W. Keith Campbell || The New Science of Narcissism

Campbell is a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia, as well as the author of The Narcissism Epidemic, When You Love a Man Who Loves Himself, and most recently, The New Science of Narcissism. He also has more than one hundred and twenty peer reviewed articles, and he lives in Athens, Georgia. Keith, so excited to talk to you today. Oh, it's fun to be here, Scott. Thanks for having me. We go, we go way back. I remember I was

writing an article for Psychology today. Do you remember that, like twelve years ago on? It has been a long time we've been kind of talking about these issues of narcissism and the good side and the bad side, and you know the challenges. It's been a long time. Yeah, I really appreciated your your insights on that article as running back then and then I've been blessed to be a colleague of yours now. But I want to just jump into this, this question of narcissm and what is it?

What is narcissy? I feel like everyone says if they don't like someone, they'll say, oh, that's person is such a narcissy. That's that's become the phrase for anyone you don't like. Yeah, well if they're successful and better lucky than you, yeah, they're narcissism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that's the risk. You know, it's sort of the sort of meta narcissism, as you use someone else's narcissism as

a defense against your own inadequacy. Yeah, it's a term that gets used a lot, and it is usually sort of pejored. But as you know, we think of narcissism like a personality, Like a lot of personality traits is being really trade offs. They have some good sides and some bad size depending on contexts and situation. But when we talk about narcissism in the field, we're talking about two different forms, the first being the individual different form

of grandiose narcissism. You know, this combination of a sense of entitlement and need for admiration and attention seeking and maybe some exhibitionism, but also some drive and charisma and real ambition that goes with it, kind of kind of like driven antagonism, energized antagonism. And then there's this other form of narcisism we talked about, which is the more vulnerable form, which has the entitlement. Yeah, there's a sense of entitlement and that's my favorite. You know, you think

you deserve special treatment, you think you're important. But at the same time there's some low self esteem and some insecurity that goes with that. So you have two different forms of narcissism. One that's driven and really more effective in the world but can do more damage because of that, and one that's more more depressive and a little more low self esteem, that's a little more hidden and doesn't do as much damage to people, but it's sadder and

does more damage to him or herself. Yeah. Thanks, there's these these emerging models of these three factor models and narcissism. That that our research as well as other research teams confirm that there's these three factors. So it seems like entitlement is a thread that runs through both forms of narcissism. Yeah, truly the center. So we sometimes say there's there's two two faces of narcissism, or two dimensions, this more grandiose form,

this more vulnerable form. But underneath those are three factors and sort of the key factor in both of them is this antagonism and you know, callousness, sense of entitlement, sense of superiority, sense of self importance. And then with that key feature, you either get this more agentic or driven extraversion. And we use the term agency to mean

like drive. So with the charisma and energy and ambition, and then with the more vulnerable form you get the more you know, neuroticism, so you get insecurity, low self esteem, fragile self esteem, and those three factors exist and they can exist together, so you can have people who are grandiose and vulnerable. You can have people who seem really really energized and self confident, but they also have some insecurity. So it gets more complicated. Yeah, I say to people,

if you really you want to be a narcisst. It's much better to be a grandiose narcissist than a vulnerable narcissist if your role is to be a narcissist. Yeah, absolutely, it's the vulnerable form of narcissism is really challenging because you have a lot of these fantasies or illusions of being successful or important, but you're not really equipped to succeed your low energy, you're in secure. I mean that's a hard that's a hard set of skills to be out there, go out there and beat the world with.

But if you're more grandiose and you're confident, you're full of yourself, I mean, those are great traits in the modern world to go out there and get noticed and get attention and make things happen. But you can just do that by being an extrovert, right, Like, what is the antagonism by you? Because we in our research, remember we parceled out the antagonism facet and we found that extraversion was really doing most of the positive prediction. Yeah,

I think that's really important. Is that boldness, that extraversion, that's what it's predicting a lot of what we think are the good thing with narcissism. So the number of connections on Facebook is largely driven by extraversion. The social likability that you have with narcissists initially is largely driven by extraversion. What you see with antagonism though, where things

like you make more money. So being antagonistic in hierarchical or state out of seeking situations can be beneficial, you know, riding up in leadership. But it's only one way to do it. There's multiple ways to succeed, and you can succeed based on extraversion and be a nice person, and dare I say one can succeed as an introvert as well, Absolutely say that. I mean there's lots Oh yeah, it shouldn't. Yeah, there's there's there's lots of ways to skin the success cat.

The more narcissistic way is more being grandiose and attentions seeking to bring people in. But you know, you can just do it with work ethic. You can just grind and be conscientious and keep your head down and really outperform people. So there's there's lots of ways to get ahead. Just that the narcissism is the more showmen technique. And also obviously not everyone wants to get ahead, they'd rather get along. Yeah, and that's a yeah. I love those

terms too, the old Karen horneye. But but a lot of that is that I know you're but a lot of its selected, and you're like, who wants to have this job? And like all the narcissists like we do. And then you get some other people like, yeah, I want to do some good in the world. I want it too. But whenever you're ever searching for people who want power, status or success, you're always getting a few more narcissists in your search. That's a great point. So

what is the narcissism recipe? I you know, it's it's kind of what we're talking about, I think, And I don't know if we're the same in this, but I think of personality traits as really being well described by sort of the Big five and the fastest I think the way I'm joking, I'm joking. I know you're a classicist, and I don't want to I'm joking. I'm kind of

it's kind of fun. I would use for yeah, not a not really for the for the research, but I like to think of these basic traits as like ingredients in a recipe. And we tend to use the Big Five sort of like you know use you know, carbon rates and protein and spices and stuff when we make food, and we can combine these an interesting way to make

different traits. And when you combine this, you know, this agentic or driven extraversion with this antagonism and willingness to manipulate people and knock them over to get your own ends, it's an interesting it's an interesting recipe for an interesting kind of person If it was somebody who was just mean but wasn't really extroverted, that's another kind of recipe. It's not as interesting, but it's another recipe, and it

really could be a recipe for narcissism. So I like to think of how we can mix these traits up to get different ingredient profiles. And that keeps me from thinking that somebody is narcissistic as somewhat completely different from

somebody who's got another personality profile. They're all similar. Yeah, that's a good point, and I think it's also probably important to point out that you know, within the Big five framework, you have aspects and then you have facets, and the two aspects of extroversion are assertiveness and enthusiasm, positive emotions. It seems like this grandest narcissism is more

