Pete Carroll || Winning with Meaning and Purpose

One of the three coaches to win a Super Bowl in college football national Championship, Pete Carrol is in his eleventh season as head coach of the Seattle Seahawks. With his unique always compete philosophy and relationship based approach, Carl has a combined forty six years of highly decorated NFL and collegiate coaching experience. Carl is also widely known for his all field impact through community initiatives that aim to

reduce youth and gang violence. His leadership with the WE organization that focuses on youth empowerment compete to create the high performance mindset platform. He co founded the Performance Science Institute at USC that he co created to educate and inspire college students, and his New York Times best selling Win Forever book Coach Kyl. So great to chat with you today. What's up I'm doing. I'm good. It's great to talk to you. I I'm so impressed with all

of all the things you're you're involved in. You're you're a busy guy. Well, we're trying to stay busy this time of year. You know, there's a there's a lot going on here. We're just starting an off season in the NFL virtually for the first time ever, and uh, you know, there's a there's just a lot to it, and so we're having a good time doing it. Our guys are making it through. We're taking it as a big challenge to see if we can do it really well. And that's that's what we're gonna get done. So we

just finished our first week a couple of minutes ago. Oh, congrats. So what are some of the main goals you have and for this offseason? Well, what usually is the main goal is to find our work ethic, you know, and get back to it and rediscover that and start all over again. Never assume that we have that, and so that all comes through the process of the off seating, off season training program, the strength and conditioning program, and on the field work that we have that not being

available to us. Right now, we're diving totally into the mental side of things and we're really digging in and trying to do a great job in all aspects of you know, what we can do to get smarter as a team, and it's the coaching staff and so that's all happening virtually. We're a zoom We're in a zoom reality right now, and that's kind of how we're doing. How our players coping. I mean, they're itching to play right well, yeah, they really are. We're itching to coach.

Everybody's in chusing to get back out and do the things we did or made to kind of be on the field working and so the guys are still working out and they're doing their their preparation. But it's always dificult when you don't know what your deadlines are, you know, and you don't know when the game is going to be. So we just have to just keep going. It's really about attitude right now, and we've got to do a

great job, you know, of maintaining it. Yeah, that's what I really want to talk to you about today as your inner, inner mind, inner game approach to football. And I was reading your book When Forever, and you said in the book, I realized that at the core of my being, I was a competitor. And I was wondrying, how do you define the word competition and where does that word even come from? Yeah, okay, well, really the definition that I've chosen to live with this about striving

to compete is to strive. And you know, it gets misused, misrepresented, and that people think that you got to try to beat somebody and rub their nose in the dirt kind of thing, you know, and so it has a connotation that you know, for us, I don't really care about that, but that's that is what happens, you know. So, but our definition is really about striving, and so you're striving to be your best. You're striving to become a better teacher, a better learner, a better coach, a better you know,

podcast guru, you know, whatever it is. And so that's just the way it made sense to me, you know, when when I was back in the day when I was trying to figure all this out and trying to put my world together. I thought, well, you know, try to find myself and let's see if I can figure that out, you know, And so I wrote a bunch of stuff down and nothing made sense until I said I'm a competitor, and then everything fell aside. And that's now become the central theme in our program. It's competition,

you know, and everything is built around that. And the thought was, if I'm truly a competitor, then I wanted to design a philosophy that would come directly from what was most truly authentic to myself, so that I could do the best job of representing when you know, when I had the opportunity. So we compete everything, you know, we're working at through everything that we do, and it's given our whole program a lifeline kind of to something

we can relate to and understand. And it's been really fun. It's worked out because competing fun, you know, when you're striving to get you know, whatever, whether you're trying to shoot more hoops than the next guy, or you know, catch more passes or whatever. There's a whole design that follows it, and we've really made it, you know, a championship type of mentality. I love that. You know, a lot of people think of competition as purely just sort

of domination of someone else. You talk about things like realizing the best version of yourselves and helping people become the most competent human being they become, and finding purpose and that might not be something that people necessarily automatically associate with the word competition, right right, right, So that's what we're striving to attain that can you know, status or whatever, And so that's why we're competing. So always

compete is really my philosophy, you know. And I'm a competitor and Centeral Team is a competition, so I'm all over it, you know. But it has given us. It's helped us with the process, you know, it's helped us with the mentality, help us with you know, attaining a lot of a lot that we have attained over the time. And you know, you'd be surprised, Scott that you might think that as far along as we're in this level of sports, that all we talked about is the is

