Paul Wong || Existential Positive Psychology

two influential volumes on the human quest for Meaning. A prolific writer, he is one of the most cited existential and positive psychologists, the originator of Meaning Therapy and International Meaning Conferences. He has been invited to give keynotes and meeting therapy workshops worldwide. Doctor Wang is the recipient of the Carl Rogers Award from the Society for Humanistic Psychology. Doctor Wang, what an honor it is to chat with

you today, me too. Where should we even begin? You know, I'll tell you I was looking through all of your papers, going all the way back, trying to trace the development of your research and thinking, going on the way back to your work with Rats Wow in the seventies. In the seventies, the effect of food deprivation and imprinting on the behavior of young domestic chicks. I think that might have been one of your first papers nineteen seventy one more no, my, my where to help people with that?

That was wow sixties. Yeah, I worked with rash first. Wow. So actually all my research at the same scene, m scene the same is how can animals or human beings survive and schrife in deprivation in average concation. That would be my scene this' that's why I come myself with a central part of psychologists because life is hard, live is hard for all animals. So I fell up the fishes. You are now strong or eaten? Eat or eating? So

that has been my my, my question. How can we how can we s live strife in the face of threat, obstacles, danger, So that is not just a philosophical question because while the born Japan, Japan, you wed the China, you know, we're growing up with with the window tape with paper strips mhm. So that would not be shattered. And at night we used to little oil land and cannot turn

the light. Going with four years old to Japan with Germanese soldiers with guns came to a house, want to take over the house so we could all move out. So I was shipped to All children were shipped different families. So I was shipped to a removed relative. They put me in the basement for lights and darkness, and I was very nice there, you know, was with my whole

body being on by bucks. So therefore you and then we escaped to Hong Kong est So that's why I said, well, there's a lot of the process that calls about life in your true and part of the territories I think on me to have moved my life is a narrative territory. Mm hmmm. What So where were you born? Well, let's back up a second. Where were you born? In what year? Mans is nineteenth? Studies seven in Tangi wow, wow wowow. And so where did you Where did you go to college?

I went to I went to the college in Calgne University, Okay. I came in Canada to study a Calgary A Calgary, yeah, Colgne University, okay, in Canada, in Ottawa. Yeah. And then you up for my period yeah okay. And then at what point did you get interested in psychology? I would you know? I was? It's a college one when there's a kid, No, I don't. I always wondered white people losing that way? Why people say that you know us? Yes, ob Now what happened to me in my currents? Die?

Oh yeah? Who look after me? And what happen why I die? So I was wrestling with usual death was eight and nine years old? Wow? Wow, I was born a sat philosopher. Yeah, so you were. Were you interested in the existential philosophers? Yeah? Yeah, of course I read all it, you know, in my teens, I read all right to him books. Yeah. Yeah. And it's what's really interesting about you is that you really you predate the field of positive psychology by quite a bit. I mean

you were I was looking back you. You came up with a well the perceived well Being scale in nineteen eighty four, the year Michael Jackson won the Grammy I want one. I think one of the first questions tell me about that. I did their land story with with me and and the and Marty. Okay, we actually started about the same time. See, when he was doing research and helplessness, I was doing research both with with animals.

I was doing research with learning optimism, learn the courage. Okay, yeah, So I wrote to him, I said, Mary, I say, I I don't think that animals can become helpless so readily, because if they become helpless up to some exposure to non contingent plantations do not have survived. I say, you an your dot, I've got really been reduced to the helpless stay thing consternation, I said, I you understand the street dogs. They will not be so easily redue to helplessness.

We lit on this will show that that's right. A wild dog would not be become helpless so soon. And also I say that your human beings, as opposed to I feel new contingent enforcement become helpless. Still it no, but I can graduate to become helpless. That is artifact. So I will see my career man, but as damn myself here will say I'm not helpless. I'm just still it to waste my time. I notice hosing is ripped.