tied to the agentic, assertative aspect of extroversion. Yeah. Absolutely, And I like, I really like breaking things down into aspects when you talk about narcissism, because this aspect is really key. The more sociability or positive emotionality is great, but it's not really a core feature of narcissism. It's it's really it's really a nice trait to have if you want people to like you and you want to be happy. It's the it's the number one the number

one predictor yeah, life satisfaction. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, okay, cool, Well as you could tell, we we we really can get nerdy here today. So this is this is good. I like this. You know, what are the primary goals and motives of narcissists? And I'm being a little bit ware of using the term narcissists because you're we're talking about a personality perspective. So those who score hard in

narcissm it's not sexy. It's not sexy, is it? Those who score above true standard deviation the mean on a narcissism personality questionnaire yeah. Yeah. To be clear, we're not talking about a personality disorder. We're using the term narcissists the same way you use the term like extrovert. It's it's a placeholder for what you just said, high on

the profile. You know, something that's really interesting about narcissism and as opposed to a lot of traits, is that it involves a lot of self regulation, meaning that people are a narcissistic involved have goals that reinforce their ego being forced self esteem or the positivity of themselves. We say self enhance. So when you look at somebody's narcissistic and you look at how they act, a lot of it is serving the master goal of making themselves look good,

have high standards, be important. So what are those goals specifically, And if you really boil down the literature, it's it's sex, status and stuff stuff, So narcissist stuff materialism, having a having a fancy car, having a fancy watch, having fancy clothes in the trophy house, I mean we so it's it's it's a it's a certain form of materialism. It's not being a hoarder. It's you know, it's collecting status goods.

And using status goods to self regulate. I mean, the industry is built around narcissistic status regulation via buying products, for sure, you know, and obviously you know, status is a big one, social standing, social status, leadership as one. But it can be popularity. It can be being a cool kid. Then have to be being a leader and and set. So Narsison predicts a lot of short term

mating and fidelity, what kind of things. But you can be interested in short term sex and not be a narcissist, right, you can do all these things and being not a narcissist. They tend to gravitate together. They tend to correlate. And when you start, you know, you look at a picture of Napoleon Bonaparte and he's on a horse and he looks awesome, and he's conquering the world, and he gets somebody to paint it at the same time, because just

conquering the world wasn't enough. He needed a picture of it. That's when you start, Ah, this stuff's all feeding together. You know, there's some narcissism here, but little bits and pieces don't have to be And even something like vanity could be used for something else. It could be used for signating, you know, social status, or maybe not just membership in a social group. Perhaps you know, I always dress well because it shows him a good number of society.

There could be different reasons for this thing, could be a uniform. So things are always more complicated than they seem. Well, that's a very profound statement, that's for you. I mean, it's not usual stuff, but that's just well, yeah, it is complicated because it's a multi dimensional construct. And at some point when you just talk about some of the facets in isolation of the others, you start to lose the narcissism aspect to it. I feel like, you know,

there is the core entitlement, then there's integment. But for instance, vanity people just like to look themselves when they pass the mirror. I think a lot of people probably score high in that and maybe don't necessarily score high in the others. Yeah, there's something that seem a little bit more tangential the vanity. The vanity questions that were almost like I like to look at myself in the mirror.

It's really it's not just checking yourself out, which can be neuroticism or just you know, just making sure you look presentable. It didn't have to be. You're supposed to look like they have a job. I mean, sorry, I walk, I walk into the barber and they're just like, hey, homeless, Jesus. You know. I'm like, I should have probably paid attention for a while. So there's a lot of reasons you

look in the mirror. But with narcissism, there's that enjoyment of it, with the grandiose narsium, there's enjoyment of looking in the mirror. And so vanity has been central to it. I guess since the myth of narcissist has fallen in love with his own reflection. But yeah, it's there, but it isn't it's not central to the com Well, people narcissistic do look better. They tend more to make more effort on the parents, They make more effort to make

their social media appearance look good. Yeah, it's there, it's there. Let's talk about gender differences for a second, because there's this cultural narrative that men are entitled bastards and and women are angels, perfect angels. Yeah, non overlapping distributions, yeah, yeahs. But yeah, but that's not what the science suggests. When you look at the nuance. There's more to the story, right,

Science never says that. No, with narcissism. You find a difference in grandiose narcissism where men are a little bit higher. And I think the correlation is about point three point twenty five. Maybe you've looked at this more recently, Scott. But it's not a D D point two nine h D two nine, but the R would be about point one. Fine, Yeah, okay, so I inflated that by an order of two. Is it so a D of about point but two nine, So that's a small effect. When you look at vulnerable narcissism,

I don't think you find much, nothing at all. Nothing nothing. Yeah. I was surprised. Actually I thought maybe females because because just because of neuroticism, there's a gender difference. Yeah, that would make sense too. It almost maybe the two poles are kind of pulling at each other and you equalized it. The guys are a little mot a little more antagonistic, and it equals out neurotic and kind of vulnerable nursomic balances.

Maybe because when you look at just psychological entitlement, it's a small benefit to men. But that D is about point two so these are is that right? Just got my am, I I just I mean, I did this paper and I can't even remember. It's very small. Well, the the the explotations slash entitlement facet in particular, that's the one that did show the D equal point two nine. That's that's the decals like the classic PES psychological entitlement scale. Okay, cool, Yeah,

this is other research other than that met analysis. Yeah, that's about point. But anyway, these effects are pretty small. There is something that they've talked about in the literature in the nineties about, you know, women should be more entitled, so they asked for raises more and that that might some difference in performance job salary. I don't know if that's true. But other than that, I don't see huge

differences on narcissism at the trade level. When you start looking at disorders, you know, when you start looking way at the continuum, you're going to find more men diagnosed as MPD than women by about three to one. But that's at the clinical level. Wow. Okay, Well that's really important information because we do know that things that may seem like small differences between males and females at the center of the distribution that the tales can actually have huge,

huge impact on society. The absolutely different at the both high and the tails. We know that the male variability hypothesis. You know, with other things traits like intelligence and other traits, you know there's greater variability. So it seems like maybe something somewhere is going on there with narcissism as well at the very very extreme. Yeah, and I don't know

if there's a variability difference. And that's literally some character analysisis on this, and I forget, but I don't know if there's a variability difference, and I should have looked at that. We just don't look at that as a matter of course, and a lot of these things, but there is a mean level difference and a small mean level difference. You know at the extremes that the tails

can become a much bigger difference. If you're looking at one percent of the population is having NPD narcissistic personality or two percent, you're at the very high end of the tails. Plus there might be some diagnostic bias to diagnose men more than women, So you can get big differences at extremes with small average differences on the other end of the spectrum. There's not more males at the very very low end of MPD, not that I've ever seen.

