Steve Magness || Real Toughness

and the author of the Science of Running. Collectively, his books have sold more than a quarter million copies in print, ebook and audio formats, and his latest book, which is the topic of our discussion today, is called Do Hard Things. In this episode, I talked to Steve Magnus about real toughness. The prevailing narrative around achievement extalls the merits of unrelenting resolve.

To show vulnerability is to show weakness. According to Steve, the hyper focus on external bravado is detrimental to performance and mental health. He outline and says four core pillars of resilience to replace our broken model of toughness. We also touched on the topics of stoicism, self esteem, emotions, mindfulness, and sports Psychology. I really respect Steve. He's very evidence based. He's also a really humble and good guy. I'm really

excited to share this episode with you all today. So now, without further ado, I give you Steve Magnus. Steve, it's great to have you back in the Psychologic podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me looking forward to it. Yes, me too. How have you grown and changed since the last time you run the podcast, which might have been twenty fifteen sixteen. Yeah, I was gonna say it was a it was a while ago, sure was, you know. I like to think I hopefully I've grown and changed a lot. I like

to think I have. I think if you go back to twenty fifteen sixteen, I was still in a world where sport and running and that was dominating my life. And since then, I would say that I've gone on this journey where, you know, a sport is all always going to be something that's important to me. But I think I've kind of zoomed out and maybe gotten a little perspective and realized the bigger picture and what's important.

That's amazing. So in a way, this book that you've written today, it wasn't in your head then A lot of these ideas about resilience. Did you even have some sort of outdated or some of the kind of notions you push back against in this current book? Do you even have some of those notions in your head around twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, Oh yeah, one hundred percent because the culture, the culture and sport is so much of like just push through everything I see, And that was

definitely my mentality. I mean back then, even then, it was you don't show any sign of weakness, Like any vulnerability is almost like something that someone could exploit, which I think is obviously wrong, But that's the kind of mentality you grow up in. So even I think if we talked about that at that point my life, I probably I definitely would have said a lot of things

that are counter to now what I believe. So in many ways, this book might represent some of the growth that I've had, you know, as a person, that's really incredible go growth. And since then, there's been some really high profile Olympic cases of individuals admitting that they have some mental health issues and that they don't want to continue. So that how much do you think that has kind of changed the public consciousness and this awareness around some

of these issues. I do. I think it's amazing because I think what you're seeing is essentially people speaking about the reality of the situation. So you'd hear, you know, in the sports world especially, you'd hear maybe some of these struggles and whispers, you know, behind the scenes, but no one talked about it publicly because it was again, it was a weakness. It was something that you were

kind of ashamed of. So I think people like tennis player in Naomi Osaka Somone Biles during the Olympics essentially saying, hey, here's the reality of the situation. This is hard stuff, and I'm a human being and I'm gonna struggle with things, and here are some of my struggles. I think that

message is so impactful because it normalizes the reality. It doesn't give us this kind of fake facade where it's like, oh, everything's great, I'm the toughest person in the world, Like I can go out and do these crazy things and it's normal, because it's not. And we've seen it, even with you know that one of the best Olympians ever, Michael Phelps, you know, normalizing some mental health struggles as well,

and I think that is so impactful. It's so interesting because I think so much of this is tied up with a certain image of masculinity though as well. I mean, I feel like this is undeniable. In discussing this, I mean, a lot of the culture that you criticize, it's still alive and well. And I'm not gonna mention names of a lot of people use their imagination, but you know, you see on the internet culture of people who you know,

I woke up at four am. Again, I'm not much news, but you know there's and that seems to work for them, right, So uh and it's or is it? I mean, I guess we don't really know their personal life and what they actually go through day to day, but you know they rally a lot of followers. You know, their followers feel inspired by it. You know, what would you kind of say to that culture and why it's so popular? Why is so popular? And and does it and why

why is it undeniably? Mostly sort of like bros that are like you know, Rauty, I mean, I'm just I'm just being truthful. No, That's what I love about you, Scott, is you just call it, I just say it. But I think you're spot on and I think there is something about that. I think it's it's rather appealing because it, for whatever reason, in the US especially, we have this culture where you know, it goes back hundreds of year. It's like, well, hard work gets us ahead, hard work

separates us in you know, our religions, various religions. It's like we like hard work, dedication, all of that stuff is is celebrated. So I think in a way it's very culturally tied together so that people almost like you almost like have to say it to celebrate it. So if I say, hey, I'm getting up at five am, what does that tell me? Well, it tells you, Oh, this person's dedicated. Oh, this person's going to put in the work. Oh this person's you know, getting ahead while

I'm sleeping. But if you look at the reality is over the sustained long term of it, maybe sleep is a better thing than getting up at four am. And I'm not if that's your only choice and it's working for you, get more power to you. But I think

this is what it gets at. It is that it's not it looks good and in today's kind of social media world, what's going to get more likes and clicks, like a post of your watch at four am and you working out and it's completely dark, or you getting up at you know, seven point thirty, you know, going to the gym and doing something, or going for a walk like you know, that's not as that's not as popular. So I think it is something that's just in this culture.

