Seth Gillihan || Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Made Simple

Doctor Gilahan is a licensed psychologist who has written and lectured nationally and internationally on cognitive behavior therapy and the role of the brain in psychiatric conditions. His books include The CBT Deck, A Mindful Year, three hundred and sixty five, Ways to Find Connection and the Sacred in Everyday Life, Cognitive Behavior Therapy Made Simple, and Retrain Your Brain, Cognitive

Behavior Therapy in seven Weeks. Doctor Gilhan also blogs for Psychology Today and hosts the weekly Think Act B podcast, which features a wide range of conversations about living more fully. He has a clinical practice in art More, Pennsylvania, WOO where I was born and raised, providing treatment to adults with insomnia OCD, anxiety, depression, and related conditions. Find him on the web at Sethgilhand dot com. Hey Seth, so great to chat with you today. Well, thanks a lot

for having me, Scott. I'm looking forward to this. I am so psyched. I I'm expecting you to cure me of every one of those ailments by the end of this podcast chat, as well as all the listeners. Well, we'll have to figure out what to do with the rest of our time after we do that. Yeah, what do you do when like you're living your life fully? And then what do you do after that? Well, you know, maybe we'll get into some of that today because I think I just jumped right into the deep end my feeling.

A CBT has lots of offer matter where we find ourselves in the depths of despair or if things are going pretty well good. Well, I can't wait to get your philosophy and hear everything from your perspective today. I know it'll be very enlightening to our listeners as well as well as to me. So let's start with something that I thought was really interesting that I read about you, That you started an academy. I think you were an assistant professor at Penn, correct me if I'm wrong, and

then you had some sort of awakening. Could you please talk a little about what that what that awakening was. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to. So I I guess you know, what really drew me to psychology was wanting to be a therapist. So that was my initial kind of entry. And so I did a counseling program for a couple of years, and it was fully intending to just you know, do to your program and then and then treat people clinically. But I really got pulled into the science of the

brain and of anxiety and depression, especially cognitive neuroscience. So I decided I wanted to pursue a PhD and deepen my understanding of the brain and of how these treatments, especially cognitive behavioral therapy, actually work, why it is that they're so effective. So I really went down that road

for gosh, I guess a decade or more. I guess from two thousand and one or so, when I started my doctoral program at Pen until twenty twelve, when I left my faculty position at Penn to start a private practice and to do full time teaching for a while. So I guess I still remember I think I was riding the bus from my internship back to my classes at George Washington University around two thousand or so, and I read an American Psychological Association what's the what's their

main psychologist? Yes, yes, as an American psychologist. Article about it was by Richie Davidson. He was receiving some award and writing the summary of his research. And I was totally pulled into that and just felt so much excitement that we were right on the brink of understanding exactly how the brain works and being able to use that knowledge to develop better treatments. And over the course of my graduate career, my feeling came to be that that

was not the case. That the work I was doing, you know, with brain scanners and trying to understand how genetics affects brain activity were not translatable into clinical treatments.

They weren't making treatments better. They might understand it might help us to correlate changes in the brain with certain treatments, for example, what wasn't going to change what I did with someone clinically to understand what was going on in the brain, and we certainly didn't know what was happening in individuals, and these were group based studies group bakes differences, so so it was kind of a I don't know if I had a but I did have one kind of epiphany at the end of a yoga class D

kind of cliche as one does, as usually happens, so, you know, lying there in chavasa at the end of the class, and it just it just came to me in an instant, like, I can't stay in this position. This is in my faculty position at Panna oh, not the yoga position. I could have stayed. That's what I thought you were saying. I can't stay in the downward facing yoga pos dog dog post the rest of my life.

That was That would have been true. I could have stayed in chavasa for a lot longer because getting up meant taking show and going to work, so I could hung out there. But but yeah, I realized I can't stay in this, in this faculty position, And and right behind that realization was the recognition that's exactly right. Of course, why did I ever think that I could that this was the right fit? Because another I mean, I can,

I can keep going on. I want to. I want to give you a a chance to jump in here, but no, I want to hear this. It was a it was a gradual unfolding. I mean, another I guess moment that that stood out was I hadn't gone to classical music concerts for years because you know, we had kids, and then just it didn't really stopp being a part of

our lives. And then I went to one in suburban Maryland with my in laws one night, and when the violin soloist was, I was playing, and it just struck me, what an amazing thing of beauty that is to create? And and I guess in my in my self focused way, I then thought, what kind of beauty have I added to the world? And I thought, it's certainly not the research that I've done. It's not adding lines to my CV for publications and book chapters. And I was kind

of drawing a blank. But then what came to me is kind of this I'm going to date myself, but but kind of a rolodex of faces of people I'd worked with through the awful traumas that they had survived and treating them for PTSD. And and I thought, if there's any anything, anything of actual value that I've done in this world. It's been in that intimate connection of working with people, the healing work of therapy and being

witnessed to the to to their to their recovery. And so that was another point I was like, all right, this is this is not I'm not living my life though in the way that feels most true to who I am. Well, yeah, it sounds like you're a clinician through and through, not a research academic solely or even

at all. Yes, yeah, yeah, that's I think that's exactly right, and and I think, I mean, I'm glad I had that experience that I have the background in clinical science, and I think and I think probably a lot of people can relate to this. When when you're doing something and it's going pretty well, people are telling you, oh, you know, this is great, this is exciting. You know you should you have a real future here, you can

