S4 EP06: The Canine Perspective

So force free training used to be called positive reinforcement training. It's all about rewarding and reinforcing the dog for behavior that you like so that you can start to teach the dog the behavior that's desirable. Because let's face it, we have enough trouble communicating with our own species. Everybody that lives with a member of the opposite sex knows we have enough trouble communicating with our own species. And here we are

attempting to communicate with another species. Dogs are incredible at being able to work out what it is we're going on about because half the time we don't even know. And they're so amazing at being able to work it out. But at the end of the day, we are still communicating with another species. And so it's much easier for them to work out what you do want than to try and work out all of the other stuff that you don't want. Hello hormans and puggies. Welcome to the Pugwash show brought

to you by Pug Party Parties. Because your pug deserves to be the best dressed at the porty. And you can check out the Pugs and stripes collection@pugparties.com I'm your host, Donna, and with me are my puggy co hosts Rosie and Kenji with their rescue foster brother Buster. Today I'm thrilled to welcome bestselling author and certified force free trainer, Sarah Rum.

If you've ever wondered how to deepen that magical bond with your puggy without ever raising a voice, then you're in the right place. Sarah's book, the Canine Perspective is a treasure trove of compassionate science backed techniques. And she's not just an expert on paper, she's a bona fide crazy pug lady too. With over 20 years of hands on experience, wrangling, pampering and learning from her very own lovable grumble. In this episode, we'll fetch you fantastic behaviour

hacks. Dig into a bit of fun canine science. Yes, we do get a little bit nerdy and we also swap some heartwarming and slightly hilarious pugtails straight from Sarah's home. So leash up, settle in and get ready for a positively delightful chat you won't want to snooze through. But before we zoom in, I want to remind you to subscribe to our newsletter in the show notes so you get advanced notice of our next

episode and much, much more. Hello Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the Puglia show to talk about your amazing book, the Canine Perspective. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Oh now it's wonderful. Now let's start with. Tell us a little bit about yourself and about the book and about

your credentials. Even though I am going to say one thing, you've got something missing from your credentials list on your website and. That would be Padma. I think it's really important I haven't listed that I'm a pug mum. Okay. I know. I. A canine behavior specialist based here in Australia based on the Sunshine coast. Actually. I have been doing this for 21 years, which makes me a lot older than I care to admit. And I know. So I have a number of qualifications in canine behavior and

training. A cert, foreign dog behavioral training, a qualification through the CAM Prior academy. I have a diploma in canine behavior and science and technology and another qualification that required me to sit a three hour exam. That was, that was a fun day. So I, I've done about four or five years of study in canine behavior and training and I, I update my knowledge every year as well. This year I think I'm speaking at

one of the conferences. Hopefully I'm waiting to hear back on that. So it's. And then yes, wrote a book, decided to put all of my 21 years of knowledge into a book that happened last year where it launched on Amazon in August of last year and went number one in 11 categories which blew my mind in about 48 hours. So yeah, yeah, really, really amazing. So the book is aimed at, I don't like to use the word average dog owners, amazing dog guardians, let's put it that way.

It's very easy to read. I wanted, I wanted to make people laugh. You know, a lot of dog training books out there, they're pretty dry. I wanted to make people laugh, I wanted to make people cry. Spoiler alert. You might need tissues for the last chapter. And I wanted to make people go, oh, I didn't realize my dog did that. Or oh, that I, I didn't even know that about, about dogs. So I wanted to

have some aha moments where people went, that's super interesting. So that was, that was the aim and it's been a pretty fun ride ever since. No, it's, it definitely ticked all those boxes. As I was saying offline before we got on, I read a lot of books and so I definitely wanted to read yours because it's probably the first Australian written dog book. Anything that I've read in quite a while that wasn't Pig the Pug or, or the Diary of a Pug.

And it was just with every book I read, I learn Something new and I relearn something that I had completely forgotten. And I just love the fact that each chapter, it's very logical. So even if you, you don't want to read the chapter about puppies, you can actually just skip forward to the chapter about anxiety. And at the end of every chapter you have these great little almost executive

summaries, for want of a better term. So I know that in preparation for today's catch up because I had read it while I was renovating the house. So I'd paint an entire part of the house and then sit down for an hour while I waited for the paint to dry and

I'd read a chapter and then I'd go back to painting. So was having, having the, having the executive summaries was very handy to like re trigger my memory as to, as to what I wanted to talk about with you because there's, as is always the case, there's way too much to talk about in the book and only a certain amount of time. Um, so we've had to whittle it down to three areas which I think are really important and I think are very

important to pug owners more so than anything else. But the one thing at the start of chapter five, you have this great quote which I did want to read out because I actually think it's, it's very prophetic. I hope that's the right word. The chapter is called what a Dog Wants, what a Dog Needs. And I just thought to myself, yeah, that's, that's food and pugs. But it says in order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semi human.

The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog. And that was said by a fellow called Edward Hogland Hoagland. And I, I think it's actually the. It that one quote epitomizes how, how we need to approach treating our dog, training our dog, living with, with our pugs these days. Yeah, look, I think, I think that we.

Gone are the days of, I believe anyway in, in my practice and just as a, as a behavior specialist, I think that gone are the days of, you know, where, where you are the boss and you are the alpha and you are the master and you do as I say. And I know that that's quite controversial because there are still people out there who do train that way and is still the

case. But if you have a look at exotic animal training and don't get me started on animals in captivity, that's a whole other podcast, that's a whole other discussion. But if you have a look at. Don't put me on my soapbox about that one. But exotic animal trainers, they, they spend all this time getting to know the animal that they're working with. And so I think that, you know, one of the things that's really important that I talk about a lot is getting to know your individual dog.

What does your individ dog need both as a species, as a breed and as an individual? Because the, one of the most beautiful things about being the guardian of a dog is that two way interspecies communication and relationship that can be developed. And with pugs, particularly, like, I know those of us who have pugs adore. I can hear yours in the background. Absolutely. Adore. Adore them. And they're almost, that's what I'm saying. There'S 30 minutes until dinner.

