Vanessa Van Edwards || How to Captivate People

to be speaking with my guest, Vanessa van Edwards. Vanessa is a self described recovering, boring, and awkward person who performs research on human behavior to figure out what makes people tick. The latest book, Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People, provide simple ways to improve your social intelligence and level up your relationships. This should be a very practical and informative episode. Vanessa, it's so great to have

you on the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, there's just so many things to discuss with you, but I want to like talk about I bet there's just this huge transformation in you because you're right about how you were an awkward kid and that's just like really hard to see like talking to you, So can you maybe take me back to like, if you don't mind calling back to your child, of course, yeah, yeah, of course,

you know it's funny. I for a long time tried to bury that part of my life, and then I realized that through writing and through thinking about it, actually the more I talked about it, the easier it got, so I'd be happy to dive into those awkward years. So I was. Actually I joke that I'm a recovering awkward person. And as a kid, I think it came because my safe spaces weren't where the other kids were, so like recess, you know, the playground just terrified me.

But I love the classroom, whereas like birthday parties, chuck e cheese, Oh my goodness, nightmares in the ballpit, nightmares in the ball but you know, chadding with teachers or having like one on one play dates was great. And I think that even back then, I didn't realize it at the time that I was not an introvert or an extrovert. I was sort of that in between that ambivert. And I think that we're now discovering that most people are in this in between phase of an ambrovert. Yeah,

most people are right, Statistically, that's absolutely right. Yeah, And you know what's funny is we So that was something that I kind of stumbled upon later and when I started reading about the research on amber version, we put a little quiz up on our website just because I was curious, you know, I said, Hey, if you heard the word introvert or extrovert and it's never sounded like you, take this quiz and see what you think. And I was like, oh, maybe we'll get a couple hundred people

to take it. We have had something like twenty six thousand people take that little quiz, and of course most of them end up being amberverts. Of course it's a little bit self selecting because people who are taking at think that they are. But I was shocked at how many people feel this is a pain point where socially, it's not that they are completely afraid of social interactions, but they have to be able to refuel in the

right areas. Yeah, that's just that's part of being human, isn't it like having to recharge every now and then? Do you know any pure extrovert that like twenty four to seven has to yak ata yak not one that I believe, you know, I know people who say that they're extroverts, but I think that also, you know, they might consider recharge time like even driving over to an event or getting ready, that's even recharge time in itself. And I think that you're right when you said, isn't

that what life is about? I think? And not to get too deep too quickly, but you know, people send me all kinds of secrets and I am honored by them, Like people send me all kinds of emails about social interactions and their history and their relationships, and I'm always shocked by the same thread, which is that people are really just trying to figure themselves out, and then they're also trying to figure out how they relate to others. And that seems to be what plagues us and what

fascinates us and what dazzles us. It seems to be for everyone, and that's kind of what drives me with my work as well, and I'm think with your work also. Yeah, no, it absolutely drives me in very much. When we were very much a social species, but as this kid, as this awkward kid at Chuck E Cheese, you felt as though like you were an observer. Did you feel like you and like the roots of who you are now could be seen as a kid like did you want

to like? Were you an immense people watcher? Oh? Yeah, yeah. You know. In my family situation, my parents were divorced very young and I had to switch houses every Monday night. And I think that when I entered into a new house, I never knew what I was entering into. I didn't know what the moods were. You know, I hadn't seen my siblings in a week, and I had to vary very quickly. At the time, I wouldn't have called it this, but now I call it this. I had to read

people and I had to speed read them. I had to very quickly diagnose what did I miss, what were the dynamics, what was everyone's mood? And where do I fit in this week? And that was a skill that I think now I try to break it down into a science of what is speed reading and why does it work? So yeah, I think that that observer piece saved me a little bit as a kid speed reading. Are you really good at speed dating? Because you can

really do good job speed reading. I haven't dated in so many years, my friend, I would not know I might be terrible at it. Now that it's been so long. The funny thing is, I like the idea of speed dating, and I've run a couple of workshops where we've run experiments around speed networking, which is kind of similar, I mean a little bit. It's business dating, and the patterns that we found in the experiments we did around speed networking of how quickly we read people and how we

engage people quickly are fascinating. So maybe if I use that science, I could dive back into speed dating if I had to. Maybe, or you could. I could totally see after reading your book and your kind of personality, I could see you having your own reality TV show. Have you thought about that? Oh, I'm sure you know. I've been approached by a couple of TV companies. Oh goodness. But I really really have a strong value system around

the kind of edutainment I produce. And there's a fine line, I think, between reality television and entertaining educational television, and so I've never found the right fit. I've thought about it, but I don't know. I don't know that that seems like a scary can of worms to open. Fair enough, Well, you do good enough with what you do, and I want to dive in a little bit to some of the science that you talk about. You've really read a lot of articles, and then you have your own lab.

