Ben Callahan (00:04)
Hello, system thinkers. Welcome to The Question. The Question is a live collaborative learning show committed to broadening your perspective on design systems. I'm your host, Ben Callahan, founder of Sparkbox and Redwood's Design System Community. And you're listening to the episode 074 Deep Dive with Kaelig Deloumeau-Pregent on the topic of AI and design system visibility. If you have a moment, please get subscribed to the show.
out of bencallahan.com/thequestion Let's get into it.
Ben Callahan (00:39)
⁓ tell me...
ep074 screen raw (00:39)
⁓ tell me.
ep074 speaker raw (00:39)
⁓ tell me...
Ben Callahan (00:41)
A little bit about your background. want to know what got you into design systems. Well, first off, thank you so much, Ben, for having me. ⁓ I think this world really needed a two bald bearded man show talking about systems. Yes, perfect. We did it. We did it. We made it happen. ⁓ And I also want to commend you on the active listening that you show and you model through these sessions.
ep074 screen raw (00:41)
A little bit about your background. want to know what got you into design systems. Well, first off, thank you so much, Ben, for having me. I think this world really needed a too bold bearded man show talking about systems. Yes, perfect. We did it. We did it. We made it happen. ⁓ And I also want to commend you on the active listening that you show and you model through these sessions.
ep074 speaker raw (00:41)
A little bit about your background. want to know what got you into design systems. Well, first off, thank you so much, Ben, for having me. ⁓ I think this world really needed a too bold bearded man show talking about systems. Yes, perfect. We did it. We did it. We made it happen. ⁓ And I also want to commend you on the active listening that you show and you model through these sessions.
Ben Callahan (01:11)
It's just amazing. Like I aspire to be as good of an active listener as you are. It's very kind, Kaelig Like, thank Appreciate
ep074 screen raw (01:11)
It's just amazing. Like I aspire to be as good of an active listener as you are. It's very kind, Kay. Like, thank Appreciate
ep074 speaker raw (01:11)
It's just amazing. Like I aspire to be as good of an active listener as you are. It's very kind, Kay. Like, thank Appreciate
Ben Callahan (01:19)
A little bit about myself. yeah, humble beginnings in the West of France. I started my career in a small web agency back in 2007. Before that, I was making websites since I was pretty little. And I just wanted to make stuff. And even when I didn't have the internet on my machine, I really
ep074 screen raw (01:19)
A little bit about myself. yeah, I humble beginnings in the West of France. I started my career in a small web agency back in 2007. Before that, I was making websites since I was pretty little. And I just wanted to make stuff. And even when I didn't have the internet on my machine, I really
ep074 speaker raw (01:19)
A little bit about myself. yeah, humble beginnings in the West of France. I started my career in a small web agency back in 2007. Before that, I was making websites since I was pretty little. And I just wanted to make stuff. And even when I didn't have the internet on my machine, I really
Ben Callahan (01:40)
I was making web pages and active desktop backgrounds, those kind of things. But anyway, so the thread towards design systems is that as I was at that web agency, the seed of efficiency and improving quality and craft project after project was already planted. ⁓ I was looking at how do I put one project after another
ep074 screen raw (01:40)
I was making web pages and active desktop backgrounds, those kind of things. But anyway, so the thread towards design systems is that as I was at that web agency, the seed of efficiency and improving quality and craft ⁓ project after project was already planted. ⁓ I was looking at how do I put one project after another,
ep074 speaker raw (01:40)
I was making web pages and active desktop backgrounds, those kind of things. But anyway, so the thread towards design systems is that as I was at that web agency, the seed of efficiency and improving quality and craft project after project was already planted. ⁓ I was looking at how do I put one project after another
ep074 screen raw (02:02)
⁓ never start from scratch again, because most websites are the same anyway.
Ben Callahan (02:02)
Never start from scratch again because most websites are the same anyway.
ep074 speaker raw (02:02)
Never start from scratch again because most websites are the same anyway.
Ben Callahan (02:06)
It's just there's a few pages and about page or contact form this kind of things But so I started creating systems and reusable bits already at that time and then after five years at a web agency I and I wrote a book about CSS and how SAS and compass can help you for those like og Designs stem people that's gonna seem familiar, but
ep074 speaker raw (02:06)
It's just there's a few pages and about page or contact form this kind of things But so I started creating systems and reusable bits already at that time and then after five years at a web agency I and I wrote a book about CSS and how SAS and compass can help you for those like og Designs stem people that's gonna seem familiar, but
ep074 screen raw (02:06)
I think it's just a few pages, an about page, a contact form, those kind of things. But so I started creating systems and reusable bits already at that time. And then after five years at a web agency, I wrote a book about CSS and how SAS and Compass can help you for those OG design STEM people that's going to seem familiar.
But how do you get designers and developers to speak the same language thanks to various CSS architectural techniques?
Ben Callahan (02:30)
How do you get designers and developers to speak the same language thanks to various CSS architectural techniques?
ep074 speaker raw (02:30)
How do you get designers and developers to speak the same language thanks to various CSS architectural techniques?
Ben Callahan (02:36)
So from there, I felt like I'd been there, done that. After five years of building sites, day after day after day, emailing campaigns, those kind of things, I wanted to have a baby product that I could care for and I could put a lot of love into day after day. And so I moved to London, joined the BBC.
ep074 speaker raw (02:36)
So from there, I felt like I had been there, done that. ⁓ After five years of building sites day after day after day, emailing campaigns, those kind of things, I wanted to have a baby product that I could care for and I could put a lot of love into day after day. And so I moved to London, joined the BBC.
ep074 screen raw (02:36)
So from there, I felt like I had been there, done that. I, ⁓ after five years of building sites, day after day after day, emailing campaigns, those kinds of things, I wanted to have a baby product that I could care for and I could put a lot of love into day after day. And so I moved to London, joined the BBC
Ben Callahan (02:59)
And over there, for the first time in my life, interacted with a proper UX global design language team.
ep074 speaker raw (02:59)
And over there, for the first time in my life, interacted with a proper UX global design language team.
ep074 screen raw (02:59)
and over there for the first time in my life interacted with a proper UX, like global design language team.
And they were going through full responsive redesign. And they didn't have the primitives to think about responsiveness at the time. It was 2012. It was very early stages of responsiveness. And so interacted with that team to build things like the grid, think about typography, and how that scales across all screens. And I was hooked. I was like, OK.
Ben Callahan (03:07)
And they were going through full responsive redesign. And they didn't have the primitives to think about responsiveness at the time. It was 2012. It was very early stages of responsiveness. And so interacted with that team to build things like the grid, think about typography, and how that scales across all screens. And I was hooked. I was like, OK.
ep074 speaker raw (03:07)
they were going through full responsive redesign. And they didn't have the primitives to think about responsiveness at the time. It was 2012. It was very early stages of responsiveness. And so interacted with that team to build things like the grid, think about typography, and how that scales across all screens. And I was hooked. I was like, OK.
ep074 screen raw (03:29)
I've worked on style guides and component libraries, but this is properly funded teams that do that full time.
Ben Callahan (03:29)
I've worked on style guides and component libraries, this is properly funded teams that do that full time.
ep074 speaker raw (03:29)
I've worked on style guides and component libraries, but this is properly funded teams that do that full time.
That's just amazing. And I could see, and then there's a few also CSS architectural techniques that I implemented there that are now still being used at BBC across all of BBC. Then the guardian was looking at what I was doing at BBC. They were like, come on over, we're going to do the same thing. But then over there, I got a taste of,
Ben Callahan (03:36)
That's just amazing. And I could see, and then there's a few also CSS architectural techniques that I implemented there that are now still being used at BBC across all of BBC. Then the guardian was looking at what I was doing at BBC. They were like, come on over, we're going to do the same thing. But then over there, I got a taste of,
ep074 screen raw (03:36)
It's just amazing. I could see, and then there's a few also CSS architectural techniques that I implemented there that are now still being used at BBC across all of BBC. Then the guardian was looking at what I was doing at BBC. They were like, come on over, we're going to do the same thing. But then over there, I got a taste of
Ben Callahan (03:58)
of shipping a lot faster. And so how do you ship faster, but also improve craft and quality? Again, there's ways of doing design systems that
ep074 speaker raw (03:58)
of shipping a lot faster. And so how do you ship faster, but also improve craft and quality? Again, there's ways of doing design systems that
ep074 screen raw (03:58)
shipping a lot faster. And so how do you ship faster, but also improve craft and quality? Again, there's ways of doing design systems that.
Ben Callahan (04:06)
help with that. ⁓ And then Financial Times was looking at that and they were like, hey, if we had a fully funded team, would you like to join? ⁓ And so I ended up on a properly funded design system team over there. They were very engineering driven. And the connection with design was
ep074 speaker raw (04:06)
help with that. And then Financial Times was looking at that and they were like, hey, if we had a fully funded team, would you like to join? ⁓ And so I ended up on a properly funded design system team over there. ⁓ They were very engineering driven. And the connection with design was
ep074 screen raw (04:06)
help with that. And then Financial Times was looking at that and they were like, hey, if we had a fully funded team, would you like to join? ⁓ And so I ended up on a properly funded design stem team over there. They were very engineering driven. And ⁓ the connection with design was
something to be mended. So I joined in ⁓ and I fixed that relationship between design and engineering.
Ben Callahan (04:27)
something to be amended. So I joined in ⁓ and I fixed that relationship between design and engineering.
ep074 speaker raw (04:27)
something to be amended. So I joined in ⁓ and I fixed that relationship between design and engineering.
Ben Callahan (04:34)
And then my wife moved to California, so I thought I might as well follow her because I love this woman. Why not? And joined Salesforce ⁓ to work on the Lightning Design System. Shout out to Jina who asked me the question. I was just visiting town, and she was like, so you're going to be looking for a job, right?
ep074 speaker raw (04:34)
And then my wife moved to California, so I thought I might as well follow her because I love this woman. Why not? And joined Salesforce ⁓ to work on the Lightning Design System. ⁓ Shout out to Gina, who asked me the question. I was just visiting town, and she was like, so you're going to be looking for a job, right?
ep074 screen raw (04:34)
And then my wife moved to California, so I thought I might as well follow her ⁓ because I love this woman. Why not? And joined Salesforce ⁓ to work on the Lightning Design System. ⁓ Shout out to Gina, who asked me the question. I was just visiting town, and she was like, so you're going to be looking for a job, right?
I like, at some point. Next thing you know, I have an offer from Salesforce.
Ben Callahan (04:57)
It's like at some point. Next thing you know, I have an offer from Salesforce.
ep074 speaker raw (04:57)
It's like at some point. Next thing you know, I have an offer from Salesforce.
Ben Callahan (05:02)
Back in those days, just offers were raining from the sky. Good times. And then after a couple years there, the scale of design systems at Salesforce is unfathomable. It was one of the first flagship design systems out there. And again, it got me hooked. Then I moved to Shopify that was shipping way, way faster than
ep074 speaker raw (05:02)
Back in those days, just offers were raining from the sky. Good times. And then after a couple years there, the scale of design systems at Salesforce is unfathomable. It was one of the first flagship design systems out there. And again, it got me hooked. Then I moved to Shopify that was shipping way, way faster than
ep074 screen raw (05:02)
Back in those days, just offers were raining from the sky, good times. And then after a couple years there where like the scale of design systems at Salesforce is unfathomable. it was one of the first flagship design systems out there. And again, it got me hooked. Then I moved to Shopify that was shipping way, way faster than
a Salesforce with different problems to solve.
Ben Callahan (05:26)
than a Salesforce with different problems to solve.
ep074 speaker raw (05:26)
than a Salesforce with different problems to solve.
And there I founded the UX tooling team where I worked on ⁓ all the things that have to do with DevOps for design systems. So the end-to-end shipping pipelines over there. ⁓ And then after five years, ⁓ I was like, I've been there, done that. Design systems are nice, but it's kind of the same thing over and over again. So I moved to platform engineering and I wanted to work on developer tooling. So I moved to Netlify.
Ben Callahan (05:29)
And there I founded the UX tooling team where I worked on ⁓ all the things that have to do with DevOps for design systems. So the end-to-end shipping pipelines over there. ⁓ And then after five years, ⁓ I was like, I've been there, done that. Design systems are nice, but it's kind of the same thing over and over again. ⁓ So I moved to platform engineering and I wanted to work on developer tooling. So I moved to Netlify.
ep074 screen raw (05:30)
And there I founded the UX tooling team, where I worked on all the things that have to do with DevOps for design systems. So the end-to-end shipping pipelines over there. And then after five years, ⁓ I was like, I've been there, done that. Design systems are nice, but it's kind of the same thing over and over again. So I moved to platform engineering, and I wanted to work on developer tooling. So I moved to Netlify.
they hired me. Funny enough, they hired me thinking I was going to help them build design systems.
Ben Callahan (05:53)
And they hired me, funny enough, they hired me thinking I was going to help them build design systems.
ep074 speaker raw (05:53)
And they hired me, funny enough, they hired me thinking I was going to help them build design systems.
ep074 screen raw (05:59)
And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're doing things like the way you're thinking systemically already is great. Don't over invest in design systems. So we can double click on that later. Yeah, let's do that. On the why somebody like me would say, why would you do more design systems? And then I moved to Intuit, back to my love for design systems with
Ben Callahan (05:59)
And was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're doing things like the way you're thinking systemically already is great. Don't over invest in design systems. So we can double click on that later if you're interested on why somebody like me would say, why would you do more design systems? And then I moved Intuit back to my love for design systems ⁓ with
ep074 speaker raw (05:59)
And was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're doing things like the way you're thinking systemically already is great. Don't over invest in design systems. So we can double click on that later if you're interested on why somebody like me would say, why would you do more design systems? And then I moved into it, back to my love for design systems ⁓ with
ep074 screen raw (06:20)
lots of investments towards AI over there. And I wanted to see what the interplay between AI and design systems and agentic workflows looked like.
Ben Callahan (06:20)
lots of investments towards AI over there. And I wanted to see what the interplay between AI and design systems and agentic workflows look like.
ep074 speaker raw (06:20)
lots of investments towards AI over there. And I wanted to see what the interplay between AI and science systems and agentic workflows looked like.
Ben Callahan (06:28)
And then as of about a month ago, ⁓ actually, maybe exactly a month ago, I left Intuit and ⁓ back on the job market and having fun speaking to other people. I was very caffeinated during my trip in San Francisco. I can tell you that.
ep074 speaker raw (06:28)
And then as of about a month ago, actually, maybe exactly a month ago, I left Intuit and ⁓ back on the job market and having fun speaking to other people. I was very caffeinated during my trip in San Francisco. I can tell you that.
ep074 screen raw (06:28)
And then as of about a month ago, actually, maybe exactly a month ago, I left into it and back on the job market and having fun speaking to other people. I was very caffeinated during my trip in San Francisco. can tell you that.
