QLS Classic: Michael Brauer

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brower talks about the art of engineering, his studio secret and what.

Is this like working with artists such.

As Coldplay, Luther and Vandross, Aretha Franklin, Grace Jones, and Moore. This was episode fifty six from November one, twenty seventeen.

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Roll my name is Sugar. Yeah, I'm never shower. Yeah, that Purple Room, give it back Brown.

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Roll Hospital Ain't ready Yeah, ready to start? Yeah, we wrote my role call Yeah, had a change of heart.

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Well like you actually hit the on the hedge, right, I can just name them all. Luthor, Change, made an Ingredients, Cheryl Lynn, Chrace Jones, Jones, Girls, Queen Guthrie, Angelo Beaufieldtha Franklin, James Brown, Tevin Campbell, gladst Knight, Meet Look, Tony Bennett, Paul McCartney, David Byrne, Billy Joel, uh Hall of Notes, Kick the Coconuts, Glen Jone and now the show's over last John Right now, what they all have in common

Yes, thank you, thank you.

Now, my my personal favorite shows of any shows that we do are with the President Company excluded looking at Sugar Steve are the engineers because they, to me, shape the sound of the artists that we love so much.

You know what I'm saying, and more than you know.

Often I don't even think the artists really know that. I don't think the artists know much of the science that goes into the product that they deliver, but the engineer can explain it. So we thank you for doing this with us. Yeah, honored you. You agreed to do this so for our audience that's not too detake. Yeah, technical nerds, what is the role of an engineer.

To get the vision of the artists down on tape as closely as possible, to record it in a way that when you put the faders up, you've got the feel of that song nailed. Okay, So it's more than just a documentation of the event, but trying to get the emotion and the feel across.

Now, often are you part of because people don't know that tracking a song is different than mixing a song. So is it important for you to actually record the song so that you can really determine the app control of what comes in.

We can we remind a little bit, what's the difference between what is tracking? Okay, well it is tracking. There is a big difference between tracking and mixing. Tracking is when you're recording all the instruments to multi tracks, to many different tracks that you can control the volume over later. And so how you record the drums and how you record the vocal and the bass, all that is very very important to make sure that the feel of that

So are you saying that from the mid seventies to the very early age eight that there was actually a boom, an upward mobile movement, Because when I hear any veteran of the music industry talk, they always speak of, you know, the slow down period of a particular part of the recording industry. You know, some people think that period was like the early eighties, you know, the industry was over. It was musically almost every period every year it is like it was over that year, it was over.

So well it you know, the studios were starving because there were no more acts coming in. They'd all been dropped, right, So, but so in order for studio to stay open, they couldn't have staff engineers also on payroll, so they forced pretty much most of the engineers to go independent.

Ah So, so when people say like Thriller saved the record business, like that is not much of an exaggeration because from the period that you're saying, like those yeah, early eighties, like it was kind of.

It was a time when when bands came in and they had carte blanche with a budget. And I remember this distinctly because of our food budgets. I mean what we ate during launch and dinner was amazing. And then one day none of those bands showed up anymore. They were all off the roster. Uh. And then you know, when it started to bands were starting to come in, it'd say, okay, so what do we do for food budget?

Oh no, no, no, no, no, we don't have that anymore. Do you think do you think that MTV sort of helped with that as well? I mean, of course with Thriller, Yes, it was the butt.

Yeah, I think it was super important. It's also important that bands that were maybe mediocre but had great presence via MTV just became huge hits.

Okay, so who do you remember your Did you get a job at the studio as an intern because you what?

Were you in love with music? Or was it just like I got to get a job with me. I was a drummer with the band. It was just a cover band, and we were out in the Midwest, and I I liked what I was doing. I wasn't sure that I was going to be good enough to make a living off of it, but I had gone to

Days of like I'll see old studio photos of the Beatles and even some James Brown studio session photos, and like engineers were actually dressing like engineers with the white lab Like when did when did that particular period come to an end?

For engineers? Like that was mostly going on in England and Abbey Road. I didn't see unless there was a couple of studios where the jazz studios where that was very evident. But I never saw any of that. I don't think that was really going on in uh in any of the American studios. So how how important is math and equations to you?

Like do you go, I'm a guy that goes on feeling like I'm you know, I'm just learning about different dB.

Levels and hurts.

Yeah, it hurts, and you know overdriving, you know, with hip hop, it's just like more about feel as opposed to you know, science. A guy like Bob Power would say, well, you know too much base UH four level base will cause your record to skip and da da da dad, So you got to balance it and take it.

You know, he has come up with these equations because I know.

That your your calling card or your signature is how you use compression, which I used to think compression was the enemy of music, but you made it work.

So like how important is is percent? Feel? Everything else is a coincidence. I mean you can analyze it and go, oh, he does this and he does that. Or when I started with mixed with the Masters, where I needed to teach and actually verbalize what I'd been doing, That's when I had to actually kind of study what I'm doing. But it was always by feel. If I was looking for a delay, I would just turn it till it

I mean that's when he gets on the board, he just you know, he'll boost up the level and then sweep sweep the frequencias.

