Multiple people said, you know what I can't get over is that I don't even ask questions like these with the people already in my life, like with my friends and family, my own age. Sometimes there's this limiting belief where we think we can't go deeper, when in fact you can, and a lot of times people are more receptive to that than you think.
Today we have Cassily Kilheim on the show. Cassily is a leading expert in social health, Drawing from over a decade of studying, sharing, and applying the science of human connection. She elevates the idea of social health as a writer and speaker, and helps individuals, communities, and organizations become more socially healthy. Cassily leads the nonprofit Social Health Labs, whose programs have connected and inspired thousands of people across the
US and globe since launching in twenty twenty. In this episode, we discussed Cassily's latest book, The Art and Science of Connection, Why Social Health is the Missing key to living longer, healthier, and happier. Cassily argues that physical and mental health are incomplete without social health and makes a persuasive case for why social health should be prioritized a lot more in
our society than currently is. We discuss why cultivating meaningful relationships is as vital as exercise, nutrition, and sleep, and the ways for us all to be more socially healthy. So let's get into it. I bring you Cassily Kill Them, Cassily Kill Them. Well, congratulations on your new book, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Thank you so much, Scott. I'm truly honored to be talking to you today.
It's good to see you. It's great to see you. It's been many years. It's been many years.
Had blue hair the last time I saw you, Carson.
I'm sur I've been through many phases in the past five six years. Blue blonde. This is more my natural and the hair cover right now. It looks good.
It looks good.
Well, thank you, thank you well. Absolutely delightful to chat with you again and about your new book, which is very important in this time that we're living in. But I gotta ask, why are you so over loneliness?
That's a good good spot to start. Well, so let me start by saying I have worked on loneliness for many years, and it's truly an issue that's very important at this time in our history. Loneliness is very widespread.
Many people feel disconnected. There are very worrisome trends. You know, friendship is in decline, the number of friends that people have, but also the amount of time that people spend with their friends has gone down, you know, the extent to which people belong to communities and clubs and groups that
they're involved in, and just experiences of disconnection. There are studies showing that people go weeks at a time without talking to a single family member or friend, and that people don't feel like they have anyone who knows them well at.
A deeper time, consider that a good week.
Well, so we'll get into that about what's the right Yeah, okay, so we'll come back to that for sure. But having the option to be able to talk to friends and family you want to is really vital. And so loneliness is a huge problem, and last year the US Surgeon General declared it as a public health priority here in the US. The World Health Organization launched a Commission on Social Connection, recognizing that loneliness is a public health issue. So it's a topic I really care about and I've
worked on it for years. I give talks, I run programs related to addressing loneliness. I advise organizations in the space, and it's something I can care about and will continue to care about. The reason I say I'm over loneliness in the book, which is a bit provocative, is because I think it's time to shift the conversation and broaden the lens of how we're really thinking about how helping
people live more meaningfully connected lives. For one thing, a lot of people really underestimate the importance of our relationships for our health. So there are studies showing that people don't even recognize that relational factors, you know, whether or not we feel connected, that that predicts our longevity. So there's this sense that not enough people realize this is about health. There's also the fact that loneliness is just
one signal of what I refer to as social health. Right, So, in the same way with physical health, if you're not obese, that doesn't mean that you're necessarily physically healthy. There are other metrics that matter than just your weight, Right. You also need to get quality sleep and eat healthy foods. Right. If you're skinny, but you're not eating quality foods that are nutritious and fuel you, that's not being fully physically healthy.
So a lot of people who don't necessarily identify as feeling lonely, still there are opportunities for them to strengthen their social muscles and connect in other meaningful ways. Maybe you, you know, feel connected to friends and family, but you don't feel like you belong in the workplace, or you don't have a sense of community locally where you live, So that there are these other ways that we can
help improve people's social health. And so I'm very passionate about shifting the conversation and helping us look at the broader picture that loneliness is one piece of social health, and what I mean by that is that, you know, our relationships determine our health as much as anything else. And so in the same way that we talk about physical and mental health, we need to talk about social health.
And that lens can be really empowering and help us think about new opportunities to support people if we move away from just focusing on the negative toward towards some of the positive.
I'm very positive psychology of you, it's very.
