said?

Who explained the tears to you? Like, who explained job? Yeah, because at the end of the day, you know, you still do that. So but it's it's a good thing.

So they weren't saying anything to me, you know, they weren't saying a whole lot to my cousins, so that was falling out. You know, they would have their experience and falling out, but they didn't explain their reaction or

Oh no, Denise, I mean, did anybody ever explain to you that those tears mean so much more, you know or gift? Yes, because to this day those songs like your songs. I was listening today just remembering tearing up, So that's a thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they never said anything, you know, they would just you know, got critical when I did the R and B song expressed you know, their thoughts about my my talents and my cousins who had people fallen out. You know, they were the big, big cheese. They were the one and you know, the pastors children, and so they were the big folks in the church. And so I never thought I had a sad that I better go to school and be a nurse, you know. So that's the

Wow, man, I love the storyteller.

Well, first of all, is that was that your first like true professional experience.

Singing background or with the national artist that I mean with Stevie Wonder.

He was the very first. Well, no, let me back up. When I did the local song, I was asked to sing at the Masonic Temple on this show with Jerry Butler, and then I was asked if I would, you know, sing let it be me with him, because I think he sang with.

A pretty good and.

Yeah yeah. So I sang let it be me with with with Jerry Butler, and I was like, oh gosh, I thought I had died and gone to heaven, you know, because I loved his voice. He was huge in those days in the Chicago area and you know, all over with music. And so that was my first time singing with a professional person. But the second time would be with Stevie Wonder.

So what led you to that journey.

I had a cousin, John Harris, and when John's grandmother and my grandmother were sisters. But John lived in Detroit. So the first time John came, oh Lord Jesus, I fell in love with that black man. He had compel. He was you know, he got yeah that in his hair, girl, okay, And so he would come. So my sister said, don't even think about it. That's your cousin. That's blood y'all. Get together. You're gonna have idiot children, you know what I mean?

That real John.

So John would come in, you know, every summer for one week and then what So he's from Detroit, So he kept telling me, telling us, you know, I worked for Stevie Wonder. I said, boy, Pinocchio, your nose is growing. You don't know Stevie Wonder. Everybody Detroit say they know Stevie Wonder. And he told me that for like three years that he knew and was working with Stevie Wonder. So when I went to school in Baltimore, he called me. He said, Okay, Stevie's doing a concert in Baltimore and

Yo, It's like a whole long list of people who let him do this?

Why is he we can do a compilation? And the amount of times Stevie wanted to has driven.

Someone's car.

My life flashing in front of my eyes and his too.

But anyway, you were in the car while you weren't just letting him drive it. You were riding with him while he got on the brake.

Ah, Sir, I.

Love Jesus, but I wasn't trying to see him that day. So anyhow, about two years after that, Uh, John came and he said, hey, what you doing? And I said, Man, I have to leave school because that science was kicking my butt. I said, I don't know what I do with myself, but I you know I can't handle the science. He said, well, you want me to get you an audition with Stevie. I said, there you go, there you go.

I mean, I consider the core you Jim Gilstrap was.

He Jim I first came aboard.

Huh wow, Okay, I never saw one of Love with a male singer. Okay, that's dope.

Lonnie Gross was there, Jim, and Lonnie Grosse was there when I joined, and then Shirley came a little bit after me.

Okay, so well Green also, but before the.

Supreen came after too. After Oh, Lonnie left.

Yeah, that's Jim singing, if I'm not mistaking.

Is that Jim singing the first verse of your the Sunshine of My Life.

He's also the male voice on Good Times. I Gotta tell the Storis We've mentioned Jim is a singing partner on that. There's another artist that was on Motown that Stevie was managing at the time named Blinky.

And oh you know, okay, but.

There's one scene in Summer and Soul that I had to leave out. Blinky was like a performer on the on the festival and they were doing a cover of Light My Fire.

And you know, these are union musicians, not.

Like people that are familiar with the music, and August of Wind came and blew the music sheet off of their stands. So it's one of the most hilarious moments of them not knowing how to end the song. So there they keep playing in a round circle and it's it's the greatest car crash I ever heard in my life, Like of her.

Trying to end the song, but you know it couldn't happen.

But I always wanted to know, like, was Blinky one of his background singers or just I never.

Heard that she was one of his background singers. I know her as a singer and as an art as a recording artist, but I never heard that she was actually one of the females.

Yeah, he managed her, or at least according to the contracts that that we had, he was one of her managers, but her and Yvonne Fair.

Were under him.

But okay, I always wanted to know, like about the other singers that were in the stable and if they were wonderlove members or whatnot.

Did you talk about that.

Experience, because I'm about to ask the audition, I was like, what was that?