the championship, you know, the world championship or something. Well, that isn't what we that isn't the what we're beating the drum for we're beating the drum to play as well as we can play. And if everybody can find their best in the in the game that we're playing, then we're really hard to beat. We've learned that over the years, and you can win forever, like you know,

and that's kind of where it came from. You know, if you're if you're constantly striving to be your best, then that's all you can possibly hope for, you know. And so because you can, what is it what are you trying to get? You know, it's not about getting, it's about the process. So well, what does it mean

to be your best on the field. It's more than just winning a game or or being your best in terms of talent, right, Yeah, it's it's it's trying to maximize what you have available, you know, and try to you know, generate the top of your the potential that you bring. And so that's it's hugely mental. And of course it all connects, so all the mental physical stuff has to connects. But it's it's to try to find it and then it's try to maintain it for as

long as you can. I never thought about you know, you get it just when when the Super Bowl and then you you know your life's over. You know, to me is how many can you win? How many times can you keep going back? And how many times can you stay on how long can you stay on top? And how long can you maintain successful? You know, success consistently. That that's really to me, that's what's important, and that's what I you know, that's why I say hey, people

say hey, how are you doing? How's your program for you? I don't know. I'll tell you someday when we look back at it, you know, and we assess it from a mountain the distance somewhere, not right now, not when we're in the middle of it. Fair enough, I won't

answer you that question. So you you wrote your book coaches are teachers and this is an area of mutual interests of ours as well, is just education more generally, And I was wondering how you some of these principles you apply as a coach, do you think could be

applied by teachers in elementary school for instance? Yeah, for a long time I thought that, Yeah, you know, I think it's a it's a little bit of a way of life for us, you know, and the way we think about everything, and whether you're teaching, or whether you're you know, a manager or in business, or you're a

group leader, or you're a parent. You know, I think the principles apply, and the principles you know that we really talk a lot about it could be to create you know, it's really a big deal for us to relate on all levels to all people if we can, that's what we're striving for. And that means that we're trying to make sense that if you'll care for the people around you and and really care to the to the point where you want them to be the best they could possibly be, well, that's kind of like being

a parent, you know what I'm saying. It's in your kids. It's not any different. And so it's it's perspective that it's made sense to me that if you really love somebody, you'll do anything to help them. And so if you really care, you'll do anything to help them get you get where they can go. And that's the mentality. And not many people see that as an NFL mentality, you know,

they don't understand what that's all about. So we're trying to help people along the way, you know, figure themselves out see where they could go understand themselves and then and then hopefully keep striving to find the best that they have to offer. And so that's always been the way, and it's been fun. It's a fun pursuit because you're always working for the best for other people. Yeah, I bet,

I bet, it's real fun. Hey everyone, If you find the themes we cover on the Psychology Podcast interesting and enlightening, you might be interested in my new book, Transcend, The New Science of Self Actualization. The book is the culmination of my journey to scientifically discover the factors that can lead us to optimal health, growth, creativity, peak experiences, and

deep fulfillment. I believe we can still manage to have peak experiences, the most wondrous moments that make life worth living, regardless of our current life circumstances. We can choose growth for more. You can visit Transcend hyphenbook dot com. A's transcend hyphenbook dot com with a hyphen between the word transcend and the word book. If you get a chance to read the book, it'd be great if you could leave a review on Amazon, tweet about it, or share

the book with friends. I truly hope this book can help people get through these tough times and realize that we all have greater resiliency, creativity, and potential within us than we ever realized. Okay, now back to the show. So when you're recruiting new players for your team, what are some of the most important characteristics you're looking out for. Well that you know, for a team, they've got to be physically in the profile or close to it. So

I couldn't. I couldn't join the NFL. Then, no matter how smart or woul thinks, you wouldn't hit the water if you fell out of a boat. What does that mean? What does that mean? No, you got to you gotta be physical, want to hit somebody, And I don't think you want to do that, and you shouldn't. You shouldn't want to do that. So I'll take that as a

compliment exactly That's that's exactly right. But what we're looking for really when you get down to once we clear that the kind of the physical requirements that it takes is, uh, we're looking for the attitude that they bring and the mentality that they bring. And we're looking for Uh, if we had ideally set up it would start with passion.

You know, they'd be passionate about what they're doing, and we would want to see people that know how to to keep coming back at you and keep and not give up and persevere, you know, and then we would hopefully build a relationship with the game that they play where they would develop an attitude where nothing is going to keep them from getting what they wanted to get or go where they wanted to go, and they could

bounce back from whatever. And that's resilience. And I'm just talking right down, the right down the about grit, you know, and those are the elements that really are its forefront for you know, being great, and that's what we're looking for. Yeah, because I'm just so interested in this and this is a common threat in my own career, trying to understand the role of talent versus the role of other factors.

