Questlove Supreme: Bob Ellis

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Uh, Ladies and gentlemen. I can already tell this is gonna be.

A classic episode already, just based on the pre interviews. I usually try to discourage any small talk because I always know that something magical is gonna happen and we don't have it.

But it's already happened on folks. But that doesn't mean that you can't continue.

Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supremest Love. We are here with Team Supreme while yeah, you are back in Los Angeles or you're in Philly right now.

I'm back in Los Angeles where you damn?

Okay, No, I was just saying, it's been a long I've been that four states and three days of line.

Oh you use it on award tour with Muhammed your man.

Okay, I.

See all right. Well it's good. Glad, you bet glad to see the familiar settings on paid bill. You do it very one.

Cool, rocking the suburbs, rocking the suburbs. I can't stop doing laundry. I'm fantastic. Everything's good. Did you receive your Tony yet or is it still waiting? No September Tony September and then you and me go to the Oscars.

We're going to Oscars. Son, Wait, what you got? What you got going on? What you got going on?

That?

Damn forgot? All right? All right, I forgot you seats right next to each other. It'll be great, all right, fan Tickeolo. How's it going.

I'm good, bro, I'm down thirty yes, okay, hey, let's hear you. I'm keeping it going, man. I'm taking this week right now from what's tonight's dinner. I'm drinking leak, fennol, zucchini, tomato and lemon. Y. I gotta drink my salads, y'all. I gotta drink my salads.

Because I didn't eat mine.

I got so you can't do like tass and then like that that I could, But then I'll be lying, Grace be like you eat your slish and I'm like, yeah, sure I did.

And then you know it's faster to just take it down I.

Rather just drink it, because you know, I'm I'm that guy. It's easier for me to drink myself. Man, get it, get it, how you live, bro?

I love it.

We should we should acknowledge that in the five year history of the show. Sugar Steve is sitting this one out for the first time ever. Sugar Steve's personal friend Paul Simon has offered Paul Simon and his wife Edie Brucel have offered Steve his Yankee tickets, and so you know, that's that's where Steve is right now.

Amazing sentence.

I feel like Steve should have been like, hell, no, I got a show to do. I'm not going with Paul Simon to the Yankees.

No.

I know, man, but you know this is once in a lifetime. You know, he lives with baseball.

So I will start by saying those that are very familiar with podcast know my tendency to ramble on about a lot of things, especially all things Soul Trained. I'm extreme obsession with it, every aspect of the show, not just being a hippus trip in America, but actually being a you know, the science behind how the show works. And I also learned about the business of how relationships

So that said, I was always curious to know.

How an unknown Rufus and Shaka Khan became like majestic almost slightly overnight, like two or three years whatever. So I would actually look up the histories of the unknown artists that were coming on Soul Train and realized that

Bob Ellis's call?

Because I was like, do I call you Robert Elvis Stilberstine.

Or you know I dropped sil Verristine. Uh, you know what I think of When I was an intern for a PR firm when I moved to Los Angeles. I'll tell you real quick, uh, and then we'll get into Billy and Chaka.

So I was an take over you know. Wait, can I say your name first? Yeah? Please, and tell me welcome Bob ellis to question hit me all right, hit me, honor.

But I don't know how fast you want to tell these stories.

But the least talking I do, the better.

Intern you know, at a PR firm, and I basically was delivering mail, delivering tickets, you know, to famous actors, and they said, what you know, this young kid one of you know. That's when the Beach Boys and the Beatles were making all this noise, and I'm sure you

So wait a minute, Billy Preston used to play with James Cleveland.

Yeah, do I need to say anymore?

Say it again?

No? No? Do I need to say anymore because you're smiling? No?

No, no, no?

Is this all everything seems to be falling in line now? Okay, well what I kind of want to start with the beginning? Where were you born in?

Long Brunch, New Jersey? Really yeah, Jersey Shore Asbrey Park Deal, Long Brunch.

Okay, what do you know what your what was your first musical memory?

H Bobby v Mon mirtha K.

Yes, because my dad, my dad is is kind of a tri state do Wop legend. I know all those names, so you know.

What was the same Frankie Crawford, Crockerie proper you know, I think Wendy was on BLS two, you know, over the years. Anyway, that's how I got started, and it's all because of Billy Preston saying what you manage me? Then I got involved with the Beatles, and then I you know, but I flew. I took a loan out and bought two plane tickets and we went to George Harrison's out Billy and I.

But I went and.

I got a letter, and I know if I got George Harrison to sign it, you know that Allan Klein couldn't say anything. And I had already got an okay from herb Alert and Jerry Moss over at A and M. You remember them on Librea. And so we flew to Henley on Thames where George lived. We stayed overnight, we

Can I ask the question, though, since you had dealings with him, can you I've always heard sort of Albert Klein's name and throughout the years, especially with the way that sort of Paul McCartney speaks of how the ATV publishing situation went down with Michael Jackson or the lack of control that they had, like what was the the sort of the business operandi of managers back then, as in, like did the Beatles sign a particular contract on which

Or well, don't quote me on this, but I believe they were. They were signed as songwriters, you know, like a regular job that was better than working in a grocery store. So they were a songwriters. So sort of like the Brill Building or like exactly the Brill Building, you know, with Carol King and and you know, I could name them all, but I'm trying to concentrate.

You know.

And uh uh And so you know, I just saw that's on Hulu, the one two three with Rick Rubin that just came out. I think, so sold of Summers on Hulu too, right or it is? Yeah, And so you know, I just noticed in the last month or so quest that the janitor used to pick up the lyrics at South of These at Southern The's as a function. You know, Paul didn't know about it. Howard Howard Stern as him. How did that guy end up with the lyrics? You know when we were songwriters, we just ripped the page,

You know.

