QLS Classic: Wayne Shorter

I'm talking about his tenure with Miles Davis. Also with the occasional side gig with Donald Byrd or McCoy, Tyner or Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Lee Morgan, Freddy Hubbard, Carlos Santana, Cindy Blackman, Santana, Marcus Miller, and even an opera with a great Esperanza Spaulding. And of course I'd be remiss if we didn't mention his spell bonding work with one of the greatest creatives of musicians ever gathered. Of course, I'm talking about weather Report. We got to speak to

Wayne brother Wayne June of twenty twenty two. He was happy to share his work about his journey as a musician, as a creative, as a Buddhist and as a human being. We just want to offer condulsis to his family, to his friends and his loved ones, and we celebrate his life's work. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. Your host question, Love, Oh, I'm sorry. Are you know? Are recently awarded Webby Award

winning Quest Loves three times. It's the third one I have yet. I have yet to see those trophies, but I trust that we've won those dings. So in the record books, do you know who they're sending those two like you at all? I don't know, somebody in the sky. I have no idea, but there are a lot of emails being sent, So there's there's uh yeah, I was gonna say, uh, you know somewhere out there, Uh they're they're living their dream as Quest Love Supreme Award winners.

But you know that's neither here nor there, you know, because besides getting actual statues and accolades, I'll say that the joy of doing this podcast is, you know, it's just every episode we just get educated legend after legend after legend, and today is absolutely positively no exception to that rule. Simply put today, Our Guests is probably one of the greatest musicians, one of the greatest composers, one of the greatest band leaders, probably one of the greatest improvisers.

I mean, when you really talk about the genre of a free jazz and fusion or whatever you want to call it, you know, our Our Guests is beyond pioneer. Like see him Moore as as a painter, as an artist who probably I'll say that his greatest weapon is just his ability to create synesthesia and us with the colors that he paints, with his with his compositions and with his uh with his actual playing. Probably one of

the greatest time travels of music. I mean every ever play with everybody, every every project of his story career, from being a member of the legendary Art Blakey Jazz Messengers, you know, playing with like Lee Morgan, Bobby Timmans, Baby parrott Um, one of the i mean one of the prime architects of the greatest quintets and the history jazz with with Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Tony Williams, with what we call the second great quintet Um, even

down to forming weather Report with Josell and playing with like Jacob Stores and Alfonso Johnson and Victor Bailey and all these greats um even to his own work. If if if I do this intro, the show will be over before we even get to question. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome and give it, give us the honor of welcoming one of the greatest architects in music, not the one and the only Wayne Short. Thank you very much

for doing me. Hello, Hello, Hello, everybody. Thank you that introduction. Thanks, But really it really belongs to all of the cats. I call them the cats, and I even called the guys from the classical area they were cats and didn't know it. Yeah. So right now, where are you speaking to us from? Where are you at right now currently? Well, I'm right here in California, Los Angeles. That's where you live right now, at home? Yeah, okay, how long has

that been your home out there? Well, I've been here since nineteen seventy two, seventy one, seventy two, but seven years in Florida, then moved back to California. Yeah. Now, normally you know, when I when I do this show and try to go through the genealogy, but you know, you have seven decades of creativity under your belt, so we wouldn't even scratch the surface. So I kind of want to just do sort of random questioning. Now you mentioned California, and there's a myth I would like you

to settle with me. You know, I come from the world of hip hop, and you know hip hop has been very territorial. You know, the type of hip hop that comes from New York is different than that of down South, that's different than that of the West Coast.