Like, Yeah, what's that experience?

Like that was scary because you know, some of them showed up with the piano, they had music they wanted to sing. I just showed up and just watching everybody you know, in their professional audition. I was sitting there saying, oh God, oh god, I don't know why I came. So then he called me up and I started to cry. I said, I don't know what to sing. I don't

I see, all right, that makes sense for our listeners who don't know. Everyone in that band was a legend.

I mean, from drummer Alie Brown to of course we know Ray Parker Jr. Michael Simbello, yeah, yeah, Michael sim all those people, but even like the so just in general, like I was, I always thought of Wonderloves as an army.

What was it like for you? How was your experience in touring with that unit?

Well? I was scared, so it was difficult, but I came in Dave Samberg was on saxophone. The Brecker Brothers were playing with Stevie.

That's right, yes, they were.

Yeah, Samborn and the Brecker Brothers were there. So there was a lot of incredible musicians that came through Stevie's stable. It was hard for me in the beginning because I went, I actually came. By the time I did the audition, I had one son. You know, I had been married and I had had had a son. So me trying to balance motherhood and broals the professional business of the

It's nineteen seventy two, you know, because I think in everyone's mind, especially by the seventies, it's like, oh, you're on television, you must be a millionaire. Oh my god, they're on Sesame Street, they gotta be rich. So what's singing with one of the premiere acts of his era? Was that a good living?

Back in nineteen seventy.

Two, I think it was an okay living. You know, we made it work, but no Steven was making the money and you know, we were getting salary that was you know, it was okay, but it wasn't great. The thing that really helped me is that my mom left Indiana and moved out to California, so she was helping

So and being in wonder love.

One of the requirements was well, not requirements, but you felt it was wise for you to move to Los Angeles as opposed to just going north to New York.

Or initially in the beginning we did go to New York, but then after being there for a couple of months, Stevie decided to move to Los Angeles, and so we went to LA.

And did this also include session work as well? Like what notable songs are you singing the background on?

I didn't do a lot of session work with him. I started doing a lot of session work when I left town, you know, so you know, I sang quite a bit with ROBERTA. Flack, who then eventually hired me, Lonnie Grose and Patty Austin to travel her with her as background singers. It was what was right, I think I'm on that's the time I feel like making love. And yes, roberta Flack, you know so. But when I was with Stevie, I didn't do a whole lot of background work.

You know.

I was on a retainer, I was on a salary, and I felt a responsibility to stay there and sing with him and not go out and do a lot of stuff. But the minute I stepped away, I was doing quite a bit.

Okay, who else was poaching you at the time when you were in Wonder Love to come sing with me?

Well, I had a real frightening experience with Ike Turner, you know, wow talk to me and he had me speaking in tongues up in there. I thought, Jesus, I got the gun. And uh, Kenny Gamble, you know, Philadelphia heard me singing and they approached me, and I said, you know, that's okay, because Kenny Gambles had like a chair that sat like a throne, sitting up high, and he had you sitting down, and I thought, I don't think I like this too much, so I said no, thank you.

You know, based on the hystatics of his positioning of saying, man, I get it.

Telling me to go up in there and I want to go, and I was scared, and he was saying, I don't think it's just for you, Denise, and I said, I agree, it's not.

Bye, So wait, can you tell us what's the words? Did I say words to you that made you go?

Or was it I wanted to know what I wanted to do and what I wanted to do with my career where you know, I think I wanted to go. And I said, uh, I think I'm gonna stay right there with wonder love for right now. And thank you so much for considering and talking to me.

Thank you you could be taking them.

Yeah, I think you made the right decision.

I should note that, you know, in seventy two one of the more unusual pairings. Again, even as unusual pairings go, like for those that have seen you know, Bill Graham's lineups, like it was very typical for you to see like Miles Davis and The Grateful Dead one Night, or like Jimmy Hendrickson, you know, like some other act that's the opposite of him.

But you guys happened to be on tour.

And you know, for those that followed the history of the Rolling Stones, it should probably be noted that perhaps they're nineteen seventy two tour document it very well in a yet unseen documentary called Cocksucker Blues. Was really like one of the first sort of ganders into what we

Well, they absolutely loved him. I mean, Stevie got during that particular tour, he got you know, mad reception from the audience, and I think that, you know, that's what really blew him up when he opened for the roly Stones, who was were renowned and well you know known, and the music well known. So that opened up the door, a giant door for uh Stevie to be there with them. And the reception was, you know, was good. He did very well.

So you guys weren't pelted with any tomatoes or or any of those things.

Are you familiar with the Prince story at all?

No?