So that's how I learned.

That's interesting because throughout my when I was a I guess out of college. I was interested in being an engineer, and then I realized the science of it, and I figured, at some point, even though you are doing it through ear, at some point it's like you have to know the formula of mega hurts into this, and goodness.

I didn't have to do that, because then I would have never.

That's actually what kept me from doing it, because I I almost was a music engineering major in college. Then I saw all the physical class required.

Oh well, you know, I'll tell you what. It's interesting you say that because I was terribly intimidated by people who talked like that, I mean really really bad, and I would have to leave the room when they'd start talking like, oh my god, I'll never be like that. They're so smart, you know. And there and I'll give you the best example where I learned my lesson and this they changed me forever. It was that Media Sound and we have just started. It was right after outside

Am the only white guy in this room. You know, can you can you trust your ears in a studio? For me, the final word is when it's when it's outside the studio. And I know, like most studio speakers are intentionally built to be more dry than what your home.

Experience is, Like how how often can you just know okay, this is this is it? I really trusted my speakers. I would take it home, but it was never My speakers at home were never accurate. They were kind of whacked, and so I stopped doing that and I'd listen to headphones. But then I was intimidated by listening to my mixesm in my headphones because I was afraid they'd sound awful and I'd hear stuff. So I was I never wanted to put headphones on a lot of insecurities to get

So you would you would you wouldn't trust the process of them. You would actually go and make sure that they didn't flatten you out or anything.

Well, I was learning. I mean, he mastered my very first record, and so I'd go in there because back then it was called Mickey and Becky was a Christian act. Oh wow, okay, recorded and recorded and mixed, and uh, they were really great. People. I mean, so many stories with that record, but you know it was the first record and the cover had a banner, big banner across the two of them, you know, Mickey, Oh my god, yeah, what first record?

Who were you an apprentice under when you finally got to assistant? Who's your Who was your.

My mentors were Harvey Goldberg, okay, and Michael Deluge and Fred Christie and Clear Mountain, uh, Tom, Tony bon Jovi. I mean there were a lot of great guys, but the two that really took me under the wings were Michael Deluge and Harvey Goldberg.

In your assistant days, what were your clients like? Where they local acts, any national.

Or about everything? I mean Fat Back Band, Oh talk about Wait a minute, Tony BONJOI was doing Fat Back and and I mean just all you know, heavy R and B was name. Yeah, well good, good question. Remember two of them?

Yeah, Fat Back, I'm like Spanish Hustle, Yeah, Kington.

None of them come to mind now, it was so long ago. Let me see we did the Hustle.

Yeah, yeah, he was there, the Fat Back Man as well. Oh they had one too, yeah oh.

Yeah, now it was but it was m Van McCoy he was a regular. He was a great guy. Man. I don't know, Okay, how old were you at this point? On I started at twenty five, so at this point I'm twenty six, twenty seven. I started pretty late. Were you scared? I was older than most of the engineers. I was even than Fire Mountain? Wow? Yeah, and Harvey and all those guys.

Were you afraid when you finally took the reins on your own or like, how do you make that that leap? Most engineers I talked to either their lead guy like decides to take a vacation or is sick that day, and then next thing you.

Know, well, they were great there because you start off by doing overdubs. Okay, so you would record a guitar overdub, and then you move on to maybe backing vocals, and then you'd eventually move towards doing all the percussion and then strings and then horns all separately, and eventually, you know, the day comes and I remember the day I got the call. So it's gonna be you know, it's gonna be an AD date. It's gonna be pretty big session.

I loved it, Okay, So I want to get into some of your clients, Billy Joel.

Before we start with all the the ones you want to talk about.

Billy Joel, Let's back up because with Billy Joel, there's some of these acts like Billy Joel and Aerosmith where it was part of a box set. You know, I would just do a couple of songs, and I never met Billy, I never met Gosh from arrow Smith. So those were one offs, which you know, it was fun. But I read you also did mixing on Freddie Hubbard.

I'm approaching the hoop elevating. Uh well, what about Red Clay, Well, because that's rudy right.

Yeah, but it was it was after, way after the record had been done. I don't remember why it had to be remixed, but that show was you know, that album was remixed and it was Steve Berkowitz. I believe that was, you know, the head of that. The live version of the studio version.

It was.

God so long ago. I think it was a studio version.

Ok because you were you weren't coming from the hip hop perspective. STUDI version that's tried live version as far ASDA.

So, I mean other what what other CTI records were you associated with?

That was it? I mean again, it was it was going through Sony through Steve Burkowitz, being re released, you know, just like the Dylan records. Okay, it was a point where they were, you know, they wanted to do sac D and so a lot of these records were being redone with the Dylan records. The masters had been lost.

