QLS Classic: LA Reid Part 2

Questlove Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. What's Up?

This is Sugar Steve from Questlove Supreme. Anybody who knows this podcast is well aware that our interviews can last for hours, so often we split them into two parts.

It also gives listeners.

A suspenseful reason to come back next week or check their podcast feed for more episodes. Back in twenty twenty two, we sat down with la Reid for what became a rare three part interview. In part two of La Read's comprehensive interview at Questlove Supreme, he recalls working with the Whispers, Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson. Please rate, like, and subscribe to this on your podcast feeds, check back for new episodes, and follow our new YouTube page at QLs.

This is a question that I tried to asking Jimmy jam and I still wasn't satisfied with the answer. Now, I owned Eyes of a Stranger. I mean, I've owned all your records. But when Eyes of a Stranger came out, and I always have this question, I will ask you.

I will ask that s O s Ben.

I will ask boys to men, how bold do you have to be in order to start your first three songs on the album with ballads, especially in this mind state where you're like we got to grab them by the collar right in your mind, you were like, two Occasions is so damn tef line, we better open with this joint, Like, are you guys not thinking?

I gotta look at the track list and if the.

First records the first record on.

The list, let me see some eyes.

With my eye, like literally.

And they back to back. That's interesting.

And the thing is the way the way that I see records and building records and like the drama and the up and like two Occasions to me was always either the fourth song on side a wow, the second song on side to y'all. To me, it's almost like opening thriller with human nature.

I can't believe.

I just this doesn't make sense to.

Me, I think in terms of albums, and this also explains why you have way more hits than I do.

Right, No, I think that's a reseequence.

Man, Okay, you have you have the actual vinyl or cassette or something, because not there, I don't expect you to have it there.

But I'm saying.

I can't believe that. I thought, can you dance was the first song on the album.

Hang on second, I'm now checking on the street.

Well on Apple Music it is yeah, you' all right, it's one and two and can you dance?

This is five?

Yeah, that's what came. Okay, it's the record and.

Well, I mean obviously worked because I think when anyone thinks of the deal, it two occasions and at that it's.

Right a rush. All right, all right, so this is that wasn't even our first single.

Hold up?

What was what was the person? Two occasions was?

Well, damn sure it was to shoot him up?

No, no, hold, I'm gonna tell you. Okay, where's that album?

Where's that album? Is a stranger? Okay? Why he's looking for it? This reminds me, shit, man, you're right again. Hold up now I'm on discouds looking at it. It's straight up.

Yeah, well this is But listen, and this really brings about full circle because when I don't know if you remember this conversation, like you the day that Things Fall

Because that's the same I heard that already. Yah, y'all heard that one.

Yeah, making them listening to it Okay.

Y'all would have never gotten through the rest of the record to see who we were before we got you.

But you did the opposite of what LA did.

Wow. I know, but that's that's why he's La.

Stop now maybe kind of open when you got.

I swear I don't remember. I really don't remember.

But the only logic that I can come up with is put the hits up front.

That's the only thing I can think of, is put the hits up front.

Right.

But we put out Yeah, we put out can You Dance? And we thought we kind of gotten it right, Okay, we got it right now, now we got it. This is better than this is better than material things. Sonically, it's better. Got a right engineer. Tom's not over shadowing everything, you know, And it didn't work at all we got nowhere, and then Dick Griffy came.

And this is what Dick stepped in.

He said, he says, comes to the studio, play me all the records. He's mean about it too, like that's like that, I played me all the records, like sick of you, you know, because because by the way, I forgot to tell you I picked another stiff, not a stiff, but Babyfaces first solo album was called Lovers and I Love You, and I know I.

Picked you make Me Feel brand New to cover that's the same. And when that came out before I Love You Baby yeah, yeah, and I remember that and it was cute, but that was me thinking that that I didn't know.

And Dick Griffy was like, you just you just think you know everything, don't you. I mean, that's how we talked to me, like let me tell you them. This is my record company and this is my studio, and we're doing that no more.

So he picked the hits, all the wrong songs I picked.

I picked You Made Me Feel brand New for Babyface, and I picked can We Talk for the Deal?

Both wrong comes back and picks two occasions and shoot him up movie movies.

He gave me that song. Wow, he gave me the song another guy.

It's the only time my band ever did a song that we didn't write or co write. He gave me that song and said, this might be good for you. So Kenny and I went and we produced it. But did you like his song? I did like it. I liked it, liked it, but my band hated it.

Wait, which, what are we talking about?

Movies? Like the cover Shoot Them Up Movie?

Wait?

Who did the cover? Did the cover?

Bobie Dick from on No Limit Records? He he covered Shoot him Up movies and like nine Yeah lit the movie you love wanted to be.

Cleared by the way.

We only did.

We did it because Dick wouldn't make He wouldn't let us have music videos.

He said we weren't pretty enough.

So really, so I figured if I'm due to occasion, I mean, I'm not too occasional. We do Shoot them Up movies, which is a song he gave us.

Maybe we might get a music video. Y'all have not done music videos.

We don't have no music videos. Yeah, but everybody else on the list. Charlama had the music videos and.

The weirdest music videos of all time. Right, but we don't care videos. We're so their videos were so off kilter, man.

But y'all are so pretty. That's so odd.

All right. So here's the deal.

I'm gonna ask you a question as a CEO about your artist self and hopefully because I think you're one of the first major CEOs we had on the show and I needed explained to me, like I'm a twelve year old okay, now, an out of the box hit like two Occasions. Now as a person who has not had a lifespan, and I'm talking about myself as a singles artist, you know. I mean, I've had many top ten albums, you know whatever. I make my living on

Spread that way or was the solar muscle again.

I'm not gonna give up until I get it Dick Griffy's story behind.

It to make it a hit.

Okay, So what I think poor is.

It a meet you halfway thing? Give us a song we could work with, and then we'll ram it.

I am shamelessly commercial.

Let me just put that out there, right, I'm you and I are opposites in that regard, like I am. I am like so singles oriented like like, especially like the first two songs I picked or Stiff's, so I became like I'm gonna get the singles thing down right.