Yeah, so you know, Mick Jagger is a fan of dirty mining controversy and asked Prince to open up for the Rolling Stones and about one song and just you know, the first time is this merciless booze and some Jack Daniel's bottles. But the next day they came armed with like, you know, chicken and watermelon and oh so it wasn't.

Yeah, it wasn't.

Which is where considered that it's Los Angeles. He would think, like, Los Angeles is way harder, yeah, to please than New York City was.

But you can't do that to a blind man. Now, you can't be throwing the water mountains on the steak.

No, I didn't know that that happened to him, but we, you know, we were fine. I think the thing that terrified me, especially as a little church girl, is the drugs that were circulated, that they have their own doctor on the road with them to keep them pumped up.

And it's like, oh Jesus, So you know, we haven't had an artist on here that has been on a tour of that magnitude.

So what can you describe?

You know?

I mean we have a I mean we can imagine like what it's like on a wild crazy tour, but you just generally describe what you saw like during that time period.

Well, you know, it was really funny what usually happened with me on those tours. And it started with that tour is all the roadies really liked me, and they would say, you know, you want some Hashi you want you know, we got coke, we got that, And I'll say, not in Jesus knowing Jesus name, I don't want none of that. You know real quick that I'm not gonna be bothered with none of that. You can't have no Kuchie.

I love you so much to do.

I just find the door, girl?

How long?

I just I wonder how long you was in there trying to find the door, and all the least.

Forty five minutes in the one room. I walked down the hall and there was nothing in the room but a hole in a pole. So maybe if I go down the pole, out the door. So I went down the.

Sliding down like a poll.

Listen, I'm trying to be out down means out glass and slid down the pole.

Yeah. I was trying to get out of there.

And first of the last time you slid down the pole.

Last first and the last, I said, Lord Jesus, if you getting me out of here, you don't have to never worry about me coming up in here again.

And wow, okay, so.

Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait a minute. I would like to get her version of this story now. Uh you know your your your fellow? Uh wonder lovey and Ray Parker Parker Jr. Kind of gave a very ambiguous hint. Wouldn't totally confirm it.

Uh we Also, I mean, this is way before great villain gains this time, but I need to ask. Okay, So the week that inner Visions gets released. Uh, you guys are booked somewhere in North Carolina. Stevie Wonder is in an accident. What is your version of what happened?

I believe my cousin. What I remember is that my cousin John was driving. They were in the car and John fell asleep.

Your cousin was the driver.

I believe John was yeah, oh wow, okay, all these q are really tied together this yeah.

Yeah, wow, okay. I I wasn't even ready for that. I sort of had the feeling that they were trying.

Ray was trying to allude to me that this is one of those moments where Stevie insisted on driving or whatever, and so I don't think.

Any was driving. If I remember it correctly, my cousin John was driving, and he nodded a fell asleep or something like that. That's my recollection of the story. Doesn't make it true, but that's what I was I heard, and I have always thought.

Happened because I was too young to remember it and only heard about it in sort of like retrospect. Was there were you guys basically like, well, he won't make it because I remember it.

Steevie was in a coma for at least a month or so.

Correct, I didn't know it was a month or so, but I know he was badly injured here, he was out of it for a while.

But okay, so in your mind is it like he may make it, he may not make it, like what's going through the mind of the band, at least in terms of we.

Didn't know exactly if he was going to make it or not. You know, we didn't know what was happening after that. But you know, you just pray and hope the best. And then he did come out of it, you know, so, And I was grateful for that, even for his sake, for John's sake, for feeling so guilty, so bad about to carry that load. So for him to come out with and it would accomplish the things he accomplished really helped the spirit and the heart of John.

All right.

So I also know that you're one of the last people to work with the great Charles Stephanie, whom you know for our QoS listeners, really, I mean, yeah, any anything on on Cadet records, the Lewis Ramsey Lewis, the seventies output of the Dells, you know, even some of the blues artists like you know with Muddy Waters record and the Electric Mud album and many Rippetons come to My Garden album, but you know, most notably his, he's the one that really took Earth Wind and Fire and

Well, Charles Stephanie, like you said, brought a color and a style to Earth Wind and Fire that was really the most beautiful collaboration in their music. As far as I'm concerned, Charles Stephanie was just brilliant. When I was doing a song call on my first project, If you Don't Believe, and he just lifted up the top of the piano. He took a guitar pick and just strum

It at the time, are you hoping that perhaps you could have your own career as a singer or maybe one of Love does a record, because you know, at the time Cev's doing the Serta album, he's also working with you know, he does stuff with the Supremes, he does Miracles.

Yeah, exactly.

So for you, what was it about whatever mar east White was bringing to the table that made you decide to go with that camp?

And how do you leave the Wonderlove camp? And was it amicable?