And I was reading into your your own personal history and when you got to high school your freshman year, you were maybe not the strongest, shall we say, I'm trying to be polite the real bank. Yeah, yeah, I look like the team mascot, you know, Suberty had passed me by or missed me or something of flowing over the house or something like that. One hundred and ten pounds.

And I was a freshman in high school and uh, I mean my in the in the team picture, I looked like a little kid sitting next to everybody else, you know. But but you became a multi uh sport star in high school. This is the point I want to make here, is that you know you still what did what did you bring to the table there? Then? Well, during that time, you know, up until that, everything had

been cruising along pretty well. I was doing all right and playing a lot of sports, and playing baseball, basketball and football. And then when that happened, I kind of I was almost out of the I was out of the profile in the sense, and so what happens, I got pissed. You know, I was mad, man. I was mad that I couldn't because I had this vision of who I was and within and I couldn't project it where anybody else even knew. So I just had to

sit there and wait it out. You know. A couple of years later, I started growing a little bit and caught up a little bit and got back in the in the frey kind of. And by the time I was a freshman in college, I went to junior college, still developing and that's you know, I got my full height and waight then, you know, and it took a long time. So that for me and a kid that had really high expectations, it was really it was a struggle. And I was so frustrating because it was like it

was like a bad dream. You know, I just couldn't I couldn't get my own way. I couldn't get going and get started. See. I really resonated with that story, just just being People thought I was slow when I was young because I had an auditory thing and I was mad the same way you were mad. That's like, well I think I'm capable of more, right, Yeah, and that sort of interfire you have it. I love that. I really love hearing stories like that. I want to

read a quote from Bill Walton. He said, what I love about Michael Jordan is that he was not the best at anything. He was not the biggest, he was not the strongest, he was not the highest jumper. But he was incredibly incredible, incredibly smart, and incredibly disciplined and driven. Do you have players like that on your team? Sure? We do. For years, you know, we've we've had a team that was made up of half of our guys were draftees and half of whom were free agents, you

know that we acquired as it weren't drafted. And the year we won the Super Bowl, I think we had twenty six of the fifty three guys were undrafted players, you know. And so that that's a common theme, you know, in sports and performing not just sports, is any performance oriented environment and in work environments too. It's the same that the people who have the deepest desire and the

most passion for for proving who they are. Uh and and and they also really it's the elements of gritic goes back to those that will kind of hang through the hard times and the tough times. They don't back down and quit the or or side step. They go right through it and stay after it. You know. It's that mentality. And the easy way to explain is the

chip on the shoulder mentality. But what really is Scott's people have some they have really something to prove in whatever they're they're they're finding their purpose in and that that that the power to prove that is what drives them beyond what normal you know people would would inspire like. And so that's really what's crucial and when you go back to what are you looking for, I'd rather play

with those guys. I'd rather play with the guys like if I was going when it gets right down to it and you're picking players, I'm going to pick the guy that I want to play with, the guy that I would want if I'm playing a game in the park, that guy on my team. And that's not always the best athlete or the guy that's got all the accolades and all the person that wants to fight artists, you know, And so we've built our team around that mentality for years.

That's awesome. So tell me a little bit about Compete to create. What's its mission? Well, the mission is to help people find the best and simply, and that means that we're going wherever we got to go and work and wherever we can work to help people people, you know, see what they're capable of doing and then in essence, coach them along the way and show them why they're worthy of dreaming the way they dream and seeing what they see for their future and trying to help them

manifest that and bring it to lights. So we do it with a real, real clear sense of how valuable it is to demonstrate that you care. You know, and when you care for people and you listen to them and you'll look after them, and you'll learn what's important to them, and you'll you'll pour yourself into what so that you can serve them the best and compete to create.

That's really important us that we translate that. We think that if you take just like all teams I've ever been around, if you treat people in that with that thought that you're going to help them find their best and you really truly care and you're gonna you relentlessly are in pursuit of that. They're gonna know that and they're gonna feel it, and they're gonna also they're going to recognize that value that maybe they others hadn't recognized

in them, and they'll perform at a higher level. They'll find a deeper sense of loyalty and connectedness, uh, and they'll they'll give you everything they got. And we've just found over the years, if we can connect with players like that, we were more consistent than other people. So it sounds like an addition to grit, you also have love.