I mean, usually the trait they compare it to in the cluster b would be something like borderline and where you get a little bit of the reverse, which with much more women diagnosed than men, and that that's the personality disorder that's got a lot more neuroticism, a neuroticism and at the narcissism. Okay, wait, this is really interesting. There's this there's a lot of implications to what you're

just saying. So it seems like there may be gender difference at the tales in vulnerable narcissism that we are not showing up at the So maybe we need to look at a different level of analysis or difference. Yeah, or they're diagnosing vulnerable narcissism that's more extreme as borderline personality.

Just there. If you go back to the old psychoanalytics stuff and that you know, Kernberg and Cohat and the you know, structure of self idea, these objects, you know, even the object relations ideas, those two those two diagnoses MPD and BPD, borderline and narcissistic our scene is very related. They're so strong with Corterly, I mean, but the questionnaires you know are like zero point nine to zero or well with the vulnerable side, yeah, the vulnerable and borderline. Yeah,

it's so, it's so common. So anyway, I think that that's interesting. And maybe the gender differences are more pronounced for both grandiose and vulnerable and opposite directions at the extremes at the tails and anyway, I just I'm thinking of looking into that more now. Yeah, so what are the four triads? All those triads are really interesting. So this idea popped out by you know, Dell Paulus, And I don't know where this idea, like, I don't know where.

I amn't talking about where he came up with it, But this idea of a dark triad of personality traits. In this dark triad was a combination or collection of psychopathy, factor psychopathy, grandiose narcissism, and machiavelianism, which is this trait which has to do with manipulativeness and willingness to exploit people. And so those traits were called a dark triad because they all shared this trait of antagonism. So this core antagonism was the darkness, so antagonism becomes a dark triad.

So then later talking about saying some of these issues with borderline and vulnerable narcissism, you know, Josh and I were some of our students, looked at it, and it seems like you can make another triangle, which is more vulnerable dark triad, triad which has to do with the vulnerable narcissism factor to psychopathy, which is the more impulsive you know, it's this more impulsive form and vulnerable narcissism. So you can have that factor and then there's this

more energized group. You say, well, let's not go off there, let's not go off antagonism. Maybe let's think about let's think maybe about the extra version in grandiose of narcissism. What are traits that link to that? And there you start getting narcissism and fearless dominance and boldness and uh and hypomania kind of this low level mania and those traits kind of hold together. But they have that that extra version is kind of what drives them. And then

there's the light triad, which is what you did. What's that for yours? Man? It's basically the and I can't remember them because it's I thought it was like cont riding a whrse, which content is a sort of humanism. I mean, I don't dig this this stuff. I can't even get in my head. Yeah, but it's interesting because I think that's really important, because saying like, let's not look at just the you know, let's not say you know everything's dark or zero, but let's try to look

at different ways you can be bright. And they're different ways you can take this more. I guess you'd say low antagonism and bring it into these different traits. So I think that's pretty interesting idea. Yeah, say, these triads are all sort of arbitrary structures. You don't there's nothing magic about them, but they're they're useful to think about how trades work together. And a lot of the traits

that sound different can predict similar things. Now, you just mentioned three triads, which is appropriate because we're talking about triads. But what's the fourth one? Yours? The light triad. You've only mentioned three, the vulnerable, dark, energized, and dark triad. Classic. Oh,

the dark, the class and dark we should call that classic. Yeah, the classic, which now some psychologists have said is like there's a dark core that's even you know what, it's just antagonism think, yeah, I mean, you know, you can fight over what flavor antagonism it is. But darkness is kind of trade antagonism and different manifestations. Darkness is darkness. It's I almost view the D factors like the G factor of intelligence. You can get indifference of the indicator.

It was a Charles Spearman principle. You know, at almost a certain level, it doesn't matter what more indicators you include in the factor. Now leaden factor, it's still the same leading factor. I actually hadn't thought of that, but I like that way of thinking about it. Yeah, And I think this darkness just comes up and then people are like, well we've got a dark triad. Oh, we've

got a dark ted traad. Oh we've got a dark you know, and then we do all the Aristotelian solids and darkness and you know, these these these peatures are out there. But yeah, I think it's probably just the Big five. But what's interesting is how we take these, you know, these basic Big five traits and why what becomes important in our culture? What traits are we talking about? How do we what complex traits do we build and why don't we have a trade that describes somebody who's

open and antagonistic? Or do we do we need to what exactly, I don't know. Is there a trade for somebody who's you know, open and antagonistic do we have That's a really interesting point. You know, it's interesting you raise a point just about how, you know, we have general population level of correlations, but then we have those who buck the trends and they have unique configurations of the Big five. And I've always been fascinated with that.

For instance, there's been a construct recently research paper on the dark end path, so that's another example of that. Yeah, that's even farther. Yeah, yeah, you don't tend to see those go together. But they identified a certain leading class of the population that high antagonism but also high like empathy, like the ability to figure the ability right, you know,

like a cat well mouse kind of thing. Or I think they actually also have they feel it, I think they care, you know, I don't know, it's it seems paradoxical, but I think it's kind of related to this pathological altruism work I'm doing as well, research that I've published on recently showing that helping can come from a profoundly selfish place, you know, profoundly like ego boosting, ego boosting place,

right for sure. But if they're a dark EmPATH, doesn't that mean they like really care but they're still mean or what does that? Who is that person who is a dark EmPATH? It's a good it's a good question. I've been trying to wrap my head around that. That one that paper. I could send you the paper and see what you think. I wouldn't begin to say I have all the answers. I fully wrapped my head around it.

But it's it's an interesting they did identify that some people do kind of it's almost similar in the sense that my colleague Craig Newman and I found when we did deleat in class analysis. There there are certain people who do score high on the dark end the light

they're mixed. Oh, and that makes sense. You know. There's those characters and Joseph Campbell talked about this, these characters that were sort of psychopathic but altruistic and yeah, like James On being an example, or like the Harrison Ford and Star Wars. It's kind of like I look out for myself only, but you know, it comes down to it. I'm kind of going to do what's good for everyone.

