Ruth Richards || Everyday Creativity

It's great to have Ruth Richards on the podcast. Doctor Richards is a psychologist, psychiatrist, professor at Sabrook University, and Fellow of the American Psychological Association. She has published numerous articles, edited, written three previous books in Everyday Creativity, and received the Rudolph Arnheim Award for Outstanding Lifetime Achievement from Division ten

of the American Psychological Association. Doctor Richards sees dynamic creative living as central to individuals and cultures and a new worldview. Her latest book is called Everyday Creativity and the Healthy Mind, Dynamic New Paths for Self and society. Ruth, what an honor and delight to have you on the Psychology Podcast. Well, it is a delight and an honor and a surprise because I thought we were doing this in a week,

but you will get the real story this way. Yes, and I'm really happy to be on this because I think you're doing some wonderful topics that are all for really toward a better world and better understanding of each other. Well, that's thank you for that, really kind I mean, you're a legend. So a lot of my work was inspired by I mean a long time ago. I mean, do you remember like a very young version of me at the American Psychological Association conferences and you supporting me in

like maybe two thousand and five. Yes, And for your listeners, Scott was always outside of the box. He was representative to Division ten Creativity at the APA, and he was there active and outspoken, but it always in a very nice and engaging way. So yeah, I thought i'd support this nice guy. Oh thanks, Ruth and talented. Well that's very kind of you to say. Yeah. So I'm really excited to talk to you. And I wanted to ask you first of all, because you published this book Congratulations.

In the book, how do you define the term everyday creativity? Okay, you know what it is, your listeners know what it is, but often people haven't named it. So that's really one of the most important things is to see our strengths rather than to take them for granted. I haven't answered you yet, Like a fish swimming in water who isn't

aware of what water is. So here we are swimming in our originality of everyday life, swimming in our and so now we're talking about the creative person, which is everyone. It's part of our evolutionary path. We are talking about our ability to intuit, to shift, to have new ideas, to try something. This presupposes that we're aware and conscious, which is a whole other issue, that we can try things in new ways. We humans are you know Theodosius

dob Shansky. It was an evolutionary biologist who believed that humans have a phenotypic plasticity. There's a term that is really key to what we are or can be all add on this earth. That is that we can adapt to so many different situations from you know, from the frigid poles to the deserts, to from our crazy world today to what we hope it'll look like in a year.

And this is what we can do by being aware of it and by our creative minds, being aware of potential alternatives, and having the meta awareness to realize that we can change what we do to get from here to there. There's a big hope creativity. Every day creativity is our originality of everyday life. Hey, I've just given you something a little more high flutin. But it is how we get through the day. It keeps us alive. It helps us get to work or to take a

new route if we're bored. It very much. Is useful in raising kids, noking. It is useful in making a wonderful meal, and in decorating a home, in finding new reasons to be alive and new paths. Something interesting to send your heart. I just send your heart amoticon h So for your listeners. This heart has now become a re forcer. And I'm wondering why he didn't give me more sooner. So I'm going to forget that this is important. Oh boy, well it was, Yes, I mean slip of

the finger, but it was. I stand by it. Yes, yes, answer your question in a little more like Often we're not like that, right, we are just doing our thing. We are stressed, we're rushing, we're trying to finish the things we said we would do. We are doing just what we did yesterday. So we're programmed, we're mindless, and so part of the challenge here is to be aware of that and to get beyond it. Do we really want to do that? Or find a new way to live that's worth the heart? I love it, It is

worth the heart. Yes, but I don't want to see any more heart. Thank you for that. Oh, no problem, would you prefer? Yeah? Oh that's cute. Okay, so laughing crying em, I'll show you how to do it. I'll say how to do it. Yes, And for your listener, that was a laughing, crying it couldn't be better kind

of icon. Yes. So this is such a contrast from the way a lot of people tend to talk about creativity in the self help space as like high achievement, you know, like high creative achievement, and particularly in like the arts or something. You know, so you talk about quote, universal creative potential and is this something that's not necessarily defined by achievement in a specific field. Well, universal creative potential. It's your term, mind, but it's your term. It could

be defined by by anything. So if we're being original. It is about doing something in a new way, in a different way, or seeing the world differently, understanding it can be a thing, this is our creative product. It can be some idea, It can be way we behave. It can be our relationships with each other, and it can be work in the arts, and it can be

scientific discovery. So one misunderstanding is to think it can't be that that everyday creativity is more about the kind of stuff that's leftover when you've taken out the arts and sciences. Now it's everything. It's about how we live. And more worrisome are the people who say I can't draw a picture, I can't be creative. For them, that's it. They're done. It's all about doing a portrait, which by the way, might be more true to life with a camera,

but about certain art skills. And because they can't do that, creativity is not for them. So this is very sad because for them, you know, we're talking about being biased about what we see is creative or not. They may not even be looking for any of the other examples