There's something to me that as helplessness. So I oh research you know with animals the human to put Marty is wrong and his his partner Steep mayor agree with me. Amazing. This is so you contacted Marty in the eighties. In the sixties you said, you said email, So I don't think email existed then, but you wrote him letters. Yeah. Well yeah, so uh step may I like my work. See who did Steep Mayor? Yeah, Steve Mayor. Yeah, Marty's collaborating me and collaborator on the Wow. He's a teacher

of of Chris Chris Peterson. Yes, yes, of course may with Frank. So he was serving on the on the National Institute of Mentor I am h committee, So why from me to take over? And I am aged about about about logical behapule signed panel. So and also he came to my conference where I met your where I met your mentor Robert Sternberg. Know yet what year was that? What year was that conference? I was way back, you know, there was anyway, So see me, I came to my conference,

came to my simposium. Uh helplessness, uh doing interpretational helplessness. But anyway, so because I had to agree with Martie so well, puties are great because we're doing findings right. So for some reason it God of marriage me. I don't know what he what Citian he got married me. He got mad, He got mad of you for for doing what exactly because the questioning he said, But then he ended up creating a whole field based on But then he created a whole field based on it. Yes,

I've started my animal research that you know. I actually talked with Skinner. Skinner, yes, Skinner, Yeah, I actually christ monuments game. I have learned to a team, so I said, I said, I talked to Skin. I said, Skinner, you know you open conditioning is it's the first level, the higher level of open conditioning, because animals can learn us the girlfriend the first level. So I took a data scar agree with me, but he died it on so so this decision, he might be increable on culatuity. So

I want to teach rise rooms. The one rule is the creativity you know was I invented a two par skin about so the God reinforcement only when they learned to alternate lift right, life right, they're gonna freshman part. They had an alternate. They learned the rule of alternation. God enforced only one day, press two hair to left. I think with them, I teach the right how they count either. Also, it is interesting, so I do it rem sleep right with red with color Smith. It's a

sleep researcher. This is very interesting. Why do you teach the animals simple learning? Uh? Them sleep? You know we know that. But for animal creativity that you're doing game. There's some rest, canoe run, there's there's stupid rest. Some rats will never learn a while. That's amazing. Well, I wonder if that's the case with humans as well. Luck clear at alternate you know they fixed it and went far.

They have to switch firing under gaving enforcement. So you should we find that there a few animals who were able to learn. They show a huge ramp sleep people next day they got it. The restaurant show that showed a huge jump in ram sleep never learn. So if somehow that their brain that little rap branding side, you know the rule there, so they're able to learn a higher holder thing. I see ye, all there able to teach animal to learn pressure bar that can increase the

efficiency of enforcement anaba the higher holder. The skinner never got studied at that's amazing. When did you do those studies? Was that early on in your career? That was in the in the sixties in the late sixties. Wow? Wow. And also I also challenge roter I challenged everybody the locus of control guy, the locus of control guy. Well, I said, rat, you're all wrong it. Also, you really stir the pot there, doctor Long, I said, you're all right.

I said that you force people to choose in I turned out, Now the world don't operate that way, as say I said. Chinese guys are posting internal and external same time. See we look hid internal, or we do credit for teachers, for parents, or I'm able to succeed because my teacher is very good when my parents apartment studied. So we're able to do So that I understand why Chinese people they didn't have to figure it out how good they cannot measure. They cannot measure the true picture

to the four temperatures either one. So I developed internal eternal as two independent dimensions. So behold, the Chinese guys are both high in internal and external dimensions. So I said that should be applied to all the research that most variables are not are not two values on the same dimensions, you know, type lal independent dimensions. So that is so that can change trying the whole feel about measurement. You're on your two independent dimensions, then you're a lot.