I don't think no, it wasn't amicable. I think if you asked Ray Parker the same question, he probably said, no, that wasn't amicable.

All right, So walk us through how do you leave the situation?

Well, for three years I was with Steve for three three three and a half years, and for three years he promised to do a project on Wonderlove and it never happened. We would be in the studio writing and you know, rehearsing, and he never would record us. It was always one excuse after the other for him not to record us. Like you said, he was working with other artists, other artists you know that had careers already.

Him songs in the key Life isn't even created yet. Was there a slight regret? Not regret, but you know, songs in the Key of Life comes out, and of course this is Stevie's magnum opus. Like even at that time period, did you have any sort of worries of trepidation, like, ah, we might have jumped the ship too early because this is a project that sets them off in the stratosphere. Or was it just like, Okay, I'm out here on my own, let's just no regrets, let's go for it.

I wasn't on my own. I was with Earth Wind and Fire Well, and I was roberta Flack to you know, two groups who I respected, that's being who were interested in working with me, you know, so I did not feel like I was on my own. I was very happy for him, and I was more happy to be a part of that whole situation.

I mean, I have oh oh, we can see the hardware in the back.

I love it.

I up here somewhere because he gave me a plaque, you know, for being on the being on the project. But in my heart and in my spirit, I felt it was time to go. I did not feel that there was any room to grow. I just felt like, you know, we're going to be here for the next twenty years. In fact, he has a band member that I was in a band with, Nathan Watson, is still there and it's been thirty five years.

I was going to say, Nathan is still his bass player.

He's still with them, And that could have been you know, any of us if we had decided to stay and I had babies and feed, I had mouths to feed. I didn't have time to be sitting there.

Those job lessons right there? Are you supposed to give it what two three years? And if you know it ain't no movement, then you got on.

That third year. It finally dawned on me this this could gone for a while and I really didn't want to to be there another three years or so years and he's still not do you know for wonder love what he was doing for other people, But like I say, you know, looking at it, you know he was being paid to produce. They had record labels, they had budgets, and you know he would have to do for us, So no, I didn't feel alone. I mean, especially when I jumped over there with earth Wind and Fire, there

So were you opening for them at the time when you went to their camp, I was the opening act.

I would trade off with the Emotions. I would, you know, do a couple of the tours and then the Emotion came on and then they had both of us as opening acts for Earth Wind Fire.

So what did it feel like the first time in which you're in charge now where you're the artist and you have a band and all these things, Like was it weird now having to have the heavy lifting and decisions be up to you as opposed to getting an itinerary and see like what the thing is?

And how did that feel for you? Like that first few months, it was very.

Scared, you know, because I've been in the background and now I was in the forefront and they were literally pushing me out on stage. I didn't want to go. I was backstage and they were talking calling my name, and I said, I don't think I can do this. I don't want to do this. I don't think I can do this, and maybe back there you gotta do it. Push you know, I went out there. I mean it was like maybe three or four years before I feel

So wow, you sugarfoot with Sugarfoot, what.

Was that like?

I would say, okay, Jesus, okay, Jesus. I mean the boys was nuts one night and shook my hand and put his hotel room key in my hand and say, you know, I want to see you at midnight. So I ran to my road man, not him, but one of the mothers and which one it was it.

Was a player, was a player players preaching?

Well, he put his letner and I would run to my road manager, who was Leonard Smith, who was the big six foot eight guy in the show with Earth. When fire to hit the gong? Uh out there on the road with me, I said, Leonard. He said, don't worry about it, give me the key. D fool me after that at all?

That was it.

He showed up.

I got your right here.

That was.

But the thing about the tour with them was is that they had about thirty grand worth of lights and special lighting and stuff, and so the all of the light guys, all the the little you know, all the little roadies, they just loved me. So they said one night they said, you know, we don't use half of what we have, so we've been using it on you. I said, oh, you know, I was the open id

Oh you was showing them up.

Yeah, because there yeah, after yeah, it was your turn, just so you know, going up the charts.

And they were just doing all they loved, you know, spending the thirty grand of light. They said, they're not using half of what we got, so we didn't using them on you.

I said, oh, thank you, Wow, love it.

Okay, my favorite album of yours was your your sophomore album, Song for That. I believe that the single from that record is baby My Love's All for You.

Yeah.

In my mind, I always thought that was like a massive, big hit. But what happened for that period in Songbird for You that didn't happen for the debut record, because I thought that album was bigger. It was my favorite, so I thought it was bigger. But can you talk to me about what happened there?

I think that the main thing that happened there is that Charles Stephanie passed away and the sound changed.

Okay, Murray was.

Turning down original material that I had written to bring

You know?