I just gave, or it could be anything. So we and by we here I'm including my colleague Dennis Kinney at Harvard Medical School in McClain Hospital where we did a lot of this work, and other people who helped us, especially in the beginning Marie Bennet and Anne Merzille, and then we had collaborators in Denmark as we were able

to use Danish participants. But we developed something called the Lifetime Creativity Scales, which I won't go into in detail, but there's a lot that can be found out about it if people are interested, because we were looking at what people really did in their lives that we would consider unusual, original and meaningful, not useful. That's the favorite is original and useful, but you bring it useful and

suddenly you're anchored in the past. What's the need we had yesterday or what is it that we think needs to be done today rather than oh, something that may not prove it's worth for another week or month, you know, or we may be blown away by something that's kind of outrageous that doesn't really have the staying power of something that is truly creative to change lives. So anyway, we don't do that. We just look for what's new

and what's meaningful. As per the Creativity Giant. Really Frank Baron, who's one of my heroes no longer with us, who defined it that way. So that's it. Now. It doesn't really matter what you do. It's more about how you do it. And here we developed and validated with great effort. In fact, Daniel Golman even wrote about our scales for The New York Times, these ways of assessing quality and

quantity of creative work over one's adult lifetime. Not quite because we were looking I'm going to get too much into these scales here, but we were looking for for the peak creativity in major enterprises because some people have bad years, right, They for years don't do well, and suddenly they're doing something well here being what you'd give a heart for me, something that could really affect lives, but are suddenly on a real role and are doing

something wonderful. So I'm going to give art examples so people don't think it's not about the art. So they've written a wonderful book. You wrote a wonderful book with Carolyn Gregoire, so you get a heart and a star and Riven, okay, you've done other books. But for some people it may be years and then suddenly something works for them. It may have to do with the home they designed and built for themselves. You know, there's no

end to the examples. So what we like to say is we think it's very important to look first of all, not to miss this, because then we are not honoring ourselves, our potential, our evolutionary potential. Really, what's going to keep us alive when we're being pursued or we're lost. It's going to be our creative smarts. So we're not honoring that, and we are not having the confidence or the ability to develop this creative potential further if we don't see it.

But now let's say we do. We are seeing all of these ways that people can do things differently, and that ends up being really remarkable. Like an auto mechanic we studied who invented his own tools. Now, he probably didn't repair cars any differently than someone else who knows but well, and yet he had his own process or way of doing it. So his creativity was both in these product kind of tools and in the process of

how he worked. But who was looking for that? Maybe if you're looking for your artistic canvas, So here was this guy. If we turn the camera around, let's look at the other there's some people say the four p's of creativity, so here they are the product is sometimes that's really what people care about. We want this thing? How do we make it better? How do we make ourselves better at coming up with creative ideas? Let's look now at what happens to the creative person, who might

be a more important product. What is our second P creative process? Third P? As a creative person? What are some of the ongoing traits? Are the ways we are like which I know you're really interested in too. And I even made one of your comments into a trait. We can come back to that. Oh yeah, yeah, I think that was faith and intuition. Oh yeah, that's right. Oh yeah, yeah, that's that's really got to be a trait, both being able to do it and caring and knowing.