Oh so you're completely mixing from scratch. You're not just taking the half inch and the final the original.

Wow. Okay, So what pressure is that on you? Because I'll notice that.

This explains a lot when like when I go on iTunes and I'll hear variation in the mixes of like the box set versus the greatest hit remastered versus the original version, and you know, it'll be a ring in the snare and I'll notice different mixes. Of course, you'll you know, I assume that you'll try and stay faithful,

Not appropriate to make it anything less than trash. So you do believe in the trash. Now I love trash. See okay, See this is the thing that could because it's gonna say, when I was listening to some of your stuff. Get busy? How dirty? Get busy is right. I was like, listen, man, I want to mix something like that for you because it's dirty something though, because I don't want to do Sheen was. Sheen was years ago. You know that that's what was cool. But times change.

The thing is like when I think of, like even when I think of what hip hop was trying to be the anti or go against, especially like with Public Enemy, Like I'm thinking, oh, Luther Vandros, because I'm like, what's the shiniest, most brightest, most clear. I mean now, as a DJ, I respect it, you know, because I love when a good mix translates over.

The system. But how how do you think.

As far as like you're definitely did you set out to say, I'm going to like just redefine what R and B was, because, with the exception of Off the Wall, most R and B records weren't that super clean.

Yeah. With Luther, you know it was. I mean there was nobody like him when he came out. Nobody was singing like him, but it was pretty basic R and B, and I think the sound we were getting at media sound. It's not like I did something completely different than what we were already doing there. I think I just he looked at me, he goes, you take care of the sound,

Can I ask you.

Guys a question as a novice, like what would be an example of a badly mixed R and B record to give people like a reference points?

Luther was the great I.

Mean, not.

Like for real Princes albums. Oh yeah, Prince records. But this is the thing though, that was part of the kind of Prince albums are bad. And he admitted that, you know, because he did it in his bedroom.

You know what I mean.

Up to what And the thing is, if you work too much on a song, your ears will start lying to you.

I don't know, do you agree with me or are you above the no. I like to take a lot of earbrakes if I can.

Yeah, Like a lot of times, like okay, a cat like Kanye West will blast, He'll blast his music on the biggest speakers ever, and you'll wear.

Your ears out.

So a lot of times when you're mixing, you're supposed to mix it on soft speakers, very low level. Because the thing is, if it sounds good on crappy you know, like your clock radio at home, like what he was saying about his box, like sound excellent. So you shouldn't wear your ears out and you should take ear breaks.

But I don't completely agree with that. You really feel it physically. I mean I start off with the big speakers, when my I've got the ATC fifties and a big ass sub, and when I'm getting the drums and the bass and you know, everything else on, it's cranked. But

And but to finish the point, if those first ten Prints records had a professional scene mix, it wouldn't be the same record. I agree, Like I his this is where Bill kind of gets mad at me because I'm slicing everything after the love Sexy period, like once Prints upgraded to Paisley's Park Studios and had you know, better, better equipment.

Yeah, I just I hated it. I hated it because it just IT'SOK.

The songs were great, like and Stevie too, same thing. The songs are great, but I felt the personality was in the mistakes and the kind of like a Wu Tang record, like you know, like Doctor Dre is great for seeing, but I love the Rissa in the Basement with Mildew and you know, the second they went to l A and did Wu Tang forever and I was like, this sounds like everything else. So sometimes only the best won't do so how how how much of it?

Uh task master was luthor as far as like his.

His his discipline, his anal retentiveness is unbelievable because I know the concert He's like.

What is it like in the studio It was a great experience. He I mean him and and nat Adeley, who was arranging and on the first record he was This was in studio B at Media Sound and he was in the vocal booth and then the band, the whole rhythm section. You know, it was basically performing recording it live. And once he had a great vocal take that was to take. I mean that first album. Those were all I barely touched any of the vocals. Those were all the rough vocals. Those were the final vocals

When you're when you're initially tracking a song like take all right, let's take uh never too Much?

That has not been a lounge? How much pre how much pre uh work goes into your tracking before you know you have a take?

In other words, uh, does the band have to play it over and over again until you premix it?

Oh? No, I've I get the sounds before they walk in, or well they'll walk in, you know. With Never too Much, it would have been Buddy Williams, right, Buddy would have come in and I would have gotten the sounds on him. You know. Back then you'd get these in like ten minutes basically, and so you do do do do doo, snare snare, snare, kick kick kick, Okay, we're good, and then bass. So you see that your rough sounds.

Close enough for Luthor or markets to not be discouraged, like, I don't know this sound. I'm trying to imagine what a rough mix of Never too Much sounds like because to me, thechine of it all, there wasn't the makeup on it. To me, is the product, you know, not the glue, the hair weave.

The.