But can you is there any theory on why you believe or I've always felt that California has never truly gotten its respect in terms of of jazz music, Like I've always heard that, you know, no self respecting musician would ever you know, stay in California like you, you would stay in New York, where the heart of creativity is. But what was it about California that drew you to it? And did you ever adhere to jazz snobs that you know, the jazz police whatever that always looked down on California

And yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Well, one of the first thing where I moved to California was a medical reason. I had a daughter who was acquired brain damage when she was born, and then the four seasons on the East Coast. The doctor says she would get colds from some of the drafts and some of the departments, you know, like with windows and stuff like that, and then she would be have seizures. Sometimes she would

have fifteen seizures in a day. And they said, you have to be to go to a warm climate, like with two major climates summer in spring, or go to California or something like that. So that's we moved from

New York to California. And while we were moving, we found out people were moving too, but they didn't have medical reasons, but they like Herbie Hancocks, he moved just before I did Chick Korea Joe's Avenue, and A, yeah, they were, And I was thinking they were moving to where jazz was needed in a sense, yeah, you know.

And I got that by observing Charlie Parker when he was out here and he was hede beating and relaxing it in California and playing some of the places and picking up other the West Coast musicians to play with him, and uh, I saw him pictures of him rehearsing with Leanna Tristano, Lee Konitz and the guys who you know out here, the Jet Baker and uh but Johnnie Parker, he would play bar mits uh anywhere see with Charlie Barker.

I'm saying where you were didn't matter. He was so I mean the movie where he was singing Mario Orlansis being my Love, right, Yeah, Bars Whittaker was actually acting and singing, you know. And Uh. While I'm mentioning this, I like to mention a musician who passed away. I didn't know he had passed away. His name was Bernard, right, yet he was kind of wild and everything. I didn't I didn't realize he came out of the church when

he was young. But he was one of the guys who played uh, synthesizer any way he wanted to and piano. It didn't matter where he was. I'm sticking on this where you are location thing. And we have a little thing we say and talk about in the in Buddhism, when you're pack your suitcase, you're gonna move somewhere where you think you you better off. There's a little guy sitting on the suitcase named Karma talking about what took you so long, I'm going with you, so you're gonna

take your environment with you. And never giving up is my model. Never give up and don't let where you are Foolia, that's it, okay. You you mentioned um being a practicing Buddhist. You know, one of the first people that I've ever heard mentioning that they were practicing Buddhists

was Herbie Hancock. Is it safe to assume that both of you discovered this at the same time or were you too a part of each other's process and studying Buddhism, because you know, even back I remember interviews as early as like nineteen seventy one of him speaking of his Buddhist practice. When did you become a Buddhist? Well, actually nineteen seventy three I took up the mantle so to speak to Japan without you know, and my wife at the time, Anna Maria, she's the one who passed away

on t wa uh. She was nailing something on the wall one month one morning in California in our first house. She's nailing something to the wall, and I said, what you're doing? Three o'clock in the morning, And she said, I just came from Herbie's house this afternoon, and he was telling me about this uh practice of Buddhism. And what we learned from Herbie was he learned it from

Buster Williams. He learned about it from Buster Williams. But the will and said he learned about it from his wife, Ronnie Vernica Ronica Williams, when when he was about fresh out of high school. And uh so, Herbie said, why don't you check it out for your daughter's sake, because our daughter was born with these seizures and all that. So we thought maybe we would check out the philosophy

and see how it connects with our daughter. Our daughter did pass away at age fifteen of a grandma seizure here in California, But the wise practitioners of Buddhism say she came with brain damage. But she completed her mission, and our mission was to expose her parents to the ultimate law of life, the ultimate law of of their life, that that you are eternal and stuff like that. There's

a lot of the same things. But she came to wake us up, even though she didn't she only had a few words, a few words to speak and stuff like that. But her life was not in vain. So we're looking at a lot of other people who who kind of think something is in vain. There's no used to do this. I'm gonna give up on that. I got. I got a bunch of shirts out here it says never give up on the shirt, so that that's uh, it's not so much trying to be perfect and be

a religious person. In fact, some of us who practice this Buddhism get wilder. Oh hey, I mean, you know, or anything where the report comes next. So, of course, because the thing is, especially with the history of of our people in this country with black people. Yeah, I always wondered, you know, how hard of a decision was that to me, you know, because I think that black people were always trained to, you know, like we must

only follow Christianity and any other philosophy. Like Maurice White would tell me that when he was sort of practicing his spirituality that it was really controversial with everyday blacks because it wasn't under the trope of like God, Jesus and Christianity. But for you to do that so early, especially now that we're more open to I guess following

our hearts and following traditions and ways whatnot. You know, how was was this easy for the people around you, your family members or your friends or whatever like to except where you were going, or did they just look at you like an alien Like I was forty or forty one, where when I thought, you know, I think, I said, I got it together. I know, you know, I can, I can take care of myself. It's there's a point where some of us think we know everything.