And then the last part that I have to come in is it is a little of that masculinity piece that I think is big, right, It's almost like this machismo where we have to show it externally. And I think this gets at the heart of the problem. Is it's this external bravado of hey, look at me doing these incredibly difficult things I'm getting up at four am to work out or whatever it is in the bro culture.

When the reality is, and we know this from as you know from decades of data, is it's really the internal that matters, that internal motivation and strength, and often that is quiet, right. It's for example, in a non athletic context. You know this. When you write a book, it's incredibly it's hard, it's challenging, but you don't take a picture and like, hey, I wrote thousand words today.

Every single day, look at me it's almost this quiet sense of Okay, I've got to wrestle with this topic, and I'm going to delete some stuff and sometimes I'm going to go through this writer's block. But like it's that internal motivation that pushes you to get the project eventually done. And I think that's often what we've kind of neglected. You raise so many important issues. I'm just thinking of like synchronized swimming or artistic swimming as an example.

There are certain sports where clearly the reward and the all in wonder is how effortless they look, and so it would almost be taboo and certain sports for them to show how hard they worked in them. And then there are others where it seems like it's part and parcel of the status to show how hard you work

in them. So I actually see it. It feels like it differs depending on the demean and maybe but again maybe the gender thing in because you don't see many bros artistic swimming, do you, right, And I think that's kind of it. Right. Wait a minute, that just dawned on me. That just dawn on me. Maybe that goes down gendered lines UFC versus. I'm let's take two extremes.

UFC fighting versus artistic swimming play right like they seem to, they must differ in the extent to which the leaders in those fields on social media are showing how much work they're putting in. And maybe I'm wrong again people challenge me. Who hear anything I say, Please feel free

to challenge me. But I'm just thinking, like it seems like there's there's certain fields where it's like you work so hard that so you can show how, you know, effortless it looks at the end of the day, and how beautiful and free flowing it is, you know exactly. I think you're onto something because it's like artistic swimming.

You look at maybe like rhythmic gymnastics and other sports like that, where it's it's almost like be effortless, don't don't, don't grimace while you're doing it, like you're being judged. And then you look at maybe you know sports like again UFC or football or whatever. At boxing, it's like, no,

there's there's a lot of bravado. There's a lot of you know, we're we we want to be seen as tough in putting an effort ragging exactly, So it's very interesting this it does split along gendered lines, and I would argue that at the extremes of both ends we have some a little bit of issues, right because if in artistic swimming or gymnastics you're encouraged to like don't show any sign of like struggle, well that's not good

because occasionally, like gymnastics is tough, like artistic swimming is tough, like you're holding your breath all that time, right, is uh, maybe some reality might help. But on the flip side again with something like ufsay usc, it's like, well maybe some reality of you know, we don't need all of this bravado or external kind of mut cheese mo like. It's it's still the inner strength gets you through the

difficult moment. So it's both sides kind of have this maybe this little piece where we could meet in the happy middle somewhere. Yeah, that would be very nice. I this is on my mind because I saw those breathtaking photos of the artistic swimmer who lost consciousness and her coach jumped in and saved her, and then another member of the team jumped to save her. The lifeguards, by the way, didn't move at all, you know, And I don't know did you follow that story by any chance

you know what I did? Yes? Yeah, And you know, I wonder what extent she felt as though she couldn't it was as a result, you know, of not being able to express you know, how hard she had to like train and work, you know, and and kind of societal pressures. So interesting, there's societal pressures against women saying you know how they feel. But there's also, you know, saddle pressures against men in saying you know how you feel. So it's almost like the men show off how hard

they're working, but without any showing any emotions involved. It's like, you know, because that's you know, just it's like, I'm going to work so hard. Look how I woke up before. Look how stolen temperament I am. Look how you know I read Ryan Holiday. I love Ryan. I'm saying it's like, God forbid you bring in a little bit humanistic psychology. You know that we're a whole person, right, and that

