QLS Classic: Chris Schwartz

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

Hey, this is on paid Bill. This week's QLAS classic is with Chris Schwartz. In the September twenty four, twenty nineteen Combo, Chris talks about co founding rough House Records, growing up in Philly, and giving our very own Quest Love his first Internship episode one two.

Here it is.

Suprema s Sun Suprema roll call Suprema Suh suh Suprema, roll call, Suprema su su Suprema, roll call Suprema.

This is not going to be Suprema. It's my turn. Yeah, live in you learn.

Yeah, we're talking to the man.

Yeah, who let me in?

Turn Suprema s Supremo roll call Supreme Suck Suck Supremo.

Rolets in the building. Yeah, and it must be said. Yeah, rough House Records.

Yeah, they got all my breads.

Suprema shun Sun Supremo role Suprema shut Supremo role called.

My name is Sugar.

Yeah.

Last time I lived here, Yeah, I lived with a mayor. Yeah, that was a rough House.

Supremo roll Suprema su su supprivo roll.

Boss Bills in the House.

Yeah, no, I ain't on a plane. Yeah, but I just might be a little Yeah insane in the pre.

Supremat Supremo roll call Suprema So Supremo.

Role my name, Yeah, and that's PRIs Swartz.

Yeah.

You may not know this, but he was my boss once Roll.

Supreme Sun Sun Supremo roll call Suprema Sun Sun Supremo.

Roll for sure hanging out Yeah, Quest Love Supreme.

Suprema Sun Sun Suprema roll call, Suprema Son Sun Suprema Roll Call Suprema Sun Sun Supremo roll call.

See it wasn't that pretty bad life? Ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. Uh, Quest Love and we have the team Supreme here.

Hello. Hello, this is your life?

Yes, I know, right in the house. Yeah yeah, and I'm paid. Bill is hear in spirit?

I'm sorry. Yeah, he's recovering from Boss Bills in.

The house and Sugar Steve good see man, Hey, how you doing good?

See everybody?

Yeah, it's nice to see. I will say that.

Our guest today was instrumental in giving us a lot of classic nineties hip hop man listen that shaped us.

Not to mention.

This man also gave me one of my first jobs that got me into the industry, gave me an edge of vacation. I asked for an internship. It's like show up at ten in the morning, be on time, and then I was there.

What can I say?

Like Roughhouse Records, Philadelphia's premiere recording label that gave us Larry Lair, Cypress Hill, the Fuji's, the Goats, Criss Cross, a little unown group called Chris Cross. Uh, even jam oh Man Jamal Ski I used to play that John Don't do It started the Jamal ski started a slew of impostafarimators on their label. But even d M X not many people know that x is the first single was on rough House.

Uh, I mean school.

There's so many like uh, book coming out? Yes, when in the title of the book.

Rough House from the streets affiliate to the top of the hippop.

Yes, I didn't know what the practices is called Ladies don't give it. From the one and only Chris Wartz.

Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Man full circle.

Yes, yes, Worts, I mean last time I seen you man, you know we.

Were I talk about this all the time. I remember, Oh, he's seeing you either at the airport or the trains. You were always on the move. And I remember I was telling Leyah, I was driving to thirty Street station with somebody from New York, and I said, I'll bet you right now, like twenty bucks that we're going to see a mirror.

Right.

So we got to the train station, you weren't there, and I forked over the twenty.

But then when.

We were leaving New York to come back, you were at the train station.

See.

I'm never well, See I'm the opposite of general. Never on time, but always there, never there. I have so many questions. I mean, I've known you for so long but never knew your true story? Right, but where were you born? Were you born in Philadelphia?

In a hospital in Philadelphia? Technically? Yeah, I was worn at Jefferson Hospital.

Okay, yeah, okay. What part of Philly did you grow up in?

I grew up in I grew up out out in the farmlands.

Okay, you say that with pride a lot of people. No, no, no, I'm not I'm not riky.

I'm just saying that when people who are not in Philadelphia see me, they're like hey.

I'm from Philly.

I was like, oh we're we're part Evan. They get to seem like.

No, no, no Salem or you know, come shocking. Yeah yeah, Devon, yeah Devon. Uh where I was, where I grew up.

It was.

Like farmland, and then my neighborhood was this little like uh, I guess it was like a World War two, you know, post World War two little development.

And but you know, I.

Left home at seventeen and uh joined the service and spent really yeah okay, which brings navy Okay, yeah wow, oh yeah, it's on the book.

But never I'm that discipline cars.

Yeah yeah, right, well that explains a lot.

Uh what'd you I mean? Were you always uh sort of drawn to music or oh?

Absolutely absolutely?

I mean since uh, well I got I grew up in a family of ten kids. Wow, so uh at number seven? Okay, So I have four older brothers and two older sisters. So growing up, you know, you know, I'm I was born in nineteen sixty, so having old you see, it's the thing my family was set up. It was like two groups of kids. There was the older kids, right, and and then my parents had another

You know?

So but but but back to you know, so I grew up in a house like a lot of music from the sixties and the seventies, you know, was constantly playing from different rooms, and.

So yeah, I.

Was particularly you know, there was a lot there was two things going on. You had the definitive pop radio, which was AM radio, which was just pop hits, and then you had the progressive FM rock stage.

So were you a wizard one hundred head?

No, it was actually WFI l oh okay, Yeah, And then and then there you had WYSP and w WMMR WMMR for people from Philly. You probably don't know that it was actually one of the first underground FM rock stay in the country. Every Saturday at twelve o'clock at night, they play an entire album like new outline artists and you, and they would tell you how to set your dollby on your tape deck to record. It's really yeah, yeah, really yep, damn.

I didn't realize that.

So you you weren't You weren't part of the generation listenings up because I know that Wizard one hundred on the AM dial.

Was kind of like that.

Actually that actually may have been a little bit before my listening years.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

All right, No, I just you know, the house was always on my radio, like in the house, that radio was always on.

House wasn't always on my radio. Radio was always on my house.

Yeah, but usually on the weekends, uh, like Saturday and Sunday like Casey Casem's countdown we come on that station whatnot. But all right, so you straight up FM kid, Yeah, do you remember what the music environment was like in Philadelphia as far as the nightlife was concerned.

Or anything, or did you have to go to New York too?

Well, when I was, I mean it was like when I was, when I was like like a uh teenager, the music of Philadelphia was really more primarily known because of pir you know, it was really known as the you know, you had you had the you had Motown oheys. But Philly, Philly was known as is the place where you know, it played a big part of the disco era. You know, it did the tramps and everything like that. So, uh, but your coming of age was more.

Post yeah, assuming twenty one, twenty two whatever.

Like, yeah, well I would well I was, uh, I would have been twenty one in nineteen eighty eighty one eighty one, Yeah, yeah, nineteen eighty one.

So what were the musical options after the initial primary disco duh?

Well, oh so we're talking about that peak period.

Yeah, yeah, nineteen eighty one it was it was uh, you know it you had Lady b Power ninety nine.

Okay, yeah, that's so you were a head.

Oh right, oh yeah, nineteen eighty one mostly yeah, Well, here's it was. It was two things. It was hip hop on one part of it, right, and then uh my.

My sort of bass.

Formative thing was I was really into electronic music.

That was that was it? Like to me?

Craft Work? Yeah, craft work, see because I had listen. I've been listening to craft Work since I was a kid. I mean I went to see I want to see them perform Audubon at the Valley Forge Music Fair because Audubon.

Here's here's what a lot of people know.

Wfi L used to play the entire album version of Audubon. The three longest songs in history of AM pop radio were Tubular Bells by Michaelfield, which was the because it was the theme for The Exorcist. Uh, and it Gotta Vita by Iron Butterfly, and then you had Audubon and they used to play it, you know, the entire thing on pop radio. So they they did a show at the Valley Forge Music Fair and I went there with my best friend.

Yeah.

No, no, no, no, no, that's the new value for it. That's the later on.

Valley Forge Music Fair actually started as a tent really yeah, it was a big tent. It was like a seasonal thing. They'd have like you know, Fiddler on the Roof and stuff like that. And they had just built the first one. The first incarnation of it, right and uh yeah, and it was like I went there and was just two guys, you know, Ralph and Florian and like big stacks of keyboards and everything.

Uh and it was it was. It was very cool.

I was so futuristic. Yeah, they were the daft punk.

Yeah, well it's it's funny if they they were, you know the way I kind of see it daft punk.

Really yeah. If if there's been no craft.

Works, I'm not sure craft work, yes, yeah, I see what you mean.

Wait, is the Valley Ford's Music Fair still around today?

I don't think so.

I think there's a there's either a Red Lobster or damn something. Yeah, like Criss Cross show there, yea with Doctor Dre and Ed really yeah, it.

Was, it was yeah.

So yeah they closed in ninety six, really damn. Yes, there's always my dream to to play there, like my dad played there once. But like they would have a rotating stage in the round thing and yeah, one could get dizzy or lose their since. So yeah, depending on how many degrees the how fast the stage was turning.

When I was thirteen, I worked at a banquet house down the street, washing dishes and all the whoever was playing at the Value Forge Music Fair used to come to stop. Yeah, they go there to eat and I met a lot of people like Mac Davis.

Oh, Dann.

I changed a flat tire for zero Mastell's limo.

Really yeah, damn, gave me ride home, gave me fifty bucks.

Wow, fix a limo and get a lift.

Do you remember the club Cahoots There was like a Sheridan, a circular Sheridan hotel like in the area.

Uh yeah, in Value Yeah. I never had reason to frequent the club. Yeah, but I know they had that. That's the place that had the themed hotel rooms.

Yeah, top yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going down Philly memory Lane.

You know, I'm sorry.

I always wanted to go.

Yeah.

So for you like listening to Lady B, Well, Lady B started off on w H A t Mary Do you remember Mary Mason?

Yeah?