So so like most acts you know that have been taken advantage of, you know, back then, you know, they didn't pay it. They were happy to get three percent royalty, you know, they were happy to be a songwriter. Well, these people were becoming the publishers and co songwriters, you know, and and and it was just a way of doing business. I don't want to say that it's so you know, it's the way they did business back then.

Can I ask you what year?

What year did that sort of strong arming mob mentality sort of stop? Like in other words, like when did the music industry become Starbucks where you couldn't mob your way with a baseball bat if you want to into a situation was like the in the mom and pop labels or or is it still happening?

You know?

There was Chess Records, uh Mars Chicago, yeahago, you know, and his father, Marshall's father was a strong arm kind of guy. We had when I first signed Rufus, which was Billy Preston's band, and they found this girl in Chicago who could see, you know, and just to just to you know, lighten up the conversation, we made a record deal at a company called ABC Records. What was his name, Otis Otis Smith was the black guy at the company. Let's call it urban, but they didn't use

Wait, wait, you're jumping everywhere. We're going to get to all that. We're going to go through all that. What I want to do is, well, one, what were you doing right before you managed Billy Preston?

What do you think it was about you that asked you to be his manager?

Like in terms of was it your organizational skills or like did you pursue him?

Did he pursue you?

It started with pr But let me even go back. I was I was a gifted athlete. I played football, basketball, and baseball.

You play football.

I was an end. I went on to West Virginia University and played on.

A scholarship defensive in or tight end.

At that time. It was a tight end end guys, you know. And so I had all these teammates growing up from the little league to the Babe Ruth. I didn't come from you know, Blonge Branches, a diverse community, and so you know, I was comfortable with everybody. It didn't you know, I didn't look at somebody, you know, he was, you know, my teammate. And so to my comfortable, you know, my my my being you know, was was teammates. You know, sports was my the only thing in my

You know, I.

Throw a lot of emotion into whatever I do. I don't know how to do anything one hundred percent. I have to do it one hundred and twenty percent if at sixty or seventy, I don't even want to be involved, man, I don't want to. I just delive it, breathe it, and do it. And I kind of got that way with Billy. You know, I saw how people were taking advantage of them. I saw how the Stones were just paying them as a sideman.

You know.

Yes, they would give him a gold record and so the you know, I met you know, Nick and George and Paul and Ringo, and you know, he'd sit there. They didn't give him music. He just played from a feeling. He could read music, you know, and so we just hit it off, and Uh, I made him a publishing deal. I made him a record deal, and then you know, then his band was Bobby Watson and Andre uh Andre Fisher, Watson and Tony Maiden.

Okay.

Was this was this before George and Lewis Johnson, the brothers Johnson came into play or were they were the Rufous guys with him before the brothers Johnson guys were there.

We only had one Johnson and that was the first. Then he you know, then we were getting touring opportunities and Johnson brothers were talented, so they went on their own. So he replaced them with Tony and Bobby, Tony Watson and Bob Okay. So that's how it came to be.

Right, I see when we called Preston the fifth beetle, was there actual? I mean, of course we know they imploded in seventy seventy one seventy, but was there actual serious talk about literally making him a fifth Beetle or did that fifth Beatle talk sort of happen after the fact, like after they broke up.

No, it was all part of Billy Preston's magic. He even in England he was known as he was the only one that was around them that wasn't a Beatle and so it was his ability to play and not

I'm still tripping on the fact that it might have been a black beatle at some point. Is that what y'all was saying, like that would have been? Was that really a conversation?

Yeah?

I mean he basically Billy Preston came to prominence even before as a solo artist because he was he was there for their very last show.

Were you there on that Rooftop show?

I was not there at the Rooftop Show. I was there for the Let It Be Sessions though, correct? Yes, Can you describe what those last days were like?

Was their tension in the air, like, how how especially with Phil Spector as a producer, like what was the just the general let It Be sessions like, especially with Preston's involvement with it.

You know, there was no you know, everybody had their quirks, everybody, you know, but the one thing in common was music. You know, nobody told anybody what to play. It was all done by Felix Crush you you know what I'm you know, kind of leading when you're writing a song, you know the trailer or Paul McCartney, is you know the road? He says, pass me the Salt and Pepper. I'm sure you've seen it. And Paul says, sergeant Pepper's what are you talking to me? He said, no, the

But did you send tension in the air like because they basically broke up on the record that Billy was involved with the most.

So I'm just trying to figure out, like how I did not?

I did not anything, you know, it was just a team of people playing music.

Can you describe what working with Jerry Moss and and Herb Albert were like in the sort of this the seventies incarnation of A and M Records.

There was another guy to Gil Frieson. I don't know what he does now, you know, but they were just absolutely incredible. You know, they had Lou Adler with what was his he had a record label within the Moss. So it was a I don't know if you remember they bought the I'm gonna say Laurel and Hardy studios.

So this Charlie Chaplin, Charlie Chaplin, Yeah, yeah, but.

Kind of a unique place in charn Carol Adler, Billy Preston, you know, the you know, all of the acts. Everybody was on the lot. You know, you had to reserve the studio. Sly wanted to record there. It became like a record plant the place to record.

You know, like that's crazy because you know we take an episode with Shaka at that building, you did.

Yeah, yeah, Shaka is up for.

Hall of Fame this year live Well she was nominated, but I'll try for next year.

You know.

I mean it's you know, it's you. That's a long story.

That's when you're when you're when you're getting the you know, the people to vote or however one gets on the Hall of Fame. Maybe maybe I can remind him that Diana hasn't been nominated us what that's right, Well, she's.