We can end the living in it's coming our way. And when I was forty, I stopped to think about my daughter's seizures, how she came into the world with the brain damage and all that, and I was I started thinking about this. I said, wait a minute, there is some stuff I don't know about. So I started listening to what some of the people I knew. Of course, it was her being Buster Williams, my wife at the time, Anna Maria. She started working on this listening to philosophy

before I did. And I when I went on a tour in nineteen seventy three, July three to Japan, and when we all left with what report we all left, and when stopped in Hawaii, I stopped in Hawaii behind them, took another plate and got in a small hotel by myself because I was actually handling alcohol. So I want to be myself. When we had two days off before we did a concert in Hawaii and just get ripped.

I not just getting ripped, the sloppy and everything. I've got me a new suit, pantamat suit, and I walk around acting like I can handle everything. And I went from nightclub to nightclub, sitting at the bar talking philosophy from Jian philosophy with people and all that. And they told me, once you start to do this practice as a Buddhism Buddhist, all of us jumps that you have in you was gonna come out and say it's it's like a water hose and garden water hose that hasn't

been used in a long time. And when you plush it with this philosophy, the first thing that comes up, there's a lot of leaves and rusts and everything like that out of your life. And I was saying, whoa I thought I was? You know? So I was. They even had a what do you call a missing person call or me in Hawaii couldn't find until it was time to play the gig, and I went. I got myself together and then joined the band and they said,

you scared us to death. Man with so uh that I had gone to a temple in Japan and what do you call it? Received something called I don't want to see me the words, but Gujakai. Tina Turner has a book out on this stuff. She has a whole explanation of stuff. And I like that. And I received it. And the temple it's only a little baby and myself and the baby's mother and the temple, and we received something,

and we said we're gonna practice this practice. So anyway, the thing about playing different once you start doing stuff like this a different. What Herbie said was he heard Buster Williams take a bass solo one night. Maybe you heard about this. I mean, this is classic. He took a bass solo. They were playing at the Penthouse in the Seattle Can't Panhouse Niper when when Buster finished, the applause wouldn't stop. That it was one of the longest applause the Herbie ever heard. And they got an the

dressed room. He said, Buster, what you've been doing? Explained to him a little bit about what he's doing. So Herby, I want to try what's going on. And that was that was when he got what he called that hit, that dead, that dead right. Okay, okay, okay, okay, that's how changed his sound. Okay, well, actually people, he didn't want people to think, when you start practicing a philosophy, you to get hit records. No, but but Herbie got a hit before the water. Another man hit the one

dude a million. But I always thought that Herbie had a lucky star over his head ever since I met him in nineteen sixty three. He's one of those guys in school. There's another guy with the school with you, like Herbie basic where he's a diplomat now. Anyways, anyway, just like Herbye, they had this lucky star over the head all their lives. I said, Man, nothing nothing funny ever happened to them. Good. But I learned quickly you

can't count your blessing by watching your neighbor's treasure. Truth you call it. I took to myself, shut up and be cool, and I stopped. I stopped talking. I went to the meeting. We had meetings at our house, had a lot of meetings at our house. People and a lot of name dropping people who came to the meetings, you know, people who wanted to be movie stars and all that wanted to get this, but uh, you'd be

surprised the names are. You know, I'm not gonna say the names, but if everything every now and then I would say a name of a person who came to our house to a meeting, and somebody would say, oh, your name dropping, Now your name dropped. But I cut them off and say, no, I'm not name dropping, I'm named lifting. One question I had for you, mister Shorter,

how did you get the nickname mister Gone? Oh? Yeah, I was in the Brazil and we all had We all went to Brazil to do festival there, and then the band came back to the United States early to do this record. I ate another month in Brazil while they were making a record, and they were making some music. They were the name they name did it after me? It? Joe? Come, let's call this one, mister Gone. I really liked Joe's piece Young and Fine on that on that album. Time. Yeah. Yeah,