there's more or less the matters. So I don't know, I'm just riffing with you and just bringing up various streams of consciousness to riff on. Yeah, No, I love it. This is why I love talking with you, Scott, because I think it's even interesting there because and I love Ryan Holliday and his work. He does fantastic work. But often even the so called philosophies we were drawn to

also kind of fit into this bigger picture. There's some great things we can learn about Stoicism, But often I think the interpretation of Stoic in the modern world is like, oh, just like quiet, you know, get through the thing, don't show any emotions. I mean, that's what Stoic kind of means, even though that's not what the philosophy kind of suggests. But alternatively, you don't see a lot of bros. Picking up Carl Rogers or humanistic philosophers, right, And it's it's

popular the exception. I'm the exception, right, But it's it's interesting because we're drawn to, you know, different philosophies that kind of fit this kind of society, cultural, you know, space that maybe we occupy in without seeing the full spectrum of maybe. You know, what I try and do is like, there's some great things in Stoicism that I can pull on that that fit in this model of

real toughness I'm trying to do. There's some wonderful things from humanistic philosophy that fit in, and it's like it's wrestling with that nuance and maybe that oftentimes we're lacking. This is really really interesting, you know, because I want to go through your four pillars and I want us to not I urge, I urge our listeners to not view these along gendered lines. I think that's a big point of of what we want to say here. You know what I mean, you obviously are saying, and I'm

agreeing with you. You know, we have a shared message. I want us to go through these flour and just I don't want people to see these things through gendered lines. Like the first of us ditch the facade, embrace reality. I mean you talk about how true confidence is quiet, insecurity is loud again. I mean, there are the kind of these gender you know things where like women don't talk as much in meetings, don't feel like they can

they're appreciate as much when they're lowed, you know. And and men you know who are wowed and who aren't loud, you know, are kind of viewed as submissive, you know.

So how can we transcend Let's transcend these these these these pattern degendered ways of thinking and just make as true statement, which is that regardless of who you are and what feel you are, it seems like it feels like the point you're making is it seems like the people who are the most secure within themselves and confident and have mastered the skills and feel confidencesters don't feel such a need to roar as loudly. Is that the

point you're making exactly? That's it spot on, And I think what you we see is again it's almost kind of this external versus internal and what we know again from research and experience, is that that internal confidence is

what actually lasts. If we come forward and come at things with a lot of let's say external bravado, what happens is, yeah, you might get started, but the moment you're faced with that difficult moment where it's like, oh this is really tough, like I don't know if I can get through this, the external fades away, The bravado fades away, because you are left with you have to do this thing, and it's just you and that thing.

And if you don't have that security to navigate those really difficult moments, and that security is again internal and quiet and just I know who I am and what I'm capable of and what I've done to get to this point. If you have that internal security, you can persist or like you know, figure your way how to navigate through things. And I think so much too much times what we've done is we've kind of thrown that

by the wayside. And you know, my childhood was a great example of this because I grew up in the self esteem generation, where in the eighties and nineties, I think at every elementary school, you know, program was something to tell us we were great. And you know you would know better than I do, Scott, but self esteem is great. It works very well. It's something that is needed.

But from my understanding of both the literature and experience, like telling something someone they're great isn't the same as saying, hey, you know, you went through this difficult time you you know, worked really hard on this project or paper or what have you. Like this is this is fantastic, and the sense that there's some evidence behind it and that compliment or that that whatever telling people they're good at something

has some meat on the bones that works. Just telling people like you're fantastic in a you know, in a presentation doesn't do much so I really want to get back to that is like, Okay, we need a little bit of reality and evidence behind things, and if we do that, then we're going to be in a much better place. Oh for sure, I've been. I've been trying to illustrate, trying to highlight to people the difference between self esteem and narcissism, because the two are often conflated

with each other. A healthy self esteem actually isn't one where you're constantly being told you're great. Healthy self esteem usually develops from a warm, nurturing family who is constantly signaling you that you're worthy, that you are competent, just as competent as anyone else, to learn something and to grow. But that's a healthy self esteem. But that's different actually, the narcissism and puffing yourself up in a grandiose way, feeling like you always had the defend and I am

great self schema. That's that's different than self esteem. I love that. And you know where my mind goes again is maybe sport, especially youth sport, because often what you see is that support key people interpret it as like, oh, my child needs to win, and I'm going to teach them how to win and this is gonna like give them the confidence and stuff. But that's not what support is.