That's a big characteristic that you promotelt I didn't always know that, you know, Scott, when I was coming along but that but I realized that that that really what was driving it, you know, was the care for the people, and in essence, it's the love. And the easiest way for me to explain it is if you look at like a parent, like I said, you know, how would you go about helping your children become what they can become?

You'll do whatever you can think of. Well, to me, that's how we live Compete to Create and try to translate that and offer that to other people to understand that. So I'd like to take a moment to talk about Pete's company, Compete to Create, since we're talking about it as a thank you to all the frontline workers for COVID nineteen, Pete and his company Compete to Create are offering a free online course and high performance mindset called

Warrior's Edge. The unique curriculum, tailor to the various military, government, and first responder branches, will prepare personnel with mindset skills that will transform their lives, both both professionally and professionally.

The course is an incredible inside look into Pete's philosophy, culture, and leadership that we're talking about right now and also includes insights and teachings from his partner at Compete to Create high performance psychologist, doctor Michael Gervais, also a friend of mine and former F nineteen fighter pilot doctor Janelle mcaula. You can find it by going to their website at Compete tocreate dot Net backslash Warriors Edge, that's Compete to

Create dot Net Backslash Warrior's Edge. It will be available for free for anyone working with COVID nineteen throughout the end of twenty twenty. So that's a pretty good offer there. Yeah, it's a time for us to we're all introspective right now. We have this special time with our families and staying home and all of that. And those that will visit the course, they'll see that it begins with self discovery.

It really starts very early there and takes you through the process of uncovering some of the things that you just haven't recognized or realized about yourself as you move forward, and self discovery process is so crucial, Scott. You know in your own work, that is what it's all about. You know, you meet the challenges and meet the needs that you have, and as you step along your way.

You eventually get to the point where you understand yourself better and more clearly, and you develop your authenticity, and you get stronger as you move, and you become, you know, two version of what you're capable of being. You're talking

my language, brother, talking to my language. A thing was out there because it's kind of a little bit of a forgotten art, and I'm really fired up proud for you that you've been able to put it together in such a beautiful book and transcendence and hopefully you're gonna the people that will read it will be will beuh be transformed. So thank you. That really means a lot to me. So yeah, let's unpack authenticity for a second. What does authenticity look like in this in a sports context?

What do you think like the healthiest form of authenticity looks like? Well, it's interesting, you know, you'd ask, because, uh, it's on many levels. You know, authenticity on many levels. No one is knowing you know truly who you are. You can think of it as a person individual. Okay, guy really knows himself really well, he's confident and all that, and the steps you know, to his own beaten and all.

But a team can also know who they are, and they can be in that great sync with the capabilities and the makeup and the mentality that they all share and become really one mind. And that's it's truly what championship teams wind up, uh, you know, transitioning, transforming or transcending to you know. Uh, that's that's what in my coaching,

that's what I'm after. I'm trying to help teams figure out really who they are and then we just once we latch onto that, then it's our it's our challenge to consistently represent that and ils demonstrate and illustrate that when we when we come to game time. So to me, authenticity has known who you are and then and consistently, you know, being the person you know yourself to be. You know, that's or being the team you know yourself to be. And it's it's quite clear. I know it's

a theme with your work. You know your your your belief in the importance of self belief is huge, right. Self talk is enormous, you know, positive supportive self talk, That mechanism uh for growing and learning and really being authentic is so huge because you can talk yourself out of anything or talk yourself in almost anything, you know it's true. So where there's a real discipline too. If you believe that, then there's a real discipline to the kind of self talk that will support who you are

and what you're all about. So what's the difference between unbelievable self belief and narcissism? Where do you draw the line? Well, you know, I don't understand narcissism that well, you know as it you know, you know, I don't really understand that well, but I would say that it's all about truth. It's really truth. Are you? Are you that what you say you are? Are you that? What you as you act?

And I think I would think that narcissism has to do with something that you wish you were and something that you would hope that people would see you as in yours and that's what you You live to that standard, and so the truth isn't there, you know, And so maybe that's that's that's that as easy I can say, well, I think you nailed it. You nailed it. That's that's what hundreds of psycho logical research studies support. Is what you just said. Okay, that makes that makes you feel

any better? Well, you know, lucky you looked at Yeah, because narcissism really is about defending an image that you have of yourself that might not be true, right, and defending it at all costs. It seems to me like growth requires the form of self belief you're talking about, which is and that sometimes that may mean being vulnerable. Dare I say use such a word, or or or opening yourself up to failure, you know what I mean?