Yeah, Mary Ma, she was still on h she was still Yeah.

So, like they had a Saturday hip hop show, one of the very first ones that Philadelphia had.

So I know that Lady B started.

At H at like nineteen eighty till, which is weird considering that hip hop, you know, two years in having a two hour format you know, you only had like thirty records to choose from. Uh, so you had to play all those sixteen minute songs.

And then they took her over the station that was the there was the uh I think it was w io Q right. Then they became uh, it was Yesterday's now Music Today.

It was like new wave.

Then I think they moved her there and they build up the ratings like they she was there, like it could have been you know, I might have my facts wrong, but I believe it. They would play it was all hip hop. It was massive. They sponsored shows at the after midnight and then they sold it. Oh really, And I think she went to Paradise.

Yeh kicking out Once she came to parat nine eighty four, briefly had an afternoon Sunday show from like twelve in the afternoon till uh maybe five pm on Sunday afternoon. And I mean there she would play hip hop and uh the electronica of the day, so sort of like Nucleus and uh gem on, yeah.

That sort of you know, anything that sounds like planet rock.

And then she went away and then yeah, and then returned in nineteen eighty seven.

Did you start out as management. First, Like, what was your first job in the industream I played? I played in bands, okay, and who did you play with? I? Well, my first my first thing when I when I when I joined when I joined the Navy, I played in I started a band with.

A bunch of other sailors and we did a bunch of gigs.

And when I came home, I regrouped with my best childhood friend, Jeff Coulter.

He was a drummer.

So when I was in the service, he started really getting into you know, because of craft work. He started getting into these other I mean craft work is kind of like at the at the apex of this whole like community, like of all these German groups like Klau Schultze, Tangerine.

Dream, NOI, uh everything.

And so when I came home, he had like literally over a thousand records of this stuff. And we get him at either Plastic Fantastic and Ardmore or the basement of basement of Third Street Jazz. You mentioned Plastic Fantastic, one of the greatest record stores ever.

Right down the street from when I sold insurance on Lancaster Avenue.

Yeah, yeah, I would take my entire sector.

Yeah.

Well, and here's the thing the the the basement of Third Street Jazz. That's all that was. And you would, you know, like a cloud Schultz import was like one hundred and twenty bucks, but you bought it because this was like, you know, Kloud's doing a like two sides of a duet with some famous cellis and Klouds is playing with the Gens computer and.

You know, it's just very cool stuff.

So so I had a set of Degan electro Vibes. It's a portable vibe set of vibraphones that you like a suitcase and the stands. So I bought all my equipment, had it shipped back, and him and I joined up and we started this group called Tangent and we were, you know, just devotees to electronic music. So you were, oh, well yeah with w XPN. So w XPN had two radio shows. One was called Diaspar and the other what's called stars End. They played and supported electronic music. We

Now.

I've been at you know, I've been at the Navy now three months and I'm already you know. So they this week we went and played their picnic there that they had, and then we were we did a show at the East Side Club where we did Audubon. We played the whole version of Audubon there and uh met this this girl who was a filmmaker, and she introduced me to these guys had a band called Rhythm of Lines.

And we we we.

Did a bunch of shows opened up for Pretty Poison, the Vells, shows of the Stickman. We did shows at Blondies, Emerald Cities, Bigelow's, Phillies and the East Side Club and h But I wanted to get a record deal.

That was my big thing. I wanted to, you know, get a record deal.

And you know, the guys, the the other guys in the in the in the band, they weren't I don't know they they just had their priorities were in peculiar places, I'll know. So, uh, Jeff and I left. We uh we ended up moving to a house in West Philly. Uh that a friend of mine, Rich Murray, who was a Temple film grad. Yeah yeah, Rich, and so we all we moved in together. We uh we put a student we created put our studio.

In one of the rooms.

And so Jeff and I were now doing more traditional dance music and met this girl, Robin Carter, who was her they called her astro girl because she had this, uh, this total affinity for anything related to NASA and space travel. She actually went on to get her degree in astrophysics and she does work for NASA as we speak, really crazy. But she was a saxophone player. Her her her landlord was Jack right from Spring Guarden Music.

So she you're naming.

All these like Philly legends of record store owners and yeah, shout out to Michael mcquochan, also from Third Street Jazz.

Yeah, you give me all the good ship.

So we we uh, she she joined up with us.

We came up with that. We called ourselves the Ultronics, right.

And we we started doing gigs and she got us a gig at to get Llery Mall.

It was a little different, you know.

So you know, we're doing our thing and people are kind of coming there, standing there carrying their shopping bags.

They're looking at us for about three or four minutes and walking away.

But there was a group of kids who were like watching us intently the whole time, and they're like talking amongst themselves, right, and they're just like so when we're done, they kind of like they they they walk over and this kid introduces himself, his name is Clinton Shirley and his stage name was Kid Fresh and he and he said, you know, we're hip hop group and we'd like to know could you guys.

Help us do some beats.

So we bought them over to our house and like the next week and we did a bunch of tracks on the second floor and made this tape.

And so.

You know, by this time, we had amassed a bunch of twelve inch dance records. So I started looking through these records because I remembered there was a record label in Philadelphia and it was Virtue Virtue Records, and I got the phone number. Now I got to go back a little bit because Rich being you know, as a filmmaker, he was doing these videos for Philly World Records and he got me the gig as being.

The caterer during these video shoots.

Right, So I had met Donald Robinson and Donald came over to our house. I tried to get him to produce us, and he said, yeah, I get what you're doing, but your song suck.

And I was like, all right, I get it.

But but the thing is, it's that when I called the number on Virtue Recording, I I kind of took the liberty of bolstering the narrative and telling Frank Virtue that I was I was working with Donald Robinson. And that got Frank's attention and he said, come on up. So I went up to Frank and I played him this uh this stuff.

He listened to it.

Now, Frank had been working as a partnership with the guy named Vince de Rosa, who owned a company called Soundmakers in Jersey and for folks who might not know or maybe be interested, sound Makers in the eighties pressed up all the records for Next Plateau, Sleeping Bag, Tommy Boy, even Death Jam, Yeah, all the indie labels.

So they were the disc makers of yeah oh yeah, oh wait.

We should also know that Donald Robinson didn't he write Dreaming for Vanessa Williams?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Donald, Donald did lots of Uyah, Eugene Wilde, you know, to get you home to you know what I got to tell you, Well, that song, you know, that song was a was a was really just doing sexual healing right coming whole vibe.

But it was still a great song, you know.

Uh So yeah, well that's where I met Donald because I was a caterer on Rich was doing the video. Yeah, so so Frank Frank Virtue and for people to know he was a music industry old timer.

He uh.

He played in the Philadelphia Orchestra as a teenager. He was a prodigy violinist and he led he he he. They drafted him to the Navy to lead a big band dance band in the Navy. He got out and he had a group called the Virtues and the Virtue with the Virtues and the Virtuoso's, he had a couple hit songs. He had Guitar Shuffle Boogie, the Horse, the Return of the Horse. He toured with like Patty Page and somebody sent me something on Facebook the other day.

To the to the to the to the venues and everything, and nothing ever came of it. Uh. But Clinton later on uh changed his name to Mike Elliott. Oh yeah, I knew that I was lean up. Yeah. Yeah, Mike Elliott the Source. But you know, but here's the thing.

He he He actually co wrote the What's the Kid the Sneaker the movie?

No, Mike Kelly did the Source Awards. Well yeah, hang on, I gotta look. Yeah, Mike Elliot is one of the original uh source guy.

Yeah. Yeah, I didn't wait, I didn't realize.

I forgot. He also had his own video show. He had his own video show in Philadelphia. It's killing me now. He went in the movies. Uh, Mike Elliott developed the Carmen movie Most and most us birthing sometimes in this in this very room that we're in.

Uh. But yeah, Mike Elliott is a fully legend.

Yeah.

He did the script Brown Sugar, I believe, so I know that he got into filmmaking heavy.

Yeah he No, he did the something like Mike the about the kid in the orphanage.

Yeah, like Mike, like Mike.

No, something like Mike. Brown Sugar was his first. Uh No, but this here's the thing.

Rich Murray and I were out in La this years later and we're we're at some some film company, some studio, and the guy were sitting there and somehow we hear Mike Elliott's names, like Mike Elliott, I know, Mike, Mike Elliott, and and he said, uh, oh yeah, you know he's a hot property right now because he did this the movie. It's about a kid in an orphanage and something to do with a pair of sneakers, like and Michael.

George like Mike like Mike.

Yeah yeah he did like Mike with bo.

Yeah.

So I'm sorry, so so so so I So then then the thing is the trade off was Frank would let me use the studio to develop acts.

I had to help him. Frank had a gospel.

Business, and what it would be is that, you know a lot of the bigger churches would record their gospel choirs. They press up the records and sell them to the congregation to raise money.

And so that was a big business of Frank's.

Frank actually, interestingly enough, had a a very you know, back before Sigma Sound and these companies, everybody went to Virtue to record. Kenny, Kenny and Leon did a lot of their early stuff up there and Frank, you know, I don't know if some many listeners don't know about the mastering process, but after record has made and mixed, it has to be mastered. And what mastering.

Is is that you you.

It's a process for making sure that the record that you made in the studio is reproduced everywhere else with the intended audio equalization. So the record has to get mastered for manufacturing. So it's a it's a whole other kind of mixing process. And uh, Frank had been doing it for years. He held patents on the mastering pro he met. He mastered the first couple of Beatles singles for Swan and Decca Records. So I did this whole thing with Frank for a while and it just kind of,

Records was.

Live and greater for.

So yeah so Ted, Ted was formerly a prison guard, right and Ted helped actually helped Lawrence and Dana start pop art so so so so yeah, so you know cut the Rich and I you know, also did a video for pop art. We did the Rock Sands Rock Sands Revenge.