This is so in the new book, which we can say the name of again, Everyday Creativity and the Healthy Mind, buy it by it, hooray And yeah actually Amazon has been really discounting it, which is wonderful because because the number of people have been buying it and they've dropped the price to encourage more. So it's still more expensive than i'd like, but less than half as expensive as

it originally was. So turn the camera around. Getting we're demonstrating here associated thinking in all directions, but we're going to turn the camera back and look at the creative person. So now I'm looking at you. What in your space station? Here? It's very impressive. Thanks, Oh your audio equipment? Hey what folks? You got to see this? They don't get behind the scenes. Maybe we'll eventually, I'll start putting the videos on YouTube. Okay,

let's at least do a screenshot of this, got it? Okay, but stay away from the heart emoticon. Okay, I just started chewing an orange slice. But I'll do my best here. If we say, one, what does this creative person like, or at least during the times that say originality is flowing, and then maybe look at some of the things that last longer, what would kind of keep this going over the days and weeks so that someone is really living

in a different way. We find, and you have found too, that there are some very clear patterns, and some of those for us are encouraging also because they suggest these may be better ways of living. For example, we are talking about someone who's more open to what's going on, who's more aware and mindfully aware, at least more than than many people are, or that we might be at

other times. Who is kind of richly able to see alternatives, to have vision, to really to stand on the borders of infinity and looking at yeah, all the other ways things could be. This is big as that is well, I don't want to package it's divergent thinking, but it would have a bit of that in there, because this is going to use all the capacities of our minds to be able, and our memories and our imaginations of worlds we haven't seen to be able to come up

with these alternatives, and certainly includes divergent thinking. It might even get into our collective unconscious, but we won't go there. Oh boy, yeah, collect what does it mean to be visionary? But we're talking about a person. I'm looking at you, and I'm saying, here is someone also who, in being open, is also less defensive, right, they are more beyond eco issues? Who am I? How did that sound? Did I get

a heart? Right? Yes? And or a laughing, crying person who is into it, involved in this other world, who is balancing many things. So this is maybe one way of going beyond divergent thinking is that you can push another book here, a book that's almost done that I'm co editing with David Scholberg and Shan Geisinger for Oxford University Press is called nonlinear Psychology. Are you afraid? Non linear psychology? What does that mean? Yeah? What's that mean?

That's scary Keys to chaos and creativity in mind and nature,

and it's attitude and it's cool. And it has a couple of really good interviews and chapters by people who are pretty pretty good writers and who are also experts in chaos and complexity, including people like Ran Eisler, David Loy, Stanley Kripner, Alan Colmes, David and Shan and me and others Toby Zelsner, who are showing us that we have the wrong worldview, not you and me, right, that many too many of us, in including in intro psychology, are

looking at kind of simple models, linear models. If you change ab changes, yeah, it may, but twenty other things may be important to understand it. Who are looking at direct relationships. If I double A, if I double the force, then the velocity is going to be twice as great. Do you have a physics degree, don't you yeah, I do with distinction, and thank you for mentioning that, because I was the only woman to graduate in my classes

in Stanford in physics. So there are also ender issues and many other things we could talk about here around the traits of the creative person, but the main one that comes up here, as you know, is that highly creative people tend to be less boxed in by gender stereotypes or any other kind. Right, that's one of the very positive also in my book, probably your book, right, one of the more positive features to look at toward

a better future. Yeah. Yeah, So back to the nonlinearity is important here because the creative person I'm looking at, namely you, are also able to balance many factors and this is in a nonlinear way. What's that mean? Just one example, Hey, if we take test anxiety, you know you may know you know that if you have a lot of it, that's horrible and you may not be able to do well. If you don't have any kind of concern to begin with about some test you're taking,

you may not even take it. So it's good to have a little bit of being on the edge. And if and this fits an inverted U curve, so you're looking for the optimum, I would say, and this is a only one nonlinear kind of thing. We can talk

about the aha moment totally different. But if you are, say, going into your quote unquote unconscious, if you're bringing up things that aren't usually at the top of your mind or perhaps you never think about, you know, there you hear stuff about creativity and being mentally ill, and they're really there is something in a relationship between certain kinds of family history, bipolar or schizophrenic spectrum, and creativity. But

it is not about illness. It's about health, and the health part has to do with the right balance of being able to access these other parts of one's inner wisdom. We don't have to go the collective unconscious, but the larger part of ourselves which is not visible, which we're not aware of at any moment, but also having the executive controls if you like, or regression in the service of the ego, if you like, but having the balancing factor to use it adaptively. So that's simplifying it. But

we're still at the top of this inverted you. You know, we're maybe writing a play and we're and we're letting it kind of run for a while and see what will happen without using those executive controls. But they're there, and I'm kind of seeing what's going to happen with this character. But we know when to come in and change the prop or have something else happened. I just thought to kill a mockingbird, which was brilliant picturing some of that happening as I do it, and how that