keep doing this. It's really easy to just keep doing that, even if there's a part of us that's saying like, I'm not really sure that this is my destiny, right, yeah, and our destinies can change throughout our lives. Yes, that's right. Just about as soon as I feel like i've yes, this is it, then Yeah, things start to shift. So now you did your graduate work. Was it with Rob Darubis or was that your post doc? You know, I

actually I worked with Rob clinically for three years. I did a three year cognitive cognitive therapy practicum with him, and he was on my dissertation committee and I was part of his lab for my whole time there sort of a I would sit in on the meetings, but we never actually did any research together. Well, I suspect that that's how Aaron Beck knows you. Yes, he's mentioned you a couple of times, and well he's a fan

of yours. I'm sure you know. It goes in both directions, and I mean more than a fan he I mean his description of cognitive therapy was what drew me to CBT to begin with. And again, these moments that stand out. I remember in the the Gelman Library at George Washington University, late at night, reading an article that he'd written, an interview where he described this approach that sounded to me so intuitive and and something that I mean and so

respectful of the person. You know, there weren't some secrets here, the esoteric knowledge that the therapist guarded, but the these are basic principles that have been around for thousands of years that anyone could understand and apply in their own life. And so so yeah, I've been I've been a fan of his really from that moment, and so much of what I mean, so much of the book that he

said such nice things about. It's based on his work, Yeah for sure, but you do you do, you know, you extend it in some meaningful directions, not to sell yourself short. And you know I made contact with it. I'm talking about Cognitive behavioral Therapy made simple. That's the book I'm talking about in particular that he recommend. Actually, we were having a lunch with some other colleagues and stuff, and we're thinking how that should be a first year

required reading for all incoming college students. Actually, so there was a broader discussion about the use of that book. But then I checked out that book and I read it, and I just it was so well, it's so well put together all these different elements. One element I noticed is a common theme in that in that book as well as in your work, is what some call maybe

the third wave of CBT or mindful CBT. I saw that as I really like that add on you know, like I'm a big fan of that add on, and I was wondering if could talk a little bit about that, then what's the first and second wave? Yes, yeah, I'd love to. I should mention too that the cognitive neuroscience work that ended up doing at Penn, I was working closely with doctor Martha Farah. She she was my Supervisor's amazing, Yes, yes she is. She is, so, I mean she knows

she's done that that kind of work. And then obviously she started out in visual work and now is doing neuroethics and really has defined multiple fields within within cognitive neuroscience absolutely, So yeah, you know, it's it's interesting because I came to CBT and mindfulness in that order, you know, initially with cognitive therapy, working a lot with Rob and really focusing on on how our thoughts affect our behavior and our feelings, and how central our interpretations of events

are to the way we experience reality and to our well being, and into a lot of the conditions that people end up coming to therapy for, like anxiety and depression. So I was really focused on cognitive therapy, but then I did a lot of work in anxiety and really got immersed in behavior therapy, so more of an emphasis on the way that our our thoughts and our feelings

are often driven by our behavior. So there are these intimate connections among thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and facing our fears is one of the most effective ways not only to decrease the fear, but to change our thinking. I get a perverse enjoyment out of facing my fears, is that right? Yeah? I feel like it like at this point, now I just go right towards it and then like it makes me feel like I've overcome something like big yes. Yeah, yeah.

And when we decide to do that, it's there's kind of I feel like there's nothing else that can stop us. If we're determined, like I'm just going to face my fear, then what else is there? Really? Yeah? So well said very well said yeah, I appreciate that, but yeah, there

is there is something. I mean, there are there's some studies showing that if you if you change, if you focus on changing behavior and then you compare that to focusing on changing thoughts about things that people are afraid of, some studies find you actually get more more change in thoughts people have if you change their behavior versus trying to directly change their thoughts. I love that. I love

that about your book. You talk about behavioral activation. I think that's what you're talking about right now, you know, and I as a theme as well. I mean really like your book has a lot of add ons, you know, to the standard CBT model. Like you know, it's you level up. Hi, everyone, just wanted to take a quick break and talk about my new book that's coming out April seventh. It's called Transcend The New Science of Self Actualization.

Really excited to present this book to you all. It represents the culmination of many, many years of hard work and synthesis. What I've been what I've done in this book is I've taken Maslow's classic Hierarchy of Needs and I've revised it for the twenty first century, trying to bring back humanistic psychology. I think that the field of humanistic psychology in the fifties and sixties really got a lot right about humanity and the creative possibilities of humans,

as well as the humanitarian and spiritual possibilities. Really hoping this book can present a vision of humanity that transcends us all and helps us connect deeper with each other, but also help us reach our greatest potential individually and collectively. So if you want to check out this book, you can actually pre order it right now on Amazon as well as other there's independent bookstores I think you can pre order it from and then on April seventh. Starting

April seventh, that should be in bookstores. A lot of people in wondering throughout the year is how they can support me and the Psychology podcast, And here's the time. You know, you're always welcome to contribute money to the podcast, help support it. If you're a longtime listener or even short time listener, you want to not only support the podcast but dive deeper into a lot of the concepts and ideas we talk about constantly on this show. This is a great way to do that by buying this book.

So please check the book out and let me know what you think. The aspects, the aspects of the sort of the mindful combination with the behavioral activation. Now that's a unique combination, I thought, because so much of the CBT has talked about being mindful to your your thinking errors, and you talk about the thinking errors, but sometimes changing your behaviors first will automatically change the thinking error, like

the thinking areas can automatically be maybe even quiet. Would you say that's that's right, Oh yes, definitely, definitely, yeah, yeah, So and I and I came to mindfulness third. You know, while I was doing this the position of the Anxiety and Trauma Treatment Center at PEN and it initially I thought of it as as you know, as another tool.

