Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Hi, this is Sugar Steve from Questlove Supreme. It's April, which is Jazz Appreciation.
Months, so we are running some selections from the qlsrchas from artists who make some jazziza. This is a twenty twenty one conversation with none other than Pat Martini. He is the only artist to win Grammy's in ten different categories, and he's got twenty of them. This interview explores Pat's many facets of music and his incredible career accomplishments. From one of the greatest guitarists in all of music, let alone jazz.
Please enjoy this QLs classic.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I'm your host, christ Love. We have the entire team Supreme with us right now. There is Sugar Steve ready.
Hello, How you doing?
Pat Methene? Oh my god.
This is awesome for Steve, It's awesome for all of us. I'm paid Bill, what's up?
Brother?
And I feel the same way, Papathe I don't know what you did right now.
I'm gonna try to keep it cool, all right? Skipped it from now? These fonticlar.
I wear it up, but I'm good man down thirty eight. We weighed in. You know what I'm saying.
So, yeah, weigh in every day?
Hell no, that's chaos.
I only wear it once a month. I was waiting, Sorry, what's a week? I weigh every Monday. So every Monday I weigh in and then immediately after I wait in. That's when I have, you know, whatever I want to eat just at the way.
In, you know what I mean.
So because they.
Give me the rest of the week to work it off.
You know, accountability.
I feel you integrity and accountability. I'm right there with you, like, yeah.
How are you?
I'm good and I'm negative COVID negative as of yesterday.
I just wanted word up. But what you had like or something?
Huh?
Where you worry you had like above or something.
I'm trying to get out of town, you know, but shd I know what I am right now?
You know what I mean.
I had a major bug last week. I thought it was I thought it was a rap y'all, it's just around man, I had the flu, but it was it was major anyway, Hey.
Guys, Pat Metheni's here.
Yeah, oh I got that anyway, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today, his reputation speaks for itself. First of all, we have to start with the mind blowing factoid that our guest today is the only musician UH to win Grammys and ten categories.
I didn't even know there was such a thing like.
It's we got to make a collaborative record, so you can get a hip hop one.
You probably have one on it, Okay, you know what I'm saying.
Not to mention this being his almost fifth decade in the professional recording business, his grand total was twenty He's absolutely one of the most adventurous, dependable, expansive creatives and cat artist in music. Even without a guitar. Is the way that his brain thinks. He is a self recleaned professional improviser, which is very impressive to me because to deal with the pressure of having to live up to the moment of your expectations and audience expectations, that's a
lot for me to to weigh in. So I definitely want to get on that. That's you know, so much I can say, but you know, let's just get to it. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. Be great Pat matheney Es question.
Thanks man, what what a treat for me to be here, and thanks for inviting me. I really appreciate it.
Well, we we thank you for coming.
We were We're also complimenting you on your on your your your awesome coiff that you've made.
Coming from feather one of them picks like you.
That's all you got to say, That's all you got.
To you know. It's it's weird because.
I know, oftentimes sort of outsiders tend to pigeonhole musicians in a particular category, and oftentimes more than that, it's not necessarily sort of an apt description. I mean, you know, to call you a jazz musician, I think is rather limiting, because you know, you've done so much more.
I always wanted to know.
But the thing is, I'm very familiar with your catalog, but not familiar with your story or your journey. What would you necessarily call your your brand of music? Because you you've literally done everything but the kitchen sink when it comes to emulating sounds or producing sounds from your studio to the record stores and to our ears, What would you call your your genre of music?
Yeah, that's a question that comes up a lot I'm sure for you too. For for for most musicians, you know, it's it's it's often an issue. I mean, you know, for me, I wish we had a better name for for stuff, you know, or or that we didn't have to have names to me when whenever we start going down the thing of you know, and and yeah, you're right, I get it all the time, like you know, what is what is this? It's usually for me it's usually a political discussion or a cultural discussion or a dress
code discussion more than a music discussion. And you know, I feel like there are a couple musicians in that generation that sort of is just above me, that's sort of were of course heroes for me, but also kind of defined a new way of being as a musician. And I'll just throw out some names. I mean, Herbie
is one, Chick Korea would be an incredible example. This Keith, Jared, Gary Burton, And by that, I mean it's a bunch of musicians who could play written music with the New York Philharmonic one night and probably not get fired and actually be invited back with you know, kudos all around, and could play the next night with you know, James Brown or something, you know, I mean, or or could play with, you know, a folk singer. I'm kind of like a little bit what you guys have to do,
you know, on the show too. But I mean, for me, when I think about that generation of musicians, and there were a few significant people before them, Train, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum ll come to mind, it's people who really advanced what was possible on their instruments, beyond any description that you might want to impose on it on a political level or a cultural level, just strictly in terms of what can you do as a human being with an instrument in your hand. You know, that to me
is clearly the model. And you know, I mean the J word, I don't know anybody that likes that really, And you know, then there's all these other ones. I mean, man, there was the the F word came along about about ten years into my thing, and I was like, where did that one come from? I mean, you know, when I first, you know, started making records and stuff, that was the era of hyphens. You know, there was jazz, rock, jazz, folk folk, this, you know, you know, and in a
way that was a little bit descriptive of something. But I mean, man, by the time I came along, I was actually a reactionary to you know, distortion and backbeats and stuff. I mean I was already kind of like, you know, you know, kind of looking for something past the Maha issue thing. As much as I love that that was really more closely connected to, like Tony Williams or something like that. And you know, so you know, it's it's hard to to to come up with a name.
So here's what happens. I mean, you direct answer your question. I'm sitting next to a person on a plane who says, well, what kind of music do you play? And I kind of look at them and I go, well, you know, this person seems like if I say jazz, they're going to know what I'm talking about, or they're not, or you know, it's like it's a case by case thing. But man, I mean I kind of would do anything
to have to avoid having to do that. But of course, you know, we do live in a world, especially now, where you know, this whole issue of stratification of our entire personal lifestyles or something that everybody's cure aiding their entire existence in very specific ways. Yeah, my thing of trying to open it up even further, is the actually in direct opposition to the culture of the moment.
So I see, Yeah, I was going to say, well, okay, I do want to start to how you came to music, but since you already went there, I have to know, okay, because you were born in a certain time period, and knowing that you know albums like in a silent way or a bitches brew even on the corner, or I mean, I mean, we can even talk about like the experimental
phase of Coltrane during his last period. You're twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen at the time, which I know based on other musicians I know of that that's a very that's an extremely impressionable and influential time in a musician's life where they take everything in and don't throw it away. Whereas I would guess if you were older, if you were in your twenties during that time period, you might have an eyebrow raised with what the fuck is Miles David's
doing right now? But can you describe what it was to grow up at least with your young ears, assuming that your palette was changing by.
Eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen fifteen, could you.
Describe what it was like to witness kind of first generation those experimental movements in jazz at such a young age, Like, how did you take to it? Was there someone to slap your hand like that's not music?
Or had they done that, it would have made me like it even more, which was kind of the kind of where I was at. No, it's funny. It's really interesting that that you're mentioning that it kind of coincidentally, in the past month or so, a really fantastic writer in the Kansas City area where I am from, wrote
a book kind of. I mean, it's ostensibly about me from nineteen sixty four to nineteen seventy two, the years that I, you know, kind of was on the Kansas City scene, right, and man, she brought back all kinds of stuff and there's all these people talking about that era, and man, it just took me right back there, because generally speaking, I don't look back too much. I'm if you come to my house, you were talking about Grammys and you wouldn't see one thing.
Man, every broken every day.
I started zero. You know, I don't want to see anything about how the gig was last night. I want to like whatever. But today it's new, and so I don't like to have anything around. I don't like to think too much about kind of, you know whatever from in the past. But this book just took me right
back to exactly what you're talking about. And you know, I'm talking about Kansas City, but in fact, I grew up in a rural town about twenty thirty miles away from Kansas City, where, I mean, man, no one had any idea what I was interested in at all, and nor did I really have any frame of reference for it. So, I mean, I realize now my way of quantifying things was, oh, it's on a record. So the record could be The Beach Boys, it could be Ornette Coleman, it could be
John Phillips SUSA. It could be Porter Wagner and Dolly Parton. All I knew is I could take it down in the basement and play it on my parents recently retired record player, and actually I only had a very few records, and one of the records that really made an impact on me was a record my brother brought home four
and more. That was it, Miles and Miles record. It was you know, it was the Quintet when George Coleman was was in it, and it's sort of all the up tempo stuff from the My Funny Valentine Live concert. And I mean, you know, I do hear the rap often of people saying, well, you know, you got to develop a taste for that kind of music and this,
that and the other thing. Man. For me, it was like somebody switched on the lights and it was mostly Tony to tell you, the tree it was to me the sound that, yeah, the sound of the ride symbol was to me like that was what was about to happen in the world. And it was actually.