Lots of coffee chats, lots of very interesting insights that people have been sharing. So excited to be here. sorry, it was a bit long, but... Yeah, thanks. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (06:47)
Lots of coffee chats, lots of very interesting insights that people have been sharing. So excited to be here. And sorry, it was a bit long, but. Yeah, thanks. Yeah.
ep074 speaker raw (06:47)
Lots of coffee chats, lots of very interesting insights that people have been sharing. So excited to be here. And sorry, it was a bit long, but. Yeah, thanks. Yeah.
ep074 screen raw (06:56)
It's funny because I think I would imagine if I asked everybody here on the call to raise their hand, if this part of your story aligns with their part, we would get a lot of hands. And that is that I didn't even know design systems were a thing. I just am a systems thinker and I was working systematically
Ben Callahan (06:57)
It's funny because I think I would imagine if I asked everybody here on the call to raise their hand, if this part of your story aligns with their part, we would get a lot of hands. And that is that I didn't even know design systems were a thing. I just am a systems thinker and I was working systematically.
ep074 speaker raw (06:57)
It's funny because I think I would imagine if I asked everybody here on the call to raise their hand, if this part of your story aligns with their part, we would get a lot of hands. And that is that I didn't even know design systems were a thing. I just am a systems thinker and I was working systematically.
ep074 screen raw (07:15)
and it sort of emerged into a career. And so I think that's cool to hear from you, Klig, somebody that a lot of us have looked up to in your work with the
Ben Callahan (07:15)
And it's sort of emerged into a career, you know? And so I think that's cool to hear from you, Kaelig somebody that a lot of us have looked up to in your work with the
ep074 speaker raw (07:15)
And it's sort of emerged into a career, you know? And so I think that's cool to hear from you, Kaelig, somebody that a lot of us have looked up to in your work with the
ep074 screen raw (07:24)
know, design tokens, community group, and all of that has been influential and appreciate you and your generosity with your knowledge. So thanks for being here. ⁓ Gosh, we got, we, had a fun conversation leading up to this and ⁓
Ben Callahan (07:24)
design tokens community group and all of that has been influential and appreciate you and your generosity with your knowledge. thanks for being here. ⁓ Gosh, we got, we had a fun conversation leading up to this and. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (07:24)
design tokens community group and all of that has been influential and appreciate you and your generosity with your knowledge. thanks for being here. ⁓ Gosh, we got, we had a fun conversation leading up to this and. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (07:38)
we, we talked a lot about AI and options for things that we could ask. know that's something you've been experimenting a lot with, Kailig, in reading some of your most recent writings. We ended up, you told me this story, ⁓ which I'll just recount quickly here. You said.
Ben Callahan (07:38)
We talked a lot about AI and options for things that we could ask. I know that's something you've been experimenting a lot with, Kailig, in reading some of your most recent writings. We ended up, you told me this story, which I'll just recount quickly here. You said
ep074 speaker raw (07:38)
We talked a lot about AI and options for things that we could ask. I know that's something you've been experimenting a lot with, Kailig, in reading some of your most recent writings. We ended up, you told me this story, which I'll just recount quickly here. You said
Ben Callahan (07:52)
in 2016, you were at a symposium for design systems when I think you were at Salesforce at the time. And you went to a bunch of larger design system teams were there.
ep074 speaker raw (07:52)
in 2016, you were at a symposium for design systems when I think you were at Salesforce at the time. And you went to a bunch of larger design system teams were there.
ep074 screen raw (07:53)
In 2016, you were at a symposium for design systems when I think you were at Salesforce at the time. And you went to a bunch of larger design system teams were there. And
Ben Callahan (08:04)
And to close the day, somebody asked, if you had a magic wand, what's the one thing you'd change? And your answer back then was tracking, you know, wanting more visibility, more discoverability, just more understanding of how your components are being used. And it sounds like that's still something that you're after today. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (08:04)
And to close the day, somebody asked, if you had a magic wand, what's the one thing you'd change? And your answer back then was tracking, you know, wanting more visibility, more discoverability, just more understanding of how your components are being used. And it sounds like that's still something that you're after today. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (08:05)
to close the day, somebody asked, if you had a magic wand, what's the one thing you'd change? And your answer back then was tracking, wanting more visibility, more discoverability, just more understanding of how your components are being used. And it sounds like that's still something that you're after today. ⁓
And when we go to look at the data, we'll see that a lot of people are still after that. ⁓ But with that as some context, we landed on four questions. The first question was,
ep074 speaker raw (08:21)
And when we go to look at the data, we'll see that like a lot of people are still after that. So, ⁓ but with that as sort of some context, we landed on four questions. The first question was.
Ben Callahan (08:22)
And when we go to look at the data, we'll see that like a lot of people are still after that. So, ⁓ but with that as sort of some context, we landed on four questions. The first question was.
ep074 screen raw (08:34)
how would you describe your current level of visibility into how your design system assets are actually being used across disciplines, including their use by AI? And we gave folks ⁓ four options and an other, or an NA.
Ben Callahan (08:34)
How would you describe your current level of visibility into how your design system assets are actually being used across disciplines, including their use by AI? And we gave folks four options and an other or an NA.
ep074 speaker raw (08:34)
How would you describe your current level of visibility into how your design system assets are actually being used across disciplines, including their use by AI? And we gave folks four options and an other or an NA.
Ben Callahan (08:47)
We asked, as AI agents and automation tools produce more content, design, and code at scale, what are your biggest design system concerns? And it allowed folks to select from many options from a few.
ep074 speaker raw (08:47)
We asked, as AI agents and automation tools produce more content, design, and code at scale, what are your biggest design system concerns? And it allowed folks to select from many options from a few.
ep074 screen raw (08:47)
We asked, as AI agents and automation tools produce more content, design and code at scale, what are your biggest design system concerns? And allowed folks to select from many options from a few.
We asked, how has your feeling about the right balance between design system enforcement and enablement shifted as AI enters the picture and kind of gave them sort of like a scale to choose from. And then one last.
Ben Callahan (09:01)
We asked, how has your feeling about the right balance between design system enforcement and enablement shifted as AI enters the picture and kind of gave them sort of like a scale to choose from? And then one last
ep074 speaker raw (09:01)
We asked, how has your feeling about the right balance between design system enforcement and enablement shifted as AI enters the picture and kind of gave them sort of like a scale to choose from. And then one last
ep074 screen raw (09:12)
open text question, if you could instantly implement one thing today to improve visibility into how your system is actually being used without becoming the design police, what would it be and why?
Ben Callahan (09:12)
open text question. If you could instantly implement one thing today to improve visibility into how your system is actually being used without becoming the design police, what would it be and why?
ep074 speaker raw (09:12)
open text question. If you could instantly implement one thing today to improve visibility into how your system is actually being used without becoming the design police, what would it be and why?
ep074 screen raw (09:22)
And so we got so many great answers. As we always do, we sent this out to 1,081 design system practitioners. We've got 78 responses and wherever you're listening or watching to this or here on the live call, you can click this link to go see the raw data for yourself. I had a ton of fun digging into it this week. I was really, really.
Ben Callahan (09:22)
And so we got so many great answers as we always do. We sent this out to 1,081 design system practitioners. We've got 78 responses and wherever you're listening or watching to this or here on the live call, you can click this link to go see the raw data for yourself. I had a ton of fun digging into it this week. I was really, really
ep074 speaker raw (09:22)
And so we got so many great answers as we always do. We sent this out to 1,081 design system practitioners. We've got 78 responses and wherever you're listening or watching to this or here on the live call, you can click this link to go see the raw data for yourself. I had a ton of fun digging into it this week. I was really, really
Ben Callahan (09:41)
kind of looking for some interesting correlations. I'll just say too that this is a small data set as it is every episode for us, right? So don't.
ep074 speaker raw (09:41)
kind of looking for some interesting correlations. I'll just say too that this is a small data set as it is every episode for us, right? So don't.
ep074 screen raw (09:41)
kind of looking for some interesting correlations. I'll just say too that this is a small data set as it is every episode for us, right? So don't
think of these things as statistically significant signals, but more as kindling for a good conversation. ⁓ I don't know, what were you expecting to see in this first one, Kay? Like anything in particular?
Ben Callahan (09:50)
think of these things as statistically significant signals, but more as kindling for a good conversation. ⁓ I don't know, what were you expecting to see in this first one, Kay? Like anything in particular?
ep074 speaker raw (09:50)
think of these things as statistically significant signals, but more as kindling for a good conversation. ⁓ I don't know, what were you expecting to see in this first one, Kay? Like anything in particular?
Ben Callahan (10:04)
⁓ I would have been surprised if people had said we've got robust automated tracking. ⁓ And I've seen some teams do it with some interesting techniques, ⁓ but I haven't seen it talked about very much or even the tooling that goes around this, like the design system tooling ⁓ products out there that try to achieve that. It's a bit tough.
ep074 screen raw (10:04)
⁓ I would have been surprised if people had said we've got robust automated tracking. ⁓ And I've seen some teams do it with some interesting techniques, ⁓ but I haven't seen it talked about very much or even the tooling that goes around this, like the design system tooling ⁓ products out there that try to achieve that. It's a bit tough.
ep074 speaker raw (10:04)
⁓ I would have been surprised if people had said we've got robust automated tracking. ⁓ And I've seen some teams do it with some interesting techniques, ⁓ but I haven't seen it talked about very much or even the tooling that goes around this, like the design system tooling products out there that try to achieve that. It's a bit tough.
Ben Callahan (10:33)
Yeah, I'm not super surprised. I'm glad that,
ep074 screen raw (10:33)
Yeah, I'm not super surprised. I'm glad that,
ep074 speaker raw (10:33)
Yeah, I'm not super surprised. I'm glad that,
Ben Callahan (10:38)
the trend is more towards that second answer. We have some manual processes or partial tooling. That makes sense to me. Like this is where I think I've seen most of the teams I was on be around. Yeah. And I think it's probably, it's interesting we didn't think about it like this, but there's probably a scale of maturity in this, right? Like you start here with no visibility, it's a black box and you sort of move up through these. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (10:38)
the trend is more towards that second answer. We have some manual processes or partial tooling. That makes sense to me. Like this is where I think I've seen most of the teams I was on be around. Yeah. And I think it's probably, it's interesting we didn't think about it like this, but there's probably a scale of maturity in this, right? Like you start here with no visibility, it's a black box and you sort of move up through these. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (10:38)
the trend is more towards that second answer. We have some manual processes or partial tooling. That makes sense to me. Like this is where I think I've seen most of the teams I was on be around. Yeah. And I think it's probably, it's interesting we didn't think about it like this, but there's probably a scale of maturity in this, right? Like you start here with no visibility, it's a black box and you sort of move up through these. ⁓
Ben Callahan (11:02)
Yeah, it's interesting that one of the challenges here was called out, I think, in one of the answers or in some in a category of answers right here, which is that I think what we're looking for is more than what some of the tools that have been on the market, things like Omelette, which if you haven't seen, has just been open sourced by Zeppelin. So that's something for us to unpack. But that was primarily code focused, right, in terms of metrics of use and that kind of thing. So I think folks are looking for more
ep074 screen raw (11:02)
Yeah, it's interesting that one of the challenges here was called out, I think, in one of the answers or in some in a category of answers right here, which is that I think what we're looking for is more than what some of the tools that have been on the market, things like Omelette, which if you haven't seen, has just been open sourced by Zeppelin. ⁓ So that's something for us to unpack. But that was primarily code focused, right, in terms of metrics of use and that kind of thing. So I think folks are looking for more.
ep074 speaker raw (11:02)
Yeah, it's interesting that one of the challenges here was called out, I think, in one of the answers or in some in a category of answers right here, which is that I think what we're looking for is more than what some of the tools that have been on the market, things like Omelette, which if you haven't seen, has just been open sourced by Zeppelin. ⁓ So that's something for us to unpack. But that was primarily code focused, right, in terms of metrics of use and that kind of thing. So I think folks are looking for more.
Ben Callahan (11:32)
cross channel, you know, like what are designers doing? What are UXers doing? What are developers, product folks, content folks? So that's a tough challenge when the context of all the organizations where we work are so different, you know, ⁓ but maybe there's some space there for some cool products. Sorry to interject, Ben. There's another layer to this, which is ⁓ the end customer, because as a design system team, typically your users are very internal folks. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (11:32)
cross channel, you know, like what are designers doing? What are UXers doing? What are developers, product folks, content folks? So that's a tough challenge when the context of all the organizations where we work are so different, you know, ⁓ but maybe there's some space there for some cool products. Sorry to interject, Ben. There's another layer to this, which is ⁓ the end customer, because as a design system team, typically your users are very internal folks. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (11:32)
cross channel, you know, like what are designers doing? What are UXers doing? What are developers, product folks, content folks? So that's a tough challenge when the context of all the organizations where we work are so different, you know, ⁓ but maybe there's some space there for some cool products. Sorry to interject, Ben. There's another layer to this, which is ⁓ the end customer, because as a design system team, typically your users are very internal folks. ⁓
Ben Callahan (12:01)
but then what about their users? So the end customer of whatever your company's product is, ⁓ are gonna be experiencing those components or not? And so a component could be very much somewhere in the code, but nobody ever sees it on the end side. That happens a lot with ⁓ technical debt, zombie code that hasn't been cleaned up.
ep074 screen raw (12:01)
but then what about their users? So the end customer of whatever your company's product is, ⁓ are gonna be experiencing those components or not? And so a component could be very much somewhere in the code, but nobody ever sees it on the end side. That happens a lot with ⁓ technical debt, zombie code that hasn't been cleaned up.
ep074 speaker raw (12:01)
but then what about their users? So the end customer of whatever your company's product is, ⁓ are gonna be experiencing those components or not? And so a component could be very much somewhere in the code, but nobody ever sees it on the end side. That happens a lot with ⁓ technical debt, zombie code that hasn't been cleaned up.