They, you know, they have this ability to almost seem human like. But we can also learn so much from our dogs in just the way that they are so present, the way that they just, you know, stop and smell the roses. Literally. I mean, sometimes they're not stopping to smell roses, they're stopping to smell other things. But, but that whole, let's just lie in the sun, let's just be, let's just enjoy our lives and, and snuggle on

the couch. And there are a whole, that's a whole load of things that we can really learn from our dogs on, on how to be present in our own lives. So I think that the most beautiful kind of relationship that we can have with our dogs is one that actually goes two ways. Where we teach them how to listen to us as humans, but then we learn how to listen to them as canines. And it's, it's something that I

try and educate guardians on. Just not just pug guardians, not just pug parents, but also other dog parents. I know with, you know, those other dog parents. But you know, it's something that I think can be so incredibly magical if you are willing to listen. So what is it?

What is, I suppose, force free training. And how is that different from the way that you and I of 20 years ago growing up with our dogs would have learned? Okay, so force free training is. It used to be called positive reinforcement training. I think there's, there's a misnomer. Yeah. Misconception about what force free training is because people sort of often go, but you can't not use force. You know, isn't putting the dog on the lead Being forceful and yeah,

it's a, it's an interesting concept. So force free training is about using techniques that don't involve pain, don't involve force, and don't involve fear. So putting a dog on a lead, to me, to me, putting a dog on a lead does not. There's no force, no pain, and no fear there. If you start using corrections, however, and you start using that lead to pop the collar or to, you know, to kind of jerk the dog to give them corrections, that. And I do too. So that,

that changes things. That changes things. So the way that equipment is used, ideally the lead is just meant to connect you to the dog for safety. It's not meant to be used as a training tool. It's meant to keep them safe. So force free training used to be called positive reinforcement training. It's all about rewarding and reinforcing the dog for behavior that you like so that you can start to teach the dog the

behavior that's desirable. Because, let's face it, we have enough trouble communicating with our own species. That lives with a member of the opposite sex knows we have enough trouble communicating with our own species. And here we are attempting to communicate with another species. Dogs are incredible at being able to work out what it is we're going on about, because half the time we don't even know. And they're so amazing at being able to work it out. But at the end of the day,

we are still communicating with another species. And so it's much easier for them to work out what you do do want than to try and work out all of the other stuff that you don't want. Again, we don't even know what we want. So the more that you focus on the behavior that you do want, and we're talking again, if we want to get nerdy and sciency, you know, because I. Please, I do like the nerdy

science. I'm a bit of a nerd as well. But if, if we're looking at the nerdy sciency stuff, we're talking about neural pathways. So the more that the animal performs a particular behavior,

the stronger that neural pathway is going to be. It's exactly the same for us. The more that you perform a certain behavior, the more likely you're going to perform that behavior again. It's called a habit. So when we're changing habits, it's hard because you're creating new neural pathways. And the more that you use positive reinforcement in that, the easier that

becomes. So you know what we're attempting to do with Our dogs is through positive reinforcement training or force free training is to teach them the behavior that we do want as opposed to trying to suppress and punish and shut down the behavior that we don't want. Because that could be a whole range of things and a lot gets lost in translation. So yeah, that's the reason why I really like force free training because what it does, it actually calms the nervous system down enough for

the dog to be able to learn. As soon as you engage the nervous system, you know, if you. I remember back when I was at school, you know, like a really long time ago. Yeah, yeah. Short time ago. Short time, little while ago. You know, it was back in the day. So the cane had. Oh God, I'm going to give away my age. Oh yeah, I was going to say no, no, I went to Catholic schools. Yes, so did I. The cane had just been phased out when I was at school. Right. Had just been phased out. So the thing

that used to keep kids in line was the threat of punishment, of pain. The pain. Right, the threat of punishment. It used to keep kids in line, it used to keep kids behaved. I'm using inverted, I know nobody can see my rabbit ear inverted comments here. But compliance doesn't necessarily mean learning is taking place. Compliance doesn't. Just because you have a well behaved child doesn't mean they're happy. Just because you have a well behaved child doesn't

mean that they're well adjusted. In fact, lots of kids were very, very shut down during that time. You know, we had kids of the 70s and the 80s. We're all in therapy now because we were shut down. So but I mean, we, you know, dogs are a little bit the same. If you want to optimize learning and this is what positive parenting is all about. This is if you want to optimize learning with your dog. Because let's talk about dogs specifically. We need to not have the nervous system

engaged. And the thing about, the thing about punishment. And again, this, this, this opens a can of worms. A can of worms. Because there's lots of people who don't agree with me on this one. But this is my personal and professional opinion and I've have been doing it for a while, so it must work. But you know, as soon as you engage the nervous system, you shut down learning because you start to function from a different part of your brain. If you kick in the nervous system, if you

engage the fight or flight response. Again, nerdy, nerdy talk. If you engage the fight or flight response, the part of the brain that's involved in that is the hind brain, the limbic system. Your amygdala starts kicking in to keep you safe. That is not where learning takes place. Learning takes place in the front of the brain, the frontal lobe, the part of the brain that's involved in rational thinking, problem solving, that shuts down as soon as you engage the fight or flight response.

So you know, when we're looking at training our dogs, we need to use techniques that are going to keep that frontal lobe activated and functioning. And as soon as you stress them out, as soon as you start to use techniques that cause fear, you shut that down. So this is the reason, very long winded answer to why I really like using force free positive reinforcement

training. And it's because I read in your book, which is something I didn't know was one of the things that I did learn was that you should play with your dog after training to help them retain what they've just learned, which I thought was, I just thought 10 treats would

get, would reinforce that habit. And we're talking, we're talking, we're talking about pugs, right? So we, because pugs are so, as a general rule are so food motivated. There's, you know, they will look at a, some of them look at a toy and go, you're kidding me, right? Can we just have more chicken? So that is a, that is a bit of a thing that if you play with your dog, they do retain the information for a lot longer, right? Pugs.

You know, I, I've had people that have said to me, you're a trainer, why do you have a pug? And I'm like, because you want. What is wrong with you? What do you mean why do I have a pug? Oh, well, you know, don't trainers have border collies and German shepherds and Labradors? And I'm like, some do. I don't because quite frankly, I find pugs really easy to train because they're so food motivated.

And I did, when I was doing my Karen Pryor Academy qualification, we had to do this 10 part behavior change and my beautiful girl Kelly, who passed away at the beginning of January. Yeah. A couple of months ago. She actually, she's on the front cover of my book. She's one of the, one of my, one of my three babies that are three grumble. Yep. She came with me down to Melbourne to do that part of my qualification. We had to do a 10 part behavior chain and it had to all be done using force

free methods. And as part of the qualification firstly, you had to use cues that were very, very minimal. You weren't allowed to repeat the cue. So the cue had to be either whispered and said only once, all given a visual cue that was really, really minimal. So we then had to. You couldn't chain the behaviors together. You had to teach the individual behaviors. They then

pulled out a part of the chain that you had to perform. They then picked four random behaviors and put them together in a separate chain that you had to perform. And you had to get over 90% to pass. And she did better than the border collie. She had a backpack full of lollies. You didn't have a treat bag. You had a backpack. Well, you know, she was

pretty. She was pretty spectacular. She was a pretty smart punk. So I think that, you know, there's a lot to be said and look, I can always tell when I look at a human and dog team what methods they've used to train their dog. I can always tell. And when I see people who have used aversive methods or balance methods, I can see there is a. There's disengagement,

there's fear, there's uncertainty, there's shutdown because the dog's worried, am I going to get reinforced for this or am I going to get punished? And I'm not really sure. Yes, I'm not really sure what's going to happen. So there's, you know, there's, there can be hesitancy, there can be over arousal, there can be all sorts of other things. And what I find with dogs who've been trained using positive methods, there's.

There's such an incredible, incredible connection that goes on. There's almost like this trust, this safety. They are so open and receptive to learning. They actually enjoy the learning process itself. So, yeah, it's, it's so interesting to watch. And again, like I said, not everybody agrees with me. And that's totally fine. If you, if you don't agree with me, that's not a problem. Find a trainer that aligns with your belief. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Find somebody that aligns with, with you

and your values and what you, what you believe. But I just know that this works really well for me. I adore what I do. I love seeing that, that connection and that, you know, when, when the human and the dog understand each other, I just, there's something magical that just feeling. I love to watch it. I love to, I love to bear witness to it, and I love to just see that, you know, the dog go, oh, I, I finally get what you're going on about. And the human goes oh my God, you finally get spake.

So it's just, yeah, it's one of the, it's one of my most favorite parts of, of what I do is just watching that and I see it

time and time and time again through the use of force free methods. No, that's what. And I will actually point out because it was funny. I, I first become aware of you in your book webinar through Pet Professionals Guild Australia last year and I asked the question then and I knew that I actually wrote down my note to make sure I asked again this time for the, the listeners. Now I always say pet parent, but you say pet guardian which I think is a great reminder.

But can you explain why you say pet guardian as opposed to pet parent in your book? Look, I think I, it's funny because the term porent I heard about from you when you asked the question. I do like saying poor type things like pawson and important. Yes, well the little summaries of my chapters are the important bits which is why you would have liked those. But look, I, I like the term guardian and, and I sometimes say parent or mum or dad. I like the term guardian because I think that, you know,

to me dogs are sentient beings. We don't own them. We are, it is our responsibility to take care of them, to provide for them, to look after them. And that to me is what a guardian does. So you know, for, for their highest good and you know, it's our, with, with great power comes great responsibility. Thanks Spider man for that, for that little quote. But fine.

But I think that it's, you know, whether you use the, the term poor and parent, dad, guardian, I think it gives the, the connotations of love, support and care. I don't, I don't like. And I don't use terms like alpha, pack leader, boss. You know, I, I think that that to me gives imagery and connotations of something completely different. I don't live in a path, I live in a family.

It's just that my family is made up of human and canine members. But we, but we live in a family group or, or, or a grumble like, you know. Yes, we live in a grumble. It's just that some grumble members and some of our members are canine. Yes. So yeah, it's, its terminology is the same with. I don't use the word command, I use the term cue for the same reason. I'm not issuing a command to my dog, I'm asking a Question and saying, would you like to

come and work with me? Let's work together. It's more animal led. It's more dog led. It's more respectful. I believe it's more respectful. If I want a dog to work with me, I want to. I want to say to them, do you want to? And 99% of the time they go, yes, because working with you is fun. And, you know, and that's. And that's what I want. And so that's what I teach the pet

parent or guardian how to do that as well. And that's when that magic starts to happen, is when they turn to their dog and say, hey, would you like to come and work with me? And the dog goes, actually, I would. And before you know it, there's this beautiful interaction and relationship that's starting. No, I completely agree. We. We do pug rescue events and where we do a lot of markets and those sort of things.

And I have to admit, sort of a lot of the reading I've done over the last 12 to 18 months, especially around anxiety with Kenji, was, was actually relearning how to approach a dog regardless of what they were or anything else like that. So as much as my knees protest whenever we do a fitting at a. An event, I now get down on my hands and knees and do the semblance of a human version of a play bow and then sort of put a little treat out. And I'm amazed at the

difference. Like, some, some dogs just. Just don't have a bar of it. And I back off. And it's amazing. It's. The parents are the ones saying, no, no, no, just get in there, it's fine. I'm like, no, they're telling me that they're not happy. This is. I said, just let them have a little bit of time to have a sniff around. I said, I'm a stranger. I stink of pug. For all we know, your dog hates pugs. I don't know why they would.

But let's. I don't know why they would either. That just seems me. My stepdaughter has dachshunds. You can imagine family reunions. You're in that corner and you're in that corner. Look, I think that it's just. It's so interesting that, that, that asking permission. That asking permission,

if, for want of a better word, that asking for, would you like to interact with me? And I think one of the things that. And I can't even remember if I put this in the book or not, but when we start to, if we continue to push dogs, if we continue to go, no, no, you have to deal with it. No, no, you have to, you have to cope with this. No, no, you have. I'm not listening to what you're trying to tell me. The thing about what dogs do is they give off very, very clear

signals. And if we're not listening to the signals, they, they escalate and they get louder. And if we're still not listening to those signals, they get even louder still. And not listening to those signals, they get louder still. And if we still don't listen, they bite. Right? And then people go, they bit out

of nowhere. And you sort of go, you really, you didn't listen to the, the things they were yelling at you with their body language, with their, their wailer, their, their yawning, their shake off, their lip licking, all of the signs of stress they were giving you. Not to mention that their, the turn away and the fact that you didn't even listen to all of those

signs and all of the things that they were saying. How else are they supposed to tell you that they're not happy except to growl, snap, and then bite? So the more that we start to listen and we don't, we don't get to the point where our dogs have to go, you know what, human, you're not listening. So I'm going to do my version of punching you in the face. The less dog bites we have, the less issues that we have with reactivity, the less, the less of all

of that stuff if we just stop to listen now. I agree, and we're kind of jumping ahead to where I wanted to get, but I think it's actually a great segue into it. Talking about, sort of. Initially I said this was. Part of, this was my own self indulgence of wanting to talk about hug anxiety. But part of that chapter, which was the stuff you were just talking about, but the other one is the trigger escalation. Trigger stacking. I got the. Yes, trigger stacking,

which was fantastic. Yeah. Never heard of it before, but it made sense. So let's talk about trigger stacking because I think there are a truckload of porrints out there that have pugs that are either reactionary or have anxiety, and I think they would actually learn a lot. Yep, Yep. Okay. So the concept of trigger stacking

is, it's, it's a relatively easy concept, I guess, because we have been talking about, you know, some sciency nerdy stuff. So it's, it's a relatively easy concept to get your head around, and that is that if we have dogs with anxiety, there will be certain things that will trigger that anxiety. So if we have, let's say, and probably a good example, a better example than pugs. I know. I can't believe there's a better example than pugs. I know. But let's, but let's talk about a border

collie, right? Well, no, let's not talk. Let's talk kelpie. We've already discussed a border collie. Let's talk kelpie, right? So let's talk about a herding breed who is real. A lot of those, those guys can be very motivated and over aroused by moving things. So things with wheels, right? So I've done work before with a dog who would snap at bikes, snap at skateboards, snap at prams, snap at cars. So anything that had wheels that went by, it would trigger him to be reactive.

And so every single one of those is considered to be a trigger. So we can talk about collectively, wheels in general are a trigger. But a individual bike is a trigger. An individual skateboard is a trigger. Another individual bike is a trigger. So we've just had three triggers. And so what happens when we look at doing desensitization work is those triggers stack one on top of another on top of another. So you might have a dog who, as you're doing desensitization work, one bite goes by and he's

fine. A second bite goes by and he's fine. The third one tips him over the edge because those three together have pushed him over threshold. And so we, what we find with trigger stacking is that people often go, I don't understand. He was fine with the first two bites and he lost his brain at the third one. And that's because those two first ones, he wasn't fine. Those arousal levels were building. They just hadn't pushed him over threshold

yet. And so when we have these triggers that stack one on top of the other. And I've had situations where I've been doing work with dogs and we're desensitizing them to other dogs and we're in a park and they see one dog and then they see another dog, and then another dog comes from around the other side. And then all of a sudden there's a fourth dog and they're going, oh, too much, too much, too much. So I could cope with one, I could cope with two, but by the time I got to the fourth,

I'm, I'm, I'm over threshold and I Can't cope anymore. So that's what trigger stacking is. It's where we've got individual triggers that are stacking one on top of the other, on top of the other, and then it just pushes the dog over threshold. And when we're talking being over threshold, we're talking about a nervous system who is now in overdrive. That frontal lobe has shut down. We're in fight or flight.

We're lunging, we're growling, we're running away. We're doing, you know, things that make all us humans really embarrassed but make. The dog feel safe. Well, basically, what the dog. Or trying to. Yeah, they're trying to say, you need to all go away, give me space, because I'm not coping with you all. And so what looks like really aggressive behavior is a dog just having a panic attack, essentially, and a nervous system that is dysregulated and, and the dog not. Not having the coping

skills to be able to. To deal with it. So it's. Yeah, the trigger, the trigger stacking thing can be tricky during a desensitization protocol, especially if you haven't set things up, you know, to keep things under threshold. But it's, It's a great example so that when people say, I just had, you know, it just come out of nowhere. And I've. I've done it previously with past pugs, where I've just sort of gone, where the

hell did that come from? And it was because obviously I hadn't thought about the. The four or five things that have happened prior to that. We had one rescue a couple of years ago, who we were fostering, and she was on her last, last warning with the council. Who would have thought there was a pug out there that would sink her teeth in whenever she was. She was so aggressive. Her last. And the worst part was the family tried to tell us that they had no idea how she managed to learn that she

was nine years old. And, And I really wish I had learned about trigger stacking before we started fostering her because she was fine in the house, but we couldn't, we couldn't figure out what the trigger was that tipped her over the edge. They just, just. It was so rare. A felt like it was random and it was different things each time. Like it was sort of one time it would be this random guy who come up and I'm guessing smelt like something that she wasn't

happy with. And then the next time it would be something that she would see off in the distance. And so it was Just. And so sort of I was talking after I'd read this bit, I actually went out to my partner, Andrew, and said, God, I wish we'd known about this with. With this dog. Because unfortunately, ended up being. We were. We were with some friends who were also foster carers, and they'd been around similar aggressive dogs. And she sunk her teeth into that mate, the male carer.

And so unfortunately, we. Then the council just said. Because we had to report it. Yeah, the council said, sorry, it's. And I. I hate, to this day, I hate the fact that we had to do something to her, when in reality, it really wasn't her fault. It was what she had grown up with that had. That had put her into that situation where she felt like she had no other choice but to bite whenever she felt threatened. Because that was all we could really think that

that was one of her tricks. She was feeling threatened in some way. We couldn't figure out what it was, but that was how she communicated it. And. And for a lot of dogs, biting works. And so that's why that.

And if they've been punished for the warnings up until the bite, they just drop them and just go straight to bite, which is why growling is such a gift, because growling is a warning. You don't want to be punishing that. You want to be going, okay, I get the message. Let me back off. Because if you back off at the growl, they don't have to escalate to bite. But, you know, when it. When we talk about trigger stacking, this happens for us, too, right?

You know? Absolutely. You wake up in the morning, you're running late, you get caught in traffic. You, you know, you realize you've got a stain on your shirt. I talk about this in the book, actually. And then you walk in, and then the boss has a go at you because you're late, and then someone has a go at you because you missed the meeting. You know, like, you. You're nervous.

You know, like your nervous system by that point is tapped, and you end up lashing out at somebody or, you know, I think in the book, they deserve it. Yeah. Yeah. I think in the book, I use the example of, you know, then your husband rings and. And says that you're not supportive or tells you to, you know, keep it together while you're crying on the phone, and that just asks. And, you know, by the end of the day, you've taken the baseball bat

to somebody's car. Like, you know, I mean, that's. That's so extreme. And I was making it up. But if we. I have ptsd, believe me, I've got free, I've got friends who I, I completely agree with you. Yeah, we, we deal with trigger stacking as well. And anybody who goes talks about the straw that broke the camel's back, that's trigger stacking. That's just, that's just what we call it. That's what we say, oh, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. That was the final trigger

that ended up. Somebody just kind of lost their biscuits. So it's. It, it happens with our dogs, too. And for that, for that beautiful dog that you were talking about, chances are it may not have been one thing that, you know, the reason why there was no predictability is because there were multiple triggers stacking one on top of the other, and it was just one thing that broke the camel's back and it just happened to be different things each time.

So, you know, trigger stacking can be such an important part of understanding what's going on for dogs with anxiety because, you know, we also look at arousal threat, what's called an arousal threshold. We are getting nerdy today. But arousal threshold, you know, when we go, I've had it up to here, we're talking about our own arousal threshold. And for some dogs, that's really low. For some humans, it's really low as well. For some, for some dogs, they're incredibly patient and they,

you know, will take it and take it and take it until they. The tail pulls and the pokes and the hugs by the kids. Yeah, yeah. So some, Every, every dog has a different level of arousal threshold as well. And dogs with anxiety generally have a lower arousal threshold. It doesn't take much to trigger them. It doesn't take much to get a reaction. It doesn't take many, too many triggers before they're. They're having a meltdown

or a panic attack or some kind of reactivity. So it's, it's the challenge that happens when working with anxiety. And I do a lot of work with dogs with anxiety. There's a lot of dogs with anxiety out there, which is really quite sad. But there's a lot of people. There's a lot of people out there with anxiety too. So, yeah, it's. But which actually segues into something

that I said I did want to talk about if we had time. So hopefully I'm not cutting into our other topic that I do want to get to part what they're finding from the research that I have read. And I think you do address it in your book as well. Some of the reasons that a dog develops anxiety, there are genetic issues as well as social issues, but it's actually if they're not socialized properly from a young age. And the importance. Yeah,

that can be. That can be a really, really big factor. And unfortunately, what we all went through five years. We had five years five years ago. Don't help me. I know where we were all kept separate. Our dogs were all kept separate as well. So I'm seeing a lot of dogs. I'm actually talking at a summit in. I don't think that summit's too far away about COVID dogs and about the fact that

the dogs. A lot of dogs that I'm seeing at the moment who have got anxiety issues and reactivity issues around other dogs, they're in that four to five year age bracket. A lot of them are. And it's because they didn't get the opportunity to socialize when they were puppies. And when we're talking about socialization, we're not just talking about getting them to meet every single dog that they see, every single person, every single child. That's. That's overwhelm.

And we're kicking in the nervous system again. So it's about the right kind of dogs, the right kind of people taking them to the right kind of places and doing that socialization gradually. I mean, I. I told you off air about our new puppy, Floyd, who's a dog pug. He's divine. But when we first got him, the first thing that I did for the first couple of weeks was slowly started to introduce him to a lot of the things he was going to encounter as he got

older. And some of those things were. Were other dogs. Some of them were other people, other places. But we did it slowly and gradually and made it fun so that he actually wanted to go and interact with lots of different things. So the right kind of socialization is important. And the. You were talking about socialization at vets, like, because I've always had rescue pugs, so they kind of already come with their baggage. And I'm. I'm amazed at the.

The different behaviors for every pug that we've had or we've fostered. Like, fat dog loved the vet to the point where we would walk through the door and he would run down the passageway to where the back was, where he'd had his teeth cleaned. And I'm like, where are you going? And the girls would be like, oh, my God, Lewis is here. And I'm like,

Now I know why you don't love mum anymore. So. But it was incredible because he'd had such a shocking seven years previous but he's, he'd obviously had really good experiences at the vet, whereas Charles absolutely hated the vet no matter what. And it's just. And in your book you talk about like take, take them in and just sit them in the front. And I

went, I never thought to actually do that. I do that for all of our rescues with playgroup because I think it is important that they get to play with other like minded individuals, I. E. Your face looks exactly like my face. But even we've done, we do a similar thing. I get there 10 minutes before everybody else gets there. They have a sniff around the area and we only stay for five minutes and then it's see you later guys,

we've got to go back. Kenji hates my guts for it because he loves playgroup. So for some of our fosters, I've actually had to take the foster home and then come back and bring Kenji back so he can have his run around. So. But it's the things we do for our pugs. It's just. But the. Because in your book you've got this socialization checklist if I remember correctly. Yeah. So you know, worth buying the book just for that alone.

Regardless of whether you have a foster, you adopt a rescue or you get a puppy, I think that it's never too late to give it a go. Although I think that probably an older pug probably needs a little bit more care. Look, I think the beauty of, the beauty of pugs, again, because they're so food motivated, if, if they've got people giving out food, they're gonna be like, this place is great. So just getting them to go in unless they've had a really traumatic experience. But the socialization to the

vet clinic is something that's really easy to do. And it's literally you go in, you get the vets and the vet nurses to fawn all over them and give them treats. You pop them on scales and you walk back out. Because if you think about it, when they have to go to the vet is to be prodded and poked and have things shoved up their bottom and like it's not. And not only that, it's not a pleasant experience, not really,

but also they, there's. Because dogs communicate in a variety of different ways, but they also smell. So they can smell the stress going on and the fear from the other animals. And so the vet clinic, when they walk in, they can Smell. And when I say they can smell fear, they can't necessarily smell the emotion. But what happens when you, whether it's us or whether it's another dog, there's biochemical

changes that occur in your body when you're afraid. So you release adrenaline and cortisol and you'll have biochemical changes that occur and they can smell those. So when people go, dogs can smell fear, they can't smell the emotion, they can smell the biochemical changes that happen. So when they walk into a vet clinic, that's what they can smell. So if you start pairing that together with treats and with good stuff happening, you're actually

creating a positive association. And dogs are creating, creating associations, good and bad all the time. So we just don't always have control over what those associations are. So if you take them in for a visit and we did this with Floyd, he went to the vet, they gave him treats. He sat up on the table, they gave him more treats. They listened to his heart, they gave him more treats, they gave him more treats. Then they gave him

more treats. Then they put him on the floor and gave him more treats. Then they played with him, they gave him some treats and he did not want to leave. And so that's what you want. Like the next time he went in, he went happy, happy place. But when we eventually had to do like, he ended up having emergency surgery on his eye yesterday. I know, it's terrible. We won't talk about that. Rosie did it last year, the eight thousand dollar day. Yeah. So he's,

he's like, yeah, yeah, well, whatever. I'm in the happy place. It's, it's all good and it's kind of took it in his stride. So it's, it's definitely worth doing. And I have to tell you, I'm going to let you in and listeners going to let you in on a secret that not everybody knows. The vets and vet nurses love it when you come in for a social visit. They love it. They, especially with puppies,

they just, it, it makes their day. So when people go, oh, I don't want to go in, and I know they're busy and I just don't want to. They love it. Just do it, do it, do it, do it. Because it's, it's their favorite part of the day when puppies. And if they don't like it, go find another vet. Exactly. So if they have a problem, they might go somewhere else. But they, yeah, absolutely. They, they just, I've spoken to vet nurses and they're just like. We love it when puppies come in for it,

just because. So it helps them. It helps them to do what they've got to do with less stress. But also, who doesn't love a puppy coming to visit them at work? And a pug puppy. Oh, yeah. All those wrinkles, that's just like all that energy. Oh, yes, that's just the bomb. I love it. Absolutely love it. Right, well, we're going to circle back to one of the other

topics we. Because we were going to do it in a different sequence, but I love it when we get onto a topic that actually has lots of conversation. So one of your chapters, which was actually the. You do a webinar and it's something along the lines of, is my dog normal or is it weird? Yeah.

And God knows I've had these conversations with other pug, especially new pug owners. They're just sort of like, my pug does that. Is that really weird? Probably not for your pug. That's just pug and pugs are weird and that's why we love them. Yeah, I know. Like, why did. Why did you adopt this pug if you weren't expecting weird stuff like eye boogers and sneezing in the face and rubbing or Rosie's favorite, rubbing her nose on the corner of every room of the house. Yeah, normal. All of that

is normal if you have a pug. All of it. All of it. So, yes. So the chapter about Is my dog or is it just weird or just plain weird? Yes, that was. That was the title of the chapter. And the reason why I wrote that chapter was because I get asked a lot about, is this normal behavior? Is this what my dog is doing? Is that normal? And a lot of the time the answer is yes. So my dog wants to sniff on walks. Is that normal? Yes, my dog does zoomies and looks

like they're possessed. Is that normal? Yes. My dog likes to sniff each other, you know, another dog's butt. Is that normal? Yes. So there's lots of. My dog loves to eat poo. Is that normal? Yes. So there's lots of stuff that is very normal for dogs in general that are just dog things. Eating their own vomit is normal. Licking their own bits is normal. There's so much that dogs do that is very, very normal for a dog. And then we've got

what's normal for a pug. And all of the things that you describe, the sneezing in the face, the rubbing their nose fold on all the carrots, you know, the waking up in the morning with their bum in your face. That's normal. There's, there's lots, you know, them, them actually sitting on your face. That's normal. There's lots that pugs do that are what a lot of non pug people would consider very weird. And we just go normal. Yeah, it's, it's.

That was a fun chapter to write actually, because I, I did have to have a think about what are all the questions that I get asked about whether this is normal. And I realized there was an entire chapter. So it was, it was a bit fun. It was a bit of fun. The thing that I, the thing that I love about it is because obviously I work with pug rescue. So we have a lot of people who, some people have had pugs

before, so they kind of know what to expect. Even though, and I have to admit I fell prey to this early on when we adopted Winston Charles. So I, I've wanted a pug ever since Milo and Otis was released back in the odies. And, and my naivete at the time was that there would be no rescue pugs out there because who would give up their pug? So I, I went to a breeder, the only breeder in Far North Queensland where I was posted at the time. And her, her two

bitches didn't take. So, and then a few weeks later I get a phone call saying we've got a little 7 year old black pug and if we can't find someone to adopt him, the family are going to put him down. And in the back of my mind I'm like, there's got to be something really wrong with this pug. There's like really wrong with this pug for somebody to want to give up their pug to find out that no, no, no, they had children and so their pug was no longer their child.

And unfortunately little fat dog didn't like not being the only child anymore, understandably. And so I just went, okay, he's already toilet trained tick. Like to me that was a big tick. He had a lot of, he had a lot of challenges both both mentally and physically, but he was, he was such a great pug. But then I got so used to having this little Zen pug who was no more than two feet away from me and did, did all pugs stuff that I'd read in a book

about. But then a couple of years later we adopted Winston and Charles. And Winston was our black punk, Charles was our fawn. And for the first six months I kept looking at Winston Going, why are you such a devil? Like completely different person. And I ended up having to just slap myself and say, because he's not fat dog.

Like he just won't. And I think it's, and a lot of people, I think you have it in your book where you say people go, I had this great dog when I was 15 and it was some bloody big dog and I'm now 80, but I want, I want another Rottweiler. And I go, is that really, really good idea?

Yeah, look, I think that it's, it's a really good point that while we can talk about breeds and, and that we have certain behaviors that are consistent amongst the breed, we also have to talk about, you know, there's, there's normal dog behavior, there's normal breed specific behavior and then there's individual behavior for the individual dog and what is normal for them. So I, I know of somebody who had a pug who used to go and kill all the chickens. That is not what I would consider to be

normal. That's not normal in inverted commas. Pug behavior. But for this dog, it was normal for her. For some reason she had something inside of her that went, I'm going to pretend I'm a Jack Russell and kill stuff. So that meant that that dog, she really likes chicken. Yeah. That dog had to be managed in a certain way. So it's, it's when people talk about is this normal? We need to look at, is it normal for dog, the species

dog, is it normal for that particular breed? Is it normal for that particular dog? And if the behavior is, if that, if that's a, you know, yes across the

board, then it's normal. If there is a no, that's not normal for. And sometimes we see this with, with medical issues when we see sudden changes in behavior. Yeah, sudden changes in behavior. All of a sudden my 16 week old puppy is very quiet and well behaved. That's not normal for a 16 adolescent. No. For a 16 week old puppy to be very calm and quiet, all of a sudden, that's not normal. That is time to go to the vet to make sure that

everything is okay. I always knew, I do always know when my pugs are not well because they stop eating. That's not normal for them. It's often not normal for a lot of pugs. But then I also know of the odd pug that's not food motivated and I think, oh my God, what's wrong with you? But that's just normal for them. So, you know, when we look at Normal versus abnormal behavior we have to look at, okay, is this normal for dog, is this normal for breed? Is this normal for the individual dog?

And that's all about knowing your breed, all about knowing your individual dog. And, and, and what dogs do in general. That is just normal dog behavior. So, and I don't like using the word normal. You know, like, I suppose the word normal has interesting connotations. What is normal? But yeah, I don't even know if average is the right word. Standard, standard behavior, predictable behavior, I don't know, there's no real correct word there

that seems to fit. But I think we get a little bit of a sense, especially those that are very connected to our pugs and our dogs in general. For any non pug person listening, if there are any of those. But what we start for those of us that are connected to our dogs, we start to get to know what is normal for them and what is, what is not. And when something starts to feel a little bit off, that's the time to go

and seek some professional help. Whether it's checking with your vet, whether it's contact, you know, somebody who specializes in, in dog behavior to, to kind of go, okay, I think something's a little amiss here. But yeah, learning, learning about dogs in general breeds, you know, what is normal. It always fascinates me when people go, is this behavior normal? And I'm like, yeah, you're a dog. My dog barks. Is that normal? Yes, they're a dog. That's what happens.

They're talking to you. And I have to admit, it was after, I can't remember, it was your book or someone else's, but you both the books basically said the same thing around barking. It's their version of talking. And when that kind of clicked in my mind, Kenji's a bit of a barker. So if, if he sees something that's 2km away in any direction from the front door,

he's barking. And it used to kind of annoy me. Like I get the dogs bark and all that sort of stuff, but when I actually sort of switch my thinking to, it's just Kenji telling me, mom, there's a bird 2km away or a plane or, or whatever else it was. And I think you actually, maybe it was one of your posts that I read you say thank you. And so I actually started doing that with Kenji. I'm sure there are people that walk past our house when the front door is open, it's just the

screen bit. They hear Kenji going, and I'm going Thank you, Kenji. That's really nice. I am raving mad. Does he stop, though? He. He kind of does. Like, he stops and turns around and looks at me and then he gives his little Kenji look. And then. And then he just goes back and says, I'm just gonna give it another go. Like. And if he's. If he's really agitated about something, Rosie will then raise her royal butt out of bed and then she will go to the front door and. And join

in for. For good measure. It's sort of. It's the one blessing about having Buster, who's blind and deaf. Like, he just sits there. You can see him. He's just sort of like, what's going on? I can feel that everybody's moved, but I'm getting cold in bed and I'm like, oh, thank God it's not a three bug three pug ensemble. Yeah, you would have heard before. He's barking because it's after dinner time. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's just like, I've got my pug watch on and it's time for food.

Yeah, yeah, see? Oh, see, on command. Yeah, there you go. See, that's normal for pugs. Absolutely. And the barking thing, I mean, we. We are a very verbal species as well. So as humans, we are. We are incredibly verbal. Some of us more than others. Some of us like to talk a little more than others. So we, you know, we do kind of go, oh, well, maybe they're barking because they're talking and maybe they are. I mean, they're vocalizing

and communicating. Whether that is. That is their attempt at imitating us, because dogs do imitate. So whether that's their. Their attempt at imitating us, it could be. It's. It's part of their self expression. And dogs don't know. Oh, the thing that I see two streets up that I don't need to worry about that. As far as they don't understand the whole concept of fences or that across the road isn't theirs to protect. They don't. They don't get that concept.

So, yeah, that's another one of those. Is this normal for my dog to bark when somebody across the road pulls up? Yes, because they can't see it and hear it. They don't realize it doesn't. They don't have to worry about that. So we. Yeah, interesting. Dogs are so interesting.

They are, absolutely. And especially pugs. They're like, they're next level. I don't care what anyone says. There's no pug Shaming in my house or on any of my socials. No, no, no, Everybody. I get clients that say sometimes they'll take a photo of something they've seen in the shop. Like somebody took a photo of a cushion in a Kmart the other day and went, sarah, I'm sure that you've got one of these. And I hadn't actually. It was one of my collection that I didn't have. And I was like,

oh, no, I haven't got that one. And I had another client who said, I was in an antique store and I saw these book pug bookends and she said, I thought of you. So I bought them. So she's left them with my mum for me to pick up the next time I'm downstairs. So it's just. Yeah, it's. People know that I'm a bit Pug. Tragic, I call it. Tragic. So crazy pug lady. Yeah, yeah. It's just part of who I am.

I actually. I have a statue when the puppies can't come to an event with me because it's too long and sort of Rosie and Buster at 12. So I have to take into account that their energy levels just don't survive more than about four hours of adoration. They sit, they don't actually move, you know, humans. Actually, on the weekend we had. We had a Mother's Day dog event and the event was four hours long. And towards the end, the puppies were so tired, we were trying to get them

to sit in the end of the. The puppy cage area that was covered so we could say, no, no, no, leave the puppies. Somebody would walk past, look at them. Rosie and Kenji would actually get up and walk to the end and bark at them, like, oi, why haven't you come and patted me? Like, I've just gone, I cannot win, I cannot win. But when I don't have them, I have this statue

that my dad brought. I think it's actually meant to be like a garden gnome type thing, but the pug is so lifelike, I've put a bow tie on it and it sits at the front and people and dogs go past and do a double take. And it's crazy how lifelike it is. And I went, best present the old man ever gave me. But his nickname, his name is Bogues. After the beer. Yeah, nice. Because. Because he said, I paid for it, I get to name him. And I'm like, really? And you have a go at me for my crazy pup.

I'm wondering if that statue is similar to the one that we had that we had on our. At our house in Ballino. We had it on the veranda. And every time I would look at it, I was like, one of the dogs is out on the corner of your eye. It is crazy. So now I have to admit, it's sort of when an event gets a little bit slow, I just happily stand back and I. People as they go past and they do that double take and all I say is, that's the best behaved pug in all of my grumble.

Yep. Yeah. And kids come up and they sort of touch it and I'm like, it's okay. He's not gonna bite. It's terrible. I know I'm. I'm being entertained at other people's expense, but best, best pug statue I own. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show. How do we find you and how do we find your book, most importantly. Okay, so you

can find me multiple ways. So my website is the canineperspective.com au I'm also on socials, so either via the canine perspective on Facebook, on Instagram, on TikTok and under Sarah Rutten on LinkedIn. I know it's a full time job just keeping up with this. I do have an online free online community which is just a group of dog tragic people who love to get together and talk about their dogs and love dogs spam. So we do lots of fun activities in the community. The book can be

purchased on Amazon and also via my website. You can get signed personalized copies via my website. So that's how you can get that. And the. You can get a Kindle version as well. That's via Amazon. The audiobook version is coming out this year. Nice. Will also be awesome. I meant I was like, I'm gonna do that at the beginning of the year. And then I blinked and we're already in May, so. And I'm not sure when this is. Gonna be aired, so in the next two weeks, so. Oh, there you

go. Okay, we'll be in. So the audiobook will be available at some point in 2025 so that you'll be able to listen to all of. The fun stories or training your pug. Right, Exactly. You'll be able to have a giggle along with me reading my book or a cry when we get to the last chapter. Because I cried when I wrote. I cried when I wrote the last chapter. So I can imagine. And you've sort of. Since then you've. Both Harvey and Cali have gone. So it's yes.

Double, double tears. Yeah. So they. They featured in the book. They featured throughout the book. So there will be an additional little disclaimer on my audiobook about the fact that they are no longer with us and. And a little tribute to them, which I will attempt to do without bawling my eyes out. So. And the next book that will be coming out will be. I haven't quite decided what that one will be about,

but Floyd will definitely feature in the next one. So maybe you need to do like a Pug Focus training book. Oh, potentially. I was going to call it Raising Floyd and just do a, like, expose on. On the fun that is raising a puppy who's decided to go and get an eye ulcer at 16 weeks. Yep. Crazy things that teenage pugs do. Oh, my goodness. I mean, after we had it, we were interviewed on Channel seven a week after he. He came into my. Our lives. So here we are.

It was the first time that he was on lead and there's a massive little angel in his face and there he was walking along on lead towards the camera as if he'd done it forever. And I'm like, you're you. Oh, he's. You're never going to get a candid shot of him again because now that he knows what a camera looks like, like, my loss. They just. When you try, like,

one point, I was trying to get a photo of Rosie. She'd snuck onto Andrew's lap, he'd fallen asleep on the couch and I was sneaking on hands, like, hands and knees around the corner of the lounge room to try and get a photo of the two of them snoring. Yeah. And of course she saw me and so a little head went up and I'm like. And then of course she woke up Andrew and he's like, what are you doing? And I went, it doesn't matter now I can get the photos.

No. You guys were looking so cute and now you've ruined it. Yep, it's absolutely ruined it. He's a sort of line, don't take photos of me while I'm sleeping. And I'm like, it's not creepy at. All and it wasn't of you. Anyway. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Sarah. All of all of your details will be in the show notes so people can find. Find you. And, and most importantly, the book. I cannot recommend it

enough. I really did enjoy reading it, so hopefully more people can and obviously watch Floyd's transition. Yes. Floyd is plastered all over my socials. So, yeah, somebody said to me, you need to start up an Instagram page just for him. And I was like in my copious amounts of spare time, yeah, sure. But he does feature quite a fair bit on my socials. So for those of you looking for some Pug Puppy spam. Yes, go and check out my social. Well, I will see

you online, absolutely. Thanks Donna. It's been awesome. Thank you. Don't you just love a chat that teaches us something in a fun way with a person who just gets you as a crazy pug porridge? That is definitely how I felt talking to Sarah about her work, her book book and her bug life. Now if you haven't heard of Sarah's book, the Canine Perspective using force free methods to unleash your dog's potential and you want to get a copy, pop into the show notes and follow the link to her

website. If you've read the book, you're a member of her online Facebook community or have worked with Sarah and her grumble, then we'd love for you to share your experiences and what you've learned. So pop over to our Facebook group, the Pug Life show podcast and tell us all about it now. If you're not a member of the Facebook group, I invite you to join now. And whilst you're there, let us know what you think of the podcast. We love getting feedback and it helps make

sure that we do better for you every season. Plus, if you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast in your favorite podcast host so you don't miss out on the next episode. And while you're at it, leave us a review. It only takes a couple of seconds to leave us a five star review of you and it goes a long way to helping other pug porans find us. Rosie, Kenji and I hope that you will join us again soon, but until then, have a paw some week. And humans, be generous with the snackies.