I briefly met you once, um at a festival. I mean this is like twenty years ago or twenty maybe twenty five years ago, and just briefly talking. And I believe you told me that you didn't even start your craft and playing uh, clarinet and saxophone until you were like well into your teens, so you know, and I really did because we were in passing. I always wanted to ask you. So you're telling me that I would have thought that you would have came out the room,

you know, with with with with the accent hands. How did how did you discover your talents at such kind of a late stage in your life? Well, actually, I used to play hookie from when I started high school. I played hookie go to the movies, walk and walk past to school and going down to downtown to movie theater and I used to go see uh, like two movies and the stage show. And the stage show was

at the theater is called the Adams Theater. And there was Dizzy Lesbi you don't know a Jacket and his brother Russell Jacket, and the thing called the Jazz at the Philharmonics. I'm I'm I'm watching this stuff listening. I was about fifteen then, and there's a music store right around the corner from the high school. I used to walk by this music store and look in the window. I was majoring in art and I found myself cutting classes just go looking at music, look at the instruments

in the music store. Then I got me uh for a dollar something dollars fifty A little thing looks like a submarine called a tonette, a plastic It's like a plastic flute at six holes. I got it, and I used to walk around the neighborhood blowing on this thing, like do do do do? Do? Do do do? And my mother said, whenever she wanted to get me to come into a dinner, she oh, she had just opened the window, and here where I was, here where I was at, But I know where you're at. So then

I started fingering this thing. No instructions. I just saw do do do you know? Playing with it? And when I went to see the stage shows, I hear them playing, Um they did they did? Did they? And I mashed the holes on this little it looks like a submarine. I mashed the DoD do do? I try to mash what I heard? And then I looked in the window real close one time, and there's this clarinet sitting up

there among the other instruments are vertical. And my grandmother and my mother got the money together to get this cl clarinet, which cost ninety dollars. It was a used clarinet in the name. When I said somebody's name Elizabeth new Jersey on each part of the clarinet, they get taken apart and I got that class. I still have it, You still have it? Yeah? WHOA and I and I

and I went into the music store. The guy who rand the music store was also he ran the pit man af they had him said, and when they had the shows, his name was Jack Arnold Press and here to take me to the back room, and h started to clown that lessons lord, learning to read notes, counting and all that cat pat in your foot and all you know, stuff like that. I did that one year with him. Then he got me a tenor saxophone too, because he said, you make more money you played clarinet

and tenner the music union again. So I got to mess around with these things. But I you to talk playing at home about six hours a day, not every day, but six hours of the school days. I stand up in the room and just I turned around in the six hours going by him, so working on scales stuff like that. Uh. Then I listened, So what was out there listening to Charlie Parker all the guys are blanky

colonious monk what they were doing. And then I got I went to the library and took took out records a classical and uh, I got one of the discal less h Montaka And also I got Stravinsky's The Writer's Springing. Yeah, yeah, Yo, that explains everything. The fact that you would shed the wrights the spring explains everything all right to our listeners out there, um real quick. Stravinsky's compositions used to cause riots. Ye, Stravinsky was the edim of his days. Stravinsky was the

bomb squad public enemy of his day. Like he would make the audience angry with clashing notes, and you know, he was the free jazz of the classical era. And when he created Writes a Spring, I mean just name all the controversial records that you can think of from Miles Is on the Corner to it takes a nation of millions of olders back to even when like you know, Radiohead sort of turned their kid back on rock with you know, with kid like all these experiments and it

