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But this is Unpaid Bill from Quest Love Supreme. In celebration of Women's History Month, we are highlighting conversations new and alal with some legendary women. Back in July twenty twenty one, we interviewed one of the most important rock bands in the last thirty years, also being credited as pioneers in the riot girl movement. I asked Kerry and Karen about having a band without a base player, which always blew me away. Listen back as sleeper Kenny talk about health, creativity and art.
Enjoy this episode, Ladies and gentlemen.
I don't have the name of my show. Okay, guys, Free Style Supree Right, matter of fact, let's just let this be the intro summer of Summer Summer. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Questlove and you're listening to another episode of Quest Love Supreme featuring Unpaid Bill, Tony winner of Freestyle Love Supreme. By the way, yes, we have also Fontigoelo with us what's up? Brother? What Up? What Up? What up? What's that? And Sugar Steve Hi. Everybody, Yeah, how you doing?
This is gonna be a very quiet episode because Lai is not with us right now, but she's with us. A very quiet episode. We're very honored to have our guest today. Our guest first emerged from Olympia, Washington via nineteen ninety four. Well, I would like to say that Northwest, because I don't know if it's Portland or Olympia, Washington. But I will say that I became aware of them because of everyone knows that, of my fan worship of music critics, and it's like my my, my music hero.
Robert Christigau, formerly of the of the Village Voice, he called them one of the most important rock band in the last thirty years, and they've been rightfully credited as the pioneers and the riot girl movement. Between their self titled debut and ninety four and their seventh album, The Wood in two thousand and five, they took a nine year hiatus, which I'd never heard of hiatus that long
unless you're from Richmond, Virginia. Returning say sorry, no shame right, that's a real hiatus, returning with twenty fourteen No Cities to Love following another five year break with these, Saint Vincent produced The Center Won't Hold by the way, shout out to any band that uses any Chinwana Chevy or William Yeats references in their album titles. If the Roots were to make Things Fall Apart Part two, I would
have actually called it The Center Won't Hold. Thankfully, the gap between their latest album, which is called The Path Wellness, was only two years. And gentlemen, please welcome to Questlove Supreme leader Kenny, Thank you ladies for joining us.
Yes for having us, Thanks for having us.
How are you?
We're good? We're good, Yeah, We're we yeah.
We would Just to answer your question from the intro, I think it was I think the Northwest is a good enough thing to say because Olympia Portland. Yeah, they're far apart, but we were kind of living in both places at once, so that counts.
You know. What is weird In doing research, I've realized I didn't realize how much of the actions of the Northwest and the creative epicenter of the Northwest really informed the blueprint of my career, because you know, in choosing Geffen as a label, of course, Nirvana was like part of that decision making even us having to move to Europe.
Inavertent Kirk is sort of responsible for that. But you know, we spent a lot of time, like Portland's my all time favorite city on Earth, and just the time period that we spent performing and gigging between the two states between like ninety four to ninety nine, well really on, but there was a period between like ninety four and ninety nine in which like we did a lot of concentrated touring between the two areas and sort of having gotten to know like a lot of people that were
sort of legends on the scene, Like I didn't get to know YouTube, but like when I first got there, sort of like Kathleen was kind of our guide, like and you know, we really didn't know about the riot Girl movement and anything like that, but she was like really an interesting character that sort of like took a liking to us and kind of shows us a rope. And so I didn't realize like how much the north the Northwest sort of played in our decision. I actually
wanted to start by asking. So during that period it in which like the entire music press was like salivating almost fetishizing like what's coming, Like what's what's the magic in the Northwest or whatnot? Like how did how does that play into how you can even find a space to be creative and in forming a band and getting space when like every critic is looking for the next like who's coming out in sub pop or these labels? Like what was it like then?
Yeah, yeah, no, I think it was.
I think it was pretty overwhelming, like at the time, because there was such high level journalists who would like come to a Riot Girl meeting or show up at a Riot Girl show. And you know, we were we were kids at the time, Like we were writing this like confessional poetry and this, you know, this work that was like very personal and I don't think we realized how intense that spotlight was, but when we did, I think it was, you know, it felt like it was almost radioactive at times.
Yeah, and we actually left, like when Slater Kinney formed, which was yeah, like nineteen ninety four. We were still in other bands, but we wanted we started playing music together, and you know, Olympia and that scene was so insular, and I mean, you know, when you're coming out of a small scene, there's it's like a blessing and a curse.
You have all this support, there's community, but then there's also this way where you feel like everyone already knows you, everyone already kind of has these expectations of you, and you can't necessarily step out of that or redefine who you want to be. And so we actually went all the way to Australia, like we actually created space and distance in order to be able to imagine ourselves as something else, imagine ourselves outside.
The glare of some of that, you know, journalistic scrutiny. And I think you have to do that.
You either, if you don't have the ability to physically leave, you have to create an imagined space for yourself.
I was wondering if that was a typo because I was like, wait a minute, Melbourne, Australia to create your first record, Like how does that happen? But I also I also wanted to know because it's weird because I fell into you guys. Kind of ask backwards and I'll be fully transparent. It's like I know everything about you guys, and I know nothing about you guys, only because it's kind of weird to say that fell and ask backwards because usually when a guest comes on the show, like
I know everything about them but their DNA. And so in my particular case, like if people come up to me in the airport, they you know, refer to me as like, oh, that's Jimmy Fallon's drummer, or like, oh, you're the guy on your Gaba gabba, And you know, sometimes my ego, like it doesn't hurt now, but like in the beginning, like my ego would get like really deflated and I would just you know, I feel like that was sort of like asking Michael Jordan if he's
the guy Haines commercial. So I would say that you were always a name that was I was fully aware
of up until the creation of Portlandia. Like I only knew and studied this s leader model simply because like your names were always constantly on the top of every like of critics I worship, and like your metacritic numbers were super high, you know, Krista Galas putting you on the top of the pass and job stuff, and like again like I'm gonna critic obsessive, like putting these shits on my wall, studying these things, figuring out the metrics and all that stuff, and you know, but it took
reading your Hunger book Carrier for me to really like, all right, I'm gonna dive into this and actually like I'm gonna immerse myself and understand their art. And the thing was because I fell into you first with humor, and then I went back to the self title I was in ninety five, I was like, oh wait a minute, huh.
