Ruth Whippman || America the Anxious

really excited to have Ruth Whitman on the show. Ruth is an author, journalist and documentary filmmaker from London who's currently living in the USA with Hilarious Consequences. Her essays cultural criticism and political journalism have appeared in The New York Times, The Guardian, Glamour Magazine and other places, and she's a regular contributor to Time dot com. Whitman is author of America The Anxious, How our pursuit of happiness

is creating a nation of nervous wrecks. And just to be clear, that's the American title of the book, not the British title of the book, which is a different title. Thanks for so much for being on the show. Today, Ruth, thanks for having me. Yeah, it was enjoyable reading your book. And even when I have disagreements, I had disagreements and yet still laughed. So I don't know what that's what that means. Maybe I should be outraged, but instead I

was like, it's funny. Even though you completely be fun of my whole field, I was like, that's funny, that's very nice. Yeah, than I am, well, no, I don't know about that. I don't know about that, but I you know, I should say I lived in England for basically my whole twenties was me living in England, and I felt a great affinity towards the sense of humor of the Brits and the cheekiness. And I think that I felt more comfortable with that sensibility then among my

fellow Americans. So oh interesting. I think I identified with your sense of humor because I get it, like I get where it's coming from. Okay, so let me start one question with you. What was it like for you coming to America. It was only a couple of years ago, right, five years ago or so? Or five years ago now? Actually six years ago, six years yego, oh year just went without me even realized that. Yeah, so it was

a culture shock. I mean a lot of that was not necessarily to do with the America part of it, because I mean I had a very busy job. I had, you know, a lot of friends, a lot of family in London, and then we moved to California completely cold, so we didn't know anybody. Suddenly, you know, I went from having all this you know, social network to having this kind of twelve cavernous hours a day to fill when you know, from when my husband left for work in the morning and until he came home and I

could have an adult conversation. So that was one piece of it. But the other piece was it was quite a culture shock. I mean, I think California is probably the extreme of a lot of these trends that I talk about in the book. And so, you know, I was used to being a slightly jaded, slightly skeptical brit and suddenly I'm in the land of self actualization where everybody is pursuing happiness in a very very determined way. Well,

what pretty California are you? In San Francisco? I live near San Francisco and Berkeley, which so yeah, not too farther by area. Well, I was going to say, not too far from Esslon Institute, which is all about the self potential movement. I know that was big in the seventies. You know, I said, stay up front, I'm a big personally, I'm a big fan of self actualization. Yeah, you know, self actualation doesn't have to be individualistic, doesn't have to

be one hundred percent individualistic. It doesn't have to be that way. That's how it tends to That's what sells the most, seems to be, like when you look at marketing strategies, you tend to find like things that are individualistically happy or sell better than like, hey, join my

Hey guys, please join my program. I'll teach you how to be a more compassionate, loving person who has social justice concerns, like if we did that experiment, you know, and try to sell you know, because you know, on Facebook it constantly pops up with people trying to sell like supplements. And why isn't like the more collective, communal aspect of it, Why doesn't that sell as much? Well,

that's so interesting. It's a really interesting point. I think you're right, And you know, I've had this with my own book, you know, writing the book myself that the publishers are always wreaking. They're like, can't you make it a self help book? You know, can't you do a self help message? And I'm saying, well, you know, a lot of it is about do constructing that stuff. But there's still you know, the book. Did they read it? Yeah, they're real and you know, I can understand that. I'm not.

This is not a criticism because you know, I think if people invest, you know, many hours and twenty dollars or whatever in buying a book, they probably want something that they can take home and use in their own lives. So there's nothing wrong with that. But I think that self actualization in America has become quite an individualistic thing. And I agree with you, it doesn't have to be. But I think that's partly this for various reasons. Partly, absolutely,

it's commercially driven. It's something that sells it, you know, in many ways, feeding off the culture, which is quite individualistic, which believes in you know, individual hard work, in meritocracy and working hard at something to achieve results, you know, and in the rights and freedoms of the individual. So it's very culturally rooted. I think it is. It is. I want to say, though, you said at some point that like in England, there's a different sort of tone

to more skepticism surrounding mindfulness and stuff. Again, I don't know if that's true of all of England, just like you said, you know, you Organs are probably not true of all of America either. You know. I was in a bookstore in Cambridge, England recently, and half of the bookstore were books on mindfulness. Yeah. Well, I was just

going to say to you absolutely. I mean I think that even in the five years since we've been away, mindfulness has crazy really huge in the I would say it's bigger in the UK right now than it is in America. Yeah. And they've rolled it out in schools, in workplaces. I mean, they've invested a lot of taxpayer money and to bring it into public institutions in our national health service. And I believe that, you know, that has really outstripped the evidence that exists for it. Yeah.