Must make creativity a lot of the maximum cottony possibility, right yeah, uh hm, lid are after me? Uh uh. The guy in in Michigan with the Chinese that the pant and they say all Chinese people are more factable connectively. They see things, you know differently. I found it a long time ago. If they never see I'm based in Canada, they would pay attention to my research. So that's why you invited me. I said, well, that's too many for me to share my ideas. People don't pick Canada seriously,

they don't. They don't. Then't take Canada serious. Everything in America, right I do. My best friend lives in Canada. Oh there, you are different. That's why you you you you invited me. They are grateful to you. Right, Okay, there's a lot a lot going on here right now, a lot a lot that you're talking about. Well, I'm doing everything trying to find out what they Yeah. So so my thinkings were different from people in the West because of my

training is different. Right in Chinese? You know who I'm the kid my parents pictures taught me. You've got to work harder. Heard the top people work the harder. Okay, yes, yeah, and then shines saying that you will do it and your suffering in a young age, you're never sure saying life. So that idea in greening my mind. You do work and do suffering and do work hard. You're never a month to anything. Mm hm. So that's quiet. I see that now. Not American people want to easy life. They

can easy easily with so sacrifice with stufffraing. You know, I said, oh, that's not real life. So now and damn it, people can realize now life is difficult with the pandemically lockdown people look not I employed bankrop that's just sick. So now it goes into a reality. The love is hard, So I say, love it hard. Do you know that those part psychologists say I'm accientific, I'm too pessimistic at I criticized for years by polypsychologists. Well,

this is why you're an existential positive psychologist. I think you may be the only existential positive psychologist on the planet. The epistential people treat psychology, I know, I know, it's ridiculous. I've been trying to unite all these all these different factions, and I mean, why not just call yourself a humanistic an existential humanistic psychologist. That's what I That's what I am.

I'm just curious. Yeah, it is easy. So you Yeah, you're amazing because you call yourself human psychologists, and yet the past of psychology people imprecious, but the rest humanity psychologies, the plot with them, it's a shame. It's a real shame. I'm trying to change that. Yeah, because Kirk Schneider, Yes, Churs Knight and I trying to set up a special issue of American psychologists and have a dialogue with Marty, and the channel said, hey, I do them. It never

comes to fruition. They will not, so it'd be nice to have a dialogue. They do build a dialogue. I don't know why. Definitely believes in dialogue. Hits. Yeah, great, but the anyway is never configuration. Yeah. So uh even now I write to parts of colored people like this district were a great uh uh this guy uh Duckworth, the Chinese angel Worth Yeah uh, I told her, I said, yeah, Chinese, Chinese, don't think about that. Great like that. You you know

that you're complete your courage. I had true groups of courage. It's just passion, persistence with the compaction. Well courage, you don't mean the basest scene. It's more fortitude, more and more for you to do the right thing. And also brief it. You know, I'm going to put my life on the line. I may to risk my life, not your persistent but sacrifice. So you you missed out courage, You missed out as a face to believe in something. She know? She never reply at least how good is it?

Older than you or you? Because my daughter if I thought you something right her students talk to me that was, but she don't reply me and just not did not good research her? Well, she's very busy. She's a very busy human. It was, and for the science for science, the stick of science. You another senior researcher over family discuss with you? Am I sure that you're passionate about at least you should discuss he ignore me? I love her those times? Sorry who was that? Who are you

talking about? Uhh and oh I'm sorry you said he? So I was confused. Do you mean she? Yeah? She, yeah, yeah, she's it's okay. Yeah. So yeah. I hear. I hear your frustration. I hear that you are frustrated. In twenty twenty, you wrote an article called the Unheard Cry of a Successful Asian Psychologist. That was the title of your article. What is what is the unheard cry? Exactly? If you could,

uh give you the microphone right now? What is what exactly is it is so not only people to know what I mean, the real real famous people like Skinner and the h they'll talk on me. But but for some reason, the parts of all these people, this this tribal mentality is yeah, they do want to talk to people who who questions? There the simplicity not to me. I got aize one time, but I have type of

grant for the temper ten from a conference. One reviewer with positicology that suffering has nothing to do with proschology, reject my plant. That's it's unfortunate. But I fought back. I say, suddenly, I'm gonta do with poscology. Suffering is the basic positology. So I wanted to taste I become a minute. Okay, but I'm saying that at every turn I thought this party colored people slightly. I'm reject me eleven right, consider continuing every every step of the way.