Positive psychology of me. Yes. So, as you know, we've both spent time at the University of Pennsylvania, at the Positive Psychology Center, and that had a huge influence on the way that I think about this. And also, you know, a lot of feedback that I get from organizations, you know, when they run surveys with their community members where their users asking how lonely they are, it creates what I hear is that it pushes people away. Right Sometimes that
actually leaves people feeling worse. Whereas if we shift the conversation and focus on more of an asset lens and talk about social health or connection or community and start thinking about the strengths that we can build in people start thinking about the opportunities for connection. Perhaps they're two sides of the same coin, but as we saw with the Positive Psychology movement, it can help open up these new possibilities for how we're approaching the conversation, how we're
actually supporting people to live better lives. So when I sam over loneliness, really what I mean is that I think it's time now, given how much attention there is to this issue, and also the fact that loneliness rates aren't necessarily getting better, it's time to move upstream to look at this bigger picture and think about how we can all strengthen our social health and create the conditions for social health in society.
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of Corey Key's approach to mental health continuum, saying that languishing is not exactly the opposite of mental health. If you're not languishing, you're not necessarily flourishing exactly. So Yeah, No, it's very a very very very interesting approach, which is consistent with a lot of other research. Very cool. So, tell our audience a little bit about you, about your background, How did you become one of the leaders in the social
health space. Yeah, introduce yourself to my audience.
I love Scott's audience. Honored to do.
I want to know more about you as a human ensure.
So, I have a vivid memory of being on a playground as a little kid at my elementary school, observing my friends and other peers and watching how they were interacting with each other and who was left out and
who was in the heart of it. And from that very very young age, I can remember just being fascinated by people and trying to understand how I fit in with other people and how others were interacting amongst themselves, and trying to make sense of the social world around me, and as I got oh older, you know, I navigated first of all, recognizing that I was an introvert and trying to figure out how do you survive and thrive as someone who needs a balance of socializing and solitude
and can't always be engaging with people and actually values alone time, and trying to navigate that in school, in the workplace, life in general. I also experience some conflict within my family, within groups around me, and certainly saw a lot of that on the news and in the world, and was always very interested in how do we help people connect across divides, how do we foster more empathy and compassion and forgiveness so that we can overcome the
challenges relationally that we all experience and the conflict. And then also I've moved around a lot of times. I've lived in three countries and I think twelve cities and towns now, So every single time that I moved to a new place, I had to start fresh, make new friends, build new community, while also staying connected to loved ones
far away. And so in all these ways, I've kind of personally been exploring my own social health and trying to understand what it means for me to be socially healthy and how to optimize that, And so I really turned to the research and speaking of positive psychology, I mean that was a turning point for me, spending time at you pen and starting to come across the research literature on social connection and kindness and compassion and all
these ideas of how we could connect more meaningfully. It was the most exciting thing to come across that research, and all of my work since then has been an expiration of how do we actually apply those research insights in our own lives? Right? How do we bridge what's in the academic research with what it means to go
about our days? And so through various ways professionally, I've been trying to bridge that, and then now most recently with this book, this is really the culmination of over a decade of exploring this theme and trying to take the research insights and make them practical and also leverage from stories and experiences around us for how we can each approach our social lives so that we can of healthier.
I love that. And you have a degree from Harvard, right, I.
Do, yes, the Masters in Public Health. Yeah, So I studied I guess I should mention that in that part. I also in twenty nineteen do the masters at the school Harvard School of Public Health focused on solutions for loneliness and how we can create a more meaningfully connected world really through the lens of public health, so thinking about not just empowering us as individuals, but also how do we create an environment where social health can more naturally arise?
Right?
What do we need to do in policy, How do we need to design our technology, what do we need to be teaching in schools, How do we design our cities. I spent a lot of time looking at the research on what in the built environment helps people foster connection. So really, through all these different lenses, how do we actually create a culture where we can be socially healthy more easily? Given that so many people are experiencing loneliness and disconnection in different ways.
Right now, Absolutely, it strikes me that that one of the reasons why there's this loneliness is like I think everyone kind of feels like they're weird. They're the weird one, you know, Like they're like, where do I belong? I think there's a real belonging issue. Is that is that part of the work you kind of that you've looked into is kind of this the sense of like, where do I fit in in this in the social fabric of this universe? Yeah, I know, I know I deal with that.
So I do too, absolutely, And I think you're probably right that everyone does to some extent. You know, we're feeling connected, Feeling like we belong and like we matter is so essential and core. It's a fundamental human need that we all seek for survival purposes, but also in order to thrive and feel fulfilled and happy. And we need reassurance, right, We seek we want to know that yeah, we're good. I care about you, I see you, and
so I think that's an important part of it. But there's there are many factors that are contributing to the fact that people feel so disconnected. Right, That's one of them. There are a lot of factors in our modern culture. Right. Technology is one piece that comes up a lot in social media and the ways in which that's rewiring how we connect and inhibiting us in some ways and helping
us in others. There's the trends, like a lot of people move around more frequently, there's higher rates of transience, there's higher rates of living alone, so not being embedded in your family or in the community that you grew up with, and going out and being independent, which I'm guilty of. Right I've moved away from I live away from family right now. I've moved for work many times
rather than moving for family and for community. And so there are many different trends going on that are coalescing to mean that it's just it feels hard to connect right now and to feel like we do belong.