I just want to bring up because I was shocked with how proportion of the what was it called, It's a British name of a bookstore over there in the Waterstones water Stones, Yeah, Yeah, I was amazed at that, and a lot of that actually is due a large part to my colleague Martin Seligman, who has a relationship with your prime minister or your prior prime minister. Yes, yeah, and here is very influenced. So Debby Cameron was very influenced by Martin Seligman's work and I write about that

a bit in the book as well. So yes, it's interesting because I think generally British culture is more skeptical about new trends, and you know, the Brits are hard sell. I think they are harder sell than Americans as a

general rule. But mindfulness definitely has you know, managed to make that cell and I think British culture, you know, when it comes not just mindfulness, but the happiness industry in general has become you know, the UK has embraced a lot of these trends, and you know the cynicism is kind of on its way out in a way. Yeah, you know, you're right, And I wonder if you're going to see like a flip, you know, like you're going to have to like read a book Britain The Anxious

or something. I know. Yeah, America, Well, you know I always said that when we first moved here, you could blindfold me and read me out the Facebook statuses of my friends and I could tell you which ones were British and which ones were American, and the American ones

were always incredibly positive and yeah, life is great. My husband's the cutest guy I've ever seen, and my kids are beautiful, and you know, everything's wonderful and I'm feeling blessed, and the British ones would always be you know, I'm waiting for a bus and it's raining and everything's rubbish. But now, even within five years, that's changed again, and the British statuses are becoming a lot more positive and thankful and happy and all the rest of it. So

I think, yeah, the cultural difference is definitely blessing. You're talking about cultural pressures on self presentation strategies. That was a mouthful, what I just said, but that's in how I would frame mentions of the psychological literature, since this is the psychology podcast. But who are who are people

really like? You know, it sounds like people Britain and Australia I've noticed tend to self deprecate themselves as a self presentation strategy, because that's associated with higher status interesting, whereas in America the opposite is the associated with higher status. But we all want higher status. I mean, that's still a fundamental human need. We kind of just like present

ourselves in whatever way the society, you know, like appreciates more. Yes, I think that's an excellent point and really interesting because

I think you're right. I think in Britain, you know, it's a classic thing that someone who's you know, I remember reading something somewhere where this woman was talking about her husband who is a brain surgeon, and the guy says, oh, you know, I just do a little bit of plumbing here and there and obviously downplaying it, and you know, but everybody recognizes those social keys and that, you know,

here's a brain surge of thekinness. Like. But it would be embarrassing in Britain to walk into a party and say I'm a brain surgeon, I on top of my field, I'm fantastic, and well, well that makes me wonder is there a difference? Is there a different flavor between motivational speakers in England and motivational speakers in America? Because I've noticed the motivation speakers in America their whole brand and

everything is just how many awards they've won. Who they know, my good friend Oprah or my good friend the Dalai Lama, you know, like you know, constantly name dropping. I mean, you'll see this phenomenon among American motivational speakers, and that is important for their brand to do that in America because it seems to be working, right. It seems to that that's when people eat up, you know, but and they want to be associated with that. Yeah, that's such

an interesting point. I'm now picturing a British motivator. I'm rubbish and I'm useless. This is awful, and you know you're a rubbish, you know. I don't think there's so much of a trend for motivational speakers as they exist in the US. I think some of the US speakers like Tony Robbins and some of the an Oprah as well have made in roads in the kaper. I don't think there's so much of a sture of homegrown British

motivational speakers as such. I'm sure they do exist, but I'm struggling to wish to do a parody of what a British motivational speaker would be like that I think that would go viral, that would be a viral video. I'm rubbish or rubbish ted x Britain. I do nothing special, but you know it's not really well, but it might change some small part of your I felt I felt happy the other day, but I am very sorry about that.