So I before let me interrupt you real quick, and I want to use this opportunity to actually the spell a myth. Okay, I am not anti singles. I actually no, no, I don't think anti single anti and I is good. I will freely admit. I mean this might be captain obvious to you know, Fonte, whatever is I think for half the people that just pose like a man, I ain't with that bubblegum pop shit.

It's I believe that pop songs.

Are the hardest things, right right, you give me a free jazz song, I'll knock that shit. It'll be on the next Robert Glasper record, you know, instantly. But I don't know, you know, And I think since I've put in twenty thousand hours of DJing hard DJing between the last Roots album, yeah, now there's like nine years of that, I'm I'm hyper aware of what songs work and don't work that I didn't have in my first Now, I guess my job is to not make it so.

You know, now that I know the secrets or the codes.

Or whatever, to figure out how to nuance by none and not just make it like okay, now that I know we need hit singles like, I know what our fan base expects of us. However, I just want to say that I'm not anti pop because I did.

I think it's you know, kid music. I just never knew how to.

Do it right, right. I completely get that. Listen I have.

This may be a fair or unfair comparison, but first version of Cooling the Gang and then the pop version Opion right they made they made too Hot and all those songs they were great, But I hated that band like I loved the original.

But how do you feel now about looking back as an executive looking back on it.

But that was me.

That was me before record companies, before anything. It was just a preference. I'm like, y'all soft, that's soft, like, that's like what is come on? What's Hollywood swinging? And those crazy intros in the like those are just songs. I didn't like it at all. Right now, I understand the difference. I still prefer the first version of.

Cool in the gang.

So what I'm saying is you and your band can't really afford to do it. Man, If y'all really, if y'all really did it.

Like what happens is that you disappoint a lifetime of fans, and no matter how you feel about it, at that point, maybe for the first time, you're going to be really criticized for trying to get hit.

So it's that is it will be the first time because.

But you're you're so successful at what you do that that would be a mistake.

My opinion is that that would be a mistake, right unless it will.

Completely organic, completely like nothing changes except this song just happened to catch, right, But because if you give anything to to if you look like you're trying, you can't do that like you're you're you're a savior, you could you can't do that.

I'm not doing that.

However, I am so aware that, wow, we never We've had grooves, but we never had a melody line.

There's never a part of the song that you can whistle and it sticks with you.

That's not true. And also, isn't there a gray in there?

Isn't it a fact then that maybe y'all were just missing an la ear when it comes to singles, because for me, as the radio girl listened to all these records that y'all put out, at times, I just felt like y'all didn't hear the single, y'all put out the wrong song, like what about the gray?

And there?

As of this conversation two days ago, I'm talking right now from New Orleans. We just did the Essence Festival and for the first time we've played with Little Kim, and.

Of course the subject of Lighters Up comes up now.

For those that don't know, Little Kim's Lighters Up song was a root song.

That I don't know.

Love Supreme Hill answer Scott.

All I can say was, when Tarika and I went to Florida, we made lighters up. We took a three hour dinner break by the way, having dinner with O. J. Simpson, a bust of rhymes. Long story, yeah, long story, come back to the studio, finish the music of what you.

Know is Lighters Up.

Came back, you know, pretty confident, like, hey, we're gonna have a good first single for our Tipping Point record. And next thing, I know, like a month later, I hear that song with Little Kim on it, and I was just like, what the fuck? O Wow, Scott, Well, I mean, no, Scott obviously gave it to Kim, but.

Oh, Scott stores you know original root. Scott was the roots. Yes, yeah, so.

Even then, My whole point was that, And you know, we joked about it, like, you know, this is our song first or whatever.

She was surprised.

She's like, she like, I heard you play drums on it, but no, I if you remember and do the right thing when Samuel Jackson does the Senior Love Daddy the all thing, Yes, if you listen to that music in the background, I was do the right thing was on in the break room, and I remember that. I was like, hey, let me see if I can make a song without a snare and just with high hats and symbols. That's what I was. Wow, that's what I was making. Then Scott put piano on top of it, and it was like,

Ever, let anybody else help pick a single?

Rich was brilliant too, Yeah, definitely, but.

Just got made it up to us by doing don't say nothing. But then that's when our fan base sort of clap back, Like I thought, don't see nothing with Quebla because I like the fact that Treek was saying something nonsensible.

Here's my take on it. There's two kinds of stars. There's the artist and there's the song. Right, songs can be stars, right, and artists can be stars. And when the two collide, you get with In Houston, I don't know, right, you get you know, the big whoever you might like Michael Jackson, you know, but sometimes the artist is the star, but not necessarily the song. And sometimes the song is a star, but not necessarily the artist. Big facts, right,

There's many of those, but there's also there's also very very talented artist Tory Amos.

You don't know if you listen, a hit maker, but she's incredible, right, and you know, and and there are others, you know. But so I separate the two. That's how I That's how I look at it.

So do you think that the industry as it is now makes space for those kinds of artists? Do you think there's a space for those artists to exist, like on major labels where it's like, Okay, you may not have the hit record or the TikTok song that is going off, but you just are an amazing artist, and I think there's an audience for that.

You're not gonna like my answer.

I'm trouble, and I got a tag on top of Fante's question. My answer to that is not if you no.

Hit, that's that's that's that's true.

If you if you got a hot garage band that don't make his don't no problem.

We'll just put you on the road. Just stay on the road un till you.

Get a hit, or you better be the band that's on a label that believes in that, which definitely and literally I don't even know if I told people this. The only reason why The Roots lasted that long is because it was in our contract. If you have album number one, we have to make three albums. If you have album number four, we have to make three albums. If you have album number seven, you have to make so we couldn't get dropped. That was the only way that we never got we would have gotten dropped.

Otherwise.

Wait, I have to ask this because I heard all right, so post and I'm so jumping ahead in the future. But since you brought it up, I believe the story that was told to me was back when I think this was eighty not eighty, This was either nineteen ninety nine or two thousand. I believe you guys signed an artist named Stephanie Jerreman Nada to the label, who that would have been probably a little later than that, probably.

Six. Okay, all right. My whole point is that.

The Fiona Apple incarnation of Lady Gaga was, to my knowledge, on a deaf jam artist, or she was signed to the label, and.

Yep, I signed her.

Right, what do you see in that artist that later morphed into what we know.

Now The day she came in.