I was like YO said, I wasn't ready. But then I really that you guys have have really like I feel like we almost took a similar journey in terms of you know, where you started the internet meme, how it started, where it's and where where you are now. It's it's been quite a journey. How are you? How are you as far as the position of where you're perceived as like this really influential group that is influential to other musicians but like not mainstream. Like how does that feel?
You know? I think like you're saying you've like been through a journey, and I feel like I feel like with you know, with getting older and with kind of having that realization the music is a journey, you know, and that art is a journey, and humor and all
of it can be part of it. I think that I feel really grateful of where we're at in a way because it's true we might have like less commercial success and a lot of other like bands that we've sort of come up with, but we have a lot of like artistic freedom, you know that I feel like we are still on this journey that is like we're building on it, like with producing our last, our most recent record ourselves and trying out different things and hiring
this whole new band of musicians. Like I'm I feel really lucky in that way of like I feel very much like we are on this journey of like learning and becoming more you know, able to make art and make music.
I was going to ask why it took so long for you guys to finally produce your records and what took so long to come to this place where you know what is in your head and what you want to execute Or is it just important sometimes to have a fresh set of ears that can sort of, you know, is not afraid to challenge you or make you find, you know, an alternative way to get your ideas out.
Yeah, I think it's been nice to have an arbiter and you know, I mean, you know, from being in a band, it's different than being a solo artist, so you're already contending with multiple personalities and sometimes you need that peacekeeper and so that you're not sort of turning
on each other with ideas. You know, someone that can just step in and be like how about this, and you know, and then it almost gives you as a group something to like cohere around you're like, well, actually we think you know it just it forms these like
in group dynamics. So I think we've always relied on I mean, I would say our early records were for all intents and purposes co produced by us, you know, as you know, aside from like Dave Fridman on The Woods or The Sky, Roger Mutino on the Hot Rock. It was very hands off approach from our producers. You know, they often wanted to just kind of capture the essence, but it was just nice to have another voice there, I guess.
So yeah, that's why since.
The constant presence on you know, a majority of your records was so John Goodmanson, who you know I'm familiar with well, with his Wu Tang credit. I mean, he's worked with The Risk a few times. Yep, done a whole bunch of other albums. I always wanted to know, like, was it a thing where if you felt that you could express an idea to your bandmates that you'd sort of expressed it to him and then he could sort of translate it better so that feelings weren't rattled or whatnot.
Or I don't feel like we ever circumvented each other. I think it was just having a sounding board and we trusted him. Like you said, like he's worked with really a broad range of artists.
He's great.
You know, we never traditionally had a bass player, so he's great with drums, he's great with low end like he's Yeah, it was I think it was almost like he was part cheerleader, part kind of deciding vote. But we never like said, hey, John, can you tell Korin that I'd rather do this?
So you're not the roots? Okay, I get it, I get it. Okay. Usually I start the show off. I'm very interested in the journey that gets you there. This's the first time I'm really talking to Corinth, so I'll ask you what I mainly ask our guest on the show. Can you tell me your first musical memory? Oh my god, did I say it like Nard War? I love it. Yeah, I know these guys are like you never talk like this, Meir, what are you doing okay?
Yeah.
I So my dad is like a hobby musician and he did like folk music in the sixties. He actually opened a gig for like Pete Seeger once was like his claimed to fame and he went on and you know, and and and eventually became like a college professor. But he would when I was born, he would like play music. And my first memory is like singing with him. So he would, you know, teach me what he guthrie folks songs and you know, all kind of like seventies stuff. So that's my first memory.
Where were you born?
I was actually born.
In Pennsylvania at State College when my dad was getting his PhD. There.
Oh you're from Pa. Yeah, okay, so am I okay? Cool? Uh? Can you tell me the first album that you purchased, Oh my god, which is different from like an album in your house that's already there, Like the first album that you purchased with your own money put your moment on, yeah, or stole in this group, you could have stolen it.
There was like this, uh, this album with Pat Benattar where she's wearing a straight jacket.
The second album not that you did in the night. The second the one within Me with your best shotow on it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the big album. Yeah, I was like I this for whatever reason, I was like I need this, Okay, I put down hard money for that album, We'll See.
Your north Star. When you were growing up, like what what voices did you gravitate towards?
Definitely Pat Benatar, you know, like this is a big, very muscular, you know, intense voice. Great singer for sure. And yeah, I mean I love Dolly Parton. I loved Aretha Franklin, you know, like the big voice with a big like range was always like so influential.
I think, all right, carry I'll go to you. Could you tell us what your first musical memory was?
Yeah, I think mine is probably a little less cool than Coorn. Sorry, I have this young dog. It's like suddenly decided this was this is his witching hour. And my parents did not have great taste in music. They always liked the albums like there's the Eagles, who I'm not a big fan of. But my dad also had
all their solo albums too. Okay, all right, definitely it was my parents had a party, like not a party, but like a hangout, and they were they had the Long Run by the Eagles on and I needed to go No, no, I like the Eagles, I like this, I like that album. But I'm just saying like, so
I was I needed to go to bed. My parents were like, time for you to go to bed, and I was like, I would first like to perform Life in the Fast Lane for you all, and which is a song about like driving on the highway, like coke down of your head, and.
So it does.