Was that right where you do studies? Well, how do you know how to do studies? Do you have a degree in psychology? I did my undergraduate Emory and I studied sociology there, so I did a lot of quantitative and qualitative research for my thesis. We do very very simple experimental designs, and typically we partner with a researcher or a data analyst to help us make sure that we are doing it correctly. And they're usually very basic. Usually it's one basic hypothesis with one variable at a time.

You know, they're not super advanced. Our big thing that I try to go for, since we're not with an academic institution and since I don't have a psychology degree, is big data, big numbers. So if I partner with a researcher and say, oh my gosh, Vanessa, if you could get ten thousand people to answer this study, we could really see some big patterns. Here's the puzzle we're

looking at. I'm like, great, Like, let's partner up. Let's set up this experimental design and so it's a little bit of a different take on the traditional academic model of you know, an equals thirty six college seniors. I mean, we look for patterns in that, so it's a little bit more citizen science y and the big data. Wow. Can we be friends ten thousand people? Wow? Yes, yes, we're already friends. Oh my gosh. If you ever anyone

listening Scott, if you have any ideas for puzzles. We get all of our ideas for research experiments, usually either from readers or from a big database that we have. So, for example, one of our research experiments is on Ted talks. Why because we have this amazing database of free Ted videos with viewcounts exposed. So anytime you have an idea for an experiment, you let me know. I've got lots of ideas. Here's one idea, not an idea, but I have a question for you that you don't talk about

in the book. But why does it seem like women like bad boys? Oh god, yes, okay, I really want to study this, like in great depth. This would be a fascinating topic and I do have some hypotheses on this, so you're right. I didn't talk about this in the book. But I think that when we're talking about relationships, and something I touched on the book was something called resource theory, which is basically that all of us as we interact

are exchanging resources. A lot of people kind of are like, you know, that's such a horrible way to look at humanity, but it's a fact that when we are in a relationship, we are looking for something and we are giving something. And so what the resource theory says is that there are six resources, and we kind of have one that we want the most and one that we give away the most. And I think that with bad Boys is that it's typically the combination of women who are seeking

the resource of love. So they really want that feeling of belonging, they really want that feeling of acceptance, and they're paired with someone who doesn't give it back. So there's this draw to this person doesn't have a lot of love, but I can find a way to get it. I'm going to either fix them or I'm going to tap into that untapped resource. I think that's something about this hidden resource they can't get to. No. I mean, I definitely think that the sort of economic supply demand

model applies there. But you think logically, you know, like why waste your time with that when you can get it easily from more securely attached mail m Yeah, And what's crazy about it is that, unfortunately, and I'm sure you read the letterature on this, when we look at like attachment theory, for example, I'm not sure I think that fall into patterns not because they're good for us,

because they're comfortable. And by the way, this is something that I try to challenge myself with a lot, which is am I doing this because it's comfortable for me? Or am I doing this because it's good for me? And it's very hard to know the difference between the two. I mean, asking yourself in the first place is hard, but I think knowing the difference between the two is

one of our biggest challenges as humans. Well. I mean, I just imagine that there are a lot of situations where it's neither comfortable nor good for you, but you still feel hell to do it. You know, like, it can't be all that comfortable when someone is like locking you out emotionally, right, that can be that's true. Maybe there's a third one in there, and I'm not sure. I'm just brainstorming out loud. Maybe the third one is like,

am I learning from this? So maybe it's like this isn't good for me and it's not comfortable, but this person, you know, critiquing me or this abusive relationship, I'm learning my boundaries, I'm learning my needs, I'm learning my value system. So maybe there's that third in there that's like somewhere in between, and you decide if you stay in it, it's bad for you because you're enabling this bad behavior, and if you leave it, it's good for you because

you're like, yes, like I set up a boundary. Yeah, that is really interesting. I want to test that. There's got to be I want to look at like like ten thousand people individual difference predictors of women that are

explicitly attracted to bad boys. Ooh, you know, I happen to have a way we could test this, So a preliminary, preliminary kind of research into this could be One thing that we test a lot in our lab is we have a you know, the Big five, the kind of standard personality test that the forty four standard questions that people use to test personality. We have a huge database of people who'd taken that forty four question questionnaire just

to test themselves, and we watch the research. I'm always curious what kinds of numbers are popping up in the general population and how it relates to gender or location, because we also track like basic demographic info. It would be very interesting to ask women, and this would only be women who are willing to self claim this, but it'd be interesting to ask women in a personality questionnaire,

are you attracted to the typical bad boy? And if they answer yes or maybe it's on the scale of one to five, does that correlate to a personality traits?