I would think our friend Brene Brown would say, it is about vulnerability, you know, It's about being willing, you know, willing to put yourself out there and because you know it's the right thing to do, and that if you really believe in yourself and you're really trusting yourself, then you you know that you're going to make it through it, you know, And so that's you know, that's great work. It takes great work for individuals to get to that point.

But that willingness to be vulnerable is where like she said, you know, put yourself out there there to lead, you know. And yeah, I think that's her first book, you know, and she was She's the foremost authority there is, I think on vulnerability. And she would say right off the bat that it's only courage only comes through vulnerability. Yeah. She's been on the Psychology podcast. Yeah, so you're in good company. We just had a podcasts the other day a couple of days ago. So I love that podcast

with you and Steve Kerr. Right, yeah, that's fun. Yeah, it's so much, so great. So do you ever give pep talks to your players where you use the word vulnerability. Yeah, Brene's talk to our team. She's come in and visited with our club and so yeah, and we're constantly trying to help our guys evolve to the point where they're okay about that. And as she told us, she remind us the other day, you have to build an environment

where it's okay. You know, somebody says something like you know, I was really scared to make that tackle or something like that, and everybody they will fetch you and they get well, you know, when's that going to say that again? You know, So you have to build And she was talking about building a container. I think of a sense of an environment that will allow for people to be vulnerable and support people to be vulnerable and realize that, hey, that was pretty cool that you did that, because we

know that was hard. That was tough to say what you just said. And so you know, our whole process, really, Scott is it's a one big session of trying to grow, you know, and and take advantage and capture the teachable opportunities and grow as much as we can. And that makes us better. It makes us better as people, It makes us better as a teammate, and certainly makes us a better club too. You know, when Brene when I were talking on the podcast, we talked about the link

between vulnerability and creativity, and creativity is interesting. I'd love to get your own perspective on creativity because merely being an expert doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be creative and flexible out there on the field when you have to share your expertise in a certain way. So I'm wondering how you try to cultivate creativity among your players as well. Okay, well, the first thought has that that

creativity comes from taking a chance. You got to take a risk, and you got to, you know, because you put yourself out there. You know, say like you're painting the picture. You know, paint a picture somebody, if somebody's gonna look at it, you know, you're going to get you know, observed, and you're going to get critiqued and all that you got it. You know, maybe our artists have such a hard time, you know, because you put

yourself out there so much, you know. But how we develop and look for creativity to show up is through the discipline. It's through the repetitions. It's through the practice that that you just practice without critique won't get it done, but practice with getting coached it will. It will help you, meaning that as you get better through the repetitions and

you start to develop skill. When when it's a coach shows you that you're getting better, a coach reminds you of what you know, what you're capable of doing, and they kindstant they're challenging you to do more because they know they see it in you. And so there as it happens, what my biggest job is to show us how good we are. I got to show I guess how good they are, and so that they can own that and feel worthy enough to trust themselves. And that's

where confidence comes from. And so it's from that accomplishment in your process where the creativity can start to speak. It's through the discipline of the art. You know, and I've used the example over the years, like if you teach somebody to play Mary had a little lamb on the piano, you know, and they just dink their way through it, and you say, Okay, come back next week,

but practice this every day for two hours. By the time they get back to you, a novice can start playing with it and they can show a little different rhythm, and they can put a little slide on it. They can they can make it sound like it's stepped up, and it's like they jazz it up because they've developed the skill that allows them the uninhibited creativity. That's where the freedom comes from from the skill. So to me

that the creativity comes through that process. When you feel like you have a real sense for something and you believe in it, now you're ready to express it, that's when the greatest creativity occurs. So you see that as a major characteristic differentiating good athletes from great athletes, oh, without question. And it comes from the successes and the confidence. It's not just the athleticism. That's not it. You to be like, I don't know, if you're watching Last Dance

that's on on ESPN, I love it. I love it because that's my childhood right there. Yeah, Yeah, in incredible sequence that we're watching of them teaching us what it was like. But you see that, you see the greatness in Michael Jordan is is his drive and passion to be unstoppable. Well, there's other people that are like that too, but they don't have his gifts. Now, I know that often talked about him not having this or that one. Michael's pretty freaking down. He could jump, he could lead,

you know, he was quick, he was explosive. I mean, it was all those things. And now you add that passion to now you see what that's like. Kobe, you see the greatest of all time, you know, and you see it's really interesting that it's so clear to watch it in basketball and that sport in particular. There's such freedom there in that in that game and and all that you can see the de straordinary unique, you know,

special quality of those guys have. Yeah, let's unpack that for a second, because you talk about vision and you differentiate that sometimes from a personal philosophy. I was wondering if you could talk about the difference between those two and then I want to get back to Kobe in a second. Well, Philosophy is like, it's the collection of