I promise, I promise it won't happen again. Yeah. Yeah, so you said the whole process of being happy has become painfully comically neurotic. You still stand by that statement. Yeah, I mean I think that we agonize and I do this as much as you know. This is not me standing apart from this trend and saying this is not you know, nothing to do with me. I do this all the time that I'm sitting there thinking, you know,

am I as happy as I could be? Would I be happier if I had a different part I don't know, or if I had a different different you know, if my kids were different, or if I had a different job, or if I did this, or if I did that. And I think we overthink happiness to the point where it's anxiety inducing. I agree with that in the large part. I find if I focus too much on you know, oh my gosh, I haven't meditated yet today, or like, oh,

like the Apple Watch has all these notifications. The new Apple Watch every freaking ten minutes it says, have you just a stand up, breathe, breathe, et cetera. I don't need do I need a reminder to breathe? I mean it gets. I mean, my son actually won an award in school. He's in first grade. He won an award for breathing at school, which there you go. But I mean, I do think that, you know, wearable technology is a

big thing. I don't have a watch like that, but I think it can just make you quite obsessive about your own happiness, and I don't think that is particularly healthy. So you're not just a mean spirited enemy of joy then, as you say in the book, as I say, I think so, I mean, I completely you know. I hope that people realize that this is coming from a place of loving being here. I love living in America. I admire the American zest for life and friendliness and openness.

I think those things are get and I hope people see that in what I've written. And this is not a kind of criticism, I think as much. It's a journey about myself to understand and you know, my own neuroticism about happiness and how I can work with that then to criticize anybody else. So, do you have any friends in America or anyway not in America? I do.

I have a lot of friends now, and you know, I've been so lucky that and I always say that I think it's much easier to move here as a British person than it would be to move from California to London and do the thing the other way around. I've got some great friends here now, which has made

a huge difference. And that was partly, you know what drove one of the main conclusions of the book, which is that our happiness is so fund mentally based on our social relationships that this very individualistic approach is kind

of slightly steering us in the wrong direction. And I could see just from my own experience that going from being socially isolated and lonely to being part of a community and having friends and all the rest of it just made such a tremendous difference to my happiness that all of the rest of it, you know how often I meditated on my Apple watch or whatever, really kind

of paled into insignificant. So the specific practice put in callte spiritual practices that you criticize are tend to be the ones that are most individualistic, because there is so yoga, meditation. Give me the list of the things that irk you the most. I think it's not that these things irk me.

It's just that I believe that they've been very, very very heavily oversold and sometimes in as a commercial prospect, which I think in a way that really outstrips the evidence for what these things can actually do for people. But I think a lot of it is to do with trying to change the way people think. So mindful now, a positive thinking, these kinds of trans gratitude, these sorts of things which are all about, you know, don't change

your circumstances. It's all about what's going on inside your head, so change your attitude. And that I think is a phenomenon which I think is problematic and has led. There is nothing wrong with any of these things in isolation, but I think the overemphasis on them can lead to a culture where we don't actually consider people's circumstances. Yeah, but why are you going to hit on gratitude journals? I mean, what did gratitude journals do to you? That's right? Yeah,

I mean I said this in the book. I said, picking on gratituy journals is like picking a fight with a fridge magnet. I mean, it just seems ridiculous. Well, I think that what the issue is there's nothing wrong with writing gratity of journal. If you want to write question journal, do it great. But I think where we run into problems. I mean I interviewed this woman who was really living the poverty line. She was working in this terrible job in fast food service. She couldn't afford

to go to the doctor. She her kids were, you know, had their teeth, they couldn't go to the dentist and their teeth were hurting, and she literally couldn't afford to take them to the dentists because she had no healthcare, planet work, et cetera, et cetera. This is quite a

common situation for many Americans. And then she would go into work and they instead of paying them vacation benefits and healthcare and all the rest of it, they said, write a gratitude journal, be grateful for what you have, change your attitude, and it just for her felt like this incredible gaslighting of her real experiences. You know, she's saying, actually, these things are shitty and hard and difficult. To tell me to be more grateful is really not to fundamentally

acknowledge what the problems are. So that's one piece of it. The other piece of it is that it just kind of annoyed me that I read all these positive psychology books and people say that gratitude write a gratitude journal is makes a huge difference to people's happiness. They really sell this concept as being this huge, great thing, and then you go and look at the actual academic studies

that there's a boy start and it's bullshit. I mean, there is very little evidence to show that these things work, and there are plenty of studies that show that they actually make people feel worse. And so this is what bothered me. I was like, fine, you know, if these things are helpful, but let's be honest about how helpful they really are. Maybe they worn't for some people not

for others. All of this is fine, but to really go out and say this is the answer to happiness, and then I think, if you're not doing it, then you're not grateful enough. Yeah, it's just it seems like you're criticizing the cultural manifestation of it, not the science of it. I mean, if you actually look at I don't know if we're looking at the same literature, but if you look at you know, some of Bob Emmons's writings on gratitude, and I mean, it's incredibly nuanced stuff.

