Shellye Archambeau || Unapolegetically Ambitious

last thing before we dive into today's episode. If you'd prefer an ad free experience and would also like early access to new episodes, I just wanted to let you know that you can join us at patreon dot com slash psych Podcast. Okay, let's go today. It's really great to have Shelley Arshambeau on the podcast. Arshambau is one of Hi Tech's first female African American CEOs and has a track record of accomplishments building brands, high performance teams

and organizations. Arsen both curly serves on the boards of Verizon, Nordstrom, Roper Technologies, and OKTAH. She's also a strategic advisor to forbes Ignite and the president of Arizona State University. And serves on the board of two national nonprofits, Catalyst and Braven. She's the author of the book Unapologetically Ambitious, Take Risks, break barriers, and create success on your own terms. Shelley, so excited chat with you today. Well, thank you. I've

been looking forward to with Scott. I've been looking forward to it too. It's very exciting. You're a very interesting human being. You said, as an African American woman in my fifties, I don't exactly fit the prototype for a tech industry business leader. That's really super interesting. Why is that? Because if you look around, you don't find many people that look like me and from my background actually leading tech companies. That's why I said that. So why is that?

The question is where the why is? Why is that the case? Or why did I make this statement? You said you don't exactly fit the prototype, and so tell me, like what the prototype is? And that must have been quite take a lot of chutzbas My grandma would say, to really believe in yourself and have that unapologetic ambition, right, Yes, a lot of belief in myself and frankly a lot of cheerleaders around me to help me do that, because it trust me, it's not easy when you say, what

does that profile look like? You know, typically, especially Silicon Valley startups, so many of the CEOs come tech background. I've been in technology, but I'm a sales marketing, go to market person. You don't see many people of color that are actually leading those firms. And with regards to women, you know, find a lot of women either. The good news is there's a lot more now there was when

I first came on board. I remember when Kleiner Perkins hired me to run their portfolio company, and I went to the first CEO event, you know, annually they bring the CEOs together content really, training, development, et cetera. And I looked around and it's like, okay, and I'm seeing

a good mix of people. Until they separated the CEOs from the spouses, and the spouses went off to do some things, and we went off to do some things, and I went, oh MG, not only am I the only black person here, but there's only one other woman that's running a company. Wow. Yes, that's really quite striking. Yes, it was. So hence the statement as a shy, gangly black girl in all white elementary school, so being kind

of the minority is not new. Is kind of like, you know, your whole life and you felt like an outsider, Oh for sure. For sure I felt like an outsider.

And you know, it almost it almost seemed like people wanted to make sure I felt that way, you know, because not only was it that kind of environment, but the period of history this was the sixties, and in the sixties you had a lot going on with regards to civil rights, actually a lot going on in general, Vietnam War, women's rights, somebody was mad about something in the sixties. So as many people that wanted civil rights,

you had just as many that didn't. And people made it known very clearly, you know, verbally, physically, the whole bit, that they didn't really want me around. So I knew if I just did what everybody else did, I probably wasn't going to get much in life. Would you say there was like a core aspect of your personality growing up that was a certain tenacity and know not everyone has that, Like where did that come from? You know? I think it started with competitiveness. I was one of

four children. My parents had four kids in less than five years, so as a result, we grew up very close but also very competitive, so that competitive nature, you know, wanting to win, wanting to get the attention, wanting to you know that all that happens with there a whole bunch of you clamoring all at the same time. So that helped. I think the other thing that helped is

my parents. You know, my parents really tried to give us some tools to be able to manage all this, and at the time it didn't feel like tools, but as I grew older, it was you know, you come home as a kid, something happens, somebody's not treating you right, or you should have gotten an opportunity and you didn't whatever it should come home and you complain it's not fair, right, this happened, that it's not fair. And instead of you know, my parents saying, oh, you're right, it's not fair. That's

a shame, blah blah blah blah. No, no, it was you're right, it's not fair. Life isn't fair. It's like what life's supposed to be fair. I mean it's a kid, right, everybody gets even everybody goes to be fair. Now, my parents were like, no, no, it's not fair. Don't even look for it. It's not fair. So what are you going to do about it? You know? Was the was really the message. It's not fair, so you've got to

