Tim Grover || The Victory Mentality

and elite achievers in every field. His latest book is called Winning, The Unforgivable Race to Greatness. Tim, thanks for being on the Psychology Podcast today. This is an honor. Thank you very much. When I wrote this book Winning, I was like okay, and I was I don't know if the publicist or the book published or reached out to you guys, or you reached out to them. And I was like, seriously, they want, they want they want

to talk to me about this. Of course, I was like, okay, well, the mind game, you know it's all about uh you know, what would you say is like in the percentages and all the work you've done that and I know there's the physical game, but early in your career, did you really try to get into the mind of the competitors,

do you're you know? Yes, you know. And one thing when I said, you know, Michael Jordan was my first client, first professional client, i should say, and you know, he would always say how important the minds, that the mind was.

So the part of our training was always to not only train the physical, but once I got to know him better and knew what how to get him to do certain things, and how what his thought process was and how he felt about winning and working and doing all these things, and we incorporated a lot of that stuff into into his into his training. I love that. Well, let's start. Let's start with your with your childhood. Get

we're jumping the gun a little bit here. I want I want you to tell me a little about your upbringing because from what I've read, you said you came to this country with your parents and you witnessed the sacrifice and the determination that they invested in your family. Can you talk a little bit about that. Where did you come from? And tell me a little about your parents,

especially your father. Seems like a really interesting cat. Yeah, so you know, both both my parents, both my parents are from India, so what happened was I have an older brother. He was born in India, and then we all packed up and moved to the UK, and I was born in the UK, and then when I was four. My mom actually left when I was about i'd say

about two or three, about three years old. She came down to the States because she was a nurse practitioner and there was a high demand for nurses in the in the States, so she was able to establish herself here. So basically, my dad raised my brother and I for almost two years, and though when she was established, he

brought we came over with him. And the interesting part about that whole story was, I remember my dad, we got in a cab, we landed, We landed at O'Hare, and I remember getting in a cab headed to the address my mom gave and my and you know, with some pretty big suitcases because we kind of came. We came with everything, and my dad telling the cab driver to stop and we weren't in the like, okay, you know, I'm four, I don't know what's going I don't know

what's going on. And he told the cab driver to stop and let us out right here. And we were still a good three miles from our destination. And my dad just made a game out of it. And you know, he's my dad was a slight individual, not not very not very heavy, not very tall, and back then, remember the luggage didn't have wheels. So he kind of made a game out of it, saying that, hey, listen, you know, I want you guys to see what America is about and see what this great city is, and kind of

made it like a tourist thing. And you know, we'd moved the suitcases a little bit and then stop as we got tired of those suitcases, as as we got tired, and come to find out the reason he told the cab driver to stop because that was all the money he had in his pocket. He didn't he didn't have He didn't have any more money for the cab driver to go to go any farther. And he told you this later on in life. Yeah, he told me this later, told me this later on, and I just you know,

I said, Dad, I got to ask you. So he goes, he goes, let me tell you what happened. He goes, Listen, this is exactly what happened. Was I had I had no I had no more money, and my dad is a was a reaccomplished professor of medicine in back in India. But his education, they said, did not transfer to the teachings in the States. So he said, okay, so he goes what kind of job can you what kind of job can I get? And he ended up getting a job at the University at Northwestern what they called it

was called a degreaser. That was the that was the title and a degreaser's job description. His after you have anatomy classes, you know, you have to you have to dispose of the cadavers. And you know we're talking we're talking back in the late sixties, early or late late sixties.

So his job was and then for people that don't know the menace and the aspect of it, the cadavers are extremely heavy because you know, with their fluids in them and all the femalbehyde and all the other stuff that they use, the chemicals they used to back then. So when you have to dispose them, you just can't put them in a garbage You have to literally considerate them. So his job was to dismantle the cadavers and throw them into the and throw them into the furnace and

keep off the furnace. Now, the interesting part about that whole story is we couldn't afford babysitters, and my mom worked that night. My dad worked at the daytime. So when we were all from school, you know, obviously regulations weren't like they were now. My dad would take us, my brother and I, he would take us to work with him, and so I got to visually see what he was doing, and he said, no matter what happens, you have to be able to provide for your family.

It was this is not the ideal situation for me, but this is what I need to do to provide with my family. And there's certain things, no matter how young you are, that just stick with you. You know, people, you may not have other memories, and you'll know more about this than I will. You know, I don't know how that all works, but you you may not have other memories of what happened when you were younger, but

there's certain moments that you just you just don't forget. Yeah, they're called mnemonic memories, okay, mn E m O And I see. Yeah, so sounds that you have quite a bit of these memonic memories, and they really shaped your values and your whole your whole system even put into place eventually with your your your business. Yeah, well exactly. I always said, there's watching my parents do what they do, how they made time for us, how they sacrificed, how

hard they how hard they worked. You know, we didn't have we didn't have everything, but we had everything we needed and it just kind of that's that's stuck with That stuck with me. You know, people talk about seeing their parents go from from nothing to actually making something. I had two parents that did that. That changed the system of how the culture was, you know, to for my dad to be the first individual to say, hey, I'm not staying in India, you know, to tell his

mom I'm leaving and be the first one. People always call me a rebel for for what I did. Well, I always tell my dad, well, look where I learned it from. I watched you do it. I may ask is he still alive? He is not, he passed. It's gonna be it's going on three years now. Yeah, my condolences, thank you. Yeah, is your mom still alive? Yes? My mom is still alive. Yes, And I mean she must be so proud of what you've become and I mean, did she get like tickets to the Bulls games? You know.

So here's the crazy part about that about that story. So coming back coming from the Indian culture, you have two career choices back then, doctor being one and a doctor being number two. You know, later on they was like, okay, if you want to be a lawyer, you can be a lawyer. Then they then they opened up more to engineering and you know, different things. But back then that that that was. That was it. So when I went to college, like any other college individual, I kind of

had an idea what I wanted to do. And my parents always said, you know, he's he's going to medical school. I told my dad, I said, I don't want to go to medical school. He goes, well, what do you want to do? I said, I want to train professional athletes? And he was like, what is that? He goes where

we go? I don't even know what. I don't even know what that means because obvious time in those years, training was not it hadn't involved like it has now where you have a bunch of you have a lot of professional athletes that have their own trainers and do you know, have their own consultants. And so forth. So this was ground This was groundbreaking for me. And he goes, I'll let you pursue that, but you have to do one thing for me. I said, what's that. He goes,

you must take the interest exam for medical school. I said, no problem, I said, I will take that. So this is how key my dad, my dad was when I first took the exam, I totally bombed it on purpose, on purpose, and and I got the scores I showed my dad. My dad goes, yeah, nice try. He goes, I've already signed you up for the next test. He goes, I knew you were going to I knew you were going to do this. And then I scored fairly high

on the next one. I did get accepted into different, uh different schools, but I still chose not not to go. I still chose not to go in even you know, you said, my mom and dads they're proud, but they were so accustomed to you. You go to work, you have paid vacation, you have insurance, you have a four to oh one k. So for them, that's that's that was success for them in their mind, to know you have something steady, you have income coming in that's how

you take care of your family. With me, it's I don't even know where the next check is coming in, and I like it that way. That's what my that's what my win is, That's what my chase is, to constantly figure out what's next? Where can I where? What other arenas can I win? In Sure, you said in your book that you were the fat kid when you were young, and can you tell me what what changed from being the fat kid? Like how did you work from that into a pretty good basketball player until you

had an injury. I know that you had an injury that kind of put a stop to it, But but what happened in between those two things? Well, so if you've if you've been involved with an Indian family, they love to eat. And when you go to another Indian family, they make sure you eat. So if you visit two or three Indian families over a weekend, every you have to eat in every single place. Otherwise it's it's disrespectful.

And being an Indian back then, food wasn't as plentiful, so it was something that my parents wanted to make sure we had enough of. And and I ate I definitely, I definitely ate the transition came when I went to high school. So when I started it, when I started, and when I started in high school, my transition for the high school that I wanted to go to, the commute was over an hour away, and that it wasn't

a drive. That was taking two buses, taking a bus, taking a train, taking another train, and then taking another bus, another bus to school. So going to school, making the basketball, making the basketball team, having to do my studies come back on public transportation again kind of limited the amount of free time I had and the amount of food that was a food that was available to me. Because your grades could not slip, your grades, your grades could

not could not slip. And I really enjoyed playing basketball, so I got into this. I always kind of worked out, but I got into this nice workout. I got into this nice workout regiment. And in order to be able to be a player on the team and not just sit down, I had to I had to drop I just ended up dropping weight. And I had one of those coaches. Oh I never fore he ran us? Boy did he run us? You have a You have to work out so much, you just you're too tired. But

you just forget me. Just like I don't even want to lift anything in my line. I don't. That was that was his philosophy. What position did you play well? I played point guard. I used to I used to be six feet but through some injuries, now I'm probably close on them. I say five to eleven. Now I'm going to tell you something I don't tell many people on this podcast, but I think you'll get a kick

out of it. So I grew up with Kobe Bryant and was on the basketball team with I was the center in middle school at Balikinwood Middle School, and I didn't I've never grown beyond I thought. I thought I was gonna be NBA. I thought like all this stuff, you know. I I never grew ever again. And then I eventually got cut from the freshman team in high school. Even though Kobe actually was kind enough, he was the he he signed, you know, to let me try out

for the team, and he encouraged me. I didn't get accepted. So I changed into a whole different realm of being a nerd. But I think you get I thought you'd get a kick out of that story. That that is awesome, that is so funny. Yeah, we had I didn't even know we had that in common. Yeah, yeah, now now you know, Bryan, But I got to see him play quite a bit exactly exactly. And you, well, you you contributed to his success even yes, I was fortunate enough

to be able to do that. But I always say, and you know, like from a psychology standpoint, the greater the athlete is, or the greater the individualist, the greater the more successful the CEOs, the more successful the teacher is, the more coachable they are, the more they're willing to learn, the more they're willing to explore things because they know that that chase to win over and over again requires you to be different, requires you to have more knowledge,

more ability, the ability not only to think for yourself, but to understand what others others are telling you. And the top of the top individuals I've worked with athletic and business wise, they are the most coachable people out there. They understand what works for them, what doesn't work for them. They know exactly what they need, they don't know what they need. It's the middle of the road individuals that are constantly want to have discussions with you and want

to do things only their way. Such a good point. I've noticed that too, just in my own coaching of personal coaching. But yeah, I ge you go. You look at the very few teams, professional teams, corporations have trouble with the high high achievers. They don't. It's always the ones in the middle or the ones in the lower that end up causing more distractions than any than anybody else. So you like to you like to work with people who are already at the top, Like, I feel like

that's your preference, Is that right? I enjoy I enjoy that because the challenge for me, the win for me, is to take somebody who's already so elite at what they do and increase that ability. You know, you can take it. You can take an athlete, you can take a business and if they're in mediocrity or average, you

can show pretty good gains in that. But to take an individual who's already or company or CEO that's so elite at what they do and just to be able to show that not even one percent, it's that point all one percent gain in their abilities in their thought process, the way they achieve things. That's the constant cha, that's the conscience challenge for me because I really enjoy the details. And you know, the most successful people you that you deal with, you hear this adage where he says, don't

sweat the small stuff. They sweat everything because the one detail that's not important. Now you say, oh it's not important, maybe the most important to them. Yeah. Uh Well, there's a sort of there's sort of like a winning mentality. And you know, do you ever find there are some people with a victimhood mentality that holds them back from

reaching higher levels of greatness? Like have you or worked with someone or seen someone who like everything is like a like every little setback is like a big you know, they're they're a huge victim of some big, large thing. And then and you see that holding them back. Yeah, And then I usually tell them it's the you have two choices during that during that thing, you can either be have the victim mentality or you can have the victory mentality. No victory, I get it, Just which one?

Which one you want? Which one you want to choose? The victim one is it's easy because it's easy to blame circumstances issues or you know, I wasn't. I didn't have this when I was growing up. I wasn't able. I wasn't able to do this. I wasn't able to do that because there's more people aligned with that information more because there's more there's more support in the in the in the in the victim category. Because most people will tell you it's okay, you'll get another chance, you'll

get so forth. What I always tell my athletes is, if somebody tells you it's going to be okay, are you just settling for okay? Because that's what the victim mentality will sell for. They'll settle for okay. The highest achievers, they don't want anything to be okay. They don't want anything to be fine. They're only accepting great, unstoppable, the winning mentality, the winning mentality, and that's how they keep

thinking and processing information. So they never understand the victim of the victim's mentality, victims mentality because they don't want to be They don't want to be in the middle. There's a lot of comfort from others and from yourself when that comes with the thinking or acting like you are the victim. You're always looking for somebody else to

help you. You're always looking for somebody to pull you along, looking for somebody else to do the work for you, and to the point it's even like somebody to do the actual thinking for you. M yeah, I definitely as we go along today, I would definitely unpack more of the victory mentality because I think that could even be like the title of this podcast episode. I always think in terms of like that's a I got a title for this one. I think it's that would be a

good title. So are you an oly child? By the way, No, I have an older brother, older brother. I was gonna say, is he in his sports at all? No, Well, he's into sports, he's into watching he's into watching sports. But he chose to say fraud. He's he's had he's worked for the federal government for I don't know how many years he's I've lost coum. So he has a stable job. Yeah,

paycheck every two the paycheck every two weeks. Well, he's got the pay vacation, he's got the sick time, he's got the four to one K, he's got the retirement plan. Isn't He's the opposite of you? One hundred percent, complete, complete opposite. That's amazing. Well, you two weren't identical twins, that's for sure. Okay, So I want to This is what I want to know is around nineteen eighty nine, before we get to your work with Michael Jordan and

then that whole career. What I want to understand is your vision as a young man of helping professional athletes. Tell me about this vision you had and how did you get this vision? I mean, like, talk me through nineteen eighty eight, talk me through nineteen eighty seven. I want to know, like the do you know what I'm saying? Talk me through the years right before you know the Pistons in eighty nine inspired you. Yeah, so I fished.

You know, I finished my education is I have a master's degree in exercise science, so a bachelor's degree in kinesiology, which is all related to exercise and working out in body movements and so forth. I had. I knew on my education taught me what to think. This was the book, this is what you do here it is and this is this is how you go along. But I had

no experience. I really I didn't have an experience. So what I did was, once you finished school, there's no way my dad's gonna let me just sit around the house. You got you got, you gotta do something. You gotta find a job. You gotta find a job. So I took a job, and I didn't want The university actually offered me a position, you know, nice pay and everything, but I was like, this is not what I want, This is not what I want to do. So I passed on that and I took a job at a

local health club. The minimum wage there back then was three dollars and thirty five cents. Three dollars in thirty five with a master's degree. Wow. So I took the job because I knew what to think because my school told me what to think, I didn't know how to think.

So what I meant by what I mean by that, and we talk about this and winning quite a bit, is I knew everything from a science standpoint of what athletes, how they should move, what they should do, but I didn't know how to implement my own stuff into it, my own thoughts, my own my own ideas. So that was one of the reasons I took that job in a in a health club so I could become Even though I had the education, I still had to pass the test and wait my turn to become a trainer there.

That when I became a trainer. There, I started to work with individuals and I really started to get the really get results and started to do things that weren't that other individuals hadn't hadn't seen, or they were accustomed to. And then from there I made a transit, you know, I started working Most of the individuals I started training were men. That I ended up working with a woman who had just uh, who had just had a baby.

I ended up getting her in great shape, so that I became the post you know, I became the post nail guy. Hey, this is the person you need to hire. So each transition allowed me to give me the ability of how to think and do things differently. And then I saw this article in the paper where how Michael was tired of taking the physical abuse from the Detroit Pistons. So I was like, oh, you know what, I'm sure they'll find some as you know, there's an opening here.

So what I did was I wrote fourteen letters. There's fifteen there's fifteen players on a basketball team, twelve active. Three they used to they used to be on the on the injured list. And I wrote fourteen letters. Back then, I remember no emails, no cell phones, none of that none of that stuff, no social media, and I sent the letters, put them in the mailbox. The only person I didn't write a letter to was Michael Jordan because I was just like, he's so talented, he's so good.

Why does he Why is he going to work out with somebody that's never worked out with a professional athlete. He found this letter in somebody else's locker, pull the letter out and told the athletic trainer and the team doctor at that time, find out what this guy's about. Find out what this guy's about. So the staff reached out to me. We went back and forth for three months. They put me, They put me through more extensive testing in those three months than I did in my time

in college. And they didn't tell me who I was going to be, who was interested in working with me. So, you know, I'm thinking, I don't know who it is. I'm thinking it's one of the lower end players, and they just he needs some special attention. They want to bring them along. So after three months, they say, hey, we want you to here's the address. We want you to meet the client at this particular location. Okay, it was his house, you know, back then, it was a house.

It was still a nice house. But it didn't have security gates, it didn't have the number twenty three on it. You just can walk up to it and you rang the door. You rang the doorbell. So I walk up to it, I ring the doorbell, and Michael Jordan opens up the door, and indeed the laugh. Michael's ever answered the door for by himself, for himself. How did you feel? Well, you know, unfortunately I was. I'm not a starstruck person.

I was not I was not a star starck and his It's so much easier to find information on Michael than it was any of the other players because he was constantly in the paper. Who's constantly in magazines, he was constantly on TV on interviews, so whether you want to study him or not, it was kind of always

in your face. So just by watching that, I was kind of like, Okay, I know what's what he needs, what he needs to play, how he can excel himself even more So, we sat down and we went back and fourth with a bunch of questions for about almost forty forty five minutes, and he just said, this doesn't sound right, and I said, this doesn't get any writer. I said, give me thirty days and see what I see. Let's see what happens. And thirty days turned into fift

into fifteen years. Wow, he was twenty six years old at the time. I just I just did the Google the goal Google search. So really, young man. Actually, there's a part of the story. I think it's really kind of cool. You realized when you first met you realized that you were not you were wearing what Converse shoes And that's a that's who. That's a no. No, that's

a serious nose, especially since he won. The two shoe companies he wanted to do to wear was Adidas and or Converse, and both of them said, no, we're not going to invest in you because we don't think so you're gonna you're going to be one of those players. So Nike was actually his third choice. So they even something funny about that. So when I had the shoes on it, when Michael Jordan opened up the door, I'm literally trying to take the shoes while I'm looking at him.

I'm trying to take the shoes off with my with my feet so he doesn't look down because I know. And I eventually did take the shoes off before I went in the house. He got big old holes in my socks. So I take the socks and I turned I turned him around, so the holes are actually on the bottom. So now you have the holes on the bottom, but you have the dirty socks. Yeah, the dirty part on the top. I'm like, well, you know what, if he's looking at my socks, then he's not understanding what

I'm saying. He's not understanding what I'm trying to put put in front of him. So I need him to notice. I need him to notice me from the neck up, not from the neck down. Yeah. And do you think he ever he ever saw those those shoes, Oh, lady, when I when I left the house, he looked at the sho he did look at the shoes. You looked at the shoes down and he goes, never again, Are you serious? Yeah, he said, never again. I got you, Hilario,

that's absolutely larious. That's a great story. Now he said, of you, he said quote, he said, he's this is him referring to you. Tim Grover is the biggest asshole you ever meet. But he knows his stuff. You said, you really can't ask for a better compliment from Michael Jordan's and Michael Jordan's eyes, is being an asshole? Does that have kind of a maybe a different meaning, Like does that mean like you're kind of like you're a badass motherfucker? Like what what? What do you think he

meant by that? Yeah, it means like you're really confident and you're really confident in your abilities. You know what you're you know what you're doing, you know what you're doing, and you're not all going to always be a yes person.

You know, when you have these superson when you have these superstar athletes, you know, everyone around them becomes a yes person, a yes person, a yes person, and when you know, when you're the asshole, you you have to disagree, you have to say, no, this isn't right, this is what this is, this is what this is, how it needs to be, this is why we're doing this, And you know, have a nice friendly confrontation as friendly as you can get with him and not give in to

what you know is right and be able to prove it that way. So when he said that, when he said he's the big, biggest asshole, meaning he's not a pushover, He's gonna he's gonna he's going to tell you exactly. He's not going to tell you what you want to hear. He's going to tell you what you need to hear. And most athletes and even CEOs and and you know, high performing individuals, they have a lot of friends. They

don't need friends, they need allies. Because friends tell you what you what you want, what you want to hear. Allies tell you what you need to hear. And a lot of times your greatest allies aren't even in your friends circle, because they show up when they need to show up. They tell you what it is. They they can point out where the things are you get you may get labeled as an asshole or whatever. I always say, I'm that family member that nobody wants in the family,

but everybody needs. Well, I mean I I do have some pretty close friends who keep it keep it real with me. So maybe you know what you're for, your for, your for You're fortunate that you're fortunate to have those individuals. And I would even put them in I wouldn't even call them friends, I would call them. I would call them out. Yeah. Interesting, because allies show up. Allies show up no matter what kind of mood you're in, what's going on in your what's going on in your what's

going on in your life. They support you through the good, they support you through the bad, they support you through the indifferent. And not only do they support you, they counsel you and they educate you and figure out ways to make you better. They don't settle for what's okay or this is fine. They understand there's more. There's more to that, and that's why you have that long lasting friendship with those individuals. Yeah, I love that. Now you

were there through the whole Bulls dynasty. I just can't you know, my my twelve year old self is like, you know, like going crazy right now because I think I grew up in Philadelphia, you know, but I'd like to think I was the biggest Bulls fan in the world, you know. I mean, me and my friend Olvi, we'd go,

we'd be like everything. You know. In fact, there's there's even this this funny story where I was like, wait, we followed the Bulls team bus afterwards because I wanted to meet Michael Jordan and and and Michael Jordan actually did you know he was like really right in front of me. And I was so concerned that my friend Alvi wasn't there to see it that I that I was like, wait, wait, wait here, my friend Alvi's got to meet you, and Michael's like, man, I can't wait

here all day, brother or whatever. And it's so funny because I laughed with my friend about that, because I really cared about my friend. You know, maybe in that moment I should have been more an ally than a friend. I missed a chance. I missed a chance to talk to Michael Jordan. But anyway, you were there during this dynasty. You were front row seat. You were even like you know the whole like flu controversy. You were in that hotel room when they delivered the pizza. I mean you right,

you even you got the pizza. Good thing you didn't eat the pizza. It's a good thing you didn't eat it. Yes, you know the homework on this, like I do. I do a lot of I do a lot of preparation for my guests, and I read, as Michael would say, evidently that's his work. Oh nice, nice, nice. I read every word of you, of your new book and watched interviews with you. So that is really interesting. There's so

many different kinds of like little nuggets and stories. That wouldn't serve the psychology podcast, but just my twelve year old g itself, who's like, I want to know what it was like to be their front row seat. Can you just give me look an overall paint and overall impression of what it was like to be there during one of the most exciting winning moments in the history of sports. I mean, it's kind of it's kind of

it's kind of undest describable. I mean, the things that you would just you taught from a psychological standpoint, Being able to watch one of the greatest athletes, if not the greatest athletes of our time, handle all these different different things and knowing what he had to go through, not only physically but mentally, and how he used everything

as a learning process and as a fuel process. You know, in the book or man, I don't know if it's in the book where I've told his story, you know, Michael, they he was actually allowed to pull into the arena because of all the fanfare and all this other stuff. He would always stop. He would always pull the car outside because there were fans that were lined up all the way around the gate, and he would always say,

never drove it. Never showed up in a dirty car, was impeccably dressed well, and he would literally get out of his car and wave to all the and wave to the people around them because it was like, this might be the only opportunity these individuals get a chance

to see me. They may never be able to afford a ticket, never be able to afford a ticket in the game, right, and this is as close as if I can brighten up their moment for that moment, and to think about to have to understand that mentality going into every single game, you know, every game to him, it wasn't just a game, it was the game. It

was the game. I mean the one thing I always said, Michael, every single game he played, whether it was preseason, playoffs, middle he always gave us aha moment you were like wow. He was just like and that for me, I got so spoiled. I would see those things so frequently that you kind of just get you kind of like you get used to it, you get kind of you kind of get spoiled, and you get spoiled from it. And then occasionally he would just do something that you were

just like wow. But for me, it wasn't as enjoyable as a fan because I was watching with such intensity to see how he was moving, how you know, to watch the the way his ankle was positioned, the way his knee, how his hips were, how his fingers. I was paying attention to stuff that other individuals just wouldn't

just wouldn't pay attention, wouldn't pay attention to. So it's kind of difficult to sit there and watch the watch the game as a fan and kind And then when somebody when he would do something excited, which was on a regular basis, the people in front of you would stand up. I'm like, sit down, sit down, I got, I got because when he scored, everybody collapse when he

scores the basket. But I need to see from a performance standpoint, well when he scored the basket, did he pivot right or did he pivot left after the basket, because I need to have those calculations down because I can't determine tomorrow's workout until I have all I have all those d I have all those details towed. And you know, just to see the best way to describe it is, you weren't at a basketball game. You were

at a performance. It was like you wered, It was like you were at a like a you know, a Broadway play or the opera or the theater or something, and you were coming to see this unbelievable person and this unbelievable performer do do his thing. And back then, if you looked at the court side seats, you know people they were they would literally dress up. On the weekends, they would literally dress up. If it's a night out of town, you would see you would see individuals in

their business suits. You would see the young ladies dressed up, you know, in their in their in their gowns and their dresses and everything. It was like it was like literally going to a performance. I don't know the last time he went to a game, but this was the funniest part about it. At halftime, by the time the second half started, everybody was in their seats, everybody because they did not want to miss They did not want

to miss a moment. Now you go to it. Now you go to arena, people are hanging out and they're well before the pandemic. They're hanging out in the tunnels. You know, they're waiting to use the bathroom, they're waiting to do all all this other stuff. Back then, everybody was in their seats because they just didn't know what was gonna go next, and the constant flash of you know, and before every game, they used to have this announcement that say no flash cameras please. Yeah right, yeah right,

yeah yeah. I went to some of those games, and I never went to a Chicag game, and I'm remissed about that. But when he came to play Philly, you know I was. I was there in the in the nosebleed sections watching Jordan. Yeah yeah, oh though they talk about an intense rivalry over there. Yeah yeah. Uh. Barkley, Yes, one of his favor one of his favorite, one of his favorite play, one of his favorite places to play. Absolutely, because you know, everybody compared him to Julius Irving, doctor

J and doctor J Ban from Philly. So he was like, you know, this is like I have to pay respect to the man that they're compared that they're comparing to. Not only do I have to pay respect to that man, I have to I'll do what that man did on that court. And what Julius Irving did was very special. Yeah, very special for sure. Okay, let's talk about Kobe a little bit. Where did you first meet Kobe and I think it was like a fish store or something, a sushi store. Yes, So I started with him in two

thousand and seven. He had reached out to Michael and said, hey, listen, I'm having I'm having severe issues with my knees. And he goes, I just don't know what to do. I've tried everything, and you know, I need I need some I need some help. Here he goes, I just can't continue at that. I can't continue to play with how how bad my knees are hurting. And Michael and I

had already finished our work. He was he was in the retirement, and he just said, he goes, you know, give my guy a call, you know, give give girl a call. And what you described early that was that was what he told. Kobe was like, he said, well, tell me about tell me about Grover. He said, listen, Grover really knows his stuff, but he's the biggest asshole you'll you'll ever meet. Well, Kobe and MJ had the same mentality, so he kind of he kind of understood.

So I flew out to California and right near the restaurant there was a you know, a little sushi place to go get something, go and get something eat. So I sit down there. I'm sitting in there with my family and we go down. We were eating something and here Lily Kobe Bryant comes walking in to pick up a takeout order, and I just and I looked, and I said, and I introduced. We had met before briefly, and he knew, he knew of me, and he member the face. So I introduced him. I introduced myself. Hey,

and you know, welcome and all this other. But that was our that was our first meeting. And he go and he goes, when you read, when you read, he goes, let me know when you're ready to start. I said, we can start tonight if you want to. He goes, we'll start, We'll start tomorrow. We'll start tomorrow. I said, that's that's perfect. And this is a story that didn't make it into the book. So he said, I'll see you at three thirty. Right. Everybody else would have assumed

it was three thirty pm. But just like you did your homework on me, I did my homework on him, and I knew it was three thirty am. And that was the test. That was that was Kobe testing me. That was Kobe testing me. If I and if I would have showed up at three thirty, he would have sent me home. Because one of the things in the interview that when word got out that we were working, we were working together, one of the reporters asked him and said, well, hey, you know, you hired MJ's train

of how's you know, how's it going? He goes, He ain't done shit for me yet? I don't know, really, yeah, he goes, He goes, Yeah, I know what he's done for MJ. And when he's done for other individuals, but those that's for those individuals. What is he What has he done for me? And you know that's that's kind of like the psychology of the next win? All right, when you get that win, what what is that next win going to do for you? And how are you

going to how are you going to get there? Just because you did it one way or you did it a different way or previous way for a different company or an individual, doesn't mean that's going to work for that individual. Yeah, you know, because the psychology of the the way they think, the way they the way they move, the way they interact is totally is totally different. And I was actually honored that he said that because I didn't want him to go off of what I did

in the past. I wanted him to go off of the results that I got for him. Yeah, well you got him results. Yeah. Well tell me about the phone call you had with him one week before he died. Oh, this is this is this is a tough This was a little tough. So, you know, the All Star Game was going to be in Chicago, and we had he had already transitioned from from basketball into his life into

his life of you know, entrepreneurship, author, scriptwriter. You know, he'd already won an oscar, won numerous awards for his children's series of his books, and he was, you know, he was fully invested in the business, the business world. So we texted back and forth, and you know, we always said we're going to see each other there. Yeah, but you know, his schedule was busy, I was busy,

and it never kind of happened. But we made plans because he was going to come, he was going to come to ship, he was going to come to Chicago for some for some business during during office. We had made plans to get to get together and it never happened. It's unimaginable isn't it. Yeah, And even when I got the news, I was like this, you know, I'm thinking

this is fake news, this is something else. And then other people reached out to me, and people that were close to him and you know, different people that was like, no, this is this is real, This is real, and it didn't literally probably three days later, that's when it kind of finally hit me, you know, because with him, you'd always be like, he's going to find a way to beat this. It's just this is right, it isn't true.

And then three days later that's what it's like. Yeah, it really hit me hard, and it's still hard for me to talk about. It's still really difficult. You know. One of the things that we talk about in the book is I used to always tell him we don't have time. We don't have time, meaning, you know, we got to keep moving, We got to keep pushing forward, we got to keep being better than the next being better than the next person. And I sit back and I think to myself, boy, I wish I was wrong. Boy,

I wish I was wrong. Did you did you talk to him on the phone? Did you get a chance to the week before? Yeah? Just it was very brief. There are a lot of the communications were text every now and then. But then I would tell him I would be like, just pick up the phone, because you know, people get distracted while they're texting. You can be doing something else. And plus it's so much easier when you just get the communication and real quick. I just you know,

it's like, hey, co KB, pick up the phone. I used to call him Bean, that's his middle name, to Bean, pick up the phone, all right. And he picked up the phone, and then you know, we chatted. We chatted for a little bit and said hey, listen and what you know in the line with books says what are you doing? He goes, man, I'm chasing that next win, just like you always always always chasing, always chasing the next win. Yeah, I have I have a real Uh. First of all, I just want to say I'm really

sorry that you guys. You know, I'm sorry for everyone. I'm sorry for his family. I'm sorry you guys never got a chance to have that meeting. I know it's really hard for you, and I really appreciate you talking about it with me. He touched so many people, you know, and even all of our high school friends. We were so upset. Yeah, whether you liked him or not. Yeah, you had to respect what he did. You had to respect his mentality, you have to respect his work ethic,

you have to respect his results. So this, like I said earlier, it's not yet. You don't have to like, you don't have to like these guys. You know, everybody has their favorites, and they have their fans and so forth. I mean, they look at you're in Philadelphia when he came back for that game, and they boot him like his home, like his hometown, you know, stuff like stuff like that. Stuff like that hurts. But he gave everyone

something to respect about him. You know, people always say that, you know, you need to respect me, well you I always say, well, you need to give me something to respect. No one can say that he did not give each individual something to respect about him. Yeah, for sure. I want to read a quote that you that you said about winning. You said, I've seen winning in all its glorious generosity and all it's excruciating cruelty. One day it

wears a halo, the next day it is fangs. So if you kind of sign up for the winning business, do you kind of have to also just accept that coming along for the ride, are going to be these these real lows of your of the quest. You know, there's going to be these moments where you feel like you're not winning at all. Even yes, that's why it's called the Unforgived. That's why the book is called the Unforgiving Race, because it's it's it's it is unforgiving. It's unforgiving.

You know, everybody sees. One of the reasons I wrote this book is the highest achievers at the top, they cherish the halo moments, but they understand the win came when winning showed up with the fangs. That's what allowed them to achieve, what allowed them to enjoy rejoice in the win in the halo parts, and they understand, you have you don't have control over what winning is going to wear on that particular minute, that particular hour, that

particular day. You must be ready and prepared for whatever it's going to throw at you. And it is going to throw everything at you. It's going to throw everything at you. And the individuals that can relish and understand both and know what it takes to deal with both aspects. Everything. You have your up, you have your down, you have your right side, you have your left side. A car has a gas, it has a break, there's a goal, there's a there, there's a there's a stop. So why

shouldn't winning accept just one of those things. You have to accept it's going to show up with both of those. And when the pandemic came came through, it wore the fangs for a long time. Mm hmm sure. And that's a lot of stuff with what you said earlier about the victim mentality, is that that the victim mentality is they don't know how, they don't know how to deal with the thanks. They're looking they want to get to

the halo, but they've never dealt with the fangs. A lot of people learned how to deal with thangs this past year, that's for sure. It isn't so true, so true, And for a lot of people that was the first experience of the thanks, like real thanks for sure. Yeah, this isn't this, This isn't baby teeth. These are these are like saber tooth tiger, like you go back into the back into the dinosaur days. It's that. Yeah, it's coming in on like stuff that you can't even have met,

you can't even see. Yeah, this is why I love the psychological literature on what's called post traumatic growth. I think you would really like that that work in the field of positive psychology. Are you Are you aware of the field of positive psychology? Do you what? I'm sorry? Are you aware of the field of positive psychology? Do you? Do you read any about this literature? Read? I read

tons of it. I read tons of it. And what I did was, I mean, I use a lot of that stuff in my in my when I train my business individuals, when I trained when I train my when I trained my when I trained my athletes. But again, I have to integrate some of my own learn my own teachings, my own learning, my own education, what I've learned from my experiences, and fit and figure around the puzzle that has many many missing pieces. Yeah, that's that's

that's great. So what's the difference between competing and winning? So I always say this, Everyone everybody knows how to compete, you know, every everybody knows everyone knows how to compete, you know. So you compete for things all the time in your in your daily life. Everybody you're going for this, You're going for that, you can you can go. I'm a I'm a competitor. Everyone says I'm a competitor. Most individuals are a competitor. You don't do this part. You

don't do this podcast just for fun. You're your competitives like I gotta. You know, there's other podcasts that are out there like this that are in my category. Listen, I gotta. I got to compete against them every single day, all right. But people stop at competition. They stop when they they stop at competing. And that's one of the big quotes that Michael excuse me that Kobe always all right, don't rest in the middle, rest at the end. Yeah, competitors,

people that compete, they rest in the middle. People that win rest at the end. Briefly, Yeah, I think that's really profound. But you know, I do it is. It's good to love what you do when you're even if you want to win. I mean, I do love this podcast. I love I have an intrinsic love for it. I just happen to be the number one psychology podcast in the world. But you know, like that's just oh, you just don't happen. Yeah, there's something like that just doesn't happen.

You can happen to slip and fall on some ice. You could happen to find some loose change on the ground, all right, You don't happen to fall into the number one. This is not a lottery. But let me ask you something, because I will, I want to think this through with you. I didn't My goal wasn't to win, and I'm very happy that it's done so well. Right, But I was

driven by craft. I was driven by mastery, by wanting to engage in and with other psychologists and other intellectuals and people and really get into the science of psychology and every kind of direction. And then that kind of resonated with people. Well did not kind of it? Did you know? So it is winning, Winning doesn't always have to be the primary goal in order to win, right is that right? No, No, it's not. You know what I said. Listen, it's not about the glory. It's not

about the payday. Winning is about the obstacles and challenges and the pains you go through to get to winning. And you know what, and you have to go through those things. Somebody else may get the win, right, somebody may, I'll somebody who doesn't work as hard as you do ends up getting the win, all right, Somebody who is as qualified for a job they end up getting. They end up they end up getting the win. So the winning is about going through the different obstacles. It's that

it's not about the it's not about the glamor. It's about the grit. It's about grinding for something that you want to take form of the way you wanted to take form. And that's what you that's what you did. You said, hell, hey listen, I'm gonna put this podcast together and this is the different people I'm going to study and interview and educate myself in a different format. So what you were doing is you were grinding, but you knew what the form of your end result was

to look. Like most people just grind, and what happens if you just constantly I hate this when people says, man, I'm grinding, I'm grinding, But what are you grinding for? Because if you const keep grinding something, what do you end up with? You end up with dust, you end up with nothing. Well, it's just like we've all bet, we've all bet to different parties, different events, and you've seen,

you know, these fantastic ice ice sculptures. Well that if sculpture starts off as just a block that has no it's a square or a circle, or you know, whatever, whatever it may be. And you chip away into those things. And once you chip away at those things, you can see what winning, what winning looks like. And then when you went through that whole process and the process was required. You know, there's an adage where people always say, you know, you know, you got to love the process. I disagree

with that. The process is required, it's required. You can't get through wherever you need to get through without the process. Now, the end result, which is winning, that's not guaranteed, but you must do the process. You must and there's not's not a single individual I know that loved one hundred percent about every single process they had to do to get to that end, to get to that end result. But you still have to do it. You know when

you played back listen, you played basketball. I played basketball. You have to do the wind spreads, you have to be in shape, you have to be able to run. Yeah. Those are not fun. No, no, they're not fun. And I'm going to read a quote of yours that I think relates to a lot of what you're saying. You said, you can be the kindest, most gentle person in the world and still be competitive in every way. This is

about quiet desire. I actually really like that phrase quiet desire, hunger, adrenaline, pain, fatigue, envy, pressure, so much pressure. I think that relates to what you're saying, what I would like you did, just to think about it. You know, you didn't go through The pressure is up in here. You know, the pressure to win, the pressure to succeed. It's it's it's all mindset. It's up and it's up and here you know winning. And this book and what what I'm trying to pass isn't just about athletes.