She plays rock and roll piano, first of all, and she's incredible at it.

And she came in and she had on the white Go.

Go boots and and she was like justroducing the piano. I mean, you know, she gets in it, she's inside the keys, right, thank you.

Right, I'll say that.

But you know, Tori Amos, that's what I saw in her prime show. Yeah, that's what I saw, and I thought she was incredible. And I remember saying to her that, and she reminded me of this, because my memory is not that good. She told me that in that room. I told her that she would likely change music. That's how passionate I was. So we signed her and then they started to bring me demos. And when I heard the demos, like, I didn't hear that same thing that

And I let her go before we ever released the record.

And then she found Acon Red One and ultimately Jimmy Ivy and she put out Just Dance and it started blowing up in Canada.

I was watching it because I didn't want to be embarrassed.

I was like, that's just Canada. Then I started seeing it blow up in Miami. That's just Miami, that's just the clubs. Then it started blowing up in the Bay. Then it charted man and then god god, I was like, you stupid.

You feel like wow yo?

So okay, So question so in that situation and your role as an executive, how much of it is putting out or putting out things that you like versus a record may come to you and it's like, Okay, I personally don't like this, but I know that it will work with this audience.

Like how much of it is like your personal taste versus the market.

It's a little bit of both.

First of all, I will stand even in that case I clearly blew it. But for the most part, I'll stand by other people that work at the label. If they say they're passionate about something, I'll give it a shot. It doesn't have to just be my thing, right, But if it's something that I signed, that I personally endorsed, then I want to feel good about it. In those cases, I'm kind of listening to me, right, But I just blew it, Man, I just completely blew it.

I have to appreciate. But here's the thing I appreciate about this story. We've had three artists on the show that told us the story of where it wasn't working out with their label staff right, and and instead of just being like, you know what, you're right, let's let's let's call it the other day and let you go, I learned that the label will sometimes just freezing artists out just to avoid the embarrassment.

In case that happens, Yes.

For sure, people hold on. They don't want to be wrong or they don't want to make a decision. But I don't respect that like I'd rather like, listen, I blew it, and I tell you I blew it, and and while it while it, it pains me and it's embarrassing.

I'd rather live in that truth than to.

Have shelved her and just made her keep going back and going back and going back when I knew I didn't like it.

I didn't like it.

It wasn't for me, right, So if it's not for me, perhaps she could have a life somewhere else. And I'm actually okay with that, as embarrassing as it is.

How different was the music that she presented to you? How different was it than what she presented.

To the world.

It was very different because if you know her, you know she's diverse and she could do many things. And the kind of music she made on the first album and a little bit on the second album, she's never revisited that. So she's clearly able to do a lot of different kinds of music. And it wasn't that was like like dance pop or that's what I called it, you know, it wasn't ediom yet or no, it wasn't

Didn't feel like it.

All right, we gotta get back at the time Machine because I'm not trying to coll.

Well.

I want to know what touring with the Deal was like across the States as opposed to just you guys being in one environment as a club band.

Like your first, your first touring.

Oh my god, our first the first show we had as the Deal with body Talk as a hit, we opened for the DeBarge and Luther.

Vandros Oh that sounds familiar, life changing moment.

Right.

First show is at uh in Indianapolis at Market Square Arena. So now now we have a band that's gone from playing club that could barely hold two hundred people to Market Square Arena and we hit that stage and we would open the act. So we got a line check but not a sound check. And I like to use that as an excuse why we were so bad.

But we were horrible.

I mean were so horrible when we got off stage, like we didn't even you know, we're supposed to be excited.

That's our first show is.

In a big arena and a major tour, and we should have been like really happy, and excited and slapping each other five and and having a celebratory moment. But we were really embarrassed by it. Uh, we didn't have we were not built for that big stage. We didn't know what we were getting into. And and we overdid our We overdid our our gimmick too much, makeup, too much.

Everything for all the cities or for certain cities.

No, this was just this one show.

So the show is.

Over and I'm in the hotel room. My road manager, his name is Leon Burnett, wonderful man. He comes, Dick Griffy wants to talk to you. I'm like, oh, and I don't remember the conversation that well, but I remember being a little bit frightened and not threatened, but warned if we come out like that again, we're off the show.

And I remember him saying something.

About Sylvester, right, like we don't want no more Sylvester's we don't want to know something like that.

Like it was something like that.

And anyway, we cleaned up our act and the next night we were a lot better. Right, But the first night, man, we blew it so badly. It was just really bad. And then we got a little used to it. Luther embraced us, El debarsed embraced us, and we all kind of became friends. And then they started, you know, we got treated a little bit better, and we got better and we had some nights when we actually really caught a good rhythm.

But I've heard stories of Luther's restrictions. Again, I'm also a good friend with a friend of the show is Sheep Gordon, who would say, how ain'tal retentive.

Luther was with the lights you can use or the colors you can wear.

Yes, we never heard about colors.

Definitely the lights and how many channels on the mixing console.

And things like that.

But like Luther and I were buddies, you know, and and Kenny because like he has so much respect for Kenny as a songwriter, because we used to give Luther demos when we were on the road. Uh So we just kind of built a relationship and we never felt like there was a lot of restrictions there. As a matter of fact, he wouldn't even make us leave backstage. He would let us state, you know, because there used to be this when the superstar comes out of the dressing room.

All.

Right.

Now it's definitely still happens one of those people is going to jail for thirty years. But he used to do that all the time, right, it was the same.

But Luther didn't do that to us. He let us hang right and oh, did you.

Know the drummer? Yes? I own a snare drummer? You do. I got lucky someone had.

I'm sorry sidebar? How good was he?

Like? I want to know what you thought? I loved your guests.

Actually one of the very first instructional one of the first instructional drum things. I used to my teacher used to make me watch Yogi did one before he passed away?

Wait, can I ask? Did he pass away while on tour?

Yes, but not that tour.

Were you guys on the tour or we.

Weren't on the tour that he passed away on It was two years later, okay.

I always wanted to know how how did Luther recovered? Like finding another drummer and that sort of I wasn't.

Around, but we were on the tour when Marvin passed away. We were on tour with Luther when Marvin passed. I remember us having a prayer moment backstage, completely quiet. Everybody on the tour holding hands and Luther. Yeah, it was really it was really moving. It was really something. Luther was really torn, right, all of us were. I didn't know Marvin personally, but obviously was touched by his music.