And they were mad with me. I said, listen, if we got ten songs on a project, I'm gonna give him one. Get over it. And so we fought the next couple of years about me doing gospel music on my secular project. So that was going on to they were mad and.

Was this the walk yet in the call period of Columbia or it.

Was Walter and those guys, Yeah, very nice to me though, I you know, I would go in there and saying, what I need another couple of hundred grand what are you in here? But he would give it to me. So anyway, that was the bottom line. I didn't care how much he fussed. Go call Marvin down there and legal and send me my money. Baby needs shoes. And he always gave me the money, so you know, and no feels, no nothing, you know, get back up, just write the check now.

Yeah, oh heavy.

So that was still. That was prevalent. That was prevalent just throughout.

Oh yeah, I love walking in the coffee. Was very very good to me. Bruce Lunvall started and then Walter. They were always very very good to me, uh and very respectful. And I will say, you know, I'm praying for you.

You know.

So they said, oh, oh, there she go, but they were very not happy with me. Would do it the gospel stuff.

That's crazy because I of you know, of all your songs. I definitely remember that.

That made a impression on my household, like God is really amazing and all those things.

And that's the thing now for R and B singers to do to prove themselves on records now, putting the gospel record on it at a gospel jam last did.

You feel the need to do that to sort of send a smoke signal back home to Gary, Indiana, to the church.

You know, I did it because of my love for Father Son and Holy Ghost. I did it for me. I didn't do it for them, and at that time, I didn't really care about their opinion. But that's you know. I was raised in the church, and I felt like if people were going to have a total overview of me as an artist, I would have to do some gospel because that was a part of who I was.

But eventually you do return to Gary, Indiana. What is the response now that you're an established artist?

Oh?

Very different? And now I'm okay.

Now you know church people, well, no, no, I met back in seventy seven, seventy six, seventy seven.

Yeah, they're still acting a little funny, you know, because they still don't support or agree with what I'm doing. But it was funny. I came back around that time and I attended church with my two sons, and my uncle decided to preach a whole sermon and to church that Sunday on how I was going to hell because I had on makeup and beinging out polish and so and my children were there. So I got up and I came back, and you know, I was crying. I

Oh you what you did?

The next time I went to church, my uncle said, Amen, sister Denise is here.

Switched that tune up quick.

For you them off. She said, I want her money back with interest. You over that burning the martgage paper and we know how you burning them. That's the tie she's been sent money.

I said that. I didn't I say it, y'all, didn't I say?

She said, I want the money back with aw shut the hell up, and did another word.

Your first number one single comes a year later in probably the most unusual way, But this song was inescapable. When I was a kid, Could you talk about the decision to pair up with Johnny Mathis and we do, well, just what that whole experience is like, and the irony that the second to last song on that record, in my opinion, winds up being even more popular than Too Much, Too Little, Too Late, which is of course the theme the family ties Without Us.

Could you talk about that whole experience in doing that record, Well.

It was wonderful. I was on the road opening up of Earth When a Fire, but I got a call from my manager and he was saying, you know, Johnny's considering doing a duet and your name has come up. What do you think. I said, Oh my god, I would love to sing with him. I didn't you know, looking and singing along with him on television all these years. I would love to do that. And so you know, they said, okay, Denise is willing to do it. Because they first went to my other the artists on the label.

I wanted to walk.

And oh yeah, I said, Mom, I'm not taking you up in there because you know, I know she was gonna be buck wow. We won't go get no work done because she did that to me with Marvin gay.

So you just.

Go back, go back and will I'll introduce you to Johnny later. And I did you know, Wait, that's two stories, good bit.

Wait what happened?

Well, Marvin Gaye's brother was performing at a club called the Troubadour, and I wanted to see him, so we went down. I took my mom at the Trooper door and we went down to see Frankie singing. And so what happens is we sitting in our seats, but then here come Marvin. He come walking in there, and my mom was went off, Oh distant, lover, oh love, oh honey, and she just went off with marvat.

Gay and I looked at her like, excuse me, Johnny rode around. I wasn't taking no chances, right.

You don't meet him later, but you are not going to the studio. She didn't talk to me for a day or two, but she met him and it was all cold, best daughter ever.

So in recording that record though, and especially with the song like too much, too Little, too Late, which okay, yes, you you're not the ilk of a tenor baritone gospel singer, you know of of the Mahelia Aretha.

Uh.

First of all, you're you're a soprano. So even with your the voice that you have, what is your active range? Like, are you able to also sing low as well? And you just chose to sing singing your upper register?

Or I think I have a really nice low register that most people have not heard. But for some reason, when I was writing, I was just writing in those registers. So that's, you know, that's what I did. I never did write in the lower register or thinking the lower register. Now, A lot of what you hear me do is my mom. I used to you know, my mom was singing the shower and I'd be standing outside of the shower listening to her, and you know, all that stuff she did.