Maybe it's a facet of personality, like for example, a hypothesis could be that if a woman was high in agreeableness, and agreeableness is you know, how you interact with people, how much you cooperate, if you default to yes or no. If a woman was high in agreeableness, maybe she would be more attracted to bad boys because she has trouble with boundaries, because that's a part that's a facet of

her personality. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. And I was definitely thinking of the Big five as part of the individual differences package. But also psychopathology would be interesting to look at early childhood instability a whole. I could put together the whole battery. But this really is a diversion, isn't it from your book? Yes? I love science DIVERSI those are my favorite. Well, thanks for letting me go there. What your book is really about is

answering the question how can I succeed with people? Now? What does it mean if I've succeeded with a person? Like, how do I know that I've succeeded with a person? Ah? Okay, that's a really good question success when it comes to people. I don't like treating people as a means to an end. I usually like treating people as an end in themselves. You know. So I'm wondering what that means. Yes, So how I define success, at least in this book is when you have the desire to level up a relationship.

So one thing I talk about a lot and I think about is the different levels of relationship. And maybe this is just how I think. I tend to be a very black and white I love frameworks and levels. But if you think about relationships like levels, and you think like, okay, first there's strangers, and there's acquaintances. Then there's even a step before friends. Maybe it's warm acquaintances, then friends, then best friends, maybe partners. The list goes up.

I think that when you are successful with people, there's two things that happen. A If you want to level up a relationship with someone, you have the ability to do so. So you know how to connect with them, bond with them, ask the right questions, make time with them. To be able to turn a stranger into a colleague, or a colleague into a partner, friend into a partner, you're able to level up. Second is that when you're

leveling up, you feel like there's an equality there. So I think that that's in a way that we can succeed in succeeding with people. That's a very measurable way to talk about success. That's interesting. So that sounds like a game leveling up, you know. I'll actually, you're right. I think that it does sound a little bit like a game. I agree with you, that does sound like a game. I don't think that a game is too far off. And here's what I mean. I hope that

it doesn't offend anyone. Yeah, what I mean is that I used to think of relationships very seriously. Where I was very serious about what people thought about me. I wanted to impress everyone. I took every interaction very like concretely, I took notes about it after every interaction. And then I realized that life is about experimenting. And when we

talk about games, we're talking about being playful. We're talking about going in with hypotheses that you're not sure if they're going to work or not, that you might lose, but losing is also part of the game. So what I mean is that when I go into interactions, when I encourage my students to go interactions, is to take themse a little bit less seriously. Think of it like

an experiment. Okay, you walk into a networking event and your goal, just like in a game, is to level up cold contacts to warm contacts, and maybe your measure of that success is handing out business cards and getting follow up coffees. If you go in with a little bit of a game mindset, you think to yourself, Okay, I'm going to show up as my best self. I'm going to pack some of my favorite business cards. I'm going to try to ask a couple questions, and we're

going to see who I meet. Worse comes to worse, I lose, I don't meet anyone. Best comes to best. I meet a couple interesting people, I get their cards, we go to coffee. It's a very different mindset than I'm going to go and I'm going to get ten contacts. And I don't get ten contacts. I'm an absolute failure, which is kind of how I used to think about people skills. Instead, I try to adopt this, yeah, a little bit like a playful mentality. Well, it sounds that

you've come a long way tried. I mean, I think that I realized that me trying so hard and taking things seriously was not good for my happiness or anyone I was meeting. It also wasn't very authentic, you know. I mean, people talk about authenticity all the time, and it's I think it's hard to measure authenticity. But I think what people mean is that you show up as you are and you don't try to be something you're not.

I think that when you take a kind of playful mentality to interactions, it helps you say, yeah, this is me. I want to win as me, you know, I want to try to get relationships with me. I want to try to level up as me, and if I can't. That's okay, we're not a good fit. I like that. I like that it's it's a game. It's a playfulness that isn't about manipulation. It's a different kind of playfulness.