And in fact, like Sonya l Bimirski, who will get to you later. I know you talk about her, but she's done. She presented at the latest Positive Psychology Conference from really truly interesting nuanced workshowing dosage effects of gratitude, journaling and stuff where yes, there's a curblylinear effect, like too much of it and it loses its effect. There's the opposite of the dosage effects. So it's not like you know, the more you do, the better you do.

You know that there's an optimal dosage during the week or so yeah, well, I don't know. I mean I think that her results. So I went and pulled up I mean, that was a good example because I read her. Sorry, there's lots to unpack in what you said that in the book. I went and looked at her work, specifically because she wrote a popular book called The Hell of Happiness, which really, really heavily sells gratitude as a major component of what you can do to improve your own happiness,

and you know in the book. And I think there's a problem here because I think there is a problem when there's same people doing the lab work are the same people writing the self help books that sell the lab work, because that is the natural conflict of interest. Yeah, I mean, I think if you're making money from selling gratitude, you are incentivized. And I'm not saying that she's doing this, but I think there is a financial incentive to oversell

the results of what you're doing. And if it was a drug company, if the drug companies were doing the research and publishing it and selling it, I think that they would be made to disclose the financial interest in that. So I think there's a conflict of interest problem inherent there. So you're saying that you don't think scientists should be writing about the work, is that right? I think they

should be writing about their work. But I think when you take a scientific study that happens, so you have the same people who are saying, we are researching gratitude and the importance of it, and then they're also going out and selling a course and an app and a self help book and whatever that sells you. You know, do your gratitude journal. And if you do these five things and a self help book for a popular audience,

that is a conflict of interest. And I'm not saying that scientists shouldn't write about their work, but I think they need to disclose in their academic work what their financial interest is in the in topic. I mean, I mean, surely you would agree interesting, it's so interesting. I don't know if I agree with that, because I mean, I'm thinking this through. I think it's a it's a complicated issue.

I'm trying to think of where exactly the conflicts of interest or like, really where the conflicts of interests are, So there'd be a conflict. I suppose if the courses you were selling, et cetera were somehow coloring your science. But if you're doing good science and you find in your laboratory that there are certain interventions that are scientifically affected, you think there's a conflict if you then try to monetize that finding. No, I don't think that you should

be prevented from monetizing it. I think you should disclose your financial interest in it. And I think what happened, And this is not a criticism of Sonia lu Bumersky in particular at all, but what I did find was that in her popular book, you know, there was this huge chapter or multiple chapters about gratitude in particular and how incredibly effective it was and how useful it was. And this is the best selling broke that sold, you know, I think it's on its fifty three print. You know,

it's a very you know, it's a classic. It's a classic, and it's it's sold to your average sort of armchair happiness seeker, and it's sold to students, well when you're gynecologist reading it or something else? Am I making that up? Ganic Colleges was actually really a different book. But yes, my Gandic colleguere is probably has read that book because

she's very interested in that topic. But when I went back and checked the footnotes and went back to all those studies and looked at the day and had people helped me go through the statistics, it was nothing remotely like how it had been presented there, gotcha, And there was a very mixed and even in her own lab work, there were studies that showed that some gratitude generally made

people feel worse rather than better. There were some studies that showed that there was no effect, no difference between the gratitude group and the control group. There were some which showed a small difference, but only under very very select conditions. There were somewhere that she didn't actually publish

the data. There were others where she quoted other people's studies. So, for instance, on Martin Sulliman's study, which sounded absolutely phenomenal, as if it was going to completely change the world and nobody would ever be depressed or unhappy again if they just got the Gratitude Journal. And when I started digging around trying to find this study, it had never been published and never been peer reviewed. I mean, it

didn't exist anywhere to even look at the data. So I'm not saying that anything in bad faith happened, but I'm saying that, you know, you should proceed with caution. Yeah, so it sounds like you're arguing, you know, you're saying there's a lot of overclaiming of effects, and that could be a very valid point. I'm trying to think of, like you know, you're holding the scientists are such a height, Like, you're not criticizing Tony Robbins for overclaiming he doesn't do