Not there as a solo act, but she's there as a supreme right, But the.

Same argument as Tina in a way, right, Like.

I mean, my personal opinion is it's like, once you're in the Hall of Fame, you should be in the Hall of Fame. I meant for me to do solo acts in that I mean, and that's basically just too nuanced the Hall of Fame as an entity, like, Okay, we need somebody exciting.

I don't know.

I kind of feel like, once you're in your bodies of work, isn't it like a body of work with But he had our whole body of work by ourself.

I get it.

But my whole thing is like, but when when we start like double dipping, then that just takes other other slots away from other people. Like in other words, if Tina, who's already in the rock and Roll Hall of Fame, weren't there, then I'm certain that Chicago, Chicago's Sokka would have been an easy ushering. I mean, it's it's I know, it's it's it's hard. I'm just trying to fix it, fix it.

I'm aware of it. There's two sides to every maybe three sides to every. And it's political too, you know, it's very political. You know, it's like the Grammys finally they made a chance, you know, I mean, you know, we could bring up the weekend, but you know, let's just stay focused here because I'm going then do you want to so?

Okay, So walk me through the process of in the early seventies, walk me through the process of.

What it really takes to break an artist open.

Now today we have a different mentality, of course, uh to be uh you know, you break your artists out on social media, which spreads faster. But in the seventies, with limited resources, as far as like talk shows are concern, music shows are concerned, like how do you strategize breaking enact like Billy Preston open, especially when like three of his biggest hits were instrumentals, right, speaking of space phrase, speaking of like all the all those all those like

Independence? Do you remember the old independent? Do you know that would promote your record, that could guarantee you a top fifty record?

Okay, walk us through that for our artists who doesn't know. Okay, So let's take a let's take a we'll it go or sing a simple I sing a simple no no, no, let's do we'll go round in circles.

So okay, we'll go round in circles?

Is complete it? Now, how do you break that open? What's the first thing that happens? What's the first phone call you make?

Jerry gill herb All believed in this song. There was rhythm, you know, there was a rhythm to it. It was something that you would repeat afterwards. And it was like the perfect song for them to get behind. And so they hired the promotion department had I would say, twenty independent guys that could program directors. Got to remember, there wasn't radio. Each didy had their own R and B. You know, it was either a black record or a white record or you know, every once in a while,

You know, walkas walkas like whatever. You're allowed to say.

What I mean, it's been written about a hitman, So okay, So at the time when you're hearing the song, are you guys instantly saying this song has the right elements to actually be a pop hit, or you're just like, let's establish him on the R and B chart first of all. It's like with with with his Beatles sort

We never thought. We always thought of pop and R and B at the time. We never we never categorized Billy as an R and B act or as you know, as a pop act. We just categorized him because of the Beatles, because of the interviews, and everybody wanted to know what it was like to play with the Beatles. We had some momentum, you know, is that wave you're waiting for? So now how do we ride that wave? You know? So the you know, we knew we had to get a I didn't pay for it, Billy didn't

You know, I didn't know they use that word out loud.

Yeah, that's an old term that I don't, you know, use it. TikTok is used now, that's what it was. I don't even know the algorithm for TikTok, but you know you got people popping up selling fifty million downloads, you know, from TikTok. I think somebody's selling algorithms.

You know, I always always wondered, I think.

That over a million TikTok to right box.

You know, driver's license is good, but come on, man, I mean you know.

You got Olivia Rodrigo smoke already nice, yeah, Rodrigo, And just.

Like that with anybody. You could take ten top artists and they didn't sell that many downloads, you know, So you know it's paola. I don't know. Maybe uh, maybe you know, the Chinese are selling the algorithms like Facebook doesn't. I don't even know anymore. But Iola was was you know, you remember going to court. Did I hied them?

No?

I didn't hire them. All the record companies did, you know? And they all got their hands slapped and then for a minute it never stopped until iHeart, or until there was one program director across the country. You know, I can't remember when it starts.

Think like the early two thousands, Like early.

Thousands, I'm gonna sound scan, Yeah, I think one sound scan came into play.

Then you couldn't just independently.

No, I was after that the man, I can't even give you a date because they're they're kind of convoluted.

Okay.

I've been on a couple of until at the time, and I know that for a lot of black acts in the seventies, it seemed like a whole new world of It's a whole new playing field because all the limitations that were there in the sixties, as far as non motown black acts in the fifties and forties and thirties and twenties and before the seventies, subtenly.

A brand new type of playing field.

I won't say that's an even level playing field, but I'll say that it was a new type of playing field, whereas black acts could sort of experience the kind of accolades and bells and whistles that were there for their rock or white counterparts. So that said, I know that in the seventies there was you there was Sheep Gordon, there was Freddy Demand, Bob Cavello, Ruffalo, and I forget yeah, for all those cats. Is it the equivalent of trying to muscle a rebound in an NBA game?

Like as far as.

As far as sports metaphors go, Well, no, no, no, I just mean in terms well, I'm just saying in terms of you know, someone's the big dog, you know, and you someone's the big dog in the game, and then you got to figure out how to also muscle your way.

Into a situation so that your act does get on Dinah Shore, or your act does get on Don Christmas Rock Concert, or your act does get his fifty spins a week on in particular radio station, like as far as your peers were concerned, at least for those those acts I name, am I naming the correct acts of managers that were the super like who who in your opinion, were like the top five managers for black acts that were crossover. I mean, do you agree that Demand, Freddie DeMann and Shep Gordon Madonna?