Oh really it was really special, really special.

The reason why I'm asking you about tour life is because I know eventually you're going to morph into just production, which of course means that you're going to have to leave the band in your mind? Is it like, okay, there has to be something else other than this, Like where's the point where suddenly the wheels are turning and you're like, okay, we have to be a team, we have to write hits? Like how does that happen for me?

It was.

We enjoyed being on the road. I enjoyed it. On the very first tour that we did and the second album, as we talked about material, things didn't work, so we didn't have as much work, but we still did some some gigs here and there.

We worked, and then the third album took a while.

So between our second album and the third album, we started to develop as songwriters.

And producers a little bit better, and.

Because the second album wasn't a success, we.

Had a little more time on our hands.

So when we went back to do the tour with two occasions, I was over it, like seriously was over it, like before the tour started.

And because I couldn't play anymore, man, I lost.

I didn't.

I don't know what happened, but maybe I started thinking about it or I don't know, but something got into me and I just couldn't play anymore. And my hands were hurting, like I felt like I had arthritis in my hands, and I just I lost it.

I mean at.

Sixteen, I thought I was really good, you know, at twenty one, I thought I was really good. And by my mid twenties, man, it just started to go away and really never got it back. So like I, I still have this, and that didn't upset you, Yes, it really upset me except one thing. I took that drum machine, and I'm a master that thing I was.

I was like, I don't care who you are, Jimmy jam Teddy Riley, I'm challenging anybody.

I could do this better than anybody, right, And so I switched what was your choice.

I have every drum machine they made, Man Drum, the DMX, the eight Away everything.

For me, I have to say, you do you do have a trademark. It's I don't know how you did it or why you did it, but I noticed it. Every fourth, maybe every eighth class, you will put extra emphasis on the refer right, like.

Some class would be normal. I got that from Jimmy Jam.

I straight stole that from Jimmy Jam because control bom right and I loved it so much, so it was really Jimmy's signature.

I borrowed it with friends.

But every it wouldn't be every clap, it would be everyone. It was strategically placed.

And for me, when I think of the sound of classic, like when I think of Jimmy, Jame, Terry Lewis, it's like the sound of the classic gate Away, right, the sound that old boy who produced loosenslly oh, Nick Marnelli, that's right, that's right, five star like anything that sounds like Jam and Lewis, Like that's their trademark.

But for you, it's always.

Right to this day, like no one has mastered that level of gated reaverb better man than you did.

But was that. Okay, you say you took it.

From him, I mean, but still, you know, we learned from each other and then you know, you're in bella ship and do things with it.

But but I would spend hours.

Hours and hours and hours and hours playing with those drum machines and playing with rhythms and taking Kenny's keyboards and muting them and putting them through filters and playing. I just played with the sound, you know, a lot, and that became my new passion. So that and a lot of that was because, by the way, I never

Hey, you know what it's called for, right I was. And then I heard you and then I was like, oh, get out.

I remember I heard about new record. I was like, yo, my son telling me. I was like, I was like, who is that?

And then I read about your Rolling Stone magazine and with your dad and all think I'm gone from me anyway, So can you talk to us about the conversation that leads to you and Kenny like really making this official? Who was the first outside non deal artist that the La and Babyface that we know of.

Let's see, the very first one was when we officially did it together. That would have been the whispers rock Steady, Yeah, rock Steady. That's when we did it together and they hired Kenny. They called Kenny, they didn't call both of us, and Kenny said, I have to have La with me, so he pulled me along.

Okay, right, And.

It was really special.

It was really good.

Looking out and we had a comfort level working.

But Kenny was obviously really famous and at Solar as a songwriter more so than like the two of us, you know, and because of Yeah, that's kind of what happened, and we went in, we made rock Steady and then it became official.

You know, did you know there was a pop hit or immediately did it become about it?

No?

I knew it immediate, I swear to you.

I did.

Like when what when we were writing it? I knew when we were we were in an apartment on we lived on Highland Avenue in Hollywood, and when we were writing it, I had a really good feeling about it. But then when we got in the studio and we laid it down and we put the Whispers on the background vocal before they sang lead. I remember, I'll never ever forget that moment. I was like, oh my god, this is a smash. I knew it, and people in

It was just something special going on in that room, and we knew it right.

Uh.

And then when you know, Scottie and walk from the Whispers put their vocal on it, they just that was icing on the cake. But I swear to you I already felt it was a hit. And that goes back to your other question, like our.

Hits manufactured or factored? Is it organic?

I think that it's a little bit of both.

Anytime I see the Whispers sing, both Scotty twins sing in tandem, right, who's doing the singing?

Because that sounds like one verse, it's Scotty.

Scotty is the one, okay, Walter Walter is a lighter version, same same, a very similar tone, very similar, but but Scotty has more power.

Oh so when is it when it's guage time, that's that's Scotty that we know Scotty.

That's Scotty.

Man.

It just gets better with time and Scotty. That's right. Yeah, in the mood, Scotty move, that's Scotty. Okay, Oh wow, Sorry for.

Telling the truth, y'all.

I appreciate it, but I just always wanted to know why when they sing. I've never seen just one person sing that song. It's always both of them together, I.

Know, right, Yeah, that's the show show.

Yeah, that's what that is.

Dick Griffy was that did he re react to when you got that big hit?

Did he say something to you about I was curious because you was hitting some duds, so it's according to him.

Yeah, I don't remember.

I really don't remember it though, because we had another hit at the same time that he wasn't.

Very happy about what girlfriend.

It was called Girlfriend, and it was on and it was on a competing label, m c A, and I felt more. I felt more shade from Dick about doing that than I did. Congratulations for making rock steady, damn.

Yeah. Okay.

As a matter of fact, I remember him coming to visit me once and I was like, Hey, just made this record on Paul.

I do I want to hear No, I actually I don't.

I love you, man, And I don't say that like I'm trying to be protective of reputationally or anything.

Like.

I really loved the man because he was the first record executive I ever met, So the whole idea of being a record executive. I was heavily influenced by him, right and watching him make decisions and kind of how and why, and you know some of the things he would say to me, you know, say it was really it was really a good and he was impressionable.