It's it's you know, as you you say, to kind of add on to you know, if the cognitive work isn't as applicable or as effective for a conditioner for a particular person, or if you know, like with generalized anxiety, it's mostly about worry. Its not so much about avoidance in such an obvious way as it would be in something like a phobia. So I found it helpful there.

But I also, from my own personal practice with it, found that for myself clinically, I felt like I was selling short what the what mindfulness practice really is really has to offer, because it felt like it was a kind of like a hack, like here's a here's something else to put in your toolbox. But but I think, but there's I think it can be a lot deeper than that. And so I've even since the CBT Made Simple book, I've I've been thinking more about I mean,

because you know it is. Mindfulness is considered the third wave of CBT, but I kind of treat it as like the third wheel of CBT, like here's this extra thing if needed. But I started to thinking of it more as what I what I'm aiming for is more of a mindfulness centered CBT, that that mindfulness, and it's not even I was trying to draw it out. I was trying, you know, like the triangle of thoughts, feelings,

and behaviors. I was thinking cognitive, behavioral and mindfulness, but it didn't fit the way I was the way I was working with it. And what it seems to me to be is actually that cognitive and behavioral are happening

within the context of mindful awareness. And so anything that we're doing, any kind of cognitive or behavioral intervention or just being present ourselves, being with someone in therapy, is enriched by approaching it from a point of mindfulness, from a deeply connected place to our just who we are. That kind of connection I think of mindfulness is just really coming into connection with the truth of who each

of us is. I love that description of mindfulness. I don't think I heard you say what the first and second wave or explicitly? Oh right, oh sorry, Yes, So the first wave, starting the fifties or so, was behavior therapy, and then I followed in around the sixties, especially with Aaron Veck's work and also with the work of Albert

Ellis and others, was cognitive therapy. And then those two were integrated kind of as both sides realized that they were just closely connected, like when I learned what was called cognitive therapy. The first real intervention was behavior monitoring, like activity monitoring and scheduling activities into a person's day,

which is a pretty straight behavioral intervention. So the treatments behavioral and cognitive therapies were already so closely linked that then it became, at least in hindsight to me coming later, it seemed inevitable that they would be joined into cognitive behavioral therapy. Absolutely. So you have developed this approach think act be now it shouldn't be act think be based on what we just talked about. Did you get that wrong? The order or the order there, Well, it's funny because

it does. It's too bad that our brains can't can't take them all in instantaneously. I mean then simultaneously, you know, because they are That's not a sequence. It's not a sequence, no, but it does give that impression. At first you think and then you act right, and then you can be. People all that because PEO will all these these acronyms and things, people expect it to be sequential. That's right. Yeah, maybe you should be Maybe should be think ACT be

integrated like like dot dot does something like to synthesized. Yeah, I mean you could call it TAB. Maybe that we abbreviate them. Maybe they come together quickly, but but yeah, yeah, and and chronologue chronologically. For me, I guess it was think ACT B, but really I think where I. I just put it together that way because of the just the way that it sounded on my ear. Cool. Well, talking a little about those three components. We we haven't talked so much about the think one, So maybe we

should talk a little about that. If you're okay with that, you know, what are some of the core beliefs that might be getting in our way? What is and what is a core belief anyway? What does that mean? Right? Yeah? Yeah, so we don't usually realize it. But we're telling ourselves stories all the time, stories about and of what's what we think is our reality. So you know, you and I might be having this conversation. I'm thinking Scott's really bored by what I'm saying right now, and I'll just

think like that, that's an observation I've made. That's not true. Well see, and so I and I could be mistaken, and you could tell me that, you know, And if I and I could, I could doubt that. I could think Scott's trying not to hurt my feelings. Right we can, right we can? And and again misinterpret that as as something like, oh, yeah, Scott's wearing a blue sweater. He doesn't like me, like, these are his hair too today? Do you notice that I do? Yes? Yes, again, it

looks great at it? Uh and it goes well with your sweater, thank you. That's I was doing. That's what I was doing going forward? Yeah, yeah nice? Is it new? The blue hair? Uh huh? Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to live my most self actualized life these days and then trying to enable others and inspire others to live their most self actualized life. So I think very cool why not. Yeah, I thought of dying my my hair blue, but I don't know, I have no idea where my hair is.

Die your scalp blue? Has anyone? I mean, would that'd be creative? I've done that. I don't know. I could rebrand myself think act blue fact blue scalp, or you could like dye your beard blue. I could, yeah, yeah it hair has to go somewhere. Yeah, but yeah, you know, we we interpret these these things that we're telling ourselves. We mistake them for reality, We get caught up in them, and so for for in my work, the way I approach it, so much of cognitive therapy really is just

noticing that we're telling ourselves stories. Just noticing not even I mean, it's we can get into it really kind of being explicit about what some of the alternative explanations are. I mean, example would be if I'm working on a book and I'm thinking to myself, like, oh, this is not going to turn out well, this is I'm never going to get this read, and like that becomes a story.

