Oren Jay Sofer || A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication

meditation and communication nationally. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a member of the Spirit Rock Teachers Council. He's also a certified Trainer of Nonviolent Communication, a somatic experiencing practitioner for healing trauma, and he is the senior program developer at Mindful Schools. So is the author of the book Say what You Mean, a Mindful Approach to non Violent Communication or I'm so great to shout with you today. Hey, thanks for having

me Scott. It's my pleasure already and I will try to be as mindful as possible in this conversation. Usually what that means for me is that I slow down talking a little bit. So listeners of the podcast may wonder why Scott breck Hoffman is a little bit slower and has talked tonight right on. Yeah, slowing down can

be a very helpful tool for mindfulness in communication. When we get in conversation, you know, the tendency is to focus all of our attention out there on the other person, and then we lose the sense of, well, what's actually happening here with me? And if we're not actually present, it's more difficult to have a meaningful conversation, let alone when there's any kind of conflict or tension. Yeah, I agree with that a lot. Well, I don't imagine there'll

be too much conflict or tension. It's not like I'm going to take the stance like no, I think we should have more violent communication in the world today. But it'd be nice to go through some of your nuanced approach to a non violent communication you have. What's really quite unique about this book of yours is that you integrate Marshall Rosenberg's system of non violent communication with ancient Buddha wisdom. Could you start off by telling you a

little bit about Marshall Rosenberg's system. I actually haven't heard of it. I'm sorry. It's so recognized and I haven't heard of it, so please yeah, sure, absolutely so. Marshall Rosenberg grew in Detroit in the forties and he lived through the race riots that happened there, and I think it was forty three or forty four, and there were a few dozen people who were killed just within a

couple blocks of his house. And this had a really strong impact on him, like as a young boy recognizing like, wow, you know, there are people in this world who might want to do violence to you because of the color of your skin. And then a little while later, as he was growing up, he and his father experienced a lot of anti Semitism and threats to their physical safety. And so then he had another realization, you know, Okay, people might want to hurt me because of my last name.

And so this made a really deep impression on him and left him with a very strong question of what makes the difference between one person in a situation when their needs aren't met, when they're faced with difficulties and challenges, that person will resort to violence, and another person in a similar situation somehow has the capacity to stay connected to the sense of shared humanity or compassion, or some deeper value that doesn't make violence seem like a viable strategy.

And so what he found was that the way in which we think and the way in which we speak, which is largely due to the socialization process, has great bearing on whether or not we see violence as a viable strategy. And so he studied with folks like Carl Rogers,

founder of humanistic psychology. Many folks on your podcast probably familiar with him and his work, and through his own research his study with Rogers developed this system a process both of awareness inside ourselfs and communication with others that makes it easier to stay connected to our deeper values

and to one another's. And he called it nonviolent communication specifically to place it within the tradition of Gandhian and King He and nonviolence because he saw the connection between the ways in which we think, perceive, and speak and the way our society is structured and the social systems in our world, and really saw it not only as a tool for interpersonal communication or personal healing, but also

for social change. So non violent communication itself is it's a process to help create the kind of connection and meaning that we want in our lives with ourselves, with others in our communities. And it's really focused on how do we speak in a way that will get our deeper meaning. I mean, you could say, like our heart or what's most important to us across to others in

a way that they can hear. And how do we learn to listen to other people in a way that we can understand what they're saying, regardless of how they're speaking to us, whether they're blaming us or judging us, that we can actually hear something more fundamental than the words or the concepts that they're using. So interesting. I

wonder how much he influenced Rogers. And I mean obviously Rogers influenced him, but I wonder how much you inforced Rogers This notion of unconditional positive regard that was central to rogers approach. Does that have a name or like a shade in this particular framework. Absolutely, And I think that one of the things that's so powerful about nonviolent communication is the training in the framework that really gives some traction to like, well, how do we do that,

you know, how do we maintain unconditional positive regard? And so the core of nonviolent communication is founded on some of Mendel's work and Maslow's work on the hierarchy of needs and really understanding the basic premise of humanistic psychology, which you know, I'm sure you're familiar with, so just to kind of name it for your listeners, which is that human beings do stuff. We're motivated by deeper needs.