And I didn't know it was about that. I just thought it was about it was a cool song about driving. So I just sang along to the song and my parents and their friends just humored me, and then I went to bed. That's the first thing I remember musically.
That's your first musical memory. Can you tell me the first album that you purchased with your own money?
Yes, it was Thriller Michael Jackson.
Yes, I mean, you know, it was the biggest album in the world and everyone had to have it, and I listened to it a million times.
I see.
That was the first album I ever owned, too. That was the first my own personal album that I own myself.
See to make you feel better, Carrie, Although I would love to say something really cool I've already been outed in the press. The world knows that, Like Neil Sadako was the first forty five.
So I got you within the rain of jam though, yeah, but mine was more bad blood, like it's.
Sorry, yeah, you know, so you know, I'm not that cool. We need either, Carrie, so you're cool. At what point for the both of you, are you realizing that you have a voice or that a music is something that you're interested in pursuing, not just something that casually that just happens, you know, in your household.
I think for me, I I moved to Olympia to go to college.
I went to like, you know, the Evergreen State College when all of.
The stuff was happening, and I have to credit Bikini Kill and Brat Mobile playing a show, and I was just I just got to be like right up close, like right there when they were doing their thing, and I was like, I want to do that. I'm going to start a band, and I in my head I started a band Like that night. I was just like I'm in I'm doing it too, okay, you know, because I saw.
Them do it.
They were my age and they were they were just starting out, and so it just like opened the door.
He explained to me the whole idea of what Rygirl represents. And is that a title that was invented by the proprietors or again, was it some guy from Spin magazine sort of searching for the next big thing and then said, okay, this is right girl with a bunch of rs in it.
No, it was.
It was actually like a genuine movement, you know. It was the title was you know, started by a young woman in DC who was like, we need to start an actual movement for women in the independent music scene that that highlights women's roles and supports women and talks about safe spaces for women. And there were meetings. You could go to a meeting you could talk about all these things. You could talk about, you know, being in a bad relationship, sexual assault, like all of the kind of like.
Taboo stuff at the time.
At that time, at the time, there just wasn't another space for that stuff to come out and happen.
So it was it was very real.
It was very.
Taboo at the time.
And you know, Kathleen Hannah was she was, you know, very much like a cultural leader, right, she was. She was like our poet because she was writing and the stuff that she was incredible poet, incredible.
Writer and performer, you know, and very confrontational.
But she was saying all the stuff that we were all like so afraid to say ourselves.
Okay, So the first time I met Kathleen Hannah, I didn't know I was mean, Like I didn't know anything about rygir whatever. Like the Roots are just doing a show somewhere up in Seattle. I forget the spot in Seattle that we were playing. I know it was across the sheet from the spot where they throw a fish.
Oh yeah, the showbox.
Yeah, we were at the showbox. Yeah, I'll say that. Yeah, I met. Matter of fact, the first three times I've met or seeing Kathleen, she was like cursing someone out, Like it was always like, yeah, and my manager, Rich was they those two were like really good friends. So he's sort of my manager who passed away. Him and her really became good friends. And you know, he just liked, that makes all the sense.
Oh my god, you see it down here and you describe, Oh my god, that makes yeah, Oh that's how I know this.
Shit, Like my shit is all trickle down economics from Rich and him, him and Kathleen were like talking whatever, Like I mean, but she was just I've never seen that person, so just wild and unhinged and just told what the fuck she felt and all that. Like I was just like, yoh, this is unheard of whatever. So
that that was like my introduction to her. She was cool and very nice to us, but like in a second, she will she'll bring the ruckus and I've just never seen that shit, so you know, and I don't really be like, oh intense or whatever, but that's what it was like for me meeting her. So could you tell me what the environment was, at least at the time in the Northwest that really prompted this movement to really find its legs.
Yeah, I mean, the you know, the Northwest was this hotbed of like independent music. So there was all of this like criticism of mainstream music that was you know, that wasn't genuine, It wasn't you know, real art and everything. And this music scene was about you know, like real people telling their stories and making music available to everyone.
So you know, five dollars shows and all that.
But it was also this kind of like slam dancing, rather violent culture at every show, and so there was just not a lot of space for women to feel like, am I going to be safe going to this show? Am I going to feel like I you know, my voice is heard? And the roles for women were still like oh, yeah, you know, my boyfriend's in that band and right, and and I just like went for yeah,
a foil. And so when you had a personality like Kathleen who was like protagonist, right, so she was like center stage at all times, it was like an arrow like shot through our hearts. It was like, I I want to be like that. Like I'm I was a shy, awkward, kind of academic type kid. But I saw someone just like take control of the stage be like I have a story to tell and everyone in this room is going to listen, And that just opened the door.
It kind of took feminism and you know, even though they're definitely you know, very fair critiques of Riot Girl, like just like other early iterations of feminism, it lacked intersectionality, and you know, it was largely white women, although there was tons of women of color there as well, But it definitely took feminism out of an academic context and
gave it a very like punk, very colloquial vernacular. It was like here was you know, like a world of punk had just come out of like a hard core phase, especially on the West Coast, which was super violent. So all of a sudden, it was like, what if we took this movement, these ideas that are largely like in you know, college textbooks, and just put it over three courts and screamed it?
And that was very liberating.
I think to think that if you had a message, it didn't necessarily need to be couched in a book, you know, that it could be couched in a scream or a yelp. And I think that just freed up a lot of people to express themselves. I mean the same way so much music just becomes like a source of liberation for people, where it's like I have something to say, and now I can say it over this song instead.
Of you know, writing out to say it my way exactly.
So what's the point where you two meet each other and sort of talk in terms of starting a group in and starting the beginning of leader.
Kidney, that was yeah, I was ninety four. I was already living in Olympia to go to college as as well. Koran was I think you were in your senior year, and we were both in other bands. Koran was in a much.