But and yet when you said that you feel like I feel too, I felt a greater sense of connection to you. So maybe more people need to express how they feel to each other and maybe realize that they're not the only one who thinks they're weird.
Absolutely, and that's why a lot of the efforts to destigmatize loneliness are so important, because it turns out that every single one of us feels lonely at some point in our lives. And that's a normal human experience, and it's actually a healthy human experience.
Right.
So, just like our bodies tell us when we're hungry or we're thirsty, our bodies and brains telling us that we're lonely is our bodies way of saying, hey, you need to connect, and that's a natural human signal, and being able to talk about that and open up honestly one another is important. There's also so much research, as you know, showing that vulnerability helps bring us closer together.
So when I confide in you or you can fighte in me, that engenders trust, That engenders likability, right, so we're more likely to get along. So ironically talking about loneliness or other fears and social anxieties that we have can help us connect more meaningfully and actually help us overcome that.
Yeah, and yeah, for sure, like research shows secret sharing is a great way to bond with someone as well as gossiping, So we won't do either right now on the Psychology podcast.
No gossiping, no way.
Maybe over coffee, but maybe over coffee later we'll do the secret sharing gossiping. Yeah. I'd love to hear your multi dimensional conceptualization of the concept of social health because you have a very unique you have your own sort of way of conceptualizing it and the main components of it. What are the parameters of it, you know, the boundary conditions, all that good stuff.
So this was a term that I came across in the research that was first defined by a scholar named Robert D. Russel back in the early nineteen seventies. And when I read this paper, it was such a light bulb moment for me because it unified a lot of the themes that I was seeing in the research. So, right now, if you dig into the data, there's social connection, there's social cohesion, social capital, social connectedness, social networks. It goes on and on, social support. There's so many different
ways that we're tapping into our social lives. But what are they all adding up to, right? What is the value of all of that? All of those tie into this broader theme of social health, which is that they matter because connection is how we throw And so I think the language of social health is really powerful because one it underscores the health significance of our relationships, right, And I mentioned earlier that research shows people underestimate that,
So that's really important. In the same way that the language of mental health helps us take our emotions seriously, the language of social health can help us take our relationships more seriously. And so the way I like to think about this is that if you think of your overall health and well being you as an individual person. Think of it like a Greek temple, right, and a Greek temple has different columns that are supporting the structure overall.
There's a physical column, there's a mental column, there's a social column. There could be other columns like spiritual dimensions or environmental dimensions, right. But my aim is to really elevate this social pillar because what I saw when I came across that paper by Russell was that there was very little information about that, and it's social health isn't talked about in the same way that physical and mental health are a regular part of our conversations today. It's
really missing from sort of the public discourse. And even on Wikipedia there's over seven million articles, not one of them is dedicated to social health.
So the part of me you should create one, Well.
Yeah, someone needs to, for sure. But isn't that interesting that now, all these years later, there isn't even a Wikipedia page about this, So it's really just not a term. And I see this all the time in groups I talk to or articles I write, where people are like, oh, this social health thing, that's really interesting. And so it's so important to elevate this because it's part of your overall health and well being. So if physical health is about your body and mental health is about your mind,
social health is about your relationships. And by seeing these pillars as vital and supporting each other and strengthening your overall health temple, that's going to inform the actions that you take to be healthy. So, yes, you need to exercise and get a good night's sleep and maybe go to therapy or practice meditation or things like that to be physically and mentally strong. But you can't be fully healthy if you're not also cultivating close relationships and cultivating
a sense of community. Those are vital health actions as well. And to thrive as humans and to be healthy and live a long time, that's an essential component.
Yeah, I'm sure that there's no one size fits all approach, you know, Like one of in the media kit that was sent to me, one of the questions is what is the right amount and type of connection? I feel fulfilled and REPELP. But that can't be the right question, right, Like introverts might have a different optimal than extroverts, right, Like, how do you even go about answering such a question? Since, yeah, well.
That's exactly the point is that there is no one right amount and type of connection for you. That's exactly the point. And so and in the same way that you and I might not need to eat the same number of calories in a given day, right, we each have different numbers that are right for us and our health behaviors. And so in the book, I explore these four styles.