They're rejecting, rejecting, rejecting. Well, let's let's talk about your research, because let's let's focus on the positive. Let's not focus on your suffering. No, I'm joking, that's a joke. But let's let's talk a little bit about you know what's awesome about your research. You've tried to create something called PP two point zero Positive Psychology two point zero, And I just want to read a quote of yours. You said, PP.

Two point zero is concerned with how to bring out the best in individuals and society through dialectical principles of yin and yang in spite and because of the dark side of human existence. Now look, I love it. I mean I discovered your work through a textbook that I was reading to prepare for my positive psychology course I was teaching at pen There was an introductor to Positive Psychology textbook where you were featured heavily in it. So, first of all, the whole field's not against you, just

so you know. I mean, you were in this whole textbook. You were featured, you know, and I really liked your work. I really liked your work when I saw that. So if you could just elaborate a little bit on PP. Two point oho, that'd be great. Okay, I've been seeing a gang again, but nobody listen. So I'm saying that it's impossible to have physical health without have the virus and control. We know that now, right, I don't know how how healthy you are. Usually are immune. No, you

know everybody and get sick. Okay, so get physically healthy. You need to have humanization. You need to prove protective body against injury, against coxagens. The same logic applied to mental health. You have parts of mental healths or happiness. You have to protect the mind against trauma charlcoal trauma, I guess, save relationships against toxic positivity again, toxic emotions. So therefore MHM partly psychologists one serials said that just

focus on simply focus on the party's I'm realistic. No, I'm realistic. It's harmful because I was in clients. I'm miserable because they won't happiness but they can't get it the miserable. Yes, so this just single, single minded, focused and postivity. Actually pray people who are frustrated. What you press, We're anxious. True positivity tea. It's a light shining in

the darkness. True possibility must take into that count the mystery impact in the world, the condition, the work, conditions, power table, climate change, as well as the dark side. That's quite why I wrote that paper. I said, Wow, this dark side, life side, the great research. Oh it started. It's from Penn State, I said, Oh, I said, Martina must be Marty must be a hypher reverse experience. A lot of this can of research. That is the dark

side light sign. So I always tell people it can't be happy if you do hard get along with your dog twin. Everybody ego say that again. Everybody has an evil twin an evil what what twins? Twins? Twins get two sides? Then the two sides twins? Oh twins? Do you think? Do you think everyone has an evil side to them? Though? Like evil is a pretty strong word. Oh dark side, dark side, dark side, Yeah, yeah, your right side and dark side. You have the golden golden shadow,

your dark shadow. Yes, So so that's what I'm excited about your I don't want said I wish that. I wish that scart was both, but that brother not starting them acceparate with separate colors, but somehow to see how how they how how different people treat these two uh, these two parts of them differently? Those people able to transcend and integrate, Yes, they had a mental health. Better have mental health than people who fighting, who said divide

theirself prioritized minds, why within themselves? Those guys denying the dark side will have worse life. So I said, I said, oh I wish, I wish God will go to the next step. You know, yeah, true. Uh, the second wave possicology ask for a complete different, riskless strategy. That is, for us gay any passive available or do any possible influvention, you have to factor in a coherent a quarian of

the dark side as the central side. So that would give you a better picture, because I study past emotional net emotion. But the issue is separately, there's the hiddest question and proper quession. Do you want one too? The dark side and the fry side. The two sides are EASi. It's it at the tape of our work is typical algebra sitting low days, actings, and the motivation saying that the net achieved when it's equal to approach miners avaridance.