decide what you're going to do about it. So I think that lesson combined with the oh, combined with them telling us that it doesn't you know, you can't affect or impact what people say to you or people do to you, but you can control how you respond to what people do to you. So all those things were helpful tools if you will. I as I move forward, because I realized it's bottom line is up to me, and you know, the best way to win back to

being competitive was don't let people control my emotions. If they control my emotions, then they want If they make me feel bad about myself, if they you know, make me insecure or less confident or what have you, then they've won. So don't let them win. You can't control what they say or do, but you can control how

you respond. You have such a great your head on your shoulders as they say, you know, I feel like maybe you were raised right, you know, maybe that's a big part of it is a family, the importance of of parents that can communicate those sort of messages to a child. But you know, a lot of ways. Your mother was like a psychologist, all those things that are like straight out of like the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Technique workbook on how to Cope with life, and you're on

the psychology podcast you're teaching our audience. If you were to ask my mother during those times and this she told me later. She would tell people that she considered herself a professional parent. That was her profession, and so she read a lot. She did live. She she really tried. So you know, you said in your book, like people can't keep asking you how did I get here? How

did I get here? You said, Look, ambition got me here, Okay, Like ambition supported by the conscious choices I made every step of the way. There's sort of like this tension.

They kind of treat like a false dichotomy, like you either on the right and you believe an agency, or you're on the left and you believe in it's all environmental fault, you know, for everything, And I don't know, there's something about your whole being that is so refreshing in this climate that is so poorized and has created what I definitely think is a false dichotomy. You know that like you're what you can't simultaneously try to fix

structural equalities while believing you of agency too. Like to me, I'm always trying to think of ways of transcending these false dichotomies, and I feel like we're we're in a very similar wavelength in that regard. Would you would you agree? I fully agree it's and not or right? Yeah, it seems like it. It totally is, totally is and I'm trying to work our way up here. So you created a life plan in college that would ultimately serve you for three decades, right, for the next three decades? Wow?

Well what a you know, what an enterprising young woman to tell us a little bit about about this. Yeah, well, you know, Scott. Back to I knew I couldn't do just what everybody else did, and I therefore I had to figure out how to improve my odds because I knew the odds weren't in my favor. And what it had proven to work for me is if I set my sights on something and then really focus on all, right, now, how do I make it happen? What do I need

to do, and then actually went and did it. Odds were I actually achieved it, And so I was like, okay, you know this is how it should work. So literally, the question I would ask myself is what is it I want? And I decided young I wanted to run a company. I wanted to be a CEO, and so I said, all right, what has to be true? Right? What has to be true for me to be a CEO? And the answering a question what has to be true is basically doing the research and the homework. I call

it right, So understand how did people get there? What were their paths, what were their roles? What I mean, all those things. Learn as much as I could, but what has to be true? And then the next question is how do I make it true? And it's how do I make it true? That is my plan that turns into the steps of what I need to do to go make all these elements right that I figured out or that I learned true, and then what I

do that I think most people don't. You know, a lot of people will set goals and people will put plans in place, but very few people make decisions every day consistent with their plans. And that is what I did. So I was always assuming that the plan was going

to happen. Now It didn't mean it always did, but I assume the plan was going to happen, and therefore I made decisions assuming it was going to happen, and that allowed me to improve my luck, allowed me to improve the ads that when I actually got to that point, I was. I was ready, right, So in college they were at the time, I thought simple things because I said, all right, what are my goals? Well, I want to run a company. Yes, I would also like to get

married at some point. I also want kids, right, So those are things I want, all right? So what has to be true? Because all you have to do is look around and the few women that did make leadership roles and I couldn't find black women at the time, but few women that did they either didn't have husbands right, or their husbands weren't working or the like I'm like, okay, so has to be true. Well, I need to find a husband that is supportive of what I actually want

to do. And I wanted to get married sooner versus later because I wanted to kids young if I could. So those were all things I wanted to do. So I just assumed that was going to happen, and I started acting like it when I was nineteen plus started saving for my wedding that I didn't know I was to have. So let's talk about some early you know, well some of those early lessons in your life. And I thought some of them were, well a lot of them are really cool, but we can't. We don't have

time to go through all them. But how about find your cheerleaders. There you go. There's so much in this world God that that just tears us down, whether it's overt or very subtle, but we're constantly being judged. We're not we're not good enough, right, we're not tall enough, we're not young enough, we're not technical enough, we're not

whatever it is right. There are all these things that were just not quite and so it's really hard to maintain your confidence right and to truly believe in yourself. And therefore, for me, that was absolutely the case because I had so much imposter syndrome. So I needed people around me that were frankly going to build me up because otherwise I don't know that I would be able

to fight through. And so my cheerleaders, you know, my first cheerleader, we're obviously my parents, but my husband became my biggest cheerleader, you know, when things would go poorly or something would happen. He was the first one to A cheerleader, by the way, can be a you're great, you're wonderful. It can also be a kick you in the pants, not get out there right kind of person.