I think back then, but Shep Gordon was my friend, so so through Luther I had an act. You know, I think that Billy introduced me to Donnie Hathaway. Really yeah, but Luther was Shep's act that so was Alice Cooper. But I in a guy's a big accountant, accountant's office called Bert Padell, and yeah, you know what I mean. So it was on Broadway and Earl the prol Monroe had his little record company up there, and uh yeah, yeah, Michael Lang from Woodstock had Joe Cocker. That's how he

Wow.

Really yeah, for ten other acts. But I was involved with a promoter and I can't think of his name. Maybe it was Rob Delsner. Question, do you know who Ron Delsner is?

I've heard the name. Uh not, I've heard his name before.

Just then, he's the first one to do Central Park, He's the first one to clean it up. He did Elton John and Eric Clapton at Chase State during the summer and then we re saw the outfield while they had three away games. I mean, he is a legend, it and then Live Nation was formed from his He has still has the lease on Joan's Beech, which is

What was your phone book like?

Because I also know that relationships like just to be a manager, and you're naming all these names, I'm certain, And that's just like New York connections, I'm certain, like with Philly with Larry Marshak and all these like Ticket Tron and all all these other.

Spots, Billy Preston right too, Yeah, and the early seventies.

So it's just how exhausting is it maintaining relationships, especially when this is such a favor for a favor of business.

I'm still doing it, Crest, Okay, you know what I mean. I mean it's you know, I mean, I'll match my contacts to your contacts on my phone.

Man.

I mean, I'm still doing it. You know, I'm still friends with the guy that made the deal for Priority to go to EMI. You know, I stayed in this house. That was thirty years ago. He was also the CEO and Arista Records. You know, he was the CEO for Blackwell when Chris brought Bob Marley to America Island Records, Yellow Man, all of those people you too. I mean, I can go on and on how many acts that I've been around, but I developed these relates yellow man.

Wow, it's fascinating how your story is.

Chep's sounds so similar, especially in your beginnings, because it seemed like both of y'all had artists that just looked, I don't want to say, just looked at you, but had a conversation, looked at you and said you should be a manager, and it just built from there.

Yeah.

What do you think it is that those artists saw and you, Bob that made them say like, hey, we trust you to do this.

You know, I I have that that that you know Cresh plays the drugs. You know, you don't have some uh some hidden tell it. You know, I see on you know American Scott telling an autistic and can see can't talk, you know, when they'll sit in the sit at the piano and sound like Elton Job. I don't know, maybe I was, you know, you know the way Billy was taught by God to play the piano. You know, I don't think you can somebody to play baseball or basketball to either have it. You know, I don't care

That the guy from Wait a minute, you were part of Strong City.

I was half owner.

Yeah shit, okay, know that that's a busy B and yeah bussy.

B Lady B for Philadelphia, Yes, lady B. Well, I had a crush on her man.

We all did.

She still looks timeless. Wait okay, so since we're talking about that, can you what is your general rule of thumb for management? I know STEP's whole thing was like, uh, don't forget the cash. Rule number two is remember to always ever forget. Don't forget the cash. And then world number.

Three is always remember to never forget, don't get to get the cash.

But for you because even okay, like I know that even though I'm social, I don't really I'm a reluctant people person Like, I know that with managing, you have to sit and talk to people one on one.

You gotta talk with you, you gotta spend time.

I'm I'm personally I'm kind of a hands off guy and like I'll do just enough, just a nuanced a relationship. But I mean, was there ever a time in your especially in those like first ten years, where you got an eye roll because you gotta take this guy out to dinner in order to get spends here, or you know, whatever you did to negotiate Billy Preston for that Fast Break movie in the seventies or whatever.

What are your general rules of management?

There were no rules. I try to they liked people. Don Cornelius and I were friends before he put Billy Preston on. Don Cornelius and I played basketball with Mary Wilson's second husband, Pedro. You know, we had a regular game. I was up in Don's house a lot. He Don had a record label. I don't know if you know this, don't have a record label, and that he needed me in New York, you know, and you know I'm not

Thank you. We need it. Seemed like everybody needs.

And recording quest. I have a story that you might not think it's funny, but you know that's me.

Let's go, let's go.

Oh yeah, the understand.

Okay. So it just came to me, all right. So, uh, Diana and I are friends. She was picking out a gift for Barry Gordy. I happen to be in a clothing store. So the first time I meet Berry and Smoky and all of those people from Motown that Berry have them. You had an entourage, and We're having dinner

Yo.

There is.

Animation, good life.

There is our animation right there, laid and gentlemen, Oh my god, imagine.

The way they carried on.

And then Diana, I mean, Diana was feeling you. That's so much embarrassment. It's so much from something places.

Yeah, I just want to say, that's what we call it Colin Greens from here on out. That's ye. Wait, it's only almost an hour and we only got to one client.

Okay, with with Rufus and Shaka Khan, I gotta I gotta skip to rufins in Shaka Khan.

Yeah, what at what point do you enter?

Because I know that Rufus was a band on Epic Records before they went to ABC. How did how did you enter into uh managing Rufus in Shaka Khan.

I'm not sure if it was Bobby Watching or Tony Maiden. I was really close with one of them. I think it was Tony the guitar player because he used to play you remember they used to go mouth Easton put the chords and somehow yeah, yeah, you know, and so we have this relationship and Tony or Bobby found Shaka and it was Rufus and would I be interested in

You know.

So so it was, you know, I always went to if I didn't know something, I always got somebody better. Now I get people that are analytical strategic planners, you know. I never, you know, by the accountant that I got from Rufus. I never touched anybody's money. Never I get a and M to pay me my commission direct I had. They had an accountant that was an IRS agent, Billy and Shock, and they had total control over their money.