Ben Callahan (12:27)
And then you don't know if you can deprecate a component as a design system team unless you know if it's going to impact the actual end user, not just the developers using it. Yeah, that's a good call out. ⁓ The other two, this one, the second question was about what are your biggest ⁓ concerns? And it was just basically like all of them. That's how I read the answer. ⁓ I did do some interesting
ep074 screen raw (12:27)
And then you don't know if you can deprecate a component as a design system team unless you know if it's going to impact the actual end user, not just the developers using it. Yeah, that's a good call out. ⁓ The other two, this one, the second question was about what are your biggest ⁓ concerns? And it was just basically like all of them. That's how I read the answer. ⁓ I did do some interesting
ep074 speaker raw (12:27)
And then you don't know if you can deprecate a component as a design system team unless you know if it's going to impact the actual end user, not just the developers using it. Yeah, that's a good call out. ⁓ The other two, this one, the second question was about what are your biggest ⁓ concerns? And it was just basically like all of them. That's how I read the answer. ⁓ I did do some interesting
Ben Callahan (12:57)
of the data to see did people choose only one of these when they could choose multiple. And I looked at sort of how they answered the last question based on that. so I'll share some of that a little later. ⁓ But you can see some of the some of the interesting quotes here from things ⁓ I did love. I think it was Brandon that gave us this optimistic view. So we positioned this and said, what are you what are you concerned with? But Brandon was like, I see this list as a laundry list of things that AI and more robust infrastructure are going to solve.
ep074 screen raw (12:57)
of the data to see did people choose only one of these when they could choose multiple. And I looked at sort of how they answered the last question based on that. so I'll share some of that a little later. ⁓ But you can see some of the some of the interesting quotes here from things. ⁓ I did love I think it was Brandon that gave us this optimistic view. So we positioned this and said, what are you what are you concerned with? But Brandon was like, I see this list as a laundry list of things that AI and more robust infrastructure are going to solve.
ep074 speaker raw (12:57)
of the data to see did people choose only one of these when they could choose multiple. And I looked at sort of how they answered the last question based on that. so I'll share some of that a little later. ⁓ But you can see some of the some of the interesting quotes here from things ⁓ I did love. I think it was Brandon that gave us this optimistic view. So we positioned this and said, what are you what are you concerned with? But Brandon was like, I see this list as a laundry list of things that AI and more robust infrastructure are going to solve.
Ben Callahan (13:26)
So it was like a positive spin on the question, which I thought was really kind cool. Brandon is the ultimate optimist. I don't know, Brandon, if you're here, but thanks for sharing that one. ⁓ The last one, again, more like a spectrum, was pretty balanced, again. so folks from like strong enforcement, a move towards strong enforcement versus a move towards strong enablement. ⁓ It's interesting, though, because almost all, there was a good number of folks who said other here, 14%.
ep074 screen raw (13:26)
So it was like a positive spin on the question, which I thought was really kind cool. Brandon is the ultimate optimist. I don't know, Brandon, if you're here, but thanks for sharing that one. ⁓ The last one, again, more like a spectrum, was pretty balanced, again. so folks from like strong enforcement, a move towards strong enforcement versus a move towards strong enablement. ⁓ It's interesting, though, because almost all, there was a good number of folks who said other here, 14%.
ep074 speaker raw (13:26)
So it was like a positive spin on the question, which I thought was really kind cool. Brandon is the ultimate optimist. I don't know, Brandon, if you're here, but thanks for sharing that one. ⁓ The last one, again, more like a spectrum, was pretty balanced, again. so folks from like strong enforcement, a move towards strong enforcement versus a move towards strong enablement. ⁓ It's interesting, though, because almost all, there was a good number of folks who said other here, 14%.
Ben Callahan (13:53)
And I was just thinking, if you have 14 % of people resist answering and write and take the time to write an answer, what are they saying? And so most of those, think I would say we're leaning towards the idea of, I want to do both. I want some more enforcement, but I also want it to feel like people are being enabled. And so that's an interesting tension I think we'll have to unpack. ⁓ Okay, folks, this is the moment, right? This is a long intro today, because there are lots of questions, but
ep074 screen raw (13:53)
And I was just thinking, if you have 14 % of people resist answering and write and take the time to write an answer, what are they saying? And so most of those, think I would say we're leaning towards the idea of, I want to do both. I want some more enforcement, but I also want it to feel like people are being enabled. And so that's an interesting tension I think we'll have to unpack. ⁓ Okay, folks, this is the moment, right? This is a long intro today, because there are lots of questions, but
ep074 speaker raw (13:53)
And I was just thinking, if you have 14 % of people resist answering and write and take the time to write an answer, what are they saying? And so most of those, think I would say we're leaning towards the idea of, I want to do both. I want some more enforcement, but I also want it to feel like people are being enabled. And so that's an interesting tension I think we'll have to unpack. ⁓ Okay, folks, this is the moment, right? This is a long intro today, because there are lots of questions, but
Ben Callahan (14:22)
I just want to encourage you, raise your hand if there's a specific topic you want to get into. We'll get you on. can unmute and jump into the conversation. Kalec, any place in particular that you want to start?
ep074 screen raw (14:22)
I just want to encourage you, raise your hand if there's a specific topic you want to get into. We'll get you on. can unmute and jump into the conversation. Kalec, any place in particular that you want to start?
ep074 speaker raw (14:22)
I just want to encourage you, raise your hand if there's a specific topic you want to get into. We'll get you on. can unmute and jump into the conversation. Kalec, any place in particular that you want to start?
Ben Callahan (14:35)
Yeah, the well, it's funny on Donnie's show yesterday. I think Brad talked about the fog of war and that's a metaphor I've been using in a piece I'm writing right now as well that comes from real time strategy games where ⁓ as a player, well, first of all, those games are games of incomplete knowledge. So you don't know what the opponent, the enemy is doing. You don't know what's happening outside of
ep074 screen raw (14:35)
Yeah, the well, it's funny on Donnie's show yesterday. I think Brad talked about the fog of war and that's a metaphor I've been using in a piece I'm writing right now as well that comes from real time strategy games where ⁓ as a player, well, first of all, those games are games of incomplete knowledge. So you don't know what the opponent, the enemy is doing. You don't know what's happening outside of
ep074 speaker raw (14:35)
Yeah, the well, it's funny on Donnie's show yesterday. I think Brad talked about the fog of war and that's a metaphor I've been using in a piece I'm writing right now as well that comes from real time strategy games where ⁓ as a player, well, first of all, those games are games of incomplete knowledge. So you don't know what the opponent, the enemy is doing. You don't know what's happening outside of
Ben Callahan (15:05)
what your army can see. And of course, this is, we're not going to use war metaphors too much for design systems because it's a team sport. the idea that you build something, but then you don't necessarily know what happens on the edges of how product is built. That's something that I hold dear to, like how I think, because I was playing a lot of StarCraft in my days. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (15:05)
what your army can see. And of course, this is, we're not going to use war metaphors too much for design systems because it's a team sport. the idea that you build something, but then you don't necessarily know what happens on the edges of how product is built. That's something that I hold dear to, like how I think, because I was playing a lot of StarCraft in my days. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (15:05)
what your army can see. And of course, this is, we're not going to use war metaphors too much for design systems because it's a team sport. the idea that you build something, but then you don't necessarily know what happens on the edges of how product is built. That's something that I hold dear to, like how I think, because I was playing a lot of StarCraft in my days. ⁓
Ben Callahan (15:35)
And the way you can make bets based on that incomplete knowledge, the way you prioritize your, how, where you spend your attention. ⁓ there's a lot that can be, that can be derived from that thinking. And I'm, curious about how people think about this now that you could potentially have a surveillance state of design systems. And in fact, that's one of the fears of AI for society in general. Like it's if, if
ep074 screen raw (15:35)
And the way you can make bets based on that incomplete knowledge, the way you prioritize your, how, where you spend your attention. ⁓ there's a lot that can be, that can be derived from that thinking. And I'm, curious about how people think about this now that you could potentially have a surveillance state of design systems. And in fact, that's one of the fears of AI for society in general. Like it's if, if
ep074 speaker raw (15:35)
And the way you can make bets based on that incomplete knowledge, the way you prioritize your, how, where you spend your attention. ⁓ there's a lot that can be, that can be derived from that thinking. And I'm, curious about how people think about this now that you could potentially have a surveillance state of design systems. And in fact, that's one of the fears of AI for society in general. Like it's if, if
Ben Callahan (16:04)
our powers, the powers that be have unlimited enforcement power. Where is freedom? Where lies, ⁓ you know, some amendments if you're in the US and might be violated. ⁓ And the same thing, like if you have your designers and developers feeling under the pressure of conforming to your system at all times because they're being surveilled, where does creativity go? ⁓ And so what you're gaining as a systems team and visibility and
ep074 screen raw (16:04)
our powers, the powers that be have unlimited enforcement power. Where is freedom? Where lies, ⁓ you know, some amendments if you're in the US and might be violated. ⁓ And the same thing, like if you have your designers and developers feeling under the pressure of conforming to your system at all times because they're being surveilled, where does creativity go? ⁓ And so what you're gaining as a systems team and visibility and
ep074 speaker raw (16:04)
our powers, the powers that be have unlimited enforcement power. Where is freedom? Where lies, ⁓ you know, some amendments if you're in the US and might be violated. ⁓ And the same thing, like if you have your designers and developers feeling under the pressure of conforming to your system at all times because they're being surveilled, where does creativity go? ⁓ And so what you're gaining as a systems team and visibility and
Ben Callahan (16:34)
enforcement, are you losing something else at the same time? I'm curious about how people think about this if they have. my goodness, what a great question and a great place for us to start. So folks, how do you feel about this idea of visibility for us as systems practitioners, perhaps leading to a feeling of pressure to conform because of surveillance or that sort of thing? thanks, Kaelig, for that. Peter, jump right in.
ep074 screen raw (16:34)
enforcement, are you losing something else at the same time? I'm curious about how people think about this if they have. my goodness, what a great question and a great place for us to start. So folks, how do you feel about this idea of visibility for us as systems practitioners, perhaps leading to a feeling of pressure to conform because of surveillance or that sort of thing? thanks, Kayleigh, for that. Peter, jump right in.
ep074 speaker raw (16:34)
enforcement, are you losing something else at the same time? I'm curious about how people think about this if they have. my goodness, what a great question and a great place for us to start. So folks, how do you feel about this idea of visibility for us as systems practitioners, perhaps leading to a feeling of pressure to conform because of surveillance or that sort of thing? thanks, Kaelig, for that. Peter, jump right in.
Ben Callahan (17:02)
Yeah, I think there's another dimension of that kind of idea, which is with AI and design systems, able to kind of enable themselves to kind of go over people to work, like, where's the ownership of it all at the same time? So like in the same way that you're that there's a there's a concern about like being overwatched by, you know,
ep074 screen raw (17:02)
Yeah, I think there's another dimension of that kind of idea, which is with AI and design systems, able to kind of enable themselves to kind of go over people to work. Like, where's the ownership of it all at the same time? So like in the same way that you're that there's a there's a concern about like being overwatched by, you know,
ep074 speaker raw (17:02)
Yeah, I think there's another dimension of that kind of idea, which is with AI and design systems, able to kind of enable themselves to kind of go over people to work. Like, where's the ownership of it all at the same time? So like in the same way that you're that there's a there's a concern about like being overwatched by, you know,
Ben Callahan (17:26)
all these entities about whether you're doing the right thing or not. You have equally the ability for someone to kind of overwrite your work anyway. So if it's not conforming, it's like, well, I feel like conforming it. So there's lots of opportunities for everyone to write over each other's work. So really kind of the solution that was kind of cultural contracting, ⁓ at least within an organization standpoint, I can't really speak to kind of the, the, the ⁓ efficacy for like the general public, but within an org, you have just as much.
ep074 screen raw (17:26)
all these entities about whether you're doing the right thing or not. You have equally the ability for someone to kind of overwrite your work anyway. So if it's not conforming, it's like, well, I feel like conforming it. So there's lots of opportunities for everyone to write over each other's work. really kind of the solution that was kind of cultural contracting, ⁓ at least within an organization standpoint, I can't really speak to kind of efficacy for like the general public, but within an org, you have just as much.
ep074 speaker raw (17:26)
all these entities about whether you're doing the right thing or not. You have equally the ability for someone to kind of overwrite your work anyway. So if it's not conforming, it's like, well, I feel like conforming it. So there's lots of opportunities for everyone to write over each other's work. really kind of the solution that was kind of cultural contracting, ⁓ at least within an organization standpoint, I can't really speak to kind of efficacy for like the general public, but within an org, you have just as much.
Ben Callahan (17:54)
right to kind of oversee something as you do to overwrite something. ⁓ I feel like that kind of counterbalances the scales a little bit now. Kaelig, do you want to respond to that?
ep074 screen raw (17:54)
right to kind of oversee something as you do to overwrite something. ⁓ I feel like that kind of counterbalances the scales a little bit now. Kaelig, do you want to respond to that?
ep074 speaker raw (17:54)
right to kind of oversee something as you do to overwrite something. ⁓ I feel like that kind of counterbalances the scales a little bit now. Kaelig, do you want to respond to that?
Ben Callahan (18:08)
The idea that something will overwrite your work so it conforms makes you change your behavior to conform by default is what you're saying, Peter? Not quite. mean, I think there's just kind of there's going to be a natural tension where you have people that want to align with systems for whatever reason, then you have people that don't want to align with systems for whatever reason. And you have the opportunity for both sides to be able to kind of overlap each other's work.
ep074 screen raw (18:08)
The idea that something will overwrite your work so it conforms makes you change your behavior to conform by default is what you're saying, Peter? Not quite. mean, I think there's just kind of there's going to be a natural tension where you have people that want to align with systems for whatever reason, then you have people that don't want to align with systems for whatever reason. And you have the opportunity for both sides to be able to kind of overlap each other's work.
ep074 speaker raw (18:08)
The idea that something will overwrite your work so it conforms makes you change your behavior to conform by default is what you're saying, Peter? Not quite. mean, I think there's just kind of there's going to be a natural tension where you have people that want to align with systems for whatever reason, then you have people that don't want to align with systems for whatever reason. And you have the opportunity for both sides to be able to kind of overlap each other's work.
Ben Callahan (18:35)
where someone's like, well, no, this should be part of the system. So I'm going to override it. this shouldn't be part of this normal system, or this is unique. So I should override it. ⁓ like, doesn't the natural kind of positioning of those kind of antithetical forces kind of neutralize each other to some degree? yeah. OK. So that's where we start.
ep074 screen raw (18:35)
where someone's like, well, no, this should be part of the system. So I'm going to override it. this shouldn't be part of this normal system, or this is unique. So I should override it. ⁓ like, doesn't the natural kind of positioning of those kind of antithetical forces kind of neutralize each other to some degree? ⁓ yeah. OK. So that's where we start.
ep074 speaker raw (18:35)
where someone's like, well, no, this should be part of the system. So I'm going to override it. this shouldn't be part of this normal system, or this is unique. So I should override it. ⁓ like, doesn't the natural kind of positioning of those kind of antithetical forces kind of neutralize each other to some degree? ⁓ yeah. OK. So that's where we start.