Are these combination people that are really interesting characters, and they come up in literature probably because they're interesting, Yeah, just because things correlate. There's plenty of people that they don't. These trades don't go together, and sometimes there's super interesting people super interesting. I think those are the ones I like to hang out with. Weird. I love it. I think I'm like that, and like I'm like autistic and schizophrenic. So there you go, just to com about too much

and too dopamine. I got, I got, I got menia and detail oriented, you know, geekiness. So it's all anyway, I should say hypomania, because which is different. It's a different thing. It's a personality trait. But yeah, so I can relate to weird juxtapositions of traits, and I think that's what makes that makes as interesting as a species. Yeah, and I think a lot of creativity comes out of that combination of that sort of that tension between tracks, and it can be creative, but it's also always a

little more challenge. I mean, it'd be easiest to be kind of average, you know, you fit in the seat, you fit in the car, your personality fits. Yeah, it's easier. But if you're weird and you pull it off, it's sometimes more interesting of a ride. Yeah, we'll put Well, so let's go to relationships because this is a topic, relationships, narcissm. It's a topic you've been You're in a whole other book you know about. Uh, when was it when he when she loves a man who loves himself or something? Yeah,

you love a man who loves himself? Yeah, that is that what it's called. Yeah, yeah, it was. I love that title. It was a while ago. You know, it's really in grandiose narcissism. You know, it's amazing how much we've learned in the last decade or so about the trade. But yeah, NARCISSI. Well, I love that book. Though, I love that book. It's a big issue for relationships. I mean, arcissism is a problem. Yeah. Now I get way way more women emailing me saying my ex husband was a

narcissis bastard. Then I get men emailing me. Men don't seem to email me saying my wife was a narcissistic crazy person. Now why is that? Well, I'll tell you that at first, I say, there's an exception to that. I've run across or in marriages, in divorce, I've heard, you know, divorce cases where guys have just been thrashed. You know, So it does happen. But most of the

time I hear exactly what you do. It's women complaining about men primarily, and probably that's because men are a little more narcissistic, but also because of social roles we have. You know, men are out there, if they're working more, they're more driven, they get away with more stuff, they're causing more problems. Can be just links with male mating strategies. Men are much more likely to be unfaithful. But maybe that's even changing, Scott. You've probably looked at those data

more than I have. The infidelity data with men and women might be equalizing a little bit. Yeah, when you go down that rabbit hole of research, you you see a lot of things that you realize are so different than the narrative that's put forward in our society. Yeah, and then and then you almost don't want to even

talk about it. That's why I'm sorting to mention it, because I'm like, I just know there's something weird there that I don't you know, like there's a whole population of of women who've been identified who just love uh, seeking out married men for sex. They that that's the fetish. So there's always what do you do with that that? Well, I mean, I bet it with coil, it with narcissism.

You know, I bet if you I bet if you coil, if you found that latent class of people or whatever that would they would have a hire average narcissism score. But yeah, it's usually you know. And the other thing is, I don't know if this is true, but I just I get the sense when I was talking to people about relationships a lot is women were more dialed into the relational process and we're like, yeah, you know, I like my wife, it's good, and they were thinking about

it all the time. You know. That's just that was my sense writing the book. Had the same experience you did. But again, I've talked to plenty of men who've had terrible experiences with narcissistic walk. Yeah, maybe men aren't as open about it. It's not as in a way, it's it's almost more socially sanctioned. Yeah, to be a woman and say it's like cool to be a woman and say men are so narcissistic pigs. But you know, do you want to be that guy who goes on Twitter

and says women are narcissistic crazy people? Like? Do you want to be that guy? Yeah? And all my wife was doing was talking about how how attractive she was and how she wanted to go out and got attention and she was the cutest person town. And you think guys would care. They'd be like people will say, play a violin, play live, Yeah, exactly. So, Yeah, the narrative is probably a little harder too. It's a great research question.

If there's any young kids out there, young aspiring researchers looking into some of this, it's kind of I think it'd be a great it'd be a really great, great research topic. But I think, you know, just keep going back to the gender difference of research. The reality of the matter is that it's not as uh. Narism doesn't go across gender gender lines as much as we make it out to be, you know, and there's narcisism comes from lots of different stripes and sizes, and and also

lots of good people on both sides. No, but but I mean, I think, you know, think about it this way. When we've looked at a lot of the narcissism findings, we find men and women are different. Men are a little more narcissistic if you look at things that have to do with, you know, being less committed in relationships, and men are well, I shouldn't even say, are usually a little less you know, desired number of sex partners

men or more that that'll replicate. And so you find those gender differences, but you don't really find gender interactions, meaning narcissistic men are sort of just like narcissistic women, just a little more narcissistic and a little more into infidelity, but they're kind of they kind of work the same. Narcissism, at least from from the work we've looked at in those samples, seems to work pretty similarly for men and women.

Now you found a study, a finding that a long time ago, which I wonder if it still replicates, but you find that in relationships there's a point, like a two year or nine month point. You know, I remember a graph where all the ship hits the fans. Yeah, I remember it was like six to nine months somewhere

in there where kind of things to start to fall apart. Yeah, because the because you know, in our culture, you date people because you're you find them attractive and they're exciting, and so you meet people and people who are attractive and exciting that you meet when you're at a bar, you know online because they're good at presenting themselves online. Those people are going to have more narcissism than if you met them by a random draw or if you

let your parents pick them out for you. So you end up meeting people narcissistic and you start these relationships and they're and they're often very positive because you're dating and dating somebody who's sort of energetic and aggressive and self important. Can be kind of fun if you're just going out and doing stuff. You're not sitting there talking about your feelings. But over time relationships usually move from the more extrinsic and more exciting to something that's more

committed and internal and caring and empathetic. Boring, well, boring, boring if you're self centered and narcissistic and shallow, but kind of nice if you want to have a long term, committed relationship with somebody. So that transition is where things start to break. So what is the research show on whether or not narciss and narciss go together. Do they go well together? Oh? In a bunch of studies, there seems to be if you find anything, it's a small

positive correlation between partners narcissism scores. So people more grandiose have partners a little more grandiose. But there isn't a lot. I mean, I can't find really stables findings and say, look, if you have this combination of a high grandiose partner and a low grandiose partner, you're going to get this and this combination will lead to this. I just don't have enough data that I'm comfortable with giving an answer to that. Wow, So no one's really done like a

meta analysis on that. They haven't and it's hard to get the marriage samples, and you know, so you end up with marriage studies that are you know, you find a big data set like Justin Latner had some cool work come out on this looking at it over time, and you know, Meetcha Bach and some of those guys over in Germany have had some cool work on relationships.