But you need both. And I think it's really important to have cheerleaders around because it is just so easy to fall into the trap of self doubt and lack of confidence and all of those things because of how judgmental things are. So Yes, I believe everybody needs a cheerleader, and I mean cheerleader rah Rah Ghost Scott ghost Shelley, I mean somebody who's really there for you and it

can make a huge difference. And the good news is, yes, it was my husband, but it's also I have friends, I have, I still have cheerleaders, and I think everybody needs them. I know I could never do it all by myself, and I'm sure there are a lot of us that can't. You know, very few people have thick enough skin and strong enough inner belief and confidence that can withstand anything that happens in life because life is hard. Life is hard. So I'm all about Hey, it's hard.

I want as much help as I can get, and a cheerleader is key, So okay, it can change your whole life around I. I was in special at as a kid, and it just took one teacher to just take me aside and she said, you know, what are you what are you doing here? And I was like, well, no one had asked me that question, so I never dawned in me to ask it myself. Yeah, it's just it's it's we really underestimate the value of even just one right, exactly exactly. You just played that role for

me too growing up. He said, like, don't let them win. Who's them? Them is people who are outside of your inner circle. It's anyone who is trying to frankly, tear you down or not support you or whatever. So it's the them. It's the ones who want to tear away at your confidence, the ones who are going to exhibit microaggressions, right, the ones who are going to it's the people out there that are actually just the opposite of building you up. But they're the ones that are out there that are

actually tearing you down, whether it's conscious or unconscious. And you can't let them win, you know, And they win if they control your emotions. Yeah, and it happens all the time. I mean when I pick, and I get on a board and I can pick, it doesn't matter which one, and people I'll get comments like, oh, congratulations, that's great, it's wonderful that they're improving their diversity. Okay,

Now you can take that one or two ways. You can take that that they mean that, Okay, you got put on the board because you're a diverse caid, right, so you know, only diverse candidates are getting roles right now, and all that kind of stuff which people think and say. So that way, you could view it as they're saying something that's actually trying to undermine me, right, or you can take it as huh, I reframe it. When I

hear things like that, I just reframe it. It's like, hmm, do you really feel so insecure about yourself that you have to make me feel badly about something that I've done? Oh? You poor person. So I just reframe it in my head so that I don't let them make me feel less confident or make me doubt. Wait did I earn it? Did I do this? I mean, it's crazy. Doors have been opened for people for all kinds of reasons forever. You might get a door open because your father plays

golf with somebody at work. Right. You might get a door open because your mother went to that university and therefore your legacy. You might get a door open, But nobody ever says, oh, right, oh, it must be nice that your father did that. Don't say that, because those things are just connections, right. Those things happen quote all the time. Doors open all the time. So we shouldn't let people make us feel less than for whatever reason

a door opened for us. It's what you do on the other side of the threshold accounts Well, I completely agree, And it sounds like you had to really open the doors yourself there in the beginning in the tech industry. I mean, you were the ones who are even you were creating doors to be opened to no one else is that none opened those doors before? You know? How do you have that foresight? How do you have that vision?

One of my favorite psychologists, you, Paul tarns Now, calls it falling in love with the future image of yourself. You know, you fell in love with that future image of yourself. And I'm just wondering, well, how you know

it's interesting. Part of it is competitive. I would tell people what I want to do, and I would do that, so that that also held me accutuble to do it, because the last thing I wanted to do was to show up and when they say, oh, did you do such and such, and I'd say, oh, no, I didn't, right, I'm not doing that. I If I I'm going to

do something, that I'm going to do it. So I actually used, frankly, other people, you know, peer pressure, that competitive peace to actually help continue to push me forward. And that's one of the reasons why I would share my goals and share what I'm trying to do, because then I had a lot of people that were going to hold me accountable to make sure I actually did it. Who are some of the biggest influences in your life early in your you know, who really believed in you,