And Tony had a really like heavy It was almost like I would describe it as his approach to his ride symbol was violent but very beautiful. Just the amount of tone that the fact that he can get so much tone out of one symbol, hitting in various ways like yeah, that always.
And also he you know, it was just this constantly changing like set of grooves. It wasn't it was, you know. Then of course I had no reference of any of that either, nor did I understand that they were playing on a blues or they were playing on the form of there is No Greater Love. All I knew is what it sounded like and mostly what it felt like to me. And at the same time, you know, I picked up a guitar a year or two before that because, like me and a billion other people in the world,
I saw the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show. So the guitar itself was this sort of iconic thing as much as it was an instrument, and in reference to my general nature, the one thing my parents didn't want me to ever do was play electric guitar. So, I mean, you know, there you go. It's like, you know, it's kind of I joke around.
Like an electric guitar was like a four letter word, similar to like Dylan grabbing electric guitar in sixty five.
Like, oh, way more than that. I mean, you know, way more than that. I mean it was like I I you know, it's more like Mom and Dad, I think I'm going to join the devil worshiping cult down the street here.
So it wasn't a matter of like we just want a less a not noisy instrument in the house.
It was more like what that guitar represented exactly. Yeah. And there were musicians though, right well.
They were kind of musicians. I mean, actually they were very musical my dad especially was a really good trumpet player. And I have a very important figure in my life. It's my older brother Mike, five years older than me, incredible trumpet player at a very young age. And I started playing trumpet two when I was eight, and hence the Miles Davis record. You know, trump but was a thing kind of in our family, like, you know, not
any particular kind of trump but just trumpet. And you know, we would go see Doc Severnson, who was you know, come out the Midwest and do concerts or Clark Terry more about the trumpet part of it. And so yeah, guitar was this other thing. And once again they were right. I mean, man, what happened in the few years after nineteen sixty four, sixty five, sixty six with people with guitars strapped around their necks was their worst fear come
to life by ten thousand percent. You know what's weird in my case, though, is that that Miles moment put me on this whole other direction. And this is more in response to your question, I didn't think about, like, oh, ornett is really some wacky, far out thing that people were getting into fistfights in front of the bandstand about and Wes Montgomery, Oh he's commercial because he's playing going out of my Head. And you know, I just had no, first of all, no interest in that in that aspect
of it. I was just like, man, what are they playing? And how are they playing that? And what do I need to know in order to understand this? Like what is this?
And did you know did you understand at at early age that maybe jazz was sort of like an intellectuals music or an intellectual game, like.
Did you choose jazz?
Because like all of your other friends are trying to learn Smoke on the water Riff and you're like, well, I'm learning Wes Montgomery.
Like, I mean, you know, again, I have to say where I would where I grew up, man, I mean yeah, I was. I was completely non aligned with any person my own age. You know, I just had nothing to do with anybody, nor was I particularly interested what anybody thought about anything, because I was really in them. Well, I think most people that are going to deal with this language at some point along the way, they had to spend four or five years, twelve hours a day alone.
It's you know, it's sort of like, you know, I want to give a speech in you know, Greek to a bunch of nuclear physicists. You know, first of all, I have to learn Greek, and then I got to learn about nuclear physics, you know. I mean, it's it's
not something that's going to happen overnight. You know. The benefit for me, though, was the Kansas City thing where I just happened to kind of chronologically come along at a time where at a very young age, I was able to start working with people who were a lot better than me. And I mean, I don't know about you,
but that's the way you learn is to be. And I always tell people, try to be the worst person in every band you're in, or at least be around musicians who you're going to learn some stuff from, because that's how it works.
You know, you got to be the least knowledgeable person in your circle.
So by the time you got in your first band, what was your knowledge and.
Where were you well, I mean, you know, I did have my year or so of you know, kind of messing around with you know, kind of I guess we could say rock bands or whatever, and but you know, I immediately took it very seriously to the point of concern. I would say, of everybody. You know, I mean the other analogy joke I always make, and it's I think
a valid one. You know, I've got three kids, and you know, as much as there had been resistance to me playing the guitar, the thought of me spending twelve or thirteen hours a day down in the basement, you know, learning who knew what was a little bit like for right now. If one of my kids said to me, Dad, I'm going to become a professional video game player, you know, I would say like, no, you're not. You can't do that. Yeah, yeah, I mean exactly so. But it was like that to them.
I was like, yeah, I'm going to you know, learn you know this McCoy tyner solo on Reaching fourth and I'm going to really check out Roy Haynes. You know tonight.
Mom, So you were you were practiced twelve hours a day?
Oh, I was really. I was really finally.
Up to my expectations.
I get up at four o'clock in the morning almost every day.
Now, you know.
It's you know, to me, music is really hard. I know there's people that are really talented and stuff, and I I really I cautioned people about their talent because I kind of don't really believe that much in talent. You know, I'm more about you know, it's hard. I don't care how talented you are. You gotta you gotta work on it.
Why why are the early days were you pushed towards the hollow body because seems like if you earn rock bands, it's a weird choice for rock bands, right, I mean it was because of West Montgomery, or was just because that was the first guitar you had the Gibs in the.
Yeah, good question. I mean, so with my parents, you know, when I finally like convinced them that I was really I really wanted to get a guitar, my Christmas present one year was not a guitar. It was permission to buy a guitar with my own money that I earned.
You got permission, all right, I got permission.
So it just happened that the you know, I earned sixty dollars doing I had a little back. Yeah, I had a little job and looked in the Kansas City Star and there was a Gibson guitar for sixty dollars. It didn't even say what kind, just Gibson guitar. And it was an ES one forty which is this small hollow body And honestly I didn't, you know, to me, it was like Gibson and it was electric and you know, cool, and so I didn't really care with solid body hollow body,
and that would have been before I heard four and more. Interesting. So once I heard four and more, then I began the thing that we all do of, like, you know, okay, who are the other trumpet players? Who are the other bass player that I need to know? And then, of course guitar. I was already holding it in my hand, and in fact, the father of a friend of my brother said, you know, you should check out Wes Montgomery and he played me a record and man, that was
it for me. And I was like, well, I got this hollow body already.
So I'm like, you know, in the perfect ballpark the guitar shows you you can choose the guitar.
Well yeah, and then actually funny thing happened. Not funny, it was tragic. At the time. My mom is from Wisconsin and back in those days, you the only way to get to Wisconsin from Kansas City was an airline called Ozark Airlines, and you would stop it like des Moines Cedar rapids you know, Debuque, like you'd stop like six places along the way before going to Manitauc where
she was from. And when we got to manage Walk, I went to get my guitar and it was just pieces of wood shattered, not only know, maybe two months so it was awful, and but Ozark Airlines gave me I think one hundred dollars, you know, in repayment for it. And that's when I got my Yes one seventy five, which was the guitar that I still play most of the time. I've had it all these years.
I was going to say to you that I want to thank you because I thought, I mean, we've done five years of five years of shows, and you know, we've had every virtuoso musician that you could think of on the show, and nothing makes them happier than debunking my theory that perfect practice makes perfect And you know this,
this goes a long time ago. I had met saxophonist David Murray and I would ask David like, yo, like you know, he mentioned something like, well, you know, I took a nap at two in the morning and then I got up at six to practice my scales. And I'm like wait a minute, you practice your scales at six in the morning. He's like, yeah, every day I wake up like five, six in the morning, do my scales for about four hours. I do breakfast and da
da da da, Then I do another five hours. We're in my tonal thing and I'm like, wait a minute, how many hours.
A day do you practice?
And he's kicking it, like seventy He's like sometimes ten eleven hours.
I'm like to this day. He's like, yes, to this day.
And then like his gigging starts, you know, after that eleven hours, and you know, I kind of stuck to that sort of that religious and that was like back in eighty seven eighty eight, and like you know, you know it's doing.
Like a master class with him or something.
But then, you know, I would ask every musician that I knew, like how often do you practice? And they'd be like whatever, like two three at the most. It was making me think that that whole thing was just
a myth, like the idea of the musician. Ernie Issley has a similar story about when when Jimmy HENDRICKX used to live with the Isisley Brothers over in Jersey, how Jimmy would wake up every morning to practice his scales four point thirty five in the morning, and Ernie would just sit in the closet and watch Jimmy for like two to three hours practicing these scales.
And then that's basically how.
