We exist. First, we're thrown into the world, and then it's up to us to create our essence and authenticity through this lens is a process of creating your essence in ways that you choose. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome philosopher Sky Cleary to the show. Sky is a lecturer at Columbia University and the City College of New York. She's the author of Existentialism and Romantic Love and co editor of How to Live a
Good Life. Her writing has appeared in The Paris Review, Business Insider, ted Ed, and the Los Angeles Review of Books, among other outlets. In twenty twenty one, she was a McDowell Fellow, and in twenty seventeen she won the New Philosopher Writers Award. Her latest book, which is the topic of our chat today, is called How to Be Authentic. In this episode, I talked to Cleary about Simone de Beauvoir's life and how it has informed her existentialist philosophy.
As a feminist during the forties, was passionate about freedom of choice. It's not a surprise, then, that her definition of authenticity also evolves around self determination. Authenticity is not about finding a true self, but rather a process of creating who we want to be. Sky and I also touch on the topics of gender power, social justice, narcissism, and fulfillment. This is a really rich conversation with a
dear friend of mine. I just think the world of Sky and I actually think she's the modern day Simone de Beauvoir. So, without further ado, I bring you Sky Cleary, Sky Cleary. Wow, so good to see you. So good to see you too, Scott. Thanks for having me. It's been ages. It has a propera catchup. Can you see the bar in the background here? Yes, it's great. Okay, yeah, Well, the existentialists loved their cocktails and alcohol. That's in moderation,
of course. What is it about the French existentialist philosophers that grabs you so much? What do you think it is with you that resonates? I mean a lot of things, and I think one of the big things was their emphasis on freedom and responsibility. And I came across the existential philosophers back in you know, a long time ago in my twenties, when I had a lot of questions about life and love and was introduced through some MBA classes to Simunda Bouvois and Jean Paul Satra and some
of the other Nietzchure and Schopenhauer. And I also read a book called Teta Tet by Hazel Rowley, which was all about the relationship with between Beauvoir and Sartre, and I really admired how they pushed back on what was expected of them and kind of created a relationship on their own terms, but while still acknowledging, you know, other people around them to varying extents. But what attracted me most about Simond de Beauvoaw was that she was so
brain in. You know, think about in the nineteen forties she was in this open relationship with Jean Paul Sartre and they're becoming famous. I mean, that was scandalous that. I mean, it still is kind of scandalous to be in an open relationship, but especially back then, you know, eighty years ago, and Surmoundablevoire. She she was just such a brilliant character. You know, she was super intelligent. She
studied at the Sawbonne. She was one of the few women to study there and the youngest person ever to graduate from these from her philosophy studies, and she wrote The Second Sex in nineteen forty nine, which was groundbreaking really and really sparked a second wave of feminism. And so it was this this language, I guess, or framework that they were using to think about the tension between self determination and responsibility and ethics and getting along in
the world with other people. Yeah, we'll get to all that. We'll get to all that. I want to double click on the Second Sex for a second before we get to her other philosophy. I wonder if she would even like the current incarnation of feminism and say that it's taking feminists to step back. I don't know, but I do know. You know, there's a quote she has, a very famous quote from that book, One is not born, but rather becomes woman in one sense that seems very
lined with transgenderism. I'm wondering what your thoughts are where she would be today. I mean, that's a really hard question to answer, and you know, Beauvoir has been drawn upon to I just defend both sides of the argument. On the one hand, she says, as you say, one isn't born but becomes a woman, suggesting that you know, where we're socialized into becoming feminine or masculine, and there is you know, there seems to be possibilities for gender freedom in what she was doing, and she she was
against all forms of oppression. So what I think she would have been looking at is, okay, well, where are people oppressed? Where are people oppressed? And certainly there are lots of hard won freedoms of that the feminism movement
has done. On the other hand, she said, you know a couple of things that can be used against in the transgender debates, such as, you know that a woman is talking about the way a woman is defined, and you know if being born a woman has certain implications for the history that you, I guess collect along the way, and the way that you're treated and the way that you grow up, and so that kind of history of
being a woman that matters. So I am erring towards the opinion that she, if I had to hypothesize, which is really hard, that she would have been definitely supportive of people expressing themselves in ways that they choose and society being supportive of those different gender expressions. Yeah, you could see a really nuanced essay that she would write on the topic, though, because there's a lot of one hands.