Ben Callahan (18:58)
OK, so my thoughts on this is that there's going to be a level of helpfulness from those tools. Like, if you ignored that because there was no training or documentation was poor, but there's a pattern that was already available for you to use, and it does the same thing than what you just designed from scratch. Having a little clippy helpful thing to tell you, ⁓ hey, by the way, you should probably use the system here.
ep074 screen raw (18:58)
OK, so my thoughts on this is that there's going to be a level of helpfulness from those tools. Like, if you ignored that because there was no training or documentation was poor, but there's a pattern that was already available for you to use, and it does the same thing than what you just designed from scratch. Having a little clippy helpful thing to tell you, ⁓ hey, by the way, you should probably use the system here.
ep074 speaker raw (18:58)
OK, so my thoughts on this is that there's going to be a level of helpfulness from those tools. Like, if you ignored that because there was no training or documentation was poor, but there's a pattern that was already available for you to use, and it does the same thing than what you just designed from scratch. Having a little clippy helpful thing to tell you, ⁓ hey, by the way, you should probably use the system here.
Ben Callahan (19:27)
Very convenient. And for the system to have visibility over this as well, it's kind of nice because they can be like, ⁓ we missed the mark on documentation or training because that person obviously didn't know. ⁓ That's it for people to feel empowered and have the agency to deviate from the system when the system is just not providing the best user experience. ⁓ We need head escape hatches. So I'm hoping that people who are building those surveillance states
ep074 screen raw (19:27)
Very convenient. And for the system to have visibility over this as well, it's kind of nice because they can be like, ⁓ we missed the mark on documentation or training because that person obviously didn't know. ⁓ That's it for people to feel empowered and have the agency to deviate from the system when the system is just not providing the best user experience. ⁓ We need head escape hatches. So I'm hoping that people who are building those surveillance state
ep074 speaker raw (19:27)
Very convenient. And for the system to have visibility over this as well, it's kind of nice because they can be like, ⁓ we missed the mark on documentation or training because that person obviously didn't know. ⁓ That's it for people to feel empowered and have the agency to deviate from the system when the system is just not providing the best user experience. ⁓ We need head escape hatches. So I'm hoping that people who are building those surveillance state
Ben Callahan (19:57)
machines. Also, train people to know when, how, why to deviate from the system. And don't make it look like they're failing at their jobs for deviating from the system, but rather that they understand the user need better than the system would have. And in fact, that it's an opportunity for the system to learn from this instead of enforce. But that's my, I don't know, blue sky view of this.
ep074 screen raw (19:57)
machines. Also train people to know when, how, why to deviate from the system. And don't make it look like they're failing at their jobs for deviating from the system, but rather that they understand the user need better than the system would have. And in fact, that it's an opportunity for the system to learn from this instead of enforce. But that's my, I don't know, blue sky view of this.
ep074 speaker raw (19:57)
machines. Also train people to know when, how, why to deviate from the system. And don't make it look like they're failing at their jobs for deviating from the system, but rather that they understand the user need better than the system would have. And in fact, that it's an opportunity for the system to learn from this instead of enforce. But that's my, I don't know, blue sky view of this.
Ben Callahan (20:26)
Okay, like that showed up in the data pretty clearly actually. When I read through things, was a connection, I'm trying to remember exactly how it worked out, but it was basically that there was this desire to use, so folks who were strong on the enforcement side were not talking about it in the sense of like policing. It was all about learning and understanding. it was the feedback loop idea of like, hey, if I don't have the data,
ep074 screen raw (20:26)
Okay, like that showed up in the data pretty clearly actually. When I read through things, was a connection, I'm trying to remember exactly how it worked out, but it was basically that there was this desire to use, so folks who were strong on the enforcement side were not talking about it in the sense of like policing. It was all about learning and understanding. it was the feedback loop idea of like, hey, if I don't have the data,
ep074 speaker raw (20:26)
Okay, like that showed up in the data pretty clearly actually. When I read through things, was a connection, I'm trying to remember exactly how it worked out, but it was basically that there was this desire to use, so folks who were strong on the enforcement side were not talking about it in the sense of like policing. It was all about learning and understanding. it was the feedback loop idea of like, hey, if I don't have the data,
ep074 screen raw (20:55)
for how this is used, I can't actually mature the system in the way that's valuable to the consumers. so, you know, this is again, now we're getting at this idea of like, well, if you have the power to do all of that tracking and have that all that visibility, you say you're gonna use it for good now, can we trust that you will in the future, right? So maybe there's something to unpack there. Doug, jump in. I'm just curious, is this resistance to tracking and enforcement a designer thing? And the reason I say that,
Ben Callahan (20:55)
for how this is used, I can't actually mature the system in the way that's valuable to the consumers. so, you know, this is again, now we're getting at this idea of like, well, if you have the power to do all of that tracking and have that all that visibility, you say you're gonna use it for good now, can we trust that you will in the future, right? So maybe there's something to unpack there. Doug, jump in. I'm just curious, is this resistance to tracking and enforcement a designer thing? And the reason I say that,
ep074 speaker raw (20:55)
for how this is used, I can't actually mature the system in the way that's valuable to the consumers. so, you know, this is again, now we're getting at this idea of like, well, if you have the power to do all of that tracking and have that all that visibility, you say you're gonna use it for good now, can we trust that you will in the future, right? So maybe there's something to unpack there. Doug, jump in. I'm just curious, is this resistance to tracking and enforcement a designer thing? And the reason I say that,
Ben Callahan (21:24)
is devs, we intentionally put linting tools in PR reviews and we just put as much structure in place as we possibly can so we stay on the rails. the more guide rails there are, and we know when to break them and we know the ones that, you know, this one doesn't make sense in this situation. But to me, all of this sounds like great, like the more feedback I can get that I'm on track, the better. I'm just curious, is it more of a design concern that stifles creativity at the point that you need to be creative?
ep074 screen raw (21:24)
is devs, we intentionally put linting tools in PR reviews and we just put as much structure in place as we possibly can so we stay on the rails. the more guide rails there are, and we know when to break them and we know the ones that, you know, this one doesn't make sense in this situation. But to me, all of this sounds like great, like the more feedback I can get that I'm on track, the better. I'm just curious, is it more of a design concern that stifles creativity at the point that you need to be creative?
ep074 speaker raw (21:24)
is devs, we intentionally put linting tools in PR reviews and we just put as much structure in place as we possibly can so we stay on the rails. the more guide rails there are, and we know when to break them and we know the ones that, you know, you're all this one's doesn't make sense in this situation. But to me, all of this sounds like great, like the more feedback I can get that I'm on track, the better. I'm just curious, is it more of a design concern that stifles creativity at the point that you need to be creative?
Ben Callahan (21:54)
If my question probably makes sense. Yeah. Greg, do have a new thread or are you responding to Donnie or to Doug? Sorry. I'm responding. Did I do it right? Yep. No, that's a go for it. ⁓ damn it. It's OK. Go ahead. I'm still adapting. ⁓ So
ep074 screen raw (21:54)
If my question hopefully makes sense. Yeah. Greg, do have a new thread or are you responding to Donnie or to Doug? Sorry. I'm responding. Did I do it right? Yep. No, that's a good, but go for it. ⁓ damn it. It's okay. Go ahead. I'm still adapting. ⁓ So
ep074 speaker raw (21:54)
If my question hopefully makes sense. Yeah. Greg, do have a new thread or are you responding to Donnie or to Doug? Sorry. I'm responding. Did I do it right? Yep. No, that's a go for it. ⁓ damn it. It's OK. Go ahead. ⁓ I'm still adapting. ⁓ So
Ben Callahan (22:13)
think the development perspective here is something that design needs to start to adapt to, especially with AI. Like even today, I was in a meeting where we were talking about work that we were trying to collaborate on very closely because we were building rules that AI was going to use to make skills and for us to work on the website documentation. And I think where that kind of dovetails into this is that we were
ep074 screen raw (22:13)
think the development perspective here is something that design needs to start to adapt to, especially with AI. Like even today, I was in a meeting where we were talking about work that we were trying to collaborate on very closely because we were building rules that AI was going to use to make skills and for us to work on the website documentation. And I think where that kind of dovetails into this is that we were
ep074 speaker raw (22:13)
think the development perspective here is something that design needs to start to adapt to, especially with AI. Like even today, I was in a meeting where we were talking about work that we were trying to collaborate on very closely because we were like building rules that AI was going to use to make skills and for us to work on the website documentation, right? And I think where that kind of dovetails into this is that we were
Ben Callahan (22:41)
realizing that we needed to kind of all start to work in a similar way. And I think that's an evolution that's gonna start to happen as we're all starting to use AI more, we're gonna have to actually have ways to work together that work better. And I think the reason there's probably a strong sort of designer reaction to the rigidity or the change is that the
ep074 screen raw (22:41)
realizing that we needed to kind of all start to work in a similar way. And I think that's an evolution that's gonna start to happen as we're all starting to use AI more, we're gonna have to actually have ways to work together that work better. And I think the reason there's probably a strong sort of designer reaction to the rigidity or the change is that the
ep074 speaker raw (22:41)
realizing that we needed to kind of all start to work in a similar way. And I think that's an evolution that's gonna start to happen as we're all starting to use AI more, we're gonna have to actually have ways to work together that work better. And I think the reason there's probably a strong sort of designer reaction to the rigidity or the change is that the
Ben Callahan (23:10)
first instinct is that, this is going to apply everywhere to everything. And then I'm going to feel restricted when I think what we have to think about is, okay, this is good for this set of things. And then we still have room to do more free and open things in this way. And I think that's where we have to kind of figure out how, how better to drill down on, okay, well, which one, which one is it here? And, you know, start to get more.
ep074 screen raw (23:10)
first instinct is that, this is going to apply everywhere to everything. And then I'm going to feel restricted when I think what we have to think about is, okay, this is good for this set of things. And then we still have room to do more free and open things in this way. And I think that's where we have to kind of figure out how, how better to drill down on, okay, well, which one, which one is it here? And, you know, start to get more.
ep074 speaker raw (23:10)
first instinct is that, this is going to apply everywhere to everything. And then I'm going to feel restricted when I think what we have to think about is, okay, this is good for this set of things. And then we still have room to do more free and open things in this way. And I think that's where we have to kind of figure out how, how better to drill down on, okay, well, which one, which one is it here? And, know, start to get more.
Ben Callahan (23:39)
The term I've been using is disciplined. we're in the age of AI, we all have to get more disciplined about how we do certain things. That doesn't mean everything has to be super disciplined because you then you start to, you feel like you lose a little bit of the magic of the creative process maybe. But the creative process in and of itself is like a, if you look at it certain ways is a very loose framework for how to go do things. And you have to have the right amount of structure and the right amount of.
ep074 screen raw (23:39)
⁓ the, term I've been using is disciplined. we're in the age of AI, we all have to get more disciplined about how we do certain things. That doesn't mean everything has to be super disciplined because, then you start to, you feel like you lose a little bit of the magic of the creative process, maybe. But the creative process in and of itself is like a, if you look at it certain ways is a, is a very loose framework for how to go do things. And you have to have the right amount of structure and the right amount of.
ep074 speaker raw (23:39)
⁓ the, term I've been using is disciplined. we're in the age of AI, we all have to get more disciplined about how we do certain things. That doesn't mean everything has to be super disciplined because, then you start to, you feel like you lose a little bit of the magic of the creative process, maybe. But the creative process in and of itself is like a, if you look at it certain ways is a, is a very loose framework for how to go do things. And you have to have the right amount of structure and the right amount of.
Ben Callahan (24:10)
Yeah, thanks, Greg. It's interesting. I just want to also call out that we did not actually see in the data. We don't have any demographic information about who was answering in these. So we don't know if it was designer or developer. So that was a question from Doug, not a statement that designers feel this more. ⁓ I mean, I do think the tension that I have heard, and we have asked this in the past in other episodes, the tension that I've heard, the concern that I've heard from designers, and you've probably heard this before around systems has always been a little bit more of like,
ep074 screen raw (24:10)
Yeah, thanks, Greg. It's interesting. I just want to also call out that we did not actually see in the data. We don't have any demographic information about who was answering in these. So we don't know if it was designer or developer. So that was a question from Doug, not a statement that designers feel this more. ⁓ I mean, I do think the tension that I have heard, and we have asked this in the past in other episodes, the tension that I've heard, the concern that I've heard from designers, and you've probably heard this before around systems has always been a little bit more of like,
ep074 speaker raw (24:10)
Yeah, thanks, Greg. It's interesting. I just want to also call out that we did not actually see in the data. We don't have any demographic information about who was answering in these. So we don't know if it was designer or developer. So that was a question from Doug, not a statement that designers feel this more. ⁓ I mean, I do think the tension that I have heard, and we have asked this in the past in other episodes, the tension that I've heard, the concern that I've heard from designers, and you've probably heard this before around systems has always been a little bit more of like,
Ben Callahan (24:39)
Let me do my job. Don't squash my creativity. So maybe that's kind of what I'm hearing you ask about, Doug. I do think this framing in this answer, which I've got pulled up on my screen, was really nice. I'm going to read this because I think it was a really well-stated answer. The most useful thing would be lightweight embedded signal collection at the point of consumption rather than at the point of review. I love this idea.
ep074 screen raw (24:39)
Let me do my job. Don't squash my creativity. So maybe that's kind of what I'm hearing you ask about, Doug. I do think this framing in this answer, which I've got pulled up on my screen, was really nice. I'm going to read this because I think it was a really well-stated answer. The most useful thing would be lightweight embedded signal collection at the point of consumption rather than at the point of review. I love this idea.
ep074 speaker raw (24:39)
Let me do my job. Don't squash my creativity. So maybe that's kind of what I'm hearing you ask about, Doug. I do think this framing in this answer, which I've got pulled up on my screen, was really nice. I'm going to read this because I think it was a really well-stated answer. The most useful thing would be lightweight embedded signal collection at the point of consumption rather than at the point of review. I love this idea.