It was. There wasn't much difference really between doing the rough and the final mix, because I was recording it that way. I was recording it feeling it final. I was riding the faders during the recording, and all the monitors were set at basically one o'clock, and so the way I would record is to keep leaving all the

Well, it's just that he's saying the exact opposite of what my experiences are. Like, Okay, take on things fall apart, take Act two Love My Life, which is pretty much a root support or favorite. But the rough mix sounded nothing like the final mix and a lot of my compositions, it's strictly done on faith of don't worry guys, when we mix it, it's.

Going to sound like this for a long time.

Yeah, And it's like, you know, and for the longest, Tarik hate it. Like the version, the version that's a rough. If I finally consent, maybe I'll leak it out. I mean, it sucks compared to what the final was. And I just had to be like, yo, man, that's the one. He's just right to it. No, no, no, no, but just like just he didn't like it com and started writing to it, and it was like, all right, let me add my verse. But because the tracking when we were done, it just it had no life to it.

Just the final process. So everything the record is done. Now just put it up and ride it properly. And they were done.

So if you want to put a phasing effect on the base or something, or just a little bit of course on it, you would do that as you're tracking.

If everybody thought it was a good idea, yeah, and we committed to it.

Okay, see all right, you just thought that if it sounds good dry, then it's like, okay, this is a song, and then wait till we.

Dress it up and well, yeah, but did it sound good dry? Not really? Okay, that's where we went, Well, let's make it feel great, because otherwise we're not going to print it. When we recorded, it's got to feel great. Everybody in the room's got to be excited.

You said it so much that thought it was like some extra honor in whoever the engineer was that was mixing the album after it was done. Like I always in my mind, I was like, Okay, the recording engineer is one thing, but the mixing engineer, that's like a whole other level.

That developed into it where you had guys who were became strictly mixers like myself. I mean, the first person I remember that being like, wow, you know people are coming to him just to mixing would have been Bob Clearmountain, so it is, and Tony bon Jovi and uh, I mean Godfree and a lot of the guys at the studio became just really really in demand for what they could do with these tracks.

But you let me ask you a question, Michael, So, when it started to become this person's a recording engineer or known as a recording engineer, and this person's starting to become solely known as a mix engineer, did it immediately start to be some kind of like a financial different difference as well, like a mixing engineers notoriously get

Separated and very much in the beginning.

My question is, why do you think mixed engineers deserve to be paid more than recording I've always obviously they're being paid for their for their wrong persons, But no, I mean to me, tracking or recording it's pretty hard work. It is hard work using your ears, you're using and.

You're spending way more time than I am to mix what you spent weeks and months recording. But it becomes a specialty, and the more you can really enhance the vision that the artist had originally and do it in a way that is blowing everybody's minds on, the more in demand you become. If you if you're a mixer, we're the only people that like your mixer. Your friends probably going to get all that much work. But in the beginning, everybody who's an engineer was a mixer. You

I always thought that Bob Power was a way better mixing engineer than a tracking engineer, But then.

Master there is a whole nother level is like if the mixer is a peasant too. I mean, if recording is the peasant to mixer, then mixer is the peasant to master is like the last.

Step that's like, yeah, the last step that you know a whole few leagues what's mixed. If you're doing it right, the mastering engineer shouldn't have too hard a time, but.

He probably gets paid the most.

I don't know about that. It really depends.

But as you said before, the same thing holds true. If the recording engineer does his job right, then the mix engineer shouldn't have two over time.

There are tracks where if I know I'm getting something from Joe Chicarelli or or a bunch of great engineers, and I know I'm going to be mixing them, I'm like, it's going to be a good day. Okay.

So since you say that, I now think that the mixing engineer has it harder, because there have been a lot of times where my mixing guys will be like, like, you know, I understand the nightmare they're going through. Then we have a situation with one of our interviewees where they said that they got it. Who said that, oh, just plays explained that you know they would get bad tracked jay Z songs, Oh yeah, yeah, And a guy like jay Z doesn't understand the technical jargon. He's just like, yo,

Like, yo, why mush it sound like that? Because that's how I came.

They're not going to understand like, well, you know, the tracking was bad, and so yeah, I never we learned not to use that as an excuse.

We just made it good and we had to figure out how to make it sound good. I mean way before drum samples and we're doing you know, like disco records and you get this kick that goes like what am gonna do with that? You know, and we learned how to make it sound like a great kick. So are you more.

Not afraid worried about the producer and artist at hand versus the an R and label president like so say a great example if now Rogers was extremely satisfied with the way that the Diana record Barry Gordy gets it and like this shit sucks, you know, and then hired his own guy to remix that entire nineteen eighty album. So I know that because a majority of your stuff was on Sony and Arista and stuff that you know, is Clive talking to you like, you.

Know, I like my mixes and da da da da da. Well, it's very clear what you were going to hand into Clive. It was going to have to be all about the vocal, and so the challenge was to make sure that you got a real good groove going with the rest of the rhythm without making it sound like it was a huge vocal up. And that's where I learned how to eq certain things out of the record so that for Aretha, I could make her sound really really loud, but you could still feel the track around her.