And if I recognize like, oh, I'm telling myself this story now, then I have a chance to question it, like oh okay, all right, well, maybe that's not true. Maybe there's another story that's true. And I don't have to convince myself. I don't have to kind of hold myself down until I say mercy and say, okay, I believe. I believe it's going to be great, it's going to

be a best seller, everybody's gonna love it. I don't have to brainwash myself and they're trying to believe something that I'm just not there, but but just recognizing like, oh wow, I'm really having a story now about I'm not going to be successful, Like that's all right, that's

that's a narrative. Maybe more belief is that a core belief, So it could be, it could be, it could underlie that's so a core belief is when you have a bunch of thoughts that all kind of lead to the same place, like my book's not going to be well received, nobody's gonna like my podcast, I'm not gonna be able to help my my therapy clients. Then those are all

they're probably coming from the same route. Those are all kind of shoots that are coming from something deeper, which is about like I'm not going to be effective in the world, or I'm not going to be good at what I do, and maybe there's something deeper than that, Like I'm there's something about me that's not adequate that often underlies a lot of it, right, kind of for a pervasive sense, I'm just good and that's that's really.

I do find that really heartbreaking, you know, when when when even students, you know, come in to my office hours with these sorts of things. And I don't think there's anyone who on this earth where that's true or the totality of their being is inadequate. Like, I don't think that empirically, even objectively, that would could be the case. No, No,

And I agree with you, Scott. I think heartbreaking is exactly the right word for it, because it is it is so far from what's true, and yet such a common belief that we get so disconnected from what's true about us that we believe the opposite of what's true, that we have no worth versus the fact that I mean, if I mean, the way I see it kind of in broader terms, is that the universe makes space for us, and I don't think it would if there there were

zero value to our existence. Yeah, I think that's a really a great way to put it. What if, based on someone's prior history of evidence, though they do have evidence for something negative, you know, they may be over generalizing, such as like which is one of the cognitive thinking errors that you talk about is over generalization or you know,

exaggerating things. But let's say you are the type of person your whole early life you got signals from people that you approached that you thought were attractive that they rejected you, and so you have evidence that you're not attractive to whoever the kind of people, whether you're a woman trying to approach men, or you're man approaching woman or man man woman woman or whatever other you know, turtle turtle, whatever I want to include be inclusive here

of everyone. But what what what do you do if you have that evidence? You know where? Because you know, part of CBT is like look at the evidence tally one side time. But what if, like the evidence is overwhelming that you are a loser? Now what do you you know? I mean, what is that? What do you do with that? Right? Well? This is this is whatever they appreciate about CBT is that it's not just power positive thinking right kind of stuff. Because I want to

make that point. Yeah, yes, yeah, because people are smarter than that. You know, we see through that. So it's not about telling yourself the opposite. So if you say that I'm a loser, no, I'm amazing, because people don't, I mean, they don't buy that for very long because then yes, something comes along. It's fragile because then if anything happens that disconfirms that, then they say, oh I was wrong, I'm a complete loser. Right. So this is where I think, you know, the I mean, where mindfulness

meets cognitive therapy. I think it's so powerful is that we don't have to deny what's true. We can we can open to all of it. We can open to like, all right, I am. Let's say I'm approaching romantic part potential romantic partners in a certain way and I'm getting I keep getting a similar type of rejection. So I could say, like, well, in positive thinking would be something like, well, I'm amazing and they just don't appreciate me. I need

to find someone who appreciates me. And maybe that's true, But it could also be that it's something about the person's approach, like maybe it's useful feedback or something that a person can yeah, you can learn from it. So it's you know, the answer is either when I love that, either we change our behavior or or we change our thoughts. But sometimes the thoughts are accurate, and then we don't want to I never want to be in the position as a therapist to try to convince someone of something

that isn't true. If it is true and if it's useful information, that framing you just said just totally answer my question. That was so great. Yeah. Also, I think a part of that is also taking responsibility, because I think that a lot of therapy is about taking responsible I read Irving Yallam's wonderful book Existential Psychotherapy, one of my favorite books, and he found that the top two

factors that were most effective in psychotherapy. The first one was accepting parts of unknown parts of yourself then maybe you'd cordoned off and accept fully accepting them. And the second one was feeling a greater sense of responsibility of your actions and that that, you know, kind of taking ownership over the things. And and I think that that it seems like that's important in this situation. It'd be very easy to blame it on others, say, like, you know,

the expression hater is gonna hate. I never really liked that expression. I actually really don't want to. I don't know if that's a healthy psychological mindset. Every single time someone you know criticizes you, you you go, oh, hey, there's going hate. Well, I mean, I mean sometimes maybe you should be like, huh, what what? What can I if enough people are saying, you know, maybe it is true, but but but doesn't mean that I that there isn't something useful I can get from it and to be

a better person. Yes, yeah, I agree completely Scott. There's a I think a kind of a cheap form of self love. I think in some areas that you find which is kind of the first part of what you're describing of this. You know, hate is going to hate, and it's and there's nothing about you that you should have to change. You're perfect exactly where you are. I think we can be perfect in a sense and yet

still things that we want to work on. And I think real self love and self compassion is being able to open to exactly who we are, even if there are parts of ourselves that we want to change that we're not happy about. How can you be perfect and you get still things to change. How does that logically go together? I mean, the best that i've I've heard it put is kind of like an acorn, where you know, an acorn is not complete in the sense of it has a lot of growing to do, and yet it's

perfect like an acorn, Like what a thing of beauty? Oh, I see, I see the thing. But it's not going to stay an acorn. It'll grow, It'll be a sapling and it'll be a perfect little sapling. But it can't stay a sapling. It has it has to keep growing and changing. So you can still be beautiful and still need to change. Yes, yeah, maybe beautiful is a better