Ben Callahan (25:04)
If contributors and consumers could flag uncertainty or deviation in context without it feeling like a compliance checkpoint, you'd surface real usage patterns before they compound into systemic drift. The goal is to make visibility a byproduct of normal workflow rather than a separate audit process that nobody has time for. I thought that was a really smart way to think about this, ⁓ like baking this into the process, you know? And it reminded me of some of the stuff that Pega has been working on. ⁓
ep074 screen raw (25:04)
If contributors and consumers could flag uncertainty or deviation in context without it feeling like a compliance checkpoint, you'd surface real usage patterns before they compound into systemic drift. The goal is to make visibility a byproduct of normal workflow rather than a separate audit process that nobody has time for. I thought that was a really smart way to think about this, ⁓ like baking this into the process, you know? And it reminded me of some of the stuff that Pega has been working on. ⁓
ep074 speaker raw (25:04)
If contributors and consumers could flag uncertainty or deviation in context without it feeling like a compliance checkpoint, you'd surface real usage patterns before they compound into systemic drift. The goal is to make visibility a byproduct of normal workflow rather than a separate audit process that nobody has time for. I thought that was a really smart way to think about this, ⁓ like baking this into the process, you know? And it reminded me of some of the stuff that Pega has been working on. ⁓
Ben Callahan (25:31)
So she's got this concept of a product called Magnolia, which is like tracking deviations, giving it the responsibility to the person who's deviating to sort of like state their authority for deviation, right? In the moment as they make a change. And so those things are captured, right? As the designer, in this case, the designer is working in whatever tooling they're in. ⁓ awesome conversation so far, folks. Where do we want to go here? This is great so far.
ep074 screen raw (25:31)
So she's got this concept of a product called Magnolia, which is like tracking deviations, giving it the responsibility to the person who's deviating to sort of like state their authority for deviation, right? In the moment as they make a change. And so those things are captured, right? As the designer, in this case, the designer is working in whatever tooling they're in. ⁓ awesome conversation so far, folks. Where do we want to go here? This is great so far.
ep074 speaker raw (25:31)
So she's got this concept of a product called Magnolia, which is like tracking deviations, giving it the responsibility to the person who's deviating to sort of like state their authority for deviation, right? In the moment as they make a change. And so those things are captured, right? As the designer, in this case, the designer is working in whatever tooling they're in. ⁓ awesome conversation so far, folks. Where do we want to go here? This is great so far.
Ben Callahan (25:59)
Kaelig, any other thoughts on the direction here? No, I like where Greg was going with this, the idea that there's discipline that ⁓ developers are putting in place. And in fact, what Magnolia seems to be doing is what we've been doing with StyleLint and ESLint. And there's a way to force developers to state why they're deviating. So whenever you have a rule that you're breaking in code,
ep074 screen raw (25:59)
Kaelig, any other thoughts on the direction here? No, I like where Greg was going with this, the idea that there's discipline that ⁓ developers are putting in place. And in fact, what Magnolia seems to be doing is what we've been doing with StyleLint and ESLint. And there's a way to force developers to state why they're deviating. So whenever you have a rule that you're breaking in code,
ep074 speaker raw (25:59)
Kaelig, any other thoughts on the direction here? No, I like where Greg was going with this, the idea that there's discipline that ⁓ developers are putting in place. And in fact, what Magnolia seems to be doing is what we've been doing with StyleLint and ESLint. And there's a way to force developers to state why they're deviating. So whenever you have a rule that you're breaking in code,
Ben Callahan (26:28)
you can, there's an escape hatch. You can say style and disable or ESLint disable and that linter will stop throwing warnings and errors at you. And then after you write the disable comment, you can force people to put a little comment, ⁓ human language comment where they will be explaining the context of why they would be doing this. And having that in design,
ep074 screen raw (26:28)
you can, there's an escape hatch. You can say style and disable or ESLint disable and that linter will stop throwing warnings and errors at you. And then after you write the disable comment, you can force people to put a little comment, ⁓ human language comment where they will be explaining the context of why they would be doing this. And having that in design,
ep074 speaker raw (26:28)
you can, there's an escape hatch. You can say style and disable or ESLint disable and that linter will stop throwing warnings and errors at you. And then after you write the disable comment, you can force people to put a little comment, ⁓ human language comment where they will be explaining the context of why they would be doing this. And having that in design,
Ben Callahan (26:58)
That seems so useful that it's part of your practice. And yeah, and that data could be super useful for design stem folks as well. I like it. I really like that. Jeff, what's going on,
ep074 screen raw (26:58)
That seems so useful that it's part of your practice. And yeah, and that data could be super useful for design stem folks as well. I like it. I really like that. Jeff, what's going on,
ep074 speaker raw (26:58)
That seems so useful that it's part of your practice. And yeah, and that data could be super useful for design stem folks as well. I like it. I really like that. Jeff, what's going on,
Ben Callahan (27:10)
Yeah, this is kind of a continuation on the visibility and audits that nobody has time for. I've been thinking about this through the lens of how do we
ep074 screen raw (27:10)
Yeah, this is kind of a continuation on the visibility and audits that nobody has time for. I've been thinking about this through the lens of how do we
ep074 speaker raw (27:10)
this is kind of a continuation on the visibility and ⁓ audits that nobody has time for. I've been thinking about this through the lens of ⁓ how do we ⁓
Ben Callahan (27:24)
How do we look at adoption and how do we communicate that best to leadership? think if I look at the attempts in the past, leadership wants to understand, is this successful? How successful is it? A lot of the attempts at analytics and metrics are cooling and trying to track things so that we can report it up to leadership. And a lot of times that stalls because larger effort than the investment.
ep074 screen raw (27:24)
How do we look at adoption and how do we communicate that best to leadership? I think if I look at the attempts in the past, leadership wants to understand, is this successful? How successful is it? A lot of the attempts at analytics and metrics are cooling and trying to track things so that we can report it up to leadership. And a lot of times that stalls because larger effort than the investment.
ep074 speaker raw (27:24)
How do we look at adoption and how do we communicate that best to leadership? I think if I look at the attempts in the past, leadership wants to understand, is this successful? How successful is it? A lot of the attempts at analytics and metrics are cooling and trying to track things so that we can report it up to leadership. And a lot of times that stalls because larger effort than the investment.
ep074 screen raw (27:53)
I think AI is going to be able to handle a lot of that going forward. The idea that I had recently was when you look at the curve of how do we measure this success, have through the lens of adoption, there's generally a spike up front because it's going to take product teams a little bit longer to adopt these things. It's a new workflow. It's additional work to what they're normally used to.
ep074 speaker raw (27:53)
I think AI is going to be able to handle a lot of that going forward. The idea that I had recently was when you look at the curve of how do we measure this success, have through the lens of adoption, there's generally a spike up front because it's going to take product teams a little bit longer to adopt these things. It's a new workflow. It's additional work to what they're normally used to.
Ben Callahan (27:53)
I think AI is going to be able to handle a lot of that going forward. ⁓ The idea that I had recently was when you look at the curve of how do we measure this success, have ⁓ through the lens of adoption, there's generally a spike up front because it's going to take product teams a little bit longer to adopt these things. It's a new workflow. ⁓ It's additional work to what they're normally used to. ⁓
productivity curve is going to go up exponentially over time. And how do we best track that? Yeah, you can do it. And Aya is going to be able to help a lot with this through tooling. I'm looking at it now through how do I build the relationships so that when that occurs, like if we're successful, that exponential increase in productivity is going to occur on all of these product squads. How do I build the relationship with the individuals so that when they feel the value, like it was really, really helpful?
ep074 screen raw (28:23)
productivity curve is going to go up exponentially over time. And how do we best track that? Yeah, you can do it. And Aya is going to be able to help a lot with this through tooling. I'm looking at it now through how do I build the relationships so that when that occurs, like if we're successful, that exponential increase in productivity is going to occur on all of these product squads. How do I build the relationship with the individuals so that when they feel the value, like it was really, really helpful.
ep074 speaker raw (28:23)
productivity curve is going to go up exponentially over time. And how do we best track that? Yeah, you can do it. And Aya is going to be able to help a lot with this through tooling. I'm looking at it now through how do I build the relationships so that when that occurs, like if we're successful, that exponential increase in productivity is going to occur on all of these product squads. How do I build the relationship with the individuals so that when they feel the value, like it was really, really helpful.
Ben Callahan (28:52)
I'm in a position to capture that and create just a case study. Those are the moments where I want to make sure I have ⁓ visibility into how do get a snapshot of that so that we can communicate that to leadership. Because that's something that AI is not going to be able to realistically capture in the near future. And those are the real wins that I feel like are most
ep074 screen raw (28:52)
I'm in a position to capture that and create just a case study. Those are the moments where I want to make sure I have visibility into how do get a snapshot of that so that we can communicate that to leadership. Because that's something that AI is not going to be able to realistically capture in the near future. And those are the real wins that I feel like are most
ep074 speaker raw (28:52)
I'm in a position to capture that and create just a case study. Those are the moments where I want to make sure I have visibility into how do get a snapshot of that so that we can communicate that to leadership. Because that's something that AI is not going to be able to realistically capture in the near future. And those are the real wins that I feel like are most
Ben Callahan (29:19)
going to resonate with this leadership. And it's going to take a lot less time for me to figure out how to set it up on the tooling side. Yeah. Alexander, I see that green check mark. Yeah, it was more like to some points that you made ⁓ some time ago around the sort of policing or like tooling, like the quote that you said about like capturing like stuff. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah.
ep074 screen raw (29:19)
going to resonate with this leadership. And it's going to take a lot less time for me to figure out how to set it up on the tooling side. Yeah. Alexander, I see that green check mark. Yeah, it was more like to some points that you made ⁓ some time ago around the sort of policing or like tooling, like the quote that you said about like capturing like stuff. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah.
ep074 speaker raw (29:19)
going to resonate with this leadership. And it's going to take a lot less time for me to figure out how to set it up on the tooling side. Yeah. Alexander, I see that green check mark. Yeah, it was more like to some points that you made ⁓ some time ago around the sort of policing or like tooling, like the quote that you said about like capturing like stuff. Yeah, I don't remember. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (29:48)
lightweight thingy like, well, first off, I guess when it comes to the policing versus like librarian kind of thingy, I guess it depends on which level of the system you're at. Like at a token level, of course, I think we would want to police and like the higher you go up, like the less you want to police and the more you want to be a librarian, in my opinion. Um, but what I was thinking about this, like something I had on my mind a long time is like, if in code we can have better tooling to
ep074 screen raw (29:48)
lightweight thingy like, well, first off, I guess when it comes to the policing versus like librarian kind of thingy, I guess it depends on which level of the system you're at. Like at a token level, of course, I think we would want to police and like the higher you go up, like the less you want to police and the more you want to be a librarian, in my opinion. Um, but what I was thinking about this, like something I had on my mind a long time is like, if in code we can have better tooling to
ep074 speaker raw (29:48)
lightweight thingy like, well, first off, I guess when it comes to the policing versus like librarian kind of thingy, I guess it depends on which level of the system you're at. Like at a token level, of course, I think we would want to police and like the higher you go up, like the less you want to police and the more you want to be a librarian, in my opinion. Um, but what I was thinking about this, like something I had on my mind a long time is like, if in code we can have better tooling to
Ben Callahan (30:14)
sort of identify patterns, right? And like place them sort of at like some sort of percentile that like, if it's at like the zero percentile, like one percentile, it means it's probably the design system, right? Or we know that it's the design system component. It's matches exactly the code, the way it's structured. It is the design system. And maybe like you are able to identify things that are like the five or 10 percentile. Like they're very like similar.
ep074 screen raw (30:14)
sort of identify patterns, right? And like place them sort of at like some sort of percentile that like, if it's at like the zero percentile, like one percentile, it means it's probably the design system, right? Or we know that it's the design system component. It's matches exactly the code, the way it's structured. It is the design system. And maybe like you are able to identify things that are like the five or 10 percentile. Like they're very like similar.
ep074 speaker raw (30:14)
sort of identify patterns, right? And like place them sort of at like some sort of percentile that like, if it's at like the zero percentile, like one percentile, it means it's probably the design system, right? Or we know that it's the design system component. It's matches exactly the code, the way it's structured. It is the design system. And maybe like you are able to identify things that are like the five or 10 percentile. Like they're very like similar.
ep074 screen raw (30:42)
to what we have in the design system and being able to then inform the maker that this is existing. Maybe you didn't know. But also the other way, maybe there are a bunch of scattered things across the product that all are quite similar. They're like 95 % similar. It would be so great to have visibility on that to see that, all of these things are really quite similar based on the code we have.
ep074 speaker raw (30:42)
to what we have in the design system and being able to then inform the maker that this is existing. Maybe you didn't know. But also the other way, maybe there are a bunch of scattered things across the product that all are quite similar. They're like 95 % similar. It would be so great to have visibility on that to see that, all of these things are really quite similar based on the code we have.
Ben Callahan (30:42)
⁓ to what we have in the design system and being able to then ⁓ inform ⁓ the maker that this is existing. Maybe you didn't know. But also the other way, maybe there are a bunch of scattered things across the product that all are quite similar. They're like 95 % similar. It would be so great to have visibility on that to see that, all of these things are really quite similar based on the code we have.
I would like a tool that can surface those to my team upfront and give me a report or I can go and browse and say, hey, what would it look like if we took all of these and merged them into one thing and systemized it and then migrated into that? And I think maybe even something where there's a matrix of what are the closest matches and how many occurrences of these do we find in the system to be able to see what are really, really strong candidates. A lot of occurrences that are very similar to each other.
ep074 screen raw (31:06)
I would like a tool that can surface those to my team upfront and give me a report or I can go and browse and say, hey, what would it look like if we took all of these and merged them into one thing and systemized it and then migrated into that? And I think maybe even something where there's a matrix of what are the closest matches and how many occurrences of these do we find in the system to be able to see what are really, really strong candidates. A lot of occurrences that are very similar to each other.
ep074 speaker raw (31:06)
I would like a tool that can surface those to my team upfront and give me a report or I can go and browse and say, hey, what would it look like if we took all of these and merged them into one thing and systemized it and then migrated into that? And I think maybe even something where there's a matrix of what are the closest matches and how many occurrences of these do we find in the system to be able to see what are really, really strong candidates. A lot of occurrences that are very similar to each other.
Ben Callahan (31:35)
versus more snowflakey stuff that are sort of emerging patterns. If someone can build that for me, let me know. I'll ask Claude. And this discussion happened, this almost exact discussion happened between Donny and Brad yesterday. It's so funny. But I agree. Yes, please somebody build this. I love it. Love it, Alexander. Yeah. Thanks, buddy. Pedro. Hi, everyone.
ep074 screen raw (31:35)
versus more snowflakey stuff that are sort of emerging patterns. If someone can build that for me, let me know. I'll ask Claude. And this discussion happened, this almost exact discussion happened between Donny and Brad yesterday. It's so funny. But I agree. Yes, please somebody build this. I love it. Love it, Alexander. Yeah. Thanks, buddy. Pedro. Hi, everyone.
ep074 speaker raw (31:35)
versus more snowflakey stuff that are sort of emerging patterns. If someone can build that for me, let me know. I'll ask Claude. And this discussion happened, this almost exact discussion happened between Donny and Brad yesterday. It's so funny. But I agree. Yes, please somebody build this. I love it. Love it, Alexander. Yeah. Thanks, buddy. Pedro. Hi, everyone.