You known, in my opinion, you know, kind of earned that baton from Jimmy Hendricks. But yeah, I just want to thank you for at least not making me feel foolish, because every time I ask about practice or on the show, every guest is like whatever.
So you know, it's an interesting thing because I think every musician has a wildly different path, as we all do as individuals from everybody else. I mean, everybody's kind of got their own physical thing and their own whatever I mean, And being a musician also is so unique to each person. I mean, what this guy wants to do, what that guy? I mean, everybody's got their own path.
And you know, at the same time, I think that like I'm sure you know, we've both known people who were just at very young age is incredibly good, like they could just kind of do it, and man, that's a tough that's like it's almost one of the worst things I think.
That can happen to something handicapped to be like a super person because it throws you off, you know, it gives you, it gives you kind of the wrong idea.
And I mean a lot of people can skate maybe their entire career that way. But you know, to me, the guys that I you know, maybe that list of names that I read off, like Gary Burton's a great example of this. He I think was in fact, I'm sure he was like this ridiculous prodigy guy, but he also took it really seriously. And I don't know that his version of practicing would be what you and I would talk about as practicing. But you know, I mean
there are people who I think. I mean, Mike Brecker, you know, he could he I remember seeing him near the end of his life and he was like quiet, and he was like practicing, you know. I mean, you know, it's like it. I think it can show up in a lot of different forms. I will add in in my case, I don't ever feel like I'm practicing. I always feel like I'm just playing. And when I practice, I take a tune that maybe I don't know as well as I wish I did, and you know, I
just start playing it. And I try to play it fast. I try to play it slow. I try to play it in all twelve keys. I try to really know what makes that tune that tune. And that's hard. I mean, you know, I can still take tunes that I've been playing all these years and play them, and as I'm playing them, I'm discovering first of all, what I can do and what I can't do, and what I work on is what I can't do. It's like, I don't do what I can do. I work on what I
can't do. So if I start hearing something and I can't really do that, it's like, Okay, I need to work on that, and I'm less. Times I hear people and they're practicing, but they're just playing stuff they can already play. I try to play what I can't play.
Is that what the improvising is working on.
Worms there by the way we're improvising right now, and we're using our language. We all have a relationship to English that allows us to just do our thing without really worrying too much about verbs and nouns and pronouns, you know, or what your tongue is doing while you're you're just doing it. You're just doing we're improvising, And I mean that's essentially you know what what this thing is.
You know, being a musician in this realm is to be able to just talk about whatever you want to talk about and not get hung up with the mechanics of it.
Let me ask for okay, So I think I've shared this story before. George Clinton once famously joked, you know, Prince Prince often had a big reputation for overpracticing. You know again that ten am, I'll find you. If you're late, We're going to do the same riff five hours in a row until we get it right, that sort of thing. And George Clinton used to tease that Prince is the only cat that he knew that could practice his spontaneity.
And you know, I know how big you are on improvisation, And sometimes even when I'm rehearsing with my guys, sometimes I want to save that energy for the stage.
Like I know that there's a certain.
Type of energy and excitement that happens at our shows, in particular that I often worry we might give away in soundcheck, you know, and I kind of want to, like, all.
Right, all right, save it for the show. Save that energy for a show, don't don't go there.
And get that right, and we shoot the ship before the show, save it for the show, and you know, well, you're you're actually I'm wondering, okay. So when I spoke to uh when we did Bobby McFerrin on the show, you know, he said that, you know, that's his greatest thrill, like, you know, not to do too much beforehand, but like he considers that I'm practicing on the stage. But because I know you're so big into improvisation and whatnot, do you ever worry about overpracticing before you even get to.
Present it to whatever show you're doing that night.
You know, there are a couple of cliches that are really effective, really useful, and I found it be really true, and that one about you know, luck or whatever. Success is where prepar preparation meets opportunity. To me, that's like a key one. And the way that applies to this discussion is, you know, knowing kind of as much as I can know about the possibilities of what a situation might entail. I mean that may be the band and
the music, the you know whatever, there's infinite variations. As much as I can be prepared for those things, the more fun I'm going to have. And so for me, the goal in fact is I mean spontaneity, improvisation, professional improviser. You know, we're kind of circling around the job description in a way, and what that involves for me then
is to be really ready. I mean, I'm like, you know, kind of you know, I really strongly enforce that sound checks are I don't want to hear anybody really try to play anything, and I'm like the save it for the gig cham like do not do not jam, do not do anything, you know, like just make sure and kind of I have I usually come up with like one section of something that we can play that we can play it for twenty minutes, because it can take a while for this kind of music to settle into
the hall, and you know, I want to give the sound guy a chance to do his best too. And there's a way for me of improvising where it's sort of like I'm going to just kind of hang in the zone of the fundamentals that it's kind of improvising, but I don't really have to think about it too much, and there's a kind of warming up because The physical thing of playing for me is I could say almost challenging.
I mean, I'm not a natural guitar player in a lot of ways, so I really do have to warm up for a couple hours, and during that period of time, I'm trying not to play any quote unquote music. But I have kind of developed these things where I can sort of invent they almost like unfold on themselves. Like I'll start in a key and then I'll say, Okay, now I'm going to take that and I'm going to move it through uh you know, the cycle of fifths
backwards or something like that. So I'm not really thinking, I'm not thinking about it. I'm just doing something that's going to get the mechanics working, that's also doing the whatever those brain connections are that you want to have where you have an idea and you can get to it within you know, sub millisecond, uh, you know response time.
And you know the best thing for me too, also is if I can go all day without talking and really I don't eat before a gig, I really get into like this thing because for me, the gig is is the that's church, you know, that's the destination. I know, records are a thing, you know, and there were all those years like, Okay, you got to go out on the road to promote your record, and I'm like, really, I to me, it's like you make a record, so when you show up in Peoria, somebody might come to
the gig because they've heard your name, you know. To me, it was always the records where they add to get people to come to the gig, because the gig is it. And that's still the case for me, which kind of fits right now in the world of gigs and T shirts, you know, because that's really what we are, right so, you know. And I you know, I did kind of get into making records there, you know. I mean I got better at it, I think, and took it a lot more seriously as time went on. But to me,
the gig is that's it. You know, it's all headed for the gigs. So if I can really, you know, do the things that I know will help me get ready for that moment, and then that moment does take on this sort of significance as this is what it's all been leading to, you know. I mean from the time I heard four and more, you know, it's like everything has been leading to this moment, and also this may be the last time I ever play, And in fact, the last time I ever played was Auckland, New Zealand,
the first week of March last year. Yeah, you know, I didn't know at that time. Gee, that was the last time I'm going to play for a year and a half. So I'm kind of glad I play like that because that was it.
Yeah, so you've not been on a stage since and now got.
Some gigs coming up. Man, I hope.
How is this the longest that you went concurrently without being on stage.
This is the longest I've been in one place since high school. It's the first time I've brought out a window and seen you know, spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer from one point of view, and I have to say it's been fantastic. I've really enjoyed that. And the best part for me that the headline is nobody in my immediate circle died, you know, and so many of
people in our community have been hit so hard. I mean, not to mention just the new gig thing, but I mean, man, I mean, you and I both know a bunch of people who are not here right now should be because of this stuff. So yeah, it's been rough in that respect, but you know, at this point in life, I've done a lot of gigs, so that's great. And also it's kind of been interesting for me to kind of look out the window a bit.
The first time I think I saw your name and credits was on this Joni Mitchell album called Shadows and Light nineteen eighty. It's a live album from a tour that you did with Jocko. I believe Pastorius was in that band as well, Yes, and Joony obviously. Can you tell us any memories of that time period playing with Jocko and Joni and that tour.
Well, you know that, I mean, Jocko was, like, you know, one of my closest friends, years before anybody knew who either one of us were, and you know, our careers or whatever you want to call it, parallel to each other chronologically in a pretty significant way. In fact, before years before the Jony thing, Jocko it on my first record. He and I both kind of made our recording debuts
together without even knowing that's what we were doing. We thought we were rehearsing with Paul Blaye, one of the greatest piano players ever.
I was going to say, how did that happen?
You accidentally made a record with zachopistor is not knowing it?
Well, you know, Paul was a trip. I don't you know, I don't know how much y'all know about.
Yeah.
That was my next question was if you could tell our viewers about Paul.
Well, Paul changed music a couple of times.
Is it Liar Blaye Blaye?
And I mean you know Carla Blay.
Yeah, yeah, well he was married.
That is why.
Oh okay, see I have a whole relationship with Carla Blay is oh yeah, hip hop samples but good.