So that said, because you know, if I were of age of them, I wouldn't have been able to call that particular do what simply because I don't know Johnny as a belter or an ad lipper and that sort of thing. And of course, you know, when you get to the end of that song, I mean, you're just

But Seinfeld and you know everybody.

Do you guys, Do you guys discuss how you're going to do this? Are you singing together at the same time? Is it like I'll sing my part first and then you come and at your parts later, and then I'll read like for that album, are you singing is it together in person?

Or how do you handle that? Well?

We would listen to the song and the song would go down, and then John felt comfortable with me telling him a little bit of how to sing because he said, I've never sang with anybody before, and you sing with Stevie and Roberta, so you know, you know those kind of nuances. So basically we would run the song down and I say, I'm gonna sing this. You know, I'll

He was the lines and you kind of color.

That's with the massive success of that song. Was there never a discussion to have a follow up record as well?

No, well, you know, we wanted to do stuff, but really his managers were really scared of me because you know, I'm I'm a black woman, and I'm telling what to do and he started listening, and so I think that they came a conclusion we need to get her on out of there.

So they did, seriously, there's just one and done.

Well because Johnny you know, started really listening to me and I'm a strong independent woman and that's not hisality. And so after you know, talking with him and hanging out with him a couple of times, they said, she's a little bit too much of an influence over him.

So now so the thing is is that I can't you know, Philip talked to about it a little bit, but you know, he didn't really go into it. But of course, like the second big producer that comes into their Earth Wind Fire stratosphere is David Foster. And you know, like our listeners know that David you know, did like Wildflower everything everything. Yeah, I mean well, I mean but mostly just as a soul guy, like did like New

Have gone by. Everyone's like, oh, I always loved After the Love Is Gone and all those things. But I know that Foster.

Worked on, uh, the when Love Comes Calling record, and and I'm not certain what the chart position was of I got the next dance. I remember hearing a lot on black radio in Philadelphia. What was your experience or your feeling about the Wind Love Comes Calling record? Because I knew that sounded very radically different, yeah, than the first two albums produced by Maurice and Maurice and Charles.

But for Wind Love Comes Calling, who decided to really change it up?

Well, Maurice was working with David and so then they said, well let's put Denise with David. But it was not a good pairing for me and David to work together. First of all, he was very condescending, you know, producer to artists, and he, you know, says something to me one day and I took the headphones off and I came in. I said, you know what, we will not work together if you do that again. I said, I don't even want to go there. I said, you will

I'm sorry what.

No, oh god, wait a minute, half of me.

As soon as she said Alabama, I knew, I said, but was it good a mirror?

And I told David, I said, baby, y'all about to get your Yeah, I don't even.

Want to say you get the wrong one hurt up in him.

Okay, somebody's gonna get So we didn't work out to this very day. David is scared of me, and I like k.

So it's not word under the bridge at all.

No, and you did not write into that chicken. Correct, No, none of that.

She could have. You know why you called me out? Like, wait, why you call out.

Good?

That's not my krypto. Chugen is not my kryptonite. I wasn't call I was suspects me. I don't care if it's Popeye himself. No, I'm not eating that chicken.

I wasn't.

I was just getting your question answered.

That's all. Was it good? Though? Yeah, I'm sorry you didn't need it.

However, I will at least skip even though it was a you know, I think when you're younger, you take everything in and you know, I loved that record, even though I didn't realize.

Yeah, you didn't have any idea of the vaccine.

However, you came to my hometown and actually uh my home studio of Sigma to uh to work on your your next few records. Did Tom Bell and uh, what's her name? Yeah, Linda Creed at the time? Did they stop working together?

By this period?

They stopped working together because Linda Creed became very ill with cancer. I don't know, okay, and that's what she passed away from. So Linda Creed wasn't well. But also I had I started writing with Tom Bell. Tom Bell and I started writing because he wasn't writing with Linda, and so you know that's what happened. The only songs that we didn't write together or was. I remember sitting and we used to cook before we would record or

I know you also worked with the legendaria Clarence McDonald, who his I know that silly you did silly with Clarence McDonald and his his resume is out of this world, Like how did how did that come.

About Actually, Lonnie Groves was dating Claireson McDonald at that time and wonderful of it. She said, Oh, I'm, you know, dating this guy and he's doing a lot of stuff. She's doing a lot of stuff, and so we started going out, going over to Clarence's house and we started writing. And that's how, you know, a couple of the big songs, especially on the first and second.

Album, came about during your time working in the Earth Wind the Fire Camp. Did you have any dealings with Skip Scarborough?