Yeah yeah.

We shot it at our house. As a matter of fact, yeah ye.

Record.

Yeah, I'll tell you this.

I we shot at our house and it had everybody was involved in the actual story about how she got a record deal and got.

Signed was in it. The shooting went till three in the morning.

And I'll never forget coming downstairs in my in my living room. Uh, Marley Marr and mister Magic are in my living room on the couch under blankets, eating cereal and watching cartoons.

Wait, can you take us a slight sidebar?

And because whenever I get someone that tells a pop art story, usually.

It's you know, told like and then I met Lawrence coopin.

No, Dana was the dangerous one.

Okay, well this is what I want to know.

Obviously they had the makings to be a contender, yes, because they were deaf jam before death cham.

Yeah, they had salt and Pepper. They had all of the for them.

I'd never tried to get a deal with a major label, right, So how did they drop in the most diplomatic way you can say, or if you don't give a fuck, tells the truth, how do they drop the ball on pop art? They had something they had, I'll tell you what they had, man. They they they they they cracked the code right long before a lot of people.

And here's what they realized hip hop.

Music, right, yeah, you know it was a It was the purview of the indie labels because for the first time since the whole disco era, you could.

Now be an independent label.

You could make a record, you could get it out there, and because you're using you're facilitating uh, lifestyle marketing initiatives.

And every stuff that doesn't cost a lot of money, but.

Yet you have a product they can go out and sell big numbers.

Right.

And the it was kind of like, uh, you know, the majors were seeing this, you know, and they were they were coveting this whole thing. And the majors basically, and I know no other way to say it, man, but they colonized.

The hip hop industry.

I'm not talk about hip hop music. But the hip hop business they colonized. They colonized it. Yeah, and so so Lawrence and Dana figured it out earlier on before a lot of people because these companies like Next Plateau and Sleeping Bag and everything all went by the wayside because they all chose to remain fiercely independent. And I get that, but when the popularity of a music becomes so big, you know, you're not going to be able to deliver the manufacturing and distribution. So they figured it

So but they had such a hefty roster, lost them all. They had Jazzy Jeff Prince, they had Salt and Pepper, they had bizz.

Ye, John tay Uh, the hill Top Hustlers.

Stead they had them all and lost them all. Like were they just.

Businessmen?

Yeah?

I think it's you know, the the for for what it's worth there this business. You know, let's face it, there there is no no prerequisite to get in the record business.

You don't you don't need.

A college degree, you don't need a resume, you don't need nothing. And as a result of that, and because.

Of the the proliferation of all these visuals showing showing wealth and showing you know, status and everything like that, it attracts a lot of people, a lot of people who who feel like, oh, this is a business I could walk.

In and become a millionaire overnight.

Right.

And they had they I always say, there were great an r guys, and they had the musical chops, but I think they they just lacked a lot.

In the on the side.

Of a business.

Yeah, and just.

Wow, man, I don't know, I want to do with bulletproof still around, I'm like they are.

Because I still followed.

Uh well, you know the youngster guys or they're ulsters now one of them is still working with Like, I don't know.

How are you talking about the kids?

Yeah, like one of them in her staff.

But I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this.

Lawrence and Dana were very they have very definitive ideas, you know what I mean.

And that's what that's to me.

It's like, you know, they they again they cracked the code they figured it out, because I'll tell you when they did the deal with Jive, and I'll never forget they came in the studio with their with their jackets at r c A and the hats and everything, and I'm like, I was kind of like, at first.

I was like, oh man, they they sold out. They went with Jive and everything, you know.

And then and then but then to hear him talk about it, it was like it was like the the you know, it's like, well, that's if you're unless it's network.

Now, if you're not a major, you're gonna is what.

You're gonna think. Yeah, okay, So all.

Right, so we're at the Bill Cosby record, right right. So so Ted was a prison guard at great effort, and he was the director of the Prisoner's Activities Fund. And so I think Bill Cosby, I think the story

It's uh, he had some rendering done.

It was just really headed boys.

Yeah, so so he he. I walk from forty eighth in hazel to fifty second in Parkside looking for the address of this record company.

My house.

Yeah, so there's this daycare center right. Ted's mother answers the door. She's like very uninviting. She makes me wait for Ted. I have to sit in this chair that's like a foot high for little kids. And I'm sitting there for twenty minutes, like thinking this might not be the dream job I was thinking it is. Ted shows up, takes me up to the third floor of this building

Yeah, I did. And I was calling retailers and and doing that. And so so.

We had a session. Ted signed a bunch of artists. I can't even remember their names, except for Bunny Siglar. We did a Bunny Siga record that was pretty cool. But we we had a session booked at studio for one night and I'd only been to studio for once because I was involved in the WDAS Black History Month rap compilation that with Eddie d and everything. And so we go to the session and studio for and our engineers Joe Nicholo, and I'd never met Joe, you know, and we're in the session.

We're starting now.

Ted was a pretty boisterous guy in that he was always bragging him out.

Yeah, I got this deal going on with MCA and.

Doing this and doing that and everything, and he's doing this in the studio and and I guess at one point I kind of rolled my eyes, like out of you know, and Joe caught it right right. So when Ted walks out of the studio, Joe's like, how did you end up working for this guy?

And he said, well, you know, it's not my dream job, but you know, I want to start a record label. And Joe goes like, yeah, well so do I.

You know, so here's my number. You know we should get up at some point. Nice So that happened, right. So back at nice Town Records in West Philly, I was in Ted's all office talking about something and I see these these records, the yellow labels, and I pick it up and the song is called Gangster Boogie by Schoolide and it was on a record label called A Place to Be Records.

Now, I had known.

About Schoolie for a long time, right, and I know that you know you remember Bobby Dance and the wind Ball Oh yeah, okay, so fruit of Ism, security and all that good stuff. Uh. I knew about his whole thing, right yeah. And so I said to Ted, I said, so, what, like, what's going on with these? He goes, oh, yeah, school He came to me and he wanted, you know, me

And he goes, yeah, that sounds good man.

You know.

Come on, and where do you live?

And he lives like like a couple of blocks bubb the daycare center. So we set up a.

Time and I'll never forget this man. I go to his house. I step up on the porch. I knock on the door. He answers the door, and he's wearing a towel and he sees me on his porch. He sees me on his porch and then he kind of looks around to see who's seeing me.

On his porch, right, you know, and he goes, yeah, man, I'm taking a shower and he shuts the door and I'm standing there like like, you.

Know what what just happened?

Right?

So I call him up later on he goes, oh, you need to talk to my lawyer, Warren Hamilton. And before I could ask for Warren's number, he hangs up and I look up Warren. I met with Warren. Eventually we met all of us, three of us together. I said, look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna we're gonna shoot some videos. Uh, We're gonna do this whole thing. I'm gonna get your record, you know, distributed. Uh, and I'm gonna sit up distribution and uh. And that's how I started working with him.

And so at the this is at the beginning of PSK. Yeah, yeah, so how did you he recorded?

He just recorded PSK and Gucci Time, but he had not done the album yet, Okay, And we recorded the album this is a crazy thing. We recorded in Center City at a little eight trax studio that recorded the Philadelphia Orchestra and there.

Was no no.

No really equipment, and so we they had one of the old big plate reverbs, right like you know.

What I'm talking about. Yeah, and it was just uh.

We should also shout out, all right, spawn, what's Jeff's true last name?

Because I keep on saying.

Jeff Cheese state, No, Jeff Chestick, Jeff, yes, Jeff Why Are you ready?

Are you ready about you want to hear Jeff Chesstick trivia fact?

Yes?

Hit me. Him and I went to junior high together. Really, I know that I knew Jeff Chestick since nineteen seventy two, seventy three.

Jeff.

Yeah, when Jeff used to mix here, I forgot what project I was working on, but he told me the very first story of and he never gave the title.

Yeah, it was so you know, it's like I want more reverb, more reverb.

And when he did this, I was like, yeah, this is just like in PSK.

He's like, well, yeah, mixed that.

And I know you're probably like what, You're like, what? Yeah? Can I tell you?

Jeff Jessick we were in a V A V club together, right, and we did these av projects, right, And this is in seventh grade. He did this thing where, you know, because you have audio, you have video equipment, and he did this thing where it was an elevator going up in a store and opening up in the different.

Departments and everything. It was really it was clever.

You know, in the seventh grade, I thought the guy had real talent, you know, chops so so so basically we're now doing stuff and I was going through it was a lot of schooly up till then, have been doing primarily West Philly, North Philly hip hop shows and everything. And I started sending out his record to like remember

And like City Hall.

Records in San Francisco, West Coast Record Distributors, Schwartz Brothers Done in Baltimore, Maryland, Encore Distributors Up and Up in Brooklyn. And the thing about in the independent record distribution business at the time is that it's very hard to get paid. And the reason they're very difficult in paying you is because if you're a new independent label and you have a record that goes out there and sells, that's all fine and well, but what they don't want to do

Car and the car.

I'd have a car stacked with records in the back and in the trunk, and I'd sleep in the parking lot overnight, you know, wait for these guys to get it, get it, to get a check, and to give them the records. So at one point I got I set it up to where I was sending out the singles and they're paying half cod. So the pressing plant and

Because it was just like on a Saturday, where do you go to find new music? You go to the record store, beat the market store.

Yeah, so there is a whole thing where you could release a twelve inch right on a Friday.

You you give it.

To the clubs, you give it to the mix show. Saturdays you get to guys playing in the store. And Saturdays there again it's in the mix show and in the clubs. By Monday, you knew.

If you had something right. It was that fast.

That was the excitement of putting out putting out records.

So they're calling you saying like I need five more.

Yeah and so and so.

Uh we we ran into a little schism with the sound makers because I was at Downtown Records and up in New York City one day and I saw that they had our PSK Gucci Time record and it's our label. Everything's the same except it says distribute through Warlock Records.