a better word for it. I mean, I guess because if I was perfect, I'd be like, I'm done, Like, don't you dare change because you can only possibly make yourself worse? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, if like I touched anything, why would mess with perfection? I guess it depends on what we mean by you, because I when I think of you, I think of that kind of incorruptible part of what I see is each of us, the deeper part of us, that's are I think of as our

spirit that is untouched and untainted and undimmed. By anything that we can do or experience. I see, I love this, uh spiritual undertones of your language, your poetic language. It's I like it. It speaks to my poetic sensibilities. So I thank you. I resonate with it a lot. You mentioned you have a you have a section in your book on cycling the puck in CBT. Can you talk about what cycling the puck means? Yes, I'd love to. Yeah. That came directly from Rob Darubis. So he was he

was talking about with this particular client. We were we

had groups supervision. We watch videotapes of the training therapy cases we were doing as as graduate students working under him, and and this I forget exactly that the details of the case, but but there was this idea that that actually may have been a training tape of watching Rob do therapy where he's working with his patient and and kept kind of gently, you know, bringing this idea up in response to what this person was saying, and and you'd see it would kind of it wouldn't it wouldn't

quite take like the person would hear it, but it wouldn't really land. And so the metaphor comes from hockey, which I don't really watch hockey, but the idea is, you know, if you're you're passing the puck around waiting for an opening, and so you kind of cycle it around waiting for something to to materialize. But obviously you don't just you don't just hold on to the puck, right,

You have to have to keep it moving. And so the conversation's moving in the therapy room and it comes back around to you know, here's another another pass, all right, that one didn't quite take all right. Then talk about other things and we come back to it, and then in this session it finally landed and you see this kind of this aha moment and there's an opening. And I think that's true for all of us. There are times where just were more receptive to things than other times.

And we have heard it, you know, fifty times, but the fifty first you're like, oh, yeah, like I knew that was true, but now I really know it, Now I feel it. I resonate with that so much. It's so true. It's so true. My mom has always said that about me. She's like, you, well, you're so stubborn, you won't listen until you're ready to listen. Yeah, She's not wrong. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true for all of us. I think, well, thank you for that makes

me feel well. I mean I think there's there. I mean there there's a sort of right time for these things to land. And because we have our own, our own understanding of things. Uh Like, there was somebody say there's this idea of being a spiritual being having a human experience, and I'd heard that a bunch of times, and it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, I mean I don't disagree with that necessarily. But then something something clicked

and that that actually, like I felt like it. It's hard to hard to describe us something that seemed seemed already to be true becomes more true, but that that's how it feels. It feels like it becomes deeply, deeply true. Maybe it connects with something we weren't we weren't ready to receive until that moment. I think that's where, well,

that's very existential. Mm hmm. I think that's part of the part of mindfulness practice is experiencing things kind of with with fresh eyes, as if for the first time. And maybe that's part of what can allow us to open to these things, is is not being sort of foreclosed, like yeah, I know what that's about, but opening to it and and connecting in a different way. So what's your mindfulness practice. Do you sit down with the call map every day or are you like more evolved in that.

I don't know about more evolved I I do. I do some gentle yoga, no offense to the call map. I love the call map. I'm just oh, yeah, yeah, you know. It's it's changed over the years. It started out, uh, and it was just I think initially I was doing some some guided meditations with I think some of John cabot Zen's recordings, which are really in enjoyed and recommended

to my clients. And then for a number of years I was doing just silent meditation, maybe fifteen minutes a day of just sitting eyes open, actually focusing on my breath.

And then I did more kind of more calming type of meditation, especially when I was going through an extended illness and felt like I really needed that deep kind of parasympathetic nervous system activation, and so I wasn't so focused on focusing as much, but more just on on being with the breath and relaxing, maybe doing some that were guided and had some music in the background, and then I did maybe maybe just before that, I did you know, Sam Harris from the Waking Up podcast and

multiple books and you guys Waking Up Meditation app. I did that one for a good while and still returned to that sometimes. That's really been instrumental in my understanding of the mind and the connection of mindful awareness and meditation to just kind of our fundamental experience of consciousness as best I can understand it. And then then as I started to say it's lately it's more moving meditations were barely moving meditations like a kind of ye and

yoga or bedtime yoga in the evenings shoe. It's really really enjoyable do about twenty or thirty minutes most nights. My wife and I both do it. It's kind of a nice way of being together and decompressing before bedtime. I love that. Sounds like you some really healthy practices there. Oh.

I saw the kromea you drink. I was like, that'd be really funny if he was drinking a beer right now, like just from like from a pure comedy perspective, you know, because like you really have some healthy habits and you're like tugging, sugging, chugging a beer. Well, I've got the game on over here, you know, sovery now. And then yeah, I feel like just from that, like you know, Saturday Night Live perspective, that'd be funny. But okay, it was water.

It was just water in there, right, there's no there's no vodka, just water. Yeah, yeah, No, it does sound like you have some really healthy practices. And what is it about mindfulness meditation that like, why does it? Why do I feel like a better kind or human after I've had ten minutes of paying attention to my breath? Why does that happen? Can you explain this at all?