made the audience angry. But you know this, that was like one of the first examples of opening a portal of creativity where suddenly you didn't follow the rules of music. You had to just you know, you followed your heart, and so you started that. The nineteen oh nine they were in Paris when it first did the writer spring publicly and it's a musician. I think it's a masto something. They weren't sitting next to another composer and when the

writer spring started, he was annoying. He said, why this stunsky started with the bassoon where up high? It's an ugly sound or something like that, and the other guy said, he quiet, let's let's see what he's doing. And every time I played Acus, I said, started with something that would irritate people. I heard that somebody got killed in that. Uh. Yes, it's it was like the first mosh pit or the

first first act of violence out of music. Uh. You know, I always bring that up when people talk about like violence in hip hop, and I'm like, you know, we learned about classical music. I think started a long time ago. Listen, let me let me ask you, and I'm skipping on a little of the place, but since you kind of

barret it up, I gotta ask you. At the time, did you feel like Miles was going through his own Stravinsky phase in terms of like where he was taking music, you know, at the time when Miles was really stretching out, and you know, I kind of feel like that phase started with the last jazz record that you guys made,

which was the neffertd album. Can you just explain one thing, what was the philosophy behind the title track Neffertdi, in which you norm Miles took a solo and you let Tony Williams and Ron Carter just run rampant with experiments like that was just unheard of at the time, Like or were you guys just like roll the tape, you know, TiO, start the tape and just start going, Like what was the philosophy behind that particular that particular session which you

guys did a seven minute jazz soul song with no solos in it and just let the rhythm section go crazy. I feel like he had something. I knew he was getting a prop I knew he was. I love it. Let's go. You see this lefort you're holding up the statue and effort. I made this when you I was fifteen years old. Wow, And I got it from the school before they got it, got a hold of it themselves. You know I made this. No, this is a a replica of the one that they have in the Bell

in the museum. Yeah. I got it from the newspaper and I toughted it even clay and plaster. And this is it from nineteen fifty one, nineteen fifty, from nineteen fifty to now. Yea, it is hitting talents. That's beautiful. Our listeners out there, mister short is we're on zoom. Of course he's holding up a white sculpture of nupported and you did this at fifteen. Oh yeah, this is on YouTube and people are going to see that sculpture. So that's good. I didn't I didn't know how heavy

the thing is heavy. That is beautiful. What caused you guys to do the repetition thing with no solos? Oh yeah, well Miles when we started playing it, Miles, so it was indicating with his body movement. He keept doing like again again again, so we go do the melody again. He kept going and then Tony Williams started doing like the drum thing behind him. Don't need any solos. I don't need the solo because when we played it in person later when Chip Korea was a pianist chick would

play it's solow here and there on it. But it was he said, he said that there's nothing can match the melody. Yeah, what we heard. I went to Sweden and got one of those awards in Sweden m hm. And they meet an arrangement of Netid, which is the baddest arrangement I've heard so far. With the orchestra there. They man, they tore it up and they didn't they didn't solo. They just did the melody and and put

clothes on it, put a costume on it. That was like like only the Swedish, the Europeans and they're artistic, you know. They were saying we understand. It was saying we understand where where you want to go and where

you could go? How about this? So with Miles, it was after Neffer td that Miles did the bitches brew m It's like he he also he also wanted to start writing music where he would get get the publishing, you know, royalties from publishing songwriting and stuff like that, and that that when he got from Betty I'm a down Home Girl. That's that was hers her lyrics and everything.

He made the disse a melody out of stuff like that place, and uh, that's when he crossed over into concert halls, from the nightclubs into concert halls and his his The funny thing he said, one of the first things he did when he crossed over was a dull Grahams the ice House or someplace in California in the dressing room. We only played like a half hour, and he got good money for it. So what it was we were used to playing two hours or an hour, and this is the first time we played thirty minutes.