any such Robins. Yeah, I mean so Tony Robbins, I think is a different thing because I think most people but maybe this is not fair, but Tony Robbins is not claiming to be a scientist. I mean Tony Robbins is. You know, he's a motivational trainer. He says, this is his own experience, these things work. I think he's massively overselling. Would you rather have someone who does good science and over sells their science or someone who doesn't do science

at all and sells everything that they say. I mean, which would you rather have? So you won an ideal world where people do the good science and then they state in their publicity materials are effects size zero point four to five. Let's going to know what effect size means,

what it means. But I think if you're writing a book, a popular book, with a chapter saying you know, gratitude is the best thing ever and this is substantially change her life, I think it's only fair to say, well, out of the five lab studies that I did at my lab, three of them showed no effect. One of them showed a very very small effect, but only if you do it on Tuesdays and only after very complex

statistical analysis. And one of them showed you know, a Actually, I don't think she replicated the Emma's McCulloch findings in any of her studies. So in a one of ways, it's actually a back ended compliment on what you're saying. You're actually saying you're holding scientists up to an honesty standard that you don't necessarily hold anyone else in your life up to. Yeah, yeah, I think so, because I think a scientist is making claims that nobody else is making.

And so, yes, of course it's a whole separate issue. You know, the self help industry and the Tony Robbins and the you know, the hucksters and the motivational speakers. That's something that really needs to be looked into. But I feel like I, yes, of course, I'm holding a Harvard scientist up to a hired standard than I am.

You know. Cool. I'm trying to like this is great because I'm trying to like really pinpoint the argument to see where or not agree with it or not, Like I don't know if I agree with something or not unless I really understand it, do you know what I mean?

Sometimes I want to also make clear and I want to officially say I'm not calling Tony Robins a huckster normally, and I think a lot of people, you know, and I think this is and this is obviously something that you will be far more of an expert in the note because you know, if you say to someone, well, it's all in the mind, your effect is all in the mind. Well, great, so it's happiness. You know, if it works for you, then it works. You know, there's

no higher standard than it working. You know, and you think it's working if that makes sense. So yeah, so it doesn't make sense, it does. So just talking about the gratitude research for a second, I think that there's a kind of a lot of people have been making a false dichotomy that like you can't have gratitude and also appreciate the circumstances, Like it doesn't have to be one or the other. Bob Emmons has done some really

really good work. I mean, I'll send you after this call, I'm going to send you papers and I will even put in the show notes some recent review papers where he in the review papers is explicitly like, there's this conceptualization of gratitude in the general public, and then there's I'm going to present with the nuance of the science. I'll send you that paper. Yeah, I'd love to see that. Yeah, yeah,

I can see what irks you. And I think a lot of that does irk me too, so if I really understand it, and a lot of it sounds like so there is some of it, like there is some culpability with scientists, so that that's true, but also a lot of it really is sort of how people are simplifying this science in the general public. They're making it

so reductionistic and black and white. But I would say you're kind of making a black and way too when you pit gratitude against or having things that taking responsibility for your own actions self as well as caring about social justice, et cetera. You can have both as well. You can you can. But I think that and the reason why I've made this into a kind of psychotomy in a way, rather than just saying yes, of course you can have both. And that's a very very fair

and important point. But in this particular book, The How of Happiness, that we're looking about. She draws this pie chart, which I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's this circle, and it's divided into which what proportion of our happiness is based on on what? And she allocates ten percent for circumstance, which is a tiny sliver,

and she allocates forty percent for what's under your own control. Now, I went back and looked at the research and a lot of detail as to what this is actually based on,

and it's complete nonsense. I mean, the estimates and it comes from very old papers from the eighties that you know, and this is the most generous I mean, even if you accept that those are the best and most current thinking on the topic, it's really taken the absolute lowest pos possible possible estimate of circumstance and the highest highest possible estimate of control. I don't think these things fit

neatly into a pie chart anyway. But I think that this whole narrative of individual responsibility has been taken up by the positive psychology movement, and they are the ones pushing that. So that's what I was pushing back against. Yeah, I gotcha. I do like pie By the way, I'm a big fan of pie. Pie. Oh my gosh, a pie. Oh you know, I'm thinking like Pecan. I had a delicious peakmpie yesterday. But I'm so I'm very heavily pregnant at the moment, and there wasn't enough ram and my

body for this pie. I've shot you down for the circumstance slice rather than the control slices. Makes the circumstance slice well, watches. There's another reason why that cover is misleading that you didn't even mention. I can even add more into your arsenal if you want. There's a great misconception about what Herod ability coefficients mean, or what twin