That I described as chapter is it? Oh fine, I love individual differences research. I really like that level.
Yes, well, it's so important because you know, a lot of times there are different guidelines for how to be healthy, walk ten thousand steps a day, get eight hours of sleep at night, things like that, and those are helpful because they're starting points and they can kind of anchor
us as we explore our own individual health needs. But there is no one right number when it comes to connection, and we can have starting points, and I do give them in the book, but ultimately it's about exploring what's meaning to you. So the four social health styles that I describe are based on the amount and type of connection that is more fulfilling for you or feels more comfortable for you. So one, the first style is called a butterfly. So this is an idea we're all kind
of familiar with, right, a social butterfly. So this is someone who likes a lot of interaction and really enjoys kind of more casual connection, someone who's the life of a party, who really puts other people at ease. That's
a butterfly. The second idea is, and just to build on, that's if you think about butterflies in nature, right, they're kind of fluttering around from flower to flower, pollinating and drinking nectar in return, so there's this beautiful exchange, and so that's kind of the idea of a social butterfly. The second style is a wallflower. So again a term
we're sort of familiar with wallflowers in nature. They're sort of unassuming plan that grow against walls or in cracks, but they often actually have really powerful medicinal properties, and in ancient times we're used for medicine, so maybe we kind of don't give them the attention they deserve. Wallflowers, you know, in tend toward having less frequent interaction and more casual connection. That's sort of their sweet spot and
what their personality more naturally gravitates toward. The third style is a firefly. So this is someone who likes, again, infrequent interaction, but deep connection. So this is me. I love long periods of alone time, but when I'm with my friends and family, I want to get to the heart of the matter and move past chitchat. That's what brings me alive, right. I love that, I love connecting with my loved ones, but also I need periods of solitude in order to recharge. So that's a firefly. And
then the final fourth style is called an evergreen. So this is someone who likes a lot of interaction in a deep way. So someone who's constantly in communication with their very close friends and family and that really lights them up. Just like an evergreen in nature is a plant that's lush and green all year round, right, whereas a firefly glows brightly in synchrony with other fireflies and
then retreats into the night sky and disappears. So these different concepts are meant to help align you with what is the right amount of and type of connection for you and invite people to reflect. I mean, actually, I partnered with The New York Times to do a ten question quiz that helps people figure out their social health style, which was a lot of fun so there's that's a quiz that everyone can go take and then learn more in the book.
I was going to say, it'd be very interesting to see how these map onto the Big five personality traits consolutely. Then, yeah, what are some barriers that you see to being socially healthy?
Sure? So one of the biggest ones is that we all feel busy, right. People are busy, caught up in our day to day in doing the work that we need to do, and in taking care of our families and just trying to make ends meet. There's a sense of modern life feeling really busy, where people just don't have the time to do the things that they want to do. That's kind of the sense the lot of
us feel. And sometimes connection in our relationships can be the first thing to fall to the wayside, right, the last thing that we prioritize, because all of these other things are urgent. And I'm still guilty of this even as someone who studies this. I mean recently I realized that my husband and I hadn't seen our friends in several months, who literally live five minutes away from us.
You know, I think take people for granted totally.
We can take people for granted, and not stay in touch as frequently as we all want. It's very easy for that to happen, right. It's oftentimes our social health is not a priority in the way that work is. For example, we spend so much time working, which many of us love, I love I love my job, and we have to do it to pay our bills as well.
But if we're not also making time to have the enriching relationships that fuel us, then you know that that's definitely one of the barriers to being socially healthy.
What about antisocial people, people with antisocial personality disorder, I don't feel like they're very inclusive in your book.
Yeah, tell me more about that. How how could we from that?
How? Look, I'm just I can't. That's a cheat. Like what about people that hate people?
Well, it's funny you say that. So on the New York Times quiz when they posted on Instagram, I saw this comment where someone said, you need to add a fifth option. That's a cicada who you know does goes retreats for thirteen years and then comes out every now and then to kind of make some noise and then yeah, it does away again. So I think that there's something to that. Maybe there's a fifth style there, not wanting to be around people at all, but we all need some amount of connection.
So most most humans, for sure, they are the operations, the extreme outliers. Yeah.
Yeah, although it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen the show Alone. Have you ever watched that? It's a survival show where people who are survivalists go out into nature by themselves and have to survive as long as they can alone. And I love the show because it's it's very interesting. But what's fascinating to me is that one of the top reasons people drop out and just quit the whole thing is not because they don't have
the survival skills they need. It's because they start to feel lonely and they miss their family and friends, and they say, what am I doing? What's what's the point so I can win some money? No, I'd much rather I'd much rather spend the next few months with with the people I care about.