And the mouse was looking at this the paycheck that he got from the frontal organization. We were all sitting around and we didn't look at it ourselves, but moles are looking at the paycheck. He said, damn, thirty minutes. He looked at us and he said, I feel like the seats. But that's when he started, you know, we talked. He went to Europe. He started getting the conscious in Europe and stuff like that, and that's when he met Sesame Tyson. But that that's that part. But before Miles died,

we all met in Switzerland. M I need to help the thing with Quincy Jones and all that stuff. Wallace running was playing Miles as parts on the trumpet and all that, and the Moles got me and Herbie together and said what he said, what would it be like if we got together again? And we said when you were talking about yeah, we said, we said, ruh ruh.

Wait a minute, you're trying to tell me, because the thing was I asked Quincy, like, how did you get Miles to even agree to even go anywhere close to that type of jazz, which you know he had he had somehow avoided, you know, for least in that traditional sense of playing jazz. And you're telling me that, Miles Davis, you and Herbie actually spoke of wanting something together again. Miles was thinking about what would we sound like after

weather Report and after Hunter and after all that. But Herbie's been to and I've been what what what kind of stuff could we uh conjure up? That's what everybody want to know. Yeah, yeah, So where he went to the thing called dud Bob with an easymobile, you know, and then he got two guys and Marcus Miller and then they got those guys together, you know, guitar players and stuff like that. But it's his body. His body kind of dictated dictated where he was going to go musically,

and he would have to rest while playing. Okay, and uh to start a whole new something. You know, it's been a lot of work, but we wasn't supposed to get together again. Really, but that thought was like like uh, lighting and lighting a match in a dark tunnel. I have a question about Miles um. Has he offered any sort of opinion on your work with Weather Report during that period. Yeah, he did say that was the only

thing happening, he wrote, He wrote in a newspaper. He said, the only thing that was happening out there was Weather Report, Oh oh wow. And he mentioned some pianos like happening as a pianist is Herbie Check, a couple of other pianists that you know, uh, band leaders and everything. That's the only thing happening. When he was going for the six years, and he'd come to see us at the Theater in New York, hm, and people didn't know who he was. He come backstage, they didn't know who he was,

and he said, let Miles in man. Really Yeah, oh wow, that's crazy of your your first round of solo work like the like the Schizophrenia album, The Night dreamer Alsie and I like, my favorite is Juju. But can you talk about what the creative process was in doing your solo work, because I would imagine that if you were in Miles's band, like I would imagine that, I know some band leaders that were frowned doing what they were

called moonlighting, like doing your own solo works. I always wanted to know how Myles felt about like you and Herbie, especially like doing your own solo work on the side at Blue Note while still being in in this this quintet, you guys were so tight as a unit. How often would you guys practice as a band during that period?

I mean as a Miles Davis band or our own band? Well, I mean just I guess I'm asking how are you able to you know, maximize creativity what Miles Davis and also subsequently do your own solo stuff on the side.

I think where Miles he welcomed that that it would shine on him, you know it would Uh we do our own publicity, so to speak, which bounced off on the Miles Davis quintet was like, Uh, we didn't have to call Miles to ask what a retainer while we were off when he's like in a hospital or something like that. We were like self kind of self sufficient in that way. A lot of people wanted to play with the Miles Davids rhythm section, you know, they wanted

to make records with the Miles Davis rhythm section. But the guys were like Furby and then then there's McCoy. You had another way. You had the top guys doing things together and it made it a little difficult for anyone to crash that to or tear it down or uh speak against it, you know is wow, they got open June even art break. He played on one of my records. My first records played the drunk. So there

was that given takes respect built in. But then later when people start counting counting the beans, that the royalties what sold and what didn't sell, and that there was an effort I think on the record company's part to um break up any kind of alliance that we formed

that they couldn't get their hands on. They were discouraging the build up of like a u'd and Duke allingas band for life, but people starting a band from Duke Ellingons band or starting their own band from count Bass Yeah Erskine Hawkins and you know all that they were together almost like a life sentence. You know, they're the only ones who graduated in a sense, would be like if you went into movies like Tap Dancers or the Vocalist. Yeah, have you seen that Gers documentary? No? Yes, yes, but