in the in the tech industry early on. Oh gosh, So I'll focus on Silicon Valley and in Silicon Valley, you know Ben Horowitz, it was an early one. Andy rack Left came out to the first fourth Point North Point was high Speed DSL company. I was running marketing at sales and they went through I was there for only a short period of time because the whole market ended up imploding and they got bought by AT and T. But Andy Rackleff was on the board with Benchmark and

he said, Shelley, I want you at loud Cloud. That was another company who was invested in and introduced me over there, and I ultimately did get hired to be chief marketing officer and then ultimately also EVP of sales. So Andy believed in me. And then Bill Campbell was another one, and he was he was huge, And I mean, I've just been really fortunate, you know, I could, I

could kind of go on from there. I ended up with a lot of people that ended up believing me, believing in me, and being supporters this whole area you strategize for your success. I mean it's a lot of thought whole week, and my head's dizzy. I'm like, wow, you devised your plan. You yeah, prepared for the opportunity to appear. You learn the ropes. How did you foster that self determination? That's a that's a big theme of that whole section of your book, is that, as you know,

there's a self determination theory in my field of positive psychology. Yeah. Absolutely, It's interesting because it wasn't until I was writing the book that I actually did the research to understand it. That's what it was self determination, right, And so what I learned was there basically three things that are key for developing it. So one is autonomy, right, It's just feeling that you actually have ownership over yourself, over your actions, right,

all of that, and that was definitely fostered at home. Right, that was that whole life isn't fair, so what are you going to do about it? Right? Piece? And the second piece that comes to that is competence, which means being able to actually achieve something. It's mastery, right, showing that you have skills. I was a good student and I knew that if I studied something or worked on it, I could I could learn anything. So I had that.

The piece that took me longer to actually create was the relatedness piece, and that's the one that was belonging yep, feeling part of a group, and I never did. I always felt like this outsider. And it really wasn't until I got to college that I was able to begin to develop that and then continued right once I felt it, I'm like, ah, this is what this is this I want, And then I was more conscious about really trying to

find my people, if you will. So yeah, all three are really needed to be able to do that and do it consistently because I made a lot of decisions that people didn't think I should make. So it wasn't it wasn't always easy. Okay, So well, how did you build your reputation? Then? I mean, again the workhos but keeps coming up when I think of you, how did you with all people saying that you're like, you know, but I want to I have this vision in my head and I want to build that reputation. What are

some concrete things? You know, aspiring people in the industry maybe have to overcome hurdles. Listening to this podcast, you know they want to build this reputation. Do you do you have sort of advice from them for your own personal experience? Sure, I mean everybody builds a reputation differently.

I will tell you what's helped me build my reputation is I am someone that tries to help and support others, and honestly, and it wasn't even one of those situations where I shrewdly said, oh if I do this I'll develop a good reputation. Right, It was much more of I try to treat people like I wanted to be treated, because I knew what it was like not to be and therefore I've always tried to be helpful, to be supportive.

I try to make commitments and keep them so if I say I'm going to do something, I do it. So I think that the combination of those two things, I become somebody that people can count on. Well, you get to that stage where you have the crystal clear clarity you're trying to build a reputation, You're kind of the naysayers are kind of like, you know what, I'm not going to listen to you anymore. What is this idea of no second thoughts? Wow? How does one get

to that point? You know, at the end of the day, nobody knows you better than you know you. Unfortunately, Joey, I know too much about my life. Sorry, you caught me in a cheeky mood today. It's all It's all good, you know. So as a result, listen to what people have to say for sure, and analyze it and think through it. But at the end of the day, you have to trust your decisions. Because nobody knows you as well as you know you. And that's that's really what

it comes down to. So this whole notion of you know, no second thoughts and make it, make the decision, move forward, and if it turns out to be the wrong decision, then fine, you'll pivot or you'll make a change. But don't waste energy just thinking, oh my gosh, I really be doing this? Should I not be doing this? Yououl? I mean, just it's much more important just to move forward and shift than to get stuck. You move forward with your values. You know, you talk about how living

your values and just unapologetically ambitious. There's still a humility there, and the sense humility means knowing your strengths. You just say, embrace your limits. But that's an interesting phrasing, right, like embrace your limits? Wait what does that mean? So can you tell people like what that juxtaposition means? Yeah? Absolutely, So what I mean by embrace your limits is there