Let me let me ask you. In the in the imaging of Shaka Khan in the very beginning, you know, the group was kind of quote unquote green, and then you know, one or two three records in you know, this new image of Shaka, which is I guess probably the perfect balance of Betty Davis, who was totally wild, so wild in her imaging that you know she really kind of couldn't be marketed, and that of Tina Turner, like she sort of rode the middle of it. How

Well, if you notice on her early records, I tried to create a logo to keep her happy and Rufus happy and touring with the Stones. Those lips everybody today still knows all of those are the Rolling Stones. So if you look on the early albums, their logo were Shopa's Mouth. Okay, you'll see that red logo.

And I tried to drive it home and then I do that that that gave five year old mean nightmares with that big ass poster on the wall in the dark, Like, no, you can blame me for that.

Honestly, gosh that okay, well no, no, but she you know, she was wonderful.

You know.

I had this idea that she needed to be This is way before costumes and you know, and I thought she needed to be different, so I dressed her up. She kind of had this wild Indian look, and I happened to be in Denver, and you know, it started with a headdress and then it became an outfit and then you know, we built on it, you know. And she was really good to work with. I mean, she was you know, she was open to ideas. I can't say that there were a lot of those were my ideas,

I know Jimmy Her father used to be in The Quick? Really her father? Click? Wait, didn't he play Jackie Wilson in and.

Some Motown stuff? Yeah? He was. He was fun.

Played Jackie Wilson in a movie singing stop Dogging Me Around.

I forget one of those.

Was it not lebamb but like he yeah, I remember L. L. Varner's dad was in a group called Click.

They're friends of mine, you know, And I'm just I'm just thinking how I could keep me entertaining and and throw some stuff out there. Shaka Shaka was really easy, uh, and you got her. Remember I'm traveling around with Nick Jagger and Nobody. Nobody. I mean, they're better live than they are by records. You know, I I absorb a lot. I take it in like a sponge. And so I'm watching Nick. You know, they're not selling all these records,

We were just talking about like marketing Shaka's wildness in a way that you know, I mean, in my opinion, like she definitely was one of the first artists that really in a nuanced way sold her sexuality in a way that was definitely pushing the envelope, but not like where Prince would really take it further, and you know the eighties. But I mean for me, that was revolutionary in the seventies.

Sexy, sweet and kind of in natural in a way where.

You look at all them.

Yeah, but no, I mean I'm watching all like she you know, yes, I got it, Yeah, yeah, yeah she you know, she used what she got to get what she want.

That was all influenced by and and the way he pranstaged and the boas and the stuff that he wore. That's around the time of David Bowie, you know. And if you would, Mike, you see David or you know.

You know.

So I saw this happening and I tried to bring it out into in Shaka. I thought she was beautiful and she was sexy and without being you know, today it's almost overdone. You know, we didn't we working back then, but we can be from and want to see more. So I was always careful not to offend anybody, you know. You know, we all remember the Shannon Jackson and the Justin Timberlake. I mean, so many stories pressed the flood in and out of my head.

There's the question I always wanted to know though, Like one of my all time favorite records, Rufus and Chaka Khan was their album Asked Rufus in seventy seven. But I also know that the group imploded that year. And that's before you know, they had to you know, replace musicians and whatnot. Can you what was the situation like in seventy seven that broke the band, the original incarnation of Rufus and Shaka Khan?

What was that?

What was the situation that made that happen? If you can get into it.

Every band, every band goes through this, you know, every band, you know, when they get too old, you can't get back together. But I see Journeys playing Jon's speech. You know, they all start to think. With success, you know, they all have opinions that they didn't have before. You know, when you're trying to make it, it's not so easy, you know, to explain. But I saw the friction, you know, as it was happening, and I you know, then we

How much babysitting did you have to do as far as like, did you have to operate out of your office or was it like mandatory for you to be on site at all times to make sure that everything right swimming?

I had an office, you know, building Johnny Kershner with my tenants. Yeah, per Sugarman. Do you know who that is?

Yes? No pursum in Midnight Special, Yes, Yeah, I was.

I was.

I was a kid that had to go to bed at eight o'clock, but his parents were cool enough to wake him up at like midnight to watch all those shows. So I go to bed at eight, they wake me up at eleven forty five. I watched those shows till two am, then go back to sleep. So we didn't have We didn't have VCRs back then, so it's sort of like, this is your only chances. The earth went fire, so we.

Got in trouble. He didn't have streaming, we didn't have cell phones. If you're in Houston, Texas, what are you gonna do? So, you know, I would always organize that we take the two one bedroom suites that make one big living room. So we would get sledge hammers and because you you know, when you're in Atlanta, there's nothing to do, so we'd remove the wall and have a big giant suite, you know, so it would be a two bedroom with an enormous suite. But we get the

You could do that.

Break them out.

You could just sledge hammer a room down and the hotel be like all right, cool.

So to make the two living rooms one big room. Yeah, all the time.

So hotel damaging.

Was this the seventies thing, like okay, well we'll pay the Keith Moon he was he was scared of me.

Yes, I know who of.

All your clients, who was the most unruly in terms of gotta get bail money or gotta make sure the press doesn't hear about this, or all right, how much hotel damage did they do? Or the plane or without saying stories, can you just say the one artist that you kind of had to have an eye on more than the other.

One, Billy Preston. Okay, I'm with you. Do him a favor. In between his houses, I registered his car to my office building. It was still in his name, but so that we could get insurance on his cars because he was moving into Japanga Canyon. I will tell you he was in the studio with sly Stone with Phil Spector when they did all of this crazy stuff.

That's all you have to say.

Don't know they need beer. So Billy has a little friend and he goes to the seven eleven. Hypothetically, I don't know where he went. He runs over ten people and hits about fifteen cars and brings back studio okay, and never says a thing.