Ben Callahan (32:02)
Yeah, Alex already mentioned a bit ⁓ where I was going to ask, but even on the design side, I usually like to say that when we have designers that, you know, detach components or don't follow a pattern, rather than police them, I'll prefer to understand why they're doing that and using this metric to just like drive us to the direction where, probably the
ep074 screen raw (32:02)
Yeah, Alex already mentioned a bit ⁓ where I was going to ask, but even on the design side, I usually like to say that when we have designers that, you know, detach components or don't follow a pattern, rather than police them, I'll prefer to understand why they're doing that and using this metric to just like drive us to the direction where, probably the
ep074 speaker raw (32:02)
Yeah, Alex already mentioned a bit ⁓ where I was going to ask, but even on the design side, I usually like to say that when we have designers that, you know, detach components or don't follow a pattern, rather than police them, I'll prefer to understand why they're doing that and using this metric to just like drive us to the direction where, probably the
Ben Callahan (32:31)
product needs other kinds of things that we are not covering now and this is an opportunity for us. But even like in terms of code point of view, sometimes it happens as well in terms of the culture that we need to adapt, that it's still not adapting to the new ways of building systems. my conclusion is I like to these exceptions.
ep074 screen raw (32:31)
product needs other kinds of things that we are not covering now and this is an opportunity for us. But even like in terms of code point of view, sometimes it happens as well in terms of the culture that we need to adapt, that it's still not adapting to the new ways of building systems. my conclusion is I like to these exceptions.
ep074 speaker raw (32:31)
product needs other kinds of things that we are not covering now and this is an opportunity for us. But even like in terms of code point of view, sometimes it happens as well in terms of the culture that we need to adapt, that it's still not adapting to the new ways of building systems. my conclusion is I like to these exceptions.
Ben Callahan (32:58)
Not as like, it's super batting. You are not following what we have, but more like, this is an opportunity for us to understand ⁓ why people are not following because everyone will be in great position when we're following this. So they might have a really good reason for not following. things get easier when we start from there and people start to share more. So I like to see this other side of like more than police is more like
ep074 screen raw (32:58)
Not as like, it's super batting. You are not following what we have, but more like, this is an opportunity for us to understand ⁓ why people are not following because everyone will be in great position when we're following this. So they might have a really good reason for not following. things get easier when we start from there and people start to share more. So I like to see this other side of like more than police is more like
ep074 speaker raw (32:58)
Not as like, it's super batting. You are not following what we have, but more like, this is an opportunity for us to understand ⁓ why people are not following because everyone will be in great position when we're following this. So they might have a really good reason for not following. things get easier when we start from there and people start to share more. So I like to see this other side of like more than police is more like
Ben Callahan (33:28)
So it's a confession room like, oh, you can tell me what's happening here and we find a solution. Yeah, I love that perspective, Pedro. It's such a positive take on all this. I'll also just call out here, there was a really interesting correlation. This is related to what we've been covering between questions, the way folks answered question one and the way that they answered question four. So.
ep074 screen raw (33:28)
So it's a confession room like, oh, you can tell me what's happening here and we find a solution. Yeah, I love that perspective, Pedro. It's such a positive take on all this. I'll also just call out here, there was a really interesting correlation. This is related to what we've been covering between questions, the way folks answered question one and the way that they answered question four. So.
ep074 speaker raw (33:28)
So it's a confession room like, oh, you can tell me what's happening here and we find a solution. Yeah, I love that perspective, Pedro. It's such a positive take on all this. I'll also just call out here, there was a really interesting correlation. This is related to what we've been covering between questions, the way folks answered question one and the way that they answered question four. So.
Ben Callahan (33:53)
I did, I worked with Claude a little bit here to kind of after anonymizing the data map the answers to question four, which was the enforcement versus enablement against the answers to question one, which was the amount of visibility. And you can kind of see this story here of like folks with less visibility on the bottom of these rows are looking for more enforcement in the way that they answered. Right. And so as you gain visibility, as you move up this set of these layers from
ep074 screen raw (33:53)
I did, I worked with Claude a little bit here to kind of after anonymizing the data map the answers to question four, which was the enforcement versus enablement against the answers to question one, which was the amount of visibility. And you can kind of see this story here of like folks with less visibility on the bottom of these rows are looking for more enforcement in the way that they answered. Right. And so as you gain visibility, as you move up this set of these layers from
ep074 speaker raw (33:53)
I did, I worked with Claude a little bit here to kind of after anonymizing the data map the answers to question four, which was the enforcement versus enablement against the answers to question one, which was the amount of visibility. And you can kind of see this story here of like folks with less visibility on the bottom of these rows are looking for more enforcement in the way that they answered. Right. And so as you gain visibility, as you move up this set of these layers from
Ben Callahan (34:22)
very little visibility to informal to partial to robust, there's a much more that people are moving more towards. They want significant enablement is kind of what they want. And so I don't know quite sure what to do with this data yet, but it's a really interesting pattern that's very, very clear when you map it out like this. interesting to see that. I've seen this a lot and probably you as well in your, all of your
ep074 screen raw (34:22)
very little visibility to informal to partial to robust, there's ⁓ much more that people are moving more towards. They want significant enablement is kind of what they want. And so I don't know quite sure what to do with this data yet, but it's a really interesting pattern that's very, very clear when you map it out like this. interesting to see that. I've seen this a lot and probably you as well in your, all of your
ep074 speaker raw (34:22)
very little visibility to informal to partial to robust, there's ⁓ much more that people are moving more towards. They want significant enablement is kind of what they want. And so I don't know quite sure what to do with this data yet, but it's a really interesting pattern that's very, very clear when you map it out like this. interesting to see that. I've seen this a lot and probably you as well in your, all of your
Ben Callahan (34:51)
the teams you've been talking to is the maturity scale is typically you build a design system at first because there's so much entropy and chaos in your UI that you want to get to a good space, you know, where things sort of look the same and you get some efficiencies from it. And then as you move up, you're like, oh, wait, what have I done? Like everything now looks the same, even when it shouldn't. And this is to go back to just saying as article, the plateau sameness. it's so good at
ep074 screen raw (34:51)
the teams you've been talking to is the maturity scale is typically you build a design system at first because there's so much entropy and chaos in your UI that you want to get to a good space, you know, where things sort of look the same and you get some efficiencies from it. And then as you move up, you're like, oh, wait, what have I done? Like everything now looks the same, even when it shouldn't. And this is to go back to just saying as article, the plateau sameness. it's so good at
ep074 speaker raw (34:51)
the teams you've been talking to is the maturity scale is typically you build a design system at first because there's so much entropy and chaos in your UI that you want to get to a good space, you know, where things sort of look the same and you get some efficiencies from it. And then as you move up, you're like, oh, wait, what have I done? Like everything now looks the same, even when it shouldn't. And this is to go back to just saying as article, the plateau sameness. Yeah, it's so good at
Ben Callahan (35:20)
explaining the kind of ⁓ how the design system kicks back. And there's another talk I want to point to. It's the design system always kicks back by Kyle Peat, who also was ⁓ a design system leader at Shopify. Incredible talk about the pitfalls, all the failure modes once you start scaling the kind of stuff that just bites you. And there are problems that you don't encounter until
ep074 screen raw (35:20)
explaining the kind of ⁓ how the design system kicks back. And there's another talk I want to point to. It's the design system always kicks back by Kyle Peat, who also was a design system leader at Shopify. Incredible talk about the pitfalls, all the failure modes once you start scaling the kind of stuff that just bites you. And there are problems that you don't encounter until
ep074 speaker raw (35:20)
explaining the kind of ⁓ how the design system kicks back. And there's another talk I want to point to. It's the design system always kicks back by Kyle Peat, who also was a design system leader at Shopify. Incredible talk about the pitfalls, all the failure modes once you start scaling the kind of stuff that just bites you. And there are problems that you don't encounter until
Ben Callahan (35:48)
you have reached a certain level of success and maturity and then you'll have to kind of backtrack and go back to first principles on a few of those. I suppose ⁓ it's a pendulum, right, that swings, you it's like you tighten, you loosen, you tighten, you loosen and hopefully over time you find a good balance. But Stephen, what's up? New thread? wait, I'm sorry. Tonyanne's got a green check mark. Tonyanne, you got a continuation? Yeah, sorry. Okay. Just in there last minute. Yeah, do it.
ep074 screen raw (35:48)
you have reached a certain level of success and maturity and then you'll you have to kind of backtrack and go back to first principles on a few of those. I suppose ⁓ it's a pendulum right that swings you know it's like you tighten you loosen you tighten you loosen and hopefully over time you find a good balance but Stephen what's up new thread wait I'm sorry ToniAnn Ann's got a green check mark ToniAnn Ann you got a continuation? Yeah sorry okay. Just stuck in there last minute ⁓ yeah do it.
ep074 speaker raw (35:48)
you have reached a certain level of success and maturity and then you'll you have to kind of backtrack and go back to first principles on a few of those. I suppose ⁓ it's a pendulum right that swings you know it's like you tighten you loosen you tighten you loosen and hopefully over time you find a good balance but Stephen what's up new thread wait I'm sorry ToniAnn Ann's got a green check mark ToniAnn Ann you got a continuation? Yeah sorry okay. Just stuck in there last minute ⁓ yeah do it.
Ben Callahan (36:16)
I like this correlation. It's really interesting. But it also just, I don't know, this feels to me very human, right? Like the less visibility you have, the more easy it is to make assumptions about why people are doing things and over like, just over indexing on the assumption like, there must be no reason for these deviations. This should be so simple, because you don't know the conversations behind it. You don't know the constraints. You don't know what the product manager is pushing back on the designers for.
ep074 screen raw (36:16)
I like this correlation. It's really interesting. But it also just, I don't know, this feels to me very human, right? Like the less visibility you have, the more easy it is to make assumptions about why people are doing things and over like just over indexing on the assumption. Like there must be no reason for these deviations. This should be so simple because you don't know the conversations behind it. You don't know the constraints. You don't know what the product manager is pushing back on the designers for.
ep074 speaker raw (36:16)
I'm looking at this like this. I like this correlation. It's really interesting. But it also just I know this feels to me very human, right? Like the less the less visibility you have, the more easy it is to make assumptions about why people are doing things and over it like just over indexing on the assumption like there must be no reason for these deviations. This is this should be so simple because you don't know the conversations behind it. You don't know the constraints. You don't know what the product manager is pushing back on the designers for. ⁓
Ben Callahan (36:46)
And so the more I've learned in any systems role, when I'm able to talk to people, the more I'm able to appreciate their thinking. Sometimes it's not there. Sometimes it is just a miss. But when it's there around why they haven't used the design system. And so those moments for me become more about, OK, how can I help you? How can I have these better ⁓ discussions around critical thinking? And when it's not there, it just seems really easy to just
ep074 screen raw (36:46)
And so the more I've learned in any systems role, when I'm able to talk to people, the more I'm able to appreciate their thinking. Sometimes it's not there. Sometimes it is just a miss. But when it's there around why they haven't used the design system. And so those moments for me become more about, OK, how can I help you? How can I have these better ⁓ discussions around critical thinking? And when it's not there, it just seems really easy to just
ep074 speaker raw (36:46)
And so the more I've learned in any systems role, when I'm able to talk to people, the more I'm able to appreciate their thinking. Sometimes it's not there, sometimes it is just a miss, but when it's there around why they haven't used the design system. And so those moments for me become more about like, how can I help you? How can I have these better ⁓ discussions around like critical thinking? And when it's not there, it just seems really easy to just...
Ben Callahan (37:15)
reach for that enforcement tool and just want that because it just feels really chaotic. So I just I don't know, it just feels like a very human problem to have this type of correlation show up. Yeah. What a great observation. And it's so true. It's like the solution to so many of our problems is talk to people. It's just like, go talk, you know, sit down. Yeah. Thanks, ToniAnn. And Stephen, a continuation. Thanks for the switch up. Yeah, sorry. Still getting used to the green checks. No problem.
ep074 screen raw (37:15)
reach for that enforcement tool and just want that because it just feels really chaotic. So I just I don't know, it just feels like a very human problem to have this type of correlation show up. Yeah. What a great observation. And it's so true. It's like the solution to so many of our problems is talk to people. It's just like, go talk, you know, sit down. Yeah. Thanks, ToniAnn. And Stephen, a continuation. Thanks for the switch up. Yeah. Sorry. Still getting used to the green checks. No problem.
ep074 speaker raw (37:15)
reach for that enforcement tool and just want that because it just feels really chaotic. So I just I don't know, it just feels like a very human problem to have this type of correlation show up. Yeah. What a great observation. And it's so true. It's like the solution to so many of our problems is talk to people. It's just like, go talk, you know, sit down. Yeah. Thanks, ToniAnn. And Stephen, a continuation. Thanks for the switch up. Yeah. Sorry. Still getting used to the green checks. No problem.
Ben Callahan (37:44)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what ToniAnn I just mentioned kind of is in line with what I was going to say originally. ⁓ I think, you know, this stuff is the enforcement. think it's a very, it's a very human thing, right? Cause I think people, people lean on that because it's very human to just want to have some, you know, to have more flexibility to do what you want, I think in a lot of situations. And I think people will come to us and say things like that and be like, well, you know, if, I need to follow these guidelines more like
ep074 screen raw (37:44)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what ToniAnn, I just mentioned kind of is in line with what I was going to say originally. ⁓ I think, you know, this stuff is the enforcement. think it's a very, it's a very human thing, right? Cause I think people, people lean on that because it's very human to just want to have some, you know, to have more flexibility to do what you want, I think in a lot of situations. And I think people will come to us and say things like that and be like, well, you know, if, I need to follow these guidelines more like
ep074 speaker raw (37:44)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, what ToniAnn, I just mentioned kind of is in line with what I was going to say originally. ⁓ I think, you know, this stuff is the enforcement. think it's a very, it's a very human thing, right? Cause I think people, people lean on that because it's very human to just want to have some, you know, to have more flexibility to do what you want, I think in a lot of situations. And I think people will come to us and say things like that and be like, well, you know, if, I need to follow these guidelines more like
Ben Callahan (38:14)
can you put something in place that helps enforce that? Because people are creative and they want to go off in different directions. That's, think, completely natural for people to want to do. I in the age of AI, this is flipping a little bit, right? And that's where I see it moving more to enablement, because now our users are coming to us and say, can you just enable us to do this with AI? We'll follow your guidelines and do what you want, but the AI has to output the things in the right way.
ep074 screen raw (38:14)
can you put something in place that helps enforce that? Because people are creative and they want to go off in different directions. That's, think, completely natural for people to want to do. I in the age of AI, this is flipping a little bit, right? And that's where I see it moving more to enablement, because now our users are coming to us and say, can you just enable us to do this with AI? We'll follow your guidelines and do what you want, but the AI has to output the things in the right way.
ep074 speaker raw (38:14)
Can you put something in place that helps enforce that? Because people are creative and they want to go off in different directions. That's, think, completely natural for people to want to do. I in the age of AI, this is flipping a little bit, right? And that's where I see it moving more to enablement, because now our users are coming to us and say, can you just enable us to do this with AI? We'll follow your guidelines and do what you want, but the AI has to output the things in the right way.