she became the band leader. M Yeah. I was just going to ask you because I've seen you in a lot recently and especially Lee Morgan and Miles, and I was wondering, as an architect, how do you feel in this moment of documenting all its history and do you feel like they're getting it right? They're they're doing part and parcel put it that way. Okay, what would you like? There's another one coming out on myself a second, your second documentary about about you. Right, it's a second. No,

this is no, this is a full one. Okay, come out soon and this is uh I can say what is the title rep thus far? The title is uh Wayne Shorter, zero Gravity. I'd be remiss if I didn't speak of your your work with the Jazz Messengers. I just want to know in general, is the Jazz Messengers like your first actual like professional big gig, just in terms of you being with with the unit Yeah, yeah, messengers. How do I know you're from You were from Newark? I know that. You know, America was in such a

chaotic sort of place, especially for black people. What was it like as as a person that was able to leave America and start touring the world and going overseas and all those things to see what effect did that have on you? Well? Actually I was working with Maynard Ferginson's band, you know, Maynard focused in the Big Band about three weeks and one time we were working at Birdland and the waiter said, there's a telephone call from

Wayne Alive Blake. He's on the phone, said. Lee Morgan had come to New York, New Jersey and played a session with John Coltrane, and as on midnight, the Lee called my house. He heard about me. He called my house for I'd like to go and play with them in the last number, still playing a night in Tunisia at a nightclub in New York, and I went, got my stuff together and played on the Last Number with

Lee Morgan and John Coltrane. Yeah, there was a jam session and Lee had been going around to the jam sessions listening to people, and we worked in New York with Dizzy get Leslie's big band with the drummer Charlie Person from Nook. You know, I was at the place called sugar Hill, by the way, that's the place I saw Billie Holiday before I went in the army. He was at sugar Hill and Nook too much, right, everybody? Yeah,

the one this month. They was all in there. And anyway, when I got out of the army, that's when Lee called me and said, I'm playing with John Coltrane and Nook at midnight. We're gonna play one more number. Can you come? I heard about you, so I went and played. Then when I got with men Our Fergus, this band, we were playing in Canada at a race track, the Canadian Exposition we call it, and doing the break I'm a Jamal and Sarah Van. They were doing a break head.

Comes Lee Morgan running across the red the race track. He came up to me. I'm sitting here in the audience. Yeah, you want to be with the Messengers. You want to be with the Messengers. I said, yeah, to come with me and I went to a tenth. That's all right, Blake, you said, man and I said, he said, Lee Morgan is the Apple of my eye and I trust what he said. Kid never heard me really, he said, you want to be in my band. So he called Birdman,

who was still Wayne with Men of Ferguson band. He called Birdman and told Man of Ferguson the Wayne is a fighter pilot. He's not a he doesn't work with bombers like Big Man fighter pilot. So the man, I said, he can find somebody to take his place out. Don't go, said kay, And I found somebody real good cat too. And then I flew from there to French Lick, Indiana, be accessible with the Messengers, Miles Davis, all of them, Cannibal, they're all that. And I'm That was the start of

my my gig with the Jazz Messengers. And here's one of the big piece of advice that I got. We got from Mark Blakey when we went to Europe. Our shit. Don't try to razzle dazzle and then and uh and uh you know people and how much you know about jazz and bebop and how much you know don't try to show off, yeah, show off and everything that it's just the only thing they're gonna remember. It's your behavior. He said, Okay, your behavior found cool. Me and Lea

we were cool and everything. So the behavior it's like a guide for us wherever we went to just be cool, play and play what you play. He was the coolest dressers to everything, you know. And uh so I was looking with them for five years, five years with them, jazz messenges and uh just be cool, don't pack your foot, don't pack your foot with at Lee Morgan, documentaries everything. Nah, that was great. One question I have for you, mister Shorter,

was about one of my favorite saxophonists, cannon Ball Adderlie. Yeah, um, you talk about just your work with him and like you guys, relationship, what was What was he like? So cannon Ball was he was cool. He was very kind of not not jovial, but he liked to have a good time. He liked to he liked to have the bounce in his music. Did it didn't It didn't, did did it? You know? And uh yeah he had a nice uh combination with Miles and all them, and I didn't.