Wait, as warmer time, please say that story one more time.

That makes sure I heard it correctly.

So they want some Cavasier and some beer. So they send out one of the roadies or whatever you want to, you know, one of Billy's friends, and they send them out in Billy's car to go and buy beer. Well, he ran over you know, six or seven people. He hit about fifteen cars and then came back never said a thing. Luckily, my roommate was Bob Shapiro.

Okay before wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.

He that was your roommate with the assistant district attorney after Brad Well, somebody introduced me and I said, could I stay there for a week. I'm just getting acclimated. And I stayed there for two years? Okay, yeah, And so you know, so I mean with Billy, with Shaka, I mean he was on speed dial with everybody would call me because from my roommate was Bob Shapiro.

Oh ja, I mean I don't know, oh ja, legal zoom, thank you, Bob.

That's right, yes, yes.

The Honest company with Jessica album. You don't know that. That's Jesus Christ. Oh you're the greed is nothing compared to Honest. But there are eight hundred lawyers. But you know, and so Billy was, you know, that's just one of many stories. Okay, Billy Preston, but that's a good one, thank you. Okay, she's I.

Just want to know that there was anybody who who they wanted you to manage them and you were like, it's not a good fit.

Yeah, who did you turn away that asked you demanded the best one?

And for a Dean will tell you. You know, when they came to me, I said, I'm too busy.

Oh wow, wow at the time, who were you busy with?

Billy?

And he'll say, you know, maybe you know, fifty years later, maybe you should have thought about managing me because they're round and they're still unbelievable lives that part.

Wow.

Wait, this is the question I always had wanted to know, and even when I played with him, I forgot to ask. I'm asking about ron Wood right now, his very first record. I've got my own album to do. Were you his manager at the time in Faces and Small Faces or were you as manager at the top of ron Wood's career.

I was not. That was the end of Ronnie Wood's career. That's going back, that's even back before Billy the Faces and Rod Stewart.

Okay, so you you came to ride ron at the beginning of his solo career after he left Faces.

Yes, well not even he had a solo career, I want to be correct. He had a solo career and had an album out I think on Warner Brothers, but you know, it wasn't it wasn't going anywhere. He didn't really have a manager. Uh, they're a manager, and then there's managers, you know, and so there are agents, agents and of course I don't have to tell you you've probably been through a few over the years.

So just one.

Right, That's how I am. One person.

Respect loyalty man, I really do. But you know, wood he came to me through a divorce and I knew the Stones. The Stones contacted me because of Billy pressed it okay, and then I found out they needed a guitar player and they interviewed Jeff Beck but he was out there and they interviewed Jeff Beck. I remember flying to Amsterdam. I remember flying Woody to Amsterdam, I remember. And he had that personality to clicked with Keith like Billy did. And uh, you know, they they had to

I'm on it. Can you settle this debate?

Is it true that Billy Preston is really one of the co authors of the Stones Miss You?

You know?

And that's one became a monstrous hit.

I've heard rumors and stories that they were Tory in Paris or whatever. And then Billy Preston played a riff and then Mick was like, what's that was?

That?

Was that?

Let's work on it.

Was he ever properly compensated or included as a songwriter or miss You?

Or was it just all glimmer twins and we'll just keep you on payroll?

Glimmer twins. Damn, yeah, Glimmer twins.

Thanks. Are there any other stories similar to that? Like what did he co write My Sweet Lord to?

Or No, My Sweet Lords is all Billy? That's okay, damn, that's all you know, That's that's his roots. That's from growing up in James Cleveland's church, you know, that's that's what he believed in, you know, the Joe cockerhead. I mean, you know Billy played cake walk. I mean I learned how to cakewalk.

No, it's funny because I was, like, you know, when.

You of the music, you get up and your parents are in a in a in a black church.

Okay, are you just when is the last time a white person taught us the black ship? Never happen before?

Ever. This is a big night. If it was going to be somebody you got to see me moon walk and you.

Get more walk to Okay, so walk walk moon walk.

Okay, we got it all.

So wait, Bob, I'm sorry, I mean said not what I'll be a crass, but I have a feeling like, was was Diana your first sister?

Was was Diana your first sister?

Yes? Really? Yes?

Was she your last?

Yes?

Really?

Books?

Okay, actually say I do have a question. Did you manage Diana Ross or was she just your wife at the time?

She was just my wife at the time, and the very worthy Diana think was just too strong, you know found yes, you know she went to RCA, you know, so did Michael go to you know, Columbia. You know, you know, I have the I have nothing but respect from what Barry created and the whole thing. I'll just leave it at that, you know. But people grow up, you know, and start to ask questions. And so from the seventies to the eighties we see as we see

But they also did they understand their position and why you know, they kind of been pushed forward even past. You know, it's interesting in that way, right because they have succeeded and sold more record than because of this.

You know, what can I say? You know a lot of people, a lot of people got rich on the on the back of other people. You know, it's it doesn't it's not only the music business. Look at the basketball players, the foot players. Look at this guy that did sixty minutes with the baseball players coming out of d R and Cuba, you know, giving them the advance because there's you know, eight people sleep into a room,

Well, yeah, because the way you just broke it down to Bob is like based on at least Billy Preston's story. And what we just talked about is like with Muddy Waters and all those folks, it's like this music business was on their backs and you know most of them didn't receive accolades. Are cool, but again, right, and that still is what it is when the music business become.

A billion trillion dollar situation. So it's just it's fascinating in the music business in that way. How it's just literally on their backs.

You know, we've seen a tremendous change. You know when the Apple came along with the iPod, you know, when then there was a Spotify. But before that, there was a company at Australia that was playing songs on the internet. Uh it was actually a Facebook movie because he was one of the investors in Facebook.