Ben Callahan (38:43)
Right. So I think, you know, it seems like the enablement is starting to push on these threads a little bit more. Yeah. You know, with AI and I think even with this analytics and getting visibility into stuff, we've kind of shifted our thinking into trying to understand, you know, not so much anymore. Like why did a human diverge from the system? But why did an AI agent diverge? Yeah. You know, we've started thinking about it that way because, you know, the output is going up.
ep074 speaker raw (38:43)
Right. So I think, you know, it seems like the enablement is starting to push on these threads a little bit more. Yeah. You know, with AI and I think even with this analytics and getting visibility into stuff, we've kind of shifted our thinking into trying to understand, you know, not so much anymore. Like, why did a human diverge from the system? But why did an AI agent diverge? Yeah. You know, we've started thinking about it that way because, you know, the output is going up.
ep074 screen raw (38:43)
Right. So I think, you know, it seems like the enablement is starting to push on these threads a little bit more. Yeah. You know, with AI and I think even with this analytics and getting visibility into stuff, we've kind of shifted our thinking into trying to understand, you know, not so much anymore. Like why did a human diverge from the system? But why did an AI agent diverge? Yeah. You know, we've started thinking about it that way because, you know, the output is going up.
Ben Callahan (39:13)
dramatically, right? So really, like any data you might have collected on usage before AI is almost not as useful anymore, in my opinion, because you're going to see a huge curve in terms of the amount of stuff that's being created. ⁓ You know, and people aren't going to look at it, right? So if AI is not doing it right, your problem is going to get exponentially worse. Yeah, as people diverge. So yeah, thanks, Steven. Robin, you got a continuation.
ep074 screen raw (39:13)
dramatically, right? So really, like any data you might have collected on usage before AI is almost not as useful anymore, in my opinion, because you're going to see a huge curve in terms of the amount of stuff that's being created. ⁓ You know, and people aren't going to look at it, right? So if AI is not doing it right, your problem is going to get exponentially worse. Yeah, as people diverge. So yeah, thanks, Steven. Robin, you got a continuation.
ep074 speaker raw (39:13)
dramatically, right? So really, like any data you might have collected on usage before AI is almost not as useful anymore, in my opinion, because you're going to see a huge curve in terms of the amount of stuff that's being created. ⁓ You know, and people aren't going to look at it, right? So if AI is not doing it right, your problem is going to get exponentially worse. Yeah, as people diverge. So yeah, thanks, Steven. Robin, you got a continuation.
Ben Callahan (39:41)
Yeah, I was thinking about like the ⁓ enforcement enablement because one thing that maybe I'm thinking is that like right now, like for example, in the way it's visualized, it seems like they are two competing things. It's either one or the other. And I'm thinking that, I mean, actually in systems, because it's such a complex topic, you have both and they are like intertwined. Like you...
ep074 screen raw (39:41)
Yeah, I was thinking about like the enforcement enablement because one thing that maybe I'm thinking is that like right now, like for example, in the way it's visualized, it seems like they are two competing things. It's either one or the other. And I'm thinking that, I mean, actually in systems, because it's such a complex topic, you have both and they are like intertwined. Like you...
ep074 speaker raw (39:41)
Yeah, I was thinking about the enforcement enablement because one thing that maybe I'm thinking is that right now, for example, the way it's visualized, it seems like they are two competing things. It's either one or the other. And I'm thinking that, I mean, actually in systems, because it's such a complex topic, you have both and they are intertwined.
Ben Callahan (40:07)
you have enablement in some areas, but then you enforce others. And then that's always a discussion what in a team in a company specifically, you want to probably define what do we want to enforce? What do we want to, and when do we want to enable? Like where are the areas where we want to be more strict versus more flexible? ⁓ And I think, yeah, like I think that the...
ep074 screen raw (40:07)
you have enablement in some areas, but then you enforce others. And then that's always a discussion what in a team in a company specifically, you want to probably define what do we want to enforce? What do we want to, and when do we want to enable? Like where are the areas where we want to be more strict versus more flexible? ⁓ And I think, yeah, like I think that the...
ep074 speaker raw (40:07)
you have enablement in some areas, but then you enforce others. And then that's always a discussion what in a team in a company specifically, you want to probably define what do we want to enforce? What do we want to, and when do we want to enable? Like where are the areas where we want to be more strict versus more flexible? ⁓ And I think, yeah, like I think that the...
Ben Callahan (40:32)
maybe seeing them as either or ⁓ might be wrong to, probably the discussion, it depends, like you enforce what and you enable what, like, cause sometimes in the case of designers, like, ⁓ you can give designers freedom, but you might be agree that you enforce them in a certain color palette. like in a way you give them total freedom, but you say, use these colors. So is that enablement or enforcement? It's like a mix of the two, right? Because you would say, go ahead and think like Greenfield
ep074 screen raw (40:32)
maybe seeing them as either or ⁓ might be wrong to, probably the discussion, it depends, like you enforce what and you enable what, like, cause sometimes in the case of designers, like, ⁓ you can give designers freedom, but you might be agree that you enforce them in a certain color palette. like in a way you give them total freedom, but you say, use these colors. So is that enablement or enforcement? It's like a mix of the two, right? Because you would say, go ahead and think like Greenfield,
ep074 speaker raw (40:32)
maybe seeing them as either or ⁓ might be wrong to, probably the discussion, it depends, like you enforce what and you enable what, like, cause sometimes in the case of designers, like, ⁓ you can give designers freedom, but you might be agree that you enforce them in a certain color palette. like in a way you give them total freedom, but you say, use these colors. So is that enablement or enforcement? It's like a mix of the two, right? Because you would say, go ahead and think like Greenfield,
Ben Callahan (41:02)
like don't follow our components, but follow our tier one tokens, for example. So you enforce a certain area of the system, but you enable that. And so you can play around with this scale in many different things. it can be, I think it can be both. And it's a discussion that teams have to have. That's a good point, Robin. This is something I keep finding myself coming back to, which is that I believe the system needs to be really flexible to allow for anything, but we have to build into our cultures.
ep074 screen raw (41:02)
like don't follow our components, but follow our tier one tokens, for example. So you enforce a certain area of the system, but you enable that. And so you can play around with this scale in many different things. it can be, I think it can be both. And it's a discussion that teams have to have. That's a good point, Robin. This is something I keep finding myself coming back to, which is that I believe the system needs to be really flexible to allow for anything, but we have to build into our cultures.
ep074 speaker raw (41:02)
like don't follow our components, but follow our tier one tokens, for example. So you enforce a certain area of the system, but you enable that. And so you can play around with this scale in many different things. it can be, I think it can be both. And it's a discussion that teams have to have. That's a good point, Robin. This is something I keep finding myself coming back to, which is that I believe the system needs to be really flexible to allow for anything, but we have to build into our cultures.
Ben Callahan (41:29)
the desire for people to make really good choices, right? It's like pushing the choice to the end users, but basically creating a culture where it's like, we are all working towards the same thing. We want the same things. That's really hard work. That's like years long work, but that's, think in my mind, the healthiest approach here so that people don't feel policed. They're like, I'm just doing what we do. This is how we work. ⁓ Greg, what's up?
ep074 screen raw (41:29)
the desire for people to make really good choices, right? It's like pushing the choice to the end users, but basically creating a culture where it's like, we are all working towards the same thing. We want the same things. That's really hard work. That's like years long work, but that's, think in my mind, the healthiest approach here so that people don't feel policed. They're like, I'm just doing what we do. This is how we work. ⁓ Greg, what's up?
ep074 speaker raw (41:29)
the desire for people to make really good choices, right? It's like pushing the choice to the end users, but basically creating a culture where it's like, we are all working towards the same thing. We want the same things. That's really hard work. That's like years long work, but that's, think in my mind, the healthiest approach here so that people don't feel policed. They're like, I'm just doing what we do. This is how we work. ⁓ Greg, what's up?
Ben Callahan (41:59)
So one of the things that I've been thinking about with this is as I'm starting to like work with skills and doing stuff that's kind of on the, that is a mixture of like enablement and enforcement in a way is I'm noticing that there is a opportunity to try to bake in, ⁓ we have a rule for this thing. It is sort of this level of strictness or flexible.
ep074 screen raw (41:59)
So one of the things that I've been thinking about with this is as I'm starting to like work with skills and doing stuff that's kind of on the, that is a mixture of like enablement and enforcement in a way is I'm noticing that there is a opportunity to try to bake in, ⁓ we have a rule for this thing. It is sort of this level of strictness or flexible.
ep074 speaker raw (41:59)
So one of the things that I've been thinking about with this is as I'm starting to like work with skills and doing stuff that's kind of on the, that is a mixture of like enablement and enforcement in a way is I'm noticing that there is a opportunity to try to bake in, ⁓ we have a rule for this thing. It is sort of this kind, this level of strictness or flexible.
Ben Callahan (42:30)
We have to define that so AI can look at it and see how it should be thinking. But it's also sort of an inflection point to be like, hey, like stop and ask the human that's using the AI to acknowledge, hey, I want to break this rule or I want to stick with this rule. there's either an opportunity to have that built in.
ep074 screen raw (42:30)
We have to define that so AI can look at it and see how it should be thinking. But it's also sort of an inflection point to be like, hey, like stop and ask the human that's using the AI to acknowledge, hey, I want to break this rule or I want to stick with this rule. there's either an opportunity to have that built in.
ep074 speaker raw (42:30)
We have to define that so AI can look at it and see how it should be thinking. But it's also sort of an inflection point to be like, hey, like stop and ask the human that's using the AI to acknowledge, hey, I want to break this rule or I want to stick with this rule. there's either an opportunity to have that built in.
Ben Callahan (43:00)
or for AI to just steamroll and like change, say you're trying to adapt a design into code and you're trying to do that workflow. Well, it'll just change a bunch of things. If it just follows all the rules, it'll change your design to like match the rules without even telling you that it's changing stuff. So there's an opportunity in these types of situations to like build in a layer where it goes, Hey, I'm going to deviate from what you did. Here's what I did. Or.
ep074 screen raw (43:00)
or for AI to just steamroll and like change, say you're trying to adapt a design into code and you're trying to do that workflow. Well, it'll just change a bunch of things. If it just follows all the rules, it'll change your design to like match the rules without even telling you that it's changing stuff. So there's an opportunity in these types of situations to like build in a layer where it goes, Hey, I'm going to deviate from what you did. Here's what I did. Or.
ep074 speaker raw (43:00)
or for AI to just steamroll and like change, say you're trying to adapt a design into code and you're trying to do that workflow. Well, it'll just change a bunch of things. If it just follows all the rules, it'll change your design to like match the rules without even telling you that it's changing stuff. So there's an opportunity in these types of situations to like build in a layer where it goes, Hey, I'm going to deviate from what you did. Here's what I did. Or.
Ben Callahan (43:30)
Here, let me ask you if you want to deviate, those kinds of things. ⁓ what's interesting about that too is that those opportunities weren't there before because if you don't see the guidance, you don't know about it. You don't know you're doing something that maybe someone's thought about before. You're just using your instinct, uninformed of a greater context that you're supposed to be aware of.
ep074 screen raw (43:30)
Here, let me ask you if you want to deviate, those kinds of things. what's interesting about that too is that those opportunities weren't there before because if you don't see the guidance, you don't know about it. You don't know you're doing something that maybe someone's thought about before. You're just using your instinct, uninformed of a greater context that you're supposed to be aware of.
ep074 speaker raw (43:30)
Here, let me ask you if you want to deviate, those kinds of things. ⁓ what's interesting about that too is that those opportunities weren't there before because if you don't see the guidance, you don't know about it. You don't know you're doing something that maybe someone's thought about before. You're just using your instinct, uninformed of a greater context that you're supposed to be aware of.
Ben Callahan (43:56)
Yeah. ⁓ in some ways that's kind of cool and exciting, but also in some ways, like how we architect those things, ⁓ can become more enforcement or enablement depending on how you present those opportunities. Yeah, that's, that's a good observation, Greg. I remember from our last episode with Davey, we had sort of like two extreme different, extremely different views of the sort of human in the loop role.
ep074 screen raw (43:56)
Yeah. ⁓ in some ways that's kind of cool and exciting, but also in some ways, like how we architect those things, ⁓ can become more enforcement or enablement depending on how you present those opportunities. Yeah, that's, that's a good observation, Greg. I remember from our last episode with Davey, we had sort of like two extreme different, extremely different views of the sort of human in the loop role.
ep074 speaker raw (43:56)
Yeah. ⁓ in some ways that's kind of cool and exciting, but also in some ways, like how we architect those things, ⁓ can become more enforcement or enablement depending on how you present those opportunities. Yeah, that's, that's a good observation, Greg. I remember from our last episode with Davey, we had sort of like two extreme different, extremely different views of the sort of human in the loop role.
Ben Callahan (44:23)
And one of those was very much like, what you're describing, Greg, along the way, give me checks. I want to make sure that everything's going well. I'm in the loop in a regular sort of cadence of iteration. And the other was just do the stuff and show me at the end and I'll give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And those are like very different approaches. Right. And maybe we need some of both, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, idea that we pulled from, from last week's or last episode. Any other thoughts we've got just a couple minutes left.
ep074 screen raw (44:23)
And one of those was very much like, what you're describing, Greg, along the way, give me checks. I want to make sure that everything's going well. I'm in the loop in a regular sort of cadence of iteration. And the other was just do the stuff and show me at the end and I'll give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And those are like very different approaches. Right. And maybe we need some of both, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, idea that we pulled from, from last week's or last episode. Any other thoughts we've got just a couple minutes left.
ep074 speaker raw (44:23)
And one of those was very much like, what you're describing, Greg, along the way, give me checks. I want to make sure that everything's going well. I'm in the loop in a regular sort of cadence of iteration. And the other was just do the stuff and show me at the end and I'll give you a thumbs up or a thumbs down. And those are like very different approaches. Right. And maybe we need some of both, but, um, that was an interesting, uh, idea that we pulled from, from last week's or last episode. Any other thoughts we've got just a couple minutes left.
And then we will be wrapping up here.
Ben Callahan (44:52)
And then we will be wrapping up here.
ep074 screen raw (44:52)
And then we will be wrapping up here.
Ben Callahan (44:57)
Danita, do you want to ask that out loud or do you want me to read it? ⁓ I can ask it, I guess. So I was asking what level of accountability should the person who's creating the thing have on whether or not the AI is conforming to the design system? Is it all on the design systems team to check it? I feel like the first level is the person who's, like if we're enabling people, they should have some accountability to at least notice.
ep074 screen raw (44:57)
Danita, do you want to ask that out loud or do you want me to read it? ⁓ I can ask it, I guess. So I was asking what level of accountability should the person who's creating the thing have on whether or not the AI is conforming to the design system? Is it all on the design systems team to check it? I feel like the first level is the person who's, like if we're enabling people, they should have some accountability to at least notice.
ep074 speaker raw (44:57)
Danita, do you want to ask that out loud or do you want me to read it? ⁓ I can ask it, I guess. So I was asking what level of accountability should the person who's creating the thing have on whether or not the AI is conforming to the design system? Is it all on the design systems team to check it? I feel like the first level is the person who's, like if we're enabling people, they should have some accountability to at least notice.
Ben Callahan (45:27)
Yeah, glaring mistake. Yeah. Kaelig thoughts? yeah. Yeah, it's tough because design system teams typically it's passionate people who really want other builders to build awesome stuff. And you need to have visibility over what those folks are doing and how they're using your system to understand how you can even further improve how they're building. ⁓ But
ep074 screen raw (45:27)
Yeah, glaring mistake. Yeah. Kaelig, thoughts? yeah. Yeah, it's tough because design system teams typically it's passionate people who really want other builders to build awesome stuff. And you need to have visibility over what those folks are doing and how they're using your system to understand how you can even further improve how they're building. ⁓ But
ep074 speaker raw (45:27)
man glaring mistake. Kayleigh, thoughts? yeah. Yeah, it's it's tough because design system teams typically it's passionate people who really want other builders to build awesome stuff. And you need to have visibility over what those folks are doing and how they're using your system to understand how you can even further improve how they're building. ⁓ But
Ben Callahan (45:56)
It really depends on the talent pool you're serving. If you're serving AI agents who are poorly trained or if you're ⁓ very junior designers who have maybe very little experience building product, then you need more oversight. But if you're at a company that hires only top, top, top design talent, ⁓ then you need to give them a lot more trust and empowerment.
ep074 screen raw (45:56)
It really depends on the talent pool you're serving. If you're serving AI agents who are poorly trained, or if you're ⁓ very junior designers who have maybe very little experience building product, then you need more oversight. But if you're at a company that hires only top, top, top design talent, ⁓ then you need to give them a lot more trust and empowerment.
ep074 speaker raw (45:56)
It really depends on the talent pool you're serving. If you're serving AI agents who are poorly trained, or if you're ⁓ very junior designers who have maybe very little experience building product, then you need more oversight. But if you're at a company that hires only top, top, top design talent, ⁓ then you need to give them a lot more trust and empowerment.
Ben Callahan (46:25)
Otherwise, that talent is just going to move on. They want to build cool stuff and they know how to do their jobs extremely well. ⁓ So it depends as it always is. yeah, trying to put that cursor in the right spot ⁓ is important. I think in high trust cultures, there are some choices that are way easier to make than in...
ep074 screen raw (46:25)
Otherwise, that talent is just going to move on. They want to build cool stuff and they know how to do their jobs extremely well. ⁓ So it depends as it always is. yeah, trying to put that cursor in the right spot ⁓ is important. I think in high trust cultures, there are some choices that are way easier to make than in...
ep074 speaker raw (46:25)
Otherwise, that talent is just going to move on. They want to build cool stuff and they know how to do their jobs extremely well. ⁓ So it depends as it always is. yeah, trying to put that cursor in the right spot ⁓ is important. I think in high trust cultures, there are some choices that are way easier to make than in...
Ben Callahan (46:53)
low trust ones and low trust cultures, you need a lot of policing, a lot of visibility. if, if you think that, yeah, it depends on how you think about design as well as a company, is it something that you have to do so that there is some sort of alignment step at some point during the product development lifecycle, and it feels like you couldn't do the cost of
ep074 screen raw (46:53)
low trust ones and low trust cultures, you need a lot of policy, a lot of visibility. if, if you think that, yeah, it depends on how you think about design as well as a company, is it something that you have to do so that there is some sort of alignment step at some point during the product development lifecycle, and it feels like you couldn't do the cost of
ep074 speaker raw (46:53)
low trust ones and low trust cultures, you need a lot of policing, a lot of visibility. if you think that, yeah, it depends on how you think about design as well as a company, is it something that you have to do so that there is some sort of alignment step at some point during the product development lifecycle, and it feels like you couldn't do the cost of
Ben Callahan (47:19)
doing it in code would be so high that you'd need to have Figma somewhere at some point or a design tool to sketch out those ideas. Or can you get closer to production very early on, in which case the role of the design system, the role of designers shifts.
ep074 screen raw (47:19)
doing it in code would be so high that you'd need to have Figma somewhere at some point or a design tool to sketch out those ideas. Or can you get closer to production very early on, in which case the role of the design system, the role of designers shifts.
ep074 speaker raw (47:19)
Doing it in code would be so high that you'd need to have Figma somewhere at some point or a design tool to sketch out those ideas. Or can you get closer to production very early on, in which case the role of the design system, the role of designers shifts.
Ben Callahan (47:38)
And then I don't know how much we're on the towards the end of the call here. One thing that people have been bringing up to me is there are some things you don't want to compromise on. that's things like accessibility or enforcement becomes a lot higher stakes, especially in regulated environments. ⁓ And yes, you can give.
ep074 screen raw (47:38)
And then I don't know how much we're on the towards the end of the call here. One thing that people have been bringing up to me is there are some things you don't want to compromise on. that's things like accessibility or enforcement becomes a lot higher stakes, especially in regulated environments. ⁓ And yes, you can give.
ep074 speaker raw (47:38)
And then I don't know how much we're on the towards the end of the call here. One thing that people have been bringing up to me is there are some things you don't want to compromise on. that's things like accessibility or enforcement becomes a lot higher stakes, especially in regulated environments. ⁓ And yes, you can give
Ben Callahan (48:02)
a very long leash to people, designers and developers when it comes to those things when they're prototyping. But when it comes to shipping to production, all of a sudden, you need visibility, you need enforcement. ⁓ And people might also like might be ignorant of those best practices. Like it's not, it's not very well taught. It's accessibility super hard. It's not not like a checkbox. just, you just check and ship. So there, there's a spectrum.
ep074 screen raw (48:02)
a very long leash to people, designers and developers when it comes to those things when they're prototyping. But when it comes to shipping to production, all of a sudden, you need visibility, you need enforcement. ⁓ And people might also like might be ignorant of those best practices. Like it's not, it's not very well taught. It's accessibility super hard. It's not not like a checkbox. just, you just check and ship. So there, there's a spectrum.
ep074 speaker raw (48:02)
a very long leash to people, designers and developers when it comes to those things when they're prototyping. But when it comes to shipping to production, all of a sudden, you need visibility, you need enforcement. ⁓ And people might also like might be ignorant of those best practices. Like it's not, it's not very well taught. It's accessibility super hard. It's not not like a checkbox. just, you just check and ship. So there, there's a spectrum.
Ben Callahan (48:32)
of where you want your enforcement to be. I ⁓ somebody said earlier, maybe the token level, the foundational level is where you need to have a lot of enforcement. And as you go up the stack, ⁓ a lot less. So anyway, I don't think we have a definite answer on all of these things. this is super interesting. I'm going to keep digging into the data. And I'm writing a piece about the fabric of design systems in the age of AI right now and what it means to be a design system practitioner.
ep074 screen raw (48:32)
of where you want your enforcement to be. I ⁓ somebody said earlier, maybe the token level, the foundational level is where you need to have a lot of enforcement. And as you go up the stack, a lot less. So anyway, I don't think we have a definite answer on all of these things. this is super interesting. I'm going to keep digging into the data. And I'm writing a piece about the fabric of design systems in the age of AI right now and what it means to be a design system practitioner.
ep074 speaker raw (48:32)
of where you want your enforcement to be. I ⁓ somebody said earlier, maybe the token level, the foundational level is where you need to have a lot of enforcement. And as you go up the stack, ⁓ a lot less. So anyway, I don't think we have a definite answer on all of these things. this is super interesting. I'm going to keep digging into the data. And I'm writing a piece about the fabric of design systems in the age of AI right now and what it means to be a design system practitioner.
Ben Callahan (49:01)
So all of these questions, that was just me fishing for a lot of information and context. I'm so thankful that folks came up with. Yeah. Thank you, Kailig. We are going to wrap up here. ⁓ There's two questions in the FigJam, these yellow stickies towards the top right. If you have a moment, jump in, drag a sticky note up and drop your answer. I would love to continue to see those. ⁓ And as we're wrapping, just a couple quick announcements. There's...
ep074 screen raw (49:01)
So all of these questions, that was just me fishing for a lot of information and context. I'm so thankful that folks came up with. Yeah. Thank you, Kailig. We are going to wrap up here. ⁓ There's two questions in the FigJam, these yellow stickies towards the top right. If you have a moment, jump in, drag a sticky note up and drop your answer. I would love to continue to see those. ⁓ And as we're wrapping, just a couple quick announcements. There's...
ep074 speaker raw (49:01)
So all of these questions, that was just me fishing for a lot of information and context. I'm so thankful that folks came up with. Yeah. Thank you, Kailig. We are going to wrap up here. ⁓ There's two questions in the FigJam, these yellow stickies towards the top right. If you have a moment, jump in, drag a sticky note up and drop your answer. I would love to continue to see those. ⁓ And as we're wrapping, just a couple quick announcements. There's...
Ben Callahan (49:27)
Tons of stuff from the Redwoods community here. These folks are always writing. We're always sharing what we're learning. So come down and check out some of these. ⁓ Also, ⁓ the Redwoods community has been working on a concept called the Redwoods Compass, which is a ⁓ tool to help you and your systems team just better create conversation and dialogue around some of the areas where you could use improvement or where you're doing well.
ep074 screen raw (49:27)
Tons of stuff from the Redwoods community here. These folks are always writing. We're always sharing what we're learning. So come down and check out some of these. ⁓ Also, ⁓ the Redwoods community has been working on a concept called the Redwoods Compass, which is a ⁓ tool to help you and your systems team just better create conversation and dialogue around some of the areas where you could use improvement or where you're doing well.
ep074 speaker raw (49:27)
Tons of stuff from the Redwoods community here. These folks are always writing. We're always sharing what we're learning. So come down and check out some of these. ⁓ Also, ⁓ the Redwoods community has been working on a concept called the Redwoods Compass, which is a ⁓ tool to help you and your systems team just better create conversation and dialogue around some of the areas where you could use improvement or where you're doing well.
Ben Callahan (49:50)
So there's a sort of an alpha launch of this out here and we're looking for folks to test that and then to sign up to do a little qualitative interview with the folks who are running that. Robin is on the call here. He's been helping lead that charge. So if you're interested in that, we'd love to get your feedback there. And then I'm really excited to of officially announce that ⁓ at config in June, we have two sponsors who've stepped up to help us make a Redwoods community hike happen. So.
ep074 screen raw (49:50)
So there's a sort of an alpha launch of this out here and we're looking for folks to test that and then to sign up to do a little qualitative interview with the folks who are running that. Robin is on the call here. He's been helping lead that charge. So if you're interested in that, we'd love to get your feedback there. And then I'm really excited to of officially announce that ⁓ at config in June, we have two sponsors who've stepped up to help us make a Redwoods community hike happen. So.
ep074 speaker raw (49:50)
So there's a sort of an alpha launch of this out here and we're looking for folks to test that and then to sign up to do a little qualitative interview with the folks who are running that. Robin is on the call here. He's been helping lead that charge. So if you're interested in that, we'd love to get your feedback there. And then I'm really excited to of officially announce that ⁓ at config in June, we have two sponsors who've stepped up to help us make a Redwoods community hike happen. So.
Ben Callahan (50:18)
You don't have to be in Redwoods to attend, but you can click this link here to get on the list. There's a limited number of spots available for this. ⁓ We're going to go to Muir Woods, which is where the coastal Redwoods, the massive coastal Redwoods are. So if you're going to be in ⁓ SF for Config, please consider joining us. We would love to see you there. Even if you're not going to Config, you can still come hang out. So get on that list and we'll keep you posted. And massive thanks to Sparkbox and to Brad and the South Left.
ep074 screen raw (50:18)
You don't have to be in Redwoods to attend, but you can click this link here to get on the list. There's a limited number of spots available for this. ⁓ We're going to go to Muir Woods, which is where the coastal Redwoods, the massive coastal Redwoods are. So if you're going to be in ⁓ SF for Config, please consider joining us. We would love to see you there. Even if you're not going to Config, you can still come hang out. So get on that list and we'll keep you posted. And massive thanks to Sparkbox and to Brad and the South Left.
ep074 speaker raw (50:18)
You don't have to be in Redwoods to attend, but you can click this link here to get on the list. There's a limited number of spots available for this. ⁓ We're going to go to Muir Woods, which is where the coastal Redwoods, the massive coastal Redwoods are. So if you're going to be in ⁓ SF for Config, please consider joining us. We would love to see you there. Even if you're not going to Config, you can still come hang out. So get on that list and we'll keep you posted. And massive thanks to Sparkbox and to Brad and the South Left.
Ben Callahan (50:48)
who have got their new AI and Design Systems course coming up soon. Please click these links to go visit their sites and let them know you appreciate the support. ⁓ That's all we've got time for today, folks. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate your generosity with your knowledge, and I'm sorry that we've run a little long today. Kaelig, you rock, buddy. Thanks so much.
ep074 screen raw (50:48)
who have got their new AI and Design Systems course coming up soon. Please click these links to go visit their sites and let them know you appreciate the support. ⁓ That's all we've got time for today, folks. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate your generosity with your knowledge, and I'm sorry that we've run a little long today. Kaelig, you rock, buddy. Thanks so much.
ep074 speaker raw (50:48)
who have got their new AI and Design Systems course coming up soon. Please click these links to go visit their sites and let them know you appreciate the support. ⁓ That's all we've got time for today, folks. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate your generosity with your knowledge, and I'm sorry that we've run a little long today. Kaelig, you rock, buddy. Thanks so much.
Ben Callahan (51:07)
you for having me. Yes, see you all soon. Cheers, bye bye.
ep074 speaker raw (51:07)
you for having me. Yes, see you all soon. Cheers. Bye bye.
ep074 screen raw (51:07)
you for having me. Yes, see you all soon. Cheers. Bye bye.
Ben Callahan (51:12)
Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of The Question. Remember, you can get access to the raw data, the collaborative FigJam, and all of the recordings for this episode and many more on my website, bencallahan.com If you or your team could use an outside perspective on your design system program, I'd be honored to support you in that way. There's more information about my coaching and consulting offerings over on the website.
And if you need a hand building a sustainable design system program, my studio Sparkbox is standing by ready to partner. Reach out and let's see if there's a good fit. Thanks for being here and remember, stay in learning mode.
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