On the other hands, you know, there is definitely she you could you could almost reconstruct an essay she'd write, because you know her so well at this point. In fact, I call you a modern day some de Bauvois. So on the you know, the one hand, absolutely, and the idea of rebellion is a great concept. The idea of we should fight against oppression any form is a real message of hers. But I also think that the other hand, is this idea of existence preceding essence does assume that
there does begin some sort of existence. And I almost get the sense that she's saying biological women become women through socialization, but she's not saying any human becomes a woman, like the turtles become women. Actually, this is one of the big questions that she that inspired her to write the Second Sex, which is really you know what is a woman? What does it mean to be a woman? And a thousand pages exactly, And she says like in the introduction, you know what what makes a woman? Is
it her ovaries? Is it having a uterus? Is it wearing a skirt? And she's like, well no, because there are lots of women who you know, don't wear skirts
or don't necessarily have ovaries. And she's also saying that not only that, but often people with ovaries and a uterus are criticized for not being a woman or not being feminine enough, and so there's this socialization, as you say, that occurs, and you know, Bauvoir saw this as sort of these opinions that people are imposing on people with certain organs as limiting our freedom and those you know, our sex organs shouldn't define how we behave or what
kind of career we have, Like she was saying that being a woman with a uterus doesn't mean that you you know, destined to become a mother. She's like, no, let's embrace our transcendence and our freedom. We should be able to make those choices about about who we become and how we create our lives. Yeah, I thought that was so interesting when you wrote about that. How long it took her to answer that question, especially in the
light of Matt Walsh's documentary What is a Woman? I just had that cheeky thought of, like, I wonder if she was in that documentary how she would answer that question. She would say, read my one thousand page damn book, because it's a lot more complicated than you're making it. Matt Walsh, Yeah, and it's I mean, it's interesting to think about her opinions in today's world, which is what I tried to do with my book. But of course
there are limitations on that. You know, we don't know exactly what she would have said, and you know, you think about back then in the nineteen forties, you know, trans identities were like, there were trans people around, and she actually talked really sympathetically about an intersex person who was I guess one of her neighbors lived in the same hotel as she did for a time, and she was.
She didn't write extensively about it, but in the part she does write in her memoirs and in her novel She Came to Stay, she writes about in a really sympathetic way, saying like, okay, so acknowledging like that the torment that in the discrimination that that people can face when they don't fit into the sex binary, well, that's just it. Then I think if anything at its base, we can assume that whatever she would write on the modern day issues would come from a place of justice
and compassion. So that's probably the one thing we can assume. Yeah, I would, I would hope, so I would think that, you know, certainly made make mistakes in her time, but yeah, I think she really tried to be compassionate. Yeah, yeah, oh boy. The idea of authenticity is something we both are absolutely kind of almost obsessed with understanding, like what is authenticity? And I've argued there really is no such thing as a real self from a psychological perspective, And
it looks like someone really would agree with that. You know, that there is no true self. You see that a lot in the in the literature or in the self help world as well. Just all you got to do to be authentic is tap into your true self. It's like, okay,
what is that? Yeah, exactly and yeah and so yes, I've read your excellent article on authenticity and Scientific American and you know, I was also struck by there are you know, a lot of overlaps and for a why Yeah, And it comes back to what you said before about existence preceding essence. So we exist first, we're thrown into the world, and then it's up to us to create our essence and authenticity through this lens is a process of creating your essence in ways that you choose. It's
about embracing your freedom to shape your life. And this is one of the questions that really got me into researching authenticity was all this talk about oh, yeah, just be yourself, just be your true self. And I'm like, yeah, well what is that? How do I even find my true self? Like? Where where is it? You know? How do I look for it? How do I know when I find it? And what if I don't like it?
You know? So all these different questions, and what I appreciated about Bouvoir's understanding was that, you know, shape knowledges where we're fragmentary beings, that we're always growing and becoming more than we are, and certainly we are a synthesis of our past, you know, where the past some of our past actions were also our present selves who are choosing.