What was then.

Yes, thank you, thank you. Do you know, do you remember any of those stories. Napster was the first streaming service for music, but you didn't nobody got paid. It was like the boats off of England that could broadcast you know, rock and roll music, pirate radio. Yeah, I've seen some headshaking you you remember those stories. Yeah, of course there was a film done.

I love that film. I saw that it was good about the.

You know, we're going about fifty five years.

What was it about meat Loof that told you, all right, I'm gonna take a chance on this guy, because you know, even with even with sort of Todd Rundron And I said that, uh, incorrect, because Steve's not here to correct me. He gets mad when I mispronounced Tod's name. My pelt Philadelphia. No, no, no, But how what was it about meat Loaf? Because I, I mean, I know that, you know, in the seventies

Like you had to have a look, a good look or a unique look, memorable look.

After that point, now we're sort of like getting away from body steaming all those things.

But it was like at the time.

When you're being approached by Meatloaf, like what was it about him that said, you know what, this is gonna work?

You know?

And how did you get twelve million people to agree with you?

You know?

Once again, you know, I was around. I got to see the Who Do Tommy, which is the first opera rock and roll opera. Tina Turner was.

Acid Queen a Queen Theater, High Theater, yeah, Radio City and.

At the Palladium or whatever it was in England. You know. I I think that helped her career, you know, by being involved crossover kind of. I don't know if it crossed over, but this rock and roll opera, and I knew that there was something there, you know, and neat Loaf, although I wasn't the first manager, but Todd Rundgod was, you know, was Jim Steinman and Todd are the reason

You know.

It's when we had Biro, when Emerson Lake and Palmer, the piano would go around while he's playing the grand piano, The entire piano was going around. If you ever saw some of those bands, and the special effect that they had was incredible. So I mean, I'm seeing at Zeppelin ping Floyd. You remember they used to fly things in the air that he was there. You know, I'm aware of it. So I tried to bring it into a stage performance where you know, I had a forty foot motorcycle.

But what I want to know is that ba Al of Hell was his first record.

So it's like I would think in breaking an artist like you start off small, like you, you know, you play the troubadour, you play the thing. But I mean, am I to believe that this unknown, unproven act just comes out the gate and you're instantly thinking, and I know it had to be costly expensive rock opera and we're gonna sell gazillion units.

It's not even gonna believe this story, and you can't make this stuff up. Then if the rented comes out, okay, you know he's an ex football player, aligneman, I mean, he's bigger than life, okay, and it's time to tour and he loses his voice for eight months, do you

Was he psychosomatic? Do you think?

Oh? I think we all are.

Okay.

I was about to say eight months and losing your voice. That's that's fear right there.

That's fear. Fear of success, fear of everything. But I mean it came out in a way where it wasn't nerves or not sleep. It came out where he he couldn't sing. I'm telling you he couldn't sing. And so once again being at the right place and timing and everything, So what's happening is that there's who's meat up? Where is he? Why doesn't he perform? He can't even do

So he had an eight month sort of build up thing, six or eight months, remember.

Yeah, no, but David Sonnenberg was the original manager. But you know, he had successful acts and didn't want to deal with somebody. You know, it all happened kind of suddenly, and of course he lost his voice, and then you know, I met him and I said, Oh my gosh, you know, I know his voice is going to come back, right, and that's how that that's how come he came onto

Now you're here now, so wait were you? Were you his manager?

Also between both album because I know that after a bat out of the hell he took an eight to well break, I believe before.

We went to Tom down at Criteria. Do you remember Criteria in you know, Tom Dowd was like the Wall of Sound with Phil Spector, Tom Dowd and Muscle Shoals. I don't know if you have ever seen the Netflix special on that white rhythm section that was doing a great black artists. You know they were realies, but man,

I mean I barely know it. Yes, I know the hard way.

You know, do the video. You want to spend one hundred Brad, here's one hundred grad. But it's recoupable. And before you knew it, you know, he was in debt to Colombia to Epic in such yet there was no way if he had another bat out of hell, that he could pay them back. And so you know, there was a way to get out of that debt and that was called bankruptcy. And then your contracts became null and void.

And so.

Eight years I get it, wow, really with a new deal, but I didn't say it. So he could he could.

Survive for eight years without neither hit North and he didn't care like the age of videos going by and all those things.

And I mean, you know he came back with whatever, I won't do that.

I forget the name of the sign came I mean he came back, but still that that's a hell of a risk just for bankruptcy.

Well, you know, like Billy Preston had A and M records, we had Aristo records England that couldn't wait to sign them. And I don't think it was eight years. I think it was more like five or six years in between records. But what brought him back a second time was that he went back to Jim Steinman. Bonnie Tyler had which was meat Love's song, but that was really for meat Love, but they were few likes and Chocolate everybody else like

You're so right, dude, totally Clips of the Heart is such a total song.

More hero.

Hero ship.

That stop after twelve seconds by right, right, Okay, I do all right. My last two main questions. I know that Franklin as I was also one of your clients. Hele were there any other clients clients that you have that we don't know about or for a brief time.

I had I was spending so much time in England, I made friends with other masters. I can't think of his name, but Whim was one of his groups. Curiosity Killed the Cat, the Stranglers. If you look at the Stranglers, they were like, you know, like some of those uh punk rock fans that had a bit of success, but you the guy didn't want to travel back to New York or the United States. So I would handle not that,

So when their actually come to the States, you sort of tag team and sort of co manage.

The agents to the whole nine yards. I was able to handle their their American tours. Yes, at what point, well.