study findings mean. No one is talking about parceling different things within one person, Like you can't cut up a piece of pie within yourself and say, oh like, forty percent of the reason why you act this way is due to this, twenty percent is due to this. All that is showing is that in general populations, the source

of variance that has explained in a general population. So even if that was true, I would say that in a general population, ten percent of the circumstances of the millions of people in that population is explained by variable X and Y, But that could still leave room for like many many people in that society for like most of the circumstances to explain, like to impact impact on them individually. So I think people do get really confused about So I agree that's a silly chart and that

was probably a marketing ploy. There's so many pressures just to be fair, for second to science writers, they go through a lot of getting beaten down, you know, through so maybe like it gets exciting to like get a chance for once to just step out and be like, oh I'm gonna like yeah, like you know, or even like there's these pressures from the publishers to name title books. I know what the process is like, and I try

my best to resist those pressures. But you have to fight your battles sometimes because the publisher wants to sell the book, you know, they and you you want to sell the book too. I want to sell my but yeah, and that's totally fat And there's nothing wrong with wanting to sell the book. I mean, you know, you want your ideas to go to a wider audience. I think it's great the books sell. You know, nobody wants the publishing industry to die. And no books to sell. And

you know, I think it's important. Would you want the publishing industry to cut out all the scientists or overclaiming and only have the self help industry exists? Absolutely? No. I just think that there should be maybe a little bit more you know, putting back. And this isn't just in positive psychology, you know. I mean you must have seen all the stuff about the replication crisis, you know, the big article that was in the New York Times about Amy Cuddy and the power poses and all of

these things. You know, I think it's a good moment for psychology to have some self reflection because it's an incredibly exciting field. It's so compelling to the public. People want to know this stuff. You know, we all want to know about ourselves and understand ourselves. And so I think it is a good moment to step back and yeah, this is good. Now, this is really helpful. And I think that this illustrates a couple of things. One of

illustrates that the scientists are human too. Sometimes people get shocked when they hear that, you know, like, yeah, oh my gosh. Humans are prone to the same sort of power motive as others, you know, so I want to say that's one thing this reveals is that, you know, and that's important for scientists to recognize amongst themselves that they could be they too confall pary to the thrill of status and power, and trying to keep that in check and staying true to the science is really important.

And I think that's a good point. So I think they're like, yeah, there are lessons here. It's good people like you, you know, who can like keep scientists honest, right. You know, I'm a journalist by China, and you know that's where I have a big role to play in this as well, because I think we take a scientific paper, we take the most exciting finding when we hype it up. So I think everybody has a part to play in this.

But you know, and as you say, I mean, writing a questions to journal is probably not going to do you any harm. You know. It's not as though you know, if you if you write down the good things that happen in your day, something terrible is going to happen. Of course that's not true. So you know, of all the battles to fight, this probably isn't the biggest. I mean, I would argue the science does suggest that all things equal, ray and gradude will make it more likely that you'll

show a lot of positive outcomes. I mean, the data does suggest that is the case. The idea of that a lot of our thoughts do influence our happiness and our outcomes in life is a true idea. You know, it sounds like you're really arguing for a balance. I'm marking for a balance because I think it became very,

very heavily biased one way. So I think we lived or we are living in an age you know, oprah of self factualization, self determination, self all of these things where it's you know, you just buy this book, download this app, do this thing, I think the right thoughts, and then everything will be fine. But meanwhile, you know, the fabric of American society has kind of been crumbling a little bit. And we saw this with the recent election.

I've done it. Whatever your listeners think about him or you know, you could see that there's a lot of people who are very upset and angry about the actual circumstances of their life. And you know, I think there's been too much emphasis on individual control and not enough on social circumstance personally, So okay, Yeah, that's a fair point. It's a fair point. I think about if I just saw the title of your book in the bookstore with no other context, yeah, I would agree with the title.