But we're also our goals and intentions. So for a boof what, Yeah, it's important to introspect and reflect on the choices we're making, all the choices we have made. But what's super important in with authenticity is how we orient ourselves into the future and how we set goals and pursue them. You mean, transcendent, transcending. Yes. Yes, when I was reading your book, I was just and by the way, I got the privilege of reading your book very early in the process, so this is I've had
to keep it to my chest. I can't. I wanted to just tell everyone all about your book and how awesome it was, but that was way before. Yeah. Yes, but I was struck by a lot of things ring your book. One I already kind of mentioned that I was struck by the congruence between her thinking about authenticity and sort of psychologists and the way they are thinking
about authenticity these days, especially humanistic psychologists. But that's no coincidence because humanistic psychologists really were deeply inspired by the French existentialists, including us well especially rolld. May He tried to take existentialism and put it firmly into the field of psychology, So that's no coincidence. But I was also deeply struck by this notion of transcendence and this notion of authenticity being and getting outside of yourself in some ways.
To me, that's I love that. I couldn't love that more, that notion of authentic So that really struck me as well. And I think that it's not the we person's thinking of what authenticity is. When I think authenticity, they think, well, just doing whatever impulses they feel, or saying whatever they want, And that's not quite right, right, right, Well, what I would say, fine, that's existing. If we're just responding to our animal nature and our impulses, that's part of the
facts of our existence. But we're not only the facts of our existence. We're also freedom, which and we exercise our freedom by transcending and by overcoming ourselves. And her vision was that she wanted everyone to be what she called a pure, transparent freedom, and meaning that she envisioned a utopian world where everybody would be able to surpass the given, surpass the facts of their existence into an
open future of their choosing. And so part of authenticity, becoming authentic, is like taking on this process, because authenticity isn't like a static thing that you can achieve and then you're done. Authenticity is in the intention, it's the action, it's the behavior, it's orienting yourself in authentic ways. But also she acknowledged that, yeah, sure, there are facts of our existence that we can't overcome. We can't choose that
we were born, we can't choose our parents. But what's important from an existential perspective is that we figure out like where that window of freedom is and stretch ourselves towards it and think about how we can choose our freedom and choose who we become. Wow. The trauma, loss, and uncertainty of our world have led many of us to ask life's biggest questions, such as who are we? What is our highest purpose? And how do we not only live through but thrive in the wake of tragedy, division,
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all major retailers. If you're in the UK and Commonwealth, you can pre order now at bookshop dot org dot UK. We truly hope this book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay, now back to the show. So it's almost like authenticity is living up to our ideals of who we want to be. Well, that's one way to put it, and I think ideal Okay, So
that's kind of a term. You know, there is a problem with setting up an ideal of ourself and subordinating ourself to it and treating it like this ideal self as a god that we have to obey. So, but what she was saying is that we need to let's set up goals of our choosing and strive towards them while acknowledging our evolving and acknowledging that failure is a fact of life and that there are no mistakes that we can't move beyond and keep transcending toward towards those goals.
It doesn't even have to be an ideal self. Yeah, I just meant our values, our ideals. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I kind of conceptualized values in a way. But yeah, I know that's how that. Thanks you, Thank you so much for that clarification. So the idea of the vital thing they're being creating ourselves, well, obviously I love that as a creativity researcher, and this idea of creative rebellion, I mean, what a great phrase. Are there that many
phrases in the life that are better than that one? Yeah? I like it too. I like it too. Be rebellion and yeah, I mean rebellion was really implicit in in Beauvoirre's idea of authenticity because I mean, ideally, it wouldn't be Ideally we would be all pure, transparent, freedoms, able to stretch ourselves, you know, in ways that we choose in the world, and other people would be obstacles, but
you know, they wouldn't be oppressors. And because of course, as we kind of go about our activities, we're always bumping up against other people who are trying to do their thing too. But you know, as Beavoire says, as long as oppression exists, we're going to need to rebel against it. We're going to need to push back because you know, we can't truly be authentic until everyone can be authentic. We can't truly be free until everybody is
free because we coexist with others. And if we were trying to be free and authentic and you know, amidst exploitation and oppression, then that's that's a problem because our authenticity comes at the expense of other people's authenticity. And this is why she is also quite different to a lot of the other existentialists, because she focused on this dimension of ethics and really tried to find it. I mean, you've probably heard of Dostoyevski saying if God is dead,
then anything is permitted. I mean, she really tried to push back against against that and saying, well, no, not that it doesn't mean that this is how she founded her ethics in our relationships with other people. Yeah, it's so interesting. You know a lot of people associate the right with the idea of taking responsibility, you know, and a big part of her message is, you know, we act by taking responsibility for who we become. And she also deeply, deeply cares about what a lot of the
left cares about, which is vulnerable populations and oppression. So I love like not thinking about life in either or terms, And I really love the idea that we can really extol the merits of taking responsibility for existence while also really caring for those who are legitimately oppressed, you know, in our society through lots of system wide things that we have set up. And so I just love that nuance.