You're just just being playful, you know, no attached. Yeah, and I'm I think it's like so interesting to approach relationships and actually tell people you're in that kind of playful experimental mindset. Like, for example, if I have a hypothesis and I do this all the time before I go to events, I'll say, Okay, I have a hypothesis that if I don't ask someone what they do, I'll actually learn more about them, because I wonder if I don't ask them what they do, if they like what

they do, they'll tell me on their own. If they don't like what they do, they will studiously avoid it and talk about other things. That's a high bosis. However, that means that I can't rely on a very standard conversation starter. So I will go into relationships and say to people, Hey, you know, I know this is crazy, but I'm trying out this new conversation starter. Would you mind if I used it on you. I've never had

anyone say no to that question. And then it's like if it doesn't work, like it's definitely happened where it's not worked, Like I've asked a quite a conversation shutter. We both just end up laughing because it's a ridiculous conversation starter. And then it's like, okay, like that didn't work, but at least we both tried it. Yeah, so that

sounds like fun. That sounds like something that someone would do if they have like social anxiety, like a pre something to like bring in their pocket, you know, if they feel kind of stuck or frozen. I think that, Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Well, a lot of these tools are and I'm not diagnosed to social anxiety, but I think that I definitely have had it. You know, had moments of social anxiety growing up, especially because I used to get hives went into social interactions when I

was younger. Yeah. Yeah, from my toes to my neck. It was horrible. And that was I think a you know, a form of social anxiety. But it went away, thank goodness.

It only happens very rarely now as an adult. I think that for the most part, anyone who's read the book so far with social anxiety has said, you know, everything is like a tool, and I put it in my back pocket, and just knowing that it's there makes you feel a little bit confident, even if I don't necessarily use the conversation harder that I put in my back pocket, Knowing that I have that tool that I

could use really helps. Yeah, it's like training wheels, But isn't the ultimate goal to take the training wheels off and be able to be really spontaneous in the moment and kind of contextually react to whatever the person's doing or looking like. Yes, absolutely, I will say that happens faster for some people versus others. It also changes on

what your goals are. Like. For example, it's much harder to not know anyone go into a speed dating situation and your goal is to find your wife or your husband, right like, that's a really really big goal, a wonderful goal, a very big one for you. Might be oh my gosh, Yes, but you might get better at the small talk or the dates or the early parts faster if you're going through that phase. So think it depends on your goals

and also the kind of experiments that you're willing to do. So, like, if you're just trying out conversation starters, that's not as hard as possibly doing resource theory experiments, right, Like, that's a much deeper one that might take you a little bit longer to be spontaneous, Whereas now I can go into networking event and I don't have to memorize conversation starters anymore, you know, I it is spontaneous for me,

whereas some of the deeper stuff is a little harder. Yeah, I imagine that not just people of social anxiety, but I wonder if people who are on the autistic spectrum really could benefit from your book as well. You know, it's in pase. Yeah, you know, so I had never ever considered it. And then in one of my online courses, so I teach an online course it's similar to the book.

You know, it's obviously very visual, and it was posted in adults with Asperger's and adults with autism community, and we had hundreds of students take it and they said it was the only course they had ever taken on people skills or soft skills that actually was very helpful. And so I guess I think that the way that I think is similar to the way that they think. So that was extremely such a wonderful surprise. And now I'm trying to figure out talking to some of the

members of the community. You know, what more can I do? Yeah, because Simon Baron Cohen has shown you know, the ring and the mind and the eyes test is one of the deficits from people in the auto the spectrum me in your book, you systematically go through each of the

major emotions and show examples, which is really good. You show pictures that show examples of what different emotions look like with different faces, and then you delineate what you know, like upturned brow you know means this and that and you know, for instance, I learned what I failed the contemptuous item on your test. Yeah, what score did I get? I took your beginning test? How did it go? And I scored a one forty which was a good good

but room for improvement range. Yeah, A hope with everyone. I'm not hopeless. Yeah, no, no, for sure not. You know, it's funny the contemptuous micro expression. So I think I mentioned this. So, by the way, for everyone listening, contempt or negativity or scorn is one of the simplest of all the micro expressions. It's just a one sided mouth raise. So if you kind of give a little smirk, lift up one of your sides of your mouth, that's a contempt smirk. That single question, and we have a body

language quiz on our website. That is the question that most people get wrong, and most people guess boredom, which is interesting because that's a huge difference from scorn to boredom, which is a passive emotion that shows that we are sometimes assuming that someone is neutral when actually there's a tinge of negativity there. So you are not alone, my friend, in guessing that. That's guess that one wrong, because that

is the one that people most often get wrong. So, okay, so you talk about that, but what are some other ways that you can make a good first impression other than decoding what someone's feeling. Yeah, so when you're talking about first impressions, you're talking about two different things. You're talking about the non verbal and the verbal. So you know, a lot of studies have found that our first impression happens in the first second or first few seconds in