So I say, actinta, you're wrong, because who's right, who's right? In the field? What he is wrong? I said, you know, the best, the best lawyer, the best scientists, because they do want to be failed. Do that be hard? So so in that case, if they're able to have a passive approach adapted approach to feel failure mhm. They were able to turn awardance into doublely hard work to avoid that to make sure the one's going to have it

and us the motivate inter state. So if you UH a a person who can corporate and natural part and transform it will be stronger and happier and more achieving than your only focus on on the part of that is that my whole part I'm saying that you can achieve. You can be more creative, more was seeding, more purishing if you docture in the dark side looking for you just just melogic right, that would uh has lots of energy there? What is? Can you define the dark side

for me? What? What? How do I know? What's in my dark side? Come on? You know your I know agree? The extractlishness, sistic, the manipulation, trying to use people an instrument, work, work inter people as people, you manuply use people and sat path sale part you went to fever one you describe anybody on your way to get a hat. The compoleter plantations, none of them mascycle paths. They are they are equating people but misguided ad level talk about their

misguided votivations misguide their lifestyle. M hm. So that's why possible to come zero means that you recognize that everything is downside and upside you. Your dark side has an outside has done your dock side are very creative energy. The crucial energy come from your dark side and your dark side, so you do a world of dark side. They're not member your writer. The dogs had all resial ideas and how to the kunal mind. The mind is very smart mind saying how can I get the most

from this guy? A scam scam scam artists. They were smart people, you know, all the scam artists, the palms on scheme, the okhom schemes become a elevel creative story to take your money. So there's the dock side. You know you were able to hill with your dark side. I want them to help you to do bustands. You're full. I had that want to focus on project. There's some

wologic but never losing me. Well, I would push back on the thing that no one's listening to you, because there is there are there are a number of psychologists who are interested in this what what you call the second wave of positive psychology. There was a book, I think a book came out a couple of years ago on the second wave of positive psychology, and they you know, we're lauding you, lauding you, and uh yeah, my friends

Tim low Mark exactly. I think that the old car you know, the the original group, you know, like a three years ago, those guys, the monk mentality, you know, they think that we're I'm challenging their the empire did the environment and the younger guys. This filled let me so, Marchia series doesn't work with my students. You know, this isn't doesn't unreally, Yes, printing the years, uh, she's a prosperity. But now we have nine eleven and now we have pandemics.

I mean the march Is have old stop now you know it's a printing here of course change before you have the patriots. Now we have five g iPhone the world a change. So what I'm trying to understand is this, there's a lot of similarizing differences between your approach and and my and my and you know, posit psychology one point, as you would call it, so you've chosen virtue meaning resilience and well being is the core tenets of of of of posit psychology. Two point Oh is that right?

That they're my old day? I become more I've become more h more complicated enough, But anyway, so on every single issue, well given assumptions, is the assumption that true possibility, true positivity, you could existentious darkness. H Also, you cannot look at the world through the binary is the all mentality that's been silly? Mm hm. That said, because even mine is big enough to be able to hold two ideas in two hands, well both and you know, like

emotional options and biggers. Because you were hard big enough to hold emotions, your mind should be big enough to consider both views, both ideas by certain over, I'm true, we're inviting shadd by binary to let's think about that, the dark side and bright side both the contribution the thing to that to enterprise. Okay, oh boy, that would

make you much more creative, more not petic. So the whole idea is that like quantum to attend them quantum quantum thinking, I can't both a lie in that quantum computer is a binary people cross the thinking system thinking. Uh So, the whole idea is that, well, our brains should be big enough to feel content, to feel comfortable to holding two opposing ideas and feel comfortable. Yeah, both

as a dover. That will dialogue. Oh, internal dialogue, the internal dialogue between your your heart, your mind, the internal dialogue between your soul and your body. So so that's how we grow. We grow through navigating a balance in compact system. Yes, is this is this your dual this is your dual system model of the good life that you're describing. Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean you Chinese that you are right, okay, one side one side, you're in travel. So so the taking part of that that