I did?

What was he like?

He's one of my favorite songwriters.

Skip was such an incredible, loving guy, really soft spirit. We went to the same church, you know. He was just the genius. Just the jenis when you absolutely you know, don't ask my neighbor, and all the songs that skipping. It's just incredible working with Skip Scarborough. You're right, he was very special.

Of course he did two albums with Tom Bell and that's also like your your your last record with the Arc Organization with Maurice White. What happened, Like did the label just disintegrate or And I'm I'm only asking because like again that that that giant logo on on the record was no longer on your records. Yeah, the RC logo wasn't there. So when I saw the I'm So Prout record, I was like, oh that's it and no more So how did how did that happen?

Well, Maris became you know, Maurice and Columbia Records started having a following out differences of what where they wanted to go. So then Marris call me and said, we're leaving, and uh, you know, just know that everything's going to right. You're going to go with us, And they actually started talking to r C I And at that time, you know, I had had any relationship with Columbia or anything outside

Man, okay, well, of course your your next collaborator, your most consistent collaborator in my opinion is the work with George Duke I'm missing.

Yeah, could you talk about working with him and just what it was like.

Oh, I tell you, George Duke was one of them. It was an incredible genius. I mean you could put George in any music genre and it would come off incredible. I mean, you know with Zappa, you know Frank Zaper, you know Stanley Clark, all that stuff that George did. But you know, he could do classical, he could do gospel, he could do R and B, he could do pop. George could do anything. And the thing that was most incredible about him is he was just a big teddy bear.

So we water.

We was in the studio and George is mad as hell. But we was in the studio recording less.

Here listen and how do you feel when? How do you feel? When it went to number one?

You know what I'm saying. And then when we did the unsung, they did this unsung on me and George's on that. I still don't like that song, so I said, you know what, then give me your producer's royalty. I'll take you all right.

I'm gonna tell you. Every little girl like me was like, that's the jam.

I had that.

I had that on a forty five. I had that, I had that on a forty five.

Give me your money, since you feel like that. And so because I also tell him at my show, I said, one night, I was at this club in Los Angeles and I was singing, and I before less Here for the Boy, I always ask the good man to raise their hand, and so this guy in the corner of the dark raised his hand, but I couldn't see him because the lights was in my eye. So I looked up. I said, put your hand down. You're not a good man.

I had dinner with Bobby and his wife about two months ago. I apologize, I said, Bobby, I'm sorry.

He said, was right, was right.

I will say that to me, Black Butterfly is one of my favorite all time songs of yours, more than Free, more than any of those songs.

I heard that song at every like any kind of black pageant, like yeah, kind of like graduation for like, you know.

Emi.

Only one one night is what the guys would saying in Black Butterfly was what the woman was saying, for.

Real, for real.

What happened was somebody had sent the song to George, and George played it for me, and the artist who's a well known artist and I'm not gonna name, was singing. It was all over the So I told you Orge, take him off, take him off, and let me live with it. And I loved it because it spoke about the trials and the tribulations and what it took for us to you know, to get here our belief, our strength and tell your sons and daughters passing that message John and I said, you know, I didn't write it,

Wikipedia says Barry Man and Cynthia Cynthia well A while in nineteen eighty.

Two, Yeah, what's your your your training? Like like are you a student of seth Riggs? Like how do you how do you train your voice? How do you you know, does it if you get easily hoarse?

You know?

Is it the Wretha Franklin thing where you have to have the air off in the room in order to sing and open your trichea to hit these notes?

Like what's your regiment?

God?

I mean, there you go.

You know, I don't do anything special. I do warm up. God is amazing? Was actually my exercise vocal that I used to do before I actually wrote the song to you know, open up my vocals. But I just have to blame it on the Lord because you know, just I mean what I am sang in about a month and yet.

You know they just.

Happened, right.

But do you also like not smoke or you don't do the dairy like, do you do that stuff?

No?

I don't smoke anything.

You know.

I try to be cool, you know, in the club with rum and coke and a cool cigarette. But then when I found out that this was going to be how I was making my living and taking care of my children, I stopped that. I said, no more. I don't smoke. You know, I don't do any of that anything that would interfere with my throat. I did hookah one time, and she said, okay, keep doing that and if I cooperate with you. So no, I'm very particular,

I know that you had switch labels that your gospel output was not on Columbia at all. You mean, at no point did they just think like, yeah, this makes sense, let's let her do a gospel record, like, why did your gospel stuff come out on? I think it was Word Records, I believe No.

I was with Sparrow, but Philip and I went to Columbia to glather and asked them to give us a half a million dollars to start a gospel label for Columbia and they said no. So right as they said no, let's hear it for the boy. You know, it was number one and my contract ran out. So I said, okay, this is it. I'm coming back. I'll resign, but I want to do gospel music somewhere else. And they agreed. So I ended up on Sparrow and Philip ended up on Word.