Support is creating, as you said, that warm environment where your child knows, like win or lose at the soccer game or football game or pee wee, you know, baseball whatever it is, like their loves supported and that you appreciate like the effort they put forth and the things that they're challenging themselves on. And you create that environment and that's what it's about, not this like win or lose at you know, eight years old or whatever have you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Another one in under the Embrace Reality section of you have a chapter on accepting what you are capable of. And I struggled with that one quite honestly, because I really have that kind of attitude of like as a coach and as a I'm crring a new form of

coaching I'm calling self actualization coaching. A big tenant is I believe in your potential, you know, for growth and and almost don't accept the labels that people put on you, right, you know, like as a kid, imagine if when I was, you know, told what my Q score was at age eight eight or so, I don't know if you know my life story. Imagine if I was like, well, Steve says, accept what you're capable of? You know is what Maybe

what you're saying is, well, is there a nuance? Is a room for nuance here where you can say, don't accept what other people tell you're capable of. Maybe maybe that's maybe that we can agree on that at least, But but then there's nuance within your own self and what you accept in your own capacities. What do you think I would agree with that? I think I think hopefully all of my book is nuanced because it is.

But you know what I'm trying to get at there is exactly that is, to see what you're capable of. You have to occasionally push the balance right, You have to test yourself, You have to put yourself in positions and see what's there. I think what I'm trying to get at there is whenever we face challenges, we need some degree of overlap between our perceptions, not other people's, our perceptions of what we're capable of, and our perceptions of the demand of the thing we're trying to do.

So and what I say is again some degree of overlap. It doesn't need to be perfect maybe we have, you know, again stretching our limits so that but I think where we get in the get in our way often is again we almost think, oh, I have to be always optimistic, always shooting for the stars, always thinking that I'm the greatest ever, And often that's up for what I'd call

a false appraisal. Where again, when we get in the thing and it becomes challenging, it's almost like our brain says, oh, hit this gape button because this is way more difficult

than we thought it was. So what I'm I trying to get at is when I say, accept what you're capable of is again it's that internal your perception, not others, and trying to get your perception based on the reality of like putting yourself in situations where you stretch your capabilities and see what's there, and that that is a positive. And again I think if we adopt that, that kind of reframes our how we think of maybe wins or losses or failure, because then failure is not you know,

this thing, this personal attack on me. It's information where you say, Okay, I wasn't capable of it today, but now I know where my weak spot is or what I am capable of now how do I bridge that gap? Yeah, thank you for that clarification. I would refrain that and maybe in a way you haven't quite thought of it,

but you might agree with me. You're basically you're saying, have humility, because the definition of humility in the psychological literature is simply your ability to have an accurate assessment of your current ability set. I'd agree one hundred percent. Actually, when writing the book, I talked to someone who's elite

military and he put it very similar to that. Actually was after I was done writing the book, so this part didn't make it into the book, But he said, Steve, when we're out there doing crazy things and surviving and in the midst of the battle, it's not about this unbridled confidence. It's about humble confidence because I need to know it's like just like that, that humility to understand what I'm trying to do and what I'm capable of

this in this moment. And he said, you know, contrary to maybe popular opinion, a little bit of doubt is a good thing because it keeps me sharp and aware in times when I need to be. Yeah, so can

we say two things can be true? At the same time that you can have that humility while also not necessarily accepting the potential that people say that people put on you, especially like school children and and well even you know, even if your coach tells you that you don't have what it takes, but you believe inside you have that fire and potential for it, that you still have the humility in the moment, but you still have the longer term confidence. Can we hold both those in

there our mind at the same time. I think that is fantastic And my wife, who is an elementary school teacher, would agree with that and love that great wonderful. Another thing you talk about in the Embracing Reality section is no one to hold them and when to fold them. Sometimes I say, no one to grit, no one to quit. Is that similar? Yeah, the same thing, because I think again in certain sections of our culture, we often have this idea of quitting is being equated to you know, losing,

or that you're weak or what have you. And the reality is, you know, sometimes quitting is the right thing to do. You know. In the book, I outlined and talked to some world class climbers who climb like mountains like Mount Everest, right, and they tell me it is Steve. The tough thing to do is, you know, see the summit. You know right there, you're capable of getting there, But you can't just be drawn to that one off goal.