And I thought, wow, this is the search. Yeah, Warlock Records.

That's that's that's you know, Roulette, Morris Levy and Son Adam Lee or so. So I didn't call Warlock, but I'll never forget this man. I went to the counter and there was this guy who's like literally right out of Central Casting for for you know, big guys.

Yeah Agad. I was about to say, were you your own collector?

Big thick glasses and a cigar, you know, And he's sitting behind the count and he goes, yeah, at least Warlock can get the records pressed.

Up and delivered when we need them, right, So what you mean collector?

Like like you were your own distributed like you Yeah?

I did. Yeah I was back in those days though, didn't you need some muscle. Oh no, no, no, no, no.

The thing is took In terms of collecting, we had a we had a company set up. It was Schoey Records, and no I would send them to you know, distribuers, but we also operated kind of as our own one stop.

Because here's the thing.

Schooly on his own had started out, you know, Chino at Funko Mart given them records and everything. And that became a little bit issue issue because when I hooked us up with Universal, you know, uh, you know, they they they fronted us the money to press records and then they go to solicit Funko Mart and these plays and there.

Yeah, that that was school. He was always doing ship like that.

But so so so.

We uh you know, but a lot of a lot of really.

Crazy things happened, and and then it's it was amazing that that the record just suddenly took on this whole momentum, you know, and suddenly the orders started happening, you know.

And it was and we you know the album.

Were you in a place where like the demand was sort of demand demand what you could supply.

Yeah, because because I every time I needed Schooy.

To write a check to press up records.

If I needed, you know, six hundred and forty two dollars, he'd give me two hundred and forty two dollars.

You know.

It was just it was just yeah, it was just say everything constantly a day late and a dollar short, you know, day late and a dollar short. I booked him in a bunch of rock clubs, and you know, in the in the early days of hip hop, hip hop promoters for the most part were guys that that didn't see doing one.

Off hip hop shows. It's like career building blocks. It was more of a score for them.

So artists get jacked all the time. And because of this, you know, Schoolly always demanded his money up front before he went on stage. And I get that, right, But when you're doing a rock club, right, that's a an established venue that you know that deals with booking agents and everything like that.

They don't.

They don't stiff bands because if they did, they'd be Persona and Grada. He'd never be able to book. But you know, we would do these shows and he'd won his money up front, and then the idea of these club managers and he'd have to count the money out of the receipts and everything. And then the next thing, you know, he gets on stage and what are hip hop artist shows in the eighties? Do they do their couple songs? Then they roll and you got these kids that drove from Delaware.

And they're like, yeah, so that was that was a whole mess.

And you know, but anyhow, so I called it Joe. I had that business card from Studio four.

And we, uh, we.

Got together, decided let's start this record label. And I was managing Schooly and my first office, you know the you know the building, you know the my first office was when you get down into that basement floor when you come through the door the Studio four built, right, they built because Larry. They built a b room for Larry to put Larry gold. But it's in clavier and there, well, there was a vestibule. There was a vestibule between that that room and the hallway right.

That was my office.

It was like four feet wide and uh, my desk was made of plywood covered with red vinyl because it was the original reception just for the studio, right, and I had a little lamp and Joe bought in like a pink princess phone from home, and that was that was.

The phone and and that's.

Where that's where we that's where the actual business started.

And then we moved into that of the other room, which is.

The bigger room that I know. Okay, wow, so.

But no, yeah, and then we moved down the hall later on took over that whole area down the hall too.

I missed.

Yeah, you know what I gotta.

Tell you, man, I Uh, it's funny because got years later. You know, you get you go thro these peers where you have gold platinum records every year and it's just never ending. But I look back on those days and I was like, I was always broke, but I just had so much fun, you know.

The time of your life.

Yeah.

So when was rough House as we know it officially officially born?

We we we first, first we started.

We had this really stupid in ambiguous name, Pyramid Productions. I don't know how that came about, but that lasted for like about a couple months, and Roughhouse, I have to say, was probably born.

I want to say eighty six, maybe.

Eighty six, I don't, I know it's in my book because I had to put together a bunch of events to you know, to figure out when it happened, but I know where it happened. We were in Arthur Man's office, our attorney who later went on to found raich ODIs, the first CD label and the history of music, which was an amazing thing. And there was a cassette by some rock band called rough House roug h and Joe said, you know, that'd be a great name for a record.

Label, and I was thinking, yeah, it's like, you know, and I.

Had a pretty rough house growing up, you know, my childhood and everything. Uh, but we should change it to our U F F to keep it you know, yeah, keep.

It rough And and that was really the birth of the label.

Our first artist was a was an artist named uh Mac Money uh me and Mack Evans her. She she she was a Philly battle rapper who did a answer record to PSK. Really yeah it was actually it was really good, and so we we signed her. And about there was a group called the Dead Milkman.

Do you remember the Dead Milkman rock group?

Yeah?

Uh, well their managers. They were distributed by a company on the West Coast called Enigma.

Enigma was a.

Was uh a company that did really obscure alternative like Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds right here. Let me tell you how obscure this music was. I was living on Gerard Avenue and uh I had body, a Jaguar and.

X J six.

Somebody broke into my car one night, and when we went out to Enigma, they gave us all these records to bring home, right, and so I had all these all these uh cassettes of all these different artists, these rock artists. Somebody broke into my car, went in the glove compartment and they took everything excepted anything that was released on Enigma. Whoever, whoever the car thief was, he basically took his time decided, deciding, deciding which, which which records he wanted.

Steve, remember that happened to us. Yeah, someone broke into my car and.

Left the roots albums. No they they they I had.

Uh Johnny I just seen walked the line. So I was like, all right, let me buy everything, Johnny Cash. I went and brought the Johnny Cash box set all this stuff, and.

Then I like brought Orange Johnson.

Joni Mitchell's like working stuff, and they like left everything and I pair Converse sneakers and my door was open. I got there and I was like, wait, someone broke in my car. But I was like, why didn't they take anything? And Steve looked and he's like, this is why they didn't want another. Oh see, you guys started in eighty six. I remember you guys went through like a couple of logos. So that's how I know the progression of the label. I first heard of you guys, I guess through.

Uh was Larry your first album signing.

Or Larry Larr?

Yeah?

Uh no, we had a group called Blackmail. Larry Larr was one of the first. I don't know if he was absolutely the first, okay, but it's funny because he was definitely before Tim Dog.

I was waiting.

I was just waiting, Yeah Dog, is he all right? All right?

What do you guess?

Is okay?

Where's he at? Where's Tim Dog? I know one of the joints he finessed.

So you don't think you don't think he's dead. Oh, I don't think he's dead at all.

You think no, I think I think he's dead. Man. Now, I hope I get I.

Just said my book, I said in Memoriam, you know, to himself, I'm pretty sure.

I'm pretty sure he passed away. Because he was sick.

Oh yeah, okay, yeah, okay, So do you all know the scandal? Yes, Tim Dog?

Yeah, yeah, what's the short of Tim Dog?

He was basically like meeting chicks online and like finessing amount of money and ship and then he and then he died quote unquote, quote unquote putting that record out, man, Like, were y'all what was the thought?

Were y'all worried about?

You know?

It was a it was it was a dicey proposition. But you know, I said to Tim at one point, right, I said, you know this is you can't you can't go and tour on the West coast, dude.

It's just you know, you're and and he got this whole thing.

Yeah exactly, he said, he goes, I'm just in gangs and everything and all that stuff. But you know, the crazy thing was is that that record, like I forgot where it charted. I think it went to maybe number seven or number five on on the on the Rap Singles chart. But it was the first ever music video that was sold as a commercial release. We sold, yeah, we sold over one hundred thousand vhs is for.

Nine ninety nine.

Wow.

Yeah, sou And you know it's crazy to the album Penicillin on Wax.

This is like hip hop at this point started really.

Becoming, you know, like an album oriented thing where if you if you if you had a hit hip hop single in the early eighties and you did an album, it was a good guess that your album was going to do well.

Because the single drove it.

But then I think, you know, the fans really started to want more of a narrative, you know, and Tim Yeah, and Tim could not break out of that narrative, you know, his narrative. He could not, he could not expand on it. But the production on the album because some company he did created something it was like where you can mix in quad. It was really cool, and they let Joe hold onto this machine for for like a month or so and he mixed the Tim Dog album on it.

Yeah, I bought it because at that time that was when like just rough house, like I would buy anything. I saw the label on the label, so I was like, I'm like all right, and I came to appreciate that much later me a shout out to my man Jayson, who was like, we're like the only two people in the world at rob fendersing long wax. Oh yeah, it's I mean, if you look at it, it's like, I mean, it's comedy, but it's just it's just a man just hollering and that ship is amazing.

He has a song.

Robbed.

Also, how did how did you guys get connected with Cyprus?

So?

I uh, while managing school starting the label, I also did. I promoted shows at post shows at the Chocadaro and the Chestnut Cabaret.

Yeah and uh.

I also managed a group called Executive Slacks. Executive Slacks for my best way to describe what they were it was nine Inch Nails.

Years before Nine Inch Nails Wow.

As a matter of fact, the same label Network Records up in Canada used to license the Slacks off of us. It was a It was a drummer named Bobby Ray who played standing up playing those electronic drums, and a keyboard player and a singer name and the play guitar named Matt Morello. I'll tell you one record that you know. I just tell everybody if they're even vaguely curious about this group. It's called Fire and Ice and it's an awesome record and it's real techno rock. But way back,

And there was another guy who was an A and R guy who was a He was a lawyer for Warner Bros.

Records, who became an A and R guy, and him and Meo kind of formed like a partnership. And MEO's two favorite artists in the world was schooly D and Executive Slacks. And so he called me up one day and we got to know each other. He flew out, we hung out, and him and Jeff had signed two hip hop artists to Geffen. One of them was a group called seven A three and they were produced by Lawrence Muggs Mugga Rood.