It's not one or the or the other. And I just feel like in our political disco these days, it's like just everyone takes a polarize aside. Either you're like, oh I care about responsibility, or you're like everyone's helpless and we just need to take care of them. And I don't know, I just think there's a middle ground here, and it was. It's so it's so refreshing to kind of see that middle ground in her philosophy. Does that
make sense at all? I agree, I found it refreshing too. Initially, when before started writing The Second Sex, she she kind of said she wasn't really concerned about oppression so much, she wasn't concerned about political issues so much. But then, you know, we had World War two and then and she also started thinking about about her privilege. And when she started writing The Second Sex and thinking about women's situation and realized that, you know, she wasn't wealthy, her
family wasn't wealthy. She had to go and get a job because she didn't have a dowry, and so but she realized, I mean, she was smart and she was able to get a great eduction, and she recognized that that privilege and used her her privilege and her fame in order to support other women and to fight against oppression.
And she was one of the key instigators of it was called the Manifesto of the Three four Three, which was a petition signed by three hundred and forty three women who had claimed to have an abortion, and that was sort of part of the process of legalizing abortion and allowing greater access to contraception in the nineteen seventies
in France. Wonderful, What would you say was one of her biggest weaknesses if you had, you know, to say, because no one's perfect, right, so if you gave her a full balanced review, what would you say is one thing that maybe she even struggled with in her life. Yeah, well, I mean she struggled with a lot of things, you know. One of the things that frustrates me was Okay, So
she was in this relationship with John Paulsatre. It was a lifelong relaylationship, and she prioritized that relationship above all others, and that had a lot of ramifications for other people. And other people were very because they had an open relationship, right, so, and other people, you know, were very hurt. And she had this agreement with Sartre to that they would be primary lovers and would allow themselves contingent lovers, and so that was all fine and well for them, but it
was extremely hurtful for these contingent lovers. And one of them committed suicide, and you know, so you know, it had really serious implications. And I mean, to her credit, she did recognize this later in her life and sort of said, you know, I think it's our fault and said that she may have been a little overly obsessed
with freedom, especially when it came to other people. So, I mean, that's my greatest heartache, I think when it comes to her, because it seems also in contradiction with her philosophy, which is about being loving and compassionate and respectful of other people. Yeah. Yeah, well, I appreciate you you pointing that out. You know, there's a lot of tensions of being human in a lot of ways you're saying.
You're saying she had human conflicts, and this is an interesting sort of attention at tension between how we create ourselves, how other people influence, how we create ourselves, how we influence other people creating themselves, and how we might collectively recreate the world to orient ourselves towards authenticity. I mean, that's not easy being human? Can we can we admit that? Yeah, it's it's not at all easy and becoming authentic, it's
it's challenging, but it's also incredibly rewarding and exhilarating. It's part of being human. And she said she's not saying that happiness will definitely come from authenticity, but orienting herself in authentic ways, you know, happiness tends to be a side effect of that. And the other thing is that, you know, not transcending, not stretching ourselves in authentic ways is kind of like a metaphysical malnutrition, because you know, otherwise,
going back to existence precedes essence. So if we're not creating our essence, then we're just existing and our essence becomes someone else's creation. And so what's important for why is to really try and become agents of our own lives. And that can be incredibly rewarding. Yeah, it's rewarding. Let's double click and why that's rewarding? Why is it potentially feel more rewarding than just enacting all your impulses non reflectively and just being kind of the whims of your
desires as opposed to intentionally creating yourself. Why is that more rewarding? Yeah, this is a good question. She definitely thinks. You know, if I mean, your life is yours and it's up to you, and I think I can give an example of she wrote a story in when Things of the Spirit Come First. Well, there's a there're a collection of short stories and a male character in there. His name's Dennis. And yeah, he is just at the whim of his impulses. He's just going with the flow.