You have to sit there and be like, do I have the energy to not only make it all the way to the top, but also all the way back down safely? And sometimes you do that assessment you say, no, quitting is the right thing, even though you've trained for months or years to make it to that summit. So again, what I'm trying to get at is we've got to do that assessment. You know, it's not about quitting as being some weakness. It's about what's the right thing in

that moment. I love that and changing goals. I mean, quitting is also a label that you're putting on yourself exactly. I think it's it's again, there's some fascinating research that shows elite performers from athletics to military to again, you know, others are really good at at shifting their goals in the moment, right And what that, what that does is is amazing because we go from Okay, well maybe this goal isn't possible, but if I can shift my goal.

It's like my motivation doesn't fall off a cliff. It gets directed towards something else. Yea. And that allows us to like stay in the game and you know, still do things that we want to do. Yeah. Forevery no, you're saying yes to something else exactly exactly. Another pillar you talk about is listen to your body. And this is an interesting one, and I assume you're not talking to schizophrenics own the voice in your head. Yeah, no, no,

it's not. Again, there's nuance here. But I think often what we look at is we almost see our inner voice as combative, especially in difficult moments, because it's often that in a voice that brings up maybe doubts or insecurities, or that urge to quit when we're doing difficult or uncomfortable things. Yeah. So your motions are messengers, not dictators, but sometimes it feels like they're dictators. What do you do when you feel like it's it is a dictator?

You know? What about like, you know, people who are addicted to athletic improvements? You know, there there are people out there, Steve who I think the word addiction applies, you know, to the extent to which they must practice practice, practice. What do you think. I think addiction is a spot on I mean, I've I've actually experienced that in my younger life. I mean in high school, I definitely went through moments of having to instead of wanting to. And

I think that's a dangerous moment. And what I'm trying to say in this piece with emotions or messengers not dictators, is they can become dictators. And that's what we're trying to almost keep them in their right place by again, learning to listen to your body. The example I like to give again I'll use an athletic context, but it applies to everything is if I can understand the difference when I go to work out between pain that is normal and pain or discomfort that might mean injury or

that I need to stop. And there's nuance there there is, And how do you understand that nuance? Well, you have to spend time sitting with that emotion to understand it. And I think some of the fascinating research lately is around the contextualization of emotions. And actually I'll go to a story from my wife, who again is the elementary school teacher, who put this very clearly to me. Is she. She one day said like, hey, Steve, do you know why?

You know, she's taught kindergarten, first grade, other grades like that. Do you know why kids sometimes freak out and throw tantrums? No? I you know, I we don't have kids. I've only rarely experienced that. She's like, there experiences barrage of feelings. Maybe it's from like frustration of you know, getting a you know, a graded paperback, or that friends didn't interact

with them at recess. But they experience this barrage of feelings that often is unfamiliar and that they have no idea what to do with, and they can only describe it in a very you know, shallow or minute way. And for example, with five year olds, everything is sad. You know, I feel sad. I feel sad. Why because they haven't developed the capacity to you know, distinguish that nuance of maybe the difference between sadness and frustration or

loneliness or whatever have you. And as you understand or contextualize that vocabulary, you're able to deal with the thing a little bit better because you can understand it. And as adults we start to gain that ability. But I really think again, it's the ability that sometimes we neglect because we shew away our emotions and feelings. And my message is, you know, you got to learn from them.

You got to almost kind of become friends with them a little bit so that you can understand what wants maybe to listen to and what ones again that might be false alarms or you know, false signals that you know you can let pass on by. Yeah. I agree, and I think that like Mark Brackett, for instance, is doing really good work on emotional literacy in doing exactly that and teaching that to school children. I wonder to what extent Mark thought through how this can be applied

to for coaches in the sports world. And that's something maybe I could get you guys talk to know each other, maybe I can make an intro. Yeah, that'd be fantastic because it is it's absolutely a skill that is not developed but certainly applies in the sporting world because again, there's so many nuances of the feelings and sensations you get when you're working out, regardless of what it is. Because it's uncomfortable, right, Yeah, it is uncomfortable. I mean

your book is called Do Hard Things. You are still advocating doing hard things. You're not saying like, oh, take it easy, Like you know, like we focus too much our society and doing hard things and we should just be heating us that you do still say that it's good to do hard things, but you're what you're saying and what you're challenging are the methods by which we

do those hard things. You're saying even the a lot of the notions we have and are actually making it harder to do the hard things, that we can do the hard things in a more efficient manner. Exactly. I think what it is, and you know, it's almost like this the title and then the book is it's almost like rich Roll told me this is the title is almost like the Trojan Horse, and that Yes, I'm saying do hard things, but I'm not saying go beat your head against a brick wall. I'm saying, do hard things.