So we're seeing some of these processes happen. And it also could be that it's that, you know, the extra version piece is really useful at the beginning and then not so useful as it goes. But the but the disagreeable piece of narcissism doesn't really matter at the beginning. It becomes negative over time. So it could be the sort of the factors of narcissism work differently across a relationship. Good really good point. God would suiting out here? What

do you say we are nerding out? I'm like, are we at a lab meeting? This is the psycho this is what well, this is what I think is unique about the psychology podcast. I hope people find that unique about the Psychotic post. That sounds like a lab. Media listeners, Yeah, yeah, you thin get the inside scoop, you know on this stuff. Not this. I don't. I don't like this sugary sweet presentation of science. Sometimes it would be cool to really

look at those three factors and narcissism. Get a really large sample, I mean, this is a large sample, follow them through relationship formation, you know, maintenance development. I mean, if you could really trace that need a two point three million dollars grant from somebody who's not going to give it to us, but That would be great, It

would be great, great research. Yeah. Yeah, Ideally we'd have these huge studies going on and they'd be federally funded relationship studies, and the federal government would have ten million a year and we'd follow these people. But well, speaking of the federal government, the next topic I wanted to talk about is leadership and narcissism. Now you must get asked all the time, right like Trump, Trump, Trump, narcissism? Do you I mean, does everyone keep bringing that up? Yeah?

Except now I think people are tired of talking about politics and I'm trying to you knows exhausting. Well, it just makes people unhappy. And and but Trump is an interesting case because you know, I've after the election, we went back and this is Courtland Hyatt, one of Josh Miller's students who went back and loot looked at profiles of Trump made by Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton supporters. So they we had people rate the president based on the thirty facets of the Big Five. So we got

facet level ratings from the two different camps. And then we're able to convert those facets into trades, so you're able to convert them to see how well they match onto narcissism or psychopathy or any other thing we wanted. And it turns out that both Trump's supporters and his detractors see him as narcissistic in terms of his basic structuries as a bold personality is larger than life. He puts his names on buildings, he flies rand in a plane with his name on it, as you know, trophy wives.

He's you know, he lives in a penthouse. He's kind of got the whole narcissism thing down. He's a reality television star, for God's sakes. I mean he's he's kind of got the whole pack. He's got the royal flush. I mean, the developer is a reality television star. With the building and with Tiffany's in the basement, I mean

they're in the downstairs. It's crazy. But the difference is that people who support him say, yeah, he's got a big, strong personality, but he's capable of getting the job done, and he cares about us, and he's our guy, and he's going to make the world better. Even though this is how he structured, this is what it takes to get things done. How do you think Lindon Johnson and Richard Nixon, and you know, FDR succeeded. They weren't little babies.

People who don't support Trump say, he's got this narcissistic personality structure. He's completely out of control, he's incapable of doing things. He's only operating for his own business and his own interest, and he's going to be incredibly destructive for us and blow up the world. So you have two different sides seeing the exact same person and see the narcissistic traits, but they frame them differently because they

set them differently in the other Big five traits. Basically they set them in high high conscientiousness or high competence or low conscientious and low competence. So it's it's a different perspective of the same style. But what isn't in doubt is that he obviously scores sky high on lots of facets of grandiose narcissism. Oh yeah, profile is very scissistic. But again, you know, look a look at LBJ and JFK, FDR or I mean, dare we say Clinton? Oh, dare

we say Clinton? I mean, can he have some narcissistic characteristics? Scott? But Clinton had all that extra version and charm and charisma that made him super likable, and Trump's much more. He's a brawler, you know, he's a fighter, so he's not as likable unless he's on your side. Clinton is likable. That like, everyone likes Clinton because he's that charm and extroversion. New Dinnergridge would say, you know, I talk to Clinton, he just I'm just petty in his hands. Well, is

Clinton just an extrovert? Then? I mean, what's the difference in Clinton and Trump in terms of the personality structure, because I don't think Trump Clinton has as much antagonism. How would you judge Clinton's I mean, does he have a stable marriage, does he have stable financial relationships? Does he seem like an ethical gentleman. Does he seem like he's looking out for other people or does he seem like he looks out for himself? I mean, those are

kind of the questions to ask. I mean, as you know, and and LBJ is the one that they've done most of the work on who he is the most narcissistic and he was a he was a monster pretty much stories. But again, the norms of politicians have changed too. I mean, the stuff that you know you could get away with fifty years ago, you can't get away with anymore now.

I don't know about that. Have you seen our current president. Well, I mean if you were having sex in the pool at the White House with intern you know, I mean it was the stuff JFK had going on. I mean, stuff is all was all buried, and they just don't bury it anymore. Everything gets lined up. I think that our current president gets away with a lot of stuff that maybe other president wouldn't get away with it. You think it's having affairs, well in different ways. No, not

in that regard, but in other regards and other policy decisions. Well, he was impeached, that's true. That's that's true. That's but he still got away with it. Didn't didn't matter well the day. The model is that narcissistic leaders get impeached. The model worked. The model worked fair enough to a certain extent. Okay, so let's move on to social media and narcissism. Now. I've been thinking a lot lately that we're we really reward on social media vulnerable narcissism these days.

It seems like, you know, you get in lots of likes if you're you know, who's suffering more? Right now? Who's more, Who's grievance is louder than someone else's grievance. Have you noticed that? Yeah? I think that's actually true.

And I hadn't thought about it like that until you said it, and I realized I have a student new studies that looks at people talking about, you know, of revealing things about themselves on social media, like revealing a stigma, coming out videos for whatever, and those are very popular people. I think they get when somebody reveals something about themselves it's painful or shameful. People relate to that and they

feel drawn to that somehow. So it seems to be something that can work on social media, and so it's popular more than the classic I mean, there's the classic Instagram, lifestyle influencer social media too, but that seems like it's going away a little bit. I'm not a big media guy, but that's my sense a little bit. And then what about you this geek culture and the great fantasy migration, what's that all about? So that was that? So? Sorry?