I mean, my uh my understanding now, which which could continue to evolve, but is that meditation connects us to our true nature, That our nature is to be kind, loving, connected to others, calm, and that it's it's so much of the thinking and doing that fills our days that takes us away from that place, and so it doesn't take it doesn't take long to come back. It's always there, that that core truth of who we are, our our essential nature, is right there. We can come right back

to it, and it can happen in an instant. So I that's my understanding of it. Now. Why it's why it's so effective and so important for it to be central to to to therapy practice, as I understand it, because it does you know, it comes from that. It puts us in that place of truth, so that anything that we it's like it's a foundation. And so if we if we're if we're in this kind of uncentered, self focused, impatient place, we try to build from there,

we're going to build wonky structure. But if we come home to ourselves, come back to that that true center, then from there, I think what we build is going to be good. So interesting, why is our center less motivated by our lower level desires? That's what I'm trying to understand that. I mean, my love of chocolate doesn't like it's real. I mean I wouldn't say it's like like, yeah,

the real true self doesn't like chocolate. No, I think there is you know, I I've kind of written and I wrote an article for Scientific American kind of criticizing the concept of like the true self. You know, it's all you, but but if it kind of refocuses on a particular side of you, Yeah, seems to be your best self be kind of brings out the best in you.

And yes, yeah, and I'm just like, it's just fascinating to me that like attention, you didn't have to be that way, right, Like it could be like the more you focus attention, the more actually you think about the child, like the chocolate overrides you, right, And the more of a jerk you become. Yeah, right, and like no more meditation for you, you're mean enough. Yeah yeah, and there and to be fair, there are those who are class A jerks who gravitate towards mindfulness and do become more

mindful in being a jerk. So I don't think it's a panacea, but I do feel personal. I'm talking about my own lived experience, as they say, like like I can be when I'm feeling all ad D, I feel like I'm not at my best. Like I'm like I go anywhere and go with the chocolate. I go to those and go then I do like ten minutes and I do feel centered there. I do feel more centered in a way that I don't feel a pull to make even feel the pressure to make a decision. Right

If that makes sense, Yeah, yes, no it does. I'll read your Scientific American article. Too cool, I'll send it to you. Yeah, please do. Yeah, authenticity under Fire it's called yeah, Oh that's great. Yeah, because really what we're talking about is kind of that the frontier of my thinking because I don't I don't know exactly how what I what I consider our our spiritual center, how that relates to the other parts of ourselves. Because I agree with you it's I think it's a kind of kind

of spiritual hegemony is the right word. But but we can be too precious with the idea of spirit and you know, want to deny everything about the mind and the and the body. But but I think it's it's more. I think what's valuable actually is more of a valuing

of of all the parts of ourselves. But I guess my way I came to this was was realizing that our tendency is to get over identified with our minds and our bodies and see those as the totality of who we are and forget there's a part of ourselves that is that's more than our mind and more than our body. And and it does it does seem to be that connecting with that part of ourselves just brings the other parts and bring the other parts into alignment.

But then but then you know, we can enjoy the chocolate in a different spirit that it's less of a kind of inquisitive like can't be satisfied kind of way, and more of a more of a willingness to enjoy what's there and then to be okay when it's when it's gone. Oh, absolutely, I absolutely agree with that. You know, we can make decisions like I have dark dark dark side sundays, you know where I'm like, I got all

the food I want. You know, if you do it mindfully, I feel like, yeah, these things can be really great. So I love what you're saying. And you talk about how you can cultivate more mindless and two things that you mentioned in particular are presence and acceptance mind talking about what just a quick description of a definition of

what each one means. Yes, yeah, So presence is just focusing our awareness and what we're actually doing, rather than you know, our brains want to go into the future and figure out things are going to work out out for us, or they want to kind of dwell in the past and ruminate on things that have already happened. And so mindfulness is about coming into that thin slice that's right in between those two. It did. My whole screen went bluish, properly enough, a little pulsing heart of

the middle. Okay, I just was like going to work. Okay, Yeah, that's very cool. And then and for some people that some people see acceptance as inherent to presence. So we can't truly be present if we're not accepting what's happening in the present. As soon as we start to wrestle against our our situation, or to to to kind of hate it in some way, to struggle against it, to reject it, then we're we're no longer present. But but

but the other component is is often called acceptance. So just opening to things as they are doesn't mean that we love them, doesn't mean that we approve of them. Like if someone else is treating us badly, accepting that that's happening doesn't mean we just take it. It just means acknowledging that, all right, this person is treating me badly, and then we're in a good place to decide what

to do about it. I love that. Yeah, it doesn't mean Carl Rogers, you know that I often find the curious paradox is that once I've accepted it, then I can change. Yes, yeah, I guess it doesn't mean that you approve of it or that you want to keep it forever, you know. No, you're like, this is what's

within me. So that really that really is in line with the article I wrote on authenticity under fire and why there's no such thing as a true self, because once you think that the true self is only the good bits about you, then you're gonna like not accept all the naughty bits, right, Yes, I'm about accepting all

the bits, you know. And yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because people do have an authenticity bias if you give them like self report questionnaires and you say, can you mark off all the aspects, all the adjectives about yourself that are the true you? The true you is like moral, you know, good, caring, loving, you know, all the other stuff is like, oh that was just me gain drunk Friday night, you know, right, that's not really me. Yeah. Yeah, And I guess this is again this depends what we

mean by me. There we go, there we go. Good point. I mean this sounds kind of kind of lawyerly, like like Bill Clinton saying this, like what what was the word is depends on what the definition the word is is or something like that. It's quibbling about some irregular verb or something. But no, I completely agree it's you know, I don't. I don't want us to separate off those parts for ourselves exactly because I think we're we really set ourselves up and and others set them up for