More like.
Prototypical or archetypal, right girl band called Heavens to Betsy, and I was in a band called Excuse seventeen.
You know that was that like day those days.
We were in that group too, correct.
Kathleen, No, she was in neither.
She was in but she was in other bands. I didn't know if.
Everyone was in so many bands, right, Okay, yeah, And so we just saw this kindred spirit and each other, like you know, Koran was the only her band was two people, Koran on guitar and a drummer. And then I was in a band with a similar setup to Slater Kinney what Slater Keny would be two guitars and drums, and we just we thought, I know, I heard Korn sing and I was like, I would love to be
writing songs with this person. And she heard me play guitar and had the same feeling, and so we started playing kind of as a side project, and then pretty quickly that became what we wanted to do. It was just a very innate chemistry.
Why was there always no bass players? I'm just just because he didn't want them.
It was.
It was definitely like a thing in the northwest of like, you know, how can we be different and not not like, you know, sort of the archetype rock band.
Yeah, and neither of us played I think it just was played bass and we just wanted to be this like kind of tight unit. I think there's sometimes when you're when something is perceived as a lack, it actually can be a strength through like how can we find a way into these songs without the traditional instrumentation, you know, it kind of forces you to write differently. We detuned to see sharp, so Korin was singing in this really high register and you know, trying to get low end
sound out of for a guitar. And yeah, I think we used it to our advantage. Although now in the past couple of years. You know, obviously we like bass. Early on though people always ask us like, do you guys not like bass? I'm like, no, ninety nine point nine percent of all music we listened to has bass.
Okay, how long have you been playing guitar? Carrie?
I started when I was fifteen, so it has been what is that thirty years?
Ok?
Yeah?
Yeah, Korin, how long have you been playing guitar.
It is, it's like thirty years because I started when I was like eighteen, So.
Okay, well resisting the temptation and making a spinal tap joke and I know that. And Janet joined the band three albums later. But was it always the plan to sort of have various musicians because I noticed that what determines what your sound is probably also depends on the musicians that are playing with you as well. So your first drummer, Laura McFarlane, how do musicians come in the
group and how do they leave? Like is it just a one and done thing or you guys are just taking this a little more serious than the other.
Or no, I mean definitely just to say about Janet, and she's an integral part of the band. I mean I wrote about it in my book. When she joined, you know.
We were like, yeah, that's when you jelled.
Yeah, we were like, this is this is great?
I would I'm I am sure as people assess us, you know, ten fifteen years from now or you know, they're like that will be the classic period of the band, So you know they were never throw away.
Being the rock and Hall of Fame, I get it.
Yeah, she's a great drummer so that Korn can talk about Laura because yeah, she had brought her own avant guarde style for sure.
Yeah. I mean I think a lot of it is like a little bit happenstance on our part, Like you know, we went we did go to Australia thinking like, hey, let's play music, you know, and there was there was like this international underground music community for real, And we wrote her a letter, We wrote, like the record label a letter and she wrote back like yeah.
Let's play music.
And that's just how it happened, and you know, and then eventually it was like, well she did come over and we played music here, and then she was like I kind of need to go back to Australia.
We're like, yeah, oh, okay, now that you're in the game of being on an indie label, can you just walk us through the process of how do you manage to survive and be creative at the same time, Like for those first few albums, did you still have to have day jobs or was it like okay, a, you know, we can sort of survive off of our club gigs and what units that we're selling.
I mean, I think there's there was definitely some back and forth, you know, like there were still temp jobs.
I think even after dig Me Out, I think that we kind of put this.
Like idea about being creative and being control of the creative part of things as something that was really important to us. So we were always willing to like do whatever other jobs needed to be done, I think, just to like make money or whatever.
I mean, we weren't.
We weren't not making money from touring, and we were always wanting to figure that out and make it better. We were always like ambitious about that. It just it took us a while to get there.
But what at what point are you absolutely full time where ban I can pay my bills, I could put cheese or my whopper and not break the bank, like.
Probably dig me Out, I would say, So that's ninety seven.
I mean, let's also be clear. I was living in Olympia.
I think my rent was three ninety five a month, so that doesn't take that much. You know, you can you can play a couple of shows even as a tiny band and make you know. So we were living in small towns in like you know, sharehouses and stuff. But dig Me Out, I mean one thing at the time on indie labels was these profit profit shares, which you know, you just it was a split, and people
actually bought records. So even though these these records weren't going gold or platinum, you know, when dig me out sells you know, seventy five thousand copies or one hundred thousand copies and you have, you know, getting fifty percent of profit share, like at the time when you're in your early twenties, that's that's definitely enough to live off of, even if you're splitting it three ways.
So by the time that you guys are out, I also know that every major label was looking up and down the aisles for the next big thing or whatever I mean. So at no point, like you know, I know you guys started off from Chainsaw and then the lovely titled Kill All rock Stars. First of all, with those labels, is that are there actual are these actual labels? Are just like okay, well, what are we going to
call the label this time? Or like is that your label and you guys have a distribution system or is Kill All rock Stars like an actual label like sub Pop is, And you know.
Yeah, no, Kill rock Stars is definitely an actual label, And and that point I think was pretty critical for us because after the first record came out on Chainsaw, which was a label run by fellow musicians, but they were like still touring that it was Jody and Donna from Team Drash, So that was, you know, problematic. We did have a time when we were corded by major labels before Digging Me Out, and we considered it. You know, we considered, we argued about it, we thought about it like crazy.