I wouldn't have thought the book would be about what you wrote, but I would agree that, Wow, you know, all humor aside, there is real suffering. Like I feel like a lot of this belies a deeper point about perhaps the failure of a lot of clinical psychology to address our problems, which is really what the motivation for the field of pods psychology was in the first place. If I can defend pod psychology at all, it would

be that at least the spirit of it was. You know, the field of psychology has focused so much on the anxious and on the depressed and not looked at what we can do to get north of zero, right, or to really flourish, Like does it mean to flourish in our lives? Now? You're not anti flourishing, right? Yeah? And I think that's and it's a very laudable thing, you know, it's a great thing to think, you know, what is the potential for human beings and for an individual life

and for people to live their best life? All of those things are right, but it's very hard to flourish when you don't have health insurance, for example. I couldn't agree more. And you know, one of my personal heroes, Abraham Maslow, he very much talked about you know, those needs, those other needs that need to be satisfied first, and we shouldn't neglect them. So I am like one hundred percent on the same page with you when it comes to we kind of are neglecting that when we focus

just on the positive. I think that's a great point, great, great point. Yeah, okay, thank you. Well, you know, actually, interestingly, I just went to a conference all about Maslow's pyramids and who yeah, And it was just a small thing. It was at Princeton, and I wrote a paper for

Society of the Journal. It's like an academic paper. And one of the things that I was arguing was that, you know, you've got this pyramid where obviously, as you've described it, you know, you've got food and shelter and all of these important things at the bottom, and then you've got self actualization at the tip. But certain, especially in the corporate world, certain employers are selling self actualization almost as an alternative to the to the important things

at the bottom, you know. So it's like, you know, you get paid rather than and this is happening a lot. So in a lot of workplaces in America, you do not have health insurance, paid vacation, job security, all the rest of it. But you do have mindfulness classes, wellness seminars, you know, you do get gratitude lessons, whatever. And so that's a great point. It's almost replacing these basics. I

think it's a great point. And you know, if Masil was alive, he would that would drive him crazy, and he would probably call a lot of that pseudo growth. You know, he has he has a towards Psychology Being. I've read a lot of Muzzlow, and in this book Towards the Psychology of Being, he talks about in passing the idea of too many people trying to shoot too hot to the top of the pyramid too quick without getting the foundations first. And he called that, he called

that pseudo growth. So I would actually, I would rail against that, and I think we're very much aligned in that vein. I would rail against pseudo growth. I'd rail against pseudo transcendence. I mean, you see a lot of people who are seeking spiritual transcendence, not built on a firm foundation, and you see a lot of very narcissistic

gurus that have pseudo grown. You know. It's a great description. Yeah, absolutely, so I think, you know, maybe back channel afterwards, if you could tell me some more information on that conference, I'd be really interested. Here. Yeah, it was just a very small thing, but yeah, of course I'll send it to I'll put that on the show notes if you want me to the paper that wrote let's talk about the parenting happiness rat race. Oh yeah, what is that? Well,

do you have goods? Yeah? So I when we first moved here to California, we had a one year old. I had a one year old son. Now I have another one and another one on the way, so we'll end up with three children. So this is kind of a tough thank you. So this was pretty close to my heart, and this is probably the part of the book that was based the most of my own experiences. So it seems as though parenting styles and I'm very much a part of this. You know, I am so

caught up in this. I can't I don't know how to break through. But it seems like we have the same attitude about parenting that we do about our own happiness, which is that it's our kind of responsibility to build

the perfectly happy child. You know that we can if we do everything right, and if we do all the right activities and the like this, and the right parenting methods, and we read the right books, and if we just try to try to try to try hard, then we can turn out this, you know, flawlessly happy baby, college student, whatever. And I think that the research is shown that this is kind of backfiring. Oh yeah, we don't appear to be backfiring. So what is the alternative to that? How

should you? What's the best way of raising a child? I mean, there's no easy answer on that. It's easier, it's almost easier to criticize than to take. So much easier to criticize than it is to do it. And you know, it's interesting. So when my mom comes over to visit from England, and I can see that the

way my parent must drive her absolutely crazy. I mean, when we were kids, you know, she left us to our own devices a lot, and she was a wonderful mother and extremely kind and generous with her time and

all the rest of it. But she was not there playing with me every moment and doing you know, painting and finger painting and puzzles and this and that, you know, the stuff that I do constantly with my kids, and so and I can see, I sort of see it through her eyes, and you know, she never says anything, but it must just look like I was such a

helicopter about that happiness. So I think part of it is standing back a bit and just letting them make their own mistakes and get on with things, and not trying to fix things and not trying to, you know, to make epything perfect all the time. I find that hard. You know, it is hard. I mean not that I know because I'm a parent, but I can imagine it's hard. And I mean it's hard. I'm a teacher, right, that's close, right, I mean right, yeah, And so you'll see ideal, I

guess a college student. Yeah, college student, yeah, exactly. But your point while taking about the parenting happiness, right, race, But are you familiar with Lee waters research at all or her book on playing positles Ecology to Parenting. It is actually a very well reasoned, helpful book, I think, because it's it's all about bringing out the strengths and kind of bringing out the best in your child. And I see that as a very worthy goal. And that's

a somewhat different goal than just happiness. Yes, and I think so too. I mean, it's funny when you said that, you know, and you said, oh, you're probably roll your eyes.