Yeah, well Paul was. I mean, you know, I could talk for Paul about Paul for forty five minutes, so I'll just leave it, you know. I mean, if you ever listened to a record Footloose, which was made in the early sixties, Pete Laroca playing drums, Swallow playing bass, I mean that changed everything. There's a solo that Paul plays on a Sonny Rollins record where he called where he plays with Sonny and Coleman Hawkins and they play all the things you are and Paul solo on that
like just revolutionized everything. And you can even go back to like nineteen fifty six. So Paul was a heavy cat and also unusual person. So you know, we were asked to go to this rehearsal studio we thought, which was a recording studio actually, and there were mics and stuff, but you know, we were both pretty green, to tell you the truth. And so we were playing and Paul
had not really let us improvise much. We would just play the heads over and over again to all these hip Carlo Blay tunes and some more Net tunes, and then suddenly we were like playing and I was like, wow, this is great, but the John Jaco sounds fantastic on
this record. Paul that the night before had heard some rock band and had decided that I should play through a stack of marshals, and he'd rented a wah wah pedal, a Morley wah wah pedal guitar player would it's like a fate worse than death, you know, And even with a good wah wah pedal, that was not really where I was at particularly right then. So basically you hear Jocko sounding good on that record and then kind of
off in the distance here and that's me. But yeah, so that was nineteen seventy four, and then we made Bright Seize Life my record in nineteen seventy five, and we played a lot. Is that that trio with Bob Moses, the Bright Size Life trio, you know, And that's so
that's several years before the Jony thing. And in the meantime, so after Bryce Eie's Life, Jocko became Jocko because at the time I did Bryce Eie's Life, I had to like, why would you want to use so and so and so and so when you've got this what's that bass player's name that you use? I was like, yeah, Gary, you're probably right we should do and Moses was like, you're crazy if you don't use Jocko, you know. So
that was the band for Bryceie's Life. And then Jocko joined Weather Report shortly after that, and honestly, he and I went in very, very different directions in terms of lifestyle. Jocko was the only guy I'd ever known, you know, kind of around that time who was as straight as I was. And you know, the first time I saw him with Joe's Amnell, that was a different dude, and
he remained a different dude. And we were always tight, and you know, I had gone different directions, but he called me in the middle of the night one night and said, I'm going to put together a string band for Jonie. I want you to be in it. I'm like, okay, cool, And so it was going to be me and Joni and Jocko and Alex Akunya playing hand percussion, I think, and then I you know, I saw I'm like, wow, this is a different level because at that point I
was still like driving around in the van. I put like one hundred and fifty thousand miles or something on a van with my band where we would play, you know, every two hundred dollars gig. We could play for three years in there. And so suddenly it's like lear Jets and you know, it's a real culture shock, you know, for me. But you know, it was an interesting experience.
The rest of the band was Mike Brecker Uh and Don Olias and then you know, Joni had just gotten an electric guitar for the first time and had like nine George Benson model and the guitars all tuned different, and it was you know, it was an interesting experience. Okay, the best part was here in Joni at the end when she would do a couple tunes solo, because honestly,
to me, you know, we it did. You know, she didn't need that, you know, she was she was Joni, you know, and and to me, her best thing was always sitting there and playing the guitar or the piano or whatever.
You know, So you didn't like her for a raison to the jazz world that you know, like the stuff she did with me.
In terms of phrasing, she's she's incredible, man, you know, I mean, to me, there there are you know again we're back to this. How like what are we going to talk about in terms of style? You know, I mean, man, you know there are some singers like there's some I mean, Dolly pardon man, I mean you want to talk about phrasing or Dion Warwick or you know. I mean to me, it's like, yeah, and Billy Holliday. You know, there's a
Karen Carpenter. You know. To me that I think about people who can really make the melody be the malady, you know, And I'm not thinking, oh, well, now she's she's folk, jazz, country. You know, it's just music, you know, and you know, singers in general, I think we all listen to to learn from how to how to do that that thing, you know, and Johnny is amazing, you know, she's incredible.
I want to ask you about just your working relationship with Alau Mays, you know, who passed, you know, recently. He was just somebody that you know, you just seem to have just an amazing creative partnership with. Uh, how did you guys meet and what was what's your story with him?
Man, it's tough now because it's like, God, there's he said, there's Lyle, and there's Charlie, Mike Brecker, you know, Billy Higgins, I mentioned Dewey Redman. I mean, man, these are the guys. I mean, not only did we live this musical life together and each one is so deep and rich and very they were like I mean, man, Lyle and I grew up together. Literally, I mean, you know, we knew each other when we were you know, basically just out of being teenagers. And you know, it's just so far
beyond what I can even say, you know. I mean, the good thing is that there's those records, and those records say a lot, you know, and yeah, it's tough, man. And then I think about like Roy Haynes, who's ninety.
So that's what I was about to ask you about, because I was given the assignment by my father, who's a student of Roy Haynes, to ask you about that relationship. And you already said earlier that you were listening to Roy when you were a young kid. So the fact that you guys did a record together, like, can you yeah, talk about it?
Please? Man, I could talk about Roy for the whole time.
To me that you know, he's still good, he's still amazing, he's still killing.
He's killing and yeah, I mean it's been now, I think a couple of years since I usually try to go down during his birthday and play at the Blue Note with him. I think the last time I did it, he had turned ninety three, so he must be ninety five or something. It's still playing. Oh my man. You know to me that the drum thing is central and drummers love to hear me say this, but it's the truth.
Whoever the drummer is is the leader. It doesn't matter whose name is on the marquee, it's the drummer's band. And I have been so lucky to play, starting in Kansas City with some of the greatest drummers of this period of time. And you know, to me, the Roy thing as it sort of unfolded throughout the fifties, I always point to We three this, it's a famous record with Roy and Phineas Newborn and Paul Chambers. To me that one, you know, the sound of Roy is the
sound of modern drumming. I mean, to this day, when I play with Roy, that's it. That's it, that's that's in a cole of everything. You just listen to this, This is great.
Yeah, let me let me ask for you.
And I know this might be blasphemous, being as though you know you've done sort of long term work with with your band well In and now the Pat mctheny group, But who would be kind of your all star lineup? Like if I were to sign you and say, okay, in twenty twenty two, you're going to go out and tour the world. You get to put your all star lineup together. Who's on drums, who's on keys, Who's who's uh on bass, who's on percussion?
You know? I mean, honestly, I know that my thing is kind of there's like these partisan things like oh, well, you know, it's really, man, it's just the group. You got to check out the group, so that other stuff, you know, that's really the only cool stuff all areas now. Or you got to check out the tree, you know.
I mean, the thing from my standpoint is that it's not divided, and I have to take some responsibility for that, because I kind of got maybe too good at sort of like, Okay, this is the Patmatheni group, and this is the Patmathini trio, and this is it. And you know, people didn't.
Do that back then.
You know, that was kind of a new thing to have all these different bands and sort of present yourselves in different ways. For me, they're all the Pat Metheny group because they all acted the same way. It was.
You know, I'm going to write ninety percent of the notes we're gonna play, and we're gonna rehearse, and we're gonna you know, it's like it didn't really matter if you look and this is a cop out answer to your exact question, if you look at the list of names of people that I have played with, those are my favorite musicians. And you know, but I include in that Kenny Garrett, Josh Redman, you know, Mike Brecker, you know,
those guys, Herbie. You know, I've been really lucky to be able to say, you know, man, I you know, I just did a due ad tour with Ron Carter. Man. I mean it's like, you know, you know, those guys are my heroes, man, and everybody I play with, including the new cast. Joe Dyson is my hero right now. You know, he's a new drummer on the scene from New Orleans. Man, this guy is everything I'm talking about, you know. So you know it's like to me, to me,
it's one, you know, my thing. I see it as one thing, and you know, I'm just glad to be a part of all of it. Man, I just feel lucky to be in it, you know.
Only because you mentioned it, I kind of have to go there. Okay. So I don't even know if you're aware that.
We were.
We were quasi label meets.
I mean, your period of Geffen I think ended right when I started with Geffen, which instantly meant you know, that first year rating the closet was just awesome. Like you know, it's like your first ben shopping is hiding in the going in the closet of your record label and taking.
All the CDs. So that said, you mentioned zero tolerance for Silence.
Okay, so from from my point of view, definitely coming from a standpoint of hip hop, which I think our ears are built way different than anyone else. For me, that album was is always my go to record because of your shrill noises, you know, like it's literally just an entire album of textures and solo noises that can lead to other ideas. So whereas you know, of course, you know, I guess if you're talking about your cannon for the most part, you know, maybe zero Talents for
Silence would be kind of considered. You're on the corner like an album that was immediately met with indifference and anger from the jazz guard whoever, Robert Christa Gower, whoever, the critic of the moment is. But for you though, I mean now that decades have passed, like what is your relationship? What was your feeling with the record when you turned it in and you know, three decades after
the fact, what is your your feelings on that? Because there was also speculation that you pulled to Neil Young. Neil Young also famously wanted to get off Geffen, And you know, I'm giving you.