And the other group was a group.

Called Silk Times Leather Yeah, I remember, by Jermaine dupri So. Those projects were what they were, you know, they I just they just didn't happen. But Joe mixed them and I helped mark and pro the singles. Now you remember at this point, I also I also had a market. I was marketing records for other labels because all the labels that couldn't sign, you know, we end up signing school you.

To Drive records.

But every label, one of them, every budd Electra Warner's Capital, they all wanted to sign Schoolly. So the so the the guys that didn't didn't sign them, they signed their hip hop out act say, they called me up and they say, can you help us?

Right, so now I have like this little company doing this.

Uh Roseman who I was. I was engaged to Rose at the time, and she started doing retail promotion and Jackie Paul the rap chart editor for his magazine.

So we had a little company, right.

So we worked Easy E, n W A, Tone, Loak, Young MC, a whole host of other records. So we did this whole thing with with Geffen for seven eight three and Silk Time's Leather. Uh, we mark and promote the record and Joe mixed it and the records didn't happen. But you know, we started a relationship with Jermaine and his father Michael Malton Michael. Michael was the tour manager for the Fresh Fest and and did a lot of

Oh but yeah, you guys, you could talk to Kurt Woodley and Kurt replaced him.

So one Woodley's out, the other Woodley's in no relation and Kurt, Kurt was kind of cut from a different cloth and are wise, he was more more i think, much more kind of in tune intuitive with everything that was going on, and Kurt wasn't feeling Larry Layer, and he was unapologetic about it, you know, and we went round and round, and Kurt's whole thing was it he felt that the Will Smith Dougie Fresh storytelling style of hip hop.

You know. Yeah, you know.

I didn't even tell the whole Cheeba story. But that's all right, we don't need to get in that.

Cheeba was actually our first record with with Columbia, right when we did and and so when we left, as I'm leaving, I give him a copy of the Cypresil tape. I said, well, you might dig this in, right, And he called me up that night and he said, he goes, oh, man, that's Cypricil. He goes, I played that for Donnie. That's like, we got to do this.

Yeah, Donnie. And and so.

Cyprecil what happened to have been in the studio they were cutting five songs for their publishing deal of BMG, and so we offered a singles deal and they sent us the five songs and then it became an album deal.

And so that was such a groundbreaking. If you remember who Hans Soeul was, I met my soul from well you were not the one that yeah, no imagination.

He had like this spiked or this hair.

Well he's a gospel rapper now.

Yeah, but back then, back then, he was part of that that like that school of like like kuame and yeah, that whole.

So we have met Hans so on the on the at the Motown Philly video and Hans lived about maybe twelve blocks away from me, but during the crack area, twelve blocks is you know, well twelve blocks that might be twenty blocks and crackers crackers. So it's like seven pm and he's like, yo, man, I just came back from New York's at he's I came, I came back from New York. Yo, I'm gonna change your life. He said, y'all got to get here. Me and Tarik we were like his little interns, you.

Know whatever, always rolling around.

Hans is really responsible for Tarik being the freestyle aster he is now because Hans used to do that a lot. So we like, all right, it's gonna be nighttime running through West Philly. Somehow we got to Hans's block and he's like he no build up. He just said, listen to this first song he plays the Summertime by Jazz.

He's from the press, Prince and we couldn't guess. He's like, yes, who this.

Is and we still didn't know that was Will and Jeff like by the second verse with rock.

Him and then he puts pigs on ship.

And we were like, what the hell?

We just.

We many have the scanners and everything, and see you know the machine I was telling you about that he mixed Pilson on wax with the quad. Use that for the police scanners, you know, like crazy, Yeah, No, Joe's no joke.

Now that album sucked me up, man, that's.

It, and it came from nowhere.

Well here's here's here's the other thing too. It's that it's that we ship like thirty thousand plus albums.

And you you're seeing the bugs bunny that you know, the thing where he jumps out on stage and there's crickets.

That's what it was like.

It was like nothing, nothing right, And the weeks are going by and it's like, what's going on here, you know, and people.

Are calling DJ's are people we're loving this record? But nothing, and then uh, the B side of the One Killer Man ends up in Juice where omar but he's a Tupaka Shore's character is chasing Omar ev.

You you could watch, you could sit there in the theater and you can suddenly see people like you know, and then it just exploded. Now it's on fifty thousand copies a week, and it's just.

Like because I bought the Juice soundtrack thinking it was on that and it wasn't.

But shoot him up on the Yah.

Yeah, it's just it was just it's it's it was like just a real innovative master.

Wait.

Speaking of studio, for where is uh? Where is Kravits today? Studio for West Coast? He has a studio for in the West.

It's I think it's in Venice Beach. Andy funky drummer, drummer Kravitz.

You know what, I'm going to give props, you know, Andy to me and for where you know what I knew at the time, I just saw.

But the guy was the most incredible gefted musician. You know, him and I, you know, we started out cool, and then there was a period where we didn't get along for a long time, you know, but then later on he ended up moving uh to a house near our our wives, you know, became friends and you know, uh, but he yeah, he started the Studio four West, Studio four West.

Okay, the time that I met you at the one of those Philly Hall of Fame thing, my Jiggers or whatever you you and Roseman.

Was there, yep.

And really, I mean yeah, I was there to see my dad get inducted, but really I was trying to make a bee line to YouTube to see if that I could intern at Studio four. And this is right, this is right on the crest of Chris Cross, like, yeah, about to dominate the world. And yeah, I think you guys hired me on the on the on the on the strength of.

That Chris Ross Cross was blowing up so fast.

Yeah, because my first day there I was I felt like I was part of the Michael Jackson Dangerous Tour.

I was mailing all these I remember.

I remember the first time I ever saw you. You were sitting there at the big conference table. And the thing is, it's a tony. They gave me this Q and a thing for my book, and they you know, they one of the questions was about you and everything. And they said and I said, I remember you had a knapsack on, right.

And you didn't take it off never and I thought.

Like, so, so I'm walking, so I said, you know, this kid's got a knapsack on, like it must be kind of uncomfortable sitting there wearing a knapsack.

Stuffing records and and everything.

And then like I walked past a half hour lady had the knapsack on, and I thought, well, maybe he's afraid that somebody's gonna snatch it if he puts it down.

You know, like you know, I always carry my soundtrack with me every every superhero needs some music.

Yeah, Chris gross record. I'll tell you this.

If if things start blowing up, then it's Tommy and Donnie and Kevin.

Glin Kevin, Kevin's here. Okay, so he seemed philly. Yeah.

So if it's like a major, if it's lynk Q or Larry Ladry, then it's like, oh that's what I.

Felt, lynk Q. That's that's a good.

But you know, if things start getting successful, then it's suddenly sony like, yes, that was all us.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, I'll tell you what it was. It was so funny. What's the politics And well, oh my god, dude, I did.

I was on CNN Power Lunch thing right doing an interview, and then my my cell phone rings and it's an executive from Columbia Records, who I just won't I don't want to embarrass him, so I'm not gonna mention his name. But he was saying, you know, Chris, you know, he goes, I gotta tell you something. You know, Tommy really likes you. I said, yeah, what I like Tommy. Yeah, but you know what, man, you know, Tommy likes his guys to be like, you know, laid back and so this and so.

Here's the thing. This this guy is talking to me.

He's coming through like on this frequency that I'd never heard from him before, you know. And then I kind of put it together that he's sitting there talking to me and Tommy's sitting right there, and then he starts telling me stuff like, well, you know, like you know, Tommy, like you know, he's really like, you know, Tommy's a star, He's a star, and all.

This stuff and this whole thing.

But when Crisscross happened, there was a picture of Tommy, Donnie and Me and Crisscross staying in front of us and Rolling Stone magazine like two weeks.

Later there is the picture, but where did I go.

Oh yeah, it was like that all the time.

Really, yeah, yeah, I got When we get.

To another when we get to another part of the story, I'll tell you something that's really just and I can't believe I had fallen for it.

But but you became a star on your own, right though, Chris, because we see you on and everywhere.

Yeah, but but you know, I wasn't. I wasn't trying. You know, I wasn't trying. I uh But the Criss Cross record, and I'll make I'll make an admission here that you know I talk about in the book. I I didn't like the song that wasn't When we got the Crisscross, Like the demos, they had a song little Boys in the Hood, right, and what it was about it was about two kids twelve years old trying to make that decision.

Okay, well my.

Role models are like, you know, these the gangsters with the clothes and the cash and the cars and ever that do I want to do that? Or do I want to do this? And I thought that was a really interesting thing for a hip hop record, you know,

So Joe goes and puts a bassline on it, and they mix it.

And I was leaving rough house one night and this one we had the one room office, the glass doors, and a fax came to remember facts is Facts comes through and it was from Michael Maldon and said, Chris Jump is going to be a number one song. Smash Michael, I should have kept that. I should have kept it, Okay. So here's what happened. We Rosie Perez was the talent coordinator for In Living Color and Rich had shot Rich

We're my wife and I. I lived on Sitting.

Line Avenue, and my wife and I were at the Overbrook Diner and I was really hungover and my wife was giving me a bunch of shit and.

And I was just like, all I wanted to do was just eat. And you know, it was the weekend. And but I'm hearing this older, middle aged couple sitting Caddy Quarter.

From us, and the guy was going on and on about Crisscross.

Right, this older white guy, he.

Goes, these kids were so amazing and blah blah blah blah blah blah, And I thought, wow.

I looked at Mer and I said, I think this record's gonna this record's gonna blow up. And uh yeah it was. Uh it was like a behemoth.

Can I ask one question about Jump besides the money, but uh, can you clarify something? So obviously my guess is the backstory with Jump around?

Oh yeah, I'll tell you all about.

It, right of course the end of the record Joe the bier Nicola right.