gonna be some things. I mean, when I was a kid, I actually thought I wanted to a kid little not in high school, but I thought I wanted to be a pilot, right, But then it turns out pilots at the time had to have really good eyesight, and I had terrible eyes sight. So you know what, that's not happening, right, So I get to spend a ton of time ruminating and being upset and the whole bit. But bottom line, it's not happening. So they embrace the limits. Okay, that's

the limit. Move on, find something else in terms of that you can that you can do, or that you can go after. The other is, don't continually beat yourself up for your limits, right. I mean, so they who embrace your limits are I used to tell my kids all the time, everybody's a package. Everybody's a package. I'm a package, Daddy's a package. Everybody's a package, which means there're gonna be wonderful things about us, and they're gonna be things that you wish didn't come with the package.

But you know what, you don't get to pick what's inside the package. You just get the overall package. So its embrace your limits thing is really your your package. So if that's your limit, Hey, that's that's your limit. That's my say, focus on your strength. You're a positive psychologist over there. Yeah, I mean that's a I mean, this is so much. What you're saying is is so in line with the latest research in my field. So that's so cool. I'm I don't know if you knew.

I'm a humanistic, positive psychologist, So good stuff. Tell people what you want? Is this the importance of asserting yourself and kind of not being a shamed unapologetically asserting your needs, you know, telling people what you want? It's not quite And actually, let me before I answer that, let me talk about the title for a minute. Can I talk

about the title? I would hope you would wonderful? So the unapologetically ambitious, let me let me define these words as I see them right first, because when I say unapologetically ambitious, I'm not telling people to go out there and get in everybody's face, right, not apologetically ambitious. I'm going to be CEO, get behind me right awful, full steam ahead. That's not necessarily what I mean. What I

mean is it is absolutely fine to be ambitious. And by the way, ambitious it doesn't mean you have to want to be CEO, doesn't mean you have to want to be a pilot or whatever. I mean. Ambitious just means there are things that you want to accomplish. They can be things at home, they be things at church, they be things in the community, they can be things

at work. It doesn't matter. But you have things that you actually want to accomplish and do, and if you do, then you're ambitious because you're driving to have an impact and make something happen. The unapologetically piece is you don't have to apologize for it. It is okay. It is absolutely okay to be ambitious. It's okay to want to strive and to do things. But too many people are told they're ambitious and it's not meant as a compliment.

And that's ridiculous. Right when you told people you wanted to be a CEO and people like, nah, I don't think you should do that. That's crazy. I'm all about if someone has an ambitional let's help them get there. It seems so absurd. It is it is you would You would never raise your child. You never say, oh, go work hard, get good grades, you know, put in the extra effort. But oh, oh, don't be too ambitious. We never do that, but we do that to people

all the time. So anyway, so that's so they unapologetically ambitious, you know, that's what it is. Yes, be ambitious. You don't have to apologize for it, just go after it. This whole notion of tell people what you want is really meant to unleash the fact that there are a lot of people in this world that actually are very happy to help others. But you can't get help for what you want to do if people don't know what

you want to do. So tell people what you want and give them a chance to actually help you to contribute. You know, so many people wish and hope, right, Oh, I hope I get that opportunity, or I hope they pick me, or I hope this. Well, people can't read your mind, and then when they don't, you get upset. But they didn't know you wanted it, and maybe the other person they knew that they wanted it, So you

have to put it out there. You know, we can't always predict where life is going to go, right, and you try to make the right choice at the right time when you try to live your life with regrats right, But you know, how does staying connected relate to this resiliency aspect? You know, stay staying connected and connected with people, I think it's been really important to me, So I even refer you know, my network, my close network, I

refer to as my village. They are what keeps me propped up, you know, they are what helps me be able to do the things that I do, and I count on them. So this whole connectedness piece is a critical part of my personal success. You know, you're much less likely to be able to form new supportive connections in the industry. No, that's true, but I actually see I see it a little differently too, though, Scott. And that let me tell you how I define a network.