But we had a really good relationship.

Do you remember I was thinking about this today about Dick.

Do you remember something that you took with you from being with him that you learn and something that you said, I ain't taking that with me when I do what I do.

Wait, as far as.

The things I didn't, if you have to hear you hang somebody out the window, yeah I don't.

I didn't.

If there's a lot I didn't take, okay, you know.

Answer, Yeah, there's there's some things that I definitely, uh took with me. He called me once and he said, let me ask you something. Seem to know everything. Why are you still living in Cincinnati? I said, it's our hometown.

You still living in Cincinnati?

I was living in Cincinnati when we made our first two.

Albums, right, And he said, you can make more money by accident in Los Angeles than you can make on purpose in Cincinnati.

Two weeks I lived in.

La Oh my god, now I know why you why you left? It went to Atlanta. Okay, we're now going that far yet, just in.

That initial period, how are Because the thing is, it's like the deal guys never truly left us, because I see different combinations of their names as songwriter, y or musicians. So how what is what is the adjustment of sort of dissolving the deal and you and you and Babyface starting your own unit and like it is a church and state?

Do you guys have your own management?

Your own Like are you now prioritizing working in the studio with these artists and then the group later?

Like how's how's this working out?

When I think back on it, And maybe I've never thought about it this way, but when I think back on it, I can see how the other members of the group could really be unhappy with the choices that we made, right although they ultimately benefited everybody, in that moment, I could see how the other members of the group weren't very happy because one one of the things was they liked Cincinnati. My other guys and it's still my friends to this day, right, but they liked Cincinnati, and

Was there an opportunity for them to join the fray? Like who's coming with me? Who's coming with me?

Or was it?

Sort of like I think after I'm trying to remember exactly how it took place, but I feel like after the last tour, Yeah, the last tour we did, everybody kind of went their separate ways without a conversation Keny and I. After the tour was over, we decided to move to Atlanta with my was my girlfriend at the time, right, And we all decided and Darryl Simmons, who is Kenny's best friend and a gally really talented songwriter and producer, Yeah,

Other lead singers, they went back to Cincinnati.

Wait a minute, I'm so okay, so worded that you're telling the story, because when I was watching a new addition headline the Essence Festival, I was sitting there just marveling at the fact that the Michael of the group, the leader of the group, really didn't get his moment in the Sun the way that it should have been, right, you know, because even in the way that they craft their show, it's literally like just the best mixtape ever right there, forty years and you know, not not even

I gotta rest my linight right right.

But I was like I was trying to wonder in history, was there ever a case where the lead singers sort of faded in the background while everyone else in the unit got to do that? So I always wanted to know what did what did they do once like in nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety, like, did they try their hand that song?

Righted? Did they try producing?

They made a couple of records as the deal because although we all went our separate ways, they did keep the unit together and they toured some. Uh, they did some dates in Japan, and they did a few dates here and there. They would work on weekends at least that's what I understand. And they went out and found a couple of guys that could do the job, you know, and they worked.

They've been working. But they also they took ninety five jobs.

Yeah, but then D got very lucky because d D D Bristol, he actually is the guy that wrote the chorus I only think of you on two occasions that day and night.

He wrote that, so years later Mariah Carey.

Used it on We Belong Together, so he saw money money still comes in.

Yeah, just in general, between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety one, I mean, god damn.

You.

Had at least like sixty plus hits top forty hits. What is like is what is the not even the division of labor, but just in terms of that much.

Volume, what does your life look like? Right? Yeah?

Like how to me? Are you bespoking these songs? Is it like Jermaine comes to town and you're like talking to him. Okay, here's a song called Don't Take It Personal. You're meeting TLC for the first time. It's like, okay, well let me see a baby baby. Like are these songs sort of like in the stash somewhere in the back and you're like, would you like this?

Would you like this?

Or are you custom making these songs? Some of those songs were custom made? Some of those songs. You gotta remember, first of all, Kenny Evans is one of the most prolific songwriters ever, so he has a war chest of material that's unreal, Like I you know, sometimes I want to call and say, man, let me just go through the tapes, like really, because he's so prolific. That's that's

I think he met her. He might have had that song when I met him.

Seriously, like I remember that long ago, like in the first the first chapter of our relationships as musicians and friends. I remember hearing I'm Ready on a demo, so there was a backlog of material, but then we would work on things. End of the Road was I don't think End of the Road was written for boys to man, but once it was done, it was pretty obvious.

So I knew who to call.

Or I remember, you know, how to match a song to an artist? I don't know I.

Don't really know, but I think that that's what A and R really is. It's artist and repertoire, right, finding the artist and the repertoire to match it when it's particularly when it's people that maybe either they don't write songs, or they collaborate, or they accept outside songs, and we tended to work with people who accepted outside material. We didn't like it that much working with people who could

The deal and whoever was singing was the lead singer.

Right, But it was like every song was I'm your Baby tonight is the deal feature in Whitney Houston. That's how we always looked at right, or my My Mine is the deal feature Johnny gill or you know, because me and Kenny and Ko and Darryll basically played on everything you know or programmed or how we want to look at it.

We created all of the.

Music for it, and we didn't really like tampering. So I remember once we were doing Jermaine Jackson and we we finished some records and then he brought in his keyboard player to like reproduce all the songs, and we were like, what's this and the dudes and and I forget his name. Now he's really talented, but it was just changing everything, and it was it was like, now this doesn't work.

No, no, I said, we'll keep that solo.

We did.

That's the best we could do the rest of it.

You know, at work at Saturday Night Live, whenever comedians stand up comedians host the show, they try to bring their team in to try to write for them right, and it never works. It's always best when you just trust the system and let the producers or let the writers do it. So for that initial gust of Eli face La faced them, what song.

Almost didn't make it? Oh? Man, let me see at least a staple that we know. I don't know.

I think we were way too greedy and ambitious.

Man, we're trying to get everything out, Like I don't I don't recall that one.

I don't have a good answer to that one.

Okay, you guys produced Pebbles, and you also produced Karen White's first record, right, first album, Amazing Results, second album?

Why didn't Karen White?

Now I knew at the time she's dating Terry Lewis. Why didn't you guys work on the second Karen White record?