That kind of I have to say I rarely get pissed off and stuff at.
That because it was like, oh they thought, you see, you heard the rumors of that, you throwaware.
I mean, there was some guy who wrote something to that effect and it's some magazine and.
That was only because Neil Young did it with trans and people thought, you know, like what, Neil Young's doing a craft work record. Now he's trying to get off the label like that sort of thing. Or so, yeah, what were your feelings on its reception and time since then?
You know my feelings about that well, and also have to preface it. And I don't know about you, but most it seems like many, if not most musicians never ever listen to their own records ever again after they're finally mastered, after they've heard it for six months and have a jest about whether it should be point two dB at niney k. You know all that stuff that we all do.
You know, you don't listen to see if it's aged well. Like I don't like listening to my records personally, but when I'm making a new record, I will go back to the other roots records to see it is his age well or not so yeah, maybe.
I should try that sometimes. I mean no, I mean, you know, every now and then, though I do, I have to say I hear something and I don't recognize that it's me, and usually I go, well, that sounds pretty good.
Who's that?
Scribe It's rare that I hear something and I go, what is that? Oh my god, that's me. So, you know, generally speaking, I would say, you know, my sense is that, like I was saying before, it's this one long story with these different chapters that represented different periods, but it's this continuous thing. But specific to what you're talking about here, I mean that that was a period for me. You know, as I've referenced a couple of times, I grew up
in a kind of open spaces kind of environment. You know, there were lots of trees and then a field and then another tree. So so kind of like the idea of spaciousness was something that was built into my thing, and I carry it with me now. I mean, I've got this seventeen years of quiet that I can always go to. But my life after the time I left Missouri was like man, intense, dense, packed, and it's been packed ever since. I mean, you know. I mean, I'm on the road like more than most people live in
New York City, you know, international family. It's an intense life and the natural thing for me, and it maybe hit a pinnacle around that time was the record Secret Story, which was done just at the same time basically as Zero Tolerance. And the idea that I had at that moment in time was I had lots of these sort of images of things that had open canvas, and I wanted to fill up the entire canvas. Secret Story does that, and Zero Tolerance for Silence does that in a different way,
and that's kind of my sense of it. There was a really great description given to me by a and around the time of those two records, and said, you know, Secret Story is like a painting and there's a river in the painting and it's beautiful. Yeah, that's right, that's the river. And that's kind of the way I see it too. I didn't know it, but yeah.
She was right. I just thought about something.
You know, at the time, in the first part of your career, you were on em Records as well, Yeah, which is a highly trusted label. However, you made the move to Geffen and it's almost like, I almost feel like we're in the same boat, because if you're a non rocket at often questions I got was like, why even risk it going to a label and really not built to promote you or whatnot? So what was what was the unusual choice of going to Geffen Records?
Well, you know, honestly, you're right. I started on ECM. I did eleven records at ECM.
Which Travels I really loved. I wanted to say Travels. I love this that album, man, beautiful record one.
That I still you know, if people want one record of that era, I say, get Travels because that's got a lot of information on it. But you know, after my eleven records or the ECM, they were all done in the classic form. You get two days record, a data mix. By however it came out, that's your record, and that's it. And I mean, you know, that's a viable way to make music. I mean, you know I would still make a record like that now for a certain kind of thing. You're doing a documentary, you're doing
a documentary record. You're getting a bunch of guys, You've got some tunes, You're going to play him a couple of times. You're going to pick the best take, maybe do an edit. We didn't do fixes back then, maybe one or two barely, but you know, and that's it. And you know, I did my best under those, you know, auspices, and I'm to this day grateful to have had the chance to be on that label during an incredibly fertile period for that label. I mean, it was still kind
of emerging. I mean I was within the first hundred ECM records.
A couple of times, I think I can I interject, and I don't want to interrupt the answer to the why I go to Geffrine question. But since we're right here at ECM and I just wanted for our listeners to hear the name Manfred Iiker, So can you tell us a little bit about him? He's the owner and producer of the label and thousands of records.
Yeah, yeah, he's he's the guy that to this day, I mean, he's you know, I was in that first hundred records. I think they're out close to three thousand now, and honestly, everybody should hear about two thousand and six hundred of them. Yeah, I really know how to make records.
Yeah, And he.
And I honestly we never got along. I was a snotty little kid, and I thought I knew all kinds of stuff that I probably didn't know. But you know, my snottiness ended up also being kind of a super charged engine to do a lot of stuff that probably was impossible to do that somehow I did, you know, and I'm just here, I am admitting on air that I was super snotty. Man, that's what, Thank you very much.
And we're going to go back to that, yeah, exclusive, just to finish up the gaff and thing, because ycause it is it is kind of an interesting thing.
So at the time, you know, this was nineteen eighty four, I had, you know, had you know, a kind of success that honestly, I nobody was more surprised than me that we were not selling eight hundred nine hundred records, travels and of you know, you know, the records of that era, including New Chautauqua, you know, which was a solo guitar record. They were selling hundreds of thousands of records. They were on the pop charts. And it wasn't like I was trying to do that. The tunes were still
fifteen minutes long. If just we just kind of were touring constantly, and there were radio stations around that time that would actually play twelve minute tracks mixed in with Fleetwood Mac or whatever else was happening. I mean, there was a bunch of stuff in the culture that allowed that to happen. And so I had a certain I guess viability within the recording industry world that caused the
moment that me leaving EC. I am a lot of interest amongst people, and you know, I'm very fortunate that from the very beginning I've been with one agency, Ted Curland in Boston. We've been together I don't know, forty whatever years now, and Ted, Yeah, Ted got the message and and sort of did a thing where he got a bunch of companies interested. I was able to start my own company, which since then we've licensed to all the record companies. I own everything from post ECM on thanks to Ted.
Oh wow.
And among the suitors of that period, David Geffen had just started his own company and he only had a few artists, John Lennon and you know Sharer and Jennifer Yeah, I mean, there were just a few, and hired a guy Donna Summer. He had hired Gary gersh who's a guy who I had known from the work with that I had done just prior to that with David Bowie ed Em I signed by the way, Yes, yeah exactly, and Gary came to Geffen as one of the guys. Gary sort of made a case like, you know this
guy me, it's nobody knows what it is. He's got a following and you know, we should sign him. And David I said, can I meet with David Geffen? Wow? They arranged it like sure. So I had lunch with David Geffen and he was like, well, it sounds like you've got a thing going on. We'd like to have you on the label. And they never I think I ever heard that Jay were there. You know, they were just like, this is a band kind of like guns n' Roses. We signed this other band, Nirvana. This is a band
kind of like that band. You know they you know, they go out and they play gigs, and they were not thinking of it as anything other than music. And I mean, you know, wow, that's far out, huh. And you know I ended up. I think I've got two or three gold records from them from that period.
I was gonna ask, did you ever think of collaborating with Kim and Thurston of Sonic Youth. I know that was a big fan of yours.
No, and and uh you know, I mean it's funny because, like you say, at the record company, you know, you go to the record company and you see everybody else is on the label. And I used to see that guy from Guns N' Roses like would be leaving as I would come in, or you know. I mean, and it was cool because it's like we all had the same art director. And I remember when they were doing, uh, the Nirvana cover, the famous one, because the guy was working on one of my covers at the same time, or.
That same person.
I mean, you know it. It was all kind of in the house there, including Sonic Youth too, Yeah, because they were they were in there too.
Yeah.
I was going to say, yeah, as of today, the baby from that Enron cover, when the.
Baby is suing for child pronography charges on Saturday.
Just just say you need ten bus.
Man, come on, come on, uh wait, okay, I do want to ask, and does anyone from my world, from the world of hip hop ever make a big deal of letters from home?
Yes? Yes, without me letting it out the bag.
You mean like musically, Yeah, see, this is the thing I don't I don't want to open up a Pandora's box because you own your masters which box, Yes, exactly. But but what I'm saying is that again, the hip hop world has a way different relationship with you than the other words. And you know, I mean that's the thing about him, because they'll look at something that the average world will ignore and then they'll be like, no,
but that's the that's the thing over there. So I'm just curious, like, do any does anyone from the world of hip hop just ever come.
To you and say, like, yo, let hers from home specifically no, next question anyway, you know, I gotta.