So I'm going to ask you a question, okay, because I knew this was a parallel story with hip hop and with with with this movement, how at what point are you able to really relax and really not live in fear of the the idea of quote unquote selling out, you know, that that shadow following you, like the perception of how we're Because the thing is is that knowing what I know now and again because I worked backwards, I'm like, yo, like you know, and you can even
tell them that like with the videos that you're doing now and all that stuff, like the humor element and all those things, that you're really showing your personalities. Whereas once I went back to the beginning and realized, like oh, oh, okay, it started off here and then you guys slowly blossomed into this thing. I can imagine that the perception of who you guys were as a group or trying to present also probably played, you know, decisions made by the band.
And I always wanted to know, like how the perception of being seen as sellouts or being too successful? Should we do this commercial or should we signed to this label, this major label, like will we be the same? Like how important is that perception playing in the band at that period? And you're at least for the first three or four.
Records, it was huge.
I mean, I mean you were around during that time too. I mean that it just was such a different beast. You know, this idea that somehow, you know, a major was going to you know, rob you of your artistic credibility, that by aligning yourself with anything that was corporated or commercial, you know, signified you know, something that was anti art uh, you know.
And there were a lot of arguments.
Treaties, you know, books, zines, you know, and very lively polemic and a lot of real anger, I think from people that never really took into consideration how anyone grew up in terms of you know, if they had money and that, you know, like it just never. It was not a very nuanced conversation, but it was very real because you cared about your friends and to sort of admit, you know, I want something more than I can get. This route was really tricky, so we just we really
didn't consider it. And I was probably the most hard line at the time. I was like the youngest, I was the baby in the band, and I think Korn was probably you probably were the most interesting, am I right?
No, Steel Magnolia is the termine years.
I was always my eyes were always on the.
Business route more than anyone else.
Yeah, she's good about that. But you know, there were also these horror stories.
You know, you would for every band that had a decent relationship with their A and R person, there was someone that had signed to a major and been dropped, you know, like a band like Spoon or like or even coming from the Northwest, you see Nirvana, you see this this guy that was tort supposedly, you know, tortured by the fact that you know, he no longer felt connected to who he was and his fans.
So there were all these cautionary tales.
So can I ask and you know, maybe you can give me better insight because I never knew what happened at the end of it is do you think this is precisely the reason why Helmet didn't blow up, like the perception of because the thing is from an outsider. And again, my outsider status was more studied the stats, learn the names, but I never got I never got
into the music. So as far as I knew, I knew there was a band that every label was salivating over and they gave them a seventh figure deal and it was Helmet, and they were going to be the next big thing, and then I didn't hear shit from them. And what's really weird was that when my band got approached by Geff and we were going to go to a whole nother label, we were ready to sign, and when Geffen came along, we were like, Okay, let's let's
pull a Helmet and see what happens. And we called their bluff and called this big ass Argantua number and they took it, and then it's like, oh shit. But the difference is is like we never felt like, oh, we're selling out because we're taking a seven figure deal. It was like more like we made it out of poverty like that sort of thing. So you know, people were like, ah, y'all made it. That was the perception
of it. But I always wanted to know, with Helmet making, you know, this this seventh figure deal and they're going to be the next Nirvana, Like, did that effect their fan base and the support from the Northwest from doing such a lofty move as in grabbing the money.
In your opinion, I think it could be.
I think you could make an argument that people were turned.
Off by it, Okay, I see, I.
Don't know. I don't know I could I just at the time, I think people.
Talked about it, and you know, and and there was like an element of people kind of turning up their noses, you know.
Okay, so yeah, yeah, But I also think there was such a it was such a time of anti pop, you know, anti sheen, and things were so compartmentalized genre wise, so it was like, you know, a band like Helmet or jaw Box, who also you know, was a DC band that went signed to a major. You know, these were these bands that were sort of admired for like their roughness, you know, Helmet, with their cool like corrosive sounding guitars, and like this grit and.
Then they get a bun to money. And at the time, of course.
They're gonna go they're gonna work with a better producer, they're going to work in a better studio, they're probably gonna have nicer like equipment. And that's like, at the time, was anathema to what people wanted to hear. Now people might be like, oh, that's that's cool, like you know, they're borrowing, you know, from other styles of music, or you know, it has a little bit more of a sparkle to it. But at the time that was like, oh,
there we go. We have evidence that that and and that just went't happen today.
Well, I do have a theory about it's less about that. I get worried when people start upgrading, you know, probably in the hip hop sense of that, you know, the Riza.
The reason why like hip hop fans hang on so tightly to those very first six Wu Tang records is because you know they were made the lower the folklore of Wu Tang, the fact that he created this in his projects in Stapleton projects in Staten Island, and it was a very dirty, dusty sound, and you know that it got flooded out, and then of course you know, the Wu Tang blew up, and then he upgraded, and then they made their second album like in Los Angeles,
living in Beverly Hills, and the sound changed. It's too clean. Same thing for Prince Prince making his stuff in his bedroom. It's like the most perfect stuff in the world. Like, I love that sound. But the second he upgraded and got Paisley Park or whatever, and then the sound just, you know, it sounded more vagacy to me and not like raw, and so I get worried when people upgrade, so which I guess that's probably the same perception that
the sound changes or whatnot. So by the time you guys get past Me Out and like get to like the hot rock or whatever. I mean, at what point are you guys even thinking of like changing your sound or trying new ideas. And how comfortable were you into making that pivot from where you were when you first started the band.
I feel like.
We always I think I think that was the moment that was exactly the moment that we made our first pivot, that it just there was no way to repeat dig Me Out like it had just come from such a place of forcefulness that there's just no way to relax to that record, Like it just starts on ten and ends on ten and it just has this you know, this catharsis and it's just like, yeah, it's a long kind of scream with some you know, different iterations. And with the Hot Rock, we just knew we couldn't repeat
dig Me Out. We just knew like this, we can't be part two. So I think we just created like this much more introspective of landscape. And I think that set us up correctly because people could not you know, at the time, like you're saying, like critics were much more there was. It was more centralized in terms of like the power of like a critic, so that we just didn't want them to say, like it's dig Me Out, but not as good or not as intense, and so we made the Hot Rock.