We do stuff because there's something that's important to us, and that all of our actions and behaviors can be understood as an attempt, successful or unsuccessful, conscious or unconscious, and attempt to meet some deeper need, and that these needs are shared, that they're on some level more universal, and so in terms of unconditional positive regard, when we can see and connect with someone on the level of their deeper needs, that allows us to see them in

a positive light. The way that Marshall used to talk about it, he had a very kind of lighthearted way of speaking about these things, is they actually would sing a song called see Me Beautiful, and he would kind of joke about, you know, whenever someone's saying anything, in some sense, they're asking us to see, to see this

part of them, to see what's truest about them. And so one of the understandings here is that you know, all of our judgments are blame, even violence, are these kind of counterproductive and in some ways tragic expressions of our unmet needs. You know, Yeah, it's profound when we really step back and look at it, and it shows up in like, in the most simple and innocuous ways

in our day to day life. You know, Like one of the examples that that I give a lot when I teach that a lot of people can relate to. It's like, Okay, you live with somebody and they're a messier than you are. You know, they don't keep things as clean as you do. Okay, how do we see them? Right, we see them. They're messy, They're a slob. You're inconsiderate if the tables are turned, and like you like things neater than I do. You know, I like things a

little bit more loose around the edges. Now you become controlling, obsessive, a neat freak, right anal So what happens is that whatever's going on for me then gets projected out there onto you my unmet needs, whether it's for relaxation and you know, kind of the space just being chill, or having some more like order and cleanliness and beauty. Those unmet needs become about something wrong with you, and I blame you. Our minds are conditioned to kind of think

in that way. And then if we step back from it and think about all right, now, if I want you to do something different for me right, whether it's clean up the kitchen or in an intimate relationship, you know, spend more time with me, or in a work relationship, give me more information about the project. If I want you to help me out in some way. How useful of a strategy is it to tell you all the things that are wrong with you and blame you. But

that's the way our minds work. That's the way we've been socialized to think and speak when our needs aren't met.

So we can actually start to dial that back and become aware of our experience and the messages of others are sending us in this different way by seeing things through the lens of human needs, and that really helps us to access this sense of unconditional positive regard because we can see the humanity of another person, like, oh, this person's really just longing for some more consideration or to be included or you know, they want some more trust. I love that you said a lot of really juicy

things there. You know, as a distinguished between deficiency motivation and growth motivation, it seems like it's not a healthy relationships are healthiest when both are having this growth orientation. But when you kind of enter relationship with the hope that that person is going to fulfill some deficiency in you or some a big hole in your heart, right,

you know, that kind of sets you up for disappointment. Probably, Yeah, And I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because this points to something that's like really at the heart of these tools, and it's one of the things that's the hardest to teach in some ways, because it's a fairly subtle, subtle point, you know, which is that it's our relationship

with these deeper needs or values that matters. And whether we're coming at it from that sense of lack and deficiency, like I don't have enough of this and I need it and I have to have it, there gets this like quality of desperation to it versus the sense that sense of growth, where we're we're approaching it from a place inside of really recognizing the value, the joy, the beauty almost of like, yeah, this is just a part of being human, and it's in me and it's in you,

and it's something that we can enjoy and experience together if we're able to hear each other and collaborate. There's more I want to say about that, but I just want to want to pause there and see if you want to add anything. No, that's good. Why don't you continue that threat? Okay, okay, sure. So. So the first thing is, you know, we're throwing around this word need, and that word carries a lot of cultural baggage, particularly in the West, and so it's important to clarify that

what do we mean by that. It doesn't mean being needy, doesn't mean being selfish, doesn't mean being dependent. What it points to is the reality that we're social creatures and we survive interdependently. We've got certain physiological needs that's really obvious to see food, air, water, But we have relational needs, you know, as human beings. That's what you focus on in your book. Yeah, yeah, looking at the whole range.