But the way we've traditionally approached difficult things isn't the best way to learn from, navigate and get through life's challenges or difficulties. Well, that's because there is a reward system in place in certain communities for doing hard things the hardest way possible. Yes, So that is in and of itself the reward in certain communities. You must expect there are certain communities that would read your book and not like your book. But you can't. You can't please everyone.

You can't and there are going to be people who read this and are like, oh, my gosh, what are you talking about. But that's why I think I tried in the book to give examples from Again, even the military, which is often thought of as this common you know, this community is like, oh, we just put our head

down and run through brick walls. But you know, the US military is the nation's largest employer of sports psychologists, right Why because they recognize and realize that if we're going to do difficult things, we need to teach, you know, how to cope with struggles. We need to teach how to cope with adversity and strength. We need to teach people how to build confidence or how to navigate that

inner voice or whatever have you. All the different skills that we have, and it's part of the military's curriculum. So my answer is to some of these traditional you know viewpoints, is well, if the people who are doing maybe you know, one of the most difficult things in the world and have a very kind of macho culture are employing these tactics and techniques to get better, Why

aren't you. Another thing that I'd say as well is if you look at some fascinating research, one of the reasons the military employees' stuff is because it works, and also because they base these problems to the nth degree. There was a fascinating study that looked at people going elite you know, special forces, going through going through survival training, simulated survival training, and it was something like ninety six

percent of them experienced disassociation. Wow, which is you know, and these are the train the best of the best, so they're sitting here. How do we get these people to be able to keep their mind essentially steady and deal with this chaos? Well, it's the techniques that we know from sports psychology, from humanistic psychology, from positive psychology. There's been a lot of work in positive psych cology in the military. So all of these things work even

in the most you know, macho of macho cultures. Yeah, yeah, Well let me ask you. I was very impressed to hear that you ran almost a four minute mile. What was it? Four minutes five seconds? What was it? What was your best time four minute and one second. I mean that's incredible. I mean that's really incredible. And yet even with that, he wrote something on Twitter like I just I can't break that four minute boundary. It's hard.

It's like, dude, how many people, how many people in any generation can run a four minute one second mile? It can't be certainly not in the hundreds of thousands. No, No, it's definitely not. No. Holy cow. So well, first of all, congratulations, that shows that you have put the work in dedication towards something. When did you do that? How many years ago? Oh?

A while ago? My best was actually when I was eighteen, I ran four oh one, and then after that and the decade after that, I ran everything from four one to four h three to four or five. So I was spent a lot of time right in that low four minute barrier time. If you like, if I said go run right now, you know this is like you just run out your door and you just run a mile, how fast would it would it be? Right now? Gosh? I would probably say like four fifteen maybe. Wow, that's

that's how old are you? Thirty seven? Yeah? So was there a point in your life where you're like, wow, maybe I can be a competitive runner, like you know, like like, was there a time we were aspiring for even like Olympics? Oh oh yeah, absolutely. I mean especially in my early years in high school and college, that was absolutely a goal and something that I aspired to. But it's you know, it's one of those things where you work really hard and you see what you're capable of,

and I was. I was just a little bit shy of that maybe Olympic level a couple seconds shy, Okay. So the reason why I bring all this up because I ask you because back then when you ran that fastest time, I imagine you had a lot of these out there, the notions in your head, or these notions that you've chriticized here, and I want you to just be as bluntly honest with me as possible, because this

is really the question. Do you think that if you were enlightened as you are now and you read Steve Magnus's book Do Hard Things when you're eighteen years old, maybe that would have helped you get past get under four minutes? Or would you have been able to get four minutes in one second? With this different way of thinking? Is the way that the outdate all those notions you had that you're arguing against. Did how much did that actually help you or was it necessary for you to

get such an amazing, amazing because you did something amazing. Yeah, that's a good question. That's a great question, Scott. I haven't been asked that, so I think here's my experience. So back then, maybe to set the stage, I was capable of running really fast, but it had to align with you know, I was in the right state, in the right place, at the right time, because when I ran, you know, those really fast times. Yes, I subscribed to those old school notions like I put my head down.