I will also say that I have an envy for artists that have the ability to really get their point out and under like two minutes. Like again, if I'm given the space to create like a gargantuan, you know, twelve minute art song, like I'm that guy, But if you only give me two minutes to do something, and I can't and the fact that, especially like your debut album, like half the songs are like under you know, it's like average length is like two minutes and ten seconds
or whatever. I mean. Is anyone teaching you about song structure? Are you guys like purposely taken from like the Ramones handbook or it's just like, Okay, the average punk song has to be under this length to get so much information out like lyrically and all that content wise, and under such a short period of time, Like that's that's
almost a gift. But did it come from a place where you guys purposely wanted to structure it like that or you know, or is it that as you got further along in the recording process, then you guys are realizing that like, oh well, there's space for a bridge here, or maybe a guitar solo there, or like stretch out the songs make them longer. But you know, like for your first two albums, like the length of both of them were definitely under a half hour. I think your
first album is at least twenty minutes. So just talk about like the at least the songwriting process of how you guys in the beginning were writing songs as opposed to really getting in the rhythm of presenting these songs's the what's your work mode when you're creating songs.
I think that so much of it was.
Instinctual and jamming and and honestly, at the beginning, there wasn't a lot of even dialogue about like how can we make this song better? It was just like, you know, Carrie would start playing something. She'd play a riff and I'd be like, keep playing that, you know, and and start singing a vocal over it.
You know.
She's so much more of like a like a like a melody writer with guitar, and I was like, I like, go off of my vocal when I'm writing, Like, that's where the music comes from for me for the most part, and I'm just trying to get I'm trying to start a story and get a melody that is.
Compelling and follow it down.
And so there wasn't a lot of That's why I think the songs are so short is because they're they are almost like poems.
When they worked well, I thought.
Do you start with the lyrics or or music first? Like what's your comfort zone? When when a song comes to you.
It's it's the it's the vocals, it's the melody, just gibberish usually at the.
Beginning, yeah, of course, and then it's always.
Just going back and back and making them try and make the lyrics better and better, you know.
Usually.
I do want to know what was the decision on the Hot Rock Also, that's the one album that that John didn't produce with you guys, what was the decision to not work with him? I forget who produced the Hot Rock record, But.
Yeah, it was this guy, Roger Mutino, who had worked with a band from Hoboken, Yola Tango. Okay, yeah, and and Yola Tango. We're definitely having a moment at the time that they were people who we really admired, and you know, we were like, who produced the last Yelatango record? And for us, you know, again it was were trying
to get outside of our comfort zone. And John had gone to the same college as all of us, and you know, he had worked with Bikini Kill and he you know, it was just like, what if we brought in someone from a slightly different world and he he was he lived in Nashville, and you know, Yola Tanga was kind of an anomaly for him, he worked with a lot more singer songwriters, and he definitely approached our band a lot differently. There's not a lot of it's
not a very distorted record in terms of guitars. He really you know, was I just remember you know, he yeah, it's a lot cleaner, and he was just like he just loved Korn. Janet and I were just like, oh, yeah, Like he just was like, oh, Korn, Korn krant and it was yeah, and which is fine, but we had just never been treated like that. And but you know, it's it wasn't the first or it was the first time. It definitely wasn't the last time where someone like singles
someone out. But it was just funny because you know, usually you're like, no, we're a band, and he was like, now Korn.
I loved that. I loved that.
But we really liked working with Roger. But it was just it was different, and I'm glad we did something different.
I'm also you know, curious about the group dynamic, especially
with a group with a legacy is yours. How important is it to maintain a personal friendship in lieu the fact that you guys are also having a business, Like I went through a period where like we started out as best friends and then somewhere by the third record, then it's like we're just business partners, and then all right, two tour buses and then I'll see you at the gig and then you know, like we're I'll say, in the last three years, like Treak and I really like
getting back to us really being friends again and not just about business. But how can you how do you balance that when you're also businessiness partners and friends? Like how do you how's that balanced? Or is it just like on the off season or was it why that nine year hiatus happened?
I mean I think that, you know, like we were saying at the beginning, it feels like we've been on a journey, right, and I feel like sometimes we've balanced things, you know, like dig me out. We were all so young, but we were figuring all that kind of stuff out. How do we how are we in a band? How are we friends? How are we running our own business? How's it like worked really well? And sometimes it didn't? You know.
Yeah, I think similar to what you're saying, Amra's like, it's it's shifted, you know, And I think there was a time I think where we didn't intentionally you know, care for it, like you know, nurture it, because you just kind of assume, well, we can, we can do all this. We can we'll be friends and we'll run this business. But I think the business party you start to realize, well, that has its own like politics to it, and sometimes those do not overlap really well, and you
have to kind of protect both. And as friends you're like, oh, why are we favoring the business? You know, You're like, which one are we favoring in that moment, and that can get really volatile. I think when we came back after the hiatus, and we did we all kept in touch during that time, was it an.
Actual conversation like we should take a break and an indefinite break, like do we take off for five years or let's take off for a decade or well?
I think Ian Mackay from Ugazia he claims he invented the term hiatus or indefinite hiatus, and I wilso I'll just give him credit for that. But I think we just use that term because we weren't sure. I think we thought we were done right korin didn't. It felt kind of like we were done. I didn't think so, oh we'll see here we go.
So after the last gig, like was it like okay, we'll talk or you know when we went on how you do? I think the Woods. The Woods was the last album of that period. So after the end of The Woods and I'm assuming that you tore it behind it or not, I think, yeah, it was it was the Woods. Yeah, then what like what happened a month later or just a year or two go by and you're like, oh shit, we haven't wrote a written a song in a second or I'm gonna do no, it.