So there's there doesn't even even in the extreme conditions. Yeah, well, you know, it's there's certainly a fundamental human drive there. What do you think about my distinction and transcend between the need for belonging and the need for intimacy. I feel like they're too are lumped together. Sometimes they're both part of the connection drive, but they can be pulled apart in various ways. I wonder what you thought of that.
You know, like, uh, it's possible to feel belonging to a group or organization but don't feel a relatedness at all, don't feel like in a sense of intimacy, you know, like like DEI programs are obsessively focused on belonging. But you know, there's more to life than just feeling like you belong there, you know, like, how much do people actually care about you as a human, as a whole human, not just one dement know you?
You know?
And so these are just some thoughts that I've had in my own work. What do you think of that?
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for bringing in that nuance. I think there can be value to both, right, It helps us to feel connected if we're part of a group where we feel like we belong. But to your point, it's so important and so valuable to have at least one person in your life who really knows who you are, loves you unconditionally, the good and the bad. That you can confide in.
Right.
I Mean, the way I think about it is that, and the research supports us, is that being socially healthy means having all different diverse ties that you can lean on.
Right.
So you have those really emotionally intimate relationships, hopefully at least one, right, and frankly one is wonderful if you have one person who really gets you and you have that emotional intimacy with that's.
A gift in this life.
And then expanding beyond that, you have all these other kinds of ties. You have more casual friends who you enjoy sharing experiences with or hanging out with on a Friday night. You have family, You have coworkers and the ongoing interaction that you get hopefully on a day to day basis with people you collaborate with. You have the groups that you belong to and hopefully a sense of belonging in some of those.
Right.
So it's about having these diverse different ties. And so many studies, in fact, there was a new one that I just saw yesterday that I haven't had a chance to read, but again that are showing that the more diverse are ties, the better off we are in terms of our well being. But also our health outcomes. So it's really important to diversify. And just like you know, if you get all of your emotional needs from your romantic partner, well what if you're fighting with your romantic partner,
where do you turn for support in that situation? We need to have different kinds of people who we can reach out to and show different parts of ourselves too.
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's why cheating is prominent. Yeah, so what what you're just going in there? Yeah, it is cheating it you're so positive, you're so positive. You gotta gotta throw in some of the truth about human nature a little bit. But anyway, what individuals can do. I really want to focus on the rest of this interview on really practical things that really brilliant stuff that you have in your in your book about that the things
that people can do. You have this for these four strategies to optimize social health, because you do for your social health is as like exercise, right, that's am I getting that right? Exactly? Your model that and so so you know, continuing in that metaphor like stretching, resting, tone and flexing that kind of like the rhythmic aspect of that stretching, resting, toning, and flexing. Can you kind of elaborate a little bit on those four?
Absolutely? Yes. So the analogy here is to think about how you strengthen your physical muscles, right. So, the first strategy to strengthen your social muscles is to stretch. So if you stretch your body, it's because you want to become more flexible. You want to stretch it out. If you stretch your social muscles, this is about wanting more connection, right, So, making new friends, seeking new communities to be part of expanding your social circle. That's how you stretch your social muscles.
The second strategy is to rest, So with physical exercise, it's actually really important to have rest days and rest time in between reps or in between workouts so that your body can recover right and actually integrate the exercise that you're doing. And in that same way, we can rest our social muscles and actually either connect less right, connect more with ourselves, take them alone time, or just sort of be content with the number of connections that
you have and double down on those. The third strategy is to tone. So if your tone your social muscles, your physical muscles. Rather, it's really about getting stronger, right, deepening deepening your muscles. Similarly with toning your social muscles, that's about deepening your relationships, right, fostering closer more emotional intimacy to your point. And then the final strategy is
to flex. So just like you flex your social muscles and you kind of show off the strong muscles you've built, you can flex your social muscles, which is really about sustaining your relationships in the long term and continually investing in them over time. So those are the four strategies, and then there are many many tips that I go into on how how we can think about doing that and what strategy is right for you at a given time.
Yeah, and people need to buy your book, so we're not going to give it all away, but you maybe give me one social fitness exercise that I can do today.
Sure, Yeah, So one very easy one I'll start with that is to go for connection first. So oftentimes we have, you know, we're driving in the car and you put on a podcast to listen to to, or you put on some music while you're driving in the car, or a meeting ends early and you have fifteen minutes where you're just kind of scrolling through headlines or scrolling through emails and not getting much done. The idea here is
to go for connection first. So rather than immediately putting on that podcast, or rather than immediately going on social media and scrolling mindlessly text or call a friend. Right, Calling a friend while you're driving in the car is such a simple thing, and it feels so good, and it's such an easy thing that we can each do. So rather than going for that thing you normally do, go for connection first, and then if they don't answer or it doesn't work out, great, put on that podcast.