play was changed from the book. So back to the person. Now we have kind of being able to play the symphony of mind. So it's not like I'm not saying that isn't the virgin thinking. It's many kinds into virgin thinking, coming up with many answers to one question, but it's also coming up with many questions and knowing when to bring other things in and knowing, you know, kind of keeping it under control while being loose enough not to

miss too much. Well, let me try to get this podcast chat under control for a second year almost over, and there are other things to say. There's so many things, so many things that talk to you about you really are a legend. You met how many people you've met? So many people you met Frank barn Right, you knew him, Oh I knew him? I didn't know him that well, but I knew him and and he was And let's

let's do Ravana Helston two while we're doing Frank Barron. Yeah, tell me all all the people that, all the legend other legends in the field that you met in the sixties. I'm not going to show you off the legends. But but those two, but those two are important because they were at UC Berkeley, where I was as well, with the Institute for Personal Assessment and Research, which later was your What year were you there? What years? I'm not going to say, but you never met like you never

met Abraham Maslow, right, I never did. I was on the wrong coast for that. He was at Brandeis. But I certainly knew Mike Aaronswill Mike Aaron's yesistic psychologist who worked with Maslow and started maybe the third humanistic school. What about uh, Carl Rodgers when I I snuck up when I was an undergraduate with another undergraduate at Stanford. Yeah, to sneak in to a talk. Carl Rodgers was not open to students. That's when you're a physics major. Yeah, yeah, whoa,

that's okay, he makee me do it. No, So yes, I don't want to lose this theme about the creative person. So let's let's go back to that, just to stomaize, Okay, summarize it quickly, Okay, that we are talking about being open, aware, flexible, and kind of richly able to see alternatives while having things like being less defensive, being if in some cases if oriented that way, more aware of others than connected to others, and what's happening in the world. Do you

think that could make for a better person. We think yes, all else being equal, because of course there are many malevolent uses of creativity, and that if we had you know, even if each person were like two percent more creative, which is to say, more aware of the creativity they're already doing and building on that, it could be a different kind of world with different norms and more awareness, more mindfulness, more caring. So that's an important point I

don't want to lose. Okay, No, that's a great point. No, it's really great. And you brought together a lot of questions. I was going to ask all in one sentence. But then, you know, the elephant in the room is the link

between creativity and mental illness. You know the research that you've pioneered and then has been replicated, suggests that if you know you're related to someone with fullblow mental illness, you can kind of get a watered down version of schizophrenia that actually could be conducive to creativity, right, Schizotippy, Well, the so called creative advantage, we're back to the non linearity and the inverted you. It can also be a person with a full blown illness, but not necessarily when

they're having the worst time. And there is every and there's something that does run in families we don't even know. That isn't the main thing. The reason evolution hasn't selected out for a couple of these major illnesses, and the so called creative advantage is more subtle, is in better functioning people. That it's also tends to be somewhat different between bipolar and schizophrenia. But there's something there, and it's something that really tells us help this person get treatment

there In hell, often i'm a psychiatrist and psychologist. They are suffering. They think, maybe, as some do, that they will be more creative the sicker. They are wrong, and they cannot only end up feeling much better and better about themselves. But can begin to make more creative contributions which can help all of us. So it's very important

to see this. We have done this research with everyday creativity again Dennis Kinney and others, using the lifetime creativity scales, so not some paper and pencil tests or whatever, but what people really do and have done, and looking using with our Danish collaborators, really complete families, so we could look at who is really related to whom, and we could look at various levels of intensity or manifestation of this underlying I'm going to say diathesis rather than make

it negative that can come out is really horrible suffering from many people. So the message here is learn about this, get treatment, find out how it's nonlinear. Yet it's an excellent example, and I wrote about in my chapter in this forthcoming book as one example of how something can be very misunderstood because it's not some simple relationship. It's not the sicker the better, if you take too much aspirin, you'll die. It's about having, like we were saying about

the executive functions, a touch of something more. And we could talk about latent inhibition or different types of thinking, and all of I think all of those are relevant, but there are ways. Some people may have a little more access that the rest of us can learn from to certain ways of thinking, but it needs to be in adaptive context where they can can use it rather than be used by it. Used by it. Yeah, lose control, Yeah, controlled chaos. It seems to be essential here to a