Which, Okay, My my guess is.

That because both acts recorded for rough House not no wait, let me let me get my theory out.

See if.

Because Mugs producer jump Around was also a producer at at Rouse. My guess is and I always wanted to know this because I would do the same thing because the the the same midnight what's the what's the break of of uh pluck tuning midnight Manziel's midnight themes? Yeah, all right, so the midnight theme drums? Uh that Cyprus used on.

Kill a Man? Right?

Uh, that's all Mugs right. My guess is that.

Okay, let me use some you know that some of Mugs's tools were utilized.

Okay, besides the jump say exactly what happened? Okay, so we I passed on a lot of great artists, you know, and I passed on a House of Pain arrest development. What was that, Alicia Keys? I know that's painful. I mean, well now you know, but here's the thing. It's it if if you were there, you know what I mean. But any happen.

Let me let me get back to this story of so so so so we got a we got the demo from MUGS for a House of Pain. Okay, it was good, but it wasn't in our humble estimation at a time there yet. But you know, who can hear what in a demo in this day and age. Right, But here's the bottom line. There was not a song called Jump on that demo. It wasn't there. Okay, number one, number one, number two, right. Amanda Cypress is one half

To Criss Cross, right.

And I was like, that's the most insane thing I ever heard, because Jermaine dupri did everything right, you know.

So she and I said, so where did we steal the song from?

A many?

Oh? Is on the demo?

Right?

And I said really, I said, hold on, right, and I.

Go I got the demo and I'm sitting there on the film with her and I'm listing the songs. I said, so, I'll tell you what's here blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Which one of those songs is? Which one did we take? And she goes, oh, well, the song's called Jump. I said, well, there's no song called jump on this demo. This is what Mugs gave us, right, but they couldn't let it, you know, everlast couldn't let.

It go, couldn't let it Okay, Yeah, and.

Here's the thing. Mugs told me. He never thought Joe Jack the song, he never thought. And the thing is that I can tell you this right now. I mean, Joe Nick Low God bless him. Man, I've known this man. You know intimately there is Joe.

Joe's not.

He doesn't have that thing right to take like he that would require much more time, effort.

And energy and resources to do.

Then Joe wants to expend you know what I mean, He's not He's not that kind of like you know.

What was his reaction when he first heard it?

Oh he loved it. He goes, yes, yeah, no, he said, oh yeah, he goes, you should see it in the video. He gets right up in the camera.

And okay, I always wanted to know. Okay, there's something else. I'm just reminded of explaining nas situation. Yeah, you guys had him first, Yeah, and then what happened?

All right?

So so at this point, you know, we're when we got to Sony right to Clumb it with CBS at the time, it was like, you know, there's death Jam and there's you guys, right, and you're it. We're not doing any other hip hop right. And the next week we go up for our first meetings of like people like Angela Thomas or product manager, and I'll never forget Angela Thomas was eating a salad and Kevin Woodley walks us in and he goes, yeah, this is a Chris

Just did a deal with.

And Angela's kind of like she's got her mouthful of food because she just found out that they did Russia Associated labels, which is like thirty companies, right you. And she goes and she's like looking and she's like, oh, another label, and you could just see that that look on her face so so deaf jam. Then something happened and they left, they got you know, they went to they went through a renegotiation and it just didn't work out,

It's there.

So so h mc search uh wanted to sign Nas now a couple of months prior to this. Uh there's a guy that he he was the manager of.

A club called Revival, Philly. Yeah, Greg mcgara, Yeah, yeah, I lived at Revival. I was like, I was there all the time.

Greg was the manager and we used to hang out to the wee hours and you know, and he constantly played me.

This record.

Live at the Barbecue, right, and he said, you know, you should find this kid Nas and sign him. But like, I know that this label, Wild Pitch was owned by Stu Fine, and I said, he's already signed. He's already signed to Wild Pitch, you know. So so I just that was it?

Right?

And so I get a phone call from Donnie Einer and he goes, Look, he goes, I want to introduce you to Search. He's got this artist that that you should, you know, look.

At, named Nas. I was like, oh really, so awesome.

Yeah.

So Search comes down the Philadelphia with Faith Newman and Nas. We go to the Spaghetti Warehouse.

After midnight, post the post, after post the original after midnight. I know those guys that ran Oh my god, all right, so so we uh we we do this deal and uh it was two things where we signed NOAs and we also did the deal for.

The soundtrack as Zebrahead and uh.

The first thing we do if NAS was halftime uh Rich Murray, Uh production protege James Brummel did the video for like three thousand dollars, you know, and then stuff started happening, you know, and uh, you know.

John Scheckter. Let me go back to an earlier part of the Source.

When I was we had the school D Records right, Uh, I was sending out thousands of records to retailers besides, you.

Know, to do stuff.

I mailed out the first issue of the Source in the school D Records package. So I knew John and Dave, Dave Mays and John Scheckter. And John Scheckter came down and his mission was to get a copy of the NAS songs, and I gave him like, I think five songs and then uh, I think he was like the first artist to get X amount of microphones and the Source or whatever.

So now now shout out to miss info.

Now there's a huge, huge thing happening with NAS. Right, everybody's excited, you know. And I get a phone call. Rose comes in and says, oh, Chris, I was just told by somebody at Columbia that that NAS was gonna be on Columbia proper.

And I was like, well, how's that he signed to us? He's contracted to us, it's our you know.

And uh I we called up Donnie and Joe and I go up there and Donnie shows us a it's a fax from Tommy and the subject.

Matter is why is NAS signed to rough House?

Right?

So here's what happened.

Search bought it to Columbia, and Columbia said, oh, we'll do it, but it has to be on rough House. Why because if it fails, then we end up eating it from our pipeline revenues. Right, It's no risk for them to put it on us, you know, And it backfired on them.

It backfires continues. Yeah, sounds it feel like being their red headed step kid, like the red Headed step bitches, you know, was it not?

I mean, were they not?

Because as a label on their own, they weren't. They weren't doing jack.

With hip hop. Yeah, I know, I know, but but here's what it is.

Here's what it is.

After was all said and done, you know, Donnie shows me this facts, right, and it's from Tommy and it says he's saying, quote unquote you fucking asshole. Right, that is what it's hit and exclamation points and underlined right. And Donnie was like, you know, Chris, I'm like in a thing here, can you please help us out?

And so we did a deal.

We let them, We let them buy us out. Should we have done it?

You know, here's the thing it was, looking back in retrospect, probably not. But at the same time, it was kind of hard to say no when this is a guy who's kind of like your partner at the thing and everything, and you know, we hed done a lot for us and everything, and it was just a thing.

And then I remember later on Faith Newman, you know, kind of.

Conceded is that, you know, Chris, I said, part of the pressure with this is that is that we have nothing for Columbia proper, you know. And what they I guess they didn't want to see was that if rough House suddenly ups and leaves one day the way def Jam did, and can imagine like half your revenue stream walking out the door, right, you know, because you know, it doesn't for like really like a ten year period of time.

We were their black music department, so so so, so yeah, that's what happened.

But you know, it's funny. I would see Nas like over. I saw himong like over in Europe and everything, and he always said, he goes man, he goes. I just wanted to just stay on rough House so bad, and you know, and it's crazy. Yeah, so but he gave me a nice shout out in the Surviving the Times.

My last day at rough House. Uh, two things happened. One freaking I don't even know if you're aware of this. My last day at rough House was Santy Gold's first day at rough House. Oh wow, as working under Da Vida gar right, and yeah, it was kind of like that dream Weaver moment like in Wayne's World.

Yeah, who is that?

I don't mean to creepy out Santi, Sorry, it was a long time. Santi was like she was Day of the Century. And Davida asked me for a favor and said, hey, uh, at you guys's signing party in two weeks, could you let one of our new acts open for you guys?

And I was like, okay, who is it and she gives me.

Blunted on reality, which at that point, which at that point was like it was a quiet two months. Like I was gonna say, nappy Heads didn't even have the remix yet. Early in the game, I knew when I saw the eight x ten because of the way that soap operas running my family's houses. Yeah, I was like, oh, that's the joint from As the World turn Yeah. Yeah, I didn't even know about Sister Act too yet. Sacha knew her as the trouble kid for me As the World Turns, So I loved it.

I was like, yeah, hell yeah, let her do it.

So how did like, so the fujis came to my attention two weeks like Thanksgiving of November ninety three, but she told me that you guys had had them long before that.

Oh yeah, so how did you guys? We actually Roseman?

Okay?

Yeah, I mean, I I just you know, I'm real big on giving credit where credits.

Due, you know, And was Roseman officially A and R? Like what was her job at? You know, who's an an R guy anymore?

You know what I mean?

Label?

You know, Monica Lynch said the best music to came the biggest records that came the Tommy Boy came through their guy in the Puerto Rican guy in the mailroom, you know what I mean.

Yeah. So, so.

Remember the TV commercial Uh, I guess it was in the late eighties, early nineties. Uh, the the guys in the cab and the cab driver in New York City has the dreads.

You know they showed that commercial. That's Hassan Scherie, Hassan Hassan. He was in Sphead, Yes, yeah, yeah, he always Oh yeah, so that's I guess that's a Zebrahead party. Is where he met Rose.

Wow, and so he had night during their premiere.

I guess I don't. I don't know how she meant him. That must have been because I rented a bus and took us all to New York City.

I did. And that's that's the that's the ill fated night where.

I remember Clark Kent went back and forth on in Vogue's hold On Nas freestyled, I have my one moment with romy with Nasty Nas back. You know, that was my one moment when I thought it was going to be emc and I gave it up after that for real. Uh, well, I just ad minute. This is twenty five years later. So you know, I hope nobody recorded that ship.

But so he met her that night, he must have. That's crazy.

So so what happened was she bugged the ship out of me for for a long time. She goes, you got to hear this. Listen to this group. Listen to scroup, Listen to group. So I'm in my car.