You know, a lot of it's about relationship, but we have needs for understanding, for empathy, for connection, for play, for things like that. And then we have what we could call higher needs. I think Maslow called them needs

for self actualization. Some people call them spiritual needs. But there's that sense that there's something more to us as human beings than our material reality and the particular time and place period of history in which we're born, that there is something transpersonal, that there's some sense of deeper meaning or purpose or fulfillment in life. We have this sense of some higher needs and that all of those matter.

So needs are these deeper values. One of the phrases I like to use about them is that it's what matters to us, and this is why we do stuff. It's what motivates us in life. And the relational needs and the higher needs that we have. We can only go so long without those needs being meant to before something starts to get damaged inside. We need them, you know, like human beings need to be seen and understood, just as much as we need food and water. The damage

just gets further delayed in time, you know. Yeah, So the question is how do we relate to these to these needs. And that sense of deficiency is where there's this sense of like I get really identified with it, and there's this quality of almost a desperation or an obsessiveness quality of demand. I have to have this. I don't have enough of it, and I need it. That's

a very difficult place to engage from in relationship and conversation. Like, whenever we've got that energy of demand present, it makes it really hard for other people to have space for us because it's going to push their autonomy. Buttons, it's like, now, if you're coming at me with that energy, I got to take care of myself and make sure that my autonomy is in check, because that's also really important to me.

So one of the key shifts is not only first and this is a huge step, but just being aware of my own needs what actually matters to me, starting to be aware of others' needs, and then being in that process and that tension of how do we hold

both together. A lot of our conditioning growing up is that we learn, you know, whenever there's a different, when there's a difference or a conflict, a lot of the lessons that we see as a child and around us are well, the person with more power is going to win, and one person's gonna get what they want, and one person's gonna end up with a short stick, and I know which side, I know which end I want to be on, So I'm going to do everything I can

to kind of manipulate and control and dominate the situation, or I get conditioned the other way where I'm just not even going to try, So I'm going to just give it a give up to try to keep the peace. So we get all these patterns around it, and this whole process is one of realizing that there's another possibility.

And I think we've all had experiences like that where we have some difference or conflict with somebody and we're able to come out the other side stronger, closer, We find a new level of connection or meaning in the relationship, and that opens the possibility recognizing instead of it being either or, as is saying conflict resolution circle, there's the both and like, oh there's another way here, Like I

can tend to both my needs and yours. To be able to do that, we have to explore and transform our relationship with our needs and values from that quality of deficiency or not enough in lack to one of recognizing, you know, this is something that has value and worth to it, regardless of whether or not it's satisfied in the way I want. Yeah, can you unpack this notion of relational awareness a bit more? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So. Mindfulness and awareness practice usually we think about as being

aware of my own experience, you know. So a lot of contemplative practice is focused on stabilizing attention with what we call a primary object, like the breath, body, sensations, starting to open to emotions, thoughts, I'm tracking the flow of my moment to moment experience, right. So obviously life is more than just what's happening here. There's this whole world out there. So the human organism is by definition relational.

We're continually in relationship with our environment. So when we're in balance, when we're not under threat, our natural state is to be relaxed and alert, to be oriented to our environment and connected and aware of what's going on around us. So this sense of I can be aware of myself, I can be aware of my surroundings, and I can experience the relationship between them. That the experience

of being alive is one of mutuality. That I am affected by the world around me, the wind blows, you know, the rainfalls, that I feel something and I affect the world around me, I can touch things, I can and move things that we have some influence over our environment.