But that's an easy thing that.
We can all do. Yeah, I mean, how can people connect more meaningfully with others? Like I think a lot of people on the autism spectrum struggle with a meaningful connection. And I mean, do you just have any advice for people who are really struggling to get past a superficial level with people?
Yeah, So that's a wonderful question. I think a lot of people feel that way, whether or not they're on the autism.
Spectrum, right for sure, for sure.
Yeah. And one approach that I describe in the book is to ask better questions. It's interesting I hosted an event some years ago where we brought together fifteen older adults and fifteen millennials and gen Z and we paired them up in intergenerational pairs and guided them through a series of questions to help them just have conversation across ages.
And there were very simple questions. And at the end of it, we sat around in the circle and reflected on the experience and multiple people said, you know what I can't get over is that I don't even ask questions like these with the people already in my life, like with my friends and family, my own age. Sometimes there's this limiting belief where we think we can't go deeper, when in fact you can, and a lot of times
people are more receptive to that than you think. And so sometimes it's just about asking a question that invites people to go deeper. And I'd love to know if you have questions you love to ask, Scott, especially from coaching, I think you probably have some good ones, But ones I love are things like who is someone who had a really big influence on you when you were growing up? Right? Or what's a risk you took that has really paid
off in your life? Or another one of my favorites, especially to start off kind of a meeting or a gathering is what's your rose, thorn, and bud right now? A rose is something positive that's going on in your life. A thorn is a challenge you're experiencing. A bud is something you're looking forward to. So like an easy way to check in, but still go beyond that surface level
of what did you do this weekend? So questions like that can just invite deeper conversation, and what we see is that people generally are more receptive to that than you might think.
These are some of my favorites. When did you last cry in front of another person? By yourself? What if anything is too serious to be joked about? If you were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone? Why haven't you told them? So? Those one of my favorites.
Ooh, those are good.
From Alene Aaron's research on the kinds of questions that really help form connections with others.
So do you use those when you're at a party or when you're having coffee with someone or the context in which you use them?
No, I don't know if the very any of the iron questions and uh, out of like a psychology study, but those those those are some of my favorite from that list of of like the scientifically like proven that signs backed questions to form connections. But for me, you know, it's so contextual, you know, with powerful coaching questions with clients, you know, you're when you're really in the moment with them, and you ask a lot of questions about like, you know,
what's beneath that, what's beneath that? You know? What's like why you know and what? You know? What what would what would happen if you got rid of that fear? You know, that's often a really big one for people. You know, it's just even contemplating what would I what could I become? You know, you know because I do self actualization coaching, So yeah, those are those are the kinds of powerful questions. But I've always been a fan of the alien uh the Arthur Aron studies, and I
do them with my class. Apparently the studies show that like they bring in strangers asking these questions and by the end they report they wanted much more likelyin chance, people report they wanted to like actually romantically date the other person. So you have to be careful with power comes responsibility with these questions.
Absolutely, and you know it doesn't have to be so kind of explicitly ask a deeper question. It could be as simple as tell me more about that that's really interesting and just being expressing curiosity and whatever it is that someone's already talking about that deeper conversation.
Social curiosity is a whole area of research.
Absolutely.
I did the Exploration drive and the Openness to experience.
Yeah, and Scott, one of my friends and collaborator, Scott shig Yoga, has a wonderful book called Seek where he talks about curiosity and how that's a force for connection as well.
I had to check out that book.
Yeah, I think you'd like it.
You strike me as someone who is very open to new experiences, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, social curiosity, I think that comes from your openness.
Well, and openness is a driver of connection. When you're open to new experiences and new people, who knows who you're going to meet?
Right?
And I talked earlier about how being socially healthy means having diverse different ties and that includes people of different ages, of people of different ethnicities, different beliefs, different cultures, and so when you're open to experiences and curious about other people's ways of living, that is diversifying the range of friendships that you're able to form, and so that can certainly be a powerful driver of connection.