Actually the complete opposite was happening. I was kind of adjusting it down and thinking, oh, I've got to buy that book, because parenting is one area where people, even the most sort of skeptical, you know, the person who can never buy a self help book under any other circumstances, suddenly will eat up self help parenting books because we're just desperate to get it right. And you know, the stakes feel so high you don't want to do your

child any damage. You know, I would be very interested to be the one thing that I've noticed from having kids, and I, you know, in my obviously enormous sample of two children, it's really led me to feel that your basic attitude, whether it's positive or negative, is innate. My kids are so different in that I felt like one of them automatically is just so positive about everything. Everything's it's fine, don't worry. I fell over. I get up again.

Everything's fine, you know, it's a sunny day, it's great, and it just is like that. And the other one is like very brooding, tends to focus on the negative in a situation, you know, and they just kind of came out like that, and I, I mean, maybe I have parented them differently or responded to them differently, but it feels like there's something about our attitude which is you know, that was an eye opener for me. Anyway. That speaks to the role of genes, differentiating different personalities

influencing that. Going back to the pie, the pie pie, let's talk a little bit God's plan for happiness. Yeah, so one thing that I looked at when I was writing the book was that the data really shows that religious people are happier than non religious people. I just this is pretty consistent across societies, and especially in the United States, the effect is even bigger that you know

that this is true kind of across the board. And as somebody who's not religious myself, you know, I'm Jewish but not spiritual, and this was really fascinating to me, so I kind of wanted to know why. And then I also found out that amongst religious people, the most happy of all religious people. So religious people are happier than non religious people, and the happiest religion of all is are Mormons, So Mormons are amongst the happiest people

in America. So I went to Salt Lake City and I spent some time with a Mormon family there, and I spent some time there and it was a really fascinating experience and very counterintu too in lots of ways. But I think the reasons why religious people are happy than non religious people kind of speak to all of us in a way, which is that they tend to come down to the fact that religious people have stronger

social networks and social connections than non religious people. But moments, as well as being the happiest people in America, also have the highest rate of antidepressant use. So it's kind of complicated. That's interesting, you know what's driving what? You know? Do religious individuals are they more likely to take aydepressants

than Yeah, who knows. I think that one of the things that I found was that in Mormon culture, there's a very very strong cultural pressure to be happy, and it's sort of seen as being godly, so you know, to admit to not being that happy is quite a big admission. So I think when they do these happiness polls and they call people up and say, you know, on a scale at one stent, and how happy are you?

You know, I think you're probably more likely to answer a higher score if you're a moment then if you're not, because you feel like it's the virtuous thing to say. And I think there's also a good point. That's a very good point, yeah, you know, and I think there's a big cultural pressure, especially on mom and women, to look very very happy with your lot. You know, you have several kids, you stay home, you look after them, and you have to not just do it, but you

have to look happy about it. And so I think that is a lot of pressure on people, and I think that might explain part of the reason why the antidepressant use as well. Fair enough, So I want to just make clear about happiness is. In the field positicology, we kind of view well being as a broader umbrella than just happiness is. You know, I think you're equitting with like feeling good, and I think you're very quite right that we focus too much on having to feel

good all the time. And you also make a good point about neglecting or communal values, and so I think we are agreeing that. I also did want to make clear that you know, there are so many scientists in the field of podsitecology that are trying to look at various aspects of well being that you would very much think is worthy of investigating, including communalized I mean, there are researchers that are studying the things that you care about. That. Yeah, yeah,

so that's all the case. I'd be happy to send to your references. Yea, So I want to that. Yeah, I'm really appreciative of your time, and I want to I like to usually end with some of my favorite quotes from my guests, so let me just finish here

and read one of my favorite quotes of yours. We need to think of all being as a shared responsibility rather than an individual quest, and to develop a discourse of happiness that engages with people's problems rather than dismisses them, acknowledging privilege and injustice, and work against them rather than blaming people for their own misfortunes, and developing a vision of happiness that is inclusive and generous and socially aware. I couldn't be more on board with that goal. So

thanks for chatting with me today. Thank you. Great to be here, Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a rating and review of the Psychology Podcast on iTunes.

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