And so relational awareness is actually practicing. How do we enhance that capacity so that and use it to our advantage, so that within a conversation, instead of the tendency to become consumed with my own experience and be self centered or give up abandon myself and be totally focused on you, there's this capacity on the level of my consciousness to include both of us and start to experience that sense

of connection. And so that's you know, we talk about empathy or unconditional positive regard, that's an experience of relational awareness. To have unconditional positive regard means that I see you, I recognize your dignity or humanity, your autonomy, and I'm still connected to myself. I'm here with you. There's this experience right of meeting. That's you know, what Boober talked about, the sense of the all real living is meeting that

there is an experience of two of us together. And what's fascinating to me, Scott about this is, you know, in terms of like the contemplative practice, this is really the nature of consciousness. If we look at our experience of the human mind. It's a relational experience. Awareness is always awareness of something. So right now, as we sit here and talk and see one another and listen to

one another, you know, we're each knowing this experience. So there's the sense of what's being seen, and there's the sense of seeing, there's a sense of what there's what's being heard, and there's a sense of hearing. That's relationship. So the mind itself is an experience of a relationship happening. And the more awareness we bring to that process, the more flexibility, the more choice, the more more agility we

have in life. It's one of the things that I'm a little self conscious because I'm talking a lot, and I love to talk about this stuff, so I want to leave them. But if I wasn't listening, then I wouldn't be following your the path you put forward in your book. Okay, if I add one more thing here,

and then of course, okay, great. You know, one of the things that I like to trip out on and that I talk about a lot, is this kind of one of those insights into the blazingly obvious that we all communicate pretty much all day long in every area of our life even when we're alone, right if it's not, if we're not you know, texting someone or engaging on social media, even when we're alone with our thoughts, there's still this kind of inner dialogue happening. So we're doing

it all day long, every context of our life. It's one of the main factors that determines our success professionally, the health and quality of our relationships at home with friends. And yet most of us receive zero training in it, you know, zero explicit training. The trick, the kind of cruel trick, is that we all get a whole lot of training in communication. It's just it's just unconscious. We were trained by our family, by our schools, by the media, by our society. Then we pick up a lot of

unhealthy habits. So if we're looking for change and growth in our life, like one of the primary nexus is for that, Like if we make if we start to make changes in our communication, that's going to affect everything because it's how we're interfacing with the world for the most part. So it's a super powerful lever for creating

positive change personally, professionally, socially. I really like that, Uh, Like you tie communication to all the needs so you can kind of use it in the healthiest way to satisfy your needs in set to satisfy needs in the healthiest way in your framework. Leading with presence or relational awareness is really just the first step, right, Can we talk about kind of where you're the place that you

come from also matters. Yeah. Yeah, So that sense of that sense of presence or be really being here and embodied, that's the foundation, obviously, because if we're not here, if we're not present, very difficult to understand anything, very difficult to have a meaningful conversation. So, you know, whenever I teach, I start off usually having people reflect on why are you here? You know, plenty of other things you could be doing right now, Why did you choose to come

here today? And I ask people to really reflect on it and think what's important to you? Why did you come here? And people say the most beautiful things. You know, I want more harmony in my life. I want more clarity, I want more connection, I want more peace, you know, I want to be closer to the people in my life. I want to be more effective. We know what we want, know what those needs are. The question is how how how do we create the conditions in our life to

start to realize those deeper intentions. And so that sense of mindfulness and presence is the first step. It gets us on the map. What you're pointing to is okay, once we're there, once we're in the ballpark, are we headed in the right direction where we pointed? So the next main training and step that I teach with communication is about our intention, which is, as you said, where we're coming from. So the intention is probably the single

most powerful and transformative ingredient in dialogue. Why as we were chatting before we started, as you were saying, you know, there's so much more to communication than just the words. Right. The figures range, but most social scientists agree that like seventy five percent or more of our communications nonverbal. Right. It's in the tone of voice, it's in the facial expression,

it's in our body gestures. It's in intangible things, right, like that gut sense interoception, how we actually in our nerves start to pick up and feel information from the other person. So I say this over and over and over again when I teach and work with people. Communications not about what we say, It's about where we're coming from. And the quality of understanding and connection that we're able

to create. So what does intention have to do with this, Well, our intention where we're coming from, that's what actually starts to animate our body language, our facial expression, our tone of voice. And when all those nonverbal cues don't match the words, which do we trust? Right? We trust what our body's picking up. We trust the tone of voice and the gesture more than someone's words. So you can say something in you know, the kind of prettiest, most

fancy perfect communic way. If your intention is off, if you're really just trying to pull one over on somebody or manipulate them or get ahead, they're going to feel it.