meeting someone. So it's very rare that you can have a verbal exchange those first few seconds. Usually it happens nonverbally. However, there is an exception to this, and it is on the phone, so I thought I would Maybe this has been on my mind recently today as I was thinking about first impressions, even on this podcast where I said, Hey, I'm so excited to be here. You welcomed everyone and greeted everyone. That was actually my entire first impression for

this entire podcast. And the reason I was thinking about it is because I don't know you can hear and losing my voice a little bit, and so I was really worried today about my vocal power. And I know that for first impressions, how we answer the phone hello versus in person, when we reach out our hand and we shake someone's hand and we say, hey, good to meet you, that vocal power as actually sets the stage for how someone feels about you for that entire interaction.

So when it comes to the vocal first impression, the best thing you can do is actually have your vocal cords as relaxed as possible. And that sounds kind of silly, but actually what we have found we're doing a vocal power experiment on our website right now, is that if you are standing in confident, nonverbal so taking up space, feet spread wide, hands on hip and right now as I record this, I'm actually standing that confidence comes through

your voice into your hello. So people who rated there was the same person said hello with five different body language expressions. Their power posing expression got the highest overall ratings by random strangers. Yeah, so there's something about this internal confidence piece, you know, showing up, knowing tools, showing up as relaxed as possible, taking up space. I always

use the armrest when I'm in a chair. I always try to, you know, stand with my feet both planted and use like have space to my arms and my Torso that actually translates into your vocal cords, relaxes your voice, and then comes out in a great first impression. So it sounds to me like, in the parlance of psychological literature, you are a high self monitor. Yes, oh yeah, I

oh yes. Now I tend to be a low self monitor, which gets me in trouble a lot because I tend to just have no filter and I tend to not I'm not thinking, you know, like, oh, how can I make a good first impression. I'm just thinking, like I'm just gonna be myself and whatever. And I'm not saying that's good, but I'm saying, are there individual differences here? Though? And actually, so what you said was really important And she said I'm just going to show up and be myself.

That is a facet of confidence, right, So for me, I wish I wish that I could show up and just be like, yeah, I'm gonna be myself. The problem is is I am an anxious person. I'm a high neurotic, and so being myself actually means I'm quite anxious. What works better for me? And this is what you're talking about. Individual differences is consciously knowing, Okay, I'm going to show up to this event or I'm going to go on this podcast, I'm so excited to talk about this work.

I actually have to get myself in the mindset of how excited I get about my experiment or the book, or showing up at this event or whatever my goal is, because that helps me dial up that confident, excited part of myself that maybe gets overshadowed by the anxious part of myself that's like, oh my gosh, no one's gonna like me, which is always like the thing that the baseline fear that we all have. That makes a lot of sense. But wait, do narcissists have that fear though?

Are they like thinking like, oh my gosh, what if someone doesn't like me? Are they that? No? No, not usually. No, I'm no expert on narcissm. Actually I've specifically avoided I know this is crazy, and I'm happy to talk about it from a business perspective. I have specifically avoided doing too much research on narcissists and publishing or writing about narcis a lot. Because you're right, they do not fall into any of the normal averages that we're talking about.

They have different social filters, they have different social fears, if any, by the way, like sometimes it's not even any but they're very complicated. Sometimes they have great self confidence and also great amounts of low self esteem. So they are their own bucket of tricks, and I might be very equipped to talk about them intelligently. Well, they probably would have loved hearing that. It makes them sound special. Oh no, oh no, your ego. But no, that's cool.

So I want to talk about chrisma a little bit. You talked about confidence. Is chrisma more than just confidence? Like, what is the package of charisma. Have you decoded that? Yeah,

So charisma is definitely more than confidence. And this is why I think chrisma is such a really interesting topic because charisma and there was researchers at Harvard Business School that looked at the research on how we judge people in those first few seconds and they found it's a combination of warmth and competence that people who are very friendly, good team player, very likable, combined with people who are

also very competent, knowledgeable, dependable, powerful, That combination, that sweet spot hits the closest to charisma more than confidence. So, for example, a narcissist could have a lot of confidence but not be very charismatic. Right, they could be highly full of their own abilities, but if they're not very likable, which is a problem for a lot of narcissists, then they are not going to hit that charismatic sweet spot. That's why you have so many people who have a

unique blend or brand of charisma. For example, be the typical stereotype of charisma, the bubbly extrovert, that's fine, but you could also be highly charismatic and be a thoughtful introvert. You could also be highly charismatic as a very nurturing, compassionate soother right, those are all we consider all those types charismatic, and it's because they happen to hit the sweet spot a very high incompetence and very high and warmth.