I define a network as comprising people who will do it, will do you a favor when it is not convenient, all right, A lot of people who it's easy, you know, sure I can help. I can do that, right those skin off my back, no time, no effort whatever, when it's time, when it's effort, the people who are willing to do that. That's a real network. That is my village,

and that is more than just reputation. Those are real relationships where both parties feel they are getting value right from that relationship, and those take you know, time, effort, focus on all of it absolutely in terms of develop So you know, to me, a network has never been how many people I have in my contact list. It has been all about, you know, the people that I

feel out there that actually care about me. This idea of you deserve it, well, you know, there's an there's a kind of like a theme just as of reading your whole book, and I'm like, you do a really good job not going into the territory of narcissism, but yet still maintain the importance of being confident and having ambition. It's a very unique space this book that you wrote, because you you often see these kinds of books. Sometimes

they veer too much into like one direction another. Sometimes they'll veer very much in the narcissistic direction of like you're the greatest, you know, like it's not you deserve it, but you're entitled to it. And there's a there's a subtle difference there. And I think you told that line very well. So can you a little bit? Can you talk a little bit about that chapter you deserve it? Yes, you know, at the end of the day, your your hard work, your focus, right, all that all that you do.

When good things happen, when a promotion, opportunity comes by comes your way, right, or a door opens for you or you're inviting into the room whatever it is you deserve for that to happen. Don't be apologizing or excusing yourself or making yourself small. Right when those things happen, you wouldn't be invited in in the first place if they didn't think that you belong there. So remember that.

And if you forget and you're feeling like, oh my god, I don't think I should either take this opportunity, or maybe I shouldn't join this group, or I shouldn't da da da dah, go find your cheerleaders. So when you need your cheerleaders who are reminding you, yes you do, yes you can, you know, I mean, don't don't let

those things stop you from doing things. And so the whole you deserve it piece is it's counter to it's counter to a lot of other messages that come to people, especially people who have been disenfranchised in one way or the other, which is just you know, you should be you should be happy that you're that you're here, you know what I mean. You should you should feel like you are you're lucky or fortunate, like it's like somebody

has given you a gift and it's not right. You're absout right, and I'm glad that I'm glad that you framed it in that sort of way. Is like, you know what I mean, how some of this stuff ken veer into this territory where you're not grounded in reality anymore, you know, and you just think that you're all about like working for it, you know, you're about in owning it and having that that autonomy. So I can I really get on board with with your vision of humanity?

So improving your odds? You say, find the current? What's the current? What is this you're talking about? Yeah, it's the current of power, you know, it's the path to power. When when I joined IBM, my original goal was I wanted to be CEO, and I picked tech and so I picked IBM, which was like the Apple or Google of its day, and said, great, I'll go be CEO IBM. So I did the research and every single CEO started out in sales, and I said, all right, then that

must be the path. So I started as a salesperson. And it wasn't that I was in love with selling. A matter of fact, my friends thought I was crazy. Right. Another other thing, Shelley, you're gonna what you're coming out of Wharton and you're going to sell computers. Nobody does that, right, They're all going off to be investment bankers, PNG product managers,

international analysts, I mean all kinds of things. And I picked sales because that was the current, and I followed the currents like, okay, so what's the role, what's the job? I worked my way all the way to Japan International Assignment because every single direct report to the CEO that

ran ALIGNE business at International Experience. I mean, if you if you find the path to power, you know, which is basically what is the career path that others took in front of you, and learn from that, then I just always felt that if that's the path that others took, then that's a well worn path. So that if I like be on a current, if I work hard, I also get the propelsion of my own work, but then also the propelsion of the current itself because I'm in

the right place. So that's what I mean by buying the current. The path to power, Yeah A good A good kind of power, not the kind of power that you have control over others, but where you make an impact on the world in a positive way. Yeah, Yeah, it's very clear. It's very clear that's the kind of power that because we see in these days some other kinds of power. Okay, so a lot of this is just to wrap this all all up in This was

my last of question. You know a lot of this thread running through your book is really about planning, right, It's like a life planning, one on one kind of kind of book, and really showed me the value of yeah, especially with some certain demeans of my life, you know, really sitting down and thinking it through and doing whatever you can to improve the odds, because that's that's all

we can do, you know. And I love your your your whole spirit of this of acknowledging certain things are the way they are, you know, but there are certain things I can do to uh, to improve the odds and nevertheless, even even with all these societal impediments in my way. So thanks so much for coming on the show today, Shelley and inspiring so many people. Well, thank you very much Scott for having me. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast.

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