He believes that nothing really matters, and that he makes promises but they mean nothing to him. And he's a very nihilistic character. And I mean he's not happy. He's not finding life to be rewarding. He's just just at the whim of serendipity, or not even serendipity, just at the whim of whatever comes his way. And so he's not happy. And he also creates a lot of chaos around him and creates a lot of heartache. You know, he is awful to his wife and runs off with
his wife's sister and breaks her heart. And authenticity from Bova's perspective, is about acknowledging our situation and acknowledging that we do have freedom, or not only that we have freedom, that we are freedom and you know, not free to do anything, as I said before, and acknowledging that we have a responsibility, because freedom without responsibility is meaningless, it just evolves into hedonism or nihilism or it's something else.
But existential philosophy is very much about accepting responsibility for our actions and for the world we're creating around us, and acknowledging our coexistence with other people. You mentioned in your book how a lot of people confuse power and freedom, and I'd love for you to unpack that all more because that really, when I got to that sentence in your book, I was like, Oh, I really I want
sky to unpack that more. Yeah. Sure. So, I mean when we talk about freedom from an existential sense, and actually, you know, from a psychological sense too. You know, Eric from talked about this. You know, freedom gets gets thrown around a lot. But you know, when we're talking about freedom, there's there's at least two dimensions of the term. There's freedom from which is what we mean by liberty, you know, freedom from oppression. But there's also the dimension of freedom too,
which is about power. It's about our actions, you know, what are we free to do? So, you know, power is a certain kind of aspect of freedom. So we might be free from oppression, but if unless we're you know, free to act on our on our choices, then that
sort of freedom becomes meaningless. So you know, we might be free to fly, but unless we have you know, the power to fly, unless we have wings, or unless we can get on an aeroplane, then then that freedom does That makes sense, And this is particularly relevant, and I think it's actually also a Diggots. Jean Paul Satra, who is her lifelong partner that you know, he says things like, oh, we're never so free as when we're
in chains. And Bouva's point was like, okay, fine, fine, you're free to think as you choose, and sure, that's important, but what's even more important is to be free to transcend those chains and to be free to make choices about your life, which you can't do if you're in chains. So she sort of takes it, takes it one step further. And that's also where the rebellion element of her philosophy comes in. It must have had so many interesting debates
and discussions and disagreements. You know, they didn't have exactly the same philosophy about the good life, so that must have been interesting, right, And that was what Bouvoir I think she said she loved most about such was that you know, he they talked about all their ideas together and she, I mean, she says, you know, he was as smart as I was, although I kind of think she was probably smart. But you know, beside the point. But the point is that, yeah, they were. They really
inspired each other. They were catalytic muses for one another, and they read all one of another's work and gave feedback on it. And it was really that sort of intellectual friendship that you know Bouvoir loves so much. Yeah. Yeah, it was such an interesting relationship. And I'm so glad you wrote your book the book you did, because I think Jean Paul gets more written about him, and Simone has written about her, and you know, in terms of
biographies and stuff. You know, she used to say, you know, I'm not the philosopher. You know, Jean Paul Sartre is the philosopher. I'm I'm just a novelist. I write essays, and which is you know, one of the big mysteries about Bauvoir, and you know, one of the theories is
that well she I mean think about it. Back in the nineteen thirties and forties, the Sorbonne Philosophy Department you know, there were you know, people who were you know, kind of career philosophers, and you know, she didn't see herself as kind of part of that system of wanting to you know, philosophize academically or you know, she didn't care about writing journal articles. She cared about philosophy and its
application to everyday life. And even in she was even thinking about this way before she met Jump Pulsart, you know, in her student diary she said, my philosophy must be from life. So she was thinking about you know, she'd already studied Hegel and Can't and people like that, and she was like, you know, I don't want to do abstract armchair philosophizing like them. I want to know, you know, how philosophy can can help me live my life in
ritual ways. Yes, yes, and a little more about you, skuy, I should have done that in that of started out out the whole episode with this, because your whole body of work in philosophy is broader than just focusing on simone, right. I mean, you've you've done books like How to Live a Good Life, You've done a lot on female leadership, you know, and uh yeah, like so tell people about how awesome you are, thanks Scott. Yeah, so well, yes,
you're right. I co edited How to Live a Good Life with some friends and that was a collection of essays like looking at different different philosophies of life. My first book was called Existentialism and Romantic Love, which came out of my my PhD. And yeah, I teach at Columbia University and I have had taught I did teach it at Barnard College, but I finished up there now and I teach at the City College of New York as well. And one of my favorite subjects out there