I like that. I like both those things, so that's cool, yes, And I will tell you that it's something that I watch out for it. So if you're like, you know, meeting people or you're listening to podcasts, I'm always trying to kind of think about, Wow, this person. Do I feel like I could sit with them over a cup of coffee? Are they likable? Are they friendly? And do I also feel like I would love to hear them give it a TED talk? If I say yes to both,

I'm like, yes, this person is very highly charismatic. If I ever get a TED the main stage Ted talk, I think I'm going to just sit there on the stage and drink coffee, love it and pretend I'm giving the giving the talk to them, you know the other drinking coffee with me to signal both warmth and competies. Oh yes, you could bring up a little armchair and have a steaming mug of coffee. And the funny section on the side table. I love that visual. I love

join me, come join me for some Yes, happily. I also think that what's interesting about warmth is warmth is a little bit harder if you are strangers. And this makes sense of course, right, like we've just met each other. So what's funny about warmth is, well, obviously have this protection part of our brain, the limbic part of our brain.

That's like, we don't know, you know, we don't want to get too friendly with someone who we haven't had multiple experiences with, and so the more activities we have with someone, the more locations we see them. That's why if you're in the dating world, I always say it's really good if you can see someone in multiple different locations because that helps with your warmth, that helps ther approachability because someone's like, oh, I think I saw that I last week at my gym, and didn't I see

her at the grocery store. Wait a minute, are we in the same cycling class? Yeah? You know, Like then it's like, yeah, we are in the same cycling class. Let's go grab drink. It's so so much easier. Even like, for example, if Scott and I we did the same cycling class. Both of our warmth would be dialed up because just because we had seen each other in a different location, even if we hadn't talked to each other. Yeah,

life so works like that. You're right, if you were actually on your website you say you're a master lie detector. Oh can you say that you could teach someone how to be a master eye detector in a hundred minutes. Well, there's also a really good, beautiful range in line detection. So in line detection lying is a beautiful science. I mean, I find deception fascinating for lots of reasons. There's flat

out deception, there's also self deception. There's also I'm not sure yet, right, Okay, Cay tell the listeners a little bit about what the triple threat is. Yeah, So the triple threat is the nonverbal side of first impression. And it's a kind of cute see name. Because I was trying to find a way to tie together this fascinating science on first impressions. And there's three things that we can do in the first few seconds of meeting someone that really make us that triple threat of warmth and

competence and help us level up. So the first one is real easy. It's hands. So we love hand gestures. We cannot help it. As humans, we love to see someone's hands. It helps with comprehension, it helps with trust. And so you always heard your mother say, you know, don't put your hands in your pockets, don't put your hands behind your back. I will level that up that mother's advice and say, not only should you have your

hands visible, should also have your hands be expressive. So if you're going to shake someone's hands, indicate that you're going to shake someone's hands by leading hand first. That helps them know, ah, this person's coming in for a handshake. Or better yet, you have an elevator pitch. Think about how you can describe your words along with your hands. So talking about a big idea, you hold your hands

like a big beach ball. If I were to hold my hands like I was holding a little penny and I said I have a big idea, you would be like, what, it's not that big. It's the size of a penny. And that's because our brain loves hand gestures. So thinking about how you can be explanatory, like, for example, right now, I'm using lots of hand gestures as I talk and that also, I believe, and I'm going to do research on this. I think that also comes through in my

vocal charisma. So if I were to be sitting on my hands right now, I think that I would sound less expressive. It's something that we're going to hopefully test soon. So that's the first part of the triple threat. The second part of the triple threat is something I mentioned earlier,

which is confident body language. There's a different set of research that's quite compelling on athletes and that athletes across cultures, when they win a race, they take up a lot of space, and when they lose a race, they take up very little space. And this has been seen across cultures,

across genders, across races. So if you want to come across as a winner, we associate pride body langth whige maybe not power by languge, pride body language with taking up space, so keeping your shoulders down and back, having your arms nice and loose, and using the armrests. As I mentioned earlier, those are indications of pride, which is exactly what we want to show because it's a facet of competence. Nice and there's some there's something called authentic pride. Right,

I've never heard authentic pride. Really, there's the whole this whole research literature distinguished between hubristic pride versus authentic pride. Like, yeah, that's a whole other literature. I could say to you. It's from an evolutionary point of view, we evolved multiple roots to social status, Like hubristic pride tends to be the kind of that's with conceit and arrogance, whereas authentic pride is a very stable form of self esteem and competence.