I think I literally threw up, like after most of my races at that point. So I was I was going. But what would happen is I had to go so far into this deep dark well that if if that well was there or happened to be filled on that day, I could do it. I could perform well. But more often than not, what happens is that well is not there all the time. So I would dig deep, you know, try and find that well, and it wouldn't be there, and those traditional tactics and techniques would backfire and I'd

essentially kind of spiral out. Instead of running four h one or four h two, I'd run again four fifteen or four twenty, like I'd run much slower when it wasn't my day. So as I look back, if I think if I had more tools in my toolkit, then I've probably would have been more consistent on figuring out how to perform at a high level, no matter you

know what the circumstances were. And generally if you're more consistent, it's almost like you have more opportunities for that great day to take advantage of it because you're always in that spot. And I think that would have made a big difference in my career. Yeah, thank you, Thank you so much for taking that question seriously and being so

honest nuanced about that answer. I really appreciate it. It's just so it's so fascinating how our goals are can be so like what one man's what one person's accomplishment can be so different another person accomplishment. My goal. These days, I've been trying to see how fast I can run

a half a mile. Oh, that's fantastic. And I've been working like systematically on this, and I'm trying to bump up my app because I reached my personal record the other day was just three minutes and fifteen seconds, which like, you know, look, that's not amazing and objectively, but to me, you know, I cut it down from I started. I start off it was four minutes thirty because I really would like to be able to run like an eight minute mile, so I'm kind of or even even under

eight minutes. Anyway, whatever. I didn't mean to turn the spotlight on me, but it's just so interesting because like that, that was an accomplishment for me the other day when I ran a three minute thirty second half a mile, I was like, yeah, I got my personal best, you know, And I don't know, at the end of the day, isn't that what it's all about, is just keep getting your own personal best. I mean, I obviously that won't get you to the Olympics, so that can't be what

it's all about. But I don't know, I don't know. My point, No, it made me feel alive. I mean, the Olympics. I think there's a brilliant lesson to that. Though. Please save this say this. No, first off, congratulations because that's a very difficult thing to do. No, matter that just pushing that boundary for a half mile is very difficult. But I think there's a brilliant lesson in this is

that it's relative to you. So for you, three and a half minutes is a great performance right now, and you should celebrate it and you should get that confidence from doing that. Things for me, like the barrier might be different, and the brilliant thing or the interesting thing as I age, as we all age, that barrier is

going to shift. But it's about like doing something that is a little bit challenging where it's like, hey, you know, I'm going to push my boundaries and see if I can get my personal best or the best that I can do right now. And I think there's something brilliant. And you know, earlier we talked about Ryan Holiday and stoicism, but in one conversation I had, he said something great where it was talking about his own running and he's and I was asking him, like why do you run?

And he said, so I can have something that I win at every day. Yeah, oh yeah yeah. And it's like even if you don't set that personal best, to me, it's like it's a win because it's like, hey, I'm doing this difficult thing that and striving for something that I've never done before. And whether that never done before is a four minute mile or an eight minute mile, it's still quite accomplishment to do something that you know a month or year ago wasn't possible. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And I also, yeah, I bond with with your home slice Brad Stolberg. He is your home slice, right, Yeah, yeah, homeboy. I bond with him over weightlifting and nerd out with him about that sometimes because it does feel like a win when you can kind of get a little bit more weight and that's like very like tangible quantifiable improvement feels good. Yeah. Again, I think there's just something to it.

It's like it doesn't have to be exercised, but it leads to lifting, running, It just leads to something where again it's tangible and you can literally sit there and be like I wasn't capable of this, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and it just makes you feel good. Absolutely, So let's jump into pillar three, respond instead of react. Now, this is probably the closest thing to Ryan Holiday stoicism. I mean, some of this is out of his rule book.

Keep your mind steady, right, So talk a little about this. Yeah, So, I think often what happens is when we go through challenging times, we often do what I call is react, like you're just like, how do I escape this moment or how do I fix this as quick as possible? And what I'm advocating for is almost a little bit of like mindfulness, right, is how do we create the space to make sure that we're taking wise action? And whyse action doesn't mean the right decision because we have

no idea what the right decision is. But I think if we can create a little bit of that space between stimulus and response, then we're going to be in a better place to navigate what we're dealing with. And the reason for that is simple is because often when we're going through challenging times, I almost see it as like our brain starts spiraling. It's almost like that snowball, like rolling down the hill, and once it gets going, it's like, oh my gosh, this is really hard to stop,

like it's going towards the direction. But what I try to advocate is, Okay, how do we create a little bit of space or how do we could put a little bit of barriers in that snowball to slow it down just enough so that we can deal with the thing that is causing us trouble. Yeah, it's amazing how much the mind does affect what you're capable of doing and the thoughts you have in your head while you're running,

while you're while you're doing what you're doing. I just I see it so obviously in my own life, you know, if I'm you know, thing was, oh my gosh, I'm sat of breath, like can I make it another? And then I tried another trick the other day where I was like, you know what, I'm just going to look at the ground when I'm running. I'm not going to look up and see how far I have to go.