Or is that a Benny Bendina thing?

Oh No, that definitely wasn't a been anything.

Wait a minute, it was.

Okay, wait wait, let me ask fante. For the life of you, can you sing the first And I know jam Is gonna kill me for this, but even I gotten to admit this. Can you name can you sing the first verse of a Romantic?

No? Dude, do you know that Romantic actually went to number one? Yeah?

I believe that was on the radio hard though.

Wow, Yeah it was number one hop hit.

Yes, look at space right now? Exactly, yeah, exactly, I remember the host exactly.

Y'all all singing the wrong Romantic. My whole point is that, yes, even though they managed to get a number one pop single off that Karen.

White record, there was no impact. I couldn't name no cut for the life of me. And my thing is like, if it's not broken.

Now again, my assumption is she married Terry Lewis, so it's sort of like just bring your husband the workday or whatever.

But I wouldn't.

No, I think it was I think you nailed it, okay, So for entertainment, I have to tell you this story just for entertainment's sake, and I'll go quickly.

No, we love this.

So we're in New Orleans where you are now. There used to be a show called the Budweiser Superfessed. Yes, yes, we're on the tool, thank you, And we're on the package doing our final tour with two occasions, and Pebbles is with us. She's not on the tour, but she's hanging out with me. Her tour ended, she's just hanging

White at the time.

So he invites Babyface and I to the conference.

So we're like, great. So we go to.

The conference and we walk in and it's baby Face Pebbles and myself and I don't know record company politics or anything like that.

Benny comes running over to us and.

Says, I invited you, and I invited you, and he points to Pebbles and he says.

But I did not invite her.

And I'm like, well, if she can't come, then I don't want to be here because and I don't get it. I don't And we turn around and leave, and we and and we fall out, and Ben and I don't speak for a decade, right, wow. And ten years later he told me it was because la I was seating you guys with Karen White and it's her moment and her competition is Pebbles, and you bring Pebbles in and you know, at the same table, like and I was like, oh, I thought you wuld just being an asshole.

I didn't realize I was. I was. I was wrong here.

I didn't know.

I didn't know.

So so I didn't speak to Benny for a decade and we never worked with Karen again.

Yeah.

Wow, finally an answer I'm satisfied with, be cause it's like, why ruin the formula, why ruin the formula exactly?

And we loved working with Karen, like loved it and we had.

Fun doing it.

Right.

She was fun. She could sing.

She had a great tone, great voice, and she was like a real musician type of singer.

You know, she had some you know, she knew music.

She knew about, you know, sliding the family Stone, things that we liked, she knew about. By the way, the end of Superwoman ever so slightly like Purple Rain.

With the strings and the slightly nice the stories. I like, got that.

Okay, So you know we were first introduced to you as kind of solar house producers.

Yes, one how did that phase?

And it almost looked like you had a universal mc A situation about to happen. And then the next thing, I know, everything's happening on Arista. Now when you're doing a roster, when you're when you're producing for these artists, is it a contractual thing?

Are you allowed to do other people or is it like, once you.

Start the Arista phase, you must stick to Aristat and arrist.

Only it wasn't exactly that. It started out that we were solar in house producers for sure, and after after the Whispers took off and the deal and Babyface had his little Silas. We became friends with Lowell and Cheryl Dickerson at both of them and Jeryl Busby. We became friends with the MCA crew and we went over and started helping them. We did the Mac Band for them. One of my favorite songs we ever did was Roses Already Yeah and feel Underrated. It feels like no one

No label CEO is making you guys sound an exclusive contract to stay, which is like it never occurred to Dick Griffy to say, you guys are my house only.

I think I did sign a contract with with Solar for to be an exclusive in house producer, but I never got I never got the money, so I never honored it. Okay, cool, Yeah, you know, Uh, he didn't hold me to it. I didn't hold him to it, and it wasn't for that much money.

Yeah.

So so we worked with with Louis for a while and then Benny Medina called. No, someone called us and asked us to meet Benny Medina. So we went over and we met him and we said who's on your roster? And he named al Chi Role. We were like, nah, Chaka Khan, who was my favorite singer. But I was like, I don't know how we could do any better than

It wasn't universal yet.

It was MCA and Irving azof ran the company and uh Gerald Buzzby had already departed to start Motown to take over Motown, and uh Louiel was still there.

Also, what was Lo Solace Junior? Like just as an executive, a lot of energy.

He knew his records like you know, he was a he was a DJ too, you know. Uh, and he remixed every song that came out, like every single song that came out at that time, he would remix.

He would remix guy records anything.

I thought.

He was just slapping his name on those productions. I didn't realize that he had a crew. We had a team of people.

He had an engineer, he had a programmer, and it was him and he would take all the records that he liked and he would take him in and do the remix of them, you know, And and sometimes they'd be harder when he's done with them, like not every time, but sometimes they would be hard. But he was a lot of fun, really competitive and at that time and in black music in LA they were like these three superstar an R guys. One of them was Liuil Silas Junior. The other one was John McClain who was at A

But Louis was great man. He was fun. He was great, great dude.

At the time.

When I first I think when I heard, uh, Donnie seems to make the announcement that Whitney Houston is going to work with Elien face, I got slightly nervous.

Wow, rightly, because.

The thing is that, you know, the Whitney train was, you know, and I'm not saying anything that that isn't facts.

You know, she definitely it was. It was overkilled.

We all know about the booing up, the Soul Train awards and all those things.

Right, And.

I often wondered if placing her in your hands was almost a setup for a disaster, because the thing is like, the first album sells twelve million, and the second album sells fifteen million, So there's like, in meeting with Clive Davis, is he saying to yourself like, don't fuck up, like

I think that didn't feel pressure, first of all, did not feel any pressure, didn't approach it that way. He was very clear that Whitney had a black problem. So his goal wasn't I want to sell fifteen million. His goal was ingratiate my artists with the black community, please like stand beside her, work with her, because they don't think she's cool, right, And so success was simply black people saying, okay with me.

She need a jam, right, that's all of us.