Tell you, man, I'm like, you know, I don't hang much. You know, I kind of I've gotten away somehow with doing my own thing mostly, and I you know, even kind of within the circle of musicians that I would probably normally be around, right you know, in the you know, going to Smalls or something, and I do go. Hear a lot of people and I go and I kind of stand in the back and listen to a couple of tunes and you know, but all kinds of music. But you know, I mean I'm you know, I'm not
really like in the scene. I mean, I will say because I did visit the new power station the other day now at Berkeley zoning it, and man, you know that was really cool back in those days where yeah, I would see uh, you know, you know everybody. You know, like,
you know, everybody was there all the time. You'd run into like you know, Eric Clapton, or you'd run into Nita Baker, or you'd run into I mean, everybody was there recording all the time, and you'd see everybody, and it was in a way, it was kind of a social way that you would have an encounter with somebody sort of outside of your you know, normal hang but you know, I don't go to clubs or do anything like where I would be hanging out.
The record that the slip Away record that was sample it was a song it's called Summer Days by its DJ, I think Nick Holder, and so actually crazy thing. I did a panel with him, this is probably I mean, god, this is seventeen years ago and we were just on a panel together and I had never heard any of his music. And then afterwards I heard Summer Days and I was like, man, this is great. I want to say,
maybe like a year after that, chilling another one. My Homi's a big jazz head, and he was like, yo, that's so, and so I was like what and then he put me on to your break. I was like, oh, that's that was thing. Like, I had no clue, but that was a bridge to, you know, to the rest of that album, to the I.
Mean, my fundamental kind of feeling about sampling and the way that not just my thing, but kind of records in general are used in in that realm is very positive. I mean to me, it's really related to collage art and you know, of course graffiti and all of that stuff, which means, you know, that's the language of this moment. And so to me it's like I have absolutely no problem with it, and I love people do stuff, create creatively. But to me, that was just like, man, that's you're.
Just The thing is is that you know, people don't understand like hip hop is at its core, hip hop is African music, and African music is repetitive. It's it's always a repetition of you know, and I know that you come from a world where you got to go linear and go in a straight line, like to.
Somewhere else, somewhere else.
So I initially asked that question if you were aware of how much that particular album, let Us from Home At sort of been a kind of a creative outlet for like a lot of the classic hip hop stuff that I grew up on, only because I know that you were also like very open and a key developer in like new technology, like with the cinclavier and with sampling and and with you know, especially when you start at your falcon and Snowman scoring stuff, how you were
basically kind of using primitive technology that we're using now, Like you know, now half the stuff is on our laptop. Were you actively advising the Cynclavia people on how to build the machine or were you just the first recipient to get it and use it?
And well, we're.
Going back actually seventy nine for that.
Oh that's how early. Okay, it was.
Way before maybe, And yeah, I was out there on the bleeding edge of that end. I mean, you know, there's all kinds of like sort of shocking you know, technological aspects to you know, I mean I remember at one point spending five thousand dollars to get a five megabyte hard drive five may not gig and we it was.
It was a megabyte, not even a gig now thousand dollars a megabyte.
It was that maybe yeah, yep, exactly. And not only that, it was so fragile it had to have its own bunk on the bus. Oh wow. And I mean you use it live, yeah, I mean, you know it's a funny thing because now, of course everybody does all kinds of stuff now. So when the sing Leavier came out, their ad was this is the last synthesizer you'll ever need to buy and uh, and it had several new things that just had not existed before. One was FM synthesis, which this is several years before the dread of d
X seven came along. And then they were the they were you didn't like the patches, well you know they probably weren't that patches.
It, So just be honest.
In eighty five, were you looking at like, yo, d X seven, Man, this is the future?
Or do you automatically knew it was cheesy?
No? I knew, man. I mean we can also talk about since for hours because I have very strong opinions. But you know, man, I mean, you know the thing about acoustic instruments, you can't make them hurt you, you know, and electric instruments, including guitar, their default is pain. You know. It's like you really have to have a concept and a vision of sound before you plug it in with
those instruments because their default is just horrible. And also, you know, speakers, we we all think about speak and we just we don't even think about speakers anymore. Of course, it's gonna come out of a speaker. I mean, man, speakers suck, you know, compared to a drum or a guitar, I mean, speaker, I don't care if it's the best speaker in the world. They're horrible. So it's like you have to have an accoustick framework to build electric music from in my opinion, and I mean my first act
was to plug it in. You know, I've been dealing with knobs and wires and electricity from day one. That's part of the instrument. So all of this stuff, computers and everything else, for me, that's part of the acts. A big thing for me has always been to get a good sound and to you know, make it do at least something that has a reflection in terms of orchestration to this incredible tradition of you know, dietonic chromatic music that's evolved over the last few hundred years, and
you know kind of also included in that. I would say, yeah, there can be abstraction, there can be conflict, there can be dissonance, there can be all kinds of other stuff. But to me, there it requires a certain kind of wisdom to make those things really happen. So back to the sinclavier. One of the things that it had was a sequence there that had never existed commercially before, so I could get this thing to play parts that we could play with. And I mean, man, that was like
top secret for twenty years. It's like, you know, we would hide the single of ear and nobody really knew what we were doing or how it was working and what was going on. And we kind of successfully managed to do that. But I never had a loop. It was always something transparent. I was like writing for Cello's, writing for French ones, and there was always this thing in there. And we almost never had a clique either.
It was always some music. Yeah, it was always something musical that you could you could work yourself into so that you could get the feel in between the thing because to me, that's where the music is too, is the feel of it. But to me, it's like, if there's gonna be a clique, I wanted to rush, you know, because all the musicians I love rush. So if there's going to be a clip, man, I spend hours with the drummer, like working on making it rush and rushing
we would. I did rushing And some of that probably comes from four and More being my first record, because they rushing crazy on that. But you know, to me, those things it's like tech to me should be in the service of the music. I never relinquish anything to the tech. I'm always like, come on, man, you know. And that goes for the manufacturers too. It's like I'm always saying, couldn't you know what if you know that
kind of stuff? But tempo dynamics and I mean, you know, the fact that we're still living with MIDI now is just a nightmare, man. I mean that that sucked in nineteen eighty five, you know, And so for now it's like I know, you know James because I know he works with you, but I mean he brings in these like quirgs from nineteen eighty five and I'm like, no, no, I suffered through that shit back then. Man, But you know what, he knows what he's doing, so he can
do whatever he wants. But yeah, I mean stuff kind of was you know, it didn't work that well back then, you know, I mean, yeah, you know.
How would you because he was so early to adapt to that sort of technology in your live show, how would you adjust if there were any faux paths or.
You know, you louse?
Okay, we lost half the you know, half the programming for blah blah blah blah blah.
They own may not know that. A few years ago I did an entire project with me and a whole bunch of robots. Are you hip to the orchestra on? You know, I kind of ragged on speakers a little while ago, but actually that kind of got cracked back in in early nineteen twenties. Player pianos output device, not a speaker, the composers in the room. But he's not in the room. You're hearing an acoustic sound. I mean, man, there it is. And of course, not long after that,
somebody came along with wire recordings. Then seventy eights. It's like you know that put the player piano guys out of business. So for their last gasp, they are like, okay, we need to like, let's attach some drum, snare drum and some symbols and a xylophone to the player piano. And then people did that, and so they did that, and you still hear them in pizza parlors every now and then, you know where it's like that does yep,
And those were the first orchestrions. And the thing about those instruments you can't listen for more than about thirty seconds before you want to kill yourself because they have no dynamics. It's just like if somebody talks like this all the time, you cannot listen to them because and music that doesn't have dynamics, nobody can listen to that. And that's that was the real downfall of that tech
so flat. You know, fast forward seventy years, Yamaha comes along with the disclavier, which we all know as you know, playing girl from Eanma how to tune in hotel lobbies. Only you would say it amazing technology. And that's sol annoys which do allow dynamics. And I've followed this stuff all along. It's something I've been interested in, you know, basically, midy to control voltage that can hit something or do something.
And so I put together a bunch of instruments from five really great inventors, none of them really knew each other, and went out and did a whole tour, me on a bunch of robots, proving once and for all just how weird I actually am. It was. You know, it was not quite settled science before that, but that did it. You want to talk about, you know, the potential for train wrecks.
Wait, were you the only human on stage?
I was the only human on stage, and check it out. You know. The thing is I made a record which you know was not really understood because you couldn't see it. But at the very end of the tour, because I did one hundred and some concerts around the world with this, at the end of the tour, we filmed it and you can find it online the orchestre On project, and you can see what was going on. And honestly, it's ten years now or more twelve years since I did it.