So it just sounds to me what you're talking about is what research is called authentic pride, which is good. Oh I love it. Yes, please send me that research. Y I teach you something you taught you're teaching me about. Yeah, so I'm glad, Oh my gosh, I learned it. I love it. Yes, yes, please. And the last one I know that we talked about the trible threat is eye contact, which we've again been taught by Mom and dad. Make

eye contact. The reason why eye contact is so important is because it produces oxytocin, which makes us feel that warm, yeah, that warm luscious connection with someone else. And so the eye contact is a way to keep building on that warmth. It's really important for the warmth factor. Someone can be very highly competent and overhead gazing, but you will not get that warmth factor if you're not making that mutual gazing as someone's connecting with you because they want that

oxytocin that comes from the eye contact. Okay, so we've just mastered the first five minutes of an interaction. Now what about the first five hours? How can you predict someone's behavior and prevent miscommunications? I think that's where we really get into the most trouble. In fact, I think a lot of the literature out there, a lot of the articles that are out there are on either the first five minutes or leadership like the So my book is broken up to the first five minutes, the first

five hours, in the first five days. We have a lot on either end first five days, the first five minutes, very little in the middle. That time in your relationship where you've been dating for maybe you've gone on two or three dates. You're not sure if someone could do more, you're not sure if you could be serious with someone that time, and a friendship where you've seen each other a couple of times, but you're like, should I get

to this this person's number and text with them. It's a colleague you see at work, but you're not sure we've got out to lunch together, but could we also hang out on the weekends. It's that phase of the relationship. So I have five different hacks on this, but I think the biggest one is the one that we touched on earlier was which is reading micro expressions. So decoding hidden emotions, I think is like a secret superpower that

we don't leverage everyone. At least research for doctor Paul Eckman has found that we make seven of the same universal micro expressions across cultures and genders. And this is extremely powerful because it means that it's not cultural, it's not learned. If you learn these seven micro expressions, and I can say this from at least my personal experience and working with students, it's like someone flipped on the world in HD. It's like all of a sudden, you

see things you never saw before. So you learned already one on the podcast Contempt, and I actually think that you should start with that. A lot of times people will try to learn all seven at once, and it's a lot So what I would actually say is over the next few weeks, see if you can spot the smirk, See if you feel yourself making the smirk, and see if it gives you any extra insight into the person you're speaking with, the conversation you're having, or even your

own feelings on a topic. I like it better when we can go one micro expression at a time, and that's the perfect first one to start with. Have you done the Yckman training? I have. Yeah, I've done both of his trainings, I think, the main micro expression training and also the subtle micro expression training. And he also did a couple of lectures with my team in my lab on some of the current research he's working on.

He's also in the book. Also, I can I would love to issue a couple of like dares or experiments that listeners could try at this podcast. Okay, so you know I mentioned that the playful experimental mindset, and I really think that that frees us. It frees us from anxiety, it frees us from expectations. If we go into interactions like okay, like I'm going to try this, we cannot lose. So the first experiment I would love for you to

try is what I just mentioned. See if you can spot contempt in the next seven days, and if you see it, think about what else you could learn from that person. So either asking them is everything, okay, did I miss everything? Let me know what's going on for you, Or if you feel it on your own face or see it on your own face on a video call, think about exploring that emotion deeper. That's challenge number one. Challenge number two is see if you can do the

triple threat. So at your next event, at your next meeting, try to walk out in that athlete pride, posing authentic confidence with hands first, go into that handshake, and then try to maintain eye contact at least for the few minutes first few minutes of a conversation. And the last one is see if you can challenge yourself to level up one relationship in your life. So maybe that's a colleague who you've been trying to ask out to lunch or dinner. Maybe it's a friend who you want to

deep in the relationship with. Maybe it's someone you want to date seriously, and see if you can try to level up, because I think that's what life is about. It's about trying to level up and deepen our relationships. I love that. So those are two great challenges and I'll report back to you how I did. Now you kind of talk about how you can get along with anyone, that you kind of have those skills. Is that true?

Like do you really feel like you've obtained a state you're like the Buddha of social relationships, like you can get along with anyone. Oh, you know, so there's a distinction here. So what I try to say in the book is I want to teach you how you can get along with anyone, but not necessarily everyone. Oh I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I mean is you should try to honor when you have that gut instinct that you don't get along with someone or you're not

on the same page with someone. So there is many many times we're all having an interaction with someone and you know, I'm asking interesting conversation charters and you know, trying to tap into their hidden emotions, and it's just not jiving. Like it's just not going as well as I would have liked. We're not having a lot of me too moments. I think that one of the most important skills is to say cool, like this isn't someone that I want to level up with have a great night, right.