your beliefs. To me, you know, it's all the things that you believe in and you put it together and you have them up and then you kind of see that maybe there's a common theme in there somewhere, there's you know, some some commonality that you can you can state that this represents, you know, what I believe. You know, always compete because there's I can't make it. It's as

simple as I can make it. I mean, it's it's not very involved philosophy, but it's just you know, so but that that's so it's philosophy and me is a collection of beliefs. And uh and what else did you ask about? You asked about, Uh, how is that different from you? Well? Yeah, vision is kind of uh, that's that's what what you're shooting for. You know that that's what you think you can become. And it is what

gives you purpose. You know if the vision, the vision to be something or somewhere or to create something is what gives you the purpose. You know, without purpose, you know you're going to be flapping in the wind. So philosophy is kind of how you uh, you know, how

you what you believe in. And then the vision is is is a way of stating what your purpose is, you know, how how you're going to carry that philosophy, Like I can carry the philosophy I have, I think, to a football team, but I could, I think I could. I could work in a school, or I could work in a in a office building, you know, yeah, with that philosophy, but I choose to do it in football. That's my vision. My vision is to as a football coach, you know, in the end, to help help people be

play football teams. And so so to me, I think the vision to me, I don't is right at all. I have no clues, but visions a purpose, you know, it connects to purpose. Yeah, So the vision. It's interesting because you see in these individuals like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. You do see these very early. You see the seeds of it very very early. That kind of vision.

I always I'm fascinated because I also I studied in my career prodigies those who by the age of ten have a fully formed thing, but they knew they made it such a connection like Yoyoma made a connection to Cello when he was very very young. He said, this is me Howard Gardner's called Howard Gardner calls it the crystallizing experience. And I actually I went to middle school in high school with Kobe Bryant, and and I noticed even in middle school he was in eighth grade when

I was in sixth grade. But we would watch him play in we're talking about an eighth grader, but he played I can I could. I could imagine remember in my head he'd play as though he was Michael Jordan, but not like all of us played like we're you know, like we want to be like Mike. He played like with this intensity that was like in his head, he was already Michael Jordan, you know. And it was clear

that so the seed was just so there. And I I'm fascinated by all of the genetic, environmental factor, all the factors that combine. But you too, tend to see with this kind of level of greatness. You do just tenden see very very early, some vision is kind of already planted in them. It's it's fascinating to me to watch. Yeah, he had an early connection with greatness, you know, and he was already on and that's why he works on it.

How do you ever find that work? Ever, four years after years and eighth grader, he was in the NBA. I know, that's right, four years later. You know what we do when you left high school, you know, you imagine playing against you know, the great players are playing. But he could he couldn't see anything but that. And I see that, uh in Russell Wilson, you know, on our team, and he he just has this vision for greatness.

And then he's been on course to be great as far back as he can remember, you know, inspired by his father and his mother and the family. But it was more than that. I mean, you know, he didn't have all of those same attributes that that Kobe had. Now Kobe didn't either when he was an eighth grader, but he certainly had the connection with greatness, and uh, we don't see it. We don't see it often enough. You know. It's it's I wish I wish it would

show up more. It's so obvious sports because it's on TV. You can watch it, you know. But I'm sure that there's you know, greatness in moms and dads and architects and doctors and you know, and teachers and all that too. And we just don't get to see it enough. But it's there. I love that, and I completely agree. It's all around us, and we often miss it because we're looking at the wrong metrics like we do in school. So you have this quote you said, without purpose and meaning,

there won't be winning. Well, that's a really unique take on things I can't imagine and every coach thinks that way. So why do you think purpose and meaning can increase your chances of winning in sports? You have to you have to have direction, you know, you have to you have to be driven, and so you need to be Purpose gives you clarity and then and then it's got

to really mean something to you, you know. And and uh, that's why you know, I'm talking about passion right but you know we have our friend Angela deck with it. She helped me with with with verbiage and terminology, and she she gave me a real leap forward by using you know, passion and perseverance Brasilien. So those those, those are those need to be necessary. I mean they're necessary if you do great things, you know, and and uh, and if you're if you don't have purpose and you

don't know where to put your this unique greatness. Whatever you have you don't have, you need somewhere to put it, you know. And we see people that want through their lives and they don't they don't get connected, and it's it's a terrible you know miss you for to miss out on on purpose when you have that drive that they just can't quite get it focused. You know. That's what we do as coaches. We try to help guys channel you know, this what they bring to the game,