You do have the section of your book where you talk about negative, the negative toll that sometimes talking to like, I know that people use the phase toxic people now a lot. They're like, oh, that person's talking about parent time. But but there are certainly in the in the language of high quality connections research, you know, some people feels like you're in a black hole when you're talking to them. It's a phrase that Jane Duddan used in one of her papers on and I think we can all relate
to that. You know, there are people. I hope you don't feel like you're in a black hole today, no podcast. Usually high quality connections are ones that are feel buoygnant, creative, spontaneous, playful, and they have certain characteristics. But what do you do in these kinds of situations where you're interacting with people that are really taking a negative toll in your social health? I thought, I thought that was a really important part of your book.
It is really important not all connection is good connection. And you said earlier I'm too positive but no positive, Well, okay, that was my reading it.
You're positive.
Well, yes, I'm definitely optimistic, but no, not all connection is good connection. And there are people who it's not healthy to be around, and it's not healthy to sustain relationships with, and sometimes at the extreme level, that means letting go of people from your life. And I think part of being socially healthy means recognizing when a relationship is not redeemable and when it's it's too negative and
taking more of a toll in the long run. Now, there's a lot of nuance here, right, because sometimes there are relationships where we just don't really get a get along. But it's fine. There are you know, it's it's a whole spectrum of how we're connecting with people. But I think recognizing when a relationship is negative too much, right, when the net is too negative, sometimes the socially healthy thing to do is to move on and let let that go and have boundaries and invest and double down
in the relationships that are nourishing, respectful kind. That's so important.
I completely agree. I completely agree. I'm really glad you brought that up. And I think that's that's a social ill to be able to kind of be aware, Like if you're a romantic relationship and you're like, no, this is really not good social health, not good for my social health, you know, being able to recognize that, or relations with family members, relations with friends. Yeah, that seems like a really important skill in the social health toolkit.
Yeah, And I don't know if it's something you ever master, right, but it's about it's about being aware.
You know.
If there's one takeaway that I want everyone to have from this conversation from the book, it's that we need to be intentional about connection, just like we're intentional about what foods we eat hopefully or how much sleep we get or things like that. It's really important to pay attention to that, to reflect on how we're feeling, you know, are the interactions that we're having on a day to day basis, Do we actually feel meaningfully connected? Do we
feel more lonely? Are we having those needs met? And how can we serve others too? Writ how can we enhance the lives of the people around us through connecting with them? So really being intentional, that's that's the key point.
Yeah, I love your metaphor, you know, you can think about in the gym, you know, and and being able to kind of I like my favor My favorite one was the flexing of the social But I just texted my producer am I being too corny in the I needed to get his opinion on this. I feel like being maybe too cheeky. But anyway, I think you're wonderful.
You're such a great interviewer, Scott.
And yeah, thank you, Cassie. I'm feeling like I'm like, have I gone? Have I gone too far? In my She's so serious, and I feel like I'm being really weird.
But okay, oh my gosh, okay, but this is like a meta learning.
It is a meta learn.
It is. It is because I ask these questions of myself too. Every time I do a podcast, I get off and I think, oh my god, I came across.
Just well, I think you're doing great.
Well, I think you're doing great.
Okay, good, Okay, I'll take it.
But I want to take questions. I want to make a point here, which is so there are great studies showing that. For example, when you bring two strangers together and you have them talk for a few minutes and then you take them apart and the researchers ask each individually how much did you like the other person and how much do you think.
They liked you.
People significantly and consistently underestimate how much the other person liked them.
That's really important.
It's really important, Scott, I like you more than you think, and you probably like me more than I think.
It's hilarious.
We should have that mindset in our interactions because it's you know, for for people like you and me who are more introspective and perhaps you know, overly analytical about how we're coming across in interactions. It's just release some of that and we can all take confidence in knowing that you're doing great at other people probably like you more than you think.
I love that research finding so much. I want to just talk about, you know, just building up to society at a broader level, because it's also a really important part of your book, right, like how can we step up and like I'm really big and empowering others And it starts within you know, it starts with you. Like if everyone woke up inspired to empower others in their social health, like we would be a much better society. You know, if every individual decided they wanted to do that.
So so what can people do as individuals? And then you've any policy recommendations? M.
Yeah, yes, So this is a line I kind of straddle in the book where first and foremost it's meant to be kind of a toolkit that empowers you as an individual to take steps in your own life. But coming from public health, I'm also very passionate about how do we of those conditions. So focusing on the individual for a second, because that is where it starts. Each and every single one of us has the power to change the culture that we live in through simple gestures.