Wow, okay, okay, that's just.

And even with your Grammy success with gospel and whatnot, like, they still didn't double back and just say, like, you know what are bad, let's do let's do something.

Know what they did and they gave this other guy six million dollars to start a gospel label and he spent it on Arabian horses in Nashville. And they come calling up fussle with me. I said, no, no, no, no, no, you wouldn't gave him that six million dollars. I Ali had asked you for a familiar So now don't don't call me God bless you, Bye bye.

M I had to fast forward and see when Columbia got like deep into gods. I guess they did in Mahalia Jackson, but I was like, man, okay, So Mary, Mary and the crad they got they got the message.

Show somebody like.

Now they come down and they got the message.

And all right, So with where you are now, especially well you said you haven't sang in a month, So is this the first extended break? Like there's a lot of us a post pandemic kind of had a complete world stop to sort of regroup for the first time in our lives for you, was that like the first extended break that you took when the pandemic started? As far as uh, not doing like a lot of gigs and whatnot, just relaxing, Like how did you how did you spend your twenty twenty when it occurred?

Well, I've been working on producer. I'm co producing a theater piece called Live at the Crescendo Love with Elfie Gerald, Saravon and Pearl Bailey. So I really sink a lot of time into you know, working on the theater piece. We hired our director, we hired our writer, we hired our music supervisor, we hired a theater company. So we've been working on that for the past two years, almost on that particular theater piece and going through music for

And yeah, you said you have a shop.

We have an actual shop. And the girls got a halked the tops and a little short pasts in the Yeah, is this.

A Nevada or is it? Where's a shop in Las Vegas?

Our first store, So we are, you know, we're doing that. And then I'm beginning to get back into you know, getting back on faceboo, well, getting back on my social media because I backed up away from that, you know,

Well besides the play and whatnot. Is there another kind of bucket list dream that you've yet to fulfill in your career.

No, I think that, you know, with the various projects that we have, and we also have another theater piece called the Fairytale Chronicles stuff that we're working on. So I think, you know, for me in the music industry, I accomplished more than I ever thought I would and it made it's made an impression of positive impression on a lot of people who grew up with me, like

It also sounds great for the people who saw your unsung.

It's a nice continuation of chapter to see that you're working with your sons, right, that's great.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the books is called you know, the Next Chapter Chapter two. No, the book is called Second.

Act is the children's book, no book that I'm writing for that you're working on one of the three.

Okay, well you know I just wanted to front you look like he's about to.

Oh man, I was just gonna say just this this thank you for the music, like you're there that this is an easy album. That's like one of the first records I remember seeing in my grandparents' house, like coming up and so I just remember as a kid because I was, I mean, this is I was probably four or five years old, but I remember the front that you had on the it's like the black and with the kind of yellow.

Was the wall.

I couldn't I was like, was I was so afraid when that album cover came out because one of the leaves did the entirely cover that titty and about this big My grandmother said that what the big mama see that part of my titty is out? Oh god, I was.

I was so.

Yeah because the back of seriously the back cover that I mean, I had to just qustian music kid. Just that was one of the just the first covers I remember seeing that I wasn't afraid of because it was because covers were so big, you know, but you on the back, and I remember you had like that big smile and I was like, man, like, this is just you look really beautiful on that and that's just one of my favorite memories from childhood.

And I love that album, so just think you so much.

I was kind of afraid of that cover, Fante, because again I thought the wall was eating her up.

I wasn't sure either a mirror I was with you again, I thought.

That Stevie Wonder is drowning in donuts on songs in the Wife. So you know, what do I know?

Oy?

I still did they think that he's drowning and donuts. But you know, you know, we really thank you for doing this as solid and coming on your show and sharing your.

Story and be impatient because this has been like our third time rescheduling this, and I just appreciate you for that. And although you may not evoke all kinds of yells and screams do your music, the emotion that you wouldvoke is priceless, timeless, and we just thank you.

For it, sir and Steve anything, thank you for Let's here for the boy.

From my heart.

I'm not trying to make a joke. Thank you, just even if even just for.

That for real though, because that's where that's that's where I found you and then and then went backwards.

So thank you, yes, absolutely well once again, ladies and gentlemen.

This is Denise Williams on Quest Love Supreme on behalf of Fun Takeelow and Layah.

And and based on that partial titty, I'm going record shopping tomorrow.

I'm gonna pick that one up anyway. This is question. We'll see you on the next go around. This is Steve. Thank you, Bye bye West. Love Supreme is a production of my iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.