They're gonna feel it. So that's actually where the transformation has to happen and why intention is so powerful, because if we do nothing else in our communication but try to cultivate a more sincere and genuine intention to understand the other person and create an experience of mutual respect and understanding, that can change the whole trajectory of a dialogue,

let alone a relationship. So yeah, completely, completely, So, I mean, you know, the level of divisiveness and ill will and hostility that's exhibited in the public discourse today, you know, like where's the sense of mutual respect, desire for understanding, collaboration, willingness to work together to honor the deeper values or concerns that are being represented. So the key here again is that what mindfulness does is it allows us to start to be aware of those impulses and trajectories that

are happening, Like where am I coming from? What is my intention here? You know? How much am I just trying to be right or prove my point or get my way? And is that ultimately going to give me

what I want? You know, one of the things that you know, Marshall Rosenberg used to talk about passed away a few years ago, always made the point that, you know, those strategies of blame, judgment, manipulation, being right, proving my point, they work to a certain extent, right, Like, we can produce results in those ways, but they come at a cost. Every time I use my power or I use one of those methods to get someone to do what I want, it comes at a cost in the quality of our relationship,

the quality of trust or goodwill. In professional settings, you know, when supervisors use fear, punishment, even reward to a certain extent to motivate their teams. The quality the work goes down because people aren't connected to the value. You know, what one of our other deepest needs as human beings is the need to contribute in a meaningful way. You know, That's why we want to do stuff, not because we're afraid we're going to get canned or shamed or you know,

ostracized if we don't do a good job. And so intention is a key factor there Where am I coming from? So we can start to be aware of those intentions, the default habitual intentions we have, and we can start to transition to change them. And what's so powerful about intention is that the way our mind works where intention directs where we look. You know, when a thief looks at a house, all they see are the windows and

the doors and the locks. When an architect looks at a house, all they see is the construction and the how it was built and what style it was made in. So our intention, how we're looking and what we want and where we're looking from a starts to shape our experience. So if my intention is to get what I want, then everyone around me becomes an object that I have to manipulate or an obstacle. That's a very lonely and

kind of adversarial world to live in. If my intention becomes to understand or to experience the deep satisfaction that can come in life through participating in the flow of give and take, If my intention is to participate with life and be in relationship, I start to view things differently. I start to come back to Rogers again, you know, I start to be able to see other human beings not as objects but as subjects. I see their innate value.

What is you know, this just really reminds me of the eye vow relationship as well, absolutely versus it, which is what it sounds like. That's what you're contrasting there, you know that Martin Buber's work. Yeah, so much of this is connected and people have been saying this throughout the ages. Like you said, you integrate ancient wisdom with the Rosenberg perspective, So it's got to be right at this point, it's like it's been tried and tested, Yeah,

for millennium. Yeah, so that is the second stage, coming from curiosity and care. And then let's talk about this third stage of focusing on what matters in your opinion what matters, like, can we objectively say that there are certain things that matter more than others? Thank you. Yeah,

it's a great, great question. And what you're referring to their Scott is kind of the structure that I use to teach communication in the book and when I'm out doing workshops and trainings, which is these these three steps and trainings of leading with presence showing up coming from curiosity and care, this kind of default, having a default intention to understand and stay connected to our heart. And then the third step of training our attention to focus

on what matters. So where we place our attention is super important. You know. The more we place our attention on our judgments, evaluations, fault finding the things we don't like, that starts to shape our reality. It's all we see, and that makes it very difficult to collaborate or work together. Whereas I'm just going to let these sirens go by, thank you. Okay, it sounds like something not good is happening, though, Yeah, I hope that is. Okay. I hope so too. Yeah. Yeah.