I can't believe nobody else is doing it. I was like, man, you know this is gonna this is going to be the thing, but my thing, because there is one of these inventors that I've continued to work with, and the issue is dynamics, because when you hit your snare man, the you know, the amount of you know, what goes into that in terms of like pounds per square inch is like way more than any solonoid that existed then
for sure. So now that this one guy who's a Belgian guy has come up with a really powerful solenoid that if you put your hand down there, it would break your hand. Until we can present it to you or jay Z or somebody in an acoustic space doing the thing that it's supposed to do, we don't have anything. But I don't know if you've ever been to Carnival in Brazil where it's like acoustic but loud, louder than Metallica that.
Because they're a billion people playing also the same thing exactly.
But also just the amount of air that gets moved acoustically, you know, and you're right, it's coming from not single instruments but like a multiple of But imagine what that could be if you like, instead of you know, using a drum machine and instead of it being like, you know, something coming through your crappy little speakers, you're like in a where house with like seventeen bass drums getting hit harder than you can even imagine to make a sound
and have it happen. This is the other issue with all this stuff is latency because of the amount of time from the time you hit a pad or whatever till the time it takes it to turn into you know, unfortunately midy one point zero to then the ce you know, control voltage aspect of it to the mechanism can be you know, four or five milliseconds, which in terms of
groove we know is love stub milliseconds. And so that issue also I think, you know, with five G kind of stuff, and you know, we're on the cusp of a whole bunch of possibilities for musicians with this next step in tech that's going to be really great.
Wow.
Okay, so you're are you saying that you are currently trying to improve on a robot's ability to actually have human feel and can pre program dynamics, so like Snare one might be seventy seven, but Snare two might be forty five, and and can do grace notes and can fluctuate and speed and slow down.
But but okay, so but wait, let me let me respond to that, because you know, I mean when the sink lavier came out, you know, stringlers, this is going to put us out of business. You know, it's like you know, a d X seven. You can't tell the difference between this and offend your roads.
It's like, yeah, uk, are you kidding?
You know, no, no, you know, to me, I'm about both and I'm not about either or and the whole thing about you know, the like when I did the orchestra on project, of course, people are like, you're trying to put me the you know, you know all that stuff. It's like, no, no, if this is not a better way to do anything, this is a different way to do something. And I'm all about like, you know, what else can we do? I mean, you know, to me, like again going back to hip hop, jazz, classical folk.
You know, what I'm into is creativity. And you know that's what I like is you know, like, man, I think about the Beatles. It's like god, you know, man, some you know, some artists are like happy if they if each record's got a sound. I mean those guys every track had a completely different sound. I mean, you know, it's like God, I wish you know. I mean, you know the community that I kind of hang in like
we're so creative. I mean, man, how many more trumpet tenor piano based drum records you know are there going to be? And I did, I did two and four. But I mean, come on, let's you know what I mean? If you think of all the spectrum of all possible music that there could be made by humans, and then you think about this tiny sliver that most music now in habits, it's like why.
Well, let me let me ask is there a challenge that that you have yet to meet?
And I guess the B side of that question would be have you how do you? How do you get? How do you navigate in a situation?
Uh?
When you're doing improvisation in which I guess improvisation is.
Only good as your collaborators, and your.
Collaborators is really is only strong as who your weakest contributor. Well, I don't want to say weakest, like, but how do you? Okay, let me just ask that question one is is there a challenge that you.
Have dreamt about that you've yet to achieve?
And how do you navigate a situation in which you might be improvised with less skillful musicians. I don't know if you know, if you sit in a local bar one night with the musician. I don't mean like the guys that you actively tour with, but.
I mean men. You know, for me, you know, it's the It's again, it's one of those cliches, the onion thing of every new step that you take as a musician, you reveal a thousand other things. It's like, God, you know, I really need to work on that and that and that. So it's really infinite for me. I mean in terms of God, what do I need to get better at everything?
You know? I mean it's just I mean one thing I will say though, So when I started making records, I've only been a musician for four or five years, and I mean now it's fifty some years, and you know, I'm God, I'm like so much better now than I used to be. It's which makes it so much more fun. I understand so much more. And you know, remember when we first started talking, that was kind of the goal for me, and it's still the goal for me. I
just want to understand, like what is that? And when I hear some music that I really love, I want to know, like Okay, how does that work? And once I start doing that, usually I get to the point where I can kind of play in that realm and you know, and that that opens up another thousand doors, you know. But I feel like I always am coming to music as a fan first, you know, I'm like, I love music, you know, the same way I love that Models record. You know, I hear stuff all the
time and I go, I love that? What is that? And I want to know what it is? And also why do I love that so much? What is it about that that really makes me dig it that much? Okay, I'm going to give you a weird off though. All example, So the big hit right now, that young girl Olivia Yes and her tunes right her tune, And I mean because I have three kids, so I hear the hits all the time, and you know I did hear in the hits, but you know that structurally that tune does a thing.
So it's like, you know, to do don't give it that much more power now? Unpleasing you.
Again, I don't know anything about the culture. I don't know anything.
About her no no, no, no, no summer you.
Know, doing that thing. And also it's something that happens a lot in right at the moment the thing where it's kind of fast, but it's also halftime, but it's also double time, you know, which is a cool thing. I mean there's like some you know, swing versions of that too, you know. I mean that's a great thing.
And there you have it, Pat Metheny, I.
Mean that that just popped into my mind. But you know, in terms of orchestration, dynamics, build execution, and then particularly communication, I mean, it does the thing right, and you know, maybe that's lost in a lot of this discussion. It's like all the stuff you know about rhythm and harmony. Melody is kind of a mystery zone. But rhythm and harmony, man, you can talk about that stuff. You can go to college for four years on rhythm and harmony. Easy.
Pat, you were talking about your kids. How old are you kids? Man?
They're twenty two, twenty and twelve.
Oh okay, that's Olivia, got it.
That's what I was gonna say.
What with their music matriculation?
Like, like, how how do you what'sh your relationship with them musically.
Seems like it goes like either full in or like don't bug us with the music thing. Dad, they're more in the second category, although all three of them could be musicians. They're all kind of mind blowingly good years and so forth. Taste wise, man, they're all over the place. You know, my middle kid, Jeff, who's like super hip. He's six'. Four he's mostly into, basketball but he started
playing acoustic. Bass AND i mean he's been Around christian And Charlie hayden and all these cats since he was. Born AND i mean he's just got a natural easy walk and. Feel but the notes are kind of, like you, know kind of you, know NOT i don't want to say, random but but you, know the feel Wins actually it's, like you, know with that, feel it's like just fill in some. Lengths but he's just kind of, like, YEAH i Think i'm gonna go practice free throws.
Instead so it's never a thing where you forced the kids to like pick up the mantel and you're going to join the family.
Business and, okay, yeah, NO.
I wouldn't be like. That you, KNOW i don't. See and, also you know, what, man being it LIKE i said, EARLIER i, Mean i'm so happy to be a. Musician you, know it's like we actually get to deal in a. Currency that's. True you, know it's like be. Flat it's always b, flat no matter what else is going. On it's either of it.
Is in every. Language is the same.
Thing you never know feel.
Good you, know we live in a time where facts are, debatable so you know, that but be.
Flat it's always be, Flat, Steve BEFORE i, close did you have a? Question?
Yeah you were also on other great, Labels Warner, brothers none. Such but the two albums you put out this year in twenty twenty one are On Modern. Recordings is that your? Label and can you tell us a little bit about those two?
Records?
Yeah so my label was formed in nineteen eighty, four which Is Metheny Group, Productions and from that time until, now at various points along the, WAY i have made licensing deals with several different companies which were then sold to other companies on a couple, occasions which were then distributed by other. Companies but throughout it, All i've always had my own. THING i do WHAT i want to, do and everybody THAT i have worked with along the
way has been. Great my thing has been my own thing SINCE i LEFT, ucm and it's just been a matter of getting different. Distributions these. Guys, uh you, know it's part OF, bmg this modern recordings, thing you, know for the first time in a really long. Time because actually WHEN i went To, Geffen geffen was distributed By. WARNERS i, mean it doesn't, matter it's really. Complicated Then warners And geffen got into a fight because of. ME i was like this speck of dust on a pond
at the bottom of. That somehow when they broke up their distribution, thing you, know And warners had invested a lot in me and my band distributing With geffen into so, ANYWAY i wound up On. Warners Then warners had a. Thing it was kind of a little different than At, geffen where they really left me completely. Alone WARNERS i kind of did have to you, know and was around a really good guy, There Matt, pearson who was very
a really great enthusiastic supporter of my. Thing and then at a certain point they shut that down and Then None such took over what was left of. That and actually the guy that Ran None such at that time was a guy THAT i he started AT ecm WHEN i Did Bob. Hurwitz so it's been all these. Guys i've known all these guys along the, way and it's been great with all of. Them, finally you, KNOW i had this record deal that had been put in PLACE i think in nineteen ninety two FOR i, mean it's.