As student who was a in the LARPing like live action role play, like dressing up as a Druid warrior and playing games, I thought it was the craziest thing I ever heard. But you know what it is like hear something crazy and then you used to go, well, I better pay attention to that. Maybe there's something to it. I don't be a jerk and listen. I listened. I'm like,

it's kind of interesting. Kids are running around playing role games, and it turns out there's a huge number of young people and they're old people now too, that are engaged

in geek culture. And geek culture is this general and because these geeks tracks were kind of separated at one point, they all came together to go to these conferences like Dragon Con or Comic Con, and so you end up with a combination of you know, sci fi, theater, nerds, anime, cause play, UFO, conspiracy, so all these different all these different tracks kind of blend together and it becomes this

fantasy life for people. And what's happened, obviously economically and psychologically, is we took a lot of young people for a lot of decades and told them they were awesome and then said, Okay, the world's not awesome. So we didn't really make it easy for them to plug in the world and actually sort of actualize their awesomeness. So and some of these people thinking they're awesome that weren't there, so that well, maybe some of these people are expressing

their awesomeness and more fantasy realms. So maybe I'm not awesome in real life, but I can be awesome. I can have an awesome avatar, I can be awesome in World of Warcraft. I can be awesome in gaming, so I can have my self esteem needs met in some of these fantasy worlds. And as a society, I sort of looked at how much acreage was being built digitally versus how much acreage was to be being built in reality, and the numbers are orders of magnitude different, and well,

this is where everyone's going to move. I've got to move online. So that was the idea of great fantasy migration. As you have all these people who can't get their ego needs met in the real world. You don't want to fix the real world because you're kind of a dying empire, so you just have everyone migrate to fantasy worlds where they can get ego needs met. So that's the idea. In the research, we did find that Greek culture and then Greek cultural engagement was related to narcissism

and grandiosissm. And people weren't happy about this, but all the data republic and they reanalyzed it like one hundred times, so I feel very confident in it. We did a lot of samples, but you also find vulnerable narcissism and sort of fantasy proneness or schizotippy or that facet of openness that more kind of odd, unusual facet of openness. So I guess it would be almost what do you call the aspect of openness. So it's an interesting combination

of traits that puts you into that geek culture. If you're good with fantasy, if you're kind of a little bit insecure, a little bit narcissistic, it's it's a bit of a pull for you. I'm not labeling people, by the way. And I went down to dragon Con just to check it out. So you've been to some of these events, these nerdy events. Like I said, Scott, I've learned over my many years to respect things rather than

the things that I questioned, to give them time. I went to dragon Con and I went there with my young daughter just to check it out. And first thing I realized with sell that cell phones don't work, and I was trying to find my grad students. None of the phones are working because there's so many people. So I look at these two nerds and they've got like a ham radio CB in their backpack, and they're like they're like helping me out. They're like nice people. Everyone's

nice to me. And then I go watch this nerd parade and there's all these costume parade and Batman. They're all the different Batman coming. They're all dressed as different kinds of Batman. And I saw the Batman with a shark repellent and the surfboard from when I was a kid, and I started screaming and everyone looked at me and they were like, shut up, Nerd. So it turned out to be the biggest start at the whole thing. It was cool, well, people are nice, having a good time,

super creative. I really liked it, you know, it was an interesting, interesting experience. I just I love subcultures and it's such good stuff just without judgment. Yes, it's like when I can get over my like judgment that was instilled in me when I was fifteen by the big kids. This is sort of a nineteen seventy five if I can overcome now, but more like nineteen seventy eight. But I can overcome that. I can enjoy the world a

lot more. Yeah, for sure. So how do we let some of us listening to this show might be like, Wow, I just realized I am such an narcissist? How can is there hope for us if we want to if we want to actively reduce it. Most grandiose narcissists don't want to reduce it though, right it's usually the vulnerable narcissists that want to. Yeah, the challenge, there's a lot of challenges there first, and I think maybe you agree

with me. I hope. So is that what we've seen in the personality science in the last ten years is that personality can change. I mean it seems to me there's a lot of evidence that it can change, and therapy is away, but there are lots of ways. Plus it changes over time, so it's developmental effects and there's socialization effects. So I think the first thing to say is, yeah, I can change. It's not sett in stone like we used to think. The second issue is you got to

want to change, which is what you're running into. And what the field shows is that people are narcissistic who get the therapy can change, but the drop out rate is very, very high because people don't really want to get the negative feedback. They're like, yeah, geez, I don't really want to let go of this part of my ego and it's sort of threatening, so they back off, especially because they're not suffering that badly. It's usually there.

Their husband's suffering, their wife's suffering, their kids are suffering. They're not suffering. So then so then if you really do want to change, what I say is sort of focus on the aspect you want to change. And one of the things with narcissism is people go, well, you got to bring your ego down. It's hard to bring

down your ego. You like your ego. So what I suggest maybe is instead of focusing on your ego at first, maybe focus on expanding your capacity for love and maybe, you know, kind of open up that compassion part, that interpersonal part and connect with people. And over time, if you focus on that, it's not going to be it's not going to have as much ego threat. You're sort of working on being a little more loving person, a kinder person. But that should be a buffer for your

narcissism over time without the threat. And the other thing I talk about a lot is passion, you know, just being passionate about what you do, doing it because you love it, not because you get a trophy, not because you want to get attention. And when you do stuff you love, your ego kind of breaks down and you bring people to you and you draw people in without having to work for it, and you know, be a carnival marker. So passion is really a good thing to cultivate.

And obviously responsibility taking that's less fun. But accountability, you know, just being accountable, taking records, being accountable for what you do, taking a hard look at this is all your humanism stuff. Take it honest, look at your own fault, Suck it up, take a note. Figure out who you are transcend from there self? Transcending yes, okay, Hey w Keith Campbell? What does W stand for? What's what's the deal with the W? It stands for William. Everybody in my family is named

William in some form or another. So there's lots and lots of Williams. And it turns out there are lots and lots of Keith Campbell's who are far more famous and successful than I am who took the name up rather one clone dollar the sheep. You know a lot of famous cricketers. So the w is what I got to do? Either that or I change it to be like a Hollywood guy and come up with a completely new name. Okay, well thanks for coming off that great mystery.