I don't agree. Then you have to look at things because when you look at things, when your heartpa not to hold full emotions all the pure, isn't you you let women and man open the love hate together? Now? Uh the teacher's student relationship of optionally love hate, So relationship emotion all pins that co two complimentary but opposite sides. Agreed. Yeah,

now he is pin difference. So we talk about you've got to involve in the that part your sister in the desertion is that to a self, it's not good psychology in the sixties your self, so psychology, so psychology only take you so far because by my friend dave back and say it's not an agency. They're also communion community. But also talk about the visuality tape because behind it to agency and communion the spirituality, it's a triparthic tripod

ri voble. The religious approach to human being is that him being has put as a spiritual dimension. And more importantly, we are not isolated indi vidios closing skins. We're all part of a human network. And now so therefore a psychology is some difulese I as the agent, as the self contained, the patient individual. That would result to what the guy called the years ago American psychologist called, uh,

the empty self. The empty self occur. It's because it's my focus themselves and ignore the community social values that I was so interested Uh, community value of community, a neighborhood, and spiritual value. Sometimes you know that Jordan people think call about religious instincts. I mean I caught that spiritual instinct you study culture. I said that, well, there said that they know God, they create God because in this

horrible world, because survive with our God. So I thought, none of my clients there from China, they don't believe God. I say, I try you, I say to help you with all the taculty techniques. I know you can't be that addiction. You better, you better ask God to help you. I said, you guys, pray I lived as a god because currently speaking I travel say yes, yes, still can a book that book the addiction or just have you better have it? And sorry I can't help you anymore.

M hmm. I want to pray for you. You know, prove yourself this question. I don't believe in God. That's that's gay. So a play isn't happen, A prayson't not happen? Wow it bro, that's magic. I said, Now I can help you. So therefore, when people discard spracial values to your creaking values, the whole Western civilization is in danger. There are no match to the least in civilization. The discipline, hard work, the creativity is the Western civilization is no mess,

no mass to the issue civilization without. What makes how strong is to do Christian value of a sign, intrinsic value to individal life. Every individual matters. But that is that is the biggest contribution, and also the Western value importance of about run greace, to fear forgiveness, forgiveness, to be feer, that's a big one. Forgiveness. With self forgiveness and no relationship, Okay, it's also a negative positive Guala say, with self forgiveness, there's no not part of about the

mandainity innership. You have to the past, see you everything. That's what I'm saying that you know in a person for you knows about to flourish. We have to factor in. That's the agency. But community mm hm, we have to so I have experience. I've been doing meet up group you know, trying to get tray quick community for years, the real estate community and speciality. This world is the universe is full of wonders and mysteries. Will you know what that matter is? Which you know what that hole is?

We can know what time? What can power make all the galaxies all the start move into They're all but elderly who know the hire Jum saying the young was thinking collect God or call and costume you call it. So when you're in trouble, the idea that as there's unknown superpower temple by health, it's such a consolation you have such hope. That's why I said, try to try to optimism. It's based on faith. Then all since failed you are a minor bury three three miles and the cround. Oh,

you are floating in the ocean full sharks. You need to rub a boat. You better pray, man, you better pray. Nobody can help you. That's why I'm saying, you can't go through life without God. It's yeah, man, I wasn't expecting a sermon, so let me ask you about me. I just sort of my last question for today because it's we're coming up on the hour. But I wanted I really think during this time, a lot of people feel a great lack of meaning, and you're You're really

the guy to talk to about this. You know, you're the person that talked about this. You created a meaning. Uh. Therapy is that right? A meaning centered form of therapy that was based on Victor Franco's work. Is that right? Integrative meaning therapy? Right? Usually puvot hum to ank me today? What I mean? I said, do my life meaning? You ahead? Mhm? Still that life's a good? Are you able to feel? Gosh?

You're able to learn? And everybody unique single language here meaning is to love life, learning, ruling, barning, food or process. That the logical that every person is on earth, they can learn and grow and bear fruit. That's meaning that meaning number one, Yes, you know everybody can meaning being alive do that. I agree, I agree, it's called I

love the idea of existential gratitude. No no, no, no, no no, yeah yeah oh not yet, not yet, Okay, too soon, this first lesson, I tell him share with them. But today you're able to I mean many people are shick, many people can walk. Now you're able to walk along, You're able to learn sens Wow, what a privilege, What a privilege? Sbout that if you you will have a just stimple let itself is a miracle that you are. You're part of the miracle that you know. Life is