And I put this tape in and the first thing that caught me was it like, oh, it's not like hip hop. Like it's hip hop, but there's you know, it had a whole different thing about it.

And and then and and so, well you're familiar with that because you also have the goats.

Yeah.

Yeah, So so I thought, I thought, all right, so this is something a little bit unique and different. I didn't know their Haitian. You know, I'm embarrassed to say this. You know, I thought it was Jamaican. You know.

This, what's new. So we go to the uh we we.

Joe and I go up to their audition at David Sonenberg's office on the Upper East Side in this.

Townhouse and.

And there was like seven or eight people and but here's what what basically the thing that right away was that why Cleft the beat box and the acoustic guitar, and it was like, Okay, this is a little different, this is like and that That's what did.

It for me.

You know, you didn't hear a note from Lauren's now I'm I talked about in the book. I don't even remember her from the audition. And here's the thing. When we went, there was like six or seven kids, and at the end of the audition, why Clef like, it's now stripped doll's clothes off.

He's in his boxers, going nuts and everything.

And I'd found out later on they had a dussion for every major and independent we were their last shot. They said we were at So when we went to do the contracts, it was there was only three people and I was like, well, wait, what were where were all these other people that were there?

Right?

And so anyhow we did the album. Uh, most of my dialogue was with y Cleff and the manager, David Sonenberg. And when we got when I got the first batch of songs, it was really weird because like Prose was like the dominant rapper and I thought, you know, Prose was good, but he no, no, no, he he I'll tell you, but you're ready or not, you have to admit he's what he does on that track. Yeah, but

I'm like, oh shit, I gotta talk. But I said, fuck it. You know, lit a cigarette.

You got Cleft on the phone, and I said, yo, man, I said, it's cool, but is there any way that you know, blah blah blah.

It's diplomatic? Is possible? Clubs? Oh yeah, man, I got you right.

Like a week later, different different thing. You know, pause is more pushed to the back, you know.

Uh.

And that first album and the touring and here here's the thing, man, you know, I always said this. There was like three groups, three hip hop groups from that day. The tour that was the Fujis Psychercil and the Roots constant touring. Yeah you're a constant god, those were they. I merried Scott Thomas, you know Scott Thomas over in the UK. Booking agent. Yeah, he would tell me, he said, he goes, yeah, all through those he you would always say those artists, those are the ones you know, Uh

A thread, but by like a spiderweb thread like it was.

Uh, they did a show in London and I wasn't at the show. But Luke Verge, who later on became head of every like he became my guy for Europe for everything. He was our He was head of international marketing for Columbia Records. He called, he's He's from Marseille and he calls me kiss.

He was roaded a cat back with these guys.

Last night.

They're talking about dropping.

You must do something, you know, and uh I called up Donnie and uh I said, Donnie, I said that they were gonna win Grammys.

We just got it.

We gotta stay with we gotta do this and.

Stay with it and everything and do you know what it is like the lack of faith, because the thing is, I would even like to think that, like, Okay, the money by this point, you know, you have some gratitude because the money's good.

You guys are doing the numbers.

Yeah, Yet it's like each time out the out the gate.

Well, no, I'll tell you this, at this point, at that point, I had a lot of confidence in the relation.

I'll tell you this.

When it when the first the first five years at Columbia, right, I was I was the wimpy kid, you know.

I was easily easily bullied and and and you know, talk to to ship.

In another diplomatic way. How how approachable is Tommy And is he one of the guys or is you know what you'd be like, hey, yo, but you.

Kind of I got I got a little little story that that I'll get into. All right.

So so.

Lauren this record, right, the Miseducation of Lauren Hill.

Yes, okay, uh, we allowed to talk about that record in here.

No, the record, the record that the project is the vehicle for the story, right, but that she she was going to Japan to do a show for the Sony executives. We had just did this whole thing in in in the UK, and and I was going I was going with her to Japan. And this is shortly after my remember the phone call from the executives about you know, I am all right right, yes, so she's so we got this big thing happening, bought my ticket, all ready to go, and I get a phone call and it's

She gives me a hey. I said, ah, impossible, I'm going to be over in Japan with with miss Hill, right, And she goes, oh, well, Tommy is really asking if you could, you know, make this It's really really.

Important, you know.

And I'm like, and I'm thinking, wow, Like, how can I say no?

All right?

So I said, all right.

I go in the clickman's office and I said, yeah, it looks like I'm not going to the thing in Japan with miss I'm doing the Tommy wants to have this really important meeting with Danny DeVito. And all this stuff, and Kevin just laughs at me and he goes, he goes, Yeah, what's going to happen.

The plane's going to take off.

And then they're going to cancel.

They're get to canceled the meeting. I said, I said, Nah, it ain't gonna happen, something like that. And of course the plane takes off. Call Oh, Danny had to do some reshoots.

You know, and and so and so.

How else could I look at this right and to think that that he didn't want me meeting the Sony guy, the Sony you know over there.

But you know, the reality is like what what what would I do? You know, I'm just you know, what am I going to talk to these guys about? You know, I'm just there as part of the you know, with her and the show and everything. But but but you know, here's the reality. I could never prove this in a court of law, and it's only speculation on my part. But you know, but the only thing I could say, if that meeting was just so fucking important, how come

Your breaking point, because you said that you probably was a pushover for the first like five years.

But what was the moment when you were like it was the I guess the breaking the breaking point where it's no, I didn't suddenly become nasty and mean, it was just sort of when when you really like, I'll tell you this, there's a guy, uh, his name is Chris Blackwell, and he's the founder of Island Records. He's one of my best friends, and he's been my mentor for years. And when you really get a grasp of the type of money that those companies make, it's it's, uh, it's mind boggling.

Uh.

For instance, at the time, you know a major distribution power M right, Well, there's manufacturing costs, right, you deduct that you pay for your manufacturing. The company that's manufacturing the record is the same company, but you're paying, but you're paying for the man you like. In other words, they're paying you're you're paying them to manufacture. You're not

Yeah, well it's guy's got the.

Biggest He was an accountant, big shouted him out on the ones.

What Bert Padell was that, you know, when you go to do a co venture right as a label, they just don't get it to you. You know remember when Andre herald the fifty million dollar thing, right, they don't. Yeah, they just don't. When you renegotiate, you got it. You have to come to them with a whole plan, like a prospectus. You have to have projections, you have to have a pro forma, You got to have all that stuff.

Whoever the board of whatever whatever it is. But that's part of the process like in any business. Right.

So so when I when we did our finally did the co venture, uh, I had to get Bert Padell to help us put that stuff together because he's got he's got.

All that stuff. But what I the reason I bring him up is that the majors is that were they one place that they really get you at that time when we have when we relying on the physical product, which was the lifeblood of the business was international internationally. You think about it, you everything is all computerized.

So and somebody renegotiates a record dealer or something, you'd say, okay for international, We're going to get this particular royalty rate and they raise it by you know, a couple pointsever But somehow somebody forgets to put that in the royalty accounting program.

Right, So then when you go back and you do a.

So we audit, you would believe the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars that you find and Roughhouse if we were anything else worldwide, we were one of the biggest hip hop labels in the world because our artists were massive, you know, and and you know, we were making so much money for them. And so that's at that point I just kind of felt like, you know, I I knew you know what I mean. So that gave me a lot of confidence and and you know, dealing with them.

So what did you When did you officially leave Sony.

Uh in nineteen ninety nine.

Oh wow, right after right after during the I was having I was having meetings with in La with like uh David Geffen uh, heads of like e am I and Warner Brothers.

The day after the Grammys. Yeah, I forgot because with rough Nation, yeah uh uh? And then Proud of from Yeah that record, dude, you should see that. You should see the video they did with Liz Lighty. It's it's incredibly rich. Shot it in this place in Delaware. It's like it's a white psych.

That goes around the room and it's a camera that's on this like robotic thing. So the way it's one continuous shot. So you see this video and you see like hundreds of people in it, but there's no edit.

Oh, it just keeps going.

It just keeps going, and it's this whole system with the computer and the camera. That's a really awesome video. I can't find it though online.

So where did you?

Where did Rough Nation?

Was that?

Warner or Warner?

Okay?

I want to be the guy to bring black music back to Warners.

That was my goal.

It wasn't even about money.

I actually took less money to go with Warners because and to me, the last real things in regards to black music of any significance was iced Tea in prints, right, and if you want to talk about cold chilling, I'm not sure, but you know that that was it, And I felt like if I could come there and kind of inject that rough House DNA into into the gig, you know that I could do something significant.

So at the time when I started at rough House, you guys were just implementing a new system. Sound Scan hadn't really started yet, right, So every day I'm hearing all your people call and saying, hey, I need five hundred pieces reported in Billboard for this.

And it was a little more subtle than that.

But my point was then there was a point two months later, Oh yeah, where all that stopped. I'm like, wait, how come you guys aren't And people are being letting go because they're like, well, we have sound scan now, we don't need that more.

How crazy when the chick when they went, when it went from from regular, when it went from the bullshit charts, the sound scan suddenly labels like us where the King of the he look right right, we sat there, man, You're you're trying, you're you're working a record and you're legitimately selling records and yet you're like trying to break an artist and you're in the one hundred and ten spot and Billboard. But then you see some god awful thing like sitting at number fourteen that you know is

So how do you feel now today?

Uh, the way streaming is and stream Facebook likes, Instagram blaks.

Yeah, yeah, it's just overwhelming you Well now, you know, it's funny, not as much as I thought, like, say, a month ago.

Uh, you know, I have I somebody I.

Started Twitter account and Instagram count like years ago, but never paid attention. Then I just started looking like a couple of weeks ago and it's like I had over a thousand followers on each. I said, oh, that's a nice little start, you know, And so I just started figuring how to do that. I never paid attention to that stuff. But in terms of the industry, I'll tell you what I think is. First off, when the whole thing, you know, digital and streaming for the first time since

And that that's a big thing. I mean, what would that have been twenty years ago. Point independent artists, no I'm not artists not signed to record labels.