So, uh, of your of your of your hits arsenal, what was a recalled nightmare?

You know? Did you have to do Freeway Love like five times over? Like?

How often would you have to recall a mix until all parties were satisfied.

There wasn't much that going on back then. You know, you might recall it, and back then it was almost like a memory. I mean they'd start writing stuff down a little bit, but I would just kind of puts and recording, like now you know you can recall something instantly. We're protests. No comparison. I mean, there's just no comparison. So now you've got to do stems. If you're recording on I mean, if you're mixing on an analog desk,

So I.

Survived it. Let me put it that way. I still can't really listen to that song without thinking what I went through better.

But we're telling My Free Way of Love by Aretha right yes now, and it's it's a funny song. I never understood the lyrics and.

Well you pants but that you would use for her, like what, Yeah, I was a four fourteen I used I use a four to fourteen AKG with with Luther and everyone everyone, and I had it angled in a certain way so it was the bottom of the microphone was just tipping at the nose, so it was kind of it would look at their face. That's what I was getting. I was getting their face and their throat as opposed to just the mouth, so I get the

Her head wouldn't go up.

Yeah yeah, oh wow, look at that. Wow. So but four fourteen, that's got that had a really nice area. And then I was using my knave. You know, I was recording on a Neve desk exactly like the one that we have here eighty sixty eight. What kind of what kind of preamps or compresses? What are you running them through? It was the Neve pre amp and the Neve compressor that was in the desk. Oh wow, it's like no outside like tube take notice. Not No, it's not.

When I had the Neves, it was perfect. So another one of your clients that I'm really curious about. I've always wondered about the the quote unquote compass point sessions of Grace Jones's trilogy. Did you mix and I only mixed it? So did you have to go to bahamasador or no? That's after No, I mixed it the entire album.

Yeah.

I really love that record, man, I mean, you know, for hip hop heads, the my Jamaican guys like you know, it's a staple. So in doing that record, which you know, of course would Slid and Robbie as the as the as kind of the the the rhythm anchor of that album and them being known for a lot of the stuff that they don't reggae music.

Uh, what was it like for you to.

Sort of incorporate because a lot of that record would you know, you have to use a lot of reggae effects like echoes and all those things.

Like what was that process like mixing? You know, it just came to me. A lot of that is just this is what it has to be, and you know it's back then, it just happens. Spontaney. Spontaney, That's right. It was no just another day really Yeah.

Okay, Well, I mean, you know, just the legend of Compass Points Studios and well I we're supposed to represent you know now and it's legendary folklore.

Yeah, I mean, but Sli and Robbie were incredible, just incredible. So mixing those records Chris actually produced those records are when I came. I came in and also did it. Yeah, I came in later, you know for the mixing of it. So I don't know what process, but I think Chris was always involved in those records. Talking about Chris black.

Was that Slyestone because.

Robbie Shakespeare you but they're known as Sli and Robbie infamous rhythm section.

They're based in drum. Uh drum and based rhythm section.

And the folklore of Compass is Compass.

Points Studios is uh uh a facility and I believe Bahamas, yeah, and the Bahamas.

And pretty much.

Uh.

Chris Blackwell wanted Grace Jones to get out of disco music.

She was doing, you know, like.

Via Le Rose Viva and I forget the Levia. She's doing like you know, album and a weird disco ship. And he wanted her. He was like, you would have a better fit, uh doing more pop reggae stuff because like the police was hitting and sort of using that together. So, uh, what they call the Compass Point uh trilogy is her three albums Nightclub and uh, Live My Life, You Nipple to the Bottle of pull Up to the Bumper, all those songs that you know Grace Jones for we're.

Recorded there just love spring learned something new every hour.

Okay, I know it's it's not classy for an engineer to tell, but there has to be a heart client like one that just Roji to the limit. Yes, there's hardly any records that I feel that you had bad results in. But everything could have been a sunny journey from eighty.

No. No, there was one where I was just mixing his record. It's not good to tell you, but I'm going to tell you that. He comes in and uh, he says, all right. He puts his feet up on my desk, right right on the console. Now I'm like, okay, you know, grow, as we grow wiser, you get to understand how different people, you know, tick And by doing this, he was going to show me he was in control. That's what That's what you know. All the body language

See you okay. Can I just ask one question? That was one time I did this. Can I ask one question? Does this artist go buy three names? Doesn't go by three names?

He went by one name? Quest Love.

Oh.

It was really a great story with Trent I Terrence yeah, I mixed and I did some extra production on If You Let Me Stay. And when I was first being introduced to him, Lincoln Clap was the I mean, not Lin Lincoln Oh is his last name? Oh, I can't remember. Lincoln was introducing me. He was the A and R for for Terrence, And so he introduces me to him at a club and he goes, you know, hey, Terrence, this is Michael Brower. He's gonna be working on your record. And he goes, ah, so this is the guy who's

Some of my twenty one Jump Street, you know, And he was just like okay, all right, you.