I didn't. There was the combination of J. J. Johnson Sonny said and Miles too. Then I was real short. I did these people like Cannonball JJJ? I played on J G. Johnson's last record, Cannonball. I saw him last at the Blue Note in the lower part of h New York near the Holland Tunnel, and uh, him and his brother Nat we had conversations and something about life

and stuff. But that thing about being a school teacher, that that was very evident in his uh mannerism when he talked about music and stuff like that, he was still attached to being a teacher. And Florida. I know, you're talking to the schools in Florida something like that. And but but then there's there's the other ones, this one and they had, uh, there's there's some outo saxophone players. Then my my brother was crazy about one name, Ernie Henry.

And he said there was Danny Quebec who did the opening of Around Men like do do do do? Do? Do? We? Did you know that? I que back to nephew. Uh. The names of people that had sound World they are Gray World, Al Gray whatever and and it's a Ward Gray and uh, my man, just who did the realm And like we sitting standing around the jukebox, Waldoor Gray had that that sound this sound up. A lot of the guys wanted that, said guests got that sound and

Wardou Gray and Uh the President. Let's say you had a discussion with Lesser Young in a nightclub up in Canada and he on his night off or doing a break. I was looking for something to drink in the club when I'm doing a break. He took me down into the cell of the wine cellar. He said, let's go downstairs and get some real cornyac and we just talked. I didn't tell him I was in the army. I didn't tell him I was a musician. But he we

talked a little bit. The first and last time I saw Lesser Young in person the club on Young Street and uh and Toronto, Canada. Yeah that that club was something so. But other than that, these conversations were Billy Epstein, who says something backstage, he's telling us something. Art is introducing us to these guys, and Lewis Armstrong and then Lionel Hampton and we're shaking hands with uh Man and the Lionel said, right, he to call everybody Gates, Hey, Gates,

write something for my band. Gates, write something up the Gates nis what he heard me and to all of these people, Man, I'm telling you is Duke Ellington. We were not shaking hands with these people and moving them through and it was a uh, what's his name, Dad day st Q, let's go ahead. Wait, I don't know that time, Jameron, Tad, Jameron and okay, the names man. And there's the ladies too. Oh just shut up. Where

there's some ladies. The Sweethearts of Rhythm, Yes, yeah, the Sweethearts, Yes, yes, yeah, and something about the clouds and knew that's original. It was just clouds of Joy or something like that, The Sweethearts of Rhythm. And there was Slyde Hampton the Slide. Hampton's sister glad It's Hampton played trump. She played like Hilly Joe Jones and this Glory of Bell, who was married to George Coleman. Gloria Bell played the bass. I'm having a jams giving some homework. You are giving all

these listeners some homework. I love it. References. Yes, yes, she had a place seven harm called Connie's when we did jam sessions at Connie's, and right across street was with uh Smalls Paradise. Yes, we go back then played to the jam session. There's Nancy Wilson sitting in the audience. She was the secretary to uh uh Dane Carroll's husband at the time. Wow kid of stuff standing stuff was going on and uh and the guy that Denzel Washington

played as the gangster, the guy who ran. Yeah, he'd be sitting under the bar checking out who's coming is going because they had the double park Eldorados outside and some people came inside, some of these high rollers. They would come inside and want to hear Miles played one note and as Myles looked fast and the guy put down the big dollars hundred dollars Joe and said that did it. I came. I came to hear the mouth and I heard him and then me this documentary is

gonna be good. You need to script too, We need everything. This is kind of a two parter, but when we come back for part two, I definitely want to get into um your work on your opera with you know, the great Esperanza Spalding and Dick Ingenia project. And so I thank you for this education. We're gonna comment with a part two of course Supreme with a great Wayne Shorter and we hope you guys come and join us. Okay, whatchlap.

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