In a lot of ways, that's a lot more important than this conversation to those people. Ded Yeah, someone's life someone's life is changing very radically. Yeah, more so the smums than this conversation. Yeah, which is yeah good, I don't get it wrong of it. Yeah yeah, yeah, So what that's that's kind of like right back to the

question you asked of what matters? What matters? And I think that just even holding that question in mind, I think starts to shift our perspective in a conversation of like, well, what's actually important here? You know, what's this really? What's this really about? For me? And a lot of times

we might not even be aware of that. And this is so the at the core, what we're trying to do here, at the most fundamental level, is we're trying to train ourselves to be aware of the human needs, the deeper values or objectives that are at play, because that's where the transfertion really happens. That's where we find that what we have in common out weighs our differences. That's where we find also on a personal level, more choice,

more clarity and freedom about flexibility. Yeah exactly. And if I could just digress for a moment into just a short story here to illustrate that that flexibility and choice, So the difference when we identify our needs. The key difference here is that our strategies are the things that we want. The ideas that we have about meeting our needs, whether it's you know, reading a book or going out for a drink or taking a walk in the park, you know, those are those are things that we do

to meet certain needs. So one guy was doing one of these workshops and heard these ideas about all right, human beings are motivated by deeper desires to meet their needs, and all actions and strategy, all actions and behaviors are stress to meet some deeper need. All right. Fine, So he's on his way home, He's driving in the car, reaches for a cigarette and he pauses. He says, all right, well,

let's see if this stuff really works, you know. All right, if this is true, then I'm trying to meet some need by smoking a cigarette. Well that's okay. Well what are my needs? What do I want here? And so I thought of it. I said, well, you know, I just don't want to relax. I want to take a break. I want to I want to take my mind off things. Yeah, he thought of I said, jeez, I've got better ways of relaxing and taking my mind off things and filling

my lungs with tar. He stopped smoking. So when we're when we're when we're not aware, he changed the bark. Say again, he changed the bark, smoking bark instead of tar. That was right, right, So, when we're not aware of what our needs are, we're just driven by either habit or fixation on the strategies. When we're aware of what actually matters to us, got a lot more flexibility and choice. So what matters one a perspect of it is identifying

this deeper level of our needs. But it also means that we're developing a capacity in a relationship, in conversation that's really attuned and flexible to okay in this moment, because conversation is dynamic, it's always changing, it's not a straight line. In this moment right now, what's needed, what's most important, and sometimes what's needed is the other person wants to be heard. We need to offer some understanding.

You know, that can be really transformative to just listen and offer some understanding for their experience, to give someone that relief of feeling heard. Sometimes what's most important is to speak up and be authentic and you know, say our piece, like listen, like this is really important. I really need you to hear this. It's it matters for me that you understand the impact this had on me. And then within that, this is where the training of

the process of nonviolent communication comes in. We can learn learn to train our attention to identify these different components of our experience as human beings that tend to be more reliable ways of building understanding and connection. So we can train our attention to focus on what in non violent communication we call observations, which is, rather than our interpretations and stories and judgments about what happened. You don't care about me, or you know, you're just ignoring me,

or you blew me off. Okay, well that's your experience, that's your interpretation, but what actually happened. You know, if you're going to talk to this person about that and you start off there, they're probably going to get defensive and be like, that was not what happened. But if you say, you know, like, look, I called you last week and I haven't heard from you since. Oh, that's an observation. There's nothing to argue with there. That's what happened.