lot of your work. But creativity can also serve a healing function in itself, right, well, that can be the healing function. Huh yeh yeah yeah yeah. So. And chaos, by the way, isn't a bad thing. It doesn't mean anarchy or complete randomness. Chaos as in chaos and complexity theory, has to do with a beautiful underlying order. But at times things can change very quickly. It's the science of

change and surprise. It can be like an avalanche, which is an example of a chaotic bifurcation, only this might be an avalanche of mind. Aha, a new insight, and we can so to speak, we can't and I'll say, okay, now I'm going to have an insight. But we can also we can create conditions in ourselves in the world to make these more likely. And so it turns out that a creative bifurcation. In chaos theory, which is all about energy and a beautiful underlying order, we may not

see the whole picture. And that's exactly why it's an aha. Suddenly something comes to us that really made sense. Yes, and we didn't expect, but you know what, it didn't pop out of nowhere. It was si'med germinating down there if you will, in various ways, and you know, if you look at the neurobiology of it. But as you also know, there's a whole sequence of things you can start to look at now that we didn't know about before. And so all that was happening, who was running that

running that program? But then suddenly something new came into being. It's like the avalanche on the mountain with the snow that was about to happen. If you knew the hikers weren't going up that day and it wasn't the last snowflake that accounted for the whole avalanche. Yes, whole series of things right, Yes, and you hear about the butterfly effect. Don't blame the butterfly. Don't blame the butterfly. Everyone blames the butterfly for flapping its wings and causing an earthquake

in Japan exactly. It's flapping its wings and causes stated super Bowl, who should we blame? I mean, who is the cause of any Well, why are we blaming anyone? We are in this kind of system that is very vast and subtle and interconnected, and there are not a few butterfly effects. They're butterfly effects every moment. You mentioned earthquakes.

So I am normally in California. I'm in New York right now, but in California, the earthquake trackers are tracking all these little bitty ones that are happening all the time, and then there are some medium ones, and then there are a few more major ones, and we hope there won't be with all the other craziness going on the big one. But there are a whole range of these, and our brains are sparkling with these little insights right now, right. Yeah.

So this isn't some bad things. It's how it works, and it's how good things work, like a stock market boom or a good weather day or immune system. Yeah, and we have emergent phenomena which is sort of related but not quite the same thing. The whole is greater than the you know, I love that you know a lot of consciousness. It's probably an emergent phenomena. Oh yeahious, the whole of consciousness and all our states of consciousness.

But can't consciousness get in the way of creativity? Like in the like the aha moment usually happens when our consciousness is U is not on hyperactive dude. So I'm hearing you putting consciousness in one box here. I don't think you mean that. Oh good point. Okay, on look at it as a radio station, right, and we can tune into all these different modes, so maybe alpha, maybe beta, or gamma or you know, some mixture of those. Yeah. And Weiss once showed that there are all these flavors

of consciousness. And in one of the studies that I suspect you to know well by Cuneos and Beeman. Oh yes, yeah, their their legends too. Yeah, yeah, they're legends. So one of the studies they happened to find that not only were these people are having insights having certain brain patterns. So I'm talking about we're now orchestrating the in our consciousness, which is many things to uh. This is part of

the loose executive control. And it's interesting very few people talk about consciousness here, so thank you for mentioning that. Oh yeah, what they showed was that some of the people seemed able to turn it on in advance without knowing it. And what about knowing it? So is it unconscious? No? I think you. Let's put it back to you here, or i'd say to a class, I bet you know the flavor of what it's like to be open to a new idea. Yes, we're of tea in the Zen Master. Right,

you see you looking up to your right. I don't know or is that you're right on this picture? It was my right. It was my right. I look up to my right when I'm thinking, there are right richards. So you're saying, where did I read that? Okay, twenty ten I wrote something about consciousness. But of course Alan Colmes and others have for years at the Stanley Kripner and Creativity that here we have different ways of it's

sort of the big picture of orchestrating things. It's worth looking at what some of these findings are different ways of orchestrating these things, and that certain kinds of brain activity will happen if we do. And now you've written a lot about type one type two thinking. Yeah, so we could talk a lot about people who look too much without and not enough within as well. But is

there a flavor to that? And so of course we will want some of that what some might call the default mode, but maybe it's the real mode for getting out creative thought. It's funny that you would call it the real mode when it's imagination. Yeah, well there you go. Is imagination real? You're pulling my mind today with Richard's Yeah, of course it's real. But what is real? All right? Well, it was an imagination, not real by definition. Well it's all real, it's all real. But what do we want