is the philosophy of love and sex. Yeah, that's to such a fascinating topic. Maybe we can get you back on the podcast someday just to discuss that. One returning to this notion of authenticity and the idea that the kind of authenticity that someone was talking about is intertwined with intersubjectivity, can you unpack a little bit what that
word means in this context intersubjectivity. So intersubjectivity is the foundation of ethical relations but between people, and really what it means is mutual respect for one another's freedom and facticity. And it's acknowledging that I'm a subject, You're an object, but also you're You're a subject to you, and I'm an object to you, to you, And but really what it means is acknowledging that other people's lives are as rich and deep as our own, that pain and suffering
is as real as my own as well. And this is where she gets to friendship. And she's like, why why is our world based on you know, domination and you know power, And why why aren't human relationships based on freedom and into subjectivity? Was the key to that if we can acknowledge other people's situations, that other people have their own goals and desires, and that can be a relationship, even if we don't call people friends. But that sort of friendly relationship is the path forward to
a better world. Wow, I wish I wish she was here today to weigh in on some of this. But we have you, We have you in this generation. The idea of authenticity, it raises the question what is inauthenticity? I was wondering your thoughts on whether you think social media is making us inauthentic by the by the kind of definition that Simone had, because it certainly seems so
to me. I think so too, and just to put it in content, I mean, back in Beuva's time, you know, there was no social media, but there were you know, she started up a journal and so there were plenty of magazines, you know. And Beauvoir talked about narcissism as you know, a manifestation of bad faith. And often we think about narcissism as someone's feeling worthless and they're seeking validation.
But Bauvoir saw narcissism as an existential response, as an escape from facing up to our lives and facing up to the reality of our lives, and an escape from
creating our own values and seeking worth for ourself. And you know, she talks about how narcissism is, you know, kind of I mentioned this before, you know, setting up an ideal image of yourself and pretending that you know, think about Instagram profiles or whatever, you the setting up these cohesive, kind of static images of ourselves and making that kind of image like that mask, you know, a
central meaning in our life. And I mean the problem with that is that it's not only misrepresenting ourselves to other people, but it's also risking alienation when we become so obsessed with our worth being defined by other people and forget that where you know, we're complex, fragmented beings. And so for Beauvoir, this kind of narcissism is a crisis of character and it sucks meaning out of our lives.
And although there wasn't social media in Bouvoir's time, she often saw it in She had a lot of friends who were actors and actresses who were kind of seeking this validation on the stage, and she was very critical of that, and she saw it was very superficial. Not not all actors are narcissistic, but what she saw is that when people aren't creating themselves through their art form and treating their vocation of acting as a true art form and rather than just doing it for the fame,
that's when it becomes really problematic. So, well, how do you overcome that? You know? But while we was suggesting that try and release ourselves from being so dependent on other people for our worth and value. And certainly we need other people in our lives. You know, other people are important in that they reflect aspects of our being back to us, and we can learn about ourselves in
and through other people. But she sort of thought, let's try and release ourselves from creating the static image of ourselves and hold ourselves in question. Yes, yes, a thought enter in my head that I was like, oh, that'd make a good tweet, and that's that. Yes, it's true. Not all actors are narcissists, but all narcissists are actors. What do you think of that or do you think of that from axential philosophy perspective? Yeah, I mean, I
guess maybe actors in the broader sense of the term. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's part of what narcissism is, you know, putting on this mask for other hiding ourselves, misrepresenting ourselves. Yeah, highly misrepresenting themselves. Yeah. I love I love all this and I really I really resonated with this philosophy, this idea of the role of genes, though, and what we
know about behavioral genetics, modern behable genetics. I wonder what she would say about creating yourself because we can't complete, we can't create ourselves out of whole cloth, I guess is what I would say. And I don't think I don't think she would say that either, right, Like, surely biological constraints, Yeah, absolutely, I mean that our genes would be what Bouvoirs calls part of our facticity, the facts
of our lives. But what she was most concerned with was, Okay, we're not only the facts of our lives, where we're a lot more than that. And so she's like, where's that? What's that window of freedom? And even neuroscientists are finding that we do seem to have some you know, we are able to say, control our impulses and you know, there are windows of freedom that we can work with. So yeah, there's been a lot of development in neuroscience.