That's all of us. And so we didn't feel any pressure. And we knew we couldn't. I'm being honest. We knew we couldn't make those kinds of records, like those those big records that she had, Like well, yeah, okay, I get that, you know, like we didn't write like that, we didn't produce like that. I think through a ballot you could have reached those heights, probably right. But my thing is that in that time in nineteen ninety when you jack swing is going GGA and you guys are

And you jack swing them right, But next to the eyes of a Stranger record, I was so confused as to why a shuffle song was her first statement and claiming her throne.

But it worked. Yeah, it was perfect.

Okay, yes, I think it worked because the powers that be made it work. Everyone knew who La and Babyface were. Everyone knew who Whitney Houston was, so it was like.

And it was a great song. Let's be it was a great song. Yeah, yeah, like this ship was a jay okay, but it was just an unusual risky.

Song Okay, all right, risky.

It was risky, like because could DJs have played that in the nightclub like that? That level of shuffle and twelve eight meter was like HARKing back to like Luther Vandroz's bad Boy having a party, which it's more barbarians.

You watch out now, like.

Not every little step, not on our own, not girlfriendad No, No, it's a risk. In the hindsight, I will say it's the best move because I love when risks work. But damn yo, like whoy.

We also you know what else?

It was we had played ourselves out, like not to the public maybe, but we had played ourselves out with that sound, and we we had moved to Atlanta and we were experimenting because we were trying to rEFInd ourselves and we couldn't do the down my heart again. We couldn't do you know, we just couldn't do it anymore, like we had done it so much on so many songs, Like every song had had that that kind of groove on it, and it was it just got tired, you know for us. And so I'm here Baby to Night

That I would have thought Susan would have probably well, if Susan didn't have a direct, proper nown attached to it, I would have thought, like my name is not Susan would have been.

Right, Yeah, But I think that was what she needed.

It reminded me a lot of Jimmy Jam's story of like doing with Janet and like, you know, if was the one on the Janet album, that was the one that was like Janet the gimme just you know go, but that's the way Love Golds was the one that's like, ohle ship, I mean it's you know, it's a different thing, you know, And that's what that was for me.

First, Let's turn it.

Around and to be honest, not to be that radio girl us this old you know logic, but they both sound like more female records like I'm Your Baby to Night, it's way more female, just like Janet.

Yeah, it's just it's just when heard.

And it was like, I was really proud of it.

I was so proud of that record when we finished it, because it was we had never done a shuffle, we hadn't did it with no songs like that, and I was proud of I was just proud of it, and it didn't matter to me.

The success of it.

And I know that sounds like I'm being a little bit frivolous about it, but it was more like, can we tackle Whitney Houston and do something with Whitney that hasn't been done already because we can't do what she's done better than she's done it, So can we do something that's just our take on it? And we did that successfully and I was very happy with it.

And don't even lie, I really do like the drum feels on it.

In hindsight, I think it's a great normalizing. It normalized her, made her relatable and down the earth, and you know, because the joints I liked on the first record were like the Sheep records and that that's what man, and it didn't happen. It didn't have any sugar pop on it, which right, I'm glad. We had a little problem that we never discussed. I never talked to Kenny about it.

But we did Whitney and we did Michael, and our Michael stuff never came out because we couldn't nail it. We spent a lot of time with Michael and we just couldn't nail it. And we spent a lot of time with Whitney and we were able to get a little bit off. But for some reason, those big stars, because that wasn't our thing. Our thing was the artist of our generation. Like that's what we were great at.

We did not nail it.

Now, we got something off with Whitney and we developed an in were out of a relationship with her. That would last for many years, but none of those. It didn't resemble the success that we'd had, not sound wise, not signature wise, not impact wise. And it was the first and you're right because it was the first time that you could criticize whether it was actually the right thing.

And after that we did Michael.

I mean, we couldn't even get out of the studio with a song man. And we knew how to write, and we knew how to produce, but there was something about being in that room with Michael that we just were overshooting it and trying too hard and just could not get any nothing felt natural.

So how hard was it to walk away from the dangerous record knowing that damn we couldn't do it.

We just knew it, Like when we went home, when we left the studio after being in there for a month, and when we were.

Oh wow, it was a month. Yeah, and one song. No.

We attempted to write several songs and he and he recorded, He recorded background vocals on one, never finished it, and he completed one, never mixed it.

The Slave to the Rhythm song right, Slave to the Rhythm.

Yeah, So did anything happen to those other songs that were meant for him.

No, they're just sitting.

There, sitting somewhere. I think they might be in my vault. I think it might be in my vault because that's where I found Slave to the Rhythm that you know, I because we didn't do Slave to the Rhythm with Sony. We did that with Michael. We didn't do it as a higher fight of record label. That was a relationship just between us and Michael. Uh So we all kept we kept our tapes.

So was that a teachable lesson in or make you leary of those A list stars?

Like?

Because I'm certain by that point everybody was calling you like, who did you?

Who would you say no to A list?

Well, Kenny became much better at it, right, because he did Madonna successfully and he did Eric Clapton successfully, and so.

He became he nailed it.

I went the other way, which was I only wanted to work with the artist that was signed that we were signing.

I didn't want to work with anybody else.

You signed, You're like, I'm going to manufacture the next ten millions.

Yes, I'm doing that. So I just went into that mode.

And so what was the realization point where it's like, hey, office life like who does that?

Who wants? Who? Who wants to be a rock star?

And then says, or did you realize earlier that all of the power and the money and the success and the magic is behind.

It wasn't that, you know what it was for me? It was it was really the love of music, man. It was because I loved music, not only the music that Kenny and I made, but when I met people like Dallas Austin, or when I met like not just people I work with, but when I would meet other producers, I would love their music, like I love Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis, I like my favorite producers. Leon Silvers

I just I love the people that made music.

So I didn't want a career that was based on the music that I made.

I didn't think I was good enough for that.

I wanted to be a career that I could work with people that I thought were immensely talented. So my career decisions had only to do with music. It had nothing to do with power, It had nothing to do with money. It was a pure love of Damn. I love how Dallas does this. I love how Jermaine Dupre does that. Oh my god, these kids organize noise, they

I was so into.

Homegrown and I felt comfortable and homegrown, and I felt uncomfortable having to measure up two stars.