Was like right, or I got pregnant.
That's also okay, I totally forgot that motherhood also play Yeah.
Korin was going to have another baby and I was.
I anxiety like ruled my life back then, like it just and I just had a ton of Yeah. I mean we all know people who have anxiety. Like now that I feel like that part of my life is in check, I can see the amount of energy it takes to be around someone that has totally like unmitigated anxiety because you're just always you have to like suppress all your own shit. Yeah, so that they can like figure shit out, And I think that was kind of
me in the band. You know, everyone was like, oh gosh, you know, Carrie's dealing with all this stuff, and so I think everyone was like, this is not worth it.
You know. Korn's like, if I'm.
Going to leave one kid and be on tour, have to bring a kid on tour, this better be worth it, you know. And it just it was a natural breaking point, I think. So we were not like sitting around like waiting to write other songs. It was like, we're done.
How did you you talk about your anxiety and kind of working through that?
How did you work through those struggles?
I mean, honestly, I went to therapy. I just I just did it.
I just went and I was like I need help with this, you know, and I just worked some stuff out that felt like it was kind of you know, anxiety I think is just such a classic flip side to depression. And when you start realizing that really you're just expressing like fear and sadness in a way that's like much more outward, you know, you start kind of getting through it. And now, I mean, Corn, you can testify, I'm like, I'm way more chill.
Way more chill.
And that's part of like how we work through being friends and business partners is because we both worked on stuff on our own before we said like, let's play music together again.
It's like we actually did some stuff, did some growing up.
Wait, I have a theory. I know we're going to have to let you go soon, and I want to get to the end. I'm trying to like rush through each record. But I have a theory, all right. So when I started doing my the deep dive you carry your book came out when twenty sixteen.
Yeah, say it was a year after year books. I remember we did those co interviews.
Yeah, those things together. Okay, So I always had a theory that whenever I gravitate towards a particular album and someone's cannon, it's always the wrong album I gravitate towards like I love Hot Rocks by the Stones, I love rat On hum By YouTube, Like I'm always picking the wrong damn album and their thing. And I'm afraid what is Because again, all of your albums are critically acclaimed, but for you personally, what is your feeling behind one?
Because I really loved of all your records, one Beat was my favorite, but what is the like I want to know if I chose the wrong album or not. Like in terms of like when people come to me and say, yo, man, I love the Tipping Point, I'm like, I fucking hate the Tipping Point.
So.
I feel uncomfortable. But like with one beat in your or at least in your canon, what do you feel that your your best work that represents you?
Is you think like an artist is just gonna cop to the record they don't like the most? Do you think like YouTube wrote YouTube like rattled Home sucks like or whatever it is like talk.
About about rattling hum Okay in hindsight, no, no, no, I still stand by it. But I usually when I talk to fellow music snobs when it comes to my rock shit, like I like Presents by Zeppelin when I should be liking Physical Graffiti, but for some reason, I always liked that. I like three minus three, that's my favorite. But that's classic right because that was also a departure record, So I'm not saying the departure record. But in your canon,
what do you feel is your favorite? No, what is your favorite and what do you feel your departure record?
I mean one is one of my favorites because it's it's.
Like I'm growing up then.
Yeah, it's because it's like such a record of it's so emotional.
It was when I was right after I had my son.
So a lot of the songs are about like that experience, about joy and about like the fear of you know, having this thing that you love more than anything in this kind of dangerous world.
Okay, Yeah, I think when we definitely stand by one Beat for years, it was the album before that, All Hands on the Bad One that I think we would. I mean, it's hard to assess because it was definitely the first album where there was I think Rolling Stone called it the dog Biscuit of our of our catalog. Wow, And I remember just looking at those words dog biscuit. I was like, wow, that's harsh.
How important is the critical claim to you? Not, you know, like having a like a perfect report card, Like are you obsessed with keeping it on that level?
No? Because we we we blew it up on the on the last two records, people were like, oh this now, that's I mean, you know the Saint Vincent record that she produced for uh, that's our definite departure record. I like it too, and I think it's funny because now people like it.
It took it, you know, it took the year and a half or two years.
I mean, I think people liked it at the time, but it might not have been the same people that liked dig Me out of One Beat. Like, we got a lot of new fans on the last record, and we have got a lot of new fans on this record too, but the people that it was a.
Very experimental record. Yeah, well you guys came on the show to promote, Like, yeah, I was, I was into it. I was going to ask what was it like working with Saint Vincent.
She was great. We learned so much from her.
I mean, she's so, she's so she approaches a song and songwriting with such a like a larger vision.
You know.
She she'll go in and and just you know, take a vocal part that I was doing and like a.
Certain register and be like, well what if you bump it up to octaves?
And I was like, wow, push yourself.
Yeah, she's such a maximalist.
And I think, you know, like you were talking about our early material, like there was there's a lot of minimal there. There was a lot of just this kind of like raw stripped back, you know, essence to the band, and I think she just she created this density in there that I thought was interesting. You know for us, that's a new thing to explore. It's a different way to get out some of the emotionality.
Okay, so with the Path of Wellness. Of course, this is your first album without Janet and the band. So first of all, what was the process like creating an album, you know, in the face of the apocalypse. I'm curious about anybody that's in a creative space like that starts
their process like around June July or whatever like. So he explained that the process of creating this record, especially the fact that I would assume that you guys started in you know, somewhere in twenty twenty, where's your headspace? And how are you not or were you using the energy of the panic of the world to create this album?