Know, I said, all right, well we'll think about it now, and that was you know, and then eventually I did it. But I was like, man, if you're starting off on the wrong foot like that, it's not about an ego that I've been down this road, you know. And then you go, oh, I hope not, I hope I don't screw up your record. No, I'm going to do a good job, you know.

But in the eighties, wasn't everyone arrogant, wasn't everyone at now Whole? And wasn't everyone at Diva, And wasn't no what no, damn I didn't work started getting polite now like I do.

Back then, you had to deal with.

Cocaine on your your your soundboard, and well yeah there was a lot of but they were usually too burned out to, you know, to be an asshole. So you ended up doing the Hardline album the introduced Tennis Trent Derby's Yeah but just one if.

You let Me stay.

Yeah, that was a voice I wanted to ask you about since we're talking about the eighties, not to bring it up with the Coco now, but Angela Beaufield, who is a voice that's not spoken about a lot. Do you I'm guessing you were to recorded engine?

What was what was Sasion?

Did you track the entire too tough record?

No?

Just the song? Yeah? Okay? Mixed? Or or track just mixed? Ah damn okay, because I wanted to ask.

A person, That's what I was asking unsung. But the music was remarkable.

Yeah, yeah, so can I ask a question? Yes?

So, So back back in the times that we're talking about, which is I guess is the eighties right now, a lot of the artists and presumably other people associated like maybe label people would show up to the mix and have input always And can you talk about how that's changed nowadays for somebody like yourself.

Well, now I have to plead I don't even bother anymore to have the artists show up at the mix. Serious, they never show up. It's now down to maybe ten. It kind of went the way of analog tape.

Good speakers, because now we're judging from our computers and our iPhones.

You know, it's just a different time. I mean, it's just the way it is.

Who was the last artist that was interested in their mix process?

I cannot see them not do it. Bon Jovi, he was there every day. I mean, to me, I'm always amazed when they don't want to show up. It's their album, but they they're scheduled to appoint point where they've got there on tour, there rehearsal, or they've they're you know, they or they're not given the budget to fly over what you're saying Coldplay and John Mayer and none of

Plus plus a lot of these artists trusts him where they don't need to be there the entire time and can he sends them mixes and they approve them and so forth.

Okay, they're not total dickheads, just you're the.

Main and too, I think, well, no, they just put their trust into the visionary there and you have to learn how for that.

So, I mean, if you've been by the time a song comes out to the audience as the artist, you've heard that song a million times. So once it's done and you send it to the mix and engineers, just like, look, take it away.

And at this point as an artist, do you really want to go back to you revisions? Because you are who you are?

That's got nothing to do who I am is that I'm going to be a good listener. Yeah, but but it's my opinion. You know, I'm interpreting it. It's and if it's nailing it exactly the way they want, then we're good. If it isn't, then we do revisions until it's right.

Okay, So I'm going to try to not rapid fire question, but just in general, because again, your discography is way too extensive to go through everything. So what three songs of yours that you've tracked a mixed just gives you absolute positive like goosebumps, like and I mean filler hits whatever, like just like I captured magic in a bottle, and well these three represent me.

I would say house is not a home with Luther wait side question was that was it? Was it tracked to a click track?

Because I always wanted to know how he nailed the stealing love, Stealing loves without Dowell it live with his band?

No, there was no and it was done before the strings came in. He do you hear when he's holding that note and is like a little dip. That's his heart rate, that's his heart going. You hear that little drop. Yeah, that was just him holding it. That was that was the take. And he's just holding it. And then everybody's watching him, you know, NAT's watching and then wow, downbeat.

And so after they tracked the music, he didn't come back like a week later and say I think now that vocal take just a little bit better.

None of those songs, none of those vocals were redone. Those were all from the rhythm tracks. It's crazy, you know, from the basics, because he would also he would also he would do he would do a tour of.

Radio stations and have the TV track of that stuff and actually sing live in the studio. I've heard like maybe four different versions of a house is not a home, various places across the unit, and he nails all those gaps and pauses like yeah perfectly. And I'm thinking, like, is he like okay thirteen seconds here?

No, It's just I feel just feeling and what what we used to do a lot too. Is. I was really into throwing a delay on his voice, you know when you go WHOA. Well, I would do that when we were recording, and so he and I would just be playing back and forth and he would never know when I'd throw, you know, a delay on it. But eventually as he's recording, you know, I'd throw a delay in and and he would answer the delay. So I was always printing the delay, but he would just he

It's no on YouTube vic he's in a Yamaha, but uh, his signature stare snare that he used on it's no, I don't know what it is.

I assumed it was a Yamaha, but it's not. No, it's some percussion company. Why can I ask why so deep with the snare tones? Why it sounded good? Is that simple? You know? It was just nice to have it real fat. And then lou there ever tracked the song with like a tight snare and you guys are like, eh, nah, it doesn't work. I don't think it ever occurred to him.