But you realized that once you get behind that desk, your Jedi mind trick knowledge has to go into overdrive. Because I'm certain by that point, like when you're having your own label, you're trying to you got to talk people out of a lot of bad decisions, right like you you got to take meetings and you got to remember names and go to things like Jack the Rapper and whatever, shake hans and kiss babies, like who would trade?

I think it's for the stage or in your life like I had, like I was my group little brother were signed to UH Atlantic, you know years ago and UH and you know, Julie Greenwall we would have conversations and you know, she would say, like, you know, we

Yeah, Like that's yeah, that's the thing. And I get it.

It makes total sense, you know versus when you're you know, in your LA and Babyface days where you're actually kind of in the field so to speak, like when you're in the studio you're programming the drums whatever. Now you get to kind of be the big picture guy in.

A single, all the pieces.

There's one thing I learned about it that I that I do love and being being an executive And it had to do with choices about artists.

And records and like the great the ones.

I love that I considered the great Barry Gordy obviously being number one on that side of the lecture right as an executive Clive Davis, I obviously love and respect Jimmy Ivan, I'm urt again, and there are others, you know. But what I loved is if they were passionate about something, they could drive it and to your point, right, like I think you kind of called it manufacturing, but it was more like, if you have this intuition or this instinct that this gut that something is the thing, and

And I liked that.

And I liked that particularly for black artists, because black artists don't often get an opportunity to get a crossover shot, a shot to the mainstream. That is all because like Whitney Houston is because Clive Davis said this is for the masses, Rihanna is because I said this is for the masses.

When you signed Rihanna, I mean she's now god status, like there's yeah, she's literally.

Past She's past the vanguard level.

Like in my mind, Rihanna would have just been like maybe Janet Jackson level where she just has twenty hits under her belt, but she's now past that point.

I can't say I knew all that.

Maybe j Brown knew it, maybe Jay Z knew it right because obviously all of us we're involved together, I can't say that when.

I first saw her and I heard her first Ponder replay, Jay Brown brought it to me one night in the office, was really late at night, and I was like, I guess that was my reaction.

Yes, all right.

This is also the period where we were about to sign to the label. I remember once. I remember once going to a j show. Rihanna was there and you signed what's your name?

No, no, no, not Rita or.

Ti Marie.

Now, the energy that I felt in the room when I was backstage was Tierra Marie was going to be out of the smash.

And Rihanna got the cute little hit and she'll probably get on like now.

Her song and playing the mall.

Yes, I thought she's gonna be on that now.

That's what I call music volume thirty seven, and the opposite happened. Yeah, So how how does it again? Is that Jedi mind tricking where you have to know who your artist is?

Like?

How long do you get to absorbing artists to know what they need in order to make it happen? I think it's just like, okay, so, especially when they self sabotage a lot, right, So I.

Think this first of all, I think this helps answer one of your other questions. Yes, we really believed in Tia Marie.

All of us.

She got the Rockefeller chain, all of it. Yeah, it didn't work. I love her as a person, I saw her not long ago, but it didn't. It didn't connect at all. The songs didn't connect, the artists didn't really connect. And so no, you can't force it. You could, you can, you can prioritize it, and you can try, but you can't. You can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make them drink, right, it doesn't It didn't work.

Rihanna.

On the other hand, I grew. I grew into it personally, Like I remember when it hit me. I remember really well when it hit me, sitting in the house one night and listening to the demos and you know, Jay Brown, Ti those guys they were making her records like, and they were giving them to me to listen to. And I remember sitting at home listening to Good Girl Gone Bad and all these songs. I came back and said, wait a minute, guys, she called an album that what

Right?

And it was like it was a statement. Anyway, My point is it all of a sudden hit me that she was it. And then she did this song called so Os, and I watched the video for so Os and I took it home. I told my wife Erica. I was like, this girl is about to be the biggest star in the if not the world, watch this video. And we watched the video and it was like, Okay, I get it. And then she made Umbrella. And when she made Umbrella, then do I know Do I have

I was like, yep, she's gone right, Okay, you get a song like Umbrella, you get jay Z on that song. Can he walk us through the process of what it takes to make that song connect with an artist, Like, how do do you play it?

Who do you play it for? First? Who gets there?

Did the dream just bring it in the dreams processed?

Yeah?

So no, no, no, I mean creatively, I'm talking about once you have album in hand, how do you make sure that people around the world know what Umbrella is?

At the time? It's certainly it's there.

There are more avenues now, it's the game has gotten pretty complicated, and it's and it's flooded, flooded with stuff right from all these platforms and all this d I Y and every very low barrier to entry.

So there's a lot more stuff than there are than than there is special stuff, uh in the game. Back in those days, a record executive can make a record of priority and and and put it on radio all radio and people will hear it.

And video video mattered, right, and MTV matter, and b E T matter and VH one matter right, and so all of our all of our avenues and our platforms, Uh, we had enough influence that we could get it a shot. It still had to take off, but our job is just to get it in front of the people, and that's what we did. We got it in front of the people and it took off.

So does that also mean that your relationship has to be intact with I don't know who like ran Empty or Viacom at the time, or your relationship with the whoever runs Clear Channel.

Yes, yeah, it absolutely means that. Yes, yeah, absolutely, those contacts are golden.

They really are.

I mean we try to always keep them and even with the changing of guards, right we we're right there too, you know, hail the new King, held the new Queen. But the relationships are golden. But it's also the artist relationships with these people and with these gatekeepers, you know, they also have to have their own They have to do the work. We can't do the work for an artist,

Has a lot of I think that has a lot of weight.

So even now, like, does it get tiring to have to know names and what they represent?

And how do you keep up? La?

It's exciting.

I'm the worst at that, sho Okay.

Exciting though not love that. I absolutely love the challenge of that, like I and and my memory is horrible. I mean, you can ask me anything about the eighties. I remember it, but anything from like twenty eleven forward I barely remember. I don't know why, but I really liked the idea of it. I mean, once I embraced being an executive, I did have a goal, and my goal was to be the best.

Yeah you know it, so check it.

La only wanted to do about an hour, but you know that we couldn't let you go. So once we got him rolling, he just wouldn't stop talking. So basically that's it for part too. And I want you to check back for our third and final QLs episode with Eli Red. And while you're at it, definitely check out our qs episodes with Babyface as well.

You know, go ahead at hand, All right, see y'all next time. Thank you West. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.