to manifest in this manifest world? That's so crazy? In any event, if you did you do you remember the legend Colin Martindale? Oh of course I was going to ask if you knew him? I think you did? I knew him? Yeah, oh yes, Martin, I met him really ahead of the times. Looking at some of the brain changes with EEG etc. During insight, so he found not only things like right sided visual multiple images, very slow brain frequencies the frontal part, those executive functions are kind

of tuned down there. So he found this brain picture at the same time, and a lot of other people have sense, but he did way back at The experience involves being kind of open to all of these possibilities that are floating around. See now you look up to the right, I mean the left, right, unless you're ambidexterous, and it doesn't matter. Well, you know what, I'm more creative, I look to the left. I think when I'm more thinking, more analytically, I look to my right. Perhaps I don't know.

There you go, and your listeners might want to think about that in terms of pathways to the brain. But is the mind entirely in the brain? Will leave that for homework? Yes, Can I ask you a question? I know that a lot of people treat creativity and the creative person as such an individualistic thing, But can't creativity heal the world? Wow, there's a question, and I might end in that question. Sure. Well, that's a good one

to end on. We've been around in some form like atoms or substance for maybe going on fourteen billion years, and we at all and at least in this cycle. I love that. Yeah, And it is hard to imagine that humans the way some of us are acting these days, or most of us. Are it the purpose at least in this solar system of that evolution, that there isn't further to go? Yeah, and so what directions look promising

without trying to go into it all? In the last chapter of this new book, I took three examples, and one of them from humanistic psychology, in Abraham Madelow, whom you brought up. I always bring him up. Yeah, and well worth looking further because he was and he was looking beyond self actualization and his higher views human potential into rather more mystical things and getting more Eastern as well. Oh yes, yeah, so let's just put that for one.

I happen to love theory. You just about groups Auto Charmer, Peter Sange and others. Charmer's located at MIT. They have a process which looks like a you, not an inverted you, for groups in business to go deeper into some thing together. It actually includes meditation as part of the process. So already you know they're doing some good. And I've been a meditator for over twenty years and have a couple wonderful Buddhist Teachers' surprised you've opened up a gate of consciousness?

Yeah right, yeah, yeah, So what they do is they do that together, and they do that not to meet some objective of their business plan, but to find out what it might become. So they are looking to welcome the future, not unlike an ikdo master who's looking at the bigger picture and choosing moves based on what's happening

in this larger context. And then they come out of this I'm sure someone else could describe it better, but they come out of this bottom place with ideas and they implement them, and they prototype them, and they test them and so on. So it could be brainstorming where the group comes up with many ideas, but it's much deeper than that, and it involves a different worldview than that.

And now we're talking about groups and whatever they come up with is important, but equally important is what they're doing and coming up with it because they are prototyping a different way we can work together to find a better future. So that's number two, and number three is Walt Whitman. Could have been someone else, but Walt Whitman is one wonderful exemplar of quote unquote cosmic consciousness where it is as tick John Hans said, there's a finger

pointing to the Moon and some of his poetry. Likewise, Whitman's that you can see something very important coming through that can represent our higher potential. Yes, yes, so this is a good place to end one or higher potential. Yes yeah, our higher creative potential, universal creative potential, separately and together. And this has not, of course escaped the

notice of the doll I Lama. Yes, And so I'd also recommend a book I cited heavily in there, which is like number twenty something in his mind Life Dialogues, where the Dolla Lama is actively looking to bring together Western science with some of this newer to us thousands of years old contemplative, deep subjective wisdom of our thinking.

Thinking's a bad word, wisdom of our consciousness. So I do see for all the people who misuse creativity that it brings out of the shining qualities of awareness, of openness, of going beyond ourselves, our expectations, our fears, and embracing the possible new as real hope. And that's why I'm doing this and wrote the book. Do you want to give your heart right now? Here we go? Here we go?

That deserves it? I want you expand my consciousness every time I'm in your presence, and I just want to thank you again for all the stuff you've done for the field and for me personally. I really appreciate that, and I could see that potentially new back when you were wet behind the ears graduate suit. Yeah, very early graduates, dude. Well, thanks again for being on the show. Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

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