Do you wish you could recall and just do again that you're still not satisfied with?

I don't. I never get never felt that way. Really, Yeah, there wasn't. When I was done, I was done.

Most most first singles are like the last song done, like I need one more song and then that's the time pressure or whatever.

Like I it's not to say that they couldn't have been better, but I just never I just never thought that way. I was like, we're done, let it go, move on.

He doesn't want to say because somebody's gonna ask for their money back.

Well, I just I felt really good when I was done, when I walk away and say okay next and if it if it needed to be recalled and it was better, I was like, Wow, I didn't think of that. Who else do you do you like that? Mix engineers do you admire? Oh, I've got a lot of fans. I love Manny It's a good buddy of mine. Yeah, America

That technology has has completely changed from what it was thirty four years, thirty or forty years ago when you first started. So now people pretty much can do everything on their laptop.

You know, I'm fine with it as long as they call me to mix it. Now they're mixing on their laptop too. Yeah, well, I mean, but that's where it. They can do everything on their laptop, and then when it comes down to the mix, it's like it could be better. How do you think feel about modern engineering?

Now as far as like mixes are concerned, Like, are you like everything was better with analog?

Like? No, it still comes down to the pilot. You know, you're gonna have great engineers, you're gonna have really terrible engineers. And that's never changed. Even in analog days. You got really really crappy tracks that you'd have to work extra hard, and then you get other guys who are just incredible and you just put the tracks up and you're like, mix is done. It's just fantastic, you know. And and as far as analog desks, I mean, I'm moving away

What was the transition like when like moving I guess, I guess it's maybe in like late nineties when the game started transitioning front analog to pro tools and two computers.

What was it like then? How did you make that switch? It wasn't difficult, it was well, I still treated when it went from analog to digital. The first thing I noticed is that there was a lack of tightness in the music now, and I didn't know why. I just thought, well, twenty four track analog just must sound, you know, just sounds way better, and digital doesn't. It turned out to be that it's the clock the clock that ties all

So I what's your opinion on soft two versus waves?

You know? Hard? And yeah, really hard anyway? So uh.

So, so the last ten years approximately, you've you've been an electrical lady.

Uh.

In the studio eight years? Eight years going on nine, I think, okay.

In the Studio B, which is the legendary Purple room with the purple SSL in the thousand.

And great sounding. It was one of the first first ssls in New York City and it's it got totally refurbished and it just has a great punch to it, great sound. And uh and and now you're moving on to your building, your own place. Now. I'm having place built for me, yes, which I'll be moving in to next year. That's right.

I'm happy.

Going to miss it electrically, of course, I'm going to miss electrically. I'm gonna miss everybody there. I'm gonna miss Lee, you know, I'm gonna miss the vibe. But you know, it's I'm excited by this is you know, it's another another phase. Wait answer me this.

I have rats ever run in Studio B because just mice my last day. No, no, and I still say that was a rat, not a mon. I've never seen mice, and I've never seen ghosts.

Okay, my sister has. He's been totally freaked out by by a ghost. Who there's a there's a ghost. That name is Jimmy. It's not Jimmy. It's some some guy, don't Everybody describes him the same way, some guy with a beard.

An electric lady electrically because when we were there, Jimmy the kat was Jimmy, Like was that ghost Jimmy Catt is no longer.

With this and he did not have a beard actually, just a very overall Yeah. Yeah, maybe I don't know.

I've never seen him, so, but you know, I'll look at Steve or other assistants before him, who just have this look on their face.

They're not They're not kidding. You know. Somebody just walked by and they thought it was me and I had already gone. I believe it's on it. But the only thing that I've experienceds is on one piece of gear. I've got two really big knobs is on a shadow hill and you'd have to literally, yeah, you'd have to literally fall into it sideways to turn the knob. And I had just left the room and I came back in and I played the mix and it's completely whacked.

Jumped on the jump on the console, and the cat turn on all the The.

Cat jumped on the console and actually clicked a button.

And santed twice as good as my mix.

Yeah, he jumped on the console and actually walked on the board and clicked something and then walked away. And we all looked at each other like, holy shit, that I believe that Jimmy Hendrix is still trapped in that studio somehow.

Did you, I want to ask, did you do the did you record and mix Viva Levita. The co player just mixed most of the record too. It wasn't I didn't do the whole record. Okay, did you just Strawberry Swing? Yeah? I love that song. That was awesome, great job on that. I about to ask Joe Santorini questions. Oh oh about the lawsuits. I was in the Grammy audience.

The day that they won an award for that, and him and his lawyers were trying to chase them with the subpoena. So it was like watching that, remember like those old Keystone literally like the Cold playing their whole cat, their whole management team like running down the isisland and Joe and his lawyers are running the other way, and they're like chasing each other, trying to serve papers.

Dang, oh you mean with the Yeah, you know, look, I've known these guys from the beginning. They were physically running that. That was just one hundred percent coincidence here

Well, we're filing them for coming on the show today in school and that's about about sound and craft.