So many people have been many asked about what's the w okay, and so we talked. We hinted to the story type of relationships. People complain that they are with narcissistic partners. But you can have narcissic bosses right like you can. You can deal with toxic people in all sorts of areas of your life. What can you do? Any tips for helping people to cope, you know, with a narciss or deal with it or how to get out you know. It's it's when you said that it

kind of sprung to mind. Is we deal with talks to people all the time, the challenges when they have power over us, whether we're in a committed relationship with with us, when we're working for them, and and that's when we want to just so first off, try to avoid those situations. And it's the shortest answer, I can give to That is, look at people's history, because people a narcissistic have damaged people in the past. It will not be You're not the first one. It's fair ho

to know when you meet somebody. The second thing is protect yourself, keep records, be sure that the person can't damage you to the extent they can. So do a lot of self protection and then just try to either get out of there or figure out how you can leverage the person's ego for your own benefit. So, you know, can be a suck up, you can be a yes man, you can kind of you know, you can do things like people who are narcissistic are open to manipulation because

their ego is a weakness, you know. So I love your people narcissism. When I can deal with these people, you either give them what they want for their ego. You offer them ego, you offer to take away ego. It's a it's a it's a tool you can use a lever. Wow, you're like outsmarting the narcissist. I don't want people to have to be in that position at all, But if people find themselves in that position, there's a way to think about it and how to use some

of that narcissism for your benefit. It's hard if the person's really toxic and you know, really a little bit disorganized and vulnerable, because vulnerable narcissists, you give them any feedback and they can become disregulated. But the more grandiose forms, if you're kind of giving them their ego needs and they kind of know it, you can work with that. Okay, Well, what about psychotherapy for vulnerable narcissism. You know, we publish this papers so and there's a lot of clinical implications

of vulnerable narcissism. You know, what's the hope there for help? You know, I said, there's no good RCT clinical trial on narcissism at all. Vulnerable narcissism is interesting for therapy in a couple of ways. One is a lot of people argue that vulnerable narcissism is core to a lot of mental illness, this idea of sort of this sort of neurotic self centeredness that you're both anxious and depressed

and really stuck in your own head. So back in the day when I was doing my masters, working on depressive mood, you find people who are depressed get a lot of self centeredness because they're depressed or thinking about themselves hy me. They're not out there just looking at the birds living in their dream. That's what happy people do. Happy people give energy, they're abundant. They looking at this guy.

So there's vulnerabilities and a lot of things. So my guess is that lots and lots of therapists out there are skilled at treating vulnerable narcissism as part of cognitive behavioral therapy when they're dealing with people who are anxious

and depressed and vulnerable. Meaning I bet people have tools for dealing with this because it probably comes up a lot in therapy for like I said, depression or anxiety even in BPD, so they might use some of the you know kind of the I'm thinking not the mindfulness based therapies, but maybe some like dialectic based therapy or dialectic based tactics for affect regulation helpful for burlins, right, So I think that might be be helpful for vulnerable

narcissism because with vulnerable narissmies have that that those fluctuating grandiose fantasies. So people are vulnerable like I'm not getting the attention I want, and then they're fantasizing like, dude, I should be getting this award, or I should be winning this prize, or I should be on this TV show, or I should be a leader or have this great relationship.

So they fantasize about that, and so maybe some of those more mindfulness based or dialectic based therapies could help them deal with those two sides of their mind kind of become comfort, you know, with those two sides, you know, hold that grandios to being attached. I don't do you know, I'm not a therapist. They don't do this work. But when I've worked with people who do dialectic behavioral therapy, I find it very very effective for my own anxiety

and my own neuroticism. I've had it helped me, you know. So I like those I like those ideas, and I think anything that comes out of working with borderline personality is probably going to be useful for vulnerable narcissism, and it may be just with some modifications for grandiosity and meeting some of those needs. We should talk about pathological narcissism. We didn't talk about that NPD. That's a real Is that a real thing? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We kind

of just skimmed around it. So when we when you look at NPD, you're talking about a narcissistic personality disorder in the description in the Diagnostics Statistics Manual, the DSM four and five, and go into that rabbit hole if you want, but I might skip it because it probably will change again. Narcissism is described as a combination of grandiosity and vulnerability, with the preference for grandiosity. So I kind of said, it's like two thirds grandiose, but it

depends how you you know, it's it's really crazy. You read the description of narcissism in the hand in the in the DSM, and you're like, oh, that sounds a little vulnerable, and then you read the traits and you're like, that sounds pretty grandiose. And there's a reason for that. It's because the writing was more psychodynamic and the description and the traits were more behavioral, and so the traits captured the grandiosity and then in the new version they

kind of flip that around. So anyhow, so that's how the NPD works. The key to have a diagnosis of it personality disorders, you have to have impairment. It has to be a personality, but it has to have clinically significant impairment has to mess your life up. And so that's really the clinical uh decision point is this not if you mess other people's lives that can be count that can be because that would be a relational impairment. In fact, that I think is the number one impairment

of narcissism. It's going to be interfering with interpersonal relationships. But it could be cognitive distortions. It could be emotional dysregulation. You know, it could be you get angry when people threaten you and you always have anger issues. It could be it's typically though you're screwing up your your relationships. Good, I'm glad, I'm glad. We I felt remiss if we didn't cover the fact there is there's actually uh, it can reach the pathological you know, Eric from called it

malignant narcissism. Yeah, And so what people are talking about now is coming up with specifiers for narcissism, which are kind of diagnostic labels or specifications that you could do. So, yeah,

this person has NPD with a vulnerable specifier. So that's something scha Miller and I have sort of argued for, but people have also said we should have a malignant specifier, because there's a lot of people in the more psychoanalytic community that are really interested in this more psychopathic, dark, toxic,

narcissistic characters. So they want that specifier. And there could be another specifier for sort of expressive, expressive, grandiose, you know, for all the actors that kind of the Iron Man figures out there, you know, the Tony Stark kind of narcissisticistic figures that seem like the bullets that they just destroy people around them. Well, Elon Musk must have some

characteristics of grandee of I don't know. You have to if you want to change the entire world, you have to be gyos and and I think you have to. I mean, but you can be grandiose and ambitious without being a narcissist. But I'm pretty ambitious. If I took an well, my MPI scores are pretty low. But it's hard because I've taken it so many times. It's hard, you know, I probably score myself. But you can be

ambitious and not be mean. No, you can be ambitious and and be and not be scared and not be mean, and that makes you sort of fearless and so that's gonna You're gonna have some aspects of narcissism, and you could get in trouble because of it because you're fearless. You end up cheating on your relationship or taking too big a risks or whatever. But you're not gonna have

those socially toxic effects that you will with the antagonism. Yeah, yeah, okay, So there, what are sort of final frontiers of new treatments A couple you mentioned I thought were fascinating, or brain stimulation techniques, psychedelics, virtual reality. Are these things on the horizon to treatment. Yes, so, so the psychedelics are fascinating.