I wouldn't say that to them. I would be like, I'm not going to live up with you. Yeah, but I do. I think, you know what, like this isn't my person? Yeah, And I think that that's okay, Like that is such a good skill to have. What if they're your boss though, And I'm not speaking from personal experience, but what if what if there's someone you have to work with and you're like, I don't want to level up with this person. What do you do? Then? These

tools work? And I've been in that awful situation, and I hate that situation. It's extremely difficult when you have to get along with someone you don't like. But it happens right. Bosses, colleagues, in laws, partners, I mean, it happens right. And these tools do work. I do not encourage people to use those tools in a long term, difficult relationship. I think when we say no to people, when we set up boundaries, we have so much more space and energy to say yes to the right people

and the right things. Yeah. I really like that. So finally we get to the most advanced step, the first five days. Now, why is five days the most advanced step? Why is that now like five years. Yes, that's true. Okay, So here's my thinking behind it. So I was thinking about, Okay, when you spend five days with someone on a vacation or on a work retreat or as a friend in college, if you can spend five good days with someone, you know that you are set up to have a long relationship.

Anytime that I've been on a trip with someone or you know, I think about studying a broad like for example, I met my husband studying abroad, and I think I knew within the first five days that he would be a lifelong friend. Now, I did not know at the time that we would be dating or married, but I certainly knew with those first five days that, like, this

was someone that was special to me. I think that after the first five days, it sort of indicates that if you want to this is someone that you could have a relationship for the next five, ten, twenty years, if those first five days go well, if you're happy with them, if you feel like you're driving yes, and some of these strategies that you talk about about how you say vulnerability is attractive, couldn't some of those strategies apply, Like in the first five minutes as well, Like, I

find like vulnerability is attractive even at first impression for me, just to a certain degree depends what you're vulnerable about. But yeah, so I agree with you. I think that vulnerability. I mean, obviously, the first page of my book is a whole bunch of vulnerability, you know, expose a's and that's okay for me. How and I know that a lot of introverts are reading my book. I have a

lot of introverted students. Vulnerability, if it's really true and it's really authentic, can be quite scary, and so I didn't want to make it something you felt like you had to do with in the first five minutes. If you're with someone you're like, wow, like I really feel safe, Like I really feel like I could share something vulnerable. I one hundred percent say go for it. But if it's real vulnerability, it can be scary and sometimes not

always safe. Like there, I can remember specific moments in my life where I shared a vulnerability too early and it was painful. It was painful. We've all been there, and so oh, oh my gosh, and you're just like, why why did I do that? So it is always an option to exercise early. Same with actually all the things in the Final five Hacks or Final four hacks. For example, one of the other hacks is how to

deal with difficult people. Hopefully you're not dealing with difficult people in the first few minutes of me them, but you might. Right you kept someone in a day, your process is kind of in a bad mood, and so you have the option to use any tips in the book in the first five minutes. But I think that in most situations the deep triggers can happen after a

couple of dates. And also remember that people are always putting on their best face in the first few minutes or first few hours typically, especially like in dating, everyone's trying really hard, and so it's hard to get through that first layer in the first few dates. Absolutely, you have the sentence I really liked you said. Turn people on by making them feel wanted, liked and known. Is that, in a lot of ways, getting like the heart of

what you call social attuonment. Yes, that's exactly, That's exactly what social attonement is. And the important piece of that, I think is you have to be in the place where you can give in an interaction like that, like I didn't say find people who make you feel wanted, hard and known. I said you have to try to

make people feel that way. And that's why that's literally the last section of the book, because that's been the whole first part of the book, saying if you're not leveling up with people, if they're not saying me too, if you're reading contempt and anger and discussed, they are not safe. They're not worthy of that very very high goal of relationships. I like that. Look, Vanessa, thank you so much for chaling with me today. And I just want to say to everyone listening to the show, I

think you should check this book out. It's a lot of fun. I raced through this book like it's very there's a lot of helpful information, but it's also just really fun to read, like your personality shines through and you actually have the same personality talking to like you write just like you talk. Yes, not everyone is like that, I know, so well. Thank you so much for reading it, and thank you so much for recommending it and for everyone listening, Like, if you have any questions or feedback,

that's the stuff that good science is made on. So feel free to send me your tips to your puzzles or your questions. Sounds good. One last question, did we level up? We leveled up? Yeah, sounds great. Thanks again for being on the show, Thanks for having me. Bye. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott Barak Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as

thought for booking and interesting as I did. If you'd like to read the show notes for this episode or here past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot com