Tal Ben-Shahar || The Science of Happiness

been translated into more than twenty five languages. Tall is the founder of Happiness Studies Academy, an online program that provides the knowledge and the tools to generate happiness for individuals and school communities. Tall so so good we could finally arrange this chat. Yeah, I'm so good to be here as Scott. You're a really interesting cat, you know that, looking into your background and everything. What did my wife tell you to say that? No, that's the opinion I

formulated based on my research of your entire life. And you know, I dug up some stuff, Tall, I dug up some stuff from your past, So this is interesting. Prior pursuing teaching in psychology, you were on the professional squash circuit until you experienced a career ending injury. Is that right? That is correct? You know, Scott, I remember when I was sixteen having the following thoughts. I thought to myself, what would I be doing when I can

no longer play squash? It was not one of the but the central element in my life, and I resolved them to become a squash coach once I retired. Unfortunately, I did have when I was twenty one and almost twenty two, I did have a career ending injury, and that led me on a very different path. Oh yeah, but or was it a very different path? You know?

I read some of these really interesting books, like Michael Murphy, you know, the founder of vessel and he's write a book about golf, you know, and how can we to transcendent experiences? You know, I'm wondering. You know, in your squash days, did you experience inner happiness? You know, on the squash court? Maybe it's not as disconnected as we think. Yeah, no, you know, you're right, And I often think about, I don't know if you remember the book All I needed

to Learn, All I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Well, I often think that all I needed to learn or no, I learned from the squash court. So yeah, there are many parallels and even and they are not indirect links. So even you know, my thinking about happiness today has a lot to do with my squash experience in that

I was actually generally not happy. I mean, I felt a sense of meaning and purpose, but I had a constant not in my stomach, and I felt stressed, and I thought that winning tournaments, fulfilling, you know, reaching certain milestones objectives would make me happy. That I won a few tournaments, and I was happy, but just for a very short period of time. And it was the first

time when I thought about it. I mean, the thought wasn't formulated, but you know, I realized that happiness is about much more than just reaching milestones attaining goals, and it was much more than about success. Well, you know, you didn't go directly from squash player to Harvard. You also worked at a shipping company. Is that right as well? Yeah,

that is great. There was my first my first job during college and after college, and the reason I got it was because the owner of the company was a squash player, and I think, I mean, I realized later on that he wanted a squash coach more than anything else.

But you know, got me to do some fascinating work and to stay in that, and I stayed in ended up staying that company for quite a few years and learning a lot because you know, I spent a lot of time on ships, and on ship you know, you're sailing. There were cargo ships, so you know, you're sailing with a group of you know, twenty eight thirty men from ten countries. That's a lot of men. That's my first thoughts. A lot of men, a lot of countries. It's a

sort of a microcosm. And I learned so much about but myself being on those on those ships, as well as about human nature and about different cultures. So it was really a formative experience on so many on so many levels. So so how did you end up at Harvard, you know, teaching a course that ended up becoming one

of the most popular courses at Harvard's in Harvard's history. Yeah, so, you know it was I think like most personal stories, you know, there's an element of of desire and planning, and then there is also an element of luck fortune.

And you know, for me, given that I wasn't happy, I decided to switch my major, which was initially computer science at Harvard Psychology as as an undergrad, and then when I went back as a graduate student, then I had the real fortune of working with Professor Phillip Stone, who had started working with Marty Seligman in creating the

new positive psychology. So in nineteen ninety nine, Philip Stone was one of the keynote speakers at the very first Positive Psychology summit and he took me along with him. So I attended that and it was love at first sight. So that and then I was a Professor Stone's teaching assistant for six years. It was and more than that, you know, he was my mentor. I was his apprentice

for those six years. And when I graduated in with with my PhD, he was about to retire and he asked me whether I wanted to take over his course. He had been teaching positive psychology, and yeah, And I thought for about I think it was three or billiseconds, I'm not sure, and I said yes. And so I took over his class and started to and I'm still teaching his class, following in his very big footsteps. You teach it now with your happiness studies academies, right so

I'm teaching it through the Happiness Studies Academy. Over the years of expanded beyond positive psychology, and today I integrate philosophy and economics and neuroscience and literature and film all into this field of happiness because you know, so many people had so many wise things to say about the good life, not just positive psychologists and not just psychologists. Yeah. I love that you take a really broad perspective. Do you ever find that, like your the philosophy hunterdicts the

science and then you're like, what do I do happening? Yes? Actually often, And this is why I do love science. You know, I come from computer science background. My first first book that I read, you know, other than cliff Notes, Don't tell my high school teacher was you know, when I was twenty three. Because I was always into the sciences and I'm still very much into the sciences. Though, I think the sciences and the humanities can and should

inform each other. So when philosophers disagree, you know, when there's a conflict between Aristotle and Confucius, two giants, you know, says science can be that can be the arbiter. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting science being the arb science being the referee. That's kind of a funny, I thought. I don't know why it's funny, but it is. Yeah, So this time period, you know what an amazing time that was for you at Harvard. You know, I just want to like zoom

in on that time. You know, put the field, the whole field of positive ecology was just emerging. There wasn't that much science yet on the science of happened. There was a Deaner's work, you know, life sat I'm trying to think, like nineteen ninety nine, like what was that? What was there in the psychological literature? You know, you had to kind of be a mcguiver a bit of do you know what I'm saying? Like there was you know, and bringing together all these different perspectives into a coherent

whole that inspired you know, these kids. I still talk to their adults now, but those that were in your class, you know, and like uniformly, they're all like, it changed my life. So you did something that right there? Yeah, you know so few things. First of all, now, I'm I'm a big believer in Carl Rogers's claimed that what

is most personal is most general. So when I got together that class, I asked myself, what would I have wanted to learn when I was a student, you know, sitting there in their seat, Because I struggled through through college and I knew when I was older that certain things would have helped me, so I integrated them into the class. So that's the first thing. Now the second thing, you know, yeah, we are talking about you know, nineteen

ninety nine, early two thousands. Positive psychology is a new and emerging field, and at the same time it's an old, in fact, ancient field because every startle talked about the good life and had so much to say about it. And fast forward to the twentieth century. You may have heard of a psychologist by the name of Abraham Maslow. Yes, I think my audience has heard that name nauseum on

this podcast. And in fact, the textbook that I used for my Tortoise Psychology of Being was it to psycho Psychology of Being, Oh my gosh, because you know, I mean, you know, Maslow wrote a chapter called Towards a Positive Psychologist, so he had a lot to say, still does have a lot to say about it, and in fact, you know, I thought about it recently. I think that there is an advantage in being at the at the onset or at the beginning of a field when there isn't that

much content because it's exciting. It forces one to be creative, and it forces one to be eclectic, and there is a lot of value in eclecticism. There's a lot of value in in the need to look outside your field. And you know, if if a field has too many good answers, then there is no incentive to venture out. And I think venturing out is so important for and again, whether you're in a new field or in an old field, venturing out is so important because that's when you become creative, innovative.

It's just easier to do when you have no choice. I think that's a really really good point. Well, there was all sorts of interesting things there, you know, people who ended up becoming big shots. There are three I want to just mention three three people. So, first of all, is it true Adam Grant was one of your all time favorite students at Harvard the organizational psychologist to give the author a give and take and lots of other bestsellers. Yeah,

what was he like as an undergraduate? Give us some gossip? Hey, Yeah, he was Adam Grant many many Mini Adam. Yeah, he helped me a lot, I must say, taught me a lot. That is so cool. Yeah yeah, so you know, so you know he was my student, and that was the second one I was gonna mention. Yeah, so Lea Crumb was your t A, one of your tas, right, and

now she is. She was my advisy and later became my t A. And so just for our listeners, Aliah Crumb is a professor now at Stanford University doing really awesome work on the possible effect and mindset and how mindset can affect our stress. I think of the nature she's she's a superstar now. And then now also that you had Sean Aker was a TA of yours as well. Yes, indeed, so Sean was the head teaching fellow who who masterfully managed the class. He also taught. He was already then

an extraordinary teacher. And I must say it was so, you know, so a bit of the history of the class of the first year. I had just a handful of students, you know, eight to be precise, you only had eight students here for serious Yes, but I'm actually not telling you the whole truth here because two dropped out so that leaves with six. I bet they're regretting it now. I bet those two are regretting it now. Yeah,

I hope. So they really hurt me then, you know, to lose what is it, twenty five percent of the class in one felson. That wasn't easy. But you know, what doesn't kill you makes you strong. And it did

and it did. Yeah, you're living proof of that. And the funny year it was the class grew and I had, you know, a couple of hundred, and then the third year much more than that, and and and it it was like running a mini organization, and you know, with twenty teaching assistance and and and you know, so many students and I have you know, the I couldn't have done it obviously without without Seawan, without you know, Jeff Paroti and uh and and so many other tas were

teaching positive psychology today. And you know, we're still in touch. And it was a wonderful, beautiful time in your life. I'm sure you feel very nostalgic when you think about that time period of your life. Well, I was wondering, and maybe this should have been my first question, but how do you define happiness? I think it's a really

important question. Yeah, it is an important question and not an easy one because there are so many definitions of happiness, and in fact, many people just say, well, happiness is like beauty. You know it when you see it, or you know it when you experience it. Cop out, cop out answer, but but but I but I do think it is important to define happiness, So I will not cop out of that one. Because when when we understand what it is and we're more like to to find it,

you know, it reminds me. Sorry, I'm not coping out, I'm just deviating. We've talked before about this. You have a definition. But the Alice in Wonderland, you know, so when Alice meets the cheshire Cat, one of my favorite parts, and she's said she says to the cheshire Cat, which way should I go? And he said, as well, that depends where you want to get to, and she says, well, you know, it doesn't matter where I get to, And

then well, it doesn't matter which way you go. So you know, if we want to get you happiness, we need to define it so that we know where we're going. So I see happiness as comprising five elements. They are the spire elements. This is the acronym. The first elements of the element of happiness is spiritual wellbeing. Spiritual wellbeing is about having a sense of meaning and purpose. It's about being present, being mindful in the here and now.

Physical well being, the second element of a spire, is about nutrition. It's about exercise, it's about rest, sleep, recovery, it's about touch. And then there is intellectual wellbeing. Intellectual well being is about curiosity. You know, this is one of my favorite all time studies. Curious people actually live longer,

all other things being equal. Oh yeah, Todd fashions work a little bit, shows that rights work, Carmeli's work, and you know, I find that fascinating because you know, they say curiosity kills the cat, but it actually helps humans live longer, which one of the examples. Yeah that like the animal studies, don't generalize to the human studies, you know, because with cats. Yeah, haven't done it on rats. So

oh that's true, that's true. We should see hold out, but yeah, you could definitely see you know, cats, you know, need to curb their curiosity that I can see dogs as well. Cats don't read my book because it's dangerous for them. Actually, yes, but if they could read it all that would be dangerous, that's correct. And then you have under intellectual well being. You also have deep learning, which is also an important part of intellectual wellbeing. And

then you have relational wellbeing the art of spire. Relations or the number of relationships are the number one predictor of happiness and its relationship with others as well as relationship with oneself. And finally, it's emotional wellbeing. How do you deal with painful emotions? How do you cultivate pleasurable emotions? So it's spiritual well being, physical, intellectual, relational, and emotional.

These are the five elements of happiness that make whole person well being or in a word, whole I love that. I really love that phrase. Don't you have like a whole being Institute or something? So I was one of the co founders of the Whole Being Institute and now most of my work is being done is the Happiness Studies Academy, which focuses on a whole being in the spinal that. Yeah, I just associate that phrase whole being. I think, oh Tall likes that. Free. I love that

because I love that phrase. For a while when I when I saw you use it. That's great. So you say something about like deep learning, but I couldn't. Where do you slot that into the spot? Where's the d I'm confused about that one. Yeah, good, No, No, deep learning is under intell Oh I see. Okay, Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. And and and since you brought that up, let me just say a few

things about that. Because you know, when you say to people, oh, emotions, pleasurable emotions are important for happiness, you know, no brainer, Or when you say a sense of meaning and purpose is important for happiness, yeah, of course, or physical exercise. But people ask me, how is deep learning connected to happiness? Well, it's connected in a very deep way. Going back to Aristotle, whom I consider the father of the of happiness studies.

You know, he talks about human beings being rational animals, and how contemplation is to in his mind, the most important pillar to happiness. But what is it about deep learning? You know, the first course that I took at Harvard, it wasn't actually in the computer science nor was it in psychology. The first course I took as an undergrad

was in speed reading. This was during freshman week and it was a very important course because you know, we were required to read hundreds of pages a week at times, so speed reading important skill. However, looking back, I think an even more important course to teach to mandate on college campuses is slow reading. So learning to look at you know, one paragraph a short text, read it and reread it, and delved deeply into its meaning. It's wonders why.

First of all, because we potentially derive a great deal of joy when we deeply engage with texts, or with nature, or with the work of art. Second, it also benefits other areas in our lives, for example, relationships. You know, one of the reasons why we see so much relationship hopping into today's world, why we see the dissolution of so many relationships, is because people no longer exercise the

deep learning muscles. You know, the average amount of time that people spend on a web page is seven seconds, so you know, seven seconds and new stimulation, and now we need new stimulation, new stimulation, and these muscles are exercised, and then we need new stimulation in life, and we get bored very quickly. Instead, if we learn to delve deeper in too work of art or a text. If we really get to know a text deeply well, then we can use these very same muscles or they will

be implemented automatically. Also when we engage and interact with a person. So you know, the right neural pathways for deep relationships are cultivated. We develop them when we engage deeply with a text or anything else for that matter. And relationships is just one example. You know, I would apply it to you know the world of business as well. It can help us better know a person, ascertain whether

a deal is a good deal or not. So the deep learning muscles are very important muscles which in today's world most people do not use sufficiently. Yeah, I love that you include that in your model. Where does creativity fit into your model? So you know, when it comes to creativity, and again, who am I to talk to you about creativity? But when it comes to creativity, you know, we need to create the right conditions, put the right conditions in place. So you know the work of Alice

Eisen and Barbara Frederickson. You know, they point to to the fact that when we increase or improve our mood, when we experience more positive, pleasurable emotions, we are more likely to think outside the box. So that's so that's one element you know that that would go under emotional well being. Increasing emotional well being bad will will help us become more creative. But not only that, you know, intellectual wellbeing as well. You know, when we when we

learn about different topics, we become more creative. You know, my personal favorite examples. So you know, so I love music, and specifically classical music, and specifically the the classical and the Romantic periods. So I listened to a lot of Mozart and Beethoven. If you listen to Beethoven's first two symphonies,

they sound like Mozart. You listen to his third symphony, that's Beethoven, that's the Romantic beth Even now, Beethoven would not have become Beethoven without studying Gregorian chants and bah and uh and and Mozart. So he deeply studied these, you know. So the the the the illusion that you know, the great creative genius you know, brings creativity out of nowhere. It's an illusion. So so so deep learning contributes a great deal to to creativity. And let me give another

example from spiritual well being. So part of spiritual well being is being present, being in the here and now flow me hichis and me High's the concept of being in the here and out that contributes a great deal to creativity. So if you look at similarly, by the way, there's also research that you know, having a good night's sleep that contributes to creativity. So every one of the spire elements, including by the way, relational well being, which is the only one that I didn't mention. I mean,

creativity often comes in conversation. And I remember, you know, you and I met for lunch in New York City, and I don't know about you, but my creative juices were flowing, and I have very fond memories of that. And that was as a result of bouncing ideas. You know, we talked about Maslow, and we talked about you know, our respective histories and and and and our you know, desired future and and and and these encounters lead to creativity.

So every one of the spire elements is part of a sort of the the foundation or the ground, the fertile ground from which creativity grows. Oh yeah, I absolutely love that. And my next question is more of a philosophical question because I'm really genuinely curious to know your thoughts on this. What's the benefit of putting all those things under the umbrella of happiness versus you slipped into the term well being while you're discussing this, So do

you equate happiness with well being? And then what do you equate like some positive psychologists equate happiness with life satisfaction, positive effect, and so that what do you equate with that? Like, what do you call that? What they're calling happiness? What do you call that? Exactly? Why it's so important to define our terms, And in that respect, it's I don't know if it's arbitrary the way we define our terms, because you know, there is rhyme or reason, at least

to us. But at the same time, there isn't a right definition. Now that doesn't mean there are no right or wrong in anything goes. You know, we know that doing certain things will have a positive impact and doing

other things will have negative impact. But at the same time, whether you define happiness as comprising the five spire elements or happiness being about adding the each moment, moment by moment experience and you know the aggregate of these moments is happiness, or whether you equate it with well being or with life satisfaction. You know, that's a matter of choice. The reason why I chose to draw on the spire elements is because I think that is an inclusive and

definition that brings together a lot of the works. You know, so Freud's work on the pleasure principle, Victor Frankel's work on meaning, Robert Nozick, or Daniel Conniman's work on aggregating our experience self you know at Dinners, and Daniel Conniman's work on you know, looking back and reflecting on on our lines. I'm including all those in in in my model. And yet you know, there are people who said, well,

you should add different things. You know, recently a few people actually said, I mean, you should include financial well being under under happiness, because that's important too. And and my response is that if it's important for you included. You know, as much as I emphasize research, I emphasize me search even more, and and and and and that

is what Masters emphasized a lot. So when he talked about doing a research in psychology, he talked about a great deal about you know, digging deep, looking into our best experiences and learning from those, not just about looking at research that aggregates other people's experiences cool, And it seems like you're really focusing on kind of the Is this fair to say happiness is kind of the emergence of the all operating and all cylinders and all those things,

Because if you just pluck one of those things out of the context of the others, you get like, you know, you can get like a William James who was intellectual up the kazoo but wanted to kill kill himself, you

know through most of his life. Would I wouldn't describe him as a happy person, you know, So it just seems like one of those plucked out of the context of the others is not necessarily happiness in itself, But it seems like you're using is it fair to say that's more of an emergence of you know, all those boxes, because you know every one of those matter, you know, even you know, you look at Victor Frankel as a person who who who searched for and found meaning in

his life. But to say that Victor frank was happy when he was at Auschwitz, for example, you know that would be ludicrous. So, you know, meaning is not happiness. At the same time, a person without a sense of meaning in life, it would be, you know, really stretched, probably impossible to find happiness. So meaning is necessary, but not sufficient condition for happiness. And you can say that

about each one of the inspire elements. Having said that, and this is often misunderstanding that about the model, you don't need to have them all to the end degree, or you don't need a ten on each one of those elements. And in fact you can't have a ten. And what you need is to ask yourself, so, which are the ones that are more important for me, and let me go, you know, full steam ahead on those, and at the same time manage the others so that

they don't detract from from from from happiness. You know it has I'll draw a parallel here too to something that Peter Drucker, the the considered the man who invented management, or at least modern management studies. You know, he said about strength, He said, we need to focus on our strength and manage our weaknesses. He didn't say focus on

our strength and ignore our weaknesses. I mean the same way, we need to manage all five elements of the spire and then primarily focus on those that are most near and dearer to us. So, you know, if I think about it, you know, personally, intellectual well being is extremely important to me, and and and therefore I spend a lot of time reading, you know, writing and learning at the same time. You know, physical well being, of course

is important to me. But you know, I no longer or play professional squash, so I exercise and I do what I think is good enough in that in that area. You know, I'm not I'm not training for the iron Man. You know, I don't work out, you know, three hours a day, but but I do what I know works for me, which is enough. And we need to to balance all these things because you know, there are only you know, twenty four hours a day, you know, twenty five before going back from you know, changing the clocks.

And we need to to do the best that we can in the limited time that we have, and we cannot experience attend each one of the spire elements just unrealistic. I love that. I love that you mentioned. You know, you're hinting at the fact there are individual differences in in desire to fulfill each one of those. Are there also cultural differences in how people and cultures define happiness differently? Right, Yes, so you know, when we look at and happiness, we

need to look at it at three levels. The three levels are the universal, the cultural, and the personal. So the universal level, there are certain universals, you know, whether you're in you know, in Nairobi or or Sacramento or Shanghai. To be happy, you want a sense of meaning and purpose in life, You need to be physically active, you need to learn, relationships are keen. All these in every culture in the world, as you know, is gratitude and

dealing with painful emotions. So these there are certain universals. At the same time, there are also cultural differences, you know, when it comes to two relationships. Again, in the US much more in individualistic. In Africa the idea of ubuntu I am because you are is a central concept, and

in China much more collectivistic. So there are cultural differences that we need to take into consideration, and certain things that will make a European or a North American again I'm generalizing here, broad brushstrokes that would make them happy would not necessarily work or not work in the same way in Africa or Asia. And again very broad brushstrokes here. So there are cultural issues that we need to take into consideration. And finally, we need to take individual issues

into consideration. And this is where research because not all Americans, or not all canyons, not all Chinese are alike. They're very different. And this is where we need to look inside and ask, for example, which one of the spire elements is most important for me, and what can I do in my life to to to increase the quota within that spi element Because for me it could it's studying philosophy and psychology. Perhaps for someone else it's studying languages.

For someone else it's art. So there are individual differences as well, and we need to look at those three levels again, the universal, the cultural, the individual. You're here, you're here, thanks, thanks for that making those distinctions. What would you say to someone. Let's say a student came up to you. It was like, Professor Ben Shahar, I really want to achieve happiness. What can I do to achieve happiness? You know? What would you say to that student?

I'd say too, I want to I want a high performance on happiness, I would say to them, Houston, and we have a problem. And the reason is the reason. That's my scooby doo, that's my scooby Doo. The reason is because of research that was conducted by Irish Moss, and what she and others showed was that people who stought of by saying, you know, happiness is very important for me, or you know, I don't pursue happiness and I'm going to be happier, they actually end up less happy.

So the reason why we have a problem is because on the one hand we're told this, but on the other hand, we also know that happiness is a good thing. You know, first of all, it feels good to feel good. Second, you know, people are happier, as we talked about it, are more creative, they enjoy better relationships, they are physically healthier, they they're nice or kind. You know, we all want happiness.

It's a good thing. And yet on the other hand, we know Irisma's research that waking up in the morning and saying that, or going to our professor and saying, you know, I want to be happier and you know, what can I do to become happier that actually detracts takes away from our happiness. So how do we reconcile this contradiction or paradox or challenge and the way we do it is by pursuing happiness indirectly. So let me use an analogy before I give a concrete example. So

the analogy is sunlight. You know, if the sun is shining and I'm looking up directly at the sun, that will hurt my eyes, that will actually cause me pain. So what can I do. I can break the sun rays the sunlight using a prison for example, and then indirectly look at the sun, and then I can really enjoy the colors of the rainbow. In the same way with happiness, rather than pursuing it directly, I can indirectly pursue it. And what are the metaphorical colors of the rainbow.

They are the spire elements. So if I wake up in the morning and say, you know, I want to do work that's meaningful to me, or I want to be more present and meditate, that will contribute indirectly to my happiness. Or if I start exercising regularly physical well being, that's indirectly pursuing happiness. Or if I engage in deep learning, if I ask questions curiosity, that's indirectly leading to happiness. Same for cultivating relationships, investing in my relationships, making them

a priority, or or expressing gratitude emotional wellbeing. These are always of indirectly pursuing happiness. So enjoying sunlight without being hurt. I love that, you know a lot of what we talked about, and even talking about that now you know it might be might be more of a privilege for some people or others, you know, And I'm wondering, you know, how can this positive psychology approach that you're putting forward try to lift up individuals who are most at risk populations? Yeah,

so a few things. You know. The first thing is the foundation of happiness is first allowing in unhappiness. In other words, you know, happiness is not about being happy all the time, or a happy life is not about experiencing a constant high all the time. In fact, it's about embracing painful emotions, accepting the fact that they're part and parcel of every life difficulties, hardships, and paradoxically, when we accept and embrace painful emotions, that's when we open

ourselves up to two more happiness. So, you know, saying that or promising that, you know, the if you truly understand happiness and do all the right things so to speak, you'll experience a constant high. You know that that's a detached, unrealistic notion. Second connected to this, it's not an all or nothing proposition. You know, people ask me today, who know that I got into the field of the happiness studies or positive psychology because I was unhappy? They say, okay,

so thirty years hence, are you finally happy? And my answer to that is, I don't know. I don't even know how to answer this question. Why. Because I don't think there is a point before which one is unhappy, after which one is happy. I don't think happiness is not a binary zero one. Rather, it exists on a continuum. And in other words, I'm happier today than I was thirty years ago, certainly, but I hope ten years from

now to be happier than I am today. You know, it's a lifelong journey, a journey that ends when life ends now. The point, therefore, is wherever I am on that continuum. The question is how can I become a little bit happier? What can I do to increase my levels of well being? And I can do that whether I am in the on the depressed side, perhaps the very depressed side, on the continuum, or if I'm doing okay, or if I'm doing great and want to be even

happier than that. In other words, the field is relevant for all of us, and the tools can be implemented for anyone, anywhere, anytime. At the same time, the field, whether a positive psychology or the science of happiness, is not a panacea and it doesn't solve everything. And if a person is experiencing depression, then I recommend going to

a conventional therapist or if necessary, a psychiatrist. And if you know, if we experience a serious poverty in certain areas, we need to alleviate the poverty and deal with the poverty, you know, going to There are certain basics, basic needs that that are more important to deal with than happiness. Now, if you can deal with them concurrently together, then great,

it's the best of both worlds. But if you had to choose, do I alleviate severe poverty or do I teach them the science of happiness, that's a no brainer. You know, poverty first, of course, Why do you think depression levels are skyrocketing? Do you think there's a relationship between technology and cell phone use and depression? Unfortunately there is, and This is based on a lot of research that's

out there. Whether it's Eric Kleinberg, who is a sociologist at NYU who has shown that the more time we spend on social media, the loanlier we are, and and then there is work by Gene Twine from San Diego who shows that the reason why levels of depression are so high among the teenagers is because they're spending more and more time on the smartphone technology. You know, the number one addiction today, not alcohol, non drugs, not gambling. It's technology and we're paying a high price for it

now in moderation. Technology is great, but we've gone way way beyond moderation. Oh yeah, I have this other screen up of my Twitter that I've just been on the whole time and keep paying paytent Oh you said something, najah joking. I didn't do that. But you know, here's the thing. You know, compassion is is just over and over again in the literature, a really important tentative happiness.

It just seems like social media, you know, just my perception, social media is causing us to be even more polarized and not talk to each other in a those who we disagree with. It's not. It's not we don't talk to them in such a compassionate way when we're performing, you know, trying to get likes, you know, And what's how do we get out of this rut and return to relationships and compa positive relationship comparts. That's the question.

And you know, the most troubling study that I came across, maybe my entire career, is by Sarah Conrad, and what she found was that levels of empathy among twenty year olds today is, according to her measurement, forty percent lower than empathy levels of twenty year olds from twenty years ago. In other words, over a period of twenty years, empathy levels went down by forty percent according to this sture.

Now it doesn't matter how you measure. You know. They did something similar in the UK and they found that teenagers and young adults displayed less empathy, less care less compassion towards other people. Now, why do we see that? And the answer is, I'm fortunately in technology, because how do you develop empathy? You know, empathy, as I see it is the moral language and the language of morality. And how do you develop a language, well, you know,

take Vietnamese. Let's say, you know, Scott. You decide to study Vietnamese, one thing you can do is take classes in Vietnamese and you know, you know, three times a week go to class and you'll learn, and you'll you'll memorize the vocabulary, and you know you're a Vietnamese, will certainly improve. However, that's no match for going to Vietnam and immersing yourself in the language. That's when you really pick up the language. That's when you will get to

a much higher level than taking classes in Vietnamese. In other words, immersion, that's the key. Now let's go to the language of morality, which is empathy. What does it mean to immerse ourselves in that language? It means to be together in person with other people, to play the same sandbox, to be around the same desk, to to to hurt someone and then see the reaction to you know, be hurt by someone, to cry and then to to to reconcile. You know, that's how empathy is cultivated. It's

not cultivated when you are on on social media. Even worse things happen because you know, because you don't see the other person, you see that you get away with with horrible things and and the natural and it is natural. The natural sentiment of empathy is not cultivated, doesn't grow, doesn't develop. And yes, we can have more and more classes on ah, you know, value clarification and empathy and talk about the golden rule, and that's important. I'm not

believing that their their value. However, that's no substitute for immersion in the language of empathy. And today kids as well as adults interact far less face to face or or in person. That's a real shame and it's uh. COVID didn't help that, did it. It didn't and and it's not and hopefully it is temporary, will go back

way back to appreciating in person interactions. At the same time, not all is lost on when when when we are forced to interact online, because you know, while perhaps we need to have more virtual relationships today by by virtue of the situation, there is an important distinction that we need to make, and that is between superficial and deep relationships.

You know, if I spend and an hour with a friend through sky through Zoom, we can have a very deep conversation, and that deep conversation does contribute to developing empathy, not the same as being in the same same room, around the same table. However, it's a lot better than just interacting through emojis or l o ls or other shortcuts to emotions. There are no shortcuts to cultivating empathy.

Do you make a distinction between compassion and empathy? Again, I think a lot of it is a matter of definition. I think there are intimately connected. So a person who cultivates empathy the ability to identify other people's feeding in then to identify with their feelings, I think that person will be more compassionate, will be more caring. Yeah, and you're you know, it seems like care is kind of the underlying thread, you know, across all that. You made

an interesting point about more face to face interaction. I find that, you know, if there are people that are kind of I find them to be kind of jerks on Twitter, if I d M them, you know, direct message them privately and talk to them, they tend to be quite cordial with me. And it just makes me think that, gosh, maybe we should all be having more one on one interactions with each other than these performative

self esteem attempts at self esteem boosts. You know, but if on Twitter or you know, the top backs knew how much they were approaching the person they were messaging, they would not do it. And not only they not do it, it would go a long way into strengthening you know, the the empathic, the compassionate connections in their brains. But when it just goes out there, you know, into the ether, it hurts without them learning or even knowing

just how much it hurts. I love that. Well, so tell me about some of you one here with, you know, tell me about your latest endeavors such as the Happiness Dayes Academy. And then you have a Certificate in Happiness Studies CIHS, So tell our listeners about that because they

might be super interested in that all that. Yeah, So the Certificate in Happiness Studies is a year long journey, which is actually a lifelong journey, but the year long journey is where participants get a lot of or over forty lectures and you know, fifty webinars and a lot of reading and exercises. And the purpose of this Certificate in Happiness Studies is to how participants become happier and

help them help others become happier. And we have students from over sixty countries who are you know therapists and coaches and consultants and managers and teachers and parents, and you know the doctors. You know, the whole gamuts, people who are introducing the signs of happiness to their professional life as well as to their personal life, helping themselves and others become happier. That sounds great. That sounds really great. Well, I wish you all the great success with it. And yeah,

thanks so much for chatting with me today. You're a legend in the field, so it was a true honor for me, you know, so thank you for the chat today. Thank you for that, Scott, and I can wait to meet in person again real soon. I can't wait. All the best to you. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com.

That's the Psychology podc dot com. Also, if you'd prefer a completely ad free experience and would like early access to new episodes, you can join us at Patreon dot com Slash psych Podcast. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the show, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.