I mean a little of both. And we actually started it so it we were supposed to go on tour with Wilco last summer and you know, it was like the end of the touring cycle for the Center Hold. So it's you know, those like secondary tertiary markets were
just like amphitheaters, in the summer. Yeah, yeah, the Shed tour, and so we were imagining we started writing some songs, thinking like, oh well, maybe like road test some new material, and it had this like very sort of like outdoors feel like it was like we're making music to connect with people in this in this like collective spaces, sunny days, and then all of a sudden it was like the pandemic. But we still had I think musically something left over
from that feeling. So I think we started in a place where the music felt like it was trying to imagine like togetherness, but then we were in this like claw strophobic, fearful, insular space, you know, with so much strife up front of different kinds going on around us, you know, from protests to force you know, wildfires to the pandemic itself, and so you get this kind of like narrow, like very I don't know, just kind of these lyrics that are like trying to wrestle with all
these things over music that has I think some lyft to it. So it's a little bit of like a I don't know, two things kind of meeting in the center.
What do you think you.
Guys currently are in Portland right now or yeah, yeah, what exactly is going on in Portland right now? Where it's like it's a side of Portland I never knew existed, like politically, Like just what's been going on the last year and a half? Is it still happening? Like can you just basically explain like what the environment is like there now?
I think unfortunately, it's still pretty tense, you know, like in terms of protesting and the different groups that are drawn to Portland. I mean we have this we have a police force that is out of date and I'll put it wildly, they're very out of date and how they're doing things right. We have these very radical left wing protesters, and we also have this very rural white conservative group that loves to come into Portland and just cause trouble. So we still have a lot of these
different factions going on. So it's it's we still have a lot of work to do here.
Yeah, I think there's I mean there was definitely a reckoning like there there was in many cities, and you know there are groups here like don't shoot PDX and care not cops that have been working for you know, racial justice and you know, to get rid of like dismantle like the police the way policing is now for years, you know. And then of course that coalesced with the George Floyd, Breonna Taylor protests and the BLM movement, and
that was what was happening last summer. But then you also had a faction that we're not really aligned with that that were just there to like function up. And so there's the people that are still kind of protesting, tend to be not in the BLM movement, tend to
just be a little more in the Antifa thing. And it's not that I disagree with everything Antifa stands for, but it is it's the city is has a long way to go, I think, for like figuring out how to coalesce some of these ideas and actually make progress. But luckily there are people who have been working at us for a while that hopefully will kind of have their voice heard now that I think are hopefully having
a platform to make changes. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure people have been calling anyone I know that lives in Portland, had everyone like texting them like what is going on?
It just seemed so crazy for a while.
Yeah, I was shocked. I was like, well, I had to readjust my list all right, before I let you go, Carrie, I got to ask you have you met her yet?
No? Okay, let's retall. Let's recall when we were on the Tonight Show.
How could you waste such an opportunity?
I know, but that was so stressful because remember she was running late, Yeah, she was running late, and then.
And who Okay, so you know there's there's a special place in Carrie's art for Madonna the twelve years old and Carrie is you know, and you know at the time when we signed and changed, well not changed to our management when Rich passed and we sort of merged to Maverick management. Of course, you know, guys was running it and kind of you're down with guy, then you
might be down with Madge as well. So, knowing how much of a fan that carry was, I was like, well, I gotta make this shit happen, because you know, the group was on the show when Madonna was the couch guest, and so even in touring, like you guys were touring in Australia whatever, and I found out she was there too, and I no.
You hooked us up. It was That was a great night.
We went and saw her in a tiny club that was the best, and so I that's all I want you.
I'm already delivered. I'm so grateful.
So you are you one of those people that like you don't want to meet your idols.
I mean, I'm fine with that proximity going to You're satisfied with this.
You have more than delivered. I am. I'm grateful. I don't know what else we could do at this point.
Yeah, it could be anti club acted. I get it. I get it. I was reading Carrie.
A good buddy of mine, buddy, Craig Jenkins, he interviewed you guys last it was last year. It was for the for the for the new record, and you were at the interview. You're talking about a Heart documentary or not a documentary. I guess the Anne Wilson.
Oh, the biopick.
Yeah, yes, biopick. Yeah, where's that at? What's the status on it?
We're casting right now.
And as I was telling, as I was telling Greg, it is so hard because I mean, you say the word biopick and everyone, like any music fan, just like braces themselves because they're like, oh god, you.
Know there's there's a line.
Yeah, there's some great examples, and there's some ones where you're just like, how did they cast this person?
This is not about music, but I.
Wrote it, and you know, I hopefully it's a different perspective because I've come up in the Northwest, Like I love writing about music. I'm trying to make it for music fans as much as for movie fans. But we're casting and we've got to get it right. So that's where it's at.
That's so dope. Good luck. Wait, I got one more last one before we go. Did I not hear a rumor that you were considering of turning your uh your book into a series, a TV series.
Or I tried, I made You've got so far as to make the pilot and then and then the network didn't pick it up.
Wait, there's a pilot.
Yeah, I'll send it to you. It was cool. But I'm anyway, I'm.
Excited for you because you've got this amazing movie coming out. It's coming coming right, Okay, fine, but anyway.
Yeah, it comes out, it comes out July second, and I'm excited.
So we're excited.
I'm not I'm not trying to deflect. Wow, how could you pitch your own movie on I mean what the heck, cool man, Trust me, That's why I got Disney for. I like to thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it, and you know I'm I'm an admirer of of of of you guys and and and your band, and thank you for blessing on this on the show, Ladies and gentlemen, Sleeper, Kidney or Quest Left Supreme U. Bill, Yes, sir, congratulations on your success as well. And we're all successful.
It's fantastic, Tony Well, it's been an honor to be on this show with you, you know, and with all of you.
Thank you, Yeah, thank you for hanging out with us.
This is fun, all right, Sugar, Steve, Bill, and La. This is Quest Love and we'll see you in the next go round.
Hey, this is Sugar Steed. Make sure you keep up with us on Instagram at q l S and let us know what you think and who should be next to sit down with us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast.
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