So we can train ourselves to notice observations. We can train ourselves. Sometimes what matters are the emotions. It's a lot of life energy in our feelings. Have we developed the capacity not only to be aware of our emotions, but to manage and tolerate their intensity, to be able to witness and hear other people's emotional experience without freaking out or getting really uncomfortable. It's just an emotion, you know, So what happened, how we feel about it? Why? Which

is the needs? What matters? And this is this is a key understanding here, that we feel things because there's something that matters to us, That our emotions are signals that point to our values, or other people's emotions are signals that point to their values. And then the fourth component is where do we go from here? Like what's next? What would actually be helpful? And this is about learning to make requests, learning to move a conversation forward to

one step at a time. Nice. I really like in your book how you talk about the do over? You know that, like how often do we as adults do the do over? And I just love that, Like can you talk a little about that because you often see, like you know, a couple will fight and they'll be like that's it we're getting divorced. It's like they don't ever say like they don't have to wake up the ignoring. How often do couples wake up the nextmore? Let's do over? Yeah,

I am a huge fan of a doo. I mean, I don't know about you, but you know, when I was a kid, we used to play ball out in the streets, and you know, and anytime it was like, once the disagreement got to a certain point, it was just like someone would just call out, do over, right, and it's just like yeah, and it's just like okay, like let's just just start again. And it's almost never

too late to do a do over. And that might be in the in the process of the conversation itself, where all of a sudden, for whatever reason, like mindfulness returns and we realize, okay, this is not going well, this is not where how I intended for things to be. I'm getting really like snarky here, and we could just own it, just step up to the plate, be like all right, hold on, I'm sorry, I want to this is not where I want to be coming. I really had an intention to try to make some peace here

and hear each other. Can we start over. What if they don't want it? What if they say no? What if they ghost? Do they stop it responding to your messages? Right, yeah, you're like, look, I like I love you, Like like, let's do a do over and give me another chance. And but you never hear from them ever again. Like what do you do? Then? Just cry yourself to sleep every night hopefully not but stay in minds. Yeah, it's tragic how common that sense of disconnecting of just cutting

off contact is and it's super painful. I just want to like, I'll answer your question. I have strategies, definitely, and like I want to just make some space and leave a moment for the reality that like that it

hurts a lot when that happens. And there's something I use the word tragic to me, there's something tragic about it because we are it seems to me to stimulate this like very like deep ancient kind of mechanism around belonging to the tribe, right, Like I'm going to be excommunicated, you know, I have been shut out, And so I think it's a reflection of how little learning we have around how to deal with conflict and the lack of

understanding that conflict is where we discover intimacy. It's where we actually learn to see each other, is through our differences, and it's so rare to actually start to use conflict as an opportunity to connect and to learn. And when we don't do that, when we avoid conflict, when we cut off, not only do we miss the opportunity to deepen a relationship or to learn or to grow, but even deeper than that, I think that we miss one of the most valuable opportunities in life, which is the

chance to learn how to make peace. Every time we blow someone off, we miss the opportunity to learn how to stop being at war in ourself with others, and and that translates outward into the lack of ability to to get along that we see around the planet. So what do we do? What do we do when someone stops being in touch? Well, what what's happened is, in essence,

the silence has become their only message. So you could say that in some sense there's still a communication there, but it's just the silence that's their message to us. And so I think that there are different things that I recommend, and I do talk about this in the book. You know, each there's a I do Q and a's in the book and it's one of the questions that comes up. And so there I think there's two or three options. So one option is reaching out and getting

support from someone else, you know. So one of the things that's not necessarily I mean maybe eventually, but that's called what's what do they call that? The rebound? Yeah, is that your advice find a rebound quickly, not at all, And that usually doesn't solve the problem. In fact, that

usually perpetuates and recreates it. No, find a friend, find a mentor find an elder, find somebody who has that capacity to offer understanding to you and express your pain to them and say, look, you know, I'm really just hurting about this, and it would be really helpful if you just have some space to listen and just you know, kind of kind of hear me, that would be really meaningful and invite them into that space. And so that

can bring some healing in some relief. It's one of the things that I find so powerful about being alive is that the past is still present in the sense that when our memories arise, we're experiencing them here and now, and even people who have who have died, who have

passed away. If we have unfinished business with them, it doesn't mean that we can't resolve it, that that the psyche can still come to a state of resolution, wholeness, integration around relationships, conflicts with people who are long gone internally in relationship to our own experience. So, you know, how do we resolve a conflict with someone who's passed away? You know, I think it is possible. I've seen it. I've seen it in myself, I've seen it in others.