But I think what we're finding is, okay, more about what constitutes the facts of our lives, and that's really important, so we can be more lucid about what sort of freedom we do have and where we can choose. And you talk about how all that is relevant to the various ages of life and different kinds of relationships. You cover our formative years, our friendships, our romantic love, our marriage, motherhood,
not fatherhood, motherhood, aging and death. Why do you focus only on motherhood there by the way, Well, I do focus a little bit on parenthood and the role of fathers, and I think I okay, partly because okay, Bouvoir herself was focusing on women's situation, and in the second sex, you know, she talks about about the mother, and also because I'm a mother myself, and that's an experience I can speak to. And you know, I do talk a little bit about about my partner who is a father,
and you know a little bit about his experience. And you know, that's that's a good criticism of bouvoirs that she she did focus on women. But you know, I'm not sure how far that criticism can go, because you know, she was a woman and she was speaking from her experience and looking at other people's experience, and you know, you can't write about everything, kind of like the all
lives matter argument. Yeah, And because this book is a combination of philosophy and also Bouhoa's biography and my own experience, the emphasis is on motherhood. But also, you know, I have tried to acknowledge, you know, the fatherhood perspective or you know, there's a philosopher, her name's I think it's Naomi Statelen who says that, you know, anyone who takes care of a child is really, you know, taking on
the role of a mother. So I don't know if I agree with that or you agree with that, but yeah, focusing on caregiving. Yeah, that's so interesting. You cover all these different stages of fulfillment, and I'm trying to understand as well how you could septualize fulfillment, because i want to see how that could be similar different than how psychologists think about fulfillment. You know, for the existential philosophers, including Bouvoir. You know, it's not as if fulfillment is
a point that can be achieved. It's like it's a receding goal, or maybe fulfillment only comes at the moment of death, when there is no more becoming. When that's you know, our life at least on this earth is finished. It it's fulfilled. But authenticity is a process of orienting
ourselves toward that. I mean, I'm using fulfillment in kind of the broader sense of the term, not in terms of the notion that where like this empty vessel and we need to fulfill it with oh no, a partner, maybe a kid, maybe some friends and you know, some you know, a house and you know. So it's not like where we're these empty vessels that can be filled and suddenly will be happy. Rather, it's an orientation towards death, and in fact, I'm getting towards Heidiger's notion that we're
being towards death. But Beauvoir said, no, for sure, death forms this kind of natural limitation of our lives. But the authentic project is being towards life. So yeah, it's thinking about how can how can we live? How can we live fully and embrace all of life, all that life has to offer us? Yes, I imagine writing this book for you was an important step on your quest for fulfillment. Yeah, well I think so. Yes. It had a lot of I mean I had a lot of questions,
and no, I still have questions. But I think that it helped me to understand the notion of authenticity better, and it gave me a framework and a language to reflect on the choices I'm making and how I'm creating myself. So yeah, yeah, I hope you feel good about it. I hope you feel proud. Now he's ring and berk, but it's so listening to this episode, are inspired to go out and buy It's called How to Be Authentic?
Simon bar and the Quest for Fulfillment, existentialism and romantic love and honored you came on The Psychology Podcast and I wish you all the best with the rest of your book tour. Thank you so much, Scott, Thanks for having me. It was lovely to chat with you. Likewise, thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thus psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page,
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