You mentioned when at all did you have to deal with them when when those albums were first coming out or make It Big or the Fantastic record the beginning.

No, I was. I was very good friends with their manager, and so it brought me into the you know, into the chip boardens of England, you know, and so one relationship led to another relationship. You can remember. It was my life, you know, and so you know I was very comfortable in England in the music industry. You know, of course, traveling with uh you know, with the Stones, and you know I was I was part of that.

Uh.

You know, I Walter was a very good friend. In fact, you brought up a name, Howling at the Moon. Did you ever read his book?

I just got done read that was one of my pandemic books. Yes, that's a crazy story.

It's absolutely crazy. We're not going to go there. But trust me, I was the Moon, you know he was. He was a great friend of mine. As crazy as he was, he was loyal. Uh he was.

You know.

I have the most respect for him. And a lot of the English fan that I managed in this country came through Walter. In fact, he put me up from Curiosity Killed the Cat. Okay, so a three hit miracle bad all three good looking kids you know that could really sing like BTS or something like that. But you know, forty years ago, but you read Holly Howy at the Moon.

I've read it.

Trust me, there is there a point where was there ever a point in the eighties or the nineties where you're just like, I'm lost, Like every manager sort of has a breaking point with even with label CEOs. You mentioned Walter yet in a coffin. You know, he's very forthcoming with like his cocaine addiction and that sort of like sort of did him under. Shep of course made it known that, you know, having almost two cardiac arrests total.

Shep did one other thing. He discovered chefs, so Emerald Lagassi before there were chefs the men, so his special it's very special because he's he's the one that kind of created the chefs for the Food Network. There wouldn't have been to Gordon Ramsey, there wouldn't have been Bobby Flay, there wouldn't have been you if it wasn't for chef.

That's how I got connected with Shep. My my friendship with him was actually in his food world. And then you know he told me about Teddy Pintograss and everyone beforehand. But yeah, in the food world, that's you know that was his pivot. Did you did you wind up having any other? Well, I know now you're you're involved in the the the long overdue hip Hop Museum.

First of all, what can you explain?

What what the what the general plan is with the Hip Hop Museum and and as far as like building in and structuring it.

We broke round, you know, about three or four months ago. H L.

I wasn't invited, but okay, yeah, email if.

We couldn't get your even even with the d M. Finally we were able to communicate.

But down in the I did real snarky on Twitter before I got an answer back, But go ahead, No, I was working that day.

No, No, it's fine, it's fine. Look at we're together now, that's what's important, you know what I mean. And so we had nas, we had Slick Rick, uh, Fat Joe, a lot of these. You know, I think Noazz is from Queen's Fat Joe Bronx. But hip hop started in the Bronx. I mean, there's no doubt about that, you know. And of course we lost Biz Marquee. Uh. This we so Rocky's dream for the last nine years, and once again I did Strong City with Rocky Butanan, it is his dream, it is his idea. He's the CEO of

Is that why you decided to be on the on the committee?

Oh no, but I mean Rocky's my friend for thirty year. But I mean, come on, man, I mean you know, I mean, you know sometimes you know, Rocky needed help with Song City. I went to Universal and this is you know, this to me. If I can help Rocky, Wow, what a way to go out, you know, I mean, so keeping me really active. You know, we're trying to put on Orchard Beach. Uh and welcome back to New York.

Twenty four We used to see completion on this.

Yes, absolutely, all right, I'm.

Gonna get my contribution on so I can earn the quest level wing like.

To be involved. We don't want your money, we want you I feel you, feel you.

Okay, because I just want to know.

Okay, so you know, as you know, one of the reasons that we brought you to the show is because we were talking to your daughter Tracy, and I have forgot yes, and I have to ask you because if anybody follows you on Instagram, you're the ultimate grandpa. You the ultimate girl dad with Ronda and Chutney and Tracy of course, but I want to know for you and Diana, because Tracy talks about her upbringing and how she never felt at a loss like her mom was a superstar,

How did you make a conscious decision to make sure that happened.

We both saw our weaknesses. I was lucky enough to go to college. You know. Diana stand started six singing when she was sixteen. We never saw other people. We never saw color in our house. We saw other people. We were able to talk about it. You know, that's fifty three years ago. We just celebrated. I didn't celebrate. I mean, I just this past January. I married her fifty years ago. You know, I know her for fifty three years. We were conscious of the way they were

Yes it does.

Yeah, I was on ninety five. I'll never forget this story. Well, one time on the way to school, she was telling me which way to go and she had her foot up on the seat. I took a shoe and I threw it out on Park Avenue Tracy store. She bought some pants. She put it twenty five. She needs the pants dead. Can you pick them up? Can you pick them up? A Parisuaye pants? The guy said there was seventh. Now you gotta remember, you know, she's sixteen or fourteen.

It's a star all day.

You know, I'm making what is the name hero, I make my own robots with their own costumes, and I try it out and do them. So it's staying involved. It's being aware. It's just it's it's a strange time in this country, and so you know, some things you want to share, some things you don't want to share with children. It's just being aware and you know, everybody's got to get together. It's all about love. I mean, it really is.

There you go, you know there it is.

Well, you know I was told not to call you mister Ellis. No, no, you're you're my pal, Bob. Bob, thank you for coming on the show once again. Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Bob Ellis, uh On behalf of Sugar, Steve and Fon, Tigelow and unpaid Bill and like, yeah, uh this is Quest Love another educational Quest Love Supreme.

We we will see you. Oh wait did I say something.

No, I was I was agreeing with you want education.

I'm sorry my bad thought. I was like, wait, this is Quest Love Supreme and we will see you on the next go round. All right, thank you very much.

Yo.

What's up?

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