social meaning. The second thing the stand say you're alive. No, not only you're able to create that'n call that creation value. H that the Brits marvelous machine. You can't the little kids throughout that picture. You will create music, create art. My little and that little sim is restent tape, able to create things the computer. That's amazing. Creativity is meaning the creative with your life, with ever, that is so much joy, It's so much richness. Creative meaning yes, like

yourself meaning creative meaning yeallo yellow. You know ya, you don't say that our love is love is horrible, so painful, painful, But creativity. You're able to creation with your life. That is, he said, if he wishes he had my face, but he couldn't be santipious, thinking he cannot believe in God. He had married, life has faced. But I said, but you have creativity, so we we we sho go around all that. But anyway, the creativity, but most you don't want to can crazy, but you're able to safer and

appreciate all the beauties around you. Look the sun sets, sunrise, and the leaves shint color over season. I smell the fresh air, and little children play and live in the beautiful music. Wow, we're living in a wonderful world. Yes, you do. More time we're able to put their hands against and over the shadow that way making plaint games that there's someone seemed to enjoy cont depressed as a

shame on you, shame you. You know how to appreciate all the thing You are ready hat the mindfulness have all over your eyes to say, look there there the lots of wonders around the world. Love is beautiful, you garpe can, It's beautiful. Mhm. The artists can make it a beautiful painting. Suffering can be beautiful. Is that what you're saying? Stopp being beautiful? Because it's cool to be sad. It's cruel to be sad. It is cool to be said,

that's cool, it's cool. It's cool. Started. I'm a stapil for better than a happy pick, I said long before, I'm reaching your life with depths and happy pick this shallow. No, we're going to be shallow. You put a meaningful life in a deep life. See it in a way to look at it, meaningful life. Don't don't. Don't go for a shallow life. You drink and be married. That's a shallow life. Be a staff. Join my club? Do you say tribe? Do you say join my tribe? Is that

what you said? It's join my cloud to be sad. Say it again, join join my clouds, join my crop, jo my club. Yeah, yeah, so I really like, I really like that idea of depths of meaning. You know, the nineteen eighty seven paper you wrote, uh with your colleague, Yeah, depths of me. But let me continue a subtle meaning that the creativity and experiential Okay, now longer day the defining attitude. That means courage if you if you can't

let's say you come to in camp. You can't work, you can't enjoy scene, but at least you're there to rebel against your faith. Yes, yes, you can hume my body, but I cannot describe my soul. Okay, I will walk into my gest chamber with pray my heart. When someone lips I die with dignity. I choose to die with dignity. With what on your lips? A son? I live, pray, preecing God, praise, praising, praising, I lived with him. You hire my might in my prayer, in my heart, I

praise the Lord, the preas the Lord. So I'm saying that he said that, and the all Elexander All. Alexander Sailier said that a human being a job to repel, rebel against fate, rebel against against all the deterministic forces, to repel against all the determining forces. You feel free have a human being that you fight him against, against the dark forces. Your alive. So therefore you enjoy. That's why Cisurface must be happy when he defied the gods.

Poof to thank you, I wrote down you all, I will continue to to enjoy nice, stronger, stronger, strong, I don't know, over and die. Yeah, define it's happiness. Wow, doctor Wong, please don't change, don't change. I have to thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, but I also want you to know that I appreciate you. I don't I don't ignore you. So I appreciate you too. You have you have the mass slow Jr. I love it. Well. I just really real honor having all my podcast today. Yes,

we're on the same page. We work hard, threw together all the sane, well human beings exactly. Yeah. So to those labels, do y labels? Do you y? I agree? Yeah, So I don't much comes out your pop psychology. I'm dealing with your extential issues, but also the post I believe in a better future. Do not believe the piven change? Yeah? Yeah, and that's that's I think, very much in line with the humanistic psychologists. And they're they're they're they were deeply

influenced by the existential phosphors. Okay, so to you again, Yes, thank you, doctor Waference see at the conference. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react, in some way to something you heard. I encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, if you'd prefer a completely ad free experience, you can

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