and uh, I think you can do it. And people working in the office buildings too. It's one of the things I think that then see to see I come back to that one is that we're hoping to teach people in the business setting that if you if you champion the people in your in your organization and figure out who they are and learn what they're all about and and care so much that you bring out who they are and make it okay for them to be them, they're going to perform better for you and your company

is going to be way better. I mean, it's going to be way better than somebody's sitting there and afraid to say who they are, what they're all about. And so that's it's all that thinking Scott that you know, the tight us together, that it connects you and I also with your background and your your purpose and you know mine and my purpose and uh on it. You know, we're on something really special, I think absolutely. And speaking of our common thread, how has humanistic psychology influenced your

own personal philosophy? People like Carl Rogers and Abraham Maso have they influenced you? Yeah? Yeah, I got way back at the day, you know, and there's not many of us left, you know, humanistic psychology is like almost prehistoric. But what it made sense to me back when I was in graduate school, you know, back at the univers of Pacific and a couple of instructors were were just kind of figuring it out and just kind of uncovering it.

We were reading, you know stuff, and towards Psychology of Being was was one of the books that that was at the foundation from maybe have Maslow, you know, and and I think Carl Rodgers had on becoming or something

like that was becoming a person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And those those concepts, for whatever reasons got there made sense to me in that I did my thesis, my my my graduate thesis on compare connecting the highest achieving athletes in sports with their as they measured up towards self actualization on a on an inventory that I found, you know, And so I was trying to compare the level of self actuation actualization with with their level of achievement in the sport. You know. It was the worst study of

all time. He no significant difference anywhere and anything, but it showed you what the connection had already been made for me, you know, and I you know, I couldn't help, but it just it just did. And I've been kind of in pursuit of making sense of that for a long time. There's a couple of us out there, Scott. I was gonna say, that's pretty badass. Where when we need him? You know? Yeah? Yeah. Do you think he'd

be a Seahawks fan or an Eagles fan? I say that because I'm yeah, he'd be a freaking Seahawks fan. I don't want him over Okay, I'll let that go. Okay, you say every day should be a kind of super Bowl, Well I love that, But can you operate a little bit on that what that means? Well, yeah, I don't. I don't know if that was an original thought as much as you know, was learned thought and one of my early mentors, you know, John Wooden, you know, to

make every day a masterpiece? Why would you not? Why would you not go out and just to create the best day you can possibly create? I don't know, why what are you thinking if you don't go for it? You know, And so so that's basically where it comes from. It's it's, you know, the pretty optimistic, pretty positive way of looking at things. But why wouldn't you make each day a great day? And it's to me, the main

point of that is it's a choice. You know. We we make choices on how we've decided to live our lives and we're the only ones that really control that. We can feel like we're controlled by everybody else, but we're the ones, you know. And so that's why I always come back to, you know, we have the power to choose as we want to live this thing, and then we're up against it. We got to fight our way through it until we get, you know, get where we need to go and easy. It's hard, you know,

and that's why you got to keep coming back. And that's why it's so important to have a mentality that allows you to because otherwise you kind of well, you know, this is what it is, and I got nowhere to go. You know, I understand that, and I understand why where people get there, and and but if through on my team, I'll coaching them up trying to get out of that. You know, well, I want to be on your team. You're very uplifting. We're on the same team. What are

you talking about? We're on the same team. Then I should say I'm glad that I'm on your team, because your team. If you write a book called Transcendence, man, thank you, thank you. Uh well, it's called transcend Good. There you go. But no, I you're very uplifting. And you know, every time I talk to you, I leave wanting to win a super Bowl in whatever that looks like in my own personal life. No, no, we don't win this field. We don't want to win the super

Bowl necessarily. We want to be the best we can be, Scotty, be the best, be the best we could be. That's super Bowl. Those championships they come, they come, they come to you. You know, when you when you're right, they emerge. They want to happen, to happen. It's kind of like transcendence. It emerges. It's not the transcend well, transcendence is a word. Though I love it. We're like jostling in this this podcast. I love it important. Yeah, bad one. Are you either

competing or you're not? I love it well, But we're also having fun. And what extent is fun and important value of yours on the on the field, Yeah it is. If we're not having fun, I'm screwing up, you know. I mean, we're playing the game. We get to play. Man, It's it's a blast, and it's it's hard, you know at times, and all that, but the heart doesn't mean it's not fun, you know. And and so, uh, you know, I always want to stay connected to it as best