I'm just going to look at the ground and just basically just like count the specs, you know, And I was able to run so much further to me illustrated something. What did that illustrate to me? Yeah? So that's brilliant because one of the things that again research actually shows is shifting your attention works. It works. Did Yeah, it works. And what they've actually found studying you know, the greatest marathoners, and this applies outside of sport, but it really does

is the greatest Marathoners aren't focused internally or externally. They bounce between and shift their attention based on what works in that moment. So sometimes they might be staring at the ground. Sometimes they might be looking at the at the crowd. Sometimes their focus of attention might be entirely internally on how their body feels. But it's that shifting because what happens, or what they found is we often

get stuck. So if you're looking at the horizon and you're just looking ahead, your brain gets launched onto oh my gosh, I have still so much farther to go? How am I going to make it? If you then shift your attention to the ground, now your brain almost shifts where it's like, okay, I can't see how much further I have. I'm going to pay attention to, like what's going on in this moment? Next step, next step,

next step. So it's just one of these tools that we can use again regardless of what we're going through. And there's some fascinating research that actually ties this to creativity, right where if we take a broad view, literally broaden out our view and look at you know, almost how that panoramic kind of soft gaze versus a narrowed in gaze will be a little bit more creative on again, tasks that challenge that just from changing our attention and

our viewpoint. So I think attention. There's a lot of skills that we can use, but attention is one of these primary things where if we learn how to utilize it and shift it, we're going to be in a better place. That is so true. That is so true. And then let's talk about the last pillar. Let's wrap up here because I'm a big fan of transcendence and I like how you use the word transcend here. Fourth

pillar transcend discomfort. So what what is it? Why is it important to build a foundation to do the hard things in life? So first off, I have to give you credit because I chose this title while I was reading your fabulous book, Scott. I was we were serious. Yeah, we went back and forth with the publisher on all of these like you always do, and I'm like, we were trying wrestling with the right word, and I was reading your book again for the second time, and I

was like, transcend how about that? No idea, I had no idea that. I'm honored. I'm honored. So credit credit to you. But you know, to answer your question, I think so much we think of going through difficult moments, and that could be the loss of the loved one, or grief or deciding to shift a job. We think of them as individual things, but what often allows us to do the difficult thing is our invin and those

around us. So to me, it's going back to, you know, honestly, some of the things you talked about in your book, but it's do we have the rights the right kind of psychological needs fulfilled that allow us to thrive. Do we feel like we have a voice and a choice and autonomy and that we belong and that we have that level of competency and all those things that you know you so greatly illustrate and others. If we have that foundation, we can make it through difficult things. We

can better navigate it. And I think that's that's what it's about. To me, is it's not just you on your on your own on this journey. It's how do you create that environment so that you feel like you can you essentially maybe tie it all the way back to what we talked about at the beginning. Your environment creates that security so that you can take on challenges, maybe even, but you're okay, and I think that's what

it's about. Yes, And I think that your final chapter on finding meaning and discomfort really dove tails really nicely with well the book I have coming on in September. Not to plug my book, but why not on post traumatic growth and how we can all kind of find meaning in the discomfort we've had during this COVID era. So I just saw a lot of great similarities. I just wanted to point that out. Yeah, No, it's it's

spot on that. I'm really looking forward to your book because you know, in researching this I spent I don't know the field as well, but I spent a lot of time looking at that post traumatic growth because it's so true and I think it's often neglected place. So maybe maybe the final chapter will give you a teaser and then you can go for the full buffet when Scott's book comes out. I'll take it. As long as everyone buys your book now so we can all win win.

I'm about positive some games, so love it. Everyone check out Steve's book. I really like it. I tweet out the other day that I liked it, and I don't say and don't do that kind of stuff that often with many books. I really really like Steve's book. As I was preparing for this interview, it dawned me just how similar we are in terms of like and I don't even know what it is like an essence of being is the is the closest I can get to describing, and I think you know what I mean. Yeah, No,

I definitely feel that kindrid spirit, Scott. I appreciate everything you're doing too, and it's it's it's making the world a better place. So thanks Steve. I wish you all the best with the rest of your book tour, and thanks for being on The Psychology Podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com or

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