And my student student and I with Josh Miller, Brandon Weiss studied you know, did his dissertation in ayahuasca ceremonies and studied people going down in Peru and Costa Rica going through the ceremonies. We've got personality data over time. So just recently we really focused on the Big five because that's you know, that's really what you want for a first stab at something. But we had some narcissism

data in there, and we don't really find much. It seems like that ayahuasca ceremonies maybe help with that more vulnerable form of narcissism a little bit. But the effects weren't huge. But the challenge was it seemed to this is what we're talking about. It seemed to make the vulnerability a little less, but it made the grandiosity at least the extra version a little more, you know what I mean. And so it's really like when I looked at I'm like, you know, this isn't really this isn't

in ournarcissism treatment. I think it's I think it can be super helpful for neuroticism, for especially trauma and depression anxiety. Yeah, depression was a big thing. And again this was in a clinical study. This was a looking at the personality traits. But you know when we saw the change in traite neuroticism that Brandon found was a d of about point eight. Would you know, pre post treatment with pure reports, this

is pretty big effects, but again this is this one sample. Now, could you use those same psychedelics though in a in a directed therapeutic context and work with narcissism, or could you work with something like MDMA, which is really an empathogen in a sense, it's a psychedelic But people often refer to it as an empathogen. Would an empathogen work

with something like narcissism? And that that's super interesting to me because that seems really possible if the problem is you have a lack of empathy and empathy, you know, and an empathogen might might work in a very you know, guided set and setting. You know, I would not like Roll and Mollie. I don't know what the kids do. I don't know what they know. What they call those drugs, man, it's so old over the hill, but they must demonstrate name. But using these things in a really in a controlled

set and setting, I think might be beneficial. But I'm not sure. You know, the brain stuff is fascinating. But the more I talked about it, the more it's like, oh, we nailed it with the brain. Oh wait, we were totally wrong with the brain we got you know, it's underpowered. We need to redo all these studies. And I've talked to a few people, as you probably have, who do this work seriously, and I don't get a lot of clear answers about neuralstructure, circuitry and trade level personality. I mean,

there might be something with some some neuroticism. Maybe people have told me. But otherwise I'm just not getting the sense that there's stable signal in our research. Yeah, I don't know too much about that. Yeah. My depth of knowledge that I just find really smart people and talk to them and see what they say. Well, there's just

it doesn't seem to be stabilized. And there's some super cool work like a review to paper where they're looking at grandiose narcissism and then using machine learning to kind of predict narcissism from neurosurgatry. And you can see, you know, you can see this stuff how it could work. I just don't think we're there yet, but it's going to be cool. If we forget there, it would be very cool.

And you seem pretty optimistic, you know, you end your book with the future of Hope, and you say, I'm a big believer in natural consequences, in the reality principle where narcissm thrives in the short term but fails in the long term. You're an optimist. It seems like in a certain extent you see a new world someday, less focused on status and more focused on creativity. Yeah, what makes you hopeful about that? I have to be because if I'm not helpful, I'm just going to drive my

minivan into a lake. But other than the pure pragmatics of being optimistic, is I think that that this this sort of narcissism is exciting and fun, but it's not really satisfying. And my hope is that it kind of burns through our society and people going, you know, I had that narcissism. It was like I had the student ones who who wrote a paper that you know, it's

actually a narcissism Facebook. This is about twelve thirteen years ago when it just came out and it took It was the biggest story in the world, and she got to be famous, and I said, how's your fame and she goes says, fame is awesome, and then like a day later she's like, fame is horrible. Fame's the worst. I get these horrible emails. I hate fame. I'm like, yeah, fame sucks. You know, it's cool, but it kind of sucks, like you don't really want it dark. There's a dark

side to it. And I think maybe when we go through this process of ego that we start to see the it's dark side and people are like, you know, I had enough. It was cool. But you know, maybe we'll get in touch, and I wonder if that's going to happen. I also wonder, since we're reliving nineteen sixty eight, maybe the psychedelic revolution will do something. Maybe that when that kicks in in a couple of years, that'll get people to sort of reframe their ego when they start

thinking about consciousness. When consciousness revolution and thinking that people are thinking about consciousness much more broadly, your little ego, your narcissism, in the face of sort of massive levels of consciousness is nothing. It's trivial. And so you know, people, there are plenty of people in those sort of in spiritual communities that are incredibly narcissistic. It's not that spirituality gets rid of ego by any means. It can be

a great vehicle to expand it. Yeah, but my hope is with some people that will help with the suffering peace, that will help with the sense of disconnection and maybe give people some peace. And when people at peace, they have love, and when they have love, that's pretty good, and status and fame aren't as satisfying as love ultimately, and that people won't that's very Eric from it was just true. If it were true, I'd be you know, I'd be shooting up fame right now. It's just not

for you. Man. Well, I agree very much. I very much agree with that. And you know, I think me and you have we've gone on separate trajectories in our research programs, but I feel like we've converged on our love for humanistic psychology and UH and self transcendence. It's funny how we ended up here. I think so too. When I teach that in class, I just start laughing.

I'm like, I love this humanism. I love thinking about the self not being a statue you put up on a hill and praise, but becoming a process that you're you know, you're a river, not a not a glacier and uh. And so I like that, And I think there must be something about transcending ego that makes you a little less narcissistic, much more effective, and much more engaged in the world. Because your ego isn't restricting you. You can be anything you want want to be. Yeah.

So yeah, yeah, Carl Rogers talked about that in the Fully Functioning Human has that flexibility. Yes, I like it. Yeah, they're open to all of their experience. Well, thank you so much for being such a great friend and colleague and for really being a legend in this field. You are you know the science of narcissism. It's almost synonymous with W. Keith Campbell. So thank you so much for that chat today. Oh thanks Scott, this is great. I

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