U for bad behavior from us. If we deny those parts. It's like Jordan Peterson, I've heard speak a good bit about you. If we deny the darkness in ourselves, and you know, like if parents, you know, don't recognize that they have a real potential for violence against the kids they love, you know, their own kids, that that's that's a very dangerous thing to do. I guess. So so when I say that that, let's say someone beats their kids,

and I say, that's not your true self. I don't mean you didn't actually do that, or that's not something you're capable of, but it's not true to your deeper Nature's interesting, Yeah, there's a there's a truer part of you that that we can align with. How do we know that the I'm gonna play Devil's advocate as an like if an evolutionary psychologist heard what you said, absolutely, how do we know that the deeper self isn't that primarily aggressive sexual like you know, like like unthinking, like

reflexive self. How do we know that's not actually the deeper self from anvolution a point of view? But then it actually requires all these levels of mindfulness and consciousness and and and cultivating lollving kindness, meditations and in order to get in touch with a higher self, Like, how do we know we don't have it backwards when we use the phrase deeper self? No ideah, Oh, definitely it's a good question. I mean, I think it depends on

what our prior beliefs are. I don't think there's a I don't think there can be a proof, you know, in in one direction or the other. But I think so where I'm coming where I came to this from was and I don't know that he would agree with me, but but Sam Harris had this meditation where he who is you know, definitely an about atheist. One of these one of the lines he had from one of the guided meditations was was something like, your consciousness is not

in your head, Your head is in consciousness. So the idea being that our consciousness is is kind of prior, that all our experience is based on and derives from, and that it's that that consciousness is primary. And so when I came, when I came to believe that was true, then and I came to see the consciousness, consciousness being manifested in each of us as something that we we carry to, so to speak, as our spirit then and and and I believe that that spirit is the truth

part of who we are. Then for me, everything else is kind of built around that. And so so evolution, you know, even these sort of deep truths about selection and uh and change over time and and things that we believe about evolutionary science, to me, those are those are secondary. Those came after this deeper existence and truth of conscious consciousness and spirit. And I know this is pretty far outside of I think what we think of

is traditional cognitivevivial therapy. This is more of a worldview than talking about well, yeah, but you wanted to talk about how there's much more to CBT, yes, than how it's been treated. Yes. I think in one of the email threads you said you'd like to talk about that. Absolutely.

Glad we're getting to it. I'm trying to understand your point, though, I mean, surely from the evolutionary point of view, consciousness was like a much much later arriving thing on the human scene than our drives that we share with other primates and things. Right, So I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but it depends what you mean by consciousness. When I was studying cognitive neuroscience, the idea is a consciousness was this emergent property that came from yes,

came later, Yes, came from complexity. That's the only yes. Yeah. And so I mean that's a that's a type of consciousness, and that is a sort of self reflective consciousness and an explicit awareness of of our experience, an ability to reflect on that I am the eye that is having this experience. But I I think what I'm talking about is a different type of of consciousness, not conscious awareness, but just the see this is where my uh well words failed me. But I think because my knowledge reaches

its limit. But it's more it's but it's more basic than that, hmm. And it doesn't So this is this is beyond science, I think. But it's it's a consciousness that doesn't depend on the brain. Well, then then if that's the territory we've gone in, then I can see, I can see, I can see what you're saying. I think, yeah, because at that point I could say anything if you change the rules of the game. But uh no, I'm really I'm gonna I'm gonna think about that. How about that.

I'm gonna I'm going to meditate on that for sure. So why isn't waking up a once and for all experience. Well, I mean, it seems like it could be really nice if it were, but it but I mean, I know, for myself, I can have this, you know, these moments of deep connection and a sense of unawareness of what's really important and letting go of all the bs that tends to cloud our experience and our well being, and then ten minutes later, I'm right back in it, right

back into the all the all the clutter. And I mean, I think it's this doesn't answer the question. I think it's it's I think it's the human condition. But I think part of that condition is that our there are so many there are so many forces that are working to put us to sleep, like I think our I think social media is exquisitely designed too, for the most part, two to put us to sleep, to to get in the way of being present and connected and aware in

a useful way. Consumerism, in most of its manifestations, I think, is you know, fosters a kind of desire that that that puts to sleep, our sort of higher awareness, our sense of being enough and having enough. Our economy runs on being told we don't we're not enough, we don't have enough. We have to keep keep the engine running, keep consuming. So true and uh. But then I think,

you know, the outside forces aside. I think within ourselves, we have this machinery built in you know, this this ego that wants to protect us, and is you know, is constantly pulling our attention to our our fears and and are inadequate, our feeling of inadequacy and insecurity and

trying to and doing its best to protect us. But in a way that that actually has the opposite effect, just like just like any other kind of fear driven behavior, like in a more you know, in a more obvious type of let's say, a fear of dogs, that our our brains tell us dogs are dangerous, so we avoid dogs, But then that just makes us more afraid of them, and more likely to be upset when we do see one who's scared of dogs, who is scared of Yeah, I'm not scared of dogs. No, I know, I'm not

scared scared of dogs. But I'm more afraid of dogs than I used to be after knowing a dog incident. I didn't, but I knew a couple of people who got mauled by them. So and it happens so quickly and their lives are changed. So but no, I mean I love dogs myself, would love to get a dog. Well, now I'm scared of dogs. You just gave me a fear of dogs. I never Yeah, yeah, I'm very suggestible. I want to kind of just end today because you've been so generous with your time on just some ways

people we can be kind to ourselves. And I think that forms a really strong part of your work, is how to be kind to ourselves? And I'd found that chapter one of the very meaningful chapter for me. So yeah, can you talk about some of those ways? Great? Yes, yeah, definitely, And maybe I'll frame this from kind of think Act B perspective. They still helped me kind of organize the different things that are available, So I think, but I would start. I would start with action. I'd love to