It's about all of us. It's the mental process of what you have to go through before you even get in the race. And you went through the whole process and understood of what it was going to take. Now then you said, you know what, Now I'm about to get in this unforgiving race, and this race is going to be unforgiving. I don't know if I'm gonna win. I have no idea if I'm not gonna win. But guess what if you never got in this race, you had no chance of winning. Yeah, my grandmama always you

say nothing venture, nothing gained. But let me let me put you in something for a second, because I want to get your thoughts on this. Like, when I hear the word winning, I tend to think of something like a zero sum kind of thing, where like, in order for me to win, people have some other people have

to lose. What if some people you know, what if some people's goal, you know, their their sense of winning is to like uplift as many people as possible, Like they're not in this like sports kind of mentality about winning. What could what could winning look like? You know, as you define it in other fields where it might not be so obvious that that word is. You know, like if you've started a nonprofit and you want to like your winning is helping kids in Africa, you know, like

what does that look like? You know? Does it always have to be zero sum in some way that you're you're tearing down a competitor? Does that question make sense? Yeah? It does, it does. It does make sense. So that's the when you can uplift other individuals in a in a uh, in winning, that's the ultimate, that's the ultimate women And but in order to do that, yeah, yeah, in order to do that, you have to be a little bit selfish. And that's the part that people don't understand.

You have to take care of self. You you know, if you look, if you look at selfish, all right, people look at that as a bad as a bad word, but they love to give different twists to it, you know, they love to give the you know, it's just like all right, me time, m hm hm right, that's selfish, all right, that's that's something you're doing for self all right. You know my man cave. That's like leave leave me, leave me alone. That's not you know, boys and girls

night out, those things lead. When you explain people selfish in that way, it's acceptable. But when you in order to take care of others, in order to take care of your teammates, in order to take care of then the nonprofit, in order for other people to win, you got to take care of yourself. You got to be a little selfish on yourself, and that allows you to give more to other individuals. The more you have of yourself physically and mentally, the more ability you have to

give others. And the way Kobe described winning was he said winning is everything. And what did he mean by that? How do you feel when you win? When you have the sensation of a win. You're like, Okay, even in a movie, you watch a movie or whatever, there's this U four feeling when your kids win. Same feeling when your family wins your same feeling when your friends win.

Same feeling when your allies win. Same feeling when the kids that you are having the nonprofit for and you get to see them smile, their win is their win? Is your win? M You don't have to always tear down the individual the ind the individuals to get that win, but you have to understand that winning has a different language than what everybody else speaks. Thank you so much for that clarification. I've been willing to ask you that question, so thanks for asking that. Can you tell me a

little bit what you're up to these days? You know? What? What? What? What fires you up the most right now in your life? What you know? When we first wrote the book Relentless, a lot of the stuff that we the media stuff different than we talked to was more sports was more sports related. What this book has done is being able to open up doors and being able to speak the individuals like yourself and get the word out of my lessons, my teachings. This is what I want this is what

I want to do now. I want to be able to give what I saw and what I lived through and what I've experienced and what I've learned to other individuals and say, hey, it's not all about the sparkles, it's not all about the sprinkles. This is what it. This is what it. This is what it takes to get into the race to win. And your definition of winning could be completely different than anybody else's. I mean,

I'm still in the I'm still in the line. I still do consulting for a lot of professional athletes and a lot of organizations. I do consulting for tons of businesses, very high level CEOs, And to watch them win, yeah, excites me. I mean that was the biggest thing. To just see my athletes, what they went through for them to get that moment and it was just a brief

moment of win. To watch other individuals to win to what I want to be able to see more people understand their definition of winning and what winning means, to what winning means to them, and it's different for every individual out there. It's beautiful. I feel like I feel like I see you Tim grogor You're you're you're you are, You're a tough guy. But there's also this, uh, this side of you that this this emotional, tender side of you.

Dare I say that wants to help people realize their full potential and that makes you feel really inspired and uh and and good. So I see you. Thank you. Know, we get individuals all the time. So you know your talk or your book or something, you know it changed, It changed my life. And I was telling these in the I didn't change your life. You changed your life. You actually change. You took the action, You changed your thought process, you changed your mindset. You change your mind

you pay change your mindset. We may have assisted in help and gave you some clarity, but none of my books tell you what to do right. You've been your whole life, people have been telling you what to do. Psychology is about doing what you do, what makes you successful, What lights your what lights your fire, what gives you clarity up in here and nobody can give you that. They can explain it, how other individuals do it, how this individual do it, how this individual did, But you

still have to add. You can have you can build a whole cupcake, but you still have to add the frosting and the sprinkles in order to get that and to get that desired taste of winning that you want. Let's let's end there today, Tim Man, thank you so much for chatting with me today on the Psychology Podcast. I truly wish you all the best in this book tour and with your with your business and helping others. You're not done helping. You're not not done helping people.

I'm not I'm not Scott again. Thank you, listen, Thank you so much. You have no idea this is This isn't an honor for me to do this. Not one because it's a completely different avenue that I'm accustomed to. And I won't even say two because you're not to your number one one to be a guest on the number one podcast in the world. Yeah, yeah, thank you, Thank you, Tim. Thanks for listening to this episode of

the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology Podcast dot com. Also, if you'd prefer a completely ad free experience, I'm gonna like early access to new episodes, you can join us at patreon dot com. Slash Psych Podcast, thanks for being such a great supporter of the show and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.