And if most of us start doing that, or even some of us start doing that, it begins to change the fabric. So smiling and waving at your neighbors when you pass them on the street or on the sidewalk, introducing yourself to a new person who just started at your company, right, being a little bit more friendly in your interaction with a barista or someone the cashier when you're checking out at the grocery store. Each of those
little touch points. First of all, the research, a lot of studies show that those little touch points matter and that actually they can boost our mood and make us feel more connected to our communities. So on one hand, there's that, but also it's about changing the social norms right, and each step that you take really counts, and that should be empowering to each of us that knowing that what you do matters. At the same time, there are these broader, kind of systemic changes that we need to
be making, and so you mentioned policy. There's a lot of really interesting things going on in that space. There is legislation proposed to start funding more solutions for loneliness and programs around connection. The US Surgeon General's advisory last year around loneliness as a public health priority, he made many recommendations for how we collectively, you know, kind of big we as a society can start changing our country, and we need it. People are so polarized here in
the US. But then other countries are doing this as well. You know, the UK and Japan both have ministers for loneliness. Again in the book, you know, you mentioned earlier that I'm sort of over loneliness. I think those should be ministers for social health and focus on the goal that we're moving toward rather than how it needs.
To appoint you then ami health.
And and so there's there's a lot of interesting momentum where this is being taken seriously at the federal and kind of global level, and that's really positive. And all of those those steps add up. You know, in healthcare now, there's a push toward social prescribing, where doctors are asking about how connected you feel and prescribing opportunities for engagement
in the community. Right. There's a whole innovation wave of technology innovators who are creating apps and different tools designed for more meaningful connection rather than just ad revenue. Right. And so you start to see that there's across sectors, at all these different levels, there is so much momentum and so much progress toward creating a more socially healthy culture. I'm very optimistic that going forward. Well, you say I'm too positive, but I know from my vantage you're not nice.
I see so many promising things underway that I think wonderful. Yeah, we have a lot to look forward to and reasons to be hopeful.
I go up your positivity. I love it. The world needs more of it. The world needs more of it right now. Trust me, there's so much cynicism in America right now and distrust of each other, and isn't that causing? Man? I wish everyone read your book, and I also wish that your book went everywhere in the education world. You know, I'm very deeply passionate about education, and I see so much potential when I was reading your book for teachers
to really instill these messages in children who. Of course, loneliness is big, but as you note, you know, there's a lot more to life than just not feeling lonely, and especially in childhood feeling and also there's more than belonging right, and so in childhood really being able to have what would it mean to have like social gyms? You know, you know, you have like regular gyms, but like physical fitness gyms, but if you had like social
fitness challenges. I don't know. Is that corny that's in the book?
That's there? I think, my god, which chapter is it? I literally talk about social fitness. It's happening, there's there, there are companies creating them as we speak. Yeah. Absolutely, But your point on schools, it's it's great. And there are wonderful nonprofits like Only seven Seconds. I serve on their scientific advisory board who that has a curriculum for schools to help teach kids and teenagers to connect more meaningfully beyond differences is another nonprofit that's that's working in
the space and has fantastic curriculum. So that's happening, making caring common at the Harvard School of Education also has phenomenal resources around teaching these skills and youth. So there there, These are happening, and we just need to spread it and proliferate it that much more so that it's really embedded in our DNA.
Yes, I love that. I love that. You know you're talking about we need to spread these inspiring examples, And I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, I just feel like the news is constantly hitting us with kind of the worst of humanity, and it is painting a bleak picture right the even the Surgeon General, you know, who I admire very much, and I have spoken to him recently actually about about about transcend We had a conversation about what is transcendence? Yes, what does he ask me?
What is transcendence? You know, how can we have So we talked about how we can have more of that and but but you know, he folks, you know loneliness, you know, and and and and and all the stats showing a bleak picture. So we need we need more casolic Kilms in this world who show, uh, just give give us hope, give us home, Come on, give us. It's tough out here as being human.
It is so tough being human, it really is.
You know.
Even the Surgeon General though last fall, he for the first time that I'd seen he said, just like physical and mental health, our social health is really important. So that was the first time I'd seen him use that term. And it is spreading right. More and more people are recognizing that health is not just physical and mental, it's also social. And the more that we recognize that and invest in culture where social health is in our DNA, the better off we will all be.
I love it. Well, I think we should end on that really great note. Well, I adore you, and I and I really am rooting for you. I'm sincerely rooting for you because I think that this is so important. And yeah, I wish you all the luck with the rest of your book tour. How I hope you can find the asfl introvert who has done book tours. Maybe I'll give you all wine I'll give you some tips
because it can get rough. It can get you know you're doing, like podcasts after podcast or a podcast, you know you really need to make sure you take care of yourself. Is what I'm saying. Make sure you take care of yourself.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm just grateful to be having conversations about this, and I really appreciate you having me on This is a pleasure.
It's a pleasure for me too.