we can, you know. And uh, I want to make the experience that that people have when they're with us memorable and and and enjoyable. And I want them to laugh, and I want to have a good time with it, and I want them to to find the joy in it. And because it's hard, you know. And so I think the combination and the mixture of the great challenge and and and for of all and the fun that comes with it and the achievement that is also part of fun is it goes hand in hand, you know. And

so if we're not having fun, I'm screwing up. So in my life, what would it mean for me to be winning as a psychologist? Totally? It would be I mean emphatically, it would be you being the best psychologist you can be. That's all. That's all, that's all it is. That's all we can ever aspire to. If we aspire to things other than that kind of you're you're making yourself crazy. You know. We can't control with outside of this what we can only control that which is right

there right in front of us right now. That's that's about being mindful. That's about being in the moment. That's about being right now present. That's that's what this is all about. And if you try to be something nut, it just frustrates you more and you won't. You won't perform as well, you won't perform. Just perform, Scott, just the way you can, as in that psychology hat that you put on, and that's kick ass. That's that's that is winning. The winning isn't I made somebody healthy and

I changed their life. That's that's just the things that happened along the way. What you're trying to do because that's outside of you. Will you just be a great you, you know, and make sure you're you know what that is? You to figure out what that is, you know, and so uh, if you can do that, and then you can consistently keep finding your way back to it no matter what happens, you keep coming back to being you, well, then then you're on it. Then you then you do

it great And that's a you know. The guys I love is you see the old guy sitting on the park bench. You know, he's got the trumpled hat and the old jacket on or something like that, and you know he's trying to just sitting there and you think, oh, that poor guy, you know. And and he wouldn't change that hat for anything in the world. He wouldn't change He'd go to that same park bench and sit where he says because he knows exactly what's important to him.

He knows exactly what you know. That's it, you know, And and there's great peace and great harmony and for that, you know, people in that and they've they've found out that's important to him. You know. I love I love that so much. You have no idea how much I love that, or maybe you do have an idea, but

it's it's wonderful. Do you could you give a little bit of a pep talk, even if it's a couple of sentences to people right now who because of COVID feel like they're having a hard time being their best selves because they have so much fear. Yeah, you know, we're all in this thing and we're all trying to figure it out. I don't have answers. I wish I did, but I do know. I do know we've got to keep battling, you know, we've got to keep pushing it.

And as long as we're pushing to make this day a good day, and we'll figure out, Okay, gets prepared for that next week, We go that next day and just put one day together, one day at a time, and make it as good a day as you can. And generally that will come from helping somebody else. Generally that's from giving to somebody else. It kind of it's interesting to me that question would be answered to be

a great teammate. You know, being a great teammate is serving others and putting the people around you first, no matter how hard it is. I think we can always find somebody that we can help. And if we're helping, we're making good. And for making good, it's a good day. Let's go to the next one, you know. And so when it's darkest and there's always somebody that's having a harder time than you are, and if we could find them, help them, uplift, you know, feed them, hug them, whatever

it is. I think that's that's kind of what we're up to right now, looking out after the ones around us that need our help, and that that's the best way to keep us motivated and keep us really actively doing good stuff here here. So I know that you like thinking in five your increments, So I have a question for you relating to that, what's your vision of humans in five years if they practice the psychological skills

that you teach your athletes. Oh man, easy question. I think we're on course to finding the new empathy, you know. I've tried to write about that before, try to make sense of it. But I think we're on the verge of We've seen so much crap going on around us, and so much dishonesty and stuff around us that I think we're going to come through this. And I think people are sensing it already by being around their family

so much and being home so much. Is that there is great a space for new empathy and understanding of others and caring for others. And I hope, I mean, whether that's going to happen or I don't know, but that's what I hope happens. And I hope we discover how valuable that will be in our own personal lives if we can see the world that way. Beautiful. I usually like to end my interviews with picking one of my favorite quotes from the guest I have on. So

here's a quote, But aren't any. There aren't any with me, so we can't will not end it. There's there's all too many. It took me like a while to figure out which is the one, the one I'm gonna end with, So I'd like to end with this one. Strong trusting relationships among people who are striving to be the best versions of themselves create something powerful. I want to thank you for creating something powerful, not only with your team and your company, but with the world at large and

even people you know, people like me. You know, I do my psychology with this mentality that you espouse, and you uplift me and inspire me, and I just want to thank you so much for the chat today. Well, I appreciate that, Scott, you uplift me too. I'm so proud that you've done the work that you've done so far. There's not many people see it, and I hope that that transcend really comes out huge for you and people who understand that there's great depth here. Nice going, man, Congrats,

Thanks coach. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology Podcast dot com. Also, please add a reading and review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to the Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying to increase

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