And so one step is to reach out to someone and get support. But the next step is to do the healing work inside ourself, to work with Number one mourning. M Oh, you are mourning. So the sense of regret, sadness around maybe things that we've done or said that we wish we had done differently, that's one. Number two to turn towards forgiveness. Forgiveness happens on its own time schedule. It's not something we can force ourselves to do. It's

a natural process that takes time. But forgiveness is not about absolving another for their harmful actions. It's about freeing our own heart from resentment. It's something we do for ourself so we can work to mourn and to forgive in our own heart and to come to a place of peace and self compassion. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the second.

The third, you know, if the person is still on the planet, if they are still alive, giving them space, right, because usually when there's that cutting off, the person's in pain. You know, they're probably angry too, but underneath that there's pain. There's so much pain that what they're saying in some sense is I am in so much pain that it's

too painful to even be in touch with you. Or this has been so hard for me that I no longer am willing to take the energy to put into our relationship or conversation because I don't have any trust or faith that that's going to ultimately be contributing to me. Right, those are some of the messages that they might be sending.

So acknowledging that giving some space and then extending the possibility of sending a message with a very open invitation, so some sense of taking responsibility for our part, you know, being able to offer that to open the door, like, hey, I know I did and said some things that were really messed up or you know, hurtful. I feel deep regret about that. If there's any way you might be open to being in touch and trying to patch things up,

it would be really meaningful for me. I'd love to offer some understanding for your experience and then we have to let go. Then we have then the balls in their court, you know. But I think sending a message like that, where we're expressing something sincere from our heart and giving the invitation to say, like, look, you know, I want to make this right if you've got the space for it. It sounds like vulnerability is part and perceel of this process. Then it is. It is, and

you know it's it's again. It's something that I teach a lot about, which is vulnerability. There's a lot of strength and vulnerability. It takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable, and it means that we're not afraid. You know, when we're willing to be vulnerable, things don't rattle us as much because it's when we're trying to protect against our exactly that armor and protection is actually painful and

a little bit frightening. And that doesn't mean that we're going to be really vulnerable and open with everyone we have to use discernment and wisdom about you know what we share with it. I'm warning that lesson. I'm vulnerable to everyone, even my all my guests as well. You did not do that so much. But anyway, look, how can people who are listening to this learn more tools to have this kind of very healthy form of communication. Yeah? Sure, So my website is a great resource. I've got a

ton of articles on there, talks and guided meditations. It's orangejsofur dot com. The other great resource is if folks want to learn more or stay in touch, I share a free article, meditation or online event in my newsletter once or twice a month and comes with six free guided meditations and an ebook and stuff like that. So yeah, so anyone who wants to stay in touch can can sign up for that just by text message. You just

text the word guided like a guided meditation. If they text the word guided to four four two two two, it'll walk you through all the steps and the free gifts and some resources from me once or twice a month. Well that's great, that's really exciting. So I want to thank you for this really interesting conversation, very lucidating conversation, and I want to end with a quote that I really like for your book, Finding Your Voice, Learning how to say what you mean and how to listen deeply.

This is one of the most rewarding journeys you can take. Thanks for telling all of our listeners about this journey today. Thanks so much, Scott, Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion at thus Psychology podcast dot com. That's the Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a rating

and review of the Psychology Podcast on iTunes. Thanks for being such a great supporter of the podcast, and tune in next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.