lead with action. So just doing things that are kind to ourselves and thinking about how we would want to treat someone if we weren't ourselves. We have this opportunity to be kind to this person in the world, you know, this person whose body we inhabit. And so you know, maybe two things I would offer. One is making ourselves

a nicer meal than usual. I used to habitually eat what a friend of mine labeled a self loathing lunch, which was something like like chips and like like tortilla chips and and slices of cheese, eating at my desk. And so, you know, making something that's a little nicer. Maybe using a cloth napkin makes it feel a little bit like like someone took the time to do something nice for you, even though it's just your your earlier

self that day. Yeah, And looking at your schedule for the next day and finding one way to make it make the day a little nicer for yourself. Maybe it's taking out something that you don't have to do that's just going to make your day more stressful than it that it has to be. Or maybe it's adding a little something like getting yourself a nice cup of coffee,

but just something that that gives. I mean, it's sort of it's doubly rewarding because there's the feeling as you're doing it, if you're doing something nice for someone, and then later you're on the receiving end of that, like, oh look at that, that's one pack a nice lunch. Oh yeah, it's me. And then on the think side, watching out for the types of self hating thoughts that we have. They can be subtle, they can even be

more kinds of images than thoughts. What if you're a narcissist and all your thoughts are like, I'm great, Like, is there a form of CBT for narcissists? Well, there is the reverse then more negative thoughts about themselves, maybe more realistic, because every narcissists that I know and have worked with, there's always the flip side. There's always that the the narcissistic thoughts are a cover for uh really self hating. Oh my god, that's such a such a

deep point. Yeah, yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, that those thoughts are as low as the positive thoughts are high. Yeah, trying to find a more stable gotcha, ye, yeah, so noticing those thoughts and and again not not trying to tell ourselves things that are unbelievable that we're that we're the best person in the world. But but you know, just speaking to ourselves kindly, the way we speak to a friend or you know, child's what we care about.

And then finally, self care from a B a B perspective is just you know, taking time to step out of the thinking and doing mode and and just as as the label suggests, just be in our experience. Maybe it's just I mean, this is this feels weird, I think for most of us. But just sitting maybe just for a few minutes, doesn't have to be meditation, but just just sitting and maybe sitting outside, whether permits or sitting in the living room, and and just seeing what happens.

We're so driven I should be doing something. I should be doing something and seeing what happens when we step out of that mode. And for those who are interested, you know, maybe starting a brief meditation practice each day and just seeing what that's like. I think the important thing as far as I'm concerned with meditation practice is just finding something that works for you. It doesn't have to be you know, certain length of time, our eyes open,

a nice closed sitting, a certain way. It doesn't even have to be what we think of is meditation, but it's just a way of being being in the presence with a kind of an enhanced level of openness compared to what we what we tend to experience. Beautiful, What a what a great way to live one's life. And also I think I'm trying to think we didn't really didn't really talk about values, but we've had entire other

episodes about that. We've had Haze Yes, I saw Yes talking about the act approach, which is all about aligning your actions with your values. And but you, that's another add on in your book, is the you. You know, the value is part of it. So we got mindfulness, we got behavior behavioral activation, we have value getting in touch with your values. We have being mindful of your cognitive distortions and and trying to test the evidence for your core beliefs. Do you have a more realistic view?

Have I left anything out? No? You know, I mean I I think I think some of the maybe things that weren't weren't always thought of as CBT, but I think of as as I'm seeing are more and more important things like just basic good self care like diet, exercise, you some kind of connection to a feeling of meaning and purpose. Those bigger life issues I think are just as important as anything we might do in the therapy room. I love that. Hey, thank you so much for time

with me today. It's been a real pleasure for me. And I'm a big fan of your work now, so thank well, Thank you very much. Scott. Yeah, I definitely would encourage listeners to who haven't already probably already seen them, but but they're a great episode on the dark Side recently, I think which yes, I think for those who want to dive deeper there and then yes, and the Steve episode two that I had started listening to, I think is is really I've so that the value is part.

I've been influenced by his work as well as I think that's really important. And I just want to say I really appreciate your work and all you're doing to bring so many ideas in psychology to your listeners. I think it's really fantastic and look forward to continuing to follow you me too, Seth. Were you just were you just suggesting that listeners listening to some episodes of my podcast. Yes, yes,

Oh my god, how incredibly generous of you. It should be known that you have a podcast too that listeners should be hearing. I mean, that was incredibly selfless of you too. In that moment, I'm almost like going to cry because I have I've touched because you very rarely get that. You know, you'll have guests that the first chance you have them to talk about themselves, they plug their own thing. And you literally just just directed them to some of my own podcast episodes. So how incredibly

selfless of you. But I should say that you also have a terrific pod cast, and I really would like to direct people who really liked a lot of the things that you talked about today to go there and also read your book. You know, there's some things we didn't talk about today that I'll leave as a teaser for those that want to read your books, such as goal setting. I realized we didn't talk about setting the

right goals and how do you set the radicals? And those are the aspects that I think are best for someone to read your book and do that and have a journal like I do, and keep a journal on to keep track of the goals, So thanks again, Seth. Yes, thank you Scott very much. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com.

That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a reading and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to the Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying to increase our viewership on YouTube. In fact, many of these episodes are in video format on YouTube, so you'll definitely want to check out that channel. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.