Thank you Michael for coming on. Thank you for the pleasure. Any other last minute.

You guys face Like okay, on the Parachutes album, did you mix You're a Big Man.

Man politics?

That was that whole first album? Like that was just okay, did you mix the song Parachutes?

The one was him the whole record, but but one song was Shiver? No I mixed up. I think actually the first two songs I mixed for them was Shiver and Yellow.

Shiver, in which one is yellow yellow man. Goddamn yeah, Yeah, I love that record. Did did you do clocks as well?

No?

You didn't mix flocks? Okay, that's the ship I wish I had. Okay, but but did the X and Y record and then a good part of the Viva Livido got to.

Say to the listening audience, if you want to get a real quick headache, go down Michael's list of credits because.

It's much.

Fishbone questions, Fishbone, all.

Right, we're definitely a great record. That was which which fish? Which one? Surroundings? David?

Yeah, okay, line real quick? Uh the line between engineer and producer? Where does that begin and end? And have you ever kind of gone more into the producer?

Yeah? I did production for a couple of years. Got that out of my system real quick. We won't talk about that. Who did you produce? Nobody? You know? I was. I went to England and I did I did some production. I did this one band Animal night Life, and then Icicle Works and Roachford Yeah, yeah, to his first album and the second album, first record first Roachford and.

We can google you know that.

But you know what I realized quickly as a producer, and I was pretty sure of it, and then I confirmed it as I'm not a songwriter. I don't have a melody in my head that came from my own head, right, And to be a great producer, I think you really need to be a songwriter. And so I knew I'd always be limited or restricted to bands who are completely self sufficient, which isn't really realistic. So after a couple of years, I like, the best I'm gonna do is be average on this and I and then I really

Did you make that record? Did you do that off the off ghost Stories? No, you didn't mix Thatkay? Did you do anything on that on that record? Okay, you didn't do that. Okay, Okay.

Unpaid from because he has a gazillion Okay anything else?

You worked on the Gwynn Guthrie Patlock record?

Yes, that was. That's when I worked with Sli and Robbie and I did it a compass point? Did you have any introduced that I did not know that? Did you work with Larry Lvan on the mixes at all? Or No? I mixed that. I think it was with Sline Robber, seventh Heaven they came back. Yeah, seventh seventh Heaven. Yeah, miss.

Oh my god, do you even know how kind of like that that uh that one sim stab is at the top of that's all. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah.

I mixed that in studio way at media sound Jesus, but I recorded that and it was, you know, it was a trip being there because you know, you'd be on the beach and then around twelve o'clock, one o'clock, everybody show up a studio and start recording.

And I was gonna say it's it's got pictures of that.

I don't think like to be in that comfort zone.

I think that's bad luck. It distracts everybody. It might be relaxing, but it might be too relaxing. Well, it was I'd rather be uncomfortable and cold in the studio and focused.

Than like yeah, but the whole vibe was laid back. There was a whole lot of smoke going on that It was size of cigars and I'm not smoking, so you know, I get.

Waitin Since his rapid fire last minute questions the BBQ ben oh yeah, on the beat, did they just say like, look, we want to sound like chic or like, what's was there any connection?

Well? Like was it the same guy from Change was behind? Well, hold on a second, Hold on a second. How that record was done is we went to Italy and we recorded sixteen songs. We recorded sixteen songs, the rhythm tracks on all of them. Right then we came back to New York and he split it in two and called one Change and the other one called BBQ, and then put lead vocals. You know, at that point Luthor didn't sing on that. He was they Fred Peatrice had had

Song.

He never recorded, well, he would have, except that that Petrice didn't want to give him a royalty, so he said, well, I'm not going to sing on this record. So then we spent three weeks trying to find a singer that sounded like Luthor. It was just so you got everybody coming in there trying to sing like Luthor. It was like, oh my god. But we ended up with Crabs Robinson

No?

No, no BBQ. I did one BBQ. I was just one okay, the first one. Okay, Okay, we really got to wrap up, guys. Yeah, because you did Private Eye, right, did you mix that?

No?

You didn't mix. I mixed, I can. I mixed some of the singles. I mixed, uh one on one you can do. Those were remixes. Those are the ones that went R and B radio. Oh.

So the album version is different than the single that you met.

Yeah, okay, I understand the twelve inch fatter drum version of I can't go for that. But I love just the teenty toy sound of the album version. Yeah, I love it, but I get it now. So you you were there to boost up the mix, Okay, I see anything else, Ladies and Joe, Okay, the cold Play.

You're fired. You said that, like Mark.

Stay on the graffiti, we didn't like, Okay.

You did everything.

We have Bossville, Babelle and Finn, Tickeolo and Laya and Sugar Steve this quest love signing up Michaels.

Thank you very much for coming. We'll see you all the next go around. Love Supreme, h West.

Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.