Insane and then it kind of got to the end after all these, years AND i did a lot of records off the lay off the contract and stuff in, between and you, know, whatever it's all just whatever that stuff. Was but, finally for the first, TIME i was kind of, like, OKAY i can it's now. Twelve was going to school and a new kid came into the class From germany and he was this big monster fan and he came to my house and sat down with a guitar and started playing all the tunes AND.
I was, like, wow just showed, up like he was invited. Over oh shoot.
Yeah and then he, said and we're you, Know i'm part OF bmg and we're starting this new. Thing would you would you possibly be? Interested AND i was, like, well, YEAH i mean why. Not so now they're, distributing AND i mean it's DISTRIBUTED i think By warreners. KID i don't, know you, know for, me especially at this, point the whole idea of records and all, that it's a little hard to even know what's going. ON i, mean you,
know it's a different world in a lot of. Ways but on the other, Hand i'm kind of like a guy THAT i do believe in the sort of structure of what an album. IS i think there's something to be said kind of like a novel is different than a,
tweet you. Know, Cool, NO i, mean the novel form is a really great, form even short, stories you, know collection of short stories is a really nice, Form and you, KNOW i kind of relate to that in ways that doing one tune at a. Time you, know maybe at some POINT i don't have anything against, it But i'm still, like you, Know i've got so many projects in, mind many of Which i've already even, done that are kind of album type.
Records so, yeah, wait do you have another? Question, yeah can we interview interview you?
Forever please.
Answers you can see for my answers that could actually be. Possible on and on and. On everybody in the house is, like this.
Show actually lives up to the idea of WHAT i would like to think every episode Of Quest Love supreme. IS i, MEAN i LOVE i love the education that we're getting and the, knowledge like this is this is very.
Important all, RIGHT i got one last. Question, WELL i.
Got a bunch of questions for you, too BECAUSE i want to get those, In so.
Go, ahead ask. Away, NO i was about to wrap up up.
To this, question your last, one and Then i'll start asking.
You, OKAY i heard that in an interview once on w BG o where you said that You i'm Sorry, Jersey New york w BG oh famous jazz station Of New, york that you keep a diary or journal of all the shows that you. Do how long have you been keeping a journal of these shows and how in depth are they and do you ever plan on releasing this as a memoir to your illustrious.
Career, well the first THING i would say to that is Something i've been saying on, occasion which, is you, know the line between like full blown mental illness and like compulsive productivity is a very fine one THAT i
do my best to stay on the right side. Of and you know my reasons for, that it's Been i've been doing it since the nineteen eighty one is THAT i was doing a lot of, gigs and you, know back in those, days it was quite common when you would do a tour you would play the same city two or three times on the, tour and SO i was, LIKE i want to keep track of what we played so that when we come back the next, time play a different set OR i put it in a different.
Order so that started. It it was kind of a pragmatic. Thing and THEN i started to, realize, like, okay and also every time we would go to that hall there was like a really nasty, buzz so it's, like you, KNOW i started to keep track of that stuff. Too and every time we would go work with that, promoter he you, know would would not do, this or he
had a crappy sound system or whatever it. Was back in those, DAYS i was the tour, manager you, KNOW i was, everything you, know and you, know having that reference, thing THEN i could at least call ahead to the right kind of, whatever you, know so you, know with stuff like. That but then it THEN i realized too THAT i was taking kind OF i was starting to become more aware of the kinds of things THAT i would do again and again THAT i didn't really dig that.
Much and you, know and this was totally self. Directed and there is a thing that we all have as, musicians especially if you play a long, set you, know, like you, know the fourth, tune you completely destroy the. Bridge it's like you didn't even come. Close and, then you, know two hours, later the set is over and everybody claps standing ovation or, whatever and you kind of, go, well, YEAH i guess it was. COOL i, mean everybody seemed
to dig. It you. Know then the next night you're at the fourth tune again and here comes that bridge and it's like you didn't shed, it you didn't you mess it up, again you. Know so it was stuff like. That it was, like you, know IF i keep track of these things by replaying the whole gig in my, mind BECAUSE i can only do it for about an
hour or two after the. Gig after, that it's, like first of, All i'm wasted because we, do you, know six cities a week and you, know riding the bus every, night and so it's like by the next day it's like just a blur. Anyway so.
All, right so IF i got you have, QUESTIONS i will answer them for.
YOU i got.
QUESTIONS i, mean this is a.
First i'm so ready for.
This i'm not ready for. This i'm, like, yo, man my mom would call me a.
Question this won't surprise, you. Though my questions are to start with about the, movie which is unbelievable, Man thank. Yous. Unbelievable it's incredible what you. Did, NOW i MEAN i appreciate, that you, know but it's more Than it's more than what it. Is it's something else that's really, important and you did it so good. MAN i, mean it's, like you, know everybody has to see.
That and technically not a, question but, yeah not a, question BUT i.
Would take that. Compliment is it any more Sunny sharrock?
Footage AND i do have a comment on, That but how did you get it to sound that? Good?
Yo that is the million dollar? QUESTION i, lie do you? Not one of my favorite engineers in the world Is Jimmy. Douglas, yes a gentleman who's you. Know he started Off Barry white And slave and eventually went To timberland And Missy.
Elliott like he he forty years of.
Excellence he also did The Uretha Franklin Amazing grace movie as.
WELL i lie to you.
Not jimmy hit us and was sort of, LIKE i think this rough mix sounds good as, is and Literally i'll say that we did maybe zero point two percent equing like what you hearing is the act is just a rough reference, mix which to, ME i.
Don't know how to explain.
That only fifteen microphones and you can look. One you, Know i've watched the movie in various. Ways there was one time WHERE i just watched the movies to see
what the outputs. Were and you, know In Stevie wonder set, alone there's there's three mics on his, drums so that's already twelve mics left, over three mics for his, drums three mics for his other, drummer and then his keyboard gets a, mic his vocal gets a, mic and his rhythm, section his guitar and his bass is share there they're what do you call their amster sort of facing each, other so they're sharing a, mic and the remaining five
are going to the brass. SECTION i don't know how it sounded at crispy and, perfect but we basically did very little post on on and the sound like what you're, hearing is like the rough mix of the, reference which to me was way more perfect than anything that we could have done to.
It So sonny shock, right, yes swallow this connects with with our one of our earlier. Points swallow, said, YEAH i would Watch sonny like get there early and meticulously warm up with these chromatic scales for like an, hour and then he would go.
Out on stage and not play chromatic. Scales, no he.
Was, Great, Sonny and you got some Good sonny there. TOO i mean the way and ALSO i, mean, MAN i mean so all the music aspect of it is, great but to, me what was really great was the story you told with, it and the way you told the story and just everything about. It, man it's just the, greatest really really.
WELL i appreciate, that AND i thank you for receiving.
It and they're laughing right now because they know THAT i cringe at, compliments but, No i'm wet right. Now and that, Said i'm rapping up this episode Of Patany's question because they are laughing there As, no, SERIOUSLY i want to thank you for doing, this you, know and, AGAIN i appreciate information in history like.
No, other especially with. Music and you, know all that you've done.
To to to push to push the art form of music, forward not even just, jazz but just creativity for it is not lost on. Me and we're big fans of yours and we appreciate you.
For doing it real.
Man, yeah my good Buddy Chris burnoff is a huge fan of.
Yours he's my guitar. Player he like has like your.
Song he has like A pat mactheeny song book in his studio and he showed it to.
Me do that, shitok like The. Bible it was. HUGE i was, like what the? Fuck so, nah, man it.
Was i'm a huge fan AND i just want to thank you too for so may it secretly. Begin that's another favorite favorite one of yours THAT i really. Enjoyed so just thank you for all the, music, man for, real it was.
A pleasure hanging with you. Guys thank you so much for inviting. Me really, yeah all, right.
Well be half a Sugar steve and Unpaid bill and fan tigolo and, like, yeah my name is Quest.
Love thank You pat mcffeni. Uh this is Quest Love supreme and we'll see you on the next go. Round all, right thank.
You, yo what's? Up this Is.
Fonte make sure you keep up with us On instagram AT QLs and let us know what you.
Think who should be next to sit down with? Us don't forget to subscribe to our, podcast all? Right Peace.
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