Artists putting out music make up eighteen percent of global music revenues. And so this year is the I guess, I think it's the third year that global music revenues have taken a northernly upturn, you know, because let's face it, ever since the death now the stranglehold in the early two thousands, you know. But so yeah, so it's it's growing,

And so in walking I've never spoken to anyone that once had a label and then walked away from the distribution deal whatever. So what happens to like a group like Cypress Hill will be a legacy act, so that album will continue to sell over and over.

But they they brought us out, they bought the artists.

They yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, because the yeah, because it was ninety nine, so yeah, the Carnival that wasn't rough House.

That was rough it was Yeah. As a matter of fact, I paid for that record personally when we started.

Oh wow, I love that album, and that's like, well that was Here's the.

Thing, you know, they they didn't like the carnival when I when I when I went to the meeting, When I went, when I when I went, Now when I went to the first meeting.

Here's what happened, Why Clef, Why Cleff.

Originally I'd gone to Haiti a couple of times with them, right, and we had this idea to do a Haitian traditional Haitian kind of pop record, right, but mix it with some like hip hop and everything.

And it was this wasn't going to be like what we call frontline release. This was going to be like an independent project.

I was going to maybe see if Chris blackwell when you get involved with it on palm and stuff. So we start doing this record and then next thing, you know,

He handed it back to.

Were staying alive on there? Uh no, no, but.

No no. But he handed it back and he goes, I don't know, he goes sounds like something like vacation.

Music or something, and I'm like think, going, yeah, now we got the orchestra going and ship.

But Larry worked on that one too, right, yeah he did. He did. Wow, I love that album.

Man. Oh yeah, it's a brilliant record. Man, it really is, really is. But but here's the thing that that the miseducation was the really that was the struggle.

That was, like they first off, they didn't want a solo record from her, yet they wanted another Fuji's record, And of course, who could blame them, right, another Fuji's Record's gonna sell eleventy billion, you know whatever?

But the the.

They say said, okay, so now she's a good dual record, but we want we want Puffy, we want this.

We want all these.

And the problem was I, you know, I had a a thing at my house like a barbecue, and I invited her to come, not thinking that she would come, you know, And her mother called me up and says, oh, yeah, we're coming out, and I was like, oh, okay, so and she came. We hung out for a little bit

And it's like cool all this.

And when.

We I was in Bath, England with my wife and it was like three o'clock in the morning and the phone rings and I knew who it was.

I knew it was gonna be Tommy and Donnie and I had given them the five songs, five or six songs.

And five six songs from Miseducation. Yeah okay, and they said, and.

Tommy's on Speak, Donnie was on speaker phone. He goes, yeah, Tommy and I listened to the record and we think the songs.

Are very, very very mediocre.

Oh now now I hang up and in whatever, I hang up, and I'm.

Sitting there in the dark, right and my wife's asleep, and she's like, Chris, what's the matter? I said, they don't like to record, you know.

And I'm like, and you know, but you got it. This is but see for me, you know, Okay, I like I said, Yeah, I talk all this bravado.

About my dealings with them and everything, but still these are two guys who are, for the all intensive purposes, pretty powerful guys in the music business, you know, who have years and years.

Of an experience, you know.

But the one thing that that I held on too was that they were wrong about the Cleft record, completely wrong about that. And the record was good. It was just like it just like, how how could they? You know?

I didn't.

I didn't.

Okay, this is the thing, though, I don't think it matters if it's good or bad. Could they no, no, no, I'm just saying, but it's the truth. Could they not see that it was going to be effective?

Like?

How could they not?

Because she could have done any okay by that point.

Because they would have because these guys, right, I always used to say that.

I used to tell her this all the time earlier on.

I used to say, you could sing over five minutes of static kiss and it'll be a hit record. But they lived, They live in these monolithic glass and steel places where everything is about radio and Greatest Gainer and weekly this and all that, and everything is formatted and this and that, right, And it's like, yeah, but the thing is, like I saw both the Carnival and miseducation these to me, this was like circa nineteen sixty eight.

WMMR FM radio. Like you know, this isn't about this is about a body of work, you know, And this is the thing is. It's like.

I felt that that I wasn't thinking not thinking singles, you know, I'm thinking this. But you know, Michael Maldon was. You know, we did a white label twelve inch for Lost Ones.

We did it.

Rough House did it. Clumby had nothing to do with it, and we didn't even tell him about it. We just did it and we sent out it was her idea and we sent that out and oh my god.

The ship hit the fan. All right, yeah, they ship hit the I mean there. Oh well, here's the thing.

They were angry or Michael Maldon was angry, you know, because I you know, let's face it, he was had a black music department and I just and I just went and did that ship, right, But he said, Donnie's gonna get ready to blow up your phone.

But you know what, I never heard from Donnie.

You don't know why, because now, no, I never heard from Donnie because it was so incredible.

The way it started, the whole thing. It was like that song lost Ones. What a perfect entree vus for a project like that.

But they've literally had doubts that the album is going to work, even though oh yeah, so how do they feel about the score of then?

Oh no, no, well well no, no, not at all. But but I'll tell you this.

They they wanted they they wanted. Not only did they want that that all that crazy you know, commercial production. They they definitely wanted an a nineties female R and B singer style photography. Yeah, it's like sont so, so think about this, think about think about what the cover is, and think about what they're thinking about.

Yeah, album, it's can have been another cover. Yeah, yeah, no, it was.

Like and no, they eventually they gave in because I know this that there was a there was a marketing meeting and Miguel B. Gower and a bunch of people in the room all said that the anticipation and the early feedback and everything was that this record was not only going to be critically acclaimed, it was going to be massive and everything.

And then then, of course, you know, because it was lost ones and to do to do.

Yeah, I just can't believe that they didn't know that they had it easy. Yeah, especially after killing.

Well, you know, killing Me Softly was never even uh, it was never supposed to be a single. Fuji's didn't didn't even really want their song on the record, and and they didn't want to promote it, as you know they did.

We did a video and and it just they hated it.

So we shot it with them in the movie theater throwing popcorn at each other like like a non video video.

Right.

But yeah, that song, you couldn't stop it was that all love That wasn't on Love Jones.

That wasn't you think the sweetest thing. I think it's possible that both can be, right, I mean it's not. I'm not one of these die hard Then that album changed my technically, that album actually changed my life in a technical sense. It affected my life. But I think I'm just shocked that they couldn't see that this was a no brainer.

Well, they just they were you know what, I'll tell you this.

They didn't trust their record to have all of it to be pulled off by her and her alone, Okay, because at that point she had gotten rid of her management. She was disassociated with everything and everybody up there except me, right, and that was it. So it was kind of like, you know, they they would have loved that that the A list, R and B nineties hip producers.

You know, they didn't realize that she was the answer to the coming backlash that no one saw coming up.

Yeah.

Yeah. And the thing is I heard all sorts of stories.

Uh somebody said that, you know that Puffy had this big meeting and pulled everybody into a room and held up the record and says this is where we need to be going and all this stuff, and.

It just it really, you know, that's crazy. Yeh. How did the lawsuits and stuff affect you guys? If it all.

I don't want to.

I don't want to say anything, you know, I know I knew Beta, right, But here's here's a simple reoity the fact that they claimed that they wrote lyrics and everything. How How because I know these songs and I know everything that she's talking about in the songs. You know, moving records on South Orange Ave right, Okay, I used to take records there, you know, to move in records on South Orange, AZ.

So why would why would those guys come up with that reference in that song? Why would they? How could they have wrote lost?

Like?

It's so crazy? But here's the biggest.

Thing, right, and and here's what it is, in the nutshell, if they, in fact were the ones who made this monumental contribution to this production, well why haven't they made a similar monumental contribution to somebody else's production since you know what I mean?

And make Yeah, that's uh, you know, I guess with all these due respect, James is not here too.

Oh no, no, James, James. I know what James DIDs. James he wrote the thing because I'm like, after a while, it was just like Lauren did everything, and then people was like, wait a minute.

Hold up, Yeah, yeah, but I don't think one person does everything yet do everything?

Yeah, exactly, but it was a nice mark. It was needed at the time.

I'll tell you what I know of some major, major market name producers who are out there who are given the ultimate credit for projects that they basically, yeah, they would come in and listen to some mixes and say okay, do this and do that and go home.

And there's quite a few of them, and they rely on a lot of people the team. Right.

Yeah about Wow, the lessons we learned today, Well, Chris, we thank you, thank you, thank you, thank.

You, thank you.

Yet this year is the anniversary of rough House.

No, yeah, I was like, wow, you know, we're just yes, we're what we're trying to do is to figure out the research.

You get a definitive date and we're going to probably use when we really just started with Columbia.

Is the real anniversary because that's when all the records. Yeah, yeah, that would be yeah, thirty, it will be thirty.

We talk about DMX.

I forgot about how did you find DMX and why did y'all not uh we did a we.

We well, you know, you know what the biggest problem was, we never like it was a good song, but we didn't have the like I never really got to.

Hang out with him or anything, you know. And we did this song Born Loser, which at the time it was it was a good track for when you look at the time when that came out, Yeah, that was good. But we only did a singles deal. And I think what happened was that by the time we started trying to figure out what the next move was, something had already elapsed.

And I know that the rough Riders had already And you know, I'll tell you this, I didn't get upset or anything because well, if I if I was so like, you know, like, if.

This was something that was important to me, I'd have been up on it.

You know. Wow, who knew? Yeah, well, I'll end on.

All right, Chris, We thank you very much. Thank you for.

The bills, Sugar, Steve and Laya. This Quest Love, Quest Love